yo kevin,

actually, the po box 34567 *is* legit. See Powerline - there is a genuine transfer request from Bush addressed to that place (I've seen links to it, if you look around you can find it). And it seems the zip code has changed and is also valid. I saw a post on this somewhere but I've been to so many sites that I don't remember.

I think it's pretty clear these docs are fake, but the (surprising) 34567 is actually legit.

here is the link i was thinking of that shows 34567 is legit.

Original memos from Bush requesting transfer are addressed to that PO Box: 1, 2.

I think you have nailed it....typed in Marty's name and got a pile but this was among it all...

This looks like a possible "true" or reasonably accurate account of Bushes TANG service timeline including details of who he was campaigning for...not sure if its distorted.... hitting it for the night so I can get the kiddo up for school....

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a39ea05224b3e.htm

Sempre fie Kevin .... Ohhhhrahhhh

The PO BOX is suspect for a great many reasons. First, the number is sequential. Assuming that this is supposed to be a post office nearby the actual ELLINGTON AFB in Houston, it would be a an Offbase Post Office with 34,567 boxes. Not bloody likely. An 'On Base' post office would follow a completely different addressing and distribution protocol.

Second, documents of official nature ( like orders to report for example ) would be sent to official locations for distrbution and filing, and you would receive a copy, one that you had to formally acknowledge reciept of. One would not to mail any correspondence to your superiors home, except may christmas cards.

GWB was in the National Guard which some people denigrate as a less-than-able force, but the National Guard is just like the Air Force, not the Civil Air Patrol. An ANG squadron is not run out of someones garage. It would help if people understood that ANG Squadrons regularly out compete regular Air Force squadrons in efficiency ( William Tell exercises for example). Thirdly, the document that is supposedly correct shows GWB refer to himself as "First Lieutenant", not 1LT or 1/Lt. The forger has also left the signature as a child- like "george", not "George W. Bush"/Rank/Squadron/Group/Wing, as would be regulation to sign full name and rank on all official documents.

You might be able to pry information out of Fox. Fox's PDFs seem to have been made in February - which means they may have had them independently also. They didn't run with the story... so they may not care to protect their "source".

From here:
http://beldar.blogs.com/beldarblog/2004/09/rasupthsupergat_1.html

Has anyone else checked out the other documents on Marty Heldt's site.

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet

Does anyone have any .pdf's from a freedom of info request not associated with him.

Being an IOWA man perhaps that is why Harkin was the point man on this. The Doc's went from Mary (under the radar to Tom to John to Terry) to Dan.
DKK

HOLY SHIT!

If this is right .... the first Pulitzer
Prize will be shared between you and 'Buckman'

I sure hope Heldt does not wind up under the
same tree as Foster.

Go man.

Neal Gabler on Fox Newswatch last Saturday said that the Salon article with the Hedt guy is proof positive that Bush is a liar. Of course, Gabler is of the opinion that the mainstream media is conservative not liberal. The man -- like his party -- is a pathological liar. Media Research Center already exposed him as such on another statement he's made in the past.

Fox News reports says that the Kerry campaign and their 527 partners will be coming out with ads with the message Bush misled America about his military record. Do you hear the media outraged about it? Do you hear them question whether they've gone too far? That's what they did when the Swift Boat ads came out.

From a small town outside Boston Mass.?
Who? Who? Don't keep us in suspense like this!!!

I'm not sure if it means anything, but I suspect Brooks Gregory and "Freedom Fighter", the pseudonym of the author of second quote (the one that mentions the 34567 PO Box) are the same person. Looking at Google's record of each's recent Usenet posts, they're made using exactly the same version of Microsoft Outlook via the same access provider (Easynews). Their formatting and writing styles are similar, both seem to be very prolific posters, and while "Freedom Fighter's" posting history only extends back to early August, he doesn't post like someone who's new to Usenet. So, the claims that Heldt is/was selling forged documents may be coming from a single source, credibility unknown.

That said, reading some of the posts Gregory has written over the last two years doesn't leave me with the impression that he has a habit of making wild claims - he's talkative, certainly, but coherent. Still, it'd probably be a good idea to get some corroboration that he is who he claims to be (particularly re: the consulting work for Democratic canadidates) and can back up the statements about proving Heldt has forged documents in the past.

Another observation: the FOIA requests that Heldt has on his site (http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/FOIApg1.gif and http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/FOIApg2.gif) and were presumably written be him appear to use Times New Roman, 12-point font (I retyped a couple of paragraphs on my own using that font and compared them.) That being the MS Word default, it's not damning, by any means, but certainly interesting...

Quite obviously, the Swift Vets' testimony and life stories hit hard to John Kerry and hit hard to the Left Media meshing with the DNC because their attempts to "silence" the testimony by ignoring it proved to their own denigration. As with the CBS forgeries, but that's, to state the obvious, still underway.

My intuitions about this are that the DNC is relying on the public exhaustion factor to set in about all of it such that they'll just turn off any more "news" or interest. Which is where the Left makes it's fatal mistake over and over and over again.

Because, even based upon what I just read in SALON (I really dislike reading that source, but I had to follow the outrageous headline, "Swift">http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/09/10/forgery/index_np.html">"Swift Boat flacks attack CBS"), the DNC (in which I include the unabashed distortions by affection by this SALON writer, if not the publishers, also) is underway with it's "media" assumption that they are victim (the Left is, which points to Kerry, and includes his Media helpers and circle o' funders and fundees) and that the big ole' George Bush and RNC are "attacking" innocent little ole' CBS and Kerry.

I'd bet money on the fact that this is the "Brown Book" thing in play by the DNC: slip and fall.

They're falling. They slipped.

As long as the Left can keep their focus on their victim personna (they're "under attack," the RNC are "flacks," the RNC are "extremists attacking the honor of John Kerry/CBS/Carville/et al.), they can also continue to avoid actually discussing their own behavior...which is what they're doing, quite obviously, with the Fontgate/BathRatherGate.

Challenge here is to continue to apply public scrutiny to the Left itself and deny them their glory from down on the floor where they're waitin' on Edwards to PRESSSS CHARGES for the FLUID on the FLAAAAHHHHEEEERRR.

Great work, Kevin. I'd sure like to know what that small town in PA is called; me and many millions of other readers.

Sorry, underscores were accidental...not intended...

BUT, have you ever, and I do mean, EVER, seen or heard or read about anyone committing such an audacious series of wrongs and displaying such obvious absence of remorse about it, as in this case by the DNC using the media and Kerry using them all?

Actually, yes, I have, as in, many people responsible for very grave crimes, unable to the very end to admit culpability, responsibility, remorse for their own behavior.

I'm thinking this morning that John Kerry is criminal extraordinnaire. I mean that, with all sincerity. Either that, or he's out of the loop and just doing his Felony Dance because he wants the title. Both options are truly terrible.

Why is Carville still on CNN (I'm assuming the network is paying him something for his time there) while now an advisor or otherwise participant in the Kerry campaign?

That's just one question here, for starters, as to media involvement in the Kerry proposition to America, but, also, just reading Media Matters (link you provided here), I'm finding it interesting that the only discussion there about the media is of the negative kind about "RNC points" and those they accuse of being involved in same (one way or another)...labelling anyone who questions these forgeries and related as "gossip" sources and the like.

Shows the huge importance of bloggers, certainly, yes, but I'm wondering this morning about how the information -- the truth about the forgeries, who is responsible, the spider web of Left media and the DNC -- how this is going to get circulated throughout the non-cyber population. And, what, exactly, is the reward for the Left to behave this way? Where are they going with this?

Those last few statements are rhetorical in nature. Just to be clear.

Frank (and others who think PO Box 34567 is suspicious): If you notice the rest of the address, you'll see that the last two digits of the ZIP Code are '34'. This is fairly standard practice in cities. There might not even be 567 boxes in that office - if the TexANG requested that box number, the Postmaster might well have assigned it.

There are plenty of other things that make these documents obvious forgeries. Don't give the DUmmies another charge they can easily refute and declare 'nothing to see here folks, just wingnut theories'.

Okay, I've posted this elsewhere but I'm going to say it here too: WE NEED TO BE VERY CAREFUL HERE GUYS

We are going much further into speculation and may be creating rumors about a guy who is innocent than we did just looking at the memos and noting their flaws.

Seriously: we could be creating a new Richard Jewell. This guy may have nothing to do with it, and excessive public speculation on this could really fuck a guy's life up--and create some potential lawsuits for some bloggers.

Not to mention that some fuckhead might go and threaten this guy!

This may be the biggest danger to Open Source Journalism: public speculation about another person's motives and actions absent proof definitely counts as potentially careless and pernicious gossip, guys.

Don't get mad at me for saying so. Stop and think about it. This man is not a public figure, and he could be completely innocent of any wrongdoing.

What will be most telling is how FOX plays it today...So far they are still running with it...

Does the DNC still go with the "Fortunate Son" thing in the face of the mess they already have...

Will Londoners Back Batmans bid to Commondere Buckingham Palace... Is this a Tony Blair plot...

Well, wouldn't a forger try to get an address from real documents?

The key point Wizbangs source made is that it, aside form drawing suspicion, the BOX WASN'T EVEN ASSIGNED
on the date of a (forged) memo in the packet of docs from this earlier time.

That's called a clue.

FOrgers like to make things look real if they can help it. But they make mistakes on not knowing it wasn't an assigned box on the date of a particular backpace-to-the-future memo.

Well, wouldn't a forger try to get an address from real documents?

The key point Wizbangs source made is that it, aside form drawing suspicion, the BOX WASN'T EVEN ASSIGNED
on the date of a (forged) memo in the packet of docs from this earlier time.

That's called a clue.

Forgers like to make things look real if they can help it. They'll date an address from a real document. But what if the address wasn't in use at the time of a single backpace-to-the-future memo? It means there are time machines, or the memo is fake.

Let me add to Dean's caution: If speculation turns out to be baseless and a private citizen's reputation is tarnished, the speculator could find himself on the wrong end of a libel suit.

--|PW|--

I STILL do not understand how these PRIVATE docs would have been released to anybody under FOIA. They were never part of the official TANG record and even Rather stated they were in a PRIVATE file belonging to Killian.

Could someone file and get a copy of his grocery list he also kept in there? I don't think so and do not think they would be released under FOIA, either. Where have they been stored since Killian's death? At TANG? In the file cabinet? Under 'Bush" so they would be included? Not likely. So how did they become part of the official record in the first place? And WHEN?

So the forgeries were NOT released under FOIA. Where does Heldt claim to have gotten them? The Gregory comment was that they were in with the docs from FOIA. Were they stolen and would they not be the property of his family now? Private docs just do NOT come under FOIA so who inserted them into that mix? How does Heldt account for their inclusion, I wonder?

Who would copy Bush's official file then look in Killiam's private one?? Something does not add up in the claim of obtaining them under FOIA.

Would like to see a page count of what was given Heldt versus what he was selling as see if the number of pages increased by, say, about six.

Dean--

With all due respect, this guy Heldt has made himself a very public figure on the Internet in opposition to George Bush. He was spotted on Kevin Drum's site last night sounding all confident about the authenticity of the memos.

He may not have created them, but he looks like a pretty good subject for speculation. Anyway, he won't become Richard Jewell because no one will pay attention to blogs until our charges are proven by other parties. We report, they decide.

Amelia--

You are correct. (In fact, Heldt tried to get docs like the forgeries passed on to CBS, but failed. He posted the FOIA rejection on his site. I have viewed the letter, which says the last activity in Bush's file was his discharge in 1974.) The FOIA only pertains to certain rudimentary documents unless the veteran has signed Form 180, which Bush did in fact do.

Private documents left outside of a personnel file like a