“The main problem for young black men is not violent white men chasing them. It is black on black violence.”

I watched a local news report yesterday focused on a rally in support of Trayvon Martin.  The reporter was interviewing a mother who was near hysterical in voicing her fear that her teenage son might also be set upon by an assailant because her son is black and because her son wears a hoodie.  The reporter was eating it up.  The crowd around the mother chanting in support.

The AP dutifully published a related piece by Jesse Washington where Mr. Washington is compelled by the Martin shooting to describe The Black Male Code to his son sooner than he would’ve liked:

BlackMaleCodeAs I explained it, the Code goes like this:

Always pay close attention to your surroundings, son, especially if you are in an affluent neighborhood where black folks are few. Understand that even though you are not a criminal, some people might assume you are, especially if you are wearing certain clothes.

Never argue with police, but protect your dignity and take pride in humility. When confronted by someone with a badge or a gun, do not flee, fight, or put your hands anywhere other than up.

Please don’t assume, son, that all white people view you as a threat. America is better than that. Suspicion and bitterness can imprison you. But as a black male, you must go above and beyond to show strangers what type of person you really are.

I was far from alone in laying out these instructions. Across the country this week, parents were talking to their children, especially their black sons, about the Code. It’s a talk the black community has passed down for generations, an evolving oral tradition from the days when an errant remark could easily cost black people their job, their freedom, or sometimes their life.

After Trayvon Martin was killed, Al Dotson Jr., a lawyer in Miami and chairman of the 100 Black Men of America organization, told his 14-year-old son that he should always be aware of his surroundings, and of the fact that people might view him differently “because he’s blessed to be an African-American.”

“It requires a sixth sense that not everyone needs to have,” Dotson said.

And so it goes.  The Trayvon Martin shooting now a reason to revive “an evolving oral tradition from the days when an errant remark could cost black people their job, their freedom, or sometimes their life.

But is all this fear rational?  

P.J. Tatler suggests the answer is not just no, but hell no:

The present media wave about the tragic death of Trayvon Martin is for me, an outsider, a fascinating lesson in race, politics, and media perversity in America.

The impression is being generated that young black men are continuously hunted by white men, and killed.

So I wanted to know the exact figures. The most recent, those of 2009, I could find are on the site of the Department of Justice.

About 13% of the population is black. About 80% is white (this number includes Hispanics).

In 2009, 2,963 white individuals were killed by white offenders. White offenders killed 209 black individuals.

In that same year, 2,604 black individuals were killed by black offenders. And 454 white individuals were killed by black offenders.

As we see, there is cross-racial deadly violence, but offenders mainly cause victims within their own race; it is so-called intra-racial.

What about recent decades? Murders surveyed between 1974 and 2004 show that 52% of the offenders were black, 48% were white. Of the victims, 51% were white, 47% were black.

In that period, 86% of white murders had whites offenders, and 94% of black murders had black offenders.

There may be a hunt by white vigilantes for innocent young black men in Florida — if it exists, the figures show this is a limited phenomenon. Trayvon Martin’s death should be thoroughly investigated and the vigilante should be brought to trial in case he broke the law. But such a crime is an exception.

The main problem for young black men is not violent white men chasing them. It is black on black violence.

And the main problem with that main problem is that it doesn’t fit the meme.

The tragedy of young Mr. Martin’s death is being compounded by the tragedy of America’s willingness to be manipulated.

Welfare, Not Work: Obama Shuts Down Minority Business Agency
Mob rule anyone?
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  • Meiji Man

    I wouldn’t call that “Code” race specific. It works for white teenagers too.

  • GarandFan

     “And the main problem with that main problem is that it doesn’t fit the meme.”

    As Bill Cosby was told, ‘Don’t wash our dirty laundry in public!’

    • jim_m

       The problem is that they never deal with the “dirty laundry”.

      • Commander_Chico


        Tell me, are you responsible for dealing with the “dirty laundry” of white men?

        • jim_m

           I don’t see black leadership (eg the NAACP) doing a whole lot about black on black crime, but I see them running Bullshit political ads and generally contributing to keeping their fellow minorities stuck in poverty.  I see black leaders worrying more about keeping black conservatives down on the plantation than promoting black diversity and focusing on the needs of the black community.  (Unless you consider focusing on the needs as being nothing more than demonstrating for more government hand outs.)

          • Hugh_G

            Tell us all you know about the NAACP you wise white man.

          •  @Hugh_G:disqus,

            Your comment above is racist on its face.  You owe jim_m an apology.

          • Hugh_G

            You know the rightwing deflection is to accuse us of racism when we bring up the subject of race. [Not a deflection, your comment was racist on its face] It’s false , weak and disingenuous.[Now you are deflecting.] This jackass Jim pretends to know about the leadership of the NAACP and what is in their minds. I called him out on it. [You insinuated a “wise white man” could know nothing of the NAACP]

            We’re onto the rightwing ploy of deflection about discussions concerning race. Wake up.[Nope, we’re on the not going to tolerate frank racism.]

          • jim_m

             I just observe and report.  I see the racist bile that you and your fellow lefties spew out.  I see how you treat minorities in condescending and demeaning ways.  I see how you go out of your way to trash the character of minorities who don’t act in the ways that you preconceive.

            As to the NAACP perhaps you should recall the ads run by that organization spuriously tying GWB to the brutal murder of a black man.  What was once a significant and worthy organization has declined to become nothing more that a tool of race merchants.  It’s sad really.

          • Brucehenry

            Those kinds of “moderating” practices can RUIN a blog, Rodney. Do you want to be another Little Green Footballs?

          •  Your opinion is duly noted.

          •  I sincerely hope that translates to “heard and dismissed.”

  • LiberalNightmare

    If you look like a thug, people treat you like a thug.

    Its the same rule I tell my own kids.

  • The same media who helped give us Hussein Obama is perpetrating another farce that will not bode well for our country.  The only way I can cope sanely with the lies and deceit we are fed daily by politicians and their media lackeys is to remember “What goes around comes around.  If not in this lifetime, in the next.”  
    The desire to incite hate and fear for political gain and favor is simply evil.  Many young men and women of the black community will be lost to hate and violence unless the reality of this situation is confronted and changed.  Obama is using them to death.

  • Brucehenry

    Again, these are separate issues. Unfortunate as black-on-black crime is, it is an issue that has little or nothing to do with the Trayvon Martin case.

    Trayvon appears to have been suspected by Zimmerman simply because he was a young black male in a hoodie. An older black male in Zimmerman’s place may have had a similar reaction, but probably wouldn’t have followed him for blocks after being advised by 911 “we don’t need you to do that,” and Trayvon may have still been alive today.

    Zimmerman’s call doesn’t report any criminality. He claims the kid “looks like he’s up to no good,” seems to be “on drugs or something” (how could he possibly know that?), and was “looking at me.” He complains that “these assholes always get away.” (He stopped that, am I right?) And he seems to have muttered “fucking coons” shortly before the kid’s death.

    A cop-wannabe- bullyboy who felt like a big man because he was packing is set to get away with what was at best a terrible mistake and at worst murder, and all Wizbang can do is remind us how dangerous young black men can be?

    I’m willing to say the cops on the scene made a good faith error, but a grand jury should definitely look into this, and IF this guy is anything like I’ve characterized him above, he should be prosecuted. This case has absolutely nothing to do with black-on-black crime, so why bring it up?

    • jim_m

       The point, which you apparently do not get, is that black on black crime is far more of a serious problem and that all too often people get distracted by the unusual event and ignore the bigger issue.  Sure the death of Trayvon Martin is unfortunate, but there are 1000’s of murders every year that the media and liberal race merchants ignore because they can’t make money off of them.

      People might take you seriously about Trayvon Martin if it actually appear as though you really cared about the welfare of black people.  The fact that even now you can’t be stirred to care about the real problem tells me that you don’t care about this beyond the political issue

      • Brucehenry

        I personally can do little to alleviate the problem of black-on-black crime, while I CAN add my voice to the wave of outrage in the Martin case. Hopefully a grand jury investigation will result (and if public pressure is kept up, won’t be a whitewash) as result of petitions etc which I have signed and joined in.

        Your presumptuous assumptions to knowledge of what I care about is typical of you, Jim. Why must you be so insulting? Why can’t you assume about me what I assume about you — that you are a well-meaning doofus who sincerely believes what he types out on Wizbang?

        If you don’t take me seriously, fair enough. Don’t reply.

        • jim_m

           Because I don’t find politicizing the death of a young man while ignoring the real problems that blacks face to be “well meaning”.  You are seeking to exploit a tragedy for your own purposes and you really don’t give a crap about the larger problem.  You just admitted to this being your position so, no, I don’t find that to be well meaning.  Not on this issue.

          • Brucehenry

            Really. well, what, pray tell, ARE my “own purposes” for expressing outrage about the police inaction on the Martin case?

            While we’re at it, how does reminding us that black-on-black crime is a huge problem demonstrate the YOU “care about the welfare of black people”? You actually DOING anything about it? No? Then why do you expect me to be?

            Unemployment is a huge problem for black folks, too, Jim. You haven’t said anything about that lately. Does that mean you don’t care? Or does it mean that the next time there’s a Wizbang thread addressing the matter, you’ll say something like “Unemployment? Bah! What about the REAL problem — black-on-black crime?”

            See, that’s my point, Doofus. We can discuss one thing independently of the other. It’s not that hard, if you’ll just leave off trying to score pathetic gotchas. 

          • jim_m

             I suppose I’m just offended by the pose of people who claim to be all torn up about Trayvon Martin and how simply awful life is for black people and then when the Trayvon Martin incident fades from the media scene they completely forget about black people.

            And yes it’s true that I really don’t do anything especially to help black people.  I happen to believe in treating them as equals and not as incompetents that constantly need a hand out.

          • Brucehenry

            I don’t believe I’ve ever cried the blues on Wizbang about How Awful life is for black folks, Jim, or given you any reason to believe I am “posing.”

             I don’t like bullies, I don’t like guys who need a gun to feel like a man. I don’t like cops who let bullies off the hook. That’s what I’m outraged about. I don’t care if the kid was black, white, or Martian. The fact that he was black is just evidence against Zimmerman, as far as I’m concerned, because of the “fucking coons” mutterings.

          • superdestroyer

            There are many unsolved murders of blacks every week.  There are many murders of blacks where the suspects are know but where blacks refuse to “snitch” of the suspencts. 

            It appears that the only reason blacks care about Martin is that by claiming that a Hispanic man is white, it makes whites look bad.  

            If blacks have to teacher their kids to be careful about whites and the police, then what are whites suppose to teach their children about being around violent blacks?

          • jim_m

             I’ll wager that if his name was Hernandez and not Zimmerman, the left wouldn’t be so hot on accusing him.  But given the Jewish surname the left jumped on this immediately.

            The furor is all because it is a non black killing a black.  I suppose that just like using the N word, only blacks are allowed to call other blacks a N—— and only blacks are allowed to murder other blacks. 

            If Zimmerman were black this would never have made the local news.

          • Brucehenry

            More Jim M clairvoyance. Give it up.

            Or is it another pathetic attempt at a gotcha? The Jewish surname bit? Please.

            The furor is because a young man was killed and the cops appear to have handled their “investigation” with incompetence at best and negligence at worst.

          • jim_m

             You disagree that if this were just another black on black murder that we would not be getting this 24/7 from the MSM?


          •  He won’t answer that.

          • superdestroyer

            The police are incompetent is many cities.  Black controlled cities like DC, Detroit, and Newark are infamous for having incompetent police that are not every good at getting convictions in murders.  Yet , blacks re-elected the leaders in those cities such as Marion Barry or Kwame Kilpatrick and never get excited about unsolved killings. 

          • Brucehenry

            LOL, because whites never tell their kids to be careful of young black men? Where you been the past two hundred years?

          • jim_m

             Jesse Jackson is afraid of young black men.  Why shouldn’t the rest of us be?

          • Brucehenry

            Who said you shouldn’t be?

             I’m a little cautious, at my age, around all testosterone-filled swaggering young guys, especially if I think they may have been drinking. 

            Doesn’t mean I get to shoot ’em.

          • jim_m

             No.  The best use of a gun is not having to fire it.  Most people won’t push things if they know you are armed. I fault Zimmerman for not controlling the situation better.

            But I still say the the furor is overblown for the sole purpose of inflaming racial tensions.  As I have pointed out, if Zimmerman had been a black man this wouldn’t have made the evening news.

          • Brucehenry

            You’re entitled to that opinion.

          •  If they attack you in Florida, you DO get to shoot your attacker.

          • mikegiles

             Yes, they refuse to “snitch out” the person who lives two doors down from them, and whose henchmen, will still be there when the police have gone back to the suburbs. You know, I don’t think rampant crime ended in Little Italy, or the Lower East Side because of neighborhood watches or informing to the police. It ended because many of their victims simply moved away from them.

          • Hugh_G

            You couldn’t give a shit less about anybody’s problems except yours. Tell us what you’ve done to help alleviate these pressing issues.

          • jim_m

            I have answered to Bruce regarding this very question further up the thread and am not going to waste space repeating it here. 

            My point is that all the lefties foaming at the mouth over this are just using the issue to create a crisis for political gain.  We have already seen some calling for more gun control (yawn) and Jesse Jackson virtually declare this to be the product of a white on black race war. 

            This is an issue because the left wants to profit from racial discord.  It is not an issue because someone was murdered.

        • superdestroyer

          Why are people who outraged in this single murder case than all of the murders that occur every year.  The only apparent reason is that the case can used for political reason and to increase the political power of blacks and lower the political power of whites. 

          • Brucehenry

            Finally get tired of being ignored on OTB?

      • mikegiles

        Guess what! Black parents don’t have to warn their children about black on black crime because it’s all around them. They often live in the same neighborhoods as the criminals. They’ve often already been a victim at the hands of black criminals already. No need to warn them about an ever present danger, but it might do some good to warn them what to do in the odd situation. Or in a strange neighborhood.

        As for black on black crime, other blacks are not ignoring it or playing it down, what would you suggest we do?

    • Cecil Bordages

      BH: The reason to bring up the black on black crime is becuase the media narrative on this tragedy is the white men are looking to kill black children. Unfortunately, the facts don’t fit the narrative and so will not be reported widely.

      In case you didn’t know, there is an ongoing investigation that will probably lead to a grand jury hearing the case.

      • Brucehenry

        I don’t see that in the “media narrative”. Maybe the New Black Panthers think that. 

        The picture, that is so ubiquitous, of Zimmerman, makes him look Hispanic to me.

        And I do know of the investigation — the investigation that wouldn’t have happened had it not been for public pressure.

        • SCSIwuzzy

          Because he is hispanic

          • Brucehenry

            Right. So how does that feed into the “media narrative” that “white men are looking to kill black children”?

          • jim_m

             Sorry.  I heard him characterized as “white” long before I ever heard he was hispanic.

          •  Better you should direct that inquiry to the media directly – as if you didn’t know the answer.

    •  Baloney.  Martin was walking along the buildings and homes, not on the sidewalk like a pedestrian, but like a burglar casing the place.  When he saw he was being watched, he pulled up his hood and took evasive action.  Nothing suspicious about that to you?

      Zimmerman followed him on foot when Martin ducked between the community center and other buildings where a car couldn’t go, but lost him and was returning to his truck.  Next thing he – and we- knew, Martin was on top of him beating him, and Zimmerman was screaming for help.

      He wasn’t arrested because ALL the evidence at the scene, including the statements of the two witnesses, points directly to self-defense.  “Stand your ground” laws never came into play.

      And the poor, sweet child’s loving family didn’t bother to call police for THREE DAYS.  The loving girlfriend who now claims she was on the phone with him didn’t notify anyone either.  But now, with a lawyer and a payday in sight, oh the wailing and mourning be going on!

      You, of course, accept the version of the race pimps Sharpton and Jackson and Spike Lee and Obama because you don’t give a rat’s patootie about the facts, just about advancing your leftist narrative.

      Wear your hood up and creep along my house and see what happens, Homey.

      • Brucehenry

        It was raining. That may explain the “walking along buildings” thing, Genius. And the hood.

        Zimmerman followed him on foot — after being told by 911 “we don’t need you to do that.” If he had left him alone, Trayvon would have gone back to his father’s girlfriend’s house. Or maybe, like the “asshole” Zimmerman was so sure he was, he would have “gotten away” — after doing NOTHING CRIMINAL. Because, you see, he was guilty of nothing, as far as Zimmerman knew, beyond “looking like he was up to no good.”

        So you’re right, “Stand Your Ground” doesn’t come into play — because it doesn’t apply to pursuing a suspected …what? what was he suspected of?

        Zimmerman may have had some justification if Trayvon had had his hood up and been “creeping along” Zimmerman’s house. He wasn’t.

        BTW, you betray yourself with your snark and insults to the boy’s family. You don’t know why they didn’t call the police. And, please…”oh the wailing and mourning BE going on!”???? Quoted without comment from me. Draw your own conclusions, Wizbangers.

        But why I am even bothering with you, you ignoramus? You spent HOURS last night calling people liars and simultaneously claiming there was no 7/11 in the neighborhood, and come to find out, there WAS. Before that, you spent hours bewailing that people were forming opinions based on what they “heard on the internet” as if people were getting all their info on this from chain e-mails from their crazy uncles. Meanwhile, where was YOUR information coming from? It is to laugh.

        “See what happens, Homey.” You’re a real piece of work, dude. I”ve never been afraid of bullies, especially blowhard types like yourself. Don’t flatter yourself that anyone has ever been given pause by your bluster. Pfffttt.

        •  I don’t give a rat’s patootie what you think or say.  You once again mischaracterize the facts in such a way that I can only conclude your intent is to deceive.

          Part of the call is Zimmerman describing that Martin put up his hood when he saw him watching him.  That makes your “raining” theory a fabrication.  But raining or not, walking by people’s houses closely at night is by definition suspicious behavior.

          • Brucehenry

            I mischaracterize nothing. Did you or did you not insist repeatedly there was no 7/11 nearby? All the while calling me and others “lefty liars?” And IS there a 7/11 nearby? Why, YES, there is! That makes your claim that there was “no 7/11 nearby” kind of a “fabrication,” doesn’t it?

            Did you, or did you not, repeatedly claim that people were getting hysterical about “internet rumors”? Why, YES, you did. Meanwhile, were you, or were you not, getting your information about Martin’s weight, etc from the internet? Why, YES, you were.

            Zimmerman CLAIMED in the call that Trayvon pulled up his hood when he saw Zimmerman looking at him. He also reports it was raining. No fabrication. It was indeed raining, which is just as good a reason to pull up your hood as some fat creepy fuck checking you out.

            In any case, “suspicious behavior” is reason for a 911 call. Zimmerman’s neighborhood watch duty was done when the call was made. Following the kid, and the kid ending up dead, is reason enough for a grand jury investigation, since the cops were in such a hurry to close the case.

            Some commenters here talk out their asses, Adjoran. Some are just baldfaced liars who expect everyone else to forget their previous lies with every new post. You are that rare bird who can unashamedly do both. Congratulations.


            All lies in jest
            Still a man hears what he wants to hear
            And disregards the rest

          • Brucehenry

            Hey, cool Simon and Garfunkel reference! Thought they were before your time.

          • Consider, brother, in the bowels of Christ, that you may be mistaken.

    •  You seem to know a little about the event, but connect the dots in a bizarre fashion.

      The investigation is not over.  The legal system has not even spooled up as yet. 

      No one knows at this point what the final story will be.

      As far as your criticism of Wizbang, you are in Left field.  Wizbang is commenting in response to the race baiting attitudes and statements in the media and among the usual race industry crowd–including unfortunately, the occupant of the White House.  Those comments are certainly valid.

      • Brucehenry

        Bizarre how?

        The investigation WOULD BE over were it not for the public outcry, Brainiac. For the umpteenth time, the police had closed the case. They were going to let the matter drop.

        Now, in response to the uproar, the police chief has “temporarily” removed himself and the state and the Feds are getting involved.

        I’m not criticizing Wizbang itself so much as individual commenters, Bob. Read carefully.

        BTW, not to get into the whole “Obama should shut up” thing, but have you guys ever considered that Trayvon DOES look, facial-resemblance-wise, like a young Barack Obama? Look again at the picture of Trayvon looking directly at the camera in that hoodie. Now look at a picture of teen Barack. Don’t you see a certain resemblance? Beyond race, I mean? Tall, lanky, with similar features? No? Not one little bit?

        •  The investigation would over because there was NO evidence of a crime.

    • “And he seems to have muttered “fucking coons” shortly before the kid’s death.” Actually nobody can hear him say that on any of the tapes …A cop-wannabe- bullyboy who felt like a big man ????  If I described the 6’2″ “kid” as a thug in a hoodie you would have a heart attack attacking me as a racist …

      White on Black crime is a rarity but the media and you are trying to claim it is common …  so that is why it needs to be brought up …

      • Brucehenry

        I can hear it. It’s at the 2:21 mark in the 911 call. It’s more a whisper than a mutter, but it’s there. Listen again.

        I’m not making any claims about the frequency of white-on-black crime, genius. Re-read the thread and see if I am.

        • herddog505

          I can’t tell what Zimmerman said at that moment.  EIther he was breathing hard into the mike or else there was some other wind noise.  I don’t even hear a “oo” sound; sounds more like a long “o”.

          But don’t worry about it.  Quite aside from the fact that lefties hear racial slurs in their sleep*, most people WON’T listen to the transcript but rather will accept at face value that Zimmerman said “f*cking coons” because it’s been reported that way, so you’ll get your lynching.


          (*) After the alleged Tea Party / racial epithet incident a couple of years ago, my favorite is the “racist” police dog.  Seriously.


  • Commander_Chico

    Agreed that black-on-black crime is a bigger problem than the Zimmermans of this world, but that does not mean that the Zimmermans should not be prosecuted.

    Years ago, I went to a talk by Professor Randall Kennedy, who wanted tougher mandatory penalties for violent crime – because statistics showed that it was the race of the victim, more than the race of the perpetrator, that determined sentencing, with black lives given less value.  That dynamic seems to be operating in the initial response to the Trayvon Martin shooting.

    My own perspective on race is shaped by my time in the military.  I saw all kinds of racism and all kinds of mutual support.  There were plenty of black guys who hated whites, but more whites who were the other way around.  A couple times I was caught in the middle, where a white superior of mine wanted me to come down on a black subordinate for reasons that seemed out of whack with the black guy’s actual performance. 

    • MichaelLaprarie

      There are still many pieces of the puzzle that we don’t know.  Specifically, I haven’t read any crime statistics or demographic data from that particular neighborhood.  What is the racial makeup of the neighborhood?  What kind of crimes are routinely reported?  How many people are arrested each year?  What is the racial makeup of suspects who are arrested?  Are those who are arrested mostly residents of the neighborhood, or elsewhere? 

      We also have very little information (at least AFAIK) about Martin.  Was he known to police?  Were his friends/family known to police?  What kind of student was he?  What was his school attendance record?  Who did he hang out with?  And most importantly, why did his family wait 3 days to report him missing?  Did he disappear overnight with friends on a regular basis?

      All of these things will factor into how the police initially understood the circumstances of the shooting.  And until we know these facts, our ability to understand why the police did not immediately charge Zimmerman will be incomplete.

      From what I have been able to piece together from various accounts, Zimmerman overstepped his responsibilities as a citizen.  He should have not been following Martin.  When he reported Martin to the police he was specifically told to stop following him and not to confront him.  Zimmerman was obviously upset about the fact that he KNEW he had spotted a criminal, yet the police didn’t seem to care.  So he confronted Martin.  Apparently Martin stood his ground, and probably felt threatened by Zimmerman.  There was shouting, then a scuffle during which Martin (who was 6’3″) probably kicked Zimmerman’s ass.  Zimmerman panicked, feared for his life, and shot Martin.

      As another commenter has already remarked, the police don’t just go around arresting people based on suspicious circumstances.  An investigation can be active and ongoing even though no arrests have been made.  In a system based on presumption of innocence and due process, you investigate first, then make arrests; you don’t arrest people and have them sit in jail for weeks or months while you investigate to see whether a crime has been committed.

      • Brucehenry

        Well, that last paragraph has some good points, but the thing is, the Sanford PD gave every indication they considered the case closed until there was public pressure. If the investigation had been ongoing, they would have said so.

        Plus, this guy’s gun wasn’t even impounded. Not even temporarily. He went home from the scene with it.

        • LiberalNightmare

           Innocent ’till proven guilty.

          Thats a feature of the system, not a bug.

          • Brucehenry

            Nobody would EVER be proven guilty if every case was handled as this one was by the Sanford PD.

          •  You mean by an unbiased investigation of the facts?

      • You misstate the facts as  known.  Zimmerman left his vehicle to follow on foot when Martin, upon realizing he was being watched, pulled up his hood and took evasive action, going between buildings and the community center where a vehicle could not go.  After the dispatcher told him “we don’t need you to do that” (follow him), Zimmerman had lost him anyway and was headed back to his truck.  It was after this the confrontation occurred.

        The next evidence is two witnesses seeing Martin on top of Zimmerman beating him, and Zimmerman calling for help.  One of the witnesses went to call for help, the other ran after his dog which got loose.  Then the shot.

        The investigation at the scene confirmed Zimmerman’s version of events, and the DA reviewed the reports and declined to prosecute.  There was no ongoing investigation at the time the public protests began.  There was no need for one, as there was no evidence of any crime.

      • herddog505

        MichaelLaprarieWe also have very little information (at least AFAIK) about Martin.  Was he known to police?  Were his friends/family known to police?  What kind of student was he?  What was his school attendance record?  Who did he hang out with?  And most importantly, why did his family wait 3 days to report him missing?  Did he disappear overnight with friends on a regular basis?

        I have read that Martin’s family filed a missing person report the next morning with the police. 


        As for the rest, I’m with you.  We know quite a lot about Zimmerman, including brushes with the law, his desire to be a policeman, credit troubles, etc., but we don’t know much at all about Martin.  Perhaps there’s nothing to BE known; he may well be just an average kid with no record at all.  Apparently, he was on a ten-day suspension from school, but I’m willing to give the benefit of the doubt on that because schools have such ridiculous “zero tolerance” policies these days.

        MichaelLaprarieFrom what I have been able to piece together from various accounts, Zimmerman overstepped his responsibilities as a citizen.

        I agree.

        •  Based on what actual evidence?

          You do understand Wikipedia is subject to editing, right?  So there would be a report ON FILE, right?  You are making an entirely new accusation against the police, since they had a fresh corpse in the morgue awaiting ID, if you believe that crap.

          Three days before they called anybody.

          The most disheartening part of this incident is seeing people I thought were staunch conservatives joining the leftist lynch mob with no evidence at all.  AT ALL.

          • herddog505

            Now, now.  I merely state that I read that Martin’s family, contra to what was written by Michael Laprarie, did NOT wait three days to file the missing person report.  It may be that Wiki is in error, that the article has been (ahem) editted by somebody who either misinformed or else has devious motives, or that the source for the information in Wiki was simply incorrect.

            This is one of the many unknowns about this case.

  • “There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to
    walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about
    robbery. Then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved….
    After all we have been through. Just to think we can’t walk down our own
    streets, how humiliating.”

    • jim_m

       Thanks Jesse.

  • UOG

    To the question, is The Black Male Code good advice? Of course it is. So is the lesson you teach about not standing in the middle of an open field, or under a tree during a thunder storm. The threat to life is real, the advice is good.

    But when you make a comparative threat assessment efforts made to keep your child from involvement in gang activities and away from drugs are more likely to prolong their lives… much the same as teaching them not to be where they can see the round hole in the end of a barrel.

    Still, just because some advice will be more important than other advice that doesn’t mean you don’t need to teach the other.

  • The Black Male Code is indeed rational even if there are more black-on-black murders than white-on-black murders. The code keeps its follower from causing a difficult situation to escalate into something worse.

  • herddog505

    I wanted to know the exact figures [about intra- and interracial murders]. The most recent, those of 2009, I could find are on the site of the Department of Justice.

    PFFT!  Why look this sort of thing up?  MiniTru has decreed that we MUST have a national “conversation” about why racist white people kill innocent black people all the time.  No need to look at actual facts and figures to do that.


  • The “code” not to reach for anything but the sky when the police tell you to stop is just plain good advice for anyone.  But neither that nor the Florida “stand your ground” law has anything to do with this case.  It presents as straightforward self-defense.  

    • herddog505

      I don’t think that this is straightforward self-defense simply because we don’t know how Zimmerman came to shoot Martin.  We DO know that Zimmerman chased Martin on foot (an idiot thing to do, in my opinion).  What happened when he caught up with him is unknown.  Did:

      — Martin turn and attack Zimmerman?

      — Zimmerman attempt to tackle or otherwise subdue Martin?

      — Did Martin confront Zimmerman (“Why are you chasing me???”) and, after a brief exchange of heated words, a fight occured that led Zimmerman to shoot Martin?

      We simply don’t know.  The witnesses don’t seem to have seen how the physical altercation started, and indeed seem to have different stories about what they saw when it was over (Zimmerman on the ground, Zimmerman standing over Martin, etc.).  Was Zimmerman injured at all?  If so, how badly?  Was Martin injured other then the fatal gunshot wound?  Did he show other signs of a struggle, such as bruises, cuts, grass stains on his clothes, etc?

      •  My reply is below.  As to “how it started” – meaning the physical confrontation – we have only Zimmerman’s account of being attacked by Martin.  Sure, that’s only one side, but you can’t use speculation as probable cause for arrest.

        • herddog505

          I agree.

          My biggest issue with this whole thing, as it has been from the beginning, is MiniTru.  They are controlling what information we get, when we get it, and how it’s presented.  Further, they seem FAR more interested in “discussing” race relations than getting at the truth of a homocide.  As I’ve written before, my suspicions were aroused early when they repeatedly showed two very different photos: one of a young, smiling, happy Martin, and the other a mugshot of a glowering, menacing Zimmerman.  It seemed to me pretty glaring evidence of, if not a frameup, then at least “shading” the coverage and of a conclusion already reached, i.e. Zimmerman is a villain.

          There are so many things that are simply not known, yet people (on both sides) are basing their rock-solid opinions on speculation, what they THINK they read / heard, what seems reasonable to assume happened, etc.

  • So, are you now going to charge people on the basis of what you IMAGINE MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED?  Or on the basis of evidence itself?

    Florida law REQUIRES probable cause for an arrest, on penalty of waiving all sovereign immunity – the cop, department, and city or county can be sued for false arrest.  There was – and IS – absolutely NO evidence of any crime presented here. 

    It is CLASSIC self defense – several witnesses SAW Martin on top of Zimmerman, beating him as Zimmerman screamed for help.  Under Florida law, you are entitled to use deadly force in your own defense.

    There is NO evidence Zimmerman was a “gun-toting vigilante” as some on this very site have accused.  NONE.  He had the required concealed-carry permit. He did call 911 a total of 46 times – over ELEVEN years, NOT one as initially reported due to a typo.  Four times a year on average isn’t “obsessive” for a neighborhood watch captain in a rising crime area, is it?

    NOT ONE SHRED of actual evidence shows Zimmerman pulling his gun until after Martin is beating him, breaking his nose and bloodying the back of his head as he cried for assistance BEFORE using deadly force.

    Shame on you. 


    • herddog505

      I recall reading years ago that police DETEST various crime dramas because they give the public a very erroneous conception of normal police work.  There is especially a problem with the “CSI”-type shows: the police are supposed to not only have every piece of scientific equipment short of a tricorder to recreate what happened at the scene, but also deploy it for every incident.  So, we hear shrieks of outrage that the police didn’t do this or that at the Martin shooting scene even though few (if any) of us know what normal police procedure IS.

      • Yeah, had that speech when I went to jury duty lately.  “If you get picked, forget everything you’ve seen on CSI.  It doesn’t work like that.”

        They do what they can.  Sometimes, some questions just never get resolved.

  • mikegiles

    I find it interesting that some here are quite willing to accept that Martin attacked Zimmerman for no reason whatsoever, forcing Zimmerman to shot him. Why is that?
    Question. How long after the shooting did the police arrive? And who called them?

  • Evil Otto

    “Fascist.” You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.