Sandra Fluke: Religious Employers Will Deny Contraception Coverage, Leukemia Treatments, Blood Transfusions

MSNBC is still scheduling Sandra Fluke as a guest and on Friday’s NewsNation with Tamron Hall she essentially claimed that leukemia treatments and contraception coverage is pretty much the same thing in the eyes of those “religious employers” that want to use religious objections to deny “healthcare” coverage to employees.

“I think what it is important to note is that some of the folks who are continuing to object to this policy are actually worried about employers who are private companies, not religiously affiliated employers in any way, but the boss has a particular religious concern and they want to be able deny their employees particular types of healthcare.

Now if you take a sep back and think about that, that’s, you know, you work at a restaurant, you work at a store and your boss is able to deny you leukemia coverage, or contraception coverage, or blood transfusions or any number of medical concerns that someone might have a religious objection to.

So the folks that are still objecting have some very extreme ideas about religious freedom and employee healthcare in this country.

There are many fallacies in this.

First of all contraception is not “healthcare.”

Secondly, where is the rash of employers who are saying they want to use religion to withhold “leukemia treatments,” or “blood transfusions” from their employees?

Thirdly, contraception is n no way at all comparable to leukemia treatments or life-saving blood transfusions. You ain’t gonna die specifically because you can’t cover your willy with a latex-based product!

Fourth, leukemia treatments don’t cost $13 per dozen. Such treatments are a tad more expensive than a box of Trojans.

Fifth, who exactly is the extreme one when Fluke is the one saying leukemia treatments and contraception are more or less the same thing?

And Lastly, no one on earth is saying that women should be prevented from getting their sex aides. All anyone is objecting to is forcing employers to pay for it through government enforced, employer-provided health insurance. And no one at all is saying they want to prevent employees from getting life-saving blood transfusions or leukemia treatments. No one… except the extreme Sandra Fluke.

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  • GarandFan

    “…she essentially claimed that leukemia treatments and contraception
    coverage is pretty much the same thing in the eyes of those “religious
    employers”

    RELIGION according to health and contraception expert, Sandra Fluke.

    • HeilMary1

      Catholic hospitals do deny chemo and other treatments all the time to women who are merely still fertile, but not pregnant, in order to force future pregnancies on them. That goes double for pregnant women with cancer. Catholic hospitals are the real death panels!

      • retired.military

        Do you have any proof of teh bullshit which you spout?

      • GarandFan

        My mother was treated at a “Catholic” hospital, WITH CHEMO. Where’d you get your info, Huffington Post?

        • HeilMary1

          There have been many examples of pregnant women with cancer denied chemo at Catholic hospitals, and many died as a result. Here is one small example:

          http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2010/02/20/pregnant-nicaraguan-woman-denied-treatment-metastatic-cancer

          Middle-aged women are also denied needed hysterectomies because they have a few fertile years left.

          • jim_m

            Your link goes to a story from Nicaragua, where it is illegal to perform or cause an abortion. Care to post a link to something from the US? Or do you only want to be dishonest?

          • HeilMary1

            Mother killer, no amount of evidence will convince you since you a heretic fetal idolator. And you just admitted you are OK with forcing pregnant cancer victims to die in other countries and can’t wait for maternal deaths to quadruple here since you hate already born women so much.

          • jim_m

            1) I’m not Catholic. But neither am I a hateful bigot that says they should have to violate their religious beliefs to suit my own wishes.

            2) I admitted no such thing. I am really not concerned about what happens in other countries because the article and the implications are solely about what is happening here is the USA.

          • HeilMary1

            You’ve been throwing a lot of insults at me and don’t care that the RCC is trying to force third world maternal deaths here as well. The U.S. already ranks 39th in maternal mortality because of high maternal deaths at Catholic hospitals. Why are you defending misogyny-based medical malpractice?

          • jim_m

            So you are telling me that the RCC controls the laws of Nicaragua a country that has been run by the atheist communist party for quite some time now?

            And the US does not rank that low in infant mortality for that reason. Infant mortality is a highly political stat. In the US any child that dies after birth is considered infant mortality. In some nations it is considered a still birth if the child dies within a month or more of birth from a condition present at birth. Infant mortality is one of the most worthless stats possible for measuring quality of health care between nations.

          • HeilMary1

            Your info is outdated — Ortega more recently got reelected with Catholic Church support because he completely outlawed abortion, even for ectopic pregnancies which have murdered several hundred women per year.

            My statistics are for MATERNAL deaths, not infant deaths, but women don’t count as human to you.

          • jim_m

            That’s funny, since his predecessor signed the law you are complaining about

            .Seems that you are the ignorant one here. Seems that most of your information comes from your ideology and not from actual facts.

          • HeilMary1

            “As part of his campaign to appease sections of the elite, Ortega has courted the Catholic Church by outlawing all abortions, even when a woman’s life is in danger.”

            http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2011/11/2011117173951437487.html

            You can’t stand it that I’m right and backing up my claims.

          • jim_m

            So you claimed that he ran on that policy but you ignore the fact that the law was passed before he was elected and signed by his predecessor.

            You then link to an al Jazeera article? Seriously?

            The fact is that he didn’t sign the law.

          • HeilMary1

            http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/20/world/americas/20nicaragua.html?_r=0

            “Daniel Ortega, the former Marxist who was president from 1985 to 1990 and the leader of the Sandinista Party, abandoned his ideological roots and supported passage of the law in an effort to gain support from the Roman Catholic Church in his campaign to regain the presidency. He narrowly won the election, on Nov. 5, with about 38 percent of the vote.

            The support of the Sandinistas in the National Assembly was critical, because they had blocked similar measures in the past. The bill passed on Oct. 26.

            Some opponents to the law had hoped Mr. Bolaños, a
            conservative, would not sign the bill because it did not include the stiffer sentences he had wanted for women who had had illegal abortions, or for those who had performed abortions. The six-year prison term remains unchanged under the law. The president had asked for a 30-year prison term.”

            Ortega got re-elected with crucial RCC support because he supported the anti-abortion bill that Bolanos signed. Does that clear things up?

          • jim_m

            Your original claim was that he was elected “because he completely outlawed abortion,”

            That claim was and is a lie. You still won’t admit it.

          • HeilMary1

            Bully, I was writing off my memory of radio interview discussions and articles on Ortega’s change on abortion to get himself elected. I don’t live in that country. Not knowing the exact sequence of events there doesn’t make me a liar, LIAR.

          • retired.military

            You are actually quoting Aljazeera. LOL. It dont get no better than this. They wouldnt tell a lie no sirree. next you will be saying that the NY Times has layers of fact checkers.

          • HeilMary1

            And you get all your “facts” from Faux News and the Nazi- and pedophile-hiding Vatican!

          • retired.military

            Actually I have stated numerous times I dont watch Fox news. HOwever, I would bet they are a damn site more accurate than AlJeeraza.

          • retired.military

            You claim the church is tyring to force 3rd world maternal deaths yet you are all all for the 1 million unborn children getting killed in a year. Next you cite maternal mortality rates but cite nothing which is used to base that statistic on.
            In short, you are a liar, psychotic, and have serious other issues which you are not only proving that you have but complaining because others dont share your hate. Just because you hate the world doesnt mean that others have to.

          • HeilMary1

            You are psychotic for supporting a child-raping, mother-killing, Nazi-electing, death camp-running cult. I’m merely one of MILLIONS of RCC abuse survivors and you are defending abuse!

          • retired.military

            You are calling me psychotic yet several posters here have called for you to get mental help. Generally if everyone in the room says you have a problem than ummm YOU HAVE A PROBLEM and not them.

          • retired.military

            Damn guy. That is some seriously ill stuff you are making up. Do yourself a favor and go see a shrink.

          • HeilMary1

            Why don’t you educate yourself on Munchausen by Proxy abuse, obstetric fistulas, the Vatican Nazi ratlines of WWII and grow up?

          • jim_m

            Sorry, but you do seem to be seriously mentally ill.

          • HeilMary1

            Speak for yourself. I’ve given you plenty of info to digest. I grew up Catholic and used to be anti-abortion before I knew Church history and the grisly facts about childbirth that ruined my mom and her marriage.

          • retired.military

            No one here has expressed the slightest interest in your problems, your mother’s problems or your opinions of the Catholic church. Why not do us all a favor and go away.

          • retired.military

            Grow up? Why dont you familiarize yourself with mental help for your issues. YOU NEED IT. and more than one person has stated it.

          • retired.military

            Damn guy. That is some seriously ill stuff you are making up. Do yourself a favor and go see a shrink.

          • GarandFan

            From their own website:

            RH Reality Check’s rebuttal arsenal against the — reckless rhetoric — used by opponents of reproductive rights

            Well we all know what the ‘code words’ “reproductive rights” means, don’t we? No axe for them to grind, right? As for the woman mentioned – how convenient that she has an alias.

          • HeilMary1

            Well we know your are a heretic fetal idolator who despises already born women as throwaway incubators for spoiled pedophile priests.

          • jim_m

            You are a foul person and an ignorant liar.,

            You have posted links that are irrelevant to your claims of hospitals not treating women with cancer. You have posted links to stories coming from foreign countries where abortion is illegal. You have posted comments about data 25 years old that is not relevant to a discussion about today.

            You are dishonest and prejudiced.

          • HeilMary1

            Mother killer, you won’t accept the truth of current high maternal deaths right here in the U.S. — we’re 39th in maternal safety according to some studies. You are the lying bigot here and want the U.S. to be as backward as Afghanistan.

            http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1383244/America-WORST-maternal-death-rate-industrialised-nation.html#axzz2JzIQc7mh

          • jim_m

            The article you link does not even tell us sho did the “study” until almost the very end. I cannot locate any date on their website and can only find more general statements.

            What is needed is comparative data http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_mat_mor-health-maternal-mortality

            At the link is a list where you will find that the US maternal mortality rate is 8 in 100,000.(10 year data ending 1999). There are some nations doing better, but most that are, are only a couple of deaths per 100,000 less. Nowhere can I find anyone claiming that Catholic hospitals refusing to perform abortions are the reason for this.

            One wonders why there is always so much fuss about prenatal care when you have just told us that the real reason for maternal death is Catholicism. It seems that prenatal care must be totally irrelevant according to you.

          • HeilMary1
          • jim_m

            The article ascribes the high rate of maternal deaths to the vary high c section rates in the US and not to lack of abortions. SO your point is totally false. Your claim was that we are so low because of the RCC forbidding abortions. Your own article link proves you are a bigot and a liar.

            Experts have attributed the rising number of American women dying in childbirth to the C-section rates, which are said to be higher than what the World Health Organization says is safe.

          • HeilMary1

            Liar, ALL methods of childbirth are deadly. C-sections avoid lacerations to women’s bladders, bowels, etc. and infant suffocation in the birth canal. The RCC opposes women even having access to contraception and sterilization.

          • jim_m

            I quoted the article you linked. Don’t call me a liar for quoting the information you cite.

            The World Health Organization has attributed higher maternal mortality to c section rates. Live with it. You lied when you said it was lack of access to abortion. You don’t believe the facts, you only believe your ideology.

          • HeilMary1

            Liar, I never said lack of access to abortion causes high maternal deaths, although it is a factor for women like Savita in Ireland. A bigger cause of maternal death is the RCC opposition to sterilization and contraception.

          • jim_m

            I never said lack of access to abortion causes high maternal deaths

            The U.S. already ranks 39th in maternal mortality because of high maternal deaths at Catholic hospitals.

            This is the anchor to your argument that the Catholic Church is wrong for banning abortions. You have linked to articles claiming that the church endangers women because they will not perform abortions. You have indeed made the argument that the Catholic church is to blame for high maternal mortality because they do not provide abortions.

          • http://www.rustedsky.net JLawson

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_mortality#Measuring_IMR

            And seriously, you’re posting opinion pieces from Zambia to support your contentions?

          • http://www.rustedsky.net JLawson

            And weird, to boot.

          • GarandFan

            So? Now you go to name-calling when your “facts” fall apart? Have a nice day, and don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

          • HeilMary1

            My facts stand, but you are too bigoted to accept them and you are certainly dripping with hatred for women’s equal right to life and health.

          • GarandFan

            Yeah, and I’ll bet that Chris Dodd and Splash Kennedy never bothered you with their ‘waitress sandwich’. Or Kennedy killing a woman while drunk on his ass. Or Menendez consorting with child prostitutes. Because that’s DIFFERENT! Right? Give it a break toots, you’re only digging that hole deeper. Next thing you’ll be telling me is how much you value diversity of thought and different points of view. Blow it babe!

          • HeilMary1

            My stinky childbirth fistulaed mom burned all my skin off when I was first grade as her permanent abstinence excuse since she feared death from her next pregnancy. i wish she had aborted me instead. I’m no fan of playboy jerks like Dodd or pedophiles like Neil Bush or rapists like Newt Gingrich, but you’re OK with any anti-choice GOP rapist because you have double standards! Rape only counts with you as a crime if you don’t like the party affiliation.

          • GarandFan

            When was the last time you saw a mental health professional? You appear to “know” a lot about me, having never met me. But please do continue. You evidently don’t appreciate your hypocrisy being pointed out to you.

          • HeilMary1

            You’re the hypocrite who excuses sex crimes by priests and Republicans and yet you call me mentally ill?

          • GarandFan

            I “excused sex crimes by priests and Republicans”? Care to point out something I wrote to support that? Oh, that’s right, you just make shit up as you go. Understood.

          • retired.military

            You have proven your mental illness. Garandfan not so much. Go see someone about your mommy issues.

          • HeilMary1

            Go see someone about your misogyny issues.

          • http://www.rustedsky.net JLawson

            Just because you see a mental health specialist doesn’t mean you’re mentally ill – any more than you taking your car in for an oil change means you’re a mechanic.

            Lot of folks could benefit from a tuneup – keeps ya running without grinding your gears… or your teeth.

          • HeilMary1

            Just researching and networking with other victims is therapy enough. Seeing the big picture is priceless.

          • http://www.rustedsky.net JLawson

            As long as it’s an accurate picture – yes. You seem to have some rather distorting lenses on.

          • retired.military

            SO you have mommy issues and you want to ensure that everyone has the same hate. Great job there.

          • HeilMary1

            You have it ass backwards — I’m trying to warn everyone so they avoid ending up disfigured like me by my mom and other crazy Catholics.

          • http://www.rustedsky.net JLawson

            Hate to say it, but your facts aren’t exactly standing,..

            Actually, they kinda collapsed on the floor.

          • HeilMary1

            So you are too bigoted to understand complex medical issues. I can’t fix your refusal to comprehend.

          • http://www.rustedsky.net JLawson

            Bigotry doesn’t have anything to do with comprehension. As far as complex medical issues go – lol. You’re not exactly showing yourself to be either a medical professional or a good communicator.

          • retired.military

            Where as you despise all unborn children and just want to make sure it is okay to kill them if someone wants to.

          • HeilMary1

            Fetuses grossly maim and murder mothers. ALL abortions are self-defense. However, most women, being enamored with children, will willingly risk their health and lives on occasion when they are up to it. Childbearing should NEVER be coerced since it is dangerous, bankrupting and a gross turn-off to cheating husbands like my dad. Letting women make their own choices means that most will have one or more kids over time. Forcing unhealthy and mentally ill women like my mom to be brood mares means horrific abuse of unwanted kids like me. Telling the truth doesn’t make me crazy or hateful. Hiding the truth only causes more abuse and hate.

          • jim_m

            Childbearing should NEVER be coerced since it is dangerous, bankrupting and a gross turn-off to cheating husbands like my dad

            Yep. SO dangerous that only a handful of women out of 100,000 die from it. SO bankrupting that the whole nation is in poverty from having children. And so what if your daddy cheated on your mommy? If she is anything like you, who could blame him? Quit confusing your mental illness and your mother’s with everyone else.

          • HeilMary1

            Before Dr. Marion Sims experimented on slave women 150 years ago, childbirth incontinence made large numbers of women social lepers, if not dead. Childbirth still kills 20% of women in some third world nations, and leaves 20 times that with gross injuries like fistulas. You’d never stay married to a woman with such injuries. Even with Sims’ innovations, 50% of all American mothers eventually suffer incontinence, which is why you see adult diaper commercials for women and high divorce rates after childbirth. Only bullies like you who defend abuse and medical myths are ill.

          • jim_m

            Riiiight.

            I cite you actual statistics on maternal death rates and you claim that your ideology trumps facts.

            Here’s a fact for you: Childbirth is natural and normal. Yes, there are complications. However, your claim that childbirth is dangerous and an abuse inflicted upon women by evil men is irrational and a sign of metal illness or instability. Your beliefs do not align with reality.

          • retired.military

            Do you even read what you write?

            “Fetuses grossly maim and murder mothers. ALL abortions are self-defense.”

            These are the ravings of a lunatic.

          • 914

            Nutjob

          • Jwb10001

            Guys, please stop with Mary, you’re not helping her. She is clearly unbalanced pushing her will not help and she really needs help. We should not be antagonizing her. We’ve expressed our opinion that she should seek help, and she seriously should, we should leave it at that and hope that she can sort out her problems and comes to a point that she can live with herself and her past.

          • jim_m

            Well said. With the one caveat that correcting any misinformation is still a reasonable response.

          • herddog505

            Jwb10001Guys, please stop with Mary, you’re not helping her. She is clearly unbalanced pushing her will not help and she really needs help. We should not be antagonizing her.

            Thank you for writing this; I completely agree.

          • SCSIwuzzy

            Agreed. She is one bad day away from being the next mass-shooter.

      • jim_m

        Links. Data. Prove your bullshit Ms Bigot. I have worked with cancer centers at Catholic hospitals and I can tell you unequivocally that you are wrong.

        In fact Loyola Univ. Medical Center outside of Chicago was once a leader in doing bone marrow transplant for breast ca. and the primary patient population was in women of childbearing age. You should know that BMT is so toxic that it renders the patient sterile afterwards in nearly 100% of the cases.

        Your comments about Catholic hospitals are bigoted and deeply ignorant.

        • HeilMary1
          • jim_m

            You link three articles complaining that Catholic hospitals do not perform abortions and a fourth which I did not even bother to read once I saw it was from a foreign country.

            SO what you really object to is the sincerely held religious belief which the Catholic church has held since Aquinas.

          • HeilMary1

            Aquinas never gave birth or had to fear obstetric fistulas. I believe he also was OK with early term abortions and never mentioned contraception. Did you know that 450 plants, including coffee, tea and holy wine, are natural abortifacients? If contraception and abortion bothered Jesus, he never would would have served abortifacient miracle wine to the Cana bride. Use you brain!

          • jim_m

            Aquinas articulated the core philosophy of the Catholic Church from which it arrives at its opposition to abortion and contraception.

            The point is that most of the items you mention do not cause abortions in typical use. The other point is that you are either ignorant of how the RCC thinks and why they do so or you are so hateful and bigoted that you don’t even care to know.

          • HeilMary1

            http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080121080402.htm
            Just TWO cups of coffee can trigger abortions. If you’ve served coffee to women, perhaps you should arrest yourself!

            I consider Jesus, not Aquinas, to be the final authority on reproductive ethics. Why would you ignore the founder, and rely on self-appointed misinformed, unscientific and misogynist busybodies instead?

          • jim_m

            As I have said, I am not Catholic, but nor do I denigrate their religious beliefs. You seem to have a real problem with them.

          • HeilMary1

            I had my skin burned off by my anti-choice Catholic extremist mother who feared death from another pregnancy. Being a direct victim of Catholic “pro-life” violence makes me very fearful for everyone’s safety. How about some empathy for victims of Catholic abuse?

          • jim_m

            That makes no sense, but it certainly explains your insanity. I suggest getting serious medical help as others have suggested.

          • http://www.rustedsky.net JLawson

            Amen to that.

          • HeilMary1

            You’re the abuse apologists. I am a disfigured survivor of a Catholic Munchausen by Proxy mother who was driven insane by the RCC. Just because you refuse to keep up with RCC scandals doesn’t make me crazy. It means that I’m not keeping my head in the sand like you.

          • jim_m

            Sorry, but your mother’s problem was not caused by the Catholic Church. You have data that suggests that her mental illness is something which is statistically more common among Catholics? I think we would all be interested in seeing that. Otherwise, you are only blaming others for problems that were hers. They may have failed to help her, but then they are not psychiatric professionals.

            I would further warn you that in many cases mental illness runs in families. Get yourself help.

          • HeilMary1

            The ban on effective birth control was her motivation for chemically burning me to avoid another “genetic freak” like me. If she hadn’t been Catholic and was allowed sterilization or the pill, she would have had no need to use my “hereditary skin disease” as her permanent abstinence only excuse.

          • retired.military

            Being a Catholic is a choice. You are just another person who doesnt want to take responsibility for choices and your mother sounds the same. Again stop bringing your hate here. I dont even see any of the normal leftist proabortion posters coming to your defense. You obviously have mental issues. Go get some help.

          • jim_m

            Sorry, but your mother’s problem was not caused by the Catholic Church. You have data that suggests that her mental illness is something which is statistically more common among Catholics? I think we would all be interested in seeing that. Otherwise, you are only blaming others for problems that were hers. They may have failed to help her, but then they are not psychiatric professionals.

            I would further warn you that in many cases mental illness runs in families. Get yourself help.

          • retired.military

            You were a victim of what sounds like a seriously ill mother and you have in turn become seriously ill due to the hate that you have. Dont push your hate off on us and dont pretend that it is in the realm of being normal. SEEK SOME HELP.

          • HeilMary1

            Telling the truth here to people who don’t know what is really going on isn’t hatred, and you are misguided if you can’t see the difference.

          • http://www.rustedsky.net JLawson

            From the wholehearted acceptance of rather idiotic talking points, it doesn’t really look like intelligent discussion is HeilMarty’s strong suite.

          • HeilMary1

            Well you clearly aren’t intelligent or informed.

          • http://www.rustedsky.net JLawson

            And you can’t use punctuation. Therefore you’re completely ignorant – see how that goes?

            That I disagree with you doesn’t make me unintelligent or you informed. It means you’ve failed to prove your case, no matter how vehemently you believe you are the one in the right.

          • HeilMary1

            Well you clearly aren’t intelligent or informed.

          • SCSIwuzzy

            and they are mostly blogs from advocacy groups, not news or academic groups.

  • Paul Hooson

    It really depends on the religion of the employer. A Christian Scientist may object to paying for any medical treatment outside of prayer. Catholics could object to abortion or birth control. Jehovah’s Witnesses could object to any blood transfusions. An Adventist hospital in Portland doesn’t serve meat to patients, unless it is specifically ordered by doctor’s request

    I attended a Jehovah’s Witness Kingdom Hall for a while, but the members tended to be very tolerant of others views on blood transfusions, while opposing them for their own medical issues. I know of one church member’s life that could have been saved after a farm accident, if he would have accepted a transfusion. Generally, a Jehovah’s Witness gives blood ahead of time for a scheduled surgery.

    I know of a Jehovah’s Witness managed Walgreen’s store, which is open 365 days a year, because the manager doesn’t believe in holidays, much to the anger of a few of the employees. But, I like this store, and I approve of the hours myself.

    Part of Fluke’s claims are likely accurate here, whereas other claims are not.

  • Paul Hooson

    It really depends on the religion of the employer. A Christian Scientist may object to paying for any medical treatment outside of prayer. Catholics could object to abortion or birth control. Jehovah’s Witnesses could object to any blood transfusions. An Adventist hospital in Portland doesn’t serve meat to patients, unless it is specifically ordered by doctor’s request

    I attended a Jehovah’s Witness Kingdom Hall for a while, but the members tended to be very tolerant of others views on blood transfusions, while opposing them for their own medical issues. I know of one church member’s life that could have been saved after a farm accident, if he would have accepted a transfusion. Generally, a Jehovah’s Witness gives blood ahead of time for a scheduled surgery.

    I know of a Jehovah’s Witness managed Walgreen’s store, which is open 365 days a year, because the manager doesn’t believe in holidays, much to the anger of a few of the employees. But, I like this store, and I approve of the hours myself.

    Part of Fluke’s claims are likely accurate here, whereas other claims are not.

    • SCSIwuzzy

      Her claims may be accurate in theory, but where is the evidence of practice/reality. a JW could object to paying for transfusion. But where is the evidence that any JW employers are?

      • Paul Hooson

        I don’t personally know of any cases to cite. But, the manager of this particular Walgreen’s does ask his employees to work on Christmas or holidays because he personally does not believe in holidays himself, seeing this as just another business day. But, this store does always have large holiday shopping departments, which seems ironic. I think he may skirt most of these health care issues by hiring most workers partime as well. But, I knew of another business, a used car lot that was run by members of the same JW congregation that I attended, after the death of a nonJW brother, through an inheritance will. But, these church members were quickly disappointed at how unethical this business was, and soon closed down this business rather continue the same business practices. The previous owner used to have a secret list of all the problems his cars had, sometimes sold cars without titles, and used an unethical sales practice that virtually kidnapped customers until they agreed to pay a price much higher than an offer they made by making them wait in sales rooms for hours at a time. These church members quickly ended all of these unethical practices. In practice JW are very ethical business people, but that’s not to say that they would not also enforce some of their religious rules in the workplace, such as what health care provisions they support to pay for.

        During WWII Germany, many JW were put in the concentration camps for refusal to support Hitler and fight for his military and hurt others. Those type of strong-willed people could certainly make a stand on health care for example.

        • SCSIwuzzy

          Walgreen’s is a chain, not a franchise. The one manager being a prick is not relevant to what they stock or any other corporate policies.
          Again, for JWs you bring up coulds, but no ares. This is weak sauce, even for you Paul.

          • Paul Hooson

            The real problem here SCSI, is that very few JWs put much weight on wanting to make more than a mere living, as they put church work above everything. Few want to own businesses compared to folks I know from other groups. I have friends who are Jewish, Catholic and Black, who are far more moltivated to own a business than most JWs know. So, I know of no personal examples to cite. However, most JWs are strong in their views, so would they likely enforce part of their religious beliefs in their workplaces if they are in charge. Probably is my best guess.

            When some of my friends from the church took over the car lot, I urged then to reform it. Instead, they really sought to close the business, because it got in the way of their church work. That’s how most of the members view things.

  • The_Queen_of_France

    Employers, religious or not, are not going to be the ones to deny “any number of medical concerns,” by which I assume she means treatment for any number of medical concerns. Those denying such treatment will be government appointees.

    I have a chronic condition requiring an expensive chemotherapy treatment six times a year. I’m still several years from retirement; my worry is that once I’m no longer able to work, i.e., not a productive member of the collective, those treatments will be denied by the all-powerful, all-knowing Independent Payment Advisory Board. But hey, as long as Fluke can sleep around at no cost to herself, I guess I’ll have to be ok with that.

    • MartinLandauCalrissian

      Sadly, it is likely that Obama has you scheduled for a death panel.

    • HeilMary1

      Monogamous Fluke pays for her own contraception while pedophile priests make everyone pay for their Viagra sprees.

      • retired.military

        and the liberal teachers unions pay millions to pedophile teachers who dont do any work awaiting their hearings.

        • HeilMary1

          Catholic schools have the most pedophiles and you know it.

          • jim_m

            Great!! Show us the statistic comparing them to public schools.

          • HeilMary1

            I guess you never heard of all the cover-ups in all major cities around the globe. Dr. Richard Sipe’s decades of research show that 80-90% of all priests break their chastity vows and at least 10% are pedophiles.

          • jim_m

            I’m waiting for a link and real data not bigoted spew from you.

            The research you refer to is over 25 years old and is out of date. There is nothing to suggest that it is still accurate.

          • HeilMary1
          • jim_m

            Richard SIpe published his major study in 1990. That’s 23 years ago. It is not relevant to any discussion today.

            Your other link goes to an article saying about how many priests have been accused. Correct me if I am wrong,but I believe that one is innocent until proven guilty and so basing an “extrapolation” on accusations is bullshit. Yes there is a problem with sexual abuse in the church. Yes they have done a lousy job of getting rid of it and owning up to it. However, your so called data is still speculation and is built on accusation and not proof.

          • HeilMary1

            My info is from TODAY! And Sipe has continually updated his studies.

            http://www.bishop-accountability.org/AbuseTracker/

            Child welfare experts around the world agree the RCC is the biggest offender. Australia is now convening a criminal truth commission on RCC abuse.

          • retired.military

            You are right I have never heard of your conspiracy theory cover ups in major cities around the globe.

          • retired.military

            Really?
            Show me the links. I have seen nothing but public school pedophiles in the past 10 or so years.

            Stop pushing your hate of the Church, women, unborn children and sanity on everyone. Seriously SEEK SOME HELP.

          • HeilMary1

            I’ve posted plenty of links. If you can’t read, that’s your problem. The Church has done very criminal things to MILLIONS of people. Just ask the Magdalene Laundry victims or Native American kids beaten and raped in Catholic residential boarding schools.

          • retired.military

            Okay I will ask them. Give me some names and phone numbers.

      • jim_m

        So you have either violated the HIPAA law and obtained someone’s private health information or you are making up bigoted bullshit. Congrats.

        • HeilMary1

          My info is from newspapers, bigot.

          • jim_m

            Then you should have no problem linking to their websites. Most papers have websites these days.

          • HeilMary1
          • jim_m

            You said priests were getting Viagra prescriptions. Please post that information or admit that you were just being a bigot with your earlier accusation.

            The NPR story just says Catholic organization’s health plans. There are non-priests who work for Catholic organizations.

          • HeilMary1
          • jim_m

            Very well. One Priest. You haven’t demonstrated that he used his insurance to pay for it, however. Nor have you demonstrated hat it is routine for priests to use viagra.

          • HeilMary1

            This is a new scandal gathering steam. You will be hearing more and more about priests abusing Viagra. The hearings on Obama’s mandate brought out that Catholic institutions weren’t monitoring male employee misuse of Viagra, while harassing female employees who needed hormone pills for various disorders like acne. Georgetown Hospital even did a study on bc pills as an acne treatment. I know because I almost joined that study.

          • jim_m

            Be sure to come back in 5 years to say that you warned us. Until then I will wait for actual evidence instead of unsupported innuendo from an anti-catholic bigot.

          • HeilMary1

            Bigoted Catholics brutalized me and I am just warning everyone about the coming scandals. If you all want to stay in the burning house, be idiots.

          • jim_m

            You have a personal ax to grind. Doesn’t mean you aren’t a bigot.

          • HeilMary1

            Speak for yourself since you are defending abusers and bigots and I’m defending women and children. What have you got against women and children?

          • retired.military

            You are the one who have a problem with children. Especially unborn ones.

          • retired.military

            Do us a favor. Let us burn and just go away.

          • retired.military

            Hey did you know that Al Gore said that the north pole would be free of ice this year?

          • 914

            While Rome burns..

            Who gives a shit about priests and their sex hang ups? Pay for your own lifestyle or change it. Either way, you and Obama stay the F out of ours…

            ~HeilMary full of hate, the ward is calling, don’t be late!

          • HeilMary1

            I DO pay for my own disfigurement bills inflicted on me by your cult! I’ve paid over $100,000 to surgeons to fix the damage. And YOU pay for pedophile priests’ Viagra sprees in Thailand, the starving overpopulated Mexicans who cross our borders without papers, our jobs outsourced by the RCC to overpopulated slaves in the Philippines, and all Americans who can’t afford corporate health insurance.
            ~HeilMary, full of grace and sadness for bigots who keep defending abusive cults!

          • retired.military

            I thought you r mother disfigured you. Now you claim the church did it. Why not post a link to some pictures so we can see your disfigurement that you have been yapping about.

    • HeilMary1

      Monogamous Fluke pays for her own contraception while pedophile priests make everyone pay for their Viagra sprees.

  • herddog505

    Whatever did we do before the all-wize, all-benevolent Obama???

  • HeilMary1

    Since expensive hormonal contraception ($1,200 per year) treats a variety of diseases, including poly cystic ovarian disease and disfiguring acne, and since all contraception prevents deadly, stinky obstetric bladder and bowel fistula incontinence, multiple organ failures, strokes, cancers, limb amputations, sepsis, etc., ALL contraception is preventative health care.

    • retired.military

      Really.

      Well You and Obama are sexist. Obama has said nothing about rubbers which are a form a contraception and per your definion a preventative health care technique.
      Free rubbers for everyone
      Free rubbers for everyone.
      THe idiot above me wants to pay for it.

      • HeilMary1

        Contraception is a lot cheaper than million dollar obstetric deaths, disabilities and resulting divorces by repulsed husbands like Newt Gingrich.

    • jim_m

      Funny that you list stroke in there since it is actually listed as an adverse effect on most contraceptive pills. They have also been implicated in some cancers.

      Plus there are other treatments for all the items you list. Contraception is not the only treatment nor is it considered the first line treatment for any of those therefore it is not a treatment of choice for any rational human being.

      [edit]For instance, you list multiple organ system failure, which is most frequently caused by bacterial sepsis. My guess is that anyone with sepsis would prefer to receive antibiotics and not birth control pills. But if you let us know who you are we could try to make sure that should such a fate happen to you we will make sure that the doctor gives you only birth control and no antibiotics.

      • HeilMary1

        Childbirth poses much higher stroke risks than low hormone pills and you know it. Google obstetric fistulas to get a clue why priests shun marriage to stinky brood mares. Hint: early church officials denounced all women as “piles of dung”.

        • jim_m

          Actually. that is not true. Why do you see stories about 30 YO women having strokes after taking birth control yet you never hear about anyone having a stroke from being pregnant?

          Try again. You are ignorant and irrational.

          • HeilMary1

            Idiot, I took bc pills for years for acne and I never had a stroke, but you hate the truth!

            http://www.today.com/id/43918460/site/todayshow/ns/today-today_health/t/strokes-spike-pregnant-women-new-moms/#.URB1NfK6-Cg

            http://www.webmd.com/baby/news/20110728/strokes-during-pregnancy-childbirth-on-the-rise

            Since everything you claim is wrong, why don’t you give up on your embarrassing cave man “facts”?

          • jim_m

            The today article states clearly that high blood pressure and heart disease are to blame and not pregnancy.

            Of course you won’t listen to real science

            There are about 4.4 ischemic strokes for every 100,000 women of childbearing age. Birth control pills increase the risk 1.9 times, to 8.5 strokes per 100,000 women,

          • HeilMary1

            Pregnancy and childbirth raise blood pressure. Ever hear of Eclampsia? I know victims.

          • jim_m

            Anecdotal evidence is not statistically significant evidence. I know people who have died of fungal brain infections too, that doesn’t mean that they are all that common or something we all need to be concerned about.

          • retired.military

            Do everyone a favor and dont reproduce. I would have to see what your spawn would be like. No kid deserves that much hate growing up.

          • HeilMary1

            You’ve just made my argument for reproductive choice. The RCC made my mother mentally unfit to have any kids.

          • retired.military

            The Church has nothing to do with your mother’s mental illness. Show me any case in mental illness documentation where the cause listed was the church.

      • HeilMary1

        Abstinence only isn’t rational for couples since most women ovulate 2 and 3 times per month — this is why NFP always fails!

        • jim_m

          Most women of what species? There is a reason why people refer to it as a monthly period. The average human female ovulates once per month. Did I mention that you are ridiculously ignorant? Heck, my 12 YO knows more about biology than you do.

          • HeilMary1
          • 914

            Seek help while you still have time!!

          • HeilMary1

            You need help!

          • retired.military

            Yeah getting away from you. Jeez. I have not seen crap like this since Lee Ward posted on this site. Dont go away mad. Just go away.

          • 914

            HeilMary1 full of hate, go away you reprobate..

          • jim_m

            Moron. Your claim: since most women ovulate 2 and 3 times per month

            THe article:

            The team carried out daily, high resolution trans-vaginal ultrasound examinations on 63 women with normal menstrual cycles who were aged between 18 and 40. Over six weeks, the women’s individual follicles were measured.

            During the study, 50 of the women ovulated only once, but six ovulated twice and seven not at all. The next stage of the research will be to find out why some waves lead to ovulation while others do not.

            The study also refers to “waves” of ovulation where more than one follicle is produced. They are not talking about multiple ovulation events but what are essentially simultaneous maturing of more than one follicle. They even point out the relationship to fraternal twins.

            Only an idiot would think that this means that women are ovulating with rabbit like frequency.

          • HeilMary1

            Read the comments below from REAL women! I’ve come across women who got pregnant from these additional egg releases during their “infertile” cycle. This is also why pregnancy is so high from rape and NFP.

          • jim_m

            Your claims about rape and natural family planning are about as reasonable as Todd Akin’s.

  • retired.military

    Geez this idiot HeiMary1 has posted over 3400 comments on various sites. That is way too much hate.

    • HeilMary1

      I’m an RCC abuse survivor and you should be grateful that we victims are fighting abuse. Your own life will be safer in the end. How ignorant of you to bash victims who challenge abusers! Since you are military, it should bother you that most wars of the past 100 years were pushed by the Vatican. The Vatican ordered German Catholics to vote for anti-abortion Catholic Hitler and we know how disasterous that turned out for 400,000 dead American soldiers. Ditto for pedophile Cardinal Spellman’s war on Vietnam’s Buddhist “heretics”. What people refuse to know about RCC history can kill them and their families,

      • jim_m

        You have not said anything that was the fault of the RCC. You have named several incidents that were the fault of your mentally ill mother. I may be silly, but I’m guessing that your mother wasn’t a nun and your daddy wasn’t a priest so quit blaming the church for your family.

        • HeilMary1

          The ban on sterilization and contraception drove my mom to disfigure me as her excuse for permanent abstinence to avoid more deadly pregnancies. That is perfect proof.

          • retired.military

            That is like saying that a fork and spon drove Rosie Odonnel to overeat.
            You got one part of your statement right. HER EXCUSE. I could use any excuse to do anything. By your logic I could go out and kill 100 people and my excuse was reading your posts were the reason I did it. Your posts would be as much to blame for those 100 murders and the church is for what your mother did to you.
            Stop blaming the church and blame your mother. Millions of Catholic mothers have NOT disfigured their children. It was YOUR MOTHER that did it. She blames the church for her own failings and her mental illness. You are doing the same thing. You are like the people who blame guns for people who get murdered. The gun was used by someone to commit murder. THe mother used her mental illness to blame the church for her own faults.
            You are doing the same.
            Your mother could have simply stopped following the tenets of the church. Millions have done that throughout history and have not disfigured children. Your mother was crazy. You are as well. .

  • http://www.rockingjamboree.com/ Russ Rogers

    First of all, contraception IS healthcare! We had that debate last year, when contraception became a mandated minimum standard for coverage by health insurance. It’s ludicrous and obtuse to continue denying what is already established. You can’t begin with a premise that has already been established as false.

    Secondly, there doesn’t have to be a RASH of employees. Jehovah’s Witness do not believe in blood transfusion or transplant. They are a small, but significant minority, with over 12,000 congregations and one million members in the USA. Ife we make a religious exception for contraception, what is to stop people from making religious exceptions to covering vaccinations, blood transfusion organ transplants or pacemakers? Where do we draw the line? And if it’s just with contraception, why is the Catholic Church being given special religious privilege?

    Third, Ms. Fluke was NOT comparing contraception and leukemia treatments. She was just saying that if we allow employers to opt out of standard healthcare for religious reasons, where do we draw the line? Why allow employers to opt out of the contraception provisions, but not the vaccination provisions? What would stop an employer who has a religious objection to blood transfusion from denying that coverage?

    Fourth, Trojans have NEVER been a prescription medication! So condoms are not covered by health insurance. Your comparison between condoms and other forms of birth control that REQUIRED a prescription is absolute nonsense. It’s a straw-man and a red-herring. It just muddies the water with a something that is completely off topic. Why should we take the writing seriously when it is willing to put this nonsense at the heart of it’s argument?

    Hormonal Birth Control is a PRESCRIPTION MEDICATION. Not all women can PHYSICALLY take the cheap, generic formulation that costs less than $9 per month. Several brands of the Pill cost $85 per month or more (without insurance coverage). That’s more than $1000 per year. Let’s face it. Sometimes prescription drugs can be surprisingly expensive. It’s because of those “surprises” that we need health insurance to help defray the costs.

    It’s perfectly reasonable for a woman to expect the prescriptions she gets from her doctor will be covered by the health insurance SHE PAYS FOR. That’s not asking for free stuff. That’s just common sense.

    Fifth, Fluke NEVER said that leukemia treatments and contraception are the same. She just said that if you make a religious exception for one form of healthcare, what is to stop OTHER religious exceptions from being claimed? Some people object to vaccinations. Could an employer who doesn’t believe in vaccinations deny coverage for them to their employees on religious grounds?

    Contraception is not as “SEX AID”! Contraception are the tools of serious Family Planning and RESPONSIBLE Sexual Behavior! Access to contraception is KEY to lowering the rates of unplanned pregnancy and ABORTIONS in this country. In a recent study where counseling, sex education and contraception was made FREELY available, the abortion rate within the study group was LOWERED by 61%! That’s an amazing reality. Contraception LOWERS abortion rates, far more than any protester waving signs outside of clinics ever can. The results are REAL and significant. And lowering the abortion rates in the USA should be a REAL, conservative goal!

    No one is denying life saving blood transfusions to anyone. But how can you FORCE an employer who has a religious objection to blood transfusions to PAYING FOR THEM?

    • retired.military

      I have never seen so many strawmen in my life.

    • 914

      ” In a recent study where counseling, sex education and contraception was made FREELY available, the abortion rate within the study group was LOWERED by 61%! That’s an amazing reality”

      In another recent study. The murder rate jumped to 100% for aborted children.

    • jim_m

      What the pill costs is irrelevant. You could use non pharmaceutical birth control. Plus if you are using condoms it is an expense that can be shared by even the most transient of sex partners. Sure it is not as fool proof, but then I’m not responsible for making your life risk free.

      What’s your next whine going to be about? Your obamaphone wasn’t the latest iphone?

    • Vagabond661

      Contraception lowers abortion rates? Abstinence lowers abortion rates far more than any liberal spouting lunacy. Oh you mean if you make the decision to have sex, I am financially responsible because you think people will buy into your guilt trip.

      • http://www.rockingjamboree.com/ Russ Rogers

        Nobody is make YOU financially responsible. Women PAY FOR or EARN their own Private Health Insurance and that covers their contraception needs. How are YOU being made “financially responsible” for their contraception any more or less than you are for their vaccinations? You’re spouting nonsense.

        • Vagabond661

          If you are naive enough to think we are not on the hook for extra coverage then you don’t know how business works. Did you expect the insurance companies just to take it out of their profits to cover these extra expenses? Really? You make the insurance company provide extra benefits and don’t think they will raise everyone’s else’s rates? Honestly?

          If a woman buys birth control just to have sex, I think she can do that on her own. She made the decision to have sex. She can pay for it. Or make her boyfriend pay for it. HE probably would be willing to.

    • Vagabond661

      Contraception lowers abortion rates? Abstinence lowers abortion rates far more than any liberal spouting lunacy. Oh you mean if you make the decision to have sex, I am financially responsible because you think people will buy into your guilt trip.

  • http://wizbangblog.com/ Baron Von Ottomatic

    Jebus that woman is vapid, self-indulgent, and irritating.

  • http://wizbangblog.com/author/rodney-graves/ Rodney G. Graves

    I’ve been watching and laughing my ass off as the crazy rolled on to the utter detriment of the left.

    • Brucehenry

      Terrific decision. Very wise.

      • http://wizbangblog.com/author/rodney-graves/ Rodney G. Graves

        Take it up with Kevin. Perhaps he will have more respect for your opinion than I do, and that’s a very low bar indeed.

        • Brucehenry

          No, no, you’re the moderator. Do as you see fit.

          • http://wizbangblog.com/author/rodney-graves/ Rodney G. Graves

            I have seen no other comments requesting moderator action.

          • retired.military

            I sent Kevin an email last night. People like that dont need to be here stinking up the boards.

          • retired.military

            I sent Kevin an email last night. People like that dont need to be here stinking up the boards.

          • Brucehenry

            Maybe because everyone here expects a “moderator” to do what you do — namely, lurk in the comments, occasionally snarking and using French cliches, and deleting or altering the comments of those you have a grudge against.

            Oh, and never actually, you know…moderating.

          • jim_m

            If she had really been that off topic David Robinson, the Off Topic Police, would have said something.

          • Brucehenry

            Good one

          • Brucehenry

            Good one

          • 914

            She was on topic. Just unhinged and looking for sympathy.

          • jim_m

            If she had really been that off topic David Robinson, the Off Topic Police, would have said something.

          • retired.military

            Rodney
            I am afraid Bruce is right.

            a. When have you ever seen someone on the left call for a proabortion poster to be banned? I have been coming to this board for YEARS and this is a first.

            b. The woman is so blatantly over the top that that alone is reason for banning her.

            I agree with Bruce on this one.

          • jim_m

            My guess is that she is a one time visitor. She seems like the typical one issue loon that comes in and freaks out and then is never heard from again.

          • retired.military

            Rodney
            I am afraid Bruce is right.

            a. When have you ever seen someone on the left call for a proabortion poster to be banned? I have been coming to this board for YEARS and this is a first.

            b. The woman is so blatantly over the top that that alone is reason for banning her.

            I agree with Bruce on this one.

          • Brucehenry

            Maybe because everyone here expects a “moderator” to do what you do — namely, lurk in the comments, occasionally snarking and using French cliches, and deleting or altering the comments of those you have a grudge against.

            Oh, and never actually, you know…moderating.

  • retired.military

    Bruce thank you for that comment. Geez.

  • retired.military

    Heilmary1
    Here is a clue. Giving yourself an upvote on an internet forum is like high fiving yourself after throwing a dart and hitting the dart board (not getting a bullseye just hitting the board).

    • http://wizbangblog.com/author/rodney-graves/ Rodney G. Graves

      More like just hitting the wall the dartboard is on…

  • retired.military

    Heilmary1
    Here is a clue. Giving yourself an upvote on an internet forum is like high fiving yourself after throwing a dart and hitting the dart board (not getting a bullseye just hitting the board).

  • Berzrkr50

    Is this lady still trolling for condoms? Kinda persistent don’t you think?

  • w.jhon

    Ethan. you think Steve`s comment is
    super… last tuesday I got themselves a Mercedes-Benz S-class when I got my
    cheque for $6719 thiss month and just over ten grand last month. it’s actualy
    the easiest-work Ive ever done. I actually started three months/ago and right
    away startad making at least $84 per hour. I work through this link, http://fly26.com

    • http://wizbangblog.com/author/rodney-graves/ Rodney G. Graves

      “Spam”

    • http://wizbangblog.com/author/rodney-graves/ Rodney G. Graves

      “Spam”

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