Come on Kim, even the incoming SoD says we are losing. It is over, and it is time to leave, thanks for coming, turn-out the lights.

Is quitting, losing?

I guess it has much the same outcome and repercussions, but the causes are different.

I guess actually losing can be honerable if you gave it your all. Quitting isn't no matter what.

If we are losing BarneyG2000, would you get behind an effort to win it? Because it can be won.

Barney, he did not say we are losing, he said we are not winning. He elaborated, stating that it was a situation where we're neither losing nor winning, and a change is in order to facilitate victory.

Barney, you lied.

Apologize.

Now.

Unbelievable. We have the equivalent of a 28 point lead in the 4th quarter with 10 minutes to go. Our opponent makes a few first downs and all the idiot armchair quarterbacks come out of the woodwork screaming that we're "losing"; and we ought to just end the game now.

Pathetic, spinless worms, the lot of you who think we're losing. A few guerrila tactics and you're ready to throw in the towel. Absolutely pathetic.

Something cool that Xerox is doing,

If you go to this web site, www.LetsSayThanks.com you can pick out a thank you card and Xerox will print it and it will be sent to a soldier that is currently serving in Iraq. You can't pick out who gets it, but it will go to some member of the armed services.

How AMAZING it would be if we could get everyone we know to send one!!!

If you aren't doing anything else for the troops, at least take the time to send one of these cards.

In case I wasn't clear...I'm speaking to BarneyG2000 and our now worthless SoD for claiming that we're "losing". Guess the media tactic of repeating a lie for 5 years until people believed it worked...

...and my apologies for misspelling spineless...

Tom, why are YOU perpetuating the lie that he said we were losing? Or are you no better than BarneyG2000?

Kim

The problem with "total victory" is that no one can seem to articulate exactly what the conditions of that might look like. If it means, say, only one car bomb a month in Bagdhad then it might be 20 years before we achieve "total victory".

The problem is also that we are no longer fighting a war in Iraq. It is a police action in an extremely bad neighborhood. It is all up to the Iraqis now and no amount of political maneuvering by the US will make them stop killing each other, and as collateral damage our troops, until THEY decide to.

Either way, our troops have been set up for failure by their leaders for their lack of clarity on the scope of the mission and more of them will continue to die while babysitting Iraqis who would rather blow each other up than embrace the democracy that Americans have paid for in blood and treasure.

Betting on the Iraqis to lead the way in reshaping the region has turned out to be our biggest mistake, not troop levels.

Kim

The problem with "total victory" is that no one can seem to articulate exactly what the conditions of that might look like. If it means, say, only one car bomb a month in Bagdhad then it might be 20 years before we achieve "total victory".

The problem is also that we are no longer fighting a war in Iraq. It is a police action in an extremely bad neighborhood. It is all up to the Iraqis now and no amount of political maneuvering by the US will make them stop killing each other, and as collateral damage our troops, until THEY decide to.

Either way, our troops have been set up for failure by their leaders for their lack of clarity on the scope of the mission and more of them will continue to die while babysitting Iraqis who would rather blow each other up than embrace the democracy that Americans have paid for in blood and treasure.

Betting on the Iraqis to lead the way in reshaping the region has turned out to be our biggest mistake, not troop levels.

To me, saying 'we're not winning' is the same as saying we're losing. His was a terrible choice of words. WE ALREADY WON.

We're trying to help a fledgling government get on it's feet, and the entire world is trying to undermine it. The last thing we need is for a new SoD to provide more fodder for the people trying to undermine it.

Did you, or did you not see the headlines this week about his statement? Perception in a nation with a short-attention span is everything.

Tom, this is something like arguing with an athiest about the existence of God. If you begin any sentence with, "Let's just suppose there is no God..." you've lost the debate.

Now, the incoming SoD did indeed seem to echo the "quagmire" meme to some degree, but the subsequent questions and his answers indicated that he deems the situation far from hopeless.

I personally think that we should adopt the "provocation is met with crushing retaliation" ideology of warfare, accepting that war is truly nasty, barbaric, and cruel, and should be waged in such a way as to be supremely short and effective. What we're doing is akin to executing a death-row inmate by starvation; in essence making an unpleasant but necessary task unnecessarly inhumane.

Rob, there's never been any waffling on "total victory" idea. That will be achieved when an Iraqi democracy is established and has the ability to sustain itself. I don't think anyone thought that would be an overnight development, and although our attitude towards warfare (see my above paragraph) has made this task more arduous than necessary, it is by no means an impossible feat. Even a weak (but stable) democracy set up in Iraq will break the backs of the Islamofascists and of the regimes who choose to side with them.

Bo, ListKeeper:

You'll have to forgive me. This is my "I'm mad as hell and not going to take it anymore!" moment.

My point is, I'm tired of people drinking the 'we're losing' kool-aid. Hence, my analogy to the football game.

Barneygoogle- French for "pucker puss" (lee lee).

We have not lost anything. The left ties our hands behind our backs militarily and then claims "we've lost". Yes we have been in Iraq longer than it took us to defeat Nazi Germany. The difference is that we allowed our military to do what was necessary to win in WWII. The only way to win this war is with force. Anything else is seen by America's enemy's as weakness. Just putting this report out has further emboldened them! We should never quit! We should keep fighting until they do!

P.S.: I'm 41 years old. If all goes well, I will be sworn into the Army reserve on Monday. That's how much I believe in what we are doing.

Bo,

The problem with your definition is that it is way too abstract. I'm asking "what would that look like". Iraq has a democracy. Stability is the problem. The Iraqis could have a stable democracy if they wanted one, all they have to do is stop killing each other. Not to discount the other factors like Al Quada's instigations of violence, stability is something Iraqis must choose and it likely cannot be imposed by them by a larger American military presence. I also feel the prospects of that stability are very slim now, as Iraqis, especially their leadership, are proving themselves not the most strong, focused, and peace loving people of the world. Nor have they proven themselves repelled by, but rather sympathetic to, the extremism of their neighbors, making me doubt that even with stability will they be the bulwark against Iran and Syria that we'd hoped.

So, with things the way they are, I ask you, would you send your child there to potentially die? I feel that is a reasonable measure of whether one feels a war is worth continuing to fight or not. I would not, as I no longer feel that a free Iraqi is worth a dead American.

"If we are losing BarneyG2000, would you get behind an effort to win it? Because it can be won."

Posted by: VagaBond at December 6, 2006 09:39 AM

Now why would he do that? Our defeat has been the Left/Dem/BDSer goal all along.

The elected Dems overwhelmingly 'supported' the war at the beginning only because of craven, calculated political reasons. (They didn't want to appear weak and unpatriotic to the voters.)

Since then it's been a non-stop assault of defeatism and now out-and-out opposition to our war effort. The MSM/Dems have highlighted everything bad and mostly ignored everything good that happens over there. They even make fake stories up to make it look worse than it is.

When this war started, did these people want the American effort to succeed? Did they support our efforts all along? No. It's taken a few years but now they are finally saying publically what they have been saying privately amongs themselves. They want us to lose.

These people are unpatriotic and unAmerican.

it's easy to sit at your keyboard and call others unpatriotic and unamerican. there's a growing call for 20-30k more troops. why don't you enlist? show me your patriotism.

"The left ties our hands behind our backs militarily...."

"We're 24 points ahead in the 4th quarter...."

That must be acid laced kool-aid you all are drinking.

To say our troops should not exit because you, you fat slob typing in your parents basement, would feel humiliated, too f-ing bad.

Suck it up or join up, you cowards. Bullies. Losers.

Wow. The 'chickenhawk' meme. How original.

It's time to echo John Kerry's statement of 30 years ago : How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake? My son is in the Army, currently serving in Ramadi. I do not want him to be the last man to die for George Bush's collosal mistake. There is no way to "win" in Iraq, there may be a slight chance we can get out without leaving the country in total chaos. It is the best we can hope for.

We have the equivalent of a 28 point lead in the 4th quarter with 10 minutes to go.

You must be watching a different game. The coach of this one disagrees with your rosy assessment.

The only acceptable outcome is total victory.

Congratulations. You and Bush are now officially the only ones left who believe that.

"The Left" isn't setting off car bombs
"The Left" isn't chopping off heads
"The Left" isn't shooting down helicopters
"The Left" isn't laying roadside bombs.

you can blame the media, the Democrats, etc. till you're blue in the face but you cannot change the facts on the ground. And no, domestic political debate, and our media did not create these facts.

oh yeah, and the reason that the Chickenhawk meme keeps coming back is that it fits.

Good for you, mr 41 year old volunteer, I hope you stay safe. but 99.99% of those who are screaming "kill 'em all" are hypocrites, including the AWOL Commander in Chief and the 5 deferments, other priorities Vice President.

carolha...
thank you and your son; for his service and your contribution. i agree with you about bush's collosal mistake. i was among the 500k that marched in nyc before the war. why it took three years for most of the rest of the country to recognize the mistake i'm not sure.
today i am less concerned with leaving iraq in chaos, than i am about leaving the entire region in chaos. i fear the baker commision, by delaying it's report in an attempt to protect a republican congress, may have missed the window of opportunity. today i wonder how we calm down a region enflamed by our actions, and move forward towards peace. it took a hand-full of huge egos and their un-critical supporters to get us here. it will take some real leadership and vision to salvage the situation.
thank you again.

It is a great thing we are doing in Iraq. May God Bless President George W. Bush for having the wisdom to go there and do what we have done.

We've won one war in Iraq already, defeating Saddam's military, killing his evil sons, and getting him convicted of murder and having him sentenced to death.

Now we need to win the media war. We don't need stability in Iraq to win. What we do need is to complete the job of empowering the Iraqi's to take care of themselves. We're almost done.

You can tell we are almost done and we've almost won by how frantic the Democrats and the Terrorists are becoming. They can see the writing on the wall, as it were.

Soon we will leave Iraq, with the exception of perhaps a base filled with troops, and the Iraqi's will be able to handle their own problems, thanks to President Bush and the United States Military. The Media, the Democrats, and Gates will take the credit and pat themselves on the back for pulling victory from the jaws of President Bush's defeat.

But for those people who've been paying attention, and history itself, will be the judge. And all will see that it was the steadfastness of President Bush and his supporters that allowed us to leave Iraq only after the Iraqi's were able to support themselves and defend themselves.

Again, God bless President Bush and God Bless our boys and girls in harms way in Iraq.

What garbage.

The "left" isn't losing the war, the "right" already lost it - and they lost before the first soldier was deployed to Iraq.

The conservatives lost the war by not having a plan going in, and by being unable to even define what was they defined as "victory". And they still can't. "Total victory"? Meaningless and non-responsive. Define the goal or admit you don't have one Kim. And if you don't have one you can't win it.

Pretty simple, huh?

So from a "loony leftie" who protested the war and argued against it ad nauseam with every moronic Kool-Aid drinking "they'll love us in Baghdad" wingnut for a full year before you lunkheads sent the first American soldier off to die for your hubris let me say this: go to hell. I didn't start this, I told you it was wrong and stupid and impossible from the get go as did every other liberal I know. Every single one of them. And you simply didn't listen. And as the bodies pile up (even among your OWN FAMILY for god's sake!) you still won't listen or think or consider or even reason. Keep whistling past the graveyard you all created.

And by all means keep waving the flag and pointing the finger of blame at all the people who were right and who desperately, passionately tried to make you see the truth but who you insulted and yelled at and disparaged as being "un-American" and "traitors".

Because 600,000 people are now dead as a result and you're still wrong.

"You can tell we are almost done and we've almost won by how frantic the Democrats and the Terrorists are becoming. They can see the writing on the wall, as it were."

??????

what are you smoking?

Conditions in Iraq are "grave and deteriorating," with the prospect that a "slide toward chaos" could topple the U.S.-backed government and trigger a regional war unless the United States changes course and seeks a broader diplomatic and political solution involving all of Iraq's neighbors, according to a bipartisan panel that gave its recommendations to President Bush and Congress today.

doesn't sound like almost finished to me.

Oh brother. Yeah, the Guardian is a great, objective news source. Keep proving my point. Tell me, what strategic positions or infrastructure have we lost? What major or even minor battles have we lost? Any major economic resourses that have been captured by the enemy? That's right, zip, zero, nada. The only thing we're "losing" is the propaganda war because of the constant drumbeat of negativity being offered up without mentioning *any* of the positives. You're feeding right into what al-Quaeda, et. al, want. This article proves that the world is undermining the effort to get this democracy underway. But you just keep chug, chug, chugging that Kool-Aid. It'll help keep that linguini spine of yours soft.

Chickenhawk? How pretentious. With that logic, can't criticize the President anymore until you become President.

Fat slob in my parent's basement? Once again, how pretentious of you. Way to bring the conversation to a Neanderthal level. I'm out.

Did anyone else notice the reference to the Alamo in Kim's original post? Weren't all those men killed?

Were Kim and Rick "Moron" suggesting that our only options are complete victory or a massive suicide mission?

is the baggi post above artfully crafted satire?
please tell me it is. please.

Please folks, listen. We invaded a soverign nation for no good reason. We pushed a democratic process on the people who were not ready for it. We hand chose their "new leader" (chalabi) who was a nutjob and a CIA "friend". He turned out lousy. Then we went through the highly visible, but practicaly useless election (remember the purple fingers?). It did no good. We disbanded the police force and civil servants who really ran the infrastructure of Iraq - and things fell apart (electricity, water, security, etc...). We then created a security force comprised of Iraqis who were more loyal to their religion (and tribe) than the central government. We should have put all faiths intermixed within single units - not separate units based on faith. Sunnis won't engage other Sunnis - Shia won't engage other Shia, etc...So, nobody really is in charge. Debating whether we are winning or losing is a waste of time as we shouldn't be there in the first place. For all the reich wingnuts out there - this is the main point: We shouldn't be there at all.

athetic, spinless worms, the lot of you who think we're losing. A few guerrila tactics and you're ready to throw in the towel. Absolutely pathetic.
Posted by: Tom Blogical at December 6, 2006 09:49 AM

I love these "idiot armchair" conservatives who think we're winning. Tom, if it's such a "winnable" war, why aren't you (and the Bush twins) in Iraq helping to get the job done even faster?

No, you and the entire Bush family will let others die for your "war on terror". Hypocrites, complete hypocrites.

Fat slob in my parent's basement? Once again, how pretentious of you. Way to bring the conversation to a Neanderthal level. I'm out.
Posted by: Tom Blogical at December 6, 2006 11:53 AM

Notice that he doesn't deny it? LOL.