Good post Jay. It is way past time for the "moderate muslims" to grow a spine. If they are truly opposed to the radical elements that have highjacked their religion, they need to prove it, now.

Too bad muslims can't read. Good post!

Hmmm.

The Crusades were in *response* to muslim aggression. Many of the cities and areas of the Holy Lands were entirely in the hands of the Christians from the Roman times. The Crusades didn't happen until muslim armies tried to take over all of the Holy Lands on their march to Constantinople.

Today that's called Istanbul and yes it too was once Christian.

Excellent points, Jay Tea and EXDemocrat! Bravi!

Hmmmm.

One curious thing I've noticed is that muslims trying to defend some of the more indefensible things that muslims have done over the centuries often have a two-faced approach to history. If it's something terrible done by muslims then "that's so 500 years ago!". If it's something done by Christians then "that's terrible and a horrible reflection on you nasty ass people!".

The simple fact is that muslims have been kidnapping, raping, murdering and robbing Christians for the past 1,400 years without a single break in that time period.

That says more about the "Religion of Peace" than anything else. Frankly I for one have had enough of the bullcrap. If muslims are unwilling to face reality then that's their problem.

Personally I don't think Islam can be reformed. It's structure simply doesn't allow for it. Such "reform" as has happened in the past was due to the utter slaughter en masse of militants. Frankly I think what's needed to "reform" Islam today might be the same medicine, i.e. slaughter. I have yet to see one instance of violent militants being "reformed" at all. This says quite a bit that many people would rather ignore, but there you go.

The one thing that is inescapable is the possibility, that we all hope won't happen, is the necessity of destroying Islam and killing every single muslim on Earth. Sounds excessive doesn't it? The issue is that Islam is never fully reformed and never *stays* reformed. Such reformations that have happened are always temporary. What issues we solve today will happen again and again and again. The history of Islam shows this to be the only reality.

Our children and grandchildren might not have to deal with these issues yet again. But you can be absolutely certain that within a century or so, or less, the issue of Islamic militants detonating bombs and killing infidels will come up yet again.

To add to what Ed said, how many of those towns and cities that were Christian prior to the Muslim invasion became Christian by force? The Romans, before Christ came along, did the conquest thing in the holy land, but the Christians? Not so much.

ed: Istanbul was Constantinople, if you had a date in Constantinople, she'll be waiting in Istanbul. (At this point, I break out into song, thanks to They Might Be Giants.)

But seriously, from what I know, your version of events is roughly correct. However, there are some who feel the Muslim agression towards the Byzantines, who were Christian, was used as an "excuse" for the Crusades. I think it was more a case of Christians coming to the aid of Christians; but let's just say, it's not quite a cut and dried anlysis of the situation.

Jowever, looking at ed's 2nd post...
I do think Islam can reform. It is a basic tennant of my faith that all of mankind has it within them to rise above our base desires and resist temptations. BUt there is a difference between what one can do, and what one does. Hopefully Islam will live up to human potential before the rest of the world loses their tolerance.

Hmmmm.

To add to what Ed said, how many of those towns and cities that were Christian prior to the Muslim invasion became Christian by force? The Romans, before Christ came along, did the conquest thing in the holy land, but the Christians? Not so much.

It takes a special kind of ignorance to not understand that the Holy Lands converted to Christianity when the *rest of the Roman Empire converted to Christianity*.

Numbnuts.

Hmmm.

But seriously, from what I know, your version of events is roughly correct. However, there are some who feel the Muslim agression towards the Byzantines, who were Christian, was used as an "excuse" for the Crusades.

Completely wrong. The First Crusades was in response to muslim aggression against, I believe, Acre, not Constantinople. The campaign against Constantinople didn't happen for a couple centuries later once the Holy Lands were conquered.

OK, I realize that WikiPedia is not a great source for facts, but it's easy to access, and here's what they have to say about the First Crusade:

After Byzantine emperor Alexius I called for help with defending his empire against the Seljuk Turks, in 1095 at the Council of Clermont Pope Urban II called upon all Christians to join a war against the Turks, a war which would count as full penance. Crusader armies marched to Jerusalem, sacking several cities on their way. In 1099, they took Jerusalem and massacred the population. As a result of the First Crusade, several small Crusader states were created, notably the Kingdom of Jerusalem.

Also according to Wikipedia, Acre was taken in 638, well before the First Crusade, and not recaptured until the Second Crusade in 1104.

While we're disagreeing on the exact occurrences, I'm not disagreeing with you fundamentally. The Crusades were, AT LEAST in part, a reaction to Muslim aggression. I just don't know if that was the ONLY cause of the Crusades. I think you can make a good case arguing the Crusades would not have happened if Muslim groups were not expanding their territories into the Middle East and Europe at the time.

My curiosity piqued ... Wikipedia has a very in-depth entry on the subject. There were many crusades with different motivations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

I have not digested it yet.

News reports show that scores of relatives of those drowned on the Red Sea ferry protested at the ferry owners' offices. As we have seen before, the crowd became violent and was throwing the company's furniture into the street and burning its signboard. Be it cartoons or tragic accidents, the response is violence in the street, threats and retaliation.

There are two root causes of the violence in the middle east, the Bedouin culture and Islam. The values of which make them incompatible with civilized nations with secular laws. As such, all such nations should stop all immigration of people who hold such incompatible ideas. Let them visit and let them attend our universities, but send them back.

As Demark has discovered too late, such immigrants have no desire to reform themselves to fit into their new home, but rather what to reform the host nation to fit their culture and religion and then impose both on the native population.

If the West is too stupid to see what's going on and change immigration policy, then we risk losing our most basic freedoms.

Moderate Muslim is almost becoming an Oxymoron. I honestly have not seen any moderate Muslim protest the violence going on in response to the cartoon riots, the riots in France or protesting the violent actions of Al Queda. Give me some examples....please!!!!

Actually the Romans really did not need to conquer Israel. It sort of fell into the Romans lap during the Civil War of the later Maccabeans. Antipater was essentially made Governor during the Roman Civil Wars, he was assassinated and Herod took over in 36 bce and had his position secure by his patronage relationship with Augustus and his marriage into the Maccabean Family. When the Persians invaded Herod used his resources plus Roman Auxiliary to take the area back and Augustus duly rewarded him for his efforts.

Nicholas, the Crusades began when Alexius sought two things from the Pope. First, a way to end the Schism of 1054 when the Eastern and Western Churches were excommunicated from each other. Both Pope Urban and Emperor Alexius worked hard to try to heal that breech. Secondly, Emperor Alexius was trying to stablize the Eastern Roman Empire (I loathe the term Byzantine) after the battle of Manizkert by rebuilding the Byzantine Armies and taking back some of the territories that the Selijuk Turks overwhelmed in Antolia during the years following 1071. Emperor Alexius, according to Norwich, asked for knights to supplement his army. Instead he received one of the largest armies fielded by Europe at the time. It was an absolute shock to the Emperor. And the distrust that developed reached a climax at the 4th Crusade.

The only reason "Moderate Muslims" refuse to stand up to their psychotic brethren, is that they do not want a fatwah coming down on their heads. Face it, Islam is a religion of Hate and Intolerance. They will always find or make up a justification for the poison crap they pull around the globe. Time to break out the Big Rat Traps.....

It takes a special kind of ignorance to not understand that the Holy Lands converted to Christianity when the *rest of the Roman Empire converted to Christianity*.
Numbnuts.

I believe that was the point.... :)

Mac Lorry,

One major point. You can see the same reactions in the US when an atrocity/accident happens involving the poor and/or uneducated. Look at New Orleans and LA (after Rodney King), etc. Those that have little or no education immediately result to violence, because it is the easiest way to express themselves.

One of the best things the US is doing in Afgan and Iraq is building schools to educate the poor. It is easy for an Imam to say the Koran or Allah says so, if the followers can't read and must take the holy man's word (and of course a Holy man would never lie).

Oh, and for those who say, but many of the leaders of AQ are the rich and well-educated:
A few points:
1) There are a few who are easily brain washed and are just looking for something to give their life meaning. Patti Davis anyone?

2) Look at the liberal left in the US. You can't tell me that the majority of actors/actresses have any understanding of world economics, but they voice their opinions as experts. Bill Ford supports every liberal organization, even those that are anti-capitalist, but he makes all his money (by inheritance, truthfully) by capitalism.

3) And some of the rich have nothing better to do and will never affect their worlds in a major way, unless they become cult leaders. (I'm the 45th child by the 7th wife, in line for the royal throne, daddy has never shown me any love, he thinks I can't accomplish anything, What can I do to get attention?) And then some "radical" muslim scholar or maid or gardener takes the royal brat under their wing and TADA our next martyr or super rich leader.

Islams major stumbling block to becoming the "Religion of Peace" it claims to be is the ignorance of the masses. Christians and Catholics had the same problems until the public education got rolling.

Robert,

I imagine that your average "moderate muslim" is a lot like your average Republican. We see the loony left protesting this and that and making outrageous statements and then we shake our heads and go back to work. Some small groups (i.e. Protest Warrior, and uh..... see what I mean) come out and counter protest against NOW and ANSWER but you hardly (never) see them on TV. I have seen small groups of muslims protest against the terrorists, but once again, they don't get a lot of airtime. The moderate muslim exists, he is just busy raising his family and providing for them.

cstmbld, great points. But could you possibly mean not Patti Davis (daughter of Ronald Reagan), but Patty Hearst, the newspaper heiress kidnapped and brainwashed by the Symbionese Liberation Army?

It's real easy for me to pick up on oopsies like this -- I make 'em myself all the time. Just ask around.

J.

Your definition of "moderate Muslim" is a lackey of Washington who will not mind being insulted and attacked. Such people are few in the world.
Muslims are not collectively guilty neither do they have to answer for what autonomous loonies like AlQaeda etc do. Track down Qaeda and ask them your questions.

No, Robert. You're not going to get many (if any) examples of Muslims protesting the murder and butchery of innocents.
What you might get instead is a headline in the local paper stating: "Local clerics call for calm and warn against retribution towards all the peace loving Muslims following tomorrow morning's attacks".

There will be no 'reformation' of Islam. It's a 7th century warrior religion. To 'reform' it to conform to modern civilization's sensibilities would be to completely gut it of all of its meaning. And that is the real root of the problem.
"A religion of tolerance and peace"? Yeah, for fellow muslims it is but not for 'the infidels' (that would be you and me). You see, there are two sets of rules in the Qu'ran. One set for muslims and one set for everyone else. Its perfectly acceptable to lie, cheat, steal or murder....just not against another muslim. Convenient, huh?

Why do you suppose there was outrage in the Arab world when Zarquawi's merry band of head hackers blew up that muslim wedding in Jordon? And yet, when they blew up the WTC and murdered 3000 innocents they were dancing in the streets! And the outrage amoung American muslims....? (cue the crickets).

American muslims aren't exactly strapping bombs to themselves and walking into Disneyland..this is true. But I find their erie silence and apparent lack of outrage regarding muslim atrocities around the globe disturbing. Not suprising...but disturbing.

I would encourage each of you (every American) to go to the local bookstore and (for $12 bucks) buy a copy of the Qu'ran and give it quick read. But, be warned! You won't sleep so well at night!

"Prostelizing is not an in-alienable human right. If we expect others to respect us we must respect them, and the surest way to kill any conversation with a person is to say you are going to enternal damnation if you don't believe in Christ. It is their law and their country we must respect that."

The hypocrisy in this statement is mind-boggling. Muslims are rioting, burning, and threatening to kill because somebody violated a tenent of their religion, which they believe trumps the civil laws of Denmark.

Yet, Christians must place the civil law of Saudi Arabia over a central tenent of THEIR religion and refrain from proselytizing*.

(*) A note about Christian proseltyzing and "The Great Commission": yes, we Christians believe that the only way to be saved is through faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, who died on the cross for the sins of all men, was buried, rose from the dead, and ascended into Heaven. I realize that many Christians emphasize the negative in this, and attempt to use the fear of hell to frighten people into believing. I prefer to look at the positive side: God so LOVED the world that He gave His only begotton Son. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is good news of love, mercy, and salvation.

At its core, Christian proselytizing seeks not to force people to accept Christ, but to earnestly testify to all men so that they may know and accept Him and share in the precious gift of forgiveness and eternal life that He paid for with His own body and blood.

cstmbuild,

Your comparisons are weak at best. The violence in New Orleans and LA (after Rodney King) were caused by a population that feels disenfranchised and feels that way with some justification. These are also relatively rare events, unlike the Middle East where street violence is a common event, and not by a disenfranchised minority.

Islams major stumbling block to becoming the "Religion of Peace" it claims to be is the ignorance of the masses. Christians and Catholics had the same problems until the public education got rolling.

For your comparison to be valid you have to show two factors, first that the Muslim masses we see rioting in the streets are illiterate and second that the Koran is not available to them. Both were factors in religious based violence between Protestant and Catholic groups (both groups are Christian) prior to when "the public education got rolling" as you claim. I doubt you can show either factor is valid for the Muslim masses we see rioting in the streets let along both factors.

I believe the cause of the Middle East violence are rooted in the Bedouin culture and Islam. It seems that Islam doesn't teach that God is well able to deal with people who openly disrespect Him and that believers should not take it upon themselves to act. If Islam does have such teachings, then the violence is caused by a lack of faith on the part of the believers. That lack of faith shows far greater disrespect of God than any of the cartoons that have inciting the violence. Islam is being insulted by the disbelief of it's own followers who think God depends on their puny power to defend Him.

cstmbuild,

Ignore prior post, I goofed up the blockquote. Here's the way it should look.

Your comparisons are weak at best. The violence in New Orleans and LA (after Rodney King were caused by a population that feels disenfranchised and with some justification. These are also relatively rare events, unlike the Middle East where street violence is a common event, and not by a disenfranchised minority.

Islams major stumbling block to becoming the "Religion of Peace" it claims to be is the ignorance of the masses. Christians and Catholics had the same problems until the public education got rolling.

For your comparison to be valid you have to show two factors, first that the Muslim masses we see rioting in the streets are illiterate and second that the Koran is not available to them. Both were factors in religious based violence between Protestant and Catholic groups (both groups are Christian) prior to when "the public education got rolling" as you claim. I doubt you can show either factor is valid for the Muslim masses we see rioting in the streets let along both factors.

I believe the cause of the Middle East violence are rooted in the Bedouin culture and Islam. It seems that Islam doesn't teach that God is well able to deal with people who openly disrespect Him and that believers should not take it upon themselves to act. If Islam does have such teachings, then the violence is caused by a lack of faith on the part of the believers. That lack of faith shows far greater disrespect of God than any of the cartoons that have inciting the violence. Islam is being insulted by the disbelief of it's own followers who think God depends on their puny power to defend Him.

Ok, here's a little quiz for all of you insightful political analysts, who think that Islam, or the "Bedouin Culture" are the main problem here:

Name the major difference between the nation of Turkey on the one hand, and Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, or Pakistan on the other.

Anyone?

They all have plenty of Muslims, so the practice of Islam isnt the major difference. Hmmm. Oh yes, thats right, Turkey actually has a representative government.

Now, go look and see how people in that country reacted to the recent cartoon absurdities. Interesting.

It's not Islam kids. The lack of democracy and the prevalence of oppressive regimes is the problem in the Middle East. Saddam Hussein, one of the more recent problems there, was a SECULAR leader.

ryan,

You need to read the news. There was also street violence in Turkey over the cartoons. That behavior should help those who oppose Turkey joining the EU. The common denominator is the Bedouin culture and Islam.

Amazing how Saudis (in particular) demand the right to pour huge amounts of money into nations worldwide to spread THEIR religion, but try and hold an Easter service somewhere in Saudi Arabia and you'll be lucky if you leave alive.

What a weak religion that must ban all competition and can only be spread by billions in petrodollars.

"Actually, America has quite a few ties with the former Yugoslavia. For one, a lot of Americans can trace their ancestry to Yugoslavia. For another, several thousand Americans have served in the former Yugoslavia over the last decade -- most notably protecting Muslims there from being slaughtered. Many bled and died there. Perhaps you ought to choose another nation? Good luck --"

Thank you for a brilliant post Jay. Clarifying America's relationship with the former Yugoslavia brings you straight onto my Christmas Card List (the one that has Merry Christmas on it, and not Happy Atheist Day)

Ryan, your wrong. Nearly every Muslim state, and even countries that have predominately Muslim minorities are rioting. They are definately rioting in Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and even India! It simple does not matter if the country has a representative democracy (Hence Europe, India and Turkey) or is under a dictatorship. Your hypothesis fails.

Bottom line: Muslims suck--all problem areas of the globe have Muslims involved. By and large their culture is stupid, dangerously immature, and doesn't contribute anything to the betterment of the world. Lunatics.