Evidence Continues to Support Zimmerman’s Claim of Self Defense

Trayvon as innocent waif?  No so much.

Via Gateway Pundit (in turn via Google +) we learn that the coroner found two injuries on Trayvon Martin: broken skin on the knuckles and a single gun shot wound to the chest.

 

WTFV reported:

WFTV has confirmed that autopsy results show 17-year-old Trayvon Martin had injuries to his knuckles when he died.

The information could support George Zimmerman’s claim that Martin beat him up before Zimmerman shot and killed him.

The autopsy results come as Zimmerman’s attorney, Mark O’Mara continues to go over other evidence in the case.

O’Mara wouldn’t comment on the autopsy evidence, but WFTV legal analyst Bill Sheaffer said it’s better for the defense than it is for the prosecution.

WFTV has learned that the medical examiner found two injuries on Martin’s body: The fatal gunshot wound and broken skin on his knuckles.

 

In a non-politicized case no charges would have been filed.

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Posted by on May 15, 2012.
Filed under Justice.
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  • herddog505

    Well, obviously, the ME in the lousy little podunk town of Sanford is a RAAAAAACIST!

    No, wait!  I’ve got it!  Martin skint his knuckles getting the bag of Skittles at the 7-11!  Yeah, that’s it!

    NO!  What REALLY happened is that the racist bigot violent killer Zimmerman, after forcing the innocent Martin to drop his tea and Skittles and after gloating over him before shooting him execution-style, rubbed Martin’s knuckles on the sidewalk so he could have to blood to put on his own head to pretend that he’d been injured.

    /sarc

    HAH!  I’d like to see a lefty come up with something more stupid than THAT!

    Though, sadly, I don’t doubt that they can…

    • Guest

      Zimmerman pulled a gun on Trayvon — cause he just couldn’t let “these types” of people run around unchallenged — and Martin tried to wrestle the gun away from the racist slob and a fight ensued. The child lost the fight.

      The DA had this evidence before filing murder charges against Zimmerman. It may not be as compelling as you with it was….

      • 914

        “It may not be as compelling as you with it was….”

        Obviously, logic has no place in your lexicon…

        • http://wizbangblog.com/author/rodney-graves/ Rodney G. Graves

          Logic and grammar both seem to be terra incognito for the disputant to whom you reply, which is why I tend to ignore it, and encourage others to do so as well.

          • Guest

            it’s you they’re ignoring, Rodney.

          • http://wizbangblog.com/author/rodney-graves/ Rodney G. Graves

            Is that what 191 comments signifies in your world?

        • Guest

          meant to say “wish it was”…

          and thanks for your contribution, 914.

          • 914

            Grumpy Dumpty sat on a wall

            Grumpy Dumpy had a great fall.. Oh??

            Don’t mention it..

      • cirby

        He tried to wrestle the gun away from Zimmerman by running up to him, wrestling him to the ground, and punching him repeatedly in the face?

        So you’re contending that Martin was completely insane?  He had some sort of rage disorder or something?

        People who aren’t insane RUN AWAY from guys with guns pointed at them, or surrender.

        Also – Zimmerman was apparently really nice and too patient.  If I had a gun on someone, at night, and I thought he was a criminal, he wouldn’t get close enough to even thrown a punch, much less be able to break my nose and knock me to the ground to pound my head on the sidewalk…

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IZ5BM5GNLA54OADSWGSXAMA7SY Jay


          He tried to wrestle the gun away from Zimmerman by running up to him, wrestling him to the ground, and punching him repeatedly in the face?

          Ah, cirby was there…  Planning to testify soon?

          • EricSteel

            Use your reading comprehension skills Jay.  Cirby was questioning Grumpy’s assertion of facts not in evidence.

          • iwogisdead

            Plus, Jay stole my line. On the plus side, he didn’t misrepresent what his links really said, as has been know to happen. So, that’s progress. Of course, he didn’t actually post any links, so . . . .

          • iwogisdead

            Plus, Jay stole my line. On the plus side, he didn’t misrepresent what his links really said, as has been know to happen. So, that’s progress. Of course, he didn’t actually post any links, so . . . .

          • http://wizbangblog.com/author/rodney-graves/ Rodney G. Graves

            He was…

          • http://wizbangblog.com/author/rodney-graves/ Rodney G. Graves

            He was using his reading skills, such as they are.

          • EricSteel

            Use your reading comprehension skills Jay.  Cirby was questioning Grumpy’s assertion of facts not in evidence.

        • Guest

          No, when he saw Zimmerman pull the gun he wrestled with Zimmerman in an attempt to avoid being murdered. He failed in the regards.

          Fighting a racist asshole who pulls a gun on you and threatens just shows you have balls.

          “He tried to wrestle the gun away from Zimmerman by running up to him,
          wrestling him to the ground, and punching him repeatedly in the face?”

          Zimmerman approaches Martin,drawing his gun as he does so. Martin makes a grab for the gun, they wrestle, they fall to the ground, fists are thrown, etc.

          We have a witness who says Martin was on top of Zimmerman and we have witnesses who claim it was Martin yelling for help, not Zimmerman.

          The scenario I’ve outlined fits with those facts.

          The notion that Zimmerman jumped Martin doesn’t jive withe the witness reports that say Martin was the one calling for help.

          • Hawk_TX

             There are witnesses who have claimed both ways on who was on top and who yelled for help. But the physical evidence tells us that Martin was on top of Zimmerman. Its simple Zimmerman had to be on the ground because Martin couldn’t of been slamming his head against the sky.

          • Guest

            What I read recently was that all of the witnesses who speak of the yelling say it was Martin yelling for help, not Zimmerman.

            Do you have a link that says otherwise?

          • EricSteel

            Witness John appears to be the best eyewitness to the events.  He also appears to be the only eyewtitness to who exactly was yelling for help.  All of the other witnesses are ear witnesses and “think” that the person yelling for help was Trayvon. 

            Here is a link to his media interview the day after the shooting.
            http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation

            “The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, ‘Help! Help!’ and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911,” said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.

            John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot.
            “And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point.”

          • herddog505

            Good point.

          • Wild_Willie

            You have Martin’s own father who states the screams for help weren’t his son’s. No better judge then that.

            If Zimmerman had his gun pulled and the 6’2″ Martin charged him, battle over.

            What sane people know is that neighbor hood watch groups, which we have in my subdivision are there to watch and keep tabs until cops show. For the foolish lefties, the clue is in the title. “Watch”.

            Martin was watched, Martin didn’t like being watched for whatever reason, so Martin swelled up and acted like a punk. Never bring fists to a gun fight. ww

          • http://wizbangblog.com/author/rodney-graves/ Rodney G. Graves

            [evidence required]

      • iwogisdead

        Does the DA know that you’re a witness to this event? I think you have a duty to offer your testimony.

    • http://wizbangblog.com/author/rodney-graves/ Rodney G. Graves

      How did I just know it would be that pernicious troll who would take up your gauntlet?

      • herddog505

        He was my odds-on favorite, too.

        The “Reality-based Community” at work:

        LEFTIES: George Zimmerman murdered Trayvon Martin because he’s a racist! / Mitt Romney is a corporate raider! / Barrack Obama is a genius!

        SELF: Um, how do you know that?  Have you got any actual evidence…

        LEFTIES:  Because he IS!  We KNOW he is!

        Sheesh…

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IZ5BM5GNLA54OADSWGSXAMA7SY Jay

          Let’s look at GZ here:

          He can chase down a kid, corner a kid, and shoot him after he starts to fight back.

          How does that make any sense with the SYG laws here?

          • iwogisdead

            Oh, so you were there, too? Must have been a pretty crowded place.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IZ5BM5GNLA54OADSWGSXAMA7SY Jay

            I had the popcorn from the 7-Eleven.  Sorry, didn’t have any for you when you were there.

  • 914

    I guess the gloves didn’t fit..  Or maybe he just forgot to wear some.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/5OAUGX2WMO6CD6QADP3INSYPYU Rena

     I dont see how its better for defense then prosecution when Martin was Standing his ground period…GZ lost his privilege when he continued to follow the BOY(could of been 16 years old 20 days Pryor of death) 

    Dont seem so scary for a 28 year old men PERIOD no matter what weigh or height…

    thats prolly why the Charges the way they are and the people that take GZ side for any percent is wrong!!

    • jim_m

      For the truly blind and resistive to logic:  It helps estabish Zimmerman’s contention that he acted in self defense.  It does not in itself exonerate him, but it does support his defense.

      • Guest

        This doesn’t help Zimmerman’s case:

        Florida teenager Trayvon Martin died from a single gunshot wound to the chest fired from “intermediate range,” according to an autopsy report reviewed Wednesday by NBC News.

        The official report, prepared by the medical examiner in Volusia County, Fla., also found that the 17-year-old Martin had one other fresh injury – a small abrasion, no more than a quarter-inch  in size –  on his left ring
        finger below the knuckle.

        Looks like Zimmerman’s wounds are self-inflicted. Martin sure as hell didn’t do all that supposed damage – not with only a tiny abrasion on one finger to show for it.

        • herddog505

          Jebus.  You are REALLY going to try to claim that Zimmerman broke his own nose, blacked both his eyes, put cuts on the back of his head AND gave himself a back injury????

          George Zimmerman had a broken nose, black eyes, cuts on the back of his head and a minor back injury the day after he shot and killed Florida teenager Trayvon Martin, according to medical records compiled by his doctor, ABC News reports.

          http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/05/16/152813315/medical-report-details-george-zimmermans-injuries-abc-news-says

          • Guest

            I’m just pointing out that the evidence doesn’t support that Martin did it. 

          • herddog505

            Oh?  Then who did?  Are we to believe that Zimmerman’s wife did it and he decided to go out without fixing himself up?  Or that the ever-helpful Sanford PD showed up and helped Zimmerman frame his alibi by beating the hell out of him?*  Hey, maybe Zimmerman stuck his head in a convenient cement mixer!

            You know, I’m starting to understand why the prosecutor is proceeding with the case: either she’s got the same highly dubious grasp of logic and evidence that you’ve got, or else she’s hoping that the jurors do.

            ===

            (*) And if the police in podunk, redneck, racist, klan-kountry Sanford are so racist, why would they bother to help a Latino?

        • cirby

          You left out the fact that “intermediate range” is from 1 inch to 18 inches, and there was gunpowder stippling on Martin (in other words, within two or three inches).  It’s only “close” range if the range was under one inch.

          On the other hand, while one source claims that Martin’s autopsy showed “one additional injury,” other reports showed bloody knuckles.  The local station, WFTV, has reported the bloody knuckles, as well as other sources.  They also mentioned that responders (police and paramedics) saw the injuries to Martin’s knuckles too.  Since WFTV has been such a huge booster of “Zimmerman was a bad guy,” it’s not likely that they’d make this part up to help clear him.

          It wouldn’t surprise me if the CBS report was omitting parts of the autopsy, with the rationale of “yeah, we know about the knuckles, let’s pretend the ‘new’ injury that we didn’t report on yesterday was the only one.”

          • Guest

            Cause it isn’t 1-18 inches.

            And you say there was stipling?

            1. Contact wound: Muzzle of gun was applied to skin at time of shooting. Classic features include an impression of the muzzle burned around the entrance wound and absence of fouling and stippling (see below). Contact wounds over the skull may have a stellate appearance because of expulsion of hot gases from the barrel which are trapped against the outer table of the skull and blow back toward the exterior, ripping apart the skin around the entrance wound. 

            2. Close range (6 – 8 inches): The entrance wound is surrounded by fouling, which is soot that travels for a short distance from the gun barrel to be
            depositied on the skin. There may also be stippling (see below). 

            3. Intermediate range ( 6 – 8 inches to 1.5 – 3.5 feet): This is too far for soot to travel, so there is no fouling, but hot fragments of burning propellant
            (gunpowder) follow the bullet to the victim and produce stippling by causing pinpoint burns around the entrance wound. Of the two type of propellant, “ball” and “flake,” the former will produce stippling at a greater distance. 

            4. Distant (greater than 1.5 – 3.5 feet): This is too far for either soot or burning propellant to travel, so the wound margins are clean, with neither fouling nor stippling. Entrance versus exit wounds represents an important distinction for the forensic pathologist to make. A grand jury may look with more favor on an assailant alleging self defense, if the victim has the entrance wound on the front and the exit wound on the back, rather than vice versa. Classically, the entrance wound has a rim of abrasion surrounding the wound, because the projectile “drags” the surrounding skin into the wound a bit, abrading it along the way. The exit wound lacks this abrasion, unless the victim was braced against a wall or other solid object that may secondarily abrade the margin of the exit wound as the projectile penetrates the skin and pushes it into the wall.

            and

            An intermediate range gunshot, like that seen in the above image, can range from just beyond the 12-inch range out to 24 to 36 inches. This depends greatly upon the caliber, barrel length and powder type used in the ammunition.

            and

            In forensics there are four types of gunshot wound: Contact wound – The muzzle of the gun was applied to the skin at the time of shooting, Close Range – The muzzle of the gun was 6-8 inches away from the skin at shooting, Intermediate Range – The gun was 8 inches to 3.5 feet away, and Distant – The gun was over 3.4 feet away at the time of shooting.

            and

            Range of Fire:
            Contact: muzzle of gun touches target
            - Tight: fouling in tissue, muzzle stamp
            - Loose: fouling on skin and in tissue, searing
            Close: <6" Stippling & Fouling
            Intermediate: 6-30″ Stippling
            Distant: >30″ Neither

          • cirby

            From the Orlando Sentinel – about one hour ago:
            Trayvon’s autopsy report is included in the released documents. In it, there is a diagram that shows the gunshot wound was approximately 3/8 inches across, and the “stippling,” powder burns that come as a result of a gunshot, was approximately 2 inches in diameter.The burns are important because they prove the gun was fired from a very close range.FDLE firearms expert Amy Siewert examined Trayvon’s gray sweatshirt and gray hoodie and wrote this about the gunpowder burns: “Both holes displayed residues and physical effects consistent with a contact shot.”

          • Guest

            And yet the autopsy report describes the shot as being from an “intermediate range” — not contact, not close… intermediate.

          • cirby

            Please read for content next time, instead of whatever it is you’re doing.  

            The pistol was in contact with Martin’s clothing.  It was also an inch or two from his actual skin.  The fact that the powder burns were only two inches in diameter prove that quite conclusively – muzzle bloom from pistols enlarges dramatically with range.

            The two inch diameter powder burn shows that whatever unsourced quote you’re using is wrong.  I’d bet that it’s a set of distance gauges for a completely different jurisdiction, probably in another state.

            The three ranges used by the local police department are 

            “close” – an inch or less
            “intermediate” -1 to 18 inches
            “distant” – more than 18 inches

          • Guest

            and yet the autopsy reports doesn’t match what you’re saying.

            Don’t leave town,theyre going to need you for the trial. You can go up against the autopsy report and prove that the medical examiners are wrong…

            Cause the medical examiners say “intermediate range” and that’s 6″-3.5 feet.

             

          • cirby

            They match what I’m saying – they just don’t match what you want them to say.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/5OAUGX2WMO6CD6QADP3INSYPYU Rena

    Another Fact…If the Man was in fear of his life…Why Go pick a Fight or CONFRONTATION with someone that might whoop your Tail??? O wait! the gun was the courage GZ needed to keep going foward…

    Man Get Out of here If it was me I would had Skint Clothes, Skint hands, Skint teeth shoot even Skint hair…

    He brought the Gun for a dog….so why he out chasing people with it on him

    • GarandFan

      Zimmerman told the dispatcher he was following a suspicious subject.  Someone he did not recognize as living in the GATED community.  He later tells the dispatcher he lost sight of the subject and was returning to his car to await police.  Meanwhile, Martin is telling his girlfriend via cellphone that someone is following him.

       WHO initiated the confrontation?  Did Martin manage to ditch Zimmerman, then confront him when he saw that it was some pudgy 5-9 guy?  Martin stood 6-2.  WHO threw the first punch?

      Your levels of logic appear about par with your writing abilities.

      • Guest

        Zimmerman initiated the confrontation when he defied police orders and got out of his car and followed Martin.

        Zimmerman wasn’t “standing his ground” – he hadn’t been challenged by Martin at that point.

        Zimmerman was the aggressor. He got out of his car after Martin passed and pursued him.
         

        • GarandFan

          ” Zimmerman initiated the confrontation when he defied police orders and got out of his car and followed Martin.”

          I thought you said earlier that a car was not involved?  As to “defied police orders”.  Pray tell, in your vast legal experience, since when have police dispatchers acquired police powers?  It may have been stupid on Zimmerman’s part; it was good advice, but please – “defied”.  That’s a stretch.

          “Zimmerman wasn’t “standing his ground” – he hadn’t been challenged by Martin at that point.”

          How do you know?  And now you’re admitting that Martin “challenged” him?

          “Zimmerman was the aggressor. He got out of his car after Martin passed and pursued him.”

          So now we have a new definition of ‘aggressor’.  Following someone is aggression?  Why don’t you try “stalking”.  Be forewarned, there are legal definitions for “stalking”.  But definitions don’t appear to bother you.

  • http://wizbangblog.com/author/rodney-graves/ Rodney G. Graves

    Rena sites “facts” which are not.

    The only bruised / lacerated knuckles were Martin’s.  Martin was punching someone in the head (about the only place that will lacerate knuckles on the human body) just prior to receiving a single gunshot wound to the chest. 

    Note also the total absence of defensive wounds or other injuries on Martin.  That makes Martin the aggressor.

    Zimmerman has testified that he was headed back to his SUV per the 911 operators suggestion when he was confronted by Martin.  There is no evidence to contradict this testimony.

    All of which are congruent with Zimmerman’s testimony and eyewitness reports.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/5OAUGX2WMO6CD6QADP3INSYPYU Rena

       Look man, i dont know what T.V. station you watching but Martin Body was Not where the SUV…Not even in the direction headed back either…Because from the time he stop chasing martin to the time he got off the phone with the officer …HE should of been been back to His SUV

      didnt  Zimmerman said the Boy was Circling his car as he was on the phone with dispacther, but didnt say nothing at the time?? Stupid…N U MUST be if u beleive Stupid coming through your ears

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mark-Vargus/100001832658427 Mark Vargus

        Rena, have you seen a map of the area.  The shortest paved route from Zimmerman’s SUV to the back door that Trayvon would have used to get home goes right down the path whree the confrontation occured.  We don’t know where on that path that Zimmerman lost sight of Trayvon, but it was after dark and raining so visibility was probably rather low. 

        So the claim Zimmerman has that he was walking back to his SUV isn’t impossible.  We don’t know exactly where he was standing when he lost sight of Trayvon.

        The reported claims of the girl Trayvon was supposedly talking to on his cell phone included a comment that Trayvon said something to the effect of “I’m going to find out what this man’s problem is.”  Which suggests that your “innocent boy” did in fact confront Zimmerman, not the other way around.  And since there is no evidence that Martin was struck by any fists, the claim that he attacked first is clearly a lie.  In fact, its now going to be rather easy for a medical expert to prove that Martin was the only one throwing punches that connected.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/5OAUGX2WMO6CD6QADP3INSYPYU Rena

       And You also tellin ME<<<< that IF IIIII profile and stalk someone and they turn around, beat me up and its Kool that i shoot'em when i shouldnt of been messing with this person anwyay??

      • cirby

        If someone notices you lurking in a neighborhood that’s had a number of burglaries, and you hide your face and act suspicious, that isn’t “profiling,” it’s just “paying attention.”

        Considering that Martin was suspended from school for having burglary tools and some apparently-stolen jewelry, it was more a case of “Martin attacked Zimmerman because he interrupted a profitable evening of burglary.”

        • Digg34

          This is where you go after the grandma with the walker instead of the shady guy with crowbar and ski mask. 

          • jim_m

             Well, it certainly explains the TSA.

      • EricSteel

        Actually the answer is yes.  Zimmerman lived in the neighborhood, Trayvon did not.  Zimmerman was in the Neighborhood Watch program.  He had the right to follow Trayvon, he even had the right to confront Trayvon and ask him what he was doing in the neighborhood.  There is NOTHING illegal about that. 

        What neither Zimmerman or Trayvon had the right to do was physically assault the other person.

        If Trayvon threw the first punch, knocked Zimmerman to the ground and pounded his head into a cement sidewalk, then Zimmerman has the right to self defense.

        If Zimmerman threw the first punch, then you would be correct and Zimmerman’s right to self defense goes out the window.

        But, if Zimmerman was stalking Trayvon in order to hurt or kill him, then why call the police in the first place, who could show up at any time? 

        Edit:
        By the way, is profiling by a citizen against the law in Florida? We know as a matter of fact that the neighborhood had been experiencing a rash of burgleries. As Neighborhood Watch, Zimmerman would know that at the time of the call. And at the time of the call he saw a young man that he did not recognize walking around the neighorhood in a suspicious way after dark on a rainy night. That is criminal profiling, and even if Trayvon is black, is it illegal? And is it unreasonable because of all of the other previous burgleries in the neighborhood?

        Now, if there were no other burgleries and Zimmerman followed Trayvon for no other reason than his skin color, you might have a case for racial profiling. But even then, is racial profiling by a private citizen illegal in Florida? I don’t know.

        • http://wizbangblog.com/author/rodney-graves/ Rodney G. Graves

          Entirely logical and correct.

          Entirely wasted on the disputant you reply to.

          • Guest

            Ignore the troll…

        • Hugh_G

          If Zimmerman were stalking him to to hurt or kill him he would have been charged with first degree murder rather than second degree.

          • http://wizbangblog.com/author/rodney-graves/ Rodney G. Graves

            If the prosecutor thought they had the faintest shadow of a case against Zimmerman for stalking Martin to hurt or kill him they would have charged him with first degree murder.

            FIFY

          • Hugh_G

            I agree. That’s what I’ve said.

        • Guest

          “If Zimmerman threw the first punch, then you would be correct and Zimmerman’s right to self defense goes out the window.”

          Not necessarily. Even if Zimmerman threw the first punch you’d have to show that Martin’s reaction was in self-defense and Zimmerman’s wasn’t.

          Say that Martin told Zimmerman that he was going to gut him with a knife and started to reach into his waistband. Zimmerman would be justified in throwing a punch since he had reasonable cause to believe his life was in danger.

          • EricSteel

            But it is up to the prosecution to prove that Zimmerman started the fight and ultimately shot Trayvon “evincing a depraved mind, regardless of human life.” 

            But, if Zimmerman was on the ground getting beaten up my Trayvon Martin, and had no ability to escape, the Stand Your Ground statute is not in effect.  Zimmerman is entitled to self defense if he reasonably felt that he was in danger of serious bodily harm or death as his head is getting smashed into a concrete sidewalk.

          • Guest

            If I’m trying to wrestle a gun away from a racist asshole who is threatening my life, bashing his head on the sidewalk is certainly something I would do.

            You will admit that is a possible explanation, right?

          • EricSteel

            Not really, because there is no evidence at all that Zimmerman threatened Trayvon’s life. However, there is evidence that Trayvon bashed Zimmerman’s head into the cement, which makes the case for self defense by Zimmerman.

          • http://www.facebook.com/phil.snyder.9 Phil Snyder

            Remember, it is not up to Zimmerman to prove he is innocent.  It is up to the DA to prove that Zimmerman is guilty.  Thus, if there is a reasonable question as to whether Zimmerman started the fight or not, then Zimmerman must be found not guilty.

          • herddog505

            One would think so.  I fear, however, that the jurors MAY get the idea that they must find Zimmerman guilty to get “justice for Trayvon” or something like that.

          • Guest

            Oh, I disagree.

            The fact that Zimmerman got out of his car and pursued Martin, without and provocation by Martin, shows that Zimmerman was the aggressor.

            That loses the “stand your ground” defense. Zimmerman was on the offensive and Martin was defensive.

      • GarandFan

         Checking on someone you don’t recognize as living in your GATED community is “profiling”?

        I came home one day to find a car parked on the street between my house and my neighbors.  I didn’t recognize it as belonging to anyone nearby.  I called the local PD to check the car out.  As I waited 4 guys jumped the fence from the neighbors yard and ran to the car with a couple of pillow cases.  The cops arrived and found the house had been burglarized.

        Guess I’m guilty of “profiling” the car.  Right?

        • herddog505

          Only if they are a different ethnicity than you.

          Or wearing hoodies, apparently.

        • Guest

          Deciding a person was a criminal based on the way he looks is profiling.

          • GarandFan

             Zimmerman said he was ‘suspicious’ and that he ‘didn’t recognize him as living in the GATED community’.

            Where in the tapes did you hear “he’s a criminal”?

            Pull your head out of your ass and use your ears.

            And did I “profile” that car?

          • Guest

            He was basing his suspicion on the way Martin looked.

            Her referred to “these people”always getting away with it.

            At the point where he called 911 all he had to go on was Martin’s appearance.

            Pull your head out of your ass,GarandFan.

             

          • GarandFan

             He also said – and you IGNORE – that he did not recognize Martin as living in the GATED community.

          • Guest

            Reason enough to shoot him?

            Reason enough to call the cops just because somebody he doesn’t recognize is walking through the development?

            Reason enough to follow Martin after being told by the police not to?

            No. Just being there was not reason enough for Martin to be pursued by Zimmerman.

            Zimmerman believed Martin was bad.

            He based that on his appearance.

          • iwogisdead

            Wow, not only were you there, you were able to perform mind-reading on Zimmerman. You are amazing.

            And extremely stupid.

            Go be amazingly stupid somewhere else.

          • Guest

            It’s a fact. Zimmerman called 911 when all he had to go in was Martin’s appearance. That’s not mind reading, its a fact.

          • GarandFan

            ” He based that on his appearance.”

            Now your a mind reader?  How quaint.

          • Guest

            That’s all he had to go on — he hadn’t even talked to Martin or seen him up close.

            Too bad you go on and on about things you haven’t a clue about.It makes you do confused when you’re faced with facts like Zimmerman calling 911 when Martin was100 feet away.

          • GarandFan
        • Guest

          There wasn’t a car involved here.

          Just a black boy wearing a hoodie.

          Yes, calling the police on someone based on their race and appearance is “profiling”.

          • GarandFan

            Facts!  Grumpy don’t need no FACTS!

          • SCSIwuzzy

            He was talking about his house, a strange car, when his neighbor was robbed.  Not the Martin case.  Breath.  Read, Breath.  Reply

    • Guest

      Stop lying Rodney.

      Florida teenager Trayvon Martin died from a single gunshot wound to the chest fired from “intermediate range,” according to an autopsy
      report reviewed Wednesday by NBC News.

      The official report, prepared by the medical examiner in Volusia County, Fla., also found that the 17-year-old Martin had one other fresh injury – a small
      abrasion, no more than a quarter-inch  in size –  on his left ring finger below the knuckle.

      Zimmerman shot Martin from some distance.

      Martin’s autopsy doesn’t not show “lacerated knuckles”-why would you lie about something like that? 

      .”Martin was punching someone in the head (about the only place that will
      lacerate knuckles on the human body) just prior to receiving a single
      gunshot wound to the chest. “

      So the absence of lacerated knuckles shows that your story is baseless lies.

      But go ahead and post a link to a report that shows Martin has “lacerated knuckles” Roidney, and be quick about it.

      here’s mine, where’s yours? http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/16/11736208-trayvon-martin-killed-by-single-gunshot-fired-from-intermediate-range-autopsy-shows?chromedomain=openchannel&lite

      • Hawk_TX

         Before getting to excited you should find out what constitutes intermediate range. The articles online says “The gunshot wound entrance was from a bullet fired from “intermediate
        range,” or two-to-four inches, “a soot ring abrasion and a two-inch by
        two-inch area of stippling” on his body.”

        Two to four inches would be consistent with Zimmerman shooting Martin while Martin was on top of him.

        • herddog505

          Bob Owens has more on this:

          All other media accounts, including those citing police officers at the scene, refer to damage on Trayvon Martin’s  knuckles… plural.

          NBC also uses the phrase “intermediate range,” a very precise forensic term referring to the patterning of powder burns at a range of 6-40 inches… inside arm’s length, which is consistent with Zimmerman’s defense. They refuse to explain this distance in their article. Was this done in the hope of misleading people who would infer “intermediate range” means “medium distance” in an effort to deceive the public?

          http://www.bob-owens.com/2012/05/nbc-didnt-fire-enough-trayvon-martin-story-spinners/

          Now, I’m willing to cut NBC a little slack:

          1.  Knuckle, knuckles, what’s the difference, right?

          2.  Can we really expect j-school grads – who basically go to school to learn how to write complete sentences, something most people learn by second grade – to understand or even care about the definition of a precise forensic term?  Further, there are numbers involved, something that would confuse if not outright scare off the average journalist.

          Here’s some background on “intermediate range” gunshot wounds:

          In intermediate-range wounds, the muzzle is held away from the skin but close enough that it still produces powder tattooing. This type of wound is also characterized by numerous reddish-brown to orange-red lesions around the entrance to the wound.

          http://www.relentlessdefense.com/forensics/gunshot-wounds/

          An intermediate range gunshot, like that seen in the above image, can range from just beyond the 12-inch range out to 24 to 36 inches. This depends greatly upon the caliber, barrel length and powder type used in the ammunition.

          http://www.firearmsid.com/A_distanceResults.htm

          There apparently were powder marks on Martin’s clothes:

          State crime analysis of Martin’s clothes includes gun powder residue which could indicate the distance between  the men.

          http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57436083-504083/trayvon-martin-shooting-autopsy-results-say-slain-teen-had-injuries-to-his-knuckles/

          Oh, and it seems that Zimmerman (either before or after he stuck his head in a cement mixer) thought to roll about on the ground:

          A source also told CBS News an unreleased police report noted Zimmerman’s sweatshirt had “grass stains, and was wet on the back.”

          And, finally:

          A responder at the crime scene told CBS News that he and others saw wounds on the knuckles of one of Martin’s hands as he lay dead on this lawn. This suggests that Martin had thrown a punch.

          In fairness, however, the expert testimony of the ME, who could make his examination in a leisurely fashion in a lab setting, is a bit more conclusive that that of a responder who saw the body on a dark, rainy night while it lay in the grass.

          It would be of some interest to know the path the bullet took through Martin’s body.  Is it at an angle consistent with Zimmerman firing up at him?  Or is it essentially level, which could indicate that Zimmerman and Martin were both standing when the shot was fired?

  • 914

    Zimmerman had 2 black eyes, a broken nose and lacerations on his  skull..  Must have been skinning Trayvons knuckles with his head ..  Seems like George was jumped from behind by the young lass..

    • Guest

      Florida teenager Trayvon Martin died from a single gunshot wound to
      the chest fired from “intermediate range,” according to an autopsy
      report reviewed Wednesday by NBC News.

      The official report,
      prepared by the medical examiner in Volusia County, Fla., also found
      that the 17-year-old Martin had one other fresh injury – a small
      abrasion, no more than a quarter-inch  in size –  on his left ring
      finger below the knuckle.

      Wow, Martin did all that damage and only had a tiny abrasion to show for it?

      Hahahahahahahahahaha-oh, baby… that’s funny.

  • Guest

    I look forward to seeing this evidence introduced at trial.

    • herddog505

      Raises a good point: given MiniTru’s abominable record in reporting on this sad affair so far, who knows whether the ME actually DID find what they claim?

      • Guest

        Moreover, I’ve stopped lending credence to most of the leaks. Each of them seemed calibrated to the agenda of one partisan or another, aimed to swing public opinion rather than to shed light on the case.

        • herddog505

          Yes.  This business of trying cases in the media, usually before the jury notices are even mailed, is not only ridiculous but borders on a miscarriage of justice.  Don’t know if it’s legal or not, but it seems to me that the judges ought to firmly inform the lawyers, “If I hear, see or read one damned PEEP in the media about ‘evidence’ that you supposedly have, your arguments, or why you think the accused is or isn’t guilty, I’ll slap such a fine for contempt on you that your GRANDCHILDREN will be paying it off!  This trial will be conducted in the courtroom before me and the jury and NOWHERE else.”

          • Guest

            Trying a case in the media is completely wrong. But at the same time, I don’t blame Trayvon Martin’s family for using the media to shine a spotlight on this case. I suspect that if somebody shot one of my family members and I didn’t think justice was done, I would take to the media if I weren’t satisfied with what I heard from the law-enforcement apparatus.
            But that’s understandable. It’s about family.

            But the problem with going to the media is that things can rapidly spin out of control.

    • http://wizbangblog.com/author/rodney-graves/ Rodney G. Graves

      Absent blockbuster evidence supporting the prosecution, this case should end in pre-trial motions with a dismissal for lack of evidence.

      • Guest

        Hahahahahahahahaaaa….oh,the laughs continue.

        Don’t worry, rodney. Nobody except me reads what you write – so no need to feel embarrassed.

    • UOG

       For me, if ABC’s reporting is factual, this information raises a serious question as to the basis of the Zimmerman indictment. All I’ve read about from the prosecution’s side is “inconsistencies” in Zimmerman’s statements. It seems that skinned knuckles and the list of Zimmerman’s injuries after a physical confrontation where he ultimately shot the other person would require some pretty substantial “inconsistencies” in those statements to warrant an indictment.

      Taken with the chief investigator’s statements at that hearing I question why this ABC sourced information would ever need to be entered in evidence at a trial… at least a trial of George Zimmerman.

    • 914

      We can also unfortunately, look forward to Sharpton and Jesse Jerkson with a bullhorn outside the courthouse calling for justice the Rodney King way..

  • Stan Brewer

    The left wants to have a race war. The main agitators are the race pimps and the state controlled media (redundant) They will do anything to achieve their goal. Even fabricate evidence to blame the whites. ala Al Sharpton. No matter what exculpatory evidence that is brought into the picture, the left and the race baiters will always believe that Trayvon Martian was the innocent 12 year old boy, who’s photos was shown on all the state controlled media outlets.

    • McGehee

      The left wants to have a race war.

      If so, their intended cannon fodder ought to take a look at the reasons why the South lost the Civil War:

      1.) They were outnumbered.

      2.) In terms of werewithal to support the war effort, they were outclassed.

      3.) They were wrong, a factor not to be dismissed lightly.

      Now, in the event of a race war between those of distinct differences in epidermal melanin, which side more closely resembles that situation? If I were being told by the Left, “Let’s you and him fight,” I’d reply, “You first.”

    • SCSIwuzzy

      Not all of the left, but there are folks that benefit from this kind of thing to be sure.

      • herddog505

        Yes.

  • Hugh_G

    It’s pretty simple actually. Who was the aggressor? If there’s evidence Zimmerman was he may be found guilty. If there’s evidence it was Martin he will be acquitted.

    There are a lot of witnesses listed. My guess is that may be where the question of the aggressor will be answered.

    • 914

      Yes, well it would appear Zimmerman was the aggressor, pummeling Martins knuckles that way.. Now if he were in a cage match and was being paid to take a beating it would make a little sense?  For shits and giggles, not so much..

      • Guest

        Martin had a slight abrasion on one finger.

        But maybe if you keep repeating falsehoods someone will believe them.

        • Guest

          It’s in the autopsy report.

          Amazing how some people cling to lies when the truth is right in front of them….

    • Guest

      No, two questions:

      1)  Who was the aggressor?
      2)  Who escalated the confrontation?

    • Guest

      No, two questions:

      1)  Who was the aggressor?
      2)  Who escalated the confrontation?

  • Hugh_G

    That’s a piece of evidence, yes. But it isn’t conclusive of anything in and of itself. 

    Lets just suppose one person jumped another but the other person got the best of him. That doesn’t make that person the aggressor. It’s who initiated the physical confrontation. I think that will depend on witness testimony.

    • 914

      Well I guess in that scenario, why would Zimmerman not have just simply pulled a gun on Trayvon without notifying police? Or are you hypothesizing  Zimmerman liked to beat up young men just for the hell of it?  

      I think that record, if it existed? Would have been played  over and over by the MSM  and it would be goodbye George..

      • Hugh_G

        Well, like I’ve said before on other posts. When all the facts are in at the trial we’ll all know the truth. Meanwhile lets take a piece of evidence here and there here and there and just fit it into our pre-conceived view and bias. Both sides are guilty of that.

        • Guest

          Admissible facts, Hugh.

          • Hugh_G

            Not to quibble here but if the “facts are in at the trial” they have been admitted in evidence.

    • cirby

      Let’s see… we have one person who has all of the “beating victim” damage (broken nose, black eyes, cut on the back of his head), and one person with all of the “punching” damage (cuts on his knuckles).

      Yeah, that pretty much DOES make one person the aggressor.

      • 914

         In the race hustling game, logical facts need not apply!

      • herddog505

        In fairness, not necessarily.  Allow me to propose the following scenario:

        Let’s suppose that Zimmerman, when he encountered Martin, was verbally aggressive and either shoved or attempted to physically detain Martin (“You aren’t getting away this time, punk!”).  Martin then decks Zimmerman, breaking his nose (not bad for a small, studious, smiling pre-teen, eh?).  Zimmerman falls backwards onto the sidewalk, cutting his head.  In a daze and fearing that Martin will keep hitting him, he draws and fires.

        This, I think, explains the evidence that we have and, IMO, would make Zimmerman the aggressor as he (in this scenario) was the first person to make physical contact.

        • cirby

          Except, of course, the problem of the actual eyewitnesses, who saw Martin astride Zimmerman, hitting him.

          Oops.

          • Guest

            And the other witnesses who say it was Treyvon screaming for help, not Zimmerman. Multiple witnesses have said that.

            Oops.

            (Rodney, multiple means “more than one”.

          • cirby

            Not so much.  The only persons who claimed Martin was screaming for help were his mother (who originally said it wasn’t him, but changed her mind after hiring lawyers) and one woman who saw part of the confrontation but was in her house when she heard someone yelling for help.

            The one witness who saw the actual fight said Zimmerman was the one who was yelling for help, not Martin.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IZ5BM5GNLA54OADSWGSXAMA7SY Jay

            Wrong.  There was a woman from the second story that saw Zimmerman on top of Martin.  Nothing had changed in their positions and there is no blood on Zimmerman from “being on top of Martin”.  So again, how do you believe that Zimmerman was having his head pounded in when the facts don’t add up?

          • iwogisdead

            Are you talking about the woman who claimed that the black man was standing after the shooting? The one who gave one statement to police and a contradictory one to some talk show?

            Why don’t you do what you usually do–post a link and then misrepresent what is said in the link?

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IZ5BM5GNLA54OADSWGSXAMA7SY Jay

            Where’s your evidence of this?  You have shown nothing but stated something as fact.  Why don’t you post a link and prove where your evidence is coming from?

          • Guest

            No, actually there are several witnesses who claimed they heard Martin yelling for help.

            And no witness saw the actual fight. One witness says he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman and that he then turned and went into the house to call the police. Martin was shot at close range, there were powder burns on his clothes. He could have been on top of Zimmerman trying to wrestle the gun away from him.

          • EricSteel

            Correction, there are several witnesses who speculate that they heard Trayvon Martin calling for help. Since none of them ever heard Trayvon’s voice it is not definitive that they heard Martin calling for help.

          • cirby


            And no witness saw the actual fight. One witness says he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman”

            You’re insane.

            “Naah, they were’t fighting – Zimmerman was choking on something, and Martin was trying to pound it out of his mouth by punching his nose.  He just missed.  A lot.”

          • http://www.rustedsky.net JLawson

            Hell of a way to clear the air passage…  

            What’s next?  Martin thought Zimmerman was having a heart attack and attempted CPR?

          • Guest

            Since first hearing the calls in early March, Martin’s mother, Sybrina
            Fulton, has been unequivocal in saying that it was her son’s voice on
            the tapes.

          • cirby

            Let’s continue the quote – the part you conveniently left out:

            //
            But Serino wrote in a report that he played a 911 call for Martin’s father, Tracy, in which the screams are heard multiple times.
            “I asked Mr. Martin if the voice calling for help was that of his son,” the officer wrote. “Mr. Martin, clearly emotionally impacted by the recording, quietly responded `no.”‘
            Zimmerman’s father also told investigators that it was his son yelling for help on March 19.
            //

            …after the Martin family hired those lawyers – the same ones who claimed, early on, that there were two gunshots (there weren’t, by any stretch).

            You need to remember that this is a local story for me – I get deluged in press coverage about it.  You’re just doing Google searches to find phrases that seem to back you up – and then you don’t even notice that the rest of the actual story counters your own arguments…

          • Guest

            Let’s revisit your statement:

            The only persons who claimed Martin was screaming for help were his
            mother (who originally said it wasn’t him, but changed her mind after
            hiring lawyers)

            Ooops!

            Since first hearing the calls in early March, Martin’s mother, Sybrina
            Fulton, has been unequivocal in saying that it was her son’s voice on
            the tapes.

            Feel free to quote something that backs your claim that she originally said it wasn’t her son but changed her mind after she hired lawyers.

            After all, it’s a local story for you and you get deluged in press coverage. It should be easy for you to produce this….

            thanks!

          • cirby

            …and your sources are…?  You know, each time you leave out the source (or even a good reference) for those big blocks of text, you just show that you know how weak your arguments are…

            And, once again, you left out the part about his dad calmly and seriously saying it WASN’T his son – while the Zimmermans have all been adamant that it was George screaming for help.

          • Guest

            And did you produce the source of your claim that Martin’s mother first said it wasn’t her son?

            Why, no you didn’t. You just changed the subject instead.

            tsk tsk… is there a reason why you’re changing the subject cirby?

            weak sauce, perhaps?

          • cirby

            All right- I can’t find the source for that.  It happened over three months back, and I can’t dig up the original story from the thousands of badly-written and excerpted quotes on the internet since then.

            However, we have his father, who said it wasn’t his son.  That pretty much trumps his mother, who’s busily trademarking his name for the merchandising rights.

            We have the police, who say Zimmerman’s injuries were consistent with being beaten up.

            We have Martin’s drug use, and his overall history.

            …and we have the rest of the autopsy report.

            So far, you’re about one for twelve for the week.  And you think that’s a win?

          • 914

            You mean Traivon was screaming for help with him beating up George?  Seems like he was doing ok all by himself till the bullet appeared.

          • Guest
          • ravenshrike

             It’s actually somewhat difficult to abrade your knuckles on somebody’s face. In any case there is no description of whether the wound is toward the palm side or outside of the finger. If it’s nearer the palm side that would almost certainly be explained by him  having grabbed the gun when it went  off, causing the gun to fail to cycle properly and explaining the spent casing in the chamber. You can get friction injuries from doing that, or small cuts depending on the gun design.

          • 914

            Don’t be a moron… Oops! Too late!

          • SCSIwuzzy

            Ever been in a fist fight?  If you connect along the mouth, you’ll get “fight bite”.  On the forehead, brow and cheekbones you’ll pulp your knuckles after a good couple of hits.  On the nose and cheeks, they’ll give way before your fists.

            And that is if you are hitting with a closed, empty fist (not something I would recommend if you like your hands BTW)

            We don’t have enough data to determine anything, other than:

            a) Martin had a minor wound on his hand
            b) Zimmerman had a busted nose, bruising around the eyes and abrasion on the back of his head.

            Since none of us have seen the actual coroners report, I think it is premature to claim “aha!” in either direction.

            It can take hours to days for bruises to form on living tissue, depending on the severity of damage, health, age, nutrition and skin tone (albinos show bruises quicker than the rest of us).  A cut or abraision may be evidence of hitting some one or something, bruises a more sure thing, but dead tissue doesn’t bruise the same way as live tissue.

          • herddog505

            I thought about that.  When I concocted my scenario, I tried to limit it to things that are (or, as well as we know, seem to be!) indisputable:

            — The two met

            — Zimmerman was injured

            — Martin (if one can believe MiniTru) had skint knuckles

            — Martin is dead, shot by Zimmerman

            The witness reports, to the extent they’ve been thoroughly and honestly reported, seem contradictory, so I didn’t include them.

      • Guest

        We have one person dead and multiple witnesses who heard him (Martin) not Zimmerman, calling for help-someone please help me. Seconds later the gun went off

        and a child was dead.

        Oh, but he’s a black child- so in the minds of some he deserved to die.

        • cirby

          Except, of course, that your first sentence is false.

          I know it’s part of “the narrative,” but it’s not backed up by anything resembling facts.  

          A lot of it came from those two “voice experts” (actually nothing of the sort) who “analyzed” the 911 tapes, and claimed that it wasn’t Zimmerman.  They both turned out to be pretty much making it up as they went along.

          The one eyewitness who actually SAW the confrontation said it was Zimmerman.

          A couple of “earwitnesses” heard the yelling from inside of their homes.  One of them thinks it was Trayvon, but she never actually saw anything.  The real kicker is that. while the guy who actually saw something said it was ZImmerman, none of the other “witnesses” heard more than one person screaming for help.

          Therefore, nobody heard Trayvon Martin at all.

          Note also that Martin’s mother said it was NOT him when she first heard the tapes, and only changed her mind after hiring lawyers…

          Your last sentence is also an invention of the left-wing fever swamp – it’s what they WANT the other side to believe, but it’s even more of a lie.

        • 914

          “Oh, but he’s a black child- so in the minds of some he deserved to die”

          That would  be  abortion supporting lefties… Go haunt them…

      • Guest

        Florida teenager Trayvon Martin died from a single gunshot wound to the chest fired from “intermediate range,” according to an autopsy
        report reviewed Wednesday by NBC News.

        The official report, prepared by the medical examiner in Volusia County, Fla., also found that the 17-year-old Martin had one other fresh injury – a small abrasion, no more than a quarter-inch  in size –  on his left ring finger below the knuckle.

        Looks like Zimmerman’s injuries may have been self-inflicted– because the evidence you cite to support your claim,cirby, is missing. Martin’s knuckles were not cut up.

    • EricSteel

      Jeralyn Merritt at http://www.talkleft.com has been following this case closely.  She brings an intersting point of view as a criminal defense lawyer and is a left winger.  She made a good point.  Based on the law, even if Zimmerman threw the first punch, it doesn’t throw out his self defense claim.  Before shooting Trayvon, he would have a duty to retreat before using deadly force.  If however, he was prevented from retreating, by say having a 6’2″ young man sitting on his chest and pounding his head into a cement sidewalk, then he would still have grounds for self defense if he reasonably believed that he was going to receive serious bodily injury or death as a result of the fight.

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IZ5BM5GNLA54OADSWGSXAMA7SY Jay

        Eric, I’m sure you’ve seen the injuries.  The lacerations are miniscule.

        • EricSteel

          You don’t have to have a laceration at all to die from a head injury. Internal bleeding will kill you.

          But the fact is that Zimmerman’s injuries exist, and show that he was indeed injured, did have a broken nose and black eyes, and now we find out that Trayvon’s knuckles were injured too.  A few weeks ago you were denying that Zimmerman was injured at all and that the funeral director said there were no injuries on Trayvon’s hands.  Yet another meme destroyed, but thanks for moving the goal posts again as a result.

          • herddog505

            I am reminded of a story I read years ago:

            A police officer saw a burglar and gave chase.  The burglar fired several shots until the officer returned fire, wounding the villain and the arresting him.  The DA charged the burglar with, among other things, attempted murder.

            The jury found the villain “not guilty” on that charge:

            “We thought that, if he had REALLY been trying to kill the officer, he would have fired all the bullets in his gun.”

            I don’t understand how some people think, I really don’t.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IZ5BM5GNLA54OADSWGSXAMA7SY Jay

            You’re adding injuries.

            Broken nose seemed straight, no blood on his shirt, and nothing to indicate he was on the pavement being pounded. If anything, it indicates he may have been on top, possibly trippin on the drugs he took and fired point blank into Martin’s chest.

            Also, I couldn’t see the injuries so don’t make up crap I didn’t say. They were miniscule. No touchdown here, you’ve yet to go past the 50 yard line. Run that play again.

          • SCSIwuzzy

            You’re adding bullshit.  Where’s the evidence that either party was tripping on drugs, or had a history of drug use?

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IZ5BM5GNLA54OADSWGSXAMA7SY Jay

            Zimmerman had Adderall and one other drug I can’t remember.

            Funny that you talk about this… How come the police didn’t do a toxicology report on Zimmerman instead of Martin?  Oh yeah… 

          • iwogisdead

            Probably that whole Fourth Amendment thingy, doncha think?

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IZ5BM5GNLA54OADSWGSXAMA7SY Jay

            Right, so the 4th Amendment allows Martin to be used as a dead experiment while Zimmerman isn’t.  What utter tripe from you.

          • SCSIwuzzy

            His Dr gave him a Rx, and that means he was tripping?
            That is a stretch, even for you

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IZ5BM5GNLA54OADSWGSXAMA7SY Jay

            Do keep up the bulldogging when the Dr gave it to him much later than the incident.

          • SCSIwuzzy

            It’s your contention that Zimmerman was tripping, not mine. Your only evidence is that a Dr wrote him an Rx. Now you’re hurting your argument even more if the prescription is from after the incident. For an insomnia drug. Don’t know why someone that has a bounty on his head, living in fear and had the traumatic experience of killing someone would have trouble sleeping…

          • cirby

            The last time I broke my nose, it popped right back in, as straight as it ever was.  I also changed my shirt, just like Zimmerman did.

            The black eyes I got showed up the next afternoon.

            Oh – and the concussion I got could easily have killed me when I slept that night – and the only external evidence you would have seen at that point was a slightly swollen nose.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IZ5BM5GNLA54OADSWGSXAMA7SY Jay

            Wait, what?  When did Zimmerman change his shirt?  During a police interrogation?  Your facts don’t line up at all.

          • EricSteel

            “Your facts don’t line up at all.”

            When have yours?
            Was it when you claimed that Zimmerman had no injuries?
            Was it when you incorrectly claimed that Trayvon’s had no injuries on his hands?
            Was it when you claimed that the Police department was lying in the police report?
            Was it when you claimed that Zimmerman called 911 46 times in one year?
            Was it when you incorrectly claimed that he was never questioned by the police?
            Was it when you were claiming that Zimmerman outweighed Trayvon by 100 lbs?

          • herddog505

            Don’t be too hard on Jay: he is hardly the only person on this blog who was making such claims.  And, in all fairness, MiniTru’s reporting has been so bloody awful, there have been so many rumors, suppositions, and half-truths published, that it’s very hard to really know what we know.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IZ5BM5GNLA54OADSWGSXAMA7SY Jay

            Who the hell reads Minitru?  You keep bringing it up but I’ve never read it.  But keep up the baseless attacks against them.  They must have hurt you really badly.

          • EricSteel

            Jay, go read George Orwell’s 1984. MiniTru is the shortened name for the Ministry of Truth.

          • 914

            Yes, guilty on all counts..

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IZ5BM5GNLA54OADSWGSXAMA7SY Jay

            Eric, this is the perfect example of YOU moving the goal posts.  

            Was it when you claimed that Zimmerman had no injuries?

            He didn’t have a broken nose nor did he have blood on his shirt on the day in question.

            Was it when you incorrectly claimed that Trayvon’s had no injuries on his hands?

            I’m taking that with a grain of salt since you still don’t know where they are.

            Was it when you claimed that the Police department was lying in the police report?

            Because they are?  They were leading Zimmerman and a narcotics officer approached Zimmerman not a homicide detective.  

            Was it when you claimed that Zimmerman called 911 46 times in one year?

            That’s not a claim, that’s a fact and easily backed up by looking at the records released.  Why the obnoxious denial of what’s occurred?

            Was it when you incorrectly claimed that he was never questioned by the police?

            Where did I say that?  

            Was it when you were claiming that Zimmerman outweighed Trayvon by 100 lbs?

            I do so love that when new facts came to light you can’t accept new facts and all and have to stick to some moral high ground that never exists.  Go ahead, I’m waiting for you to show that Martin was heavier than Zimmerman.

          • EricSteel

            Jay simply put, you are either a liar or are delusional.
            George Zimmerman was injured during the incident.  There is a contemporaneous police report stating that, there is a cell phone picture taken minutes after the shooting that shows Zimmerman with a bloody head, and now we have his doctor’s report staying that he had a broken nose and lacerations.  We argued abut this weeks ago.  Any the only thing that has happened since is that MORE evidence has come forward to show that he was injured.  The fact that you continue to deny that he was injured is extraordinary.
            http://www.examiner.com/slideshow/george-zimmerman-1#slide=46202166
            “I’m taking that with a grain of salt since you still don’t know where they are.” 
            That’s called moving the goalpost, when you previosly denied that any injuries existed at all.  The ME is saying that Trayvon had at least one injury to his hand.
            “That’s not a claim, that’s a fact and easily backed up by looking at the records released.  Why the obnoxious denial of what’s occurred”
            Because you are wrong!  Zimmerman made 46 calls since 2004, not in one year.  He was also the Neighborhood Watch guy, so he would be making a lot of calls.http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/17/2700249/trayvon-martin-shooter-a-habitual.html
            “Was it when you incorrectly claimed that he was never questioned by the police? Where did I say that? ”
            If it wasn’t you, then I stand corrected.  I may be misremembering who made that particular claim.
            The simple fact is Jay that there has been a lot of misreporting about this story.  But it seems that the lion’s share of mistakes have been made to make Zimmerman look bad.
            I don’t know if he is guilty, but the evidence I have seen so far doesn’t support guilt beyond a reasonable doubt for me.  I am open to evdence that makes him look guilty.  Show me where it is? 

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IZ5BM5GNLA54OADSWGSXAMA7SY Jay


            There is a contemporaneous police report stating that, there is a cell phone picture taken minutes after the shooting that shows Zimmerman with a bloody head, and now we have his doctor’s report staying that he had a broken nose and lacerations.

            Why take a picture of the back of his head but nothing for the front?  If he had a broken nose, why is his shirt not bloody?  If his head is being pounded, why is there only two tiny lacerations where he bled

            Is that so hard to find an answer to? 

            Further, you’re going to tell me that he shot Martin from Martin being on top of him?  The trajectory does not match up.  He was shot through the heart, meaning it may have been the other way around, Zimmerman being on top of Martin.  By no means did I deny he was injured.  I just said they’re miniscule.  Huge difference in wording.

            The simple fact is Jay that there has been a lot of misreporting about this story.

            Agreed that there’s a lot more to this story.  Something that’s just come up is how Zimmerman was taking Adderall and Tamazepam which may have given him behavioral mood swings.

          • EricSteel

            There is a contempoaneous picture of Zimmerman’s face. It was released yesterday. It was a cellphone pic taken by a police officer at the scene and shows Z with a swollen nose and blood on his face.

            Jay several weeks ago you were denying that Z was injured at all. Now we know for absolute fact that he was injured. And now you are moving the goal posts by saying, they aren’t serious enough.

            What trajectory evidence are you talking about? Trayvon was shot at point blank range in the chest.

            There is ZERO evidence that Zimmerman was on top of Martin. There is eyewitness testimony that Trayvon Martin had Zimmerman pinned down and was pounding Z’s head into the pavement moments before the shooting.

            Now you are talking about Prescription drugs. Dude, It just makes you look desperate and reaching.

          • 914

            You can have a broken nose that is still straight. I know  because mine was broken in a car accident but is still straight. Never set.

            How do you know they were ‘miniscule ‘ if you did not see them? Quit grasping at straws..

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IZ5BM5GNLA54OADSWGSXAMA7SY Jay

            You didn’t see the pictures?  His head bled a lot but the actual wound is nothing more than pebble size.  Quit making baseless arguments.

            Also, if you can explain the shirt not having Martin’s blood on it, it’s gladly appreciated.

          • 914

            http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/120517105402-zimmerman-head-story-body.jpg

            The blood was following gravity’s rules and dripping on the ground..

            Next question?

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IZ5BM5GNLA54OADSWGSXAMA7SY Jay

            Still haven’t answered how the blood didn’t get on Martin or his own shirt.

          • EricSteel

            Jay you are doing everything you can to cherry pick inconclusive evidence, even if it is contrary to strong conclusive strong evidence, just to keep the narrative alive. At this point it is starting to look pathetic.

            An eyewitness has stated that Zimmerman was on his back and Trayvon Martin was raining blows on Zimmerman “MMA style”. There is no evidence that those positions were swapped.

            I explained to you weeks ago that the blood evidence you want is not conclusive. Trayvon Martin had two shirts on, they could absorb blood from the gunshot instead of it getting on Zimmerman.

    • http://www.rustedsky.net JLawson

      And we don’t have any ‘witnesses’ as such.  From what I’ve read, they’re calling in a lot of people who weren’t anywhere in the area as ‘witnesses’.

      Which seems kind of strange to me.  How can you have a witness that wasn’t there?  Character witnesses, sure – and I’m certain we’ll be hearing how Trayvon was so saintly he stopped and helped little old ladies cross the street, and he’d roam the local beaches  looking to throw starfish back into the water in between delivering “Meals on Wheels”…

      But actual ‘witnesses’?  They seem notably lacking, for some reason.

      • Hugh_G

        Once again, I don’t know that anymore than anyone else does. The trial will bring the truth. Or, if the prosecutor decides she doesn’t have a case hopefully she’ll do the right thing.

        • Stan Brewer

           The prosecutor dropping the case is very much out of the question for her. She has what is left of her reputation at stake. If she drops the case against Zimmerman, she will be vilified by the left and their puppets — Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton et al. and her hopes of a major political career are good as toast. She wouldn’t be able to get elected as dogcatcher.

          • Hugh_G

            Once again, you don’t know that any more than anyone else does.

            I’m not suggesting she’s going to do it, just saying it would be the right thing to do if believes she doesn’t have a case. Maybe she’s thinking a pre-trial adjudication will be held allowing Zimmerman his defense. But everything we talk about now is nothing more than speculation.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IZ5BM5GNLA54OADSWGSXAMA7SY Jay

            Given her history, I doubt she’ll drop it.  She has an “Old school” mentality to her which means she’s very, VERY harsh in her sentencing if need be.

            Given that she just prosecuted a woman who shot the ceiling and was actually standing her ground, I doubt you’ll find her offering sympathy for Zimmerman.

          • ravenshrike

             She shot the wall(it went through the wall into the ceiling) after ranting for a good 5 minutes at somebody while waving the gun around. SYG my ass.

      • 914

        If only pry bars could talk..

  • IMSOTIREDOFIT123

    Why do all  the TV anchors use the 12-year old picture of the juvenile deliquent Tray-Von?
    Why not show the pictures of his tatooted gang-banger days?

    OHHH that would be Pro-Filing!

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_AXDLBHGWBWIDXWT2LH62AO7I4M Real American

    It’s murder the kid was shot from intermediate range. I can’t believe the right is so amoral as to defend this scumbag Zimmerman. obviously they don’t care about justice. 

    • Hawk_TX

       Intermediate range is two to four inches. Which is completely consistent wit h Zimmerman’s claim of self defense.

      • EricSteel

        Intermediate Range is between 6 and 40 inches and is also influenced by a number of factors such as clothing, caliber of gun, barrel length, ammunition used.

      • SCSIwuzzy

        Usually I’ve seen intermediate range to mean close enough to have powder residue on the target, but not in the wound itself.  This varies based on the caliber, variety of ammo used, barrel length and other factors.  Intermediate range for a .22 snub is a lot short than a 12 gauge slug, as extreme examples.

    • 914

      Nice of you to be judge and jury Mr. prosecutor…  The world of kool aid must be a very nice place indeed..

    • EricSteel

      Unlike you, we do care about justice.  You however, have already decided that Zimmerman doesn’t deserve the American tradition of innocent until proven guilty, you have already decided that he is guilty. 

      Much of the evidence that has been brought forward in this case has been BULLSHIT!  It is not a foregone conclusion that George Zimmerman is guilty.  It is entirely conceivable that Trayvon Martin beat George Zimmerman’s head against a cement walkway until Zimmerman had no other choice but to use deadly force or be killed himself.  That is self defense, and has nothing to do with standing your ground.

      If the prosecution is able to prove otherwise and the evidence shows beyond a reasonable doubt that he is guilty, then I have no problem with him going to jail for the rest of his life.

      Somehow, I don’t think there is any evidence that will convince you that he could be not-guilty.

      In which case, who is the amoral one?

  • herddog505

    And the hits just keep coming in…

    Two police reports written the night that George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin said that Zimmerman had a bloody face and nose, according to police reports made public today.

    The reports also note that two witness accounts appear to back up Zimmerman’s version of what happened when they describe a man on his back with another person wearing a hoodie straddling him and throwing punches.

    In addition, Trayvon Martin’s father told an investigator after listening to 911 tapes that captured a man’s voice frantically callling for help that it was not his son calling for help.

    Witnesses, whose names were redacted from the report, also lent support to Zimmerman’s version of what happened.

    “He witnesses a black male, wearing a dark colored ‘hoodie’ on top of a white or Hispanic male and throwing punches ‘MMA (mixed martial arts) style,” the police report of the witness said. “He then heard a pop. He stated that after hearing the pop, he observed the person he had previously observed on top of the other person (the male wearing the hoodie) laid out on the grass.”

    A second witness described a person on the ground with another straddling him and throwing punches. The man on the bottom was yelling for help, the witness told police.
    The documents state that Zimmerman can be heard yelling for help 14 times on a 911 call recorded during the fight.

    The autopsy also shows that Zimmerman shot Martin from a distance of between 1 inch and 18 inches away, bolstering Zimmerman’s claim that he shot Martin during a close struggle.

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-documents-released-shooting-george-zimmerman/story?id=16371852#.T7VzdmgTtvx

    If this continues, I wonder if Zimmerman won’t have a strong case for wrongful prosecution.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jack-Zimms/100003653414389 Jack Zimms

    Also there are witnesses (that mean more than one) that have said
    it was Zimmerman screaming for help and Martin who was on top pounding
    Zimmerman. So much for the so called audio expert that one of the MSM  produced
    claiming it wasn’t Zimmerman screaming. Also a Photo at the crime scene shows Zimmerman’s
    clearly with a swollen nose and blood on his face. Many of the  MSM’s phony evidence against Zimmerman have
    been busted time and time again.  

  • Guest

    And the investigator says it’s Zimmerman’s fault.

    Ooops!

    “The encounter between
    George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by
    Zimmerman, if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited the
    arrival of law enforcement, or conversely if he had identified himself
    to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialog in an effort to
    dispel each party’s concern,” the report said. “There is no indication
    that Trayvon Martin was involved in any criminal activity at the time
    of the encounter.”

    This establishes Zimmerman as the aggressor. He wasn’t “standing his ground” if he was pursuing a child who’d done no wrong.

    • herddog505

      It would be a damned strange thing if they were prosecuting Zimmerman and DIDN’T think it was his fault, don’t you think?

    • EricSteel

      The problem with that line of reasoning is that it doesn’t mean squat. That is no excuse for Trayvon Martin to beat George Zimmerman MMA style.

      • Guest

        He feared for his life.

        and he had good reason.

        • EricSteel

          Zimmerman lived in the neighborhood, Trayvon did not. Zimmerman had every legal right to be there, and so did Trayvon (for that matter).

          But there was nothing illegal about Zimmerman getting out of his car, there was nothing illegal about Zimmerman following Trayvon, there was nothing illegal about Zimmerman asking Trayvon what he was doing? What is illegal was Trayvon Martin assaulting and battering George Zimmerman. There is no evidence that George Zimmerman did anything to threaten Trayvon Martin, if you have actual evidence then show it. Otherwise, you are speculating.

          Even if he feared for his life, Trayvon Martin had a duty to retreat after knocking Zimmerman down. He did not need to keep pounding on him MMA style.

          With Trayvon Martin sitting on his chest, and his head getting pounded into the cement, Zimmerman was unable to retreat and could reasonably believe that he was in danger of serious bodily injury or death. That is the threshold for self defense.

          Was Zimmerman unwise to follow Trayvon Martin? Yes. Was that illegal? No. Was Trayvon Martin unwise to punch Zimmerman in the face? Yes. Was that illegal? Yes.

          • Guest

            Nobody is saying Zimmerman broke the law by profiling then harassing Martin.

            But Martin wasn’t breaking the law either, and once Zimmerman left hnis car and began following Martin Zimmerman loses his “stand your ground” defense because Zimmerman was now the aggressor.

            Zimmerman was told to stay in the car by the police. He’s the aggressor.

          • PBunyan

            “Zimmerman was told to stay in the car by the police.”

            That is a lie.

          • EricSteel

            Zimmerman was not told to stay in his car by the Police. That is factually incorrect. He was asked by the 911 dispatcher if he was following Trayvon. When Zimmerman said he was, the dispatcher told he didn’t need to do that. Zimmerman said ok, and made arrangements to meet the police. Sometime after that, the shooting occurred. Following Trayvon is not illegal nor does Zimmerman have a legal requirement to follow the instruction of the operator.

            Either way, it is irrelevent to the Stand Your Ground Law. The Stand Your Ground law merely takes away Zimmerman’s requirement to retreat before using deadly force.

            Once Trayvon Martin had Zimmerman on the ground and was beating his head against the cement, Trayvon Martin actually became the aggressor. Zimmerman was unable to retreat and faced death or serious bodily injury. Trayvon Martin gave Zimmerman no other option except self defense.

            The Stand Your Ground Law doesn’t even apply in this case, because Zimmerman was trapped and was getting his head beaten into a cement sidewalk. He had a reasonable fear for his life or serious bodily injury at that point.

            Really at that moment, I don’t know if it matters who started it. Because Trayvon Martin was not justified in using deadly force just because some guy was following him.

          • herddog505

            Has anybody else noticed the contradiction:

            Lefties claim that Zimmerman “stalked” Martin, that he “harrassed” him, that he was the “aggressor” because he (allegedly; we have no evidence of what happened in those last moments) “confronted” him.

            But the police report says that it’s Zimmerman’s fault in part because he did not “[identify] himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and [initiate] dialog in an effort to dispel each party’s concern”.

            So, which is it?  Zimmerman’s a villain because he allegely approached Martin, or because he didn’t?

            O’ course, all of this is predicated on the completely unproved assertion that Zimmerman continued to pursue Martin after ringing off with the 911 operator.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IZ5BM5GNLA54OADSWGSXAMA7SY Jay


            But the police report says that it’s Zimmerman’s fault in part because he did not “[identify] himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and [initiate] dialog in an effort to dispel each party’s concern”.

            Use the entire report.

            “The encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman, if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and waited the arrival of law enforcement, or conversely if he had identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialogue in an effort to dispel each party’s concern.

            Emphasis mine.

            Also, he seems to have a lot of problems with looking racist. Might want to check out that angle.

          • herddog505

            I deeply hope that this doesn’t become a legal standard in our country as it could be a real problem with prosecuting criminals:

            “Your honor, we move that the charges against my client be dropped as the alleged victim is responsible for what happened because, had he stayed in bed, nothing at all would have happened.”

            As for the alleged racism, that might (unfortunately) sway a jury, but I am not aware that being a racist is illegal in our country.  I realize that libs like to prosecute based on what they think OUGHT to be crimes, but the legal system – in principle – doesn’t work that way.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IZ5BM5GNLA54OADSWGSXAMA7SY Jay

    There is a contempoaneous picture of Zimmerman’s face. It was released yesterday. It was a cellphone pic taken by a police officer at the scene and shows Z with a swollen nose and blood on his face.
    Jay several weeks ago you were denying that Z was injured at all. Now we know for absolute fact that he was injured. And now you are moving the goal posts by saying, they aren’t serious enough.
    What trajectory evidence are you talking about? Trayvon was shot at point blank range in the chest.
    There is ZERO evidence that Zimmerman was on top of Martin. There is eyewitness testimony that Trayvon Martin had Zimmerman pinned down and was pounding Z’s head into the pavement moments before the shooting.
    Now you are talking about Prescription drugs. Dude, It just makes you look desperate and reaching.

    I didn’t deny Z was injured.  What is with that?  I said the guy didn’t have an obvious broken nose.  And judging from the scratches he has, I doubt highly that he was all injured as to take a live.  Stop trying to impose your own thinking on what I’ve stated.  It’s quite annoying when the only thing you seem to recall is everything you think I’ve said.  If you don’t know what I’ve said, drop it.  Other than that, you’re appearing more and more foolish.
    What others on this site says is that somehow Martin is on top of Zimmerman pounding his head in when he was shot.  So how does it make sense that he had no blood on the shirt?  How does it make sense that there is nothing to indicate that Zimmerman needed to shoot Martin?
    So again, how can he be pounding Z’s head into the pavement if there is no blood?
    *sigh* 
    For the love of… Seriously?  All I said was that there’s new evidence and you use an ad hom attack.  Bravo on the rhetoric game.  Two points.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_3HXDVYRKBWGTA5A4M5IOPN4DBU Emerson

    I think it’d be great if people used progressively younger pictures of Trayvon so eventually he’ll be the newborn who was murdered by the racist white Hispanic guy.

    PS: I love the Fight Club video featuring Trayvon that came to light recently. He’s so innocent!