Organized religion only leads to posts like yours or different lifestyles to deal with our human dilema.
Its about a person. Only one has Died and now lives. Guess who. Not Muhammmed. Not Joseph Smith. Not Ellen White.
Not Thomas Paine. Not Ghandi. Not Elvis. Not John Paul.
Not .....

Also What will you have to say about your life when you meet him face to face?

As an ex-Mormon, I can tell you that Mormons have been baptising the dead pretty much ever since they've been around.

However, I think you've got the timeline a bit messed up. See, after you die you're going to "spirit prison" where Mormons will show up to evangalize to you. (Yes, according to Mormon theology, they will be wearing suits and nametages and riding bicycles.) Then you will see the light, but you won't be able to go to heaven yet until you're baptised, so you'll sit around in spirit prison for a while waiting for some kind earthly person to be baptised for you.

Also, there is no Mormon hell. There are three levels of heaven, the highest of which is reserved for really good Mormons. Now there is outer darkness, but that's mostly reserved for apostates like me. I'll tell Satan "hi" for you.

Seriously, though. I'm now a Christian and I couldn't give a crap where Mormons think I'm going. If they want to baptise me (again), they're welcome to, so long as they quit sending me mail. I don't know that freedom from religion includes the right to not have people pray for you, or baptise you by proxy. Of course it would be nice if Mormons would stop when kindly asked to, but hey...whatever.

(Er, ever since the Mormons have been around, not ever since the dead have been around.)

The Mormons also remarry dead people to each other (the original Earthly cermony being insufficient.

From a practical point of view, these beliefs are great for genealogists, as the LDS church is probably the biggest repository of family history and genealogical information, not to mention old public records used to research genealogy. I've used their microfilms of 200 year old land records that they filmed in the '60s, long before anyone else cared about these kinds of records.

From a personal point of view, a lot worse things have been done in the name of religion. If the LDS wants to dig up 200 year old marriage and birth records and hold mass proxy baptisms and sealing ceremonies, that's fine by me. I'm pretty sure God won't get confused.

I have had a number of Morman friends over the years. I like 'em. They never tried to convert me. They always were very generous people. And they were a lot of fun. And yeah, they've been converting the dead forever.

Taking the Bible literally, I would think that the idea that everyone was decended from Noah would be more accurate.

I don't understand what the big deal is. I agree with TomT and Raina here.

Someone who gets upset about what these guys do to "spirits of the dead" in their temple makes me think they actually believe it. It's like a Christian going nuts over statues of Greek gods in front of government buildings.

Come to think of it, I've never heard of that happening. It's always the rabid theophobes raising a hue and cry about the Ten Commandments being displayed. Wonder why that is?

It's going to be pretty hard to stop people from doing something their religion says they must do (as we've learned from the jihadists). While I sympathize with the Jews who object (and for the reasons they object), I hope, for their own peace of mind, they'll be able to brush this (baptizing) off as a meaningless activity from their own religion's point of view.

I guess as a Mormon fan of your website I guess I ought to weigh in. Pretty insulting and misinformed post. Baptisms for the dead were performed in the early christian church. Read 1 Corinthians 15:29. If you don't buy into Mormon theology, what's to get upset about if, after you die, someone is baptized in your name? Its just a joke, right? Why so touchy, seriously. There are all kinds of religious doctrines I think are crazy. Live and let live I say. Also, the doctrine is not that all nonmormons go to "hell." Spirit prison is not punishment. Missionaries don't come around on bikes with nametags. The idea is that Christ said everyone was required to be baptized, and many people never have that opportunity in this life. So there is a means by which they can accept baptism in the next life. IF THEY CHOOSE IT. The doctrine is not that anyone is compelled to accept any ordinance performed on their behalf. Only that they can accept it if they choose to. Anyway, if, for whatever reason, you feel compelled to mock other people's deeply held beliefs, you might as well get informed first. I don't get offended easily though, I had worse insults, and beer bottles, tossed at me for my beliefs on my mission. I'll still be a regular at Wizbang, but a bit less enthusiastic.

I spent most of the 1980's in Utah. I agree with Julie, they're good people, but they do indeed have some really goofy beliefs. Fortunately, none of it involves suicide bombing and flying planes into buildings. There's lots worse things than being posthumously converted -- Jews should know this better than anybody.

Missionaries don't come around on bikes with nametags.

Er, that was sarcasm.

Being Jewish I can tell you it's extremely insulting. They have declared their very young religion to be the only way into heaven, but claim to be Christian at the same time. They worship a Jew but tell everyone and have convinced themselves that Jews can't go to heaven unless they become Mormon. I can't seem to find any record of Jesus becoming a Mormon so I guess by their rules he won't be there. There will be Pepsi in heaven though, but no Coke, Coke has caffeine. Wait a minute! Pepsi does too, but Pepsi is ok because the Mormon church inherited all that Pepsi stock. Ok, I'm no longer offended by this, any religion that goofy isn't capable of bothering me too much. They just need to go have a Coke and a smile and quit dunking people that didn't ask for it.

If the Mormons are wrong, what is the harm and where is the insult? Either there is an afterlife and the Mormons are wrong and the Jews are sitting up there laughing at the Mormons, there is no afterlife, or there is a chance that the Mormons are right. Any way you look at it, I can't see anything insulting about it. And if the Mormons are right, then those Jews are thanking 'em.

Long time listening, first time poster. As a card carrying Mormon and a daily reader, I'm taken back by this thread and it makes me sad to read it. I would expect better. I agree 100% with Justin B on this. I know that I try to be the best person I can. Mormons, like most people, try to do good to all people, to have reverence for those who have past before us and those who are still alive. I know that mocking what we truely do not understand maybe the flavor of the day in these parts, but if you would really understand why the practice is in force, I bet you all would be a bit more sensative to its purpose. I know it seems like a Mormon only issue here, But like someone else said, Peter did talk about baptism for the dead in the new testiment.

You know, several other religions believe that some dude was born from a woman that was a virgin and was the son of God, then died for the world's sins, and then was resurrected. That sums up the beliefs of about a Billion people. That sure sounds even weirder than baptising dead people.

Quite Frankly, the Jews were pretty upset at these people too since the Jews killed that guy.

So Jay, what exactly makes the Mormon belief in baptising dead people any more ridiculous than the belief that some dude named Jesus was the son of God and died for the sins of the world? You say taking it to new and outrageous levels--but for someone that is "not overly religious", how can you be outraged by Mormons but not the entire premise of Christianity? Oh, wait, Christianity is popular and the Mormons are weirdos so anything they do is outrageous.

Come on Jay. The people are dead. And if the Mormons are wrong, then these baptisms for the dead are not insulting--rather they are a big waste of time.

As someone who works for Starbucks and lives in Utah, I can tell you that only the staunch LDS view caffeine with disdain, and then only within their ward. Business is good and getting better everyday. Can you say hypocracy?

Before we start throwing around "Mormon rumors" lets try and do the very least bit of fact checking. You can find this quote here at www.snopes.com

A variant of this rumor states that the Mormons own the Pepsi-Cola Company. That too is untrue. Like Coca-Cola, Pepsi is far too large for any group to own even a noticeable part of, let alone possess outright.

Underpinning this legend is the notion that Mormons are forbidden caffeinated beverages, thus how deliciously ironic it would be if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints quietly owned a company it raged against from the pulpit.

Though we hate to ruin a good bit of lore with the facts, the truth is that although Mormons have been advised by church leaders to avoid caffeinated beverages, this suggestion has not been passed down as official church doctrine to which all members in good standing must adhere (unlike, say, the admonitions against coffee, tea, tobacco and alcohol, which are church doctrine). Mormons can swill Coca-Cola, eschew it and all other caffeinated beverages, or indulge in the occasional Coke and still be considered churchgoers in good standing.

As a fellow member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (aka the "Mormon" church) I can second Mo's comments. Baptisms for the dead were done in the primitive church. All ordinances performed are done in behalf of the dead. They can choose to accept it or not, just like we choose to accept anything when we are alive. I would be offended by this post if I didn't understand how easy it is to get caught up in religious gossip. A juicy little piece of information about someone's faith can easily turn into a sarcastic little snip--especially on the blogosphere. It would be nice though, if we could try and lay off of people's deeply held convictions. Too often in this world its just too common to kick those around. And to me, that is a real shame.

In regards to the caffeine issue, there is actually no Mormon doctrine against caffeine. The passage in question reads "hot drinks" which has been interpreted to mean coffee and black tea. It has been speculated that the reason coffee is banned is because of caffeine, and so many mormons don't drink any caffeinated drink, but it's not formal doctrine. Of course this was written in 1832 before caffeinated sodas, un-caffeinated coffee, etc.

Jay, your attitude boils down to caring about what Mormons think of you. Yes, theologically, we think you, and Jews, and Catholics, etc. are wrong. Everyone else thinks we are wrong. Now that we've gotten past that, why should you care? We aren't going to interfere with your right to religion, or lack thereof (religious tolerance hardwired into our scriptures). That we believe that all people will be given an opportunity to hear Christ's gospel in its entirety, and that we have been given the task of ensuring that all people have the opportunity for baptism (ie, said individuals can reject it), well, that sounds better than fire and brimstone, IMO.

In any event, I'm much more concerned about what God thinks of me and my beliefs than what Catholics, Jews, atheists, etc. think. And isn't that the way it should be?

Well, I can see why jews may be sensitive to the practise. They've had to put up with a lot over the millenniums. But, I still like mormans.

Not to throw gasoline on the fire (okay, I lied - why else would I post this?) but one of the long-standing conspiracy theories about the Mormons accuses them of performing proxy baptism and marriage for Adolf Hitler and Eva Braun.

http://ezek27.truepath.com/adolf.html

bullwinkle

If you're happy and comfortable being Jewish than the Mormon eccentricity shouldn't be bothering you.

For all I know some of the people behind the hate emails and posts I've received lately may be sticking pins in voodoo dolls of me.

If that floats their boat and keeps THEM physically away from me, hey. I'm quite comfortable in my belief system.

My paternal grandmother was Mormon ... a pretty cool gal whose family made the trek with Brigham Young into Salt Lake (actually, what might be referred to as a Jack Mormon..she hid her cigarettes and booze when the elders came calling). My family is a kind of crossroads of several religions so I'm pretty copacetic with everyone choosing their own way. I don't argue "faith" only behavior and if secretly baptising ghosts is the worst charge we got against Mormons I'd be happy that was the worst of any religion.

As a believing Mormon and regular reader I'm having a most curious reaction to "J's" comments on Mormon proxy baptisms.

Once and a while some author you respect writes about a subject that you actually know something about. And, you see first hand that this author completely butchers the topic with exaggerations, misrepresentations and ignorance.

You wonder to yourself, "Wow...are all of this fellow's writings as ill informed and misleading?"

I can only hope that tonight's blog on Mormons is a one-time failure. I'd hate to think that the other facts an opinions being served up on this blog are as badly butchered as this one was.

It is a lesson that you cannot believe everything you read on a blog.

Clearly, such an innocuous practice is no stranger than a priest absolving criminals of their sin or literally eating the body of God each Sunday. Why does it continue to be fashionable to pick on religions of the few? Perhaps it is time now to pick on the Quaker's silly practices, or better yet, pick on a religion of your own size.

I think Jay was trying to be funny. I don't think he was trying, even though he obviously has, offend anyone here.

And, if that won't placate you, I got the rope and the tree already picked out. :p

I am in the "if you don't believe it, what they do shouldn't really bother you" camp.

Honestly there is really no reason to get worked up over this.

Disliking people knocking on your door, or invading your privacy is one thing, but if you aren't a believer in that sect, if you get baptized, and you don't know it or even if you do, is it really hurting you in some way? Not really.

The pastor of my church (mainline protestant denomination) had a sister who was a mormon, and she had him baptized by proxy (yes mormons also baptize the living by proxy). He thought it was funny, and found the humor in it.

Well, let's see. If the Mormons are right, then as pissed off as you may be now that they're baptizing your relatives, you'll thank them when you die.

If they are wrong, then it doesn't make a hill of beans difference WHAT they do, your relatives' eternal fate will be unchanged.

What's the big friggin' deal about letting them have their fun?

Now, that reminds me of a joke. The Pope calls an emergency meeting of his cardinals, and says, "I have good news and bad news. The good news is that Jesus Christ has returned, and I just spoke with him on the phone. The bad news is, he was calling from Salt Lake City." (rimshot)

They (at least some) believe in God having used a talking salamander as a messenger, and you find this latest odd?

Just Me:

I'm 99.999999999% sure that the living cannot be baptized by proxy, and 100% sure that they cannot be baptized by proxy in the scenario that you describe. I think that his sister was joking around with him, or he was joking around with you.

Jumbo:

No true Mormon believes that God talked to Joseph Smith through a salamander (that is how the myth goes, right?).

And to anyone interested in clearing any misconceptions they have about the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, here are some good starting points:

Mormon.org

Newsroom.LDS.org

Also What will you have to say about your life when you meet him face to face?

I was framed.

Yeah yeah, St. Francis preaches God's Word to birdies, and God talk back through a salamander. Perhaps that was one of the two salamanders God commanded Noah to load on a ark. Get over it people. Religion is GOOD, despite the very human need of some folks to elevate themselves above it.

blackbird you may possibly be correct (I was an preteen when our pastor referred to this, so it is also possible I misunderstood-in that his sister may have intended to do it).

I admit I don't know well enough to say for certain.

Oh Jay Tea, you came up with a good one to stimulate posts!

I share your general disdain for organized religion. The LDSer's are just about as organized as you can get. They even have their own State. They aren't always so friendly. Past history shows that they didn't come West just because they were looking for a Great Salt Lake. Even in recent history, twangs of arrogance see through. Anyone remember the "Have a nice day - somewhere else!" campaign in the late 80's? I drove through Utah then and felt like definitely like a unwanted foreigner at every interaction with the faithful there.

However I never met a Mormon I didn't like. I even have a hand in one old friend's conversion to the Church (I hope Jehovah forgives me). They stick together and take care of each other, and