“They [Catholics and others] will either have to change their views…”

“… or be treated in the same way that white supremacists and the segregationist Senators were treated.”

That from a constitutional law professor at prominent law school when asked about Same Sex Marriage (SSM).

Chilling but only surprising to those not paying attention.

Robert George at Mirror of Justice with details:

KkkOne of my superstar former students, writing about his experience at one of our nation’s premier law schools, sent me a note after reading my MOJ post on marriage, religious liberty, and the “grand bargain.”  Here is the text, with names removed to protect the innocent: 

I had a first-hand experience with this reality in law school. One of my constitutional law professors taught the section of our course relating to same-sex marriage under the “inevitability” banner. I met with him in office hours later to talk to him about something else, but I brought up a question that I have been wrestling with: if the SSM advocates are right and opposition to SSM becomes analogous to racism in our society, what will happen to Catholics and others whose views on SSM cannot and will not change? Are they to be excluded from public office, political and judicial appointments, or places of trust and responsibility within private institutions (e.g., law firm partnerships)? I posed the question to him because I was curious to hear his response, since he is generally a kind and reasonable person who seemed open to other viewpoints.

His response was very disappointing, and it shook my confidence in him. He responded to me by saying something along the lines of: “Well, they [Catholics and others] will either have to change their views or be treated in the same way that white supremacists and the segregationist Senators were treated. They were excluded from the judiciary entirely for decades because of the South’s views on race.” 

He evinced no sympathy for the traditional marriage position or those who hold it. They were to be relegated to the ash heap of history. He said all of this to me knowing full well (because I had foolishly just told him) that I was a Catholic who opposed SSM.

Is anyone prepared to say that the view expressed by the professor is merely a fringe opinion in the contemporary academy?  Is anyone prepared to say that it is the view of only a small minority, or a minority at all, in what University of Virginia sociologist Jonathan Haidt calls the liberal tribal-moral community of contemporary academia?  Would anyone deny that there is a significant element in the elite sector of the culture—an element with real power over the lives and careers of people like my former student—that wishes to penalize or discriminate against those who refuse in conscience to yield to the liberal orthodoxy on issues of sex and marriage?  Consider the professor’s own words.  He made no effort to hide his goals and intentions.  On the contrary, he made it abundantly clear that Catholics and others who persist in their dissent are to be treated the way we treat white supremacists.  They are to be stigmatized, subjected to discrimination, and denied the right to hold certain offices.

I know Catholics who are close to me who are not just dismissive of what Mr. George is suggesting here but actually supportive of SSM on the basis that it doesn’t impact them and so why should they care.

Here’s hoping at some point these folks open their eyes.

There’s much at stake.

With props once again to Lex Communis who opines:

Hey, maybe we should stop being so understanding now before they can send us to their Gulags.

Shortlink:

Posted by on January 3, 2012.
Filed under Leftist Tolerance, Religious Liberty.
I blog more regularly at my own place where plain thoughts are delivered roughly. My about page gives you more on who I am.

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  • http://otisthehand.blogspot.com/ OTIS the hand

    An obvious misrepresentation. We will be treated the same way the victims of white supremacists were treated. Harass and threaten with violence, it’s what the left does. Notice how these people can always be counted on to leave out the fact the the racist senators and white supremacists were virtually all Democrats. Notice how the professor threatens discrimination and segregation against Christians. He takes the role of oppressor. Notice how the current leftist goal is not equality with, but superiority over whites. The professor misrepresents his side’s position.  Racial supremacy is fine with these people, as long as it’s not the white variety. The Jeremiah Wright and La Raza types are welcomed with open arms.

    • http://otisthehand.blogspot.com/ OTIS the hand

      Sorry to reply to myself, but I just saw this and thought “how relevant.”

      MSNBC’s Andrea Mitchell raised some hackles in the Hawkeye State last week when she said that Iowa was “too white, too evangelical and too rural.”

      Can you imagine the crucifixion party for someone saying an area is “too black, too Muslim, and too urban?”

      • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/EU5DQWQTTHTPO4A4ZYSL3AAV2U Adjoran

        Andrea Mitchell just LOVES her some black people, y’all!  Why, she watches reruns of “The Cosby Show” all the time, and once even had a colored maid.

      • herddog505

        One doesn’t even have to SAY it.  The left just loves them some “code words”, you know.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_EJGOSD7BRBBY4ZQQEUCFQU4GHU W

    test

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_EJGOSD7BRBBY4ZQQEUCFQU4GHU W

    It has been a long time tactic of the left to use social pressure to get people to agree with their ideology and beliefs. They accuse people of being racist or Nazis if you disagree with their agenda. They call you a Flat Earther or a religious fanatic if you don’t blindly follow religiously their so call scientific conclusions.
    They can’t when by arguing the facts so they resort to personal attacks. Same old tactic that IMO is losing its effectiveness.

  • Anonymous

    SANTORUM!!!! 

    Hey, where is Jay Tea?  Is he dead, in an asylum, or what?  Send out the search parties.

    • http://www.brutallyhonest.org Rick Rice

      I’m worried about Jay Tea as well Chico… Wizbang just isn’t the same without him…

      • Anonymous

        It’s too much of a burden for you to provide 75% of the content, Rick.

        I suspect Jay Tea is out holding a sign for Romney in NH.

  • Anonymous

    “Hey, maybe we should stop being so understanding now before they can send us to their Gulags.”And they’d do it in a heart beat.  Only problem is, WE ARE THE ONES WITH GUNS.Maybe the Founding Fathers were on to something after all.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_UG44B3BSUSA2IKDMLCB2AMJ4OM Porkulus Chopius

      Yep. There is a saying, ‘those with the guns own the gold”, or something like that.

  • herddog505

    Contrarian position:

    Well, they [Catholics and others] will either have to change their views or be treated in the same way that white supremacists and the segregationist Senators were treated. They were excluded from the judiciary entirely for decades because of the South’s views on race.” 

    This is actually not at all unreasonable.  Part of the job of appointing a judge / justice is ensuring that he is technically qualified (i.e. understands US law) and that he’s not a whack-job.  IF our society reaches a point where gay marriage is as acceptable, routine and most importantly LEGAL as the current form of marriage, then a prospective judge who can’t deal with that has no business being on the bench.  The role of a judge is to uphold the law as it is written, not as he thinks it ought to be written.

    • Anonymous

      “The role of a judge is to uphold the law as it is written, not as he thinks it ought to be written.”

      Imagine that.  Too bad we have so few of those these days.

      • herddog505

        Tell me about it!

    • Anonymous

      As a Catholic, I don’t care what you do. But I do care about what a government may try to tell us what to do. I don’t oppose SSM laws as long a they make it clear that no clergy or officiants are required to marry anyone they object to upon religious principle.

  • Anonymous

    I don’t think there is a big cause for concern here.  Throughout history the church has readily changed it’s positions to fit society.  It was just a few decades ago that they apologized for what they did to Copernicus.

    The church might have more success in this argument if they took the stance that the state does not have the right to tell churches who they can or cannot marry.  Of course, they would have to quit trying to force the church’s views on the state and allow the state to marry people regardless of sex.

    • retired.military

      the Church doesnt force anything on people.  People willingly accept the teachings of the Church.    THe people belonging to the church have as much say about society as any other segment of the population.   The govt has no business telling the Church what it can and cannot do.

      • Anonymous

        I’m glad that you agree with me that the gov’t has no business telling churches who they can or cannot marry.  I also believe that the church has no business forcing their beliefs on the rest of us, ie. trying to make it illegal for the state to marry people of the same sex.

        ________________________________
        From: Disqus
        To: ackwired@yahoo.com
        Sent: Tuesday, January 3, 2012 3:05 PM
        Subject: [wizbang] Re: “They [Catholics and others] will either have to change their views…”
        Disqus generic email template

        retired.military wrote, in response to ackwired:
        the Church doesnt force anything on people.  People willingly accept the teachings of the Church.    THe people belonging to the church have as much say about society as any other segment of the population.   The govt has no business telling the Church what it can and cannot do.
        Link to comment

      • hyperboliszt

        The government doesn’t have to grant tax-exempt status to churches, though. They could say “Do whatever you want, but pay your damn property taxes.” That would be pretty cool.

    • Anonymous

      The Church has every right and every obligation to speak out on morality. You may accept it or take the risk of rejecting that natural  law which is in every man for a reason.

      • Anonymous

        I’m fine with them speaking out.  I’m fine with them advocating that I adopt their beliefs.  I just don’t think that they have any business trying to control civil law.

        ________________________________
        From: Disqus
        To: ackwired@yahoo.com
        Sent: Tuesday, January 3, 2012 4:02 PM
        Subject: [wizbang] Re: “They [Catholics and others] will either have to change their views…”
        Disqus generic email template

        1crappie2 wrote, in response to ackwired:
        The Church has every right and every obligation to speak out on morality. You may accept it or take the risk of rejecting that natural  law which is in every man for a reason. Link to comment

    • http://www.brutallyhonest.org Rick Rice

      You are most uninformed to suggest that the Catholic Church is going to change a Sacrament (one of only 7) that would soon allow gay marriage especially when homosexuality is seen to be a disordered thing from the perspective of natural law, tradition and Scripture…  most uninformed…

      • herddog505

        I dunno… I’m sure that a number of Anglicans / Episcopalians might have said the same thing not too long ago.

      • Anonymous

        Do they still have the same beliefs that they did in the 10th century?

        ________________________________
        From: Disqus
        To: ackwired@yahoo.com
        Sent: Tuesday, January 3, 2012 4:11 PM
        Subject: [wizbang] Re: “They [Catholics and others] will either have to change their views…”
        Disqus generic email template

        Rick Rice wrote, in response to ackwired:
        You are most uninformed to suggest that the Catholic Church is going to change a Sacrament (one of only 7) that would soon allow gay marriage especially when homosexuality is seen to be a disordered thing from the perspective of natural law, tradition and Scripture…  most uninformed… Link to comment

        • http://www.brutallyhonest.org Rick Rice

          In terms of the sanctity of marriage and the notion that it takes place between a man and a woman? Yes.

          Period.

          • hyperboliszt

            What society is ruled by the dictates of “natural law”, Rick? “Natural law” a hundred years ago would have occluded women and minorities from voting, and was cited as a reason for upholding anti-miscegenation laws.

          • http://www.brutallyhonest.org Rick Rice

            I’ll need to see some evidence for this… I’m not sure that there’s any western society not influenced in important way by the precepts of natural law…

          • hyperboliszt

            Southern Democrats opposed miscegenation because it offended the “natural order” of things.

            Loving v. Virginia: “Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.”

            Of course Western societies are all influenced by this line of thinking and I never said otherwise. Natural law is just insufficient on its own to account for the ways in which our morals have developed; i.e., suffragettes didn’t present arguments on that basis (and yet their arguments were sound).

          • http://www.brutallyhonest.org Rick Rice

            Where on this thread has there been an argument put forth that would suggest society should be governed by natural law alone?

            And are you aware of the involvement of the Catholic church in fighting the Southern Democrats referenced?

          • hyperboliszt

            Yup. Also aware that the church holds far-left views on nuclear weapons, war and immigration. Basically, if you are of the right-wing political persuasion and think that the Catholic Church speaks for you, you’re trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole.

            Natural law lacks explanatory power with respect to the way we ought to treat one another. To be sure, you could tell a story using the vocabulary of natural law to explain certain achievements in the realm of interpersonal conduct, but people are free to tell themselves all sorts of stories. Natural law is essentially taking a snapshot of how you think society ought to work, finding commonalities between that harmonious state of affairs, society today, and the way society operated in the past, and then attributing this success to a “law” of “nature”. It’s an inherently fallacious moral system. Much of what the Church espoused as universally true is now accepted to be only conditionally true or even outright false by that same Church. Ergo, it’s a vacuous way for a Catholic to discuss moral concepts.

          • http://www.brutallyhonest.org Rick Rice

            You’re bouncing all over the map here simply to showcase your anti-Catholic bigotry. I’m bored by it. Catholicism holds leftist views and conservative views depending on the issue, on this we’ll agree but your assertion that Catholic teaching is self nullifying is a statement you’ll have to substantiate. And your reading of natural law as a fallacious moral system would also need some delving into. Nevertheless, you’re diverting into tributaries where the subject matter isn’t, suggesting you’d much rather swim in the shallowness of your own bigotry.

    • Anonymous

      To me, it’s a freedom of contract issue. 

      In relation to the state, marriage is just another contract, in fact there are business partnerships in which disputes and break-ups are more emotionally charged than some marriage divorces.

      If there is a demand that the state enforce a type of marriage contract between those of the same sex (or polygamous contracts, for that matter) let the people have their freedom to contract.  It is no concern of mine.

      • Anonymous

        That’s fine for the state.  But I don’t think the state should be telling churches who the can or can not marry.

        ________________________________
        From: Disqus
        To: ackwired@yahoo.com
        Sent: Tuesday, January 3, 2012 8:27 PM
        Subject: [wizbang] Re: “They [Catholics and others] will either have to change their views…”
        Disqus generic email template

        Commander_Chico wrote, in response to ackwired:
        To me, it’s a freedom of contract issue.

        In relation to the state, marriage is just another contract, in fact there are business partnerships in which disputes and break-ups are more emotionally charged than some marriage divorces.
        If there is a demand that the state enforce a type of marriage contract between those of the same sex (or polygamous contracts, for that matter) let the people have their freedom to contract.  It is no concern of mine. Link to comment

  • http://www.brutallyhonest.org Rick Rice

    It’s not at all unreasonable to equate faithful Catholics with white supremacists and/or segregationist Senators?  We are at a point now culturally where Catholics, by merely an act of their being, should be excluded from the Federal bench solely based on their religious preferences?

    This is America correct?  I’m just checkin’…

  • Anonymous

    I think this professor was making a prediction, not a threat.

    Someone could have religious, conscience-driven objections to, say, interracial marriage or even integration. That guy is NOT going to be appointed a judge, and probably won’t make partner in a law firm, either.

    If “SSM” (what a cute acronym) becomes the law of the land and mainstream practice, then a guy who has conscience-driven objections to it will probably be in the same boat as the interracial marriage guy. Rightfully so, in my opinion, but my opinion doesn’t matter. Law and precedent will.

    History will have passed him by, and so, yes, he’s either gonna have to change his views or go the way of Senator Foghorn Leghorn.

    • Anonymous

      If one who doesn’t believe in SSM will have no right to be appointed judge or make partner in a law firm, then how did we get so many judges appointed who believed in SSM when it was against the law?  I guess we should have disqualified them on this single issue while we had the chance.

      • Anonymous

        Read carefully, Walt. I didn’t say he’d “have no right” to be appointed judge or to make partner. I PREDICTED that he won’t, just like this professor did.

        He won’t be a judge or a partner, not because he’d “have no right” to be, but because he’ll be considered outside the mainstream, a dinosaur, a bigot, just like the racist Democratic senators of old. No one will make the appointment, or give the promotion, to this dude.

        • Walter_Cronanty

          Let’s see.  If someone has a religious objection to SSM, then “[t]hat guy is NOT going to be appointed a judge, and probably won’t make partner in a law firm, either.”  And, you say: “Rightfully so, in my opinion, but my opinion doesn’t matter. Law and precedent will.”  But, I didn’t read carefully enough because you never said that the guy would “have no right” to be appointed. 
          So, let’s recap – you said that he’d never be appointed, you personally agreed with that, and that law and precedent would dictate that result – but you really meant that [whispered under your breath with your fingers crossed?] he’d still have a “right” to the appointment, even though he’d never get it and the law would require that he’d never get it.    
          All of that to dance around my point that social conservatives should have used the same rationale in refusing to appoint/confirm judges who believed in SSM when it was against the law.   Wow, sophistry and obfuscation that only a highly educated leftist could appreciate. 

          • Brucehenry

            OK, yeah, “law and precedent” was not what I meant to say, I guess. Well, “precedent,” maybe. I guess I can see where I led you wrong on that one.

            What I meant to say — what I should have said — is that he’ll not get the appointment because, as I did say in my next comment, he’ll be considered a dinosaur, a bigot, a relic of a benighted past. And rightfully so, IMO. 

            But you’re right, I wouldn’t want to see a law passed that said,”Those holding this or that view shall not be appointed judge,” or whatever. So the “law and precedent” thing I want a backsies on. LOL.

            BTW, does two years at Daytona Beach Community College in the early 1970s mean I’m “highly educated”?

          • Walter_Cronanty

            Daytona Beach Community College must have been the Harvard of the South in the 70s, or you have some serious God-given talents.

  • Anonymous

    As the Apostle Paul reminded us -the powers and principalities are our ever-living enemies and don’t think the “give us Barrabus” crowd has dispursed. Now they want the followers of the God that came to “bring the truth”….

  • Anonymous

    I wonder if the “traditional marriage=racism” crowd would be interested in what I think is the best possible solution, which is to absolve government of the power to “marry”, and instead give it the power to recognize civil unions and domestic partnerships as legal institutions.  Marriage would then be relegated back where it belongs, to the churches, as a religious sacrament.  When you married someone, you would simply register as a domestic partnership with the state, then have the church perform the marriage sacrament.  Of course that would give liberals one less opportunity to condemn religion, so it probably would never fly.

    • Anonymous

      Yes, in relation to the state, marriage is just another type of partnership contract.  Let people have freedom, including polygamous contracts. 

  • Anonymous

    While I agree that the term “marriage” should be reserved to a man-woman union, limiting the rights of gays to form civil unions with the same legal rights and responsibilities will not stand for much longer. Christians/Catholics do not have the right to impose their views on a non-theocratic society. BTW if Rick Santorum or Newt becomes the Republican nominee, not only will we have to endure 4 more years of BHO, but we will be sidetracked from our country’s dire economic situation in favor of the irresolvable religious issues of abortion and SSM.

  • Keith_Richard_Radford_Jr

    Patches: Faith Based interference elbow suite sleeve cover ups to combat paying out for illegal use of laws.  Life is far to short for sex laws and sex laws promote inequality between people.

    • Brucehenry

      Could you translate that into a couple of coherent English sentences, please?

      • Keith_Richard_Radford_Jr

        There is nothing legal about sex laws. Sex laws have progressively gotten more punitive over the years to the point that a person traveling to visit a friend or relative must report within three days in each state, must register their whereabouts and is legally confined to state or local areas and in my humble opinion after so many years on this registry (25+) seems anyone in direct option of the power players use anyone as guided sex missiles standing to offer us a coupon for two breast so we can make an inappropriate comment or sexually interpreted action to put someone on the list, what is to keep the law from confining someone to a home/room/grave? Placing someone in the custody of an individual? Who is to say that individual does not only want more than their silver polished? What”s next? Maybe forcing someone to sleep with someone they don’t know to save them/room/prison for convenience/death to blanche our budget? Isn’t that what is already being done in Motels/Hotels/Prisons where sex offenders/political prisoners, are housed now? Say a kid whats to have sex with someone/masturbate/take off their own dipper, are they to be put to death for the desire or the desire to have sex with someone not within an idealistic age deemed appropriate, or say that someone is themselves through masturbation, what is the difference, when the outcome is a lifetime of monitoring by people that have no desire for companionship/intimacy/sex/ even love unconditionally? Sex laws are an imposition where law has no place too tread and what happens? Officers come and beat you up, throw you in jail and warn you to go back to a
        slaves existence created by unjust law? Is that not what happened in
        Egypt when Israel slaves chose to kill all first born children before
        going on the run and spending 40 year in the desert dodging another
        religion, and won’t that be the outcome in forty years all over again
        or something similar as these laws prove to reveal the final solutions
        again as they have again and again by the same people that have done
        this so many times and people are expected to register or die in
        prison? Put us in a situations where we can’t defend ourselfs from the
        law? The intimidation organized by law is wrong concerning sex. So
        quite frankly sex laws are sex slavery and the courts are the
        traffickers using law enforcement to facilitate the law of slavery to
        an unjust system of abuse of freedom to move about the country or even
        from town to town, apartment, to apartment, person to person through
        laws concerning sex and if equality were the goal then there would be
        no law, so then what is the ultimate goal as gender becomes the means
        by which a mother and her daughter can conspire to use men even their
        siblings through laws that have no defensive availability of proof
        other than word of mouth?

        I watched the person inject the little thing into my hand at that
        prison in San Luis Obispo and getting my arm fractured, back injured,
        home broken into by officers has only added to my convection against
        the people pushing these laws which must be ended and the power taken
        form the law that would give power to such people. Its time to stop or
        face a horrible future that has no good outcome when lies told are so
        easy to be seen as what they are and why they are told. Look at the
        DSM and the health care fraud, Theocracy running amok in the health
        care medicare fraud case just sent a Floridian man to jail for 50
        years. Faith based interference and cover up to keep from paying out
        by marginalizing whole groups of people on a lie. And sex laws only
        promote inequality between sex because for laws to be unbiased they do
        not cary more weight for one sex over another yet how many online sex
        pron makers were prosecuted in 2011, I found ten so our Justice system
        relies on plea bargains which are struck between people on the same
        mission because if they were true psychopaths they would not bargain
        at all or they would have bargained before and knew it dose not work.

        Best regards,
        Keith Richard Radford Jr
        http://sosunite.blogspot.com/
        818 627-8060

      • Keith_Richard_Radford_Jr

        As for the patches, that is what law makers are doing/have been doing have done in an atempt tp fix this mess they have made. look up the creation and founders of the Ideas Playground and the mission which is alie because if tbe idea is not what they decide to be the desired one they throjgb out tbe student.

        • Brucehenry

          Eeeewww. Sorry I asked.