I have a question. If they remove the feeding tube, can the parents feed her through her mouth? Like with liquids? I understand that she can swallow.

So much for the "he's doing it for the money" option.

I think the Schindlers fought for the right to try and feed her but it was denied. I heard she swallows her saliva but have never heard that she could swallow anything else. Sad situation.

The Florida legislature changed the wording in their new bill to suit the court's requirements as stated in their last opinion. At the very least, it may give DCF time to work which it did not get from Judge Greer (although the FDCA is still set to give a decision on the DCF appeal by tomorrow afternoon). It's not over yet.

And as far as 'he's not doing it for the money'.. would you want to look like a creep by accepting $1 million dollars to cede control over your wife? It still doesn't address the notion that he may have something to hide.

So you can't starve a horse, you can't starve a dog, you can't starve a convicted murder, even one on death row, and you can't starve a terrorist in custody, but you can starve Terri Schiavo??? WTF???

This is the first I've heard about this story, so let me get this straight: the woman has been in a coma for 15 years; her doctor says she's in a vegatitive state; the judge has seen "'clear and convincing' evidence she would not want to be kept alive in her current state."

Her parents "dispute that she is in a vegetative state, saying she laughs, cries, interacts with them and tries to speak."

OK, now somebody's not being completely candid here. She can't be in a vegatative state AND interacting with her parents at the same time. So who's one sandwich short of a picnic - the husband (whose story I find plausible) or her parents (who are apparently OK with her prolonged coma and the husband's suffering, and hope that some future technology will save her, and have tried to buy the husband's acquiescence to continue life support)?

Gosh, that's a toughie. Not.

The judge that made this ruling should have his food withheld also, at least until until Terri dies. Throw in a little duct tape and handcuffs to prevent him from expressing his discomfort and he might just realize what he's done.

FWIW dept., bear in mind that DCF *has* already investigated these same allegations previously & found no substance to them. In addition, the case has repeatedly worked its way through all judicial levels, trial, appellate, *state* supreme court, & *US* supreme court, & those trying to "save Terri" have lost at each step; Occam's Razor tells us that it's dang nigh impossible for ALL of those judges to be moron s or have a wish to kill her.

As far as any supposed "denial of due process" (one of the "save Terri" crowd's favorite gut punches lately), the best rebuttal to that "argument" was delivered today by the 2nd district appeals court's chief judge:

"Not only has Mrs. Schiavo's case been given due process, but few, if any similar cases have ever been afforded this heightened level of process."

At what point do the self-righteous (not to mention the politically brown-nosed) become honest & remember that the law is still the law, even if they have suddenly found it to be inconvenient?

Sometimes, the law is an ass. As are those who defend the indefensible on the basis that it's the law.

For her husband to have endured the abuse he has for as long as he has, I think we can safely assume that he earnestly believes he is doing what his wife wanted. At many, many points, he could have given up and handed guardianship over to her parents. He could have divorced her. He could have cut and run and most people would understand that the strain of it all just got to be too much.

He didn't do any of those things. He consistently fought for what he believed was right for his wife. His actions have shown that over and over again.

As for due process, how many court rulings does it take before due process is served? How many people think that murderers should be taken out back and shot as soon as they are convicted? This odyssey has weaved its way up and down and through the court system for many years. Enough is enough.

Her family has hope. They truly want to believe their daughter responds to them despite medical evidence to the contrary. I wouldn't want it any other way. However, there comes a time when reality has to set in. Just as her husband thinks he is doing the right thing, her parents think the same. People want to paint the husband as acting selfishly, but, in a sense, so are the parents. They don't want to lose their daughter even though she is already lost. Denial is a powerful force.

You don't need to Google for very long to discover the horrific and extended suffering Ms. Schiavo will endure during her execution by denial of water and nourishment. Our society would not deliberately do this to an animal, and yet some of the commenters on this and previous threads seem to defend, or at least not care about this issue.

If you are so certain that her life is now worthless and death is what she wants, why not a lethal injection or a bullet to the head? Perhaps one of you (or perhaps even Judge Greer) would like to volunteer to do the honors.

Shame on every one of us if this murder occurs.

"If they remove the feeding tube, can the parents feed her through her mouth?"

No, the judge won't allow it, and she has never had a swallow test done (he wouldn't permit one) so it is unknown whether or not she can tolerate food or liquids orally.

I am kind of surprised the legislature didn't write a law similar to the one they are writing now, requiring written wishes to have food/water witheld in situations like this. I think this is a good idea as it is. If there was more than just Schiavo's word that she made the comment, and there was something in writing I might feel differently.

Last dehydrating and starving somebody to death has got to be one of the most inhumane ways to kill somebody, even if they had put it in writing.

1. Some people are awfully quick to conclude that anyone who has less than a perfect life must die, even if they are conscious able to respond to their own mother with a smile, as Terri is. People can and do sometimes recover completely or partially from long-term "vegetative states" and comas with appropriate therapy -- even after decades. Reportedly Terri Schiavo has not even had an MRI -- the "gold standard" minimum to determine brain activity and properly diagnose a persistent vegetative state. She hasn't had appropriate tests because the husband, and apparently the judge, want her dead. Read this article for more details:

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/johansen200503160848.asp

She deserves and needs everyone's help and prayers. Read this article too:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/davidlimbaugh/dl20050315.shtml

As far as the record shows, Terri allegedly has not had proper rehabilitation therapy -- not even training to help her learn to swallow food and liquid on her own. Her "guardian" (husband living with another woman) allegedly hasn't even taken proper care of her teeth -- several had to be extracted due to neglect. He just wants her dead.

2. Do you know that Terri's own friends were allegedly concerned for her safety from her husband before she "mysteriously" ended up with brain damaged? Hypothetically, what if a man abuses her wife so badly that she almost dies, then denies her treatment to try to make sure that she never recovers enough to tell what he did?

3. The fact that the husband wants her dead is not good enough. There could be at least four possible bad motivations for killing someone who is mildly brain damaged, none of which have anything to do with her best interests: 1. Spite toward her parents. 2. To cover up evidence of abuse or a criminal assault that caused her brain damage and to make sure she never comes out of her coma and tells the tale 3. To cover up evidence that he hasn't taken proper care of her since she became hospitalized 4. To avoid the cost of her care and keep that money for himself or his lover.

4. No parents should be forced to stand by while their son-in-law starves their daughter to death.

metrognome57,

You said it yourself that you're new to the story. Some of us have been following it for years. Please take the time to actually read up on the story before you start talking out your ass. Allow me to help by pointing out some basic facts:

1) Terri is not in a coma. She is not on life support. The only thing she requires is a feeding tube, and that may not be necessary if she is given the propery therapy.

2) Not all doctors agree that Terri is in a vegatative state. The judge rejected any testimony by a doctor to contradict what one doctor said.

3) Mr. Schaivo's motives have long been in question. He lives in an adulterous situation with another woman, has children by her, and desperately wants his "wife" to die.

4) Terri did not leave any written proof that she would want to die in a situation like this. The only testimony to be found supporting that she would wish to die comes from her "husband".

5) Terri has been denied, by her "husband", any therapy whatsoever. All windows in her room are blocked off. No decorations whatsoever are allowed inside her room. Her parents and friends are denied access. That doesn't sound like a loving, "suffering" husband to me. Another person in the same situation but given proper treatment and therapy has a good chance to recover greatly.

Don't spout off if you don't know the whole story.

People can and do recover from long-term comas and vegetative states even after decades.

Read this (man recovers from coma after 19 years):

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/09/health/main562293.shtml

Terri smiles and laughs and moves. She has not even had a scientifically valid diagnosis of a persistent vegetative state, nor a MRI, one of the minimum tests that would be needed to make a trustworthy diagnosis. Read this:

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/johansen200503160848.asp

Terri reportedly smiles at her mother, laughs, responds to pain, and shows many other signs of life. Just as don't kill newborn babies just because they aren't fully engaged in their world, we don't kill adults over their parents' objections. Terri needs and deserves our support. The claim that her husband has only her best interests in mind, and that she expressed a wish to die, is really unreliable. Read this:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/davidlimbaugh/dl20050315.shtml

Terri has been denied the treatment that might allow her to partially recover: inadequate dental care, resulting in teeth having to be pulled, no proper therapy to teach her to swallow on her own, no cognitive therapy that I'm aware of, no outings with her family. Some of her muscles are contracted as is common in such injuries -- therapy can help with that. In the case of others who have recovered from these kinds of injuries, a lot of stimulation from the family has been very helpful. If you take someone who has suffered a brain injury and then deny them therapy to recover from it, can you then point to their lack of progress as proof that they are a lost cause, and pull the plug?

Have you read about the woman in a coma whose doctors, including her own husband, decided it was time to pull the plug? When she tried to wave her arms to object, they assumed it was just a reflex or a seizure of some kind, and persisted in their belief that she was in a vegetative state and would never recover. Not only did she recover (after a nurse eventually proved that the woman was able to write words with her finger), but she went on to have a child and is still alive today and rooting for Terri.

Try going to Google and typing a few words like "coma doctors husband speak." You'll find story after story of people who recovered from comas after doctors said it was time to pull the plug. Don't take my word for it; do your own research.

I don't know whether Terri's husband is acting out of spite toward is mother in law, or just wants Terri dead so that he doesn't have to think about her anymore or pay anything for her care, or perhaps worries that if she wakes up from her semi-coma she will have damaging things to say about the incident that lead to her brain damage (she was reportedly home alone with her husband, whom some of Terri's family or friends feared was abusive toward her at the time, when she suffered her "unexplained" brain damage).

Whatever HIS reasons, Terri is a partially-conscious, sometimes smiling, relatively young person who, with proper therapy, might even be able to say a few words, learn to maneuver a wheelchair and swallow soft foods. She can be alive 10 and 20 years from now, really living at some level and bringing joy to her parents even if all she can do is to give them a smile.

Just two words: Sara Scantlin

I just can't understand why people have so much trouble accepting that the LORD works in mysterious ways. Who are we to define what a "miracle" is in the His Eyes?

GOD chose to Bless Terri's parents by making the shell of her former body continue to grimace, excrete, wake and sleep as if she were still present, so they could live in comforting denial and become world famous. In Terri's case, He chose to Love her by atrophying massive sections of her brain and replacing them with her spinal fluid, nevermore to be restored.

I suspect some here are similarly Blessed, and may not even know it. Take comfort in believing with all your hearts that God surely wants you this way!

Regarding Steve L.'s comments:

1. Re: "abuse" the husband has taken. First, the husband elected to become her guardian--the reason being suspect since he had the lawyer he was working for meet her parents at the hospital with the guardianship paperwork for their signature on or near the day she was admitted for the collapse. This is suspect because it placed him in complete control of the medical information pertaining to Terri.

When he became her guardian--he assumed the fiduciary duty of acting in Terri's best interests. This, under the law, subjects him to scrutiny by the court system. It offends me that the MSM keeps talking about HIS RIGHTS in the matter. He has no rights--he had duties and he has certain powers which he must exercise only in accordance with the law. The court is bound by the law to scrutinize and remove him should he fail to act in her best interests The Court has failed on many occasions to compel him to act in accordance with the laws put in place to protect wards against guardians failing to act in the interests of the wards.

2. Has Terri had due process? No. She has not had a guardian ad litem (a lawyer to act in her interest in the event that a guardian's interests potentially conflict) since 1999. The judge removed the last one--that ad litem recommended that the tube NOT be removed. The judge has acted as her ad litem. This is a total conflict as he is NOT an advocate for her--but is a finder of fact. He does not have the authority under law to act as her ad litem.

Of course, the MSM has not discussed what the law actually says in this case.

Typical

Bark bark bark bark bark. Bark bark bark bark bark.

minnie

Your are misinformed. The only tests that can determine that Terri's cortex has "liquified" are MRIs and PETs, neither of which Terri's husband has authorized for her. She has only had the less expensive and far less diagnostic CT scan.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/johansen200503160848.asp

minnie,

do you have to be such an insufferable b*tch?

I like this one. The Eighth Amendment guarantees that (ostensibly) painless lethal injection on a psychopathic 17-year-old is "cruel and unusual" but the painful starvation death of a perfectly innocent woman is not. Nice.

And to the gnome guy above: the husband's suffering? Yeah, that whole starting-a-new-life-with-another-woman thing is, um, grieving. That's it. Grieving.

There are so many issues on this case. The separation of powers issue--the judge is virtually ignoring all the laws that support her right to life, the fact that he's ruling for her death when she's not in a "persistent vegetative state" but will not allow new testing to be done, she has not had any rehabiliative care for 15 years including dental care, the fact that he's approved spending the money that was reserved for her rehabilitation for lawyer and court fees to end her life, that she has sustained injuries that are consistent with trauma (including but not limited to trauma to her neck which Michael Baden says is consistent with strangulation), the fact that her husband has a live-in relationship and 2 children by this other woman. The judge has struck down giving Terri a divorce, giving her parents custody, and interestingly, Michael's lawyer has a book out called "Litigation as Spiritual Practice". He is also on the board of the hospice Terri is in. Michael should not be her guardian since he might have caused her condition, and Terri has been denied her own legal representation. And those are just what I can think of off the top of my head.

cool - minnie's out on parole again.

In other news, it's heartening to see so many people who care about Terri's plight. Starving someone is not like unhooking the respirator; the body function is normal and only shuts down under the same circumstances as Minnie's cellmates - when intentionally deprived of food, water or air. Last time the court tried to facilitate "justice," Terri hung on for nine days without food and water.

She swallows at least 2 liters of liquid a day-her own saliva. She was fed by spoon until Michael put a stop to it. A nurse testified that she likes jello-she fed her with a spoon, but the 17 medical affidavits on file from MD's attesting to her responsiveness, and how she could respond if given therapy, have not been admitted in court. She is not hooked up to ventilators or any equipment to sustain her life. The only thing she needs to live is food and water, just like you and me.

I fought to protect a loved one from years of abuse and eventual murder by dehydration. The courts, the agencies that are supposed to protect the aged and disabled and the local police stood foursquare behind the abusers/murderers.

I was raised around elder care and was warned in the early 70s that this sort of thing was on the way. From what I have been told by good doctors and nurses the killing machine is going full speed already.

I have no sympathy for anyone who would kill another person in such an inhumane manner and view their supporters and protectors as subhuman filth.

Clear enough?

A texas baby died today after a hospital removed his feeding tube. The mother's story differed greatly from what the hospital said. Sadly, the hospital won and had more power than the childs DNA mother.

Let's go right to Dr. Wolfson's December 2003 report as guardian ad litem, appointed as a the result of "Terri's Law" (abstractappeal.com/schiavo/WolfsonReport.pdf)

1. "aggressive" therapy through 1994, including a trip to California for the implantation of an experimental brain stimulator. No results.
Terri fails at least 3 "gold standard" barium swallow tests.

2. Terri's parents actively encourage the husband to move on and date other women. They later admit they did this as a tactic to get him to give up guardianship. Recently they've accused him of a conflict of interest over this, without mentioning their role in the process.

3. At the October 2002 trial, to determine if there are any medical techniques that can improve her condition, despite the many affidavits posted on their website, the only neurologist the Schindlers can find willing to testify is under investigation by the medical board. He is later found guilty of financial exploitation by the board and spends over a year fighting to clear his license.

He claims incredible results for his techniques, but is completely unable to back up his claims with case histories or references to peer-reviewed medical literature. His clincial claims contradict known neurological theory.
(http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Tests/tcd.html)

Even Wolfson later notes the poor quality of his medical opinion, rejected by both the trial and appellate courts.

4. There continues to be NO verifyable evidence that Terri can improve. Even the newest affidavits advocate alternative therapies such as hyperbaric treatments, where no evidence exists as to its efficacy in treating brain injuries.

Not surprisingly, the physician advocating the alternative treatment often owns a facility that can provide such treatment. Cash only, no insurance (public or private) accepted.

5. At least one of Terri's friends testified at her malpractice trial that she was sure Terri had bulimia. Bulimia perfectly explains her low potassium level leading to the heart stoppage on the night of her collapse. It also explains why she stopped menstruating several months before.

The jury at the 1992 malpractice trial agrees, awarding close to $7 million in damages (later reduced to about $2 million in a settlement before appeal)

6. 10 years after the malpractice trial, almost immediately after the parents lose the October 2002 trial, they claim that the evidence of a bone scan taken a year after her collapse, and the interpretation by Dr. Walker, shows she was abused which caused her collapse.

But Dr. Walker, who never personally examines Terri, later admits in deposition that all the injuries he alleges could have just as easily been caused by the fall, the paramedics, and the physical therapy she received.
(http://www.hospicepatients.org/dr-walker-t-schiavo-bone-scan-deposition.txt)

Here's the CT scan:
miami.edu/ethics/schiavo/CT%20scan.png

As Dr. Wolfson noted,
"Theresa's neurological tests and CT scans indicate objective measures of the persistent vegetative state. These data indicate that Theresa's cerebral cortex is principally liquid, having shrunken due to the severe anoxic trauma experienced thirteen years ago"

St. Louis neurologist Dr.
William Burke describes death by starvation: "A conscious person
would feel the de-hydration just as you or I would.… They would go
into seizures, their skin cracks and bleeds and they may have
nosebleeds because of the drying of the mucus membrane. And
heaving and vomiting might ensue because of the drying of the
stomach lining…. They feel the pain of hunger and thirst. Imagine
going one day without a glass of water…. Death by dehydration
takes 10 to 14 days and is an extremely agonizing death."

There is a lot of question about the motivations of the estranged husband. Last night he had another interview on ABC.

After examining the uncontested facts and Schiavo's statements, it is clear that he is not rational.

Viewing the video from the interview makes this even more obvious. He chooses to "believe" what he wants to reinforce a very weak psyche. That doesn't change the facts and the fact that innocent people should not suffer from his self-imposed delusions.

George, you make reference to the Sun Hudson case (the Texas baby). Before you commented on how sad this was, did you bother to read the easily obtainable medical information about the baby's condition? Did you try to understand why the mother's story may have been just a little bit "off"? Did you try to find out how long the court ordered treatment? Did you try to do anything in the research department If so, you would know that the hospital removed his VENTILATOR tube not his FEEDING tube. It's okay if you didn't research this before giving your opinion, but a little research could have enlightened you.

"been there" - you could have just stopped typing after "a consciuos person"