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Where was John Kerry, Christmas 1968?

There is more investigative journalism being done in the blogosphere this week than in the Washington Post, NY Times and USA Today combined. I'm piggy backing the work of others and compiling in a nice package of every version of John Kerry's "Christmas in Cambodia" story I can find. I don't need to prove he was not in Cambodia or that Nixon was not President in 1968, follow some of my links, those facts have been well established. I'm just putting the varying versions all in one place.

As he told to the Boston Herald 1979
"I remember spending Christmas Eve of 1968 five miles across the Cambodian border being shot at by our South Vietnamese allies who were drunk and celebrating Christmas. The absurdity of almost killed by our own allies in a country in which President Nixon claimed there were no American troops was very real. "

In a country where they did not belong but had time to party. hmmmm


Congressional Record 1986
"Mr. President, I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the President of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared--seared--in me, that says to me, before we send another generation into harm's way we have a responsibility in the U.S. Senate to go the last step, to make the best effort possible in order to avoid that kind of conflict."

Same country, no party, firefight.


As told in his Biography
Christmas eve, 1968, turned out to be memorable....the crew headed their Swift...only miles from the Cambodian border. Because they were only an hour from that country, Kerry began reading up on Cambodian history.

hmmm One hour in a bout that does 30 MPH should be abut 30 miles right?


Entry into his own diary
A briefing with the Navy and another refueling and then away again. You have lost half the day just relaxing at Sa Doc, [60 miles from Cambodia] taking in the scene and basking in the security of your thoughts and the memories that today come steadily and quickly. Again you pull away from a pier and you start out on patrol ...

Or he might have spent half the day relaxing, 60 miles away.


The Boston Globe ran a fawning story in June 2004 which read:
"The Christmas Eve truce of 1968 was three minutes old when mortar fire exploded around John Forbes Kerry and his five-man crew on a 50-foot aluminum boat near Cambodia. ''Where is the enemy?'' a crewmate shouted." ...

To top it off, Kerry said, he had gone several miles inside Cambodia, which theoretically was off limits, prompting Kerry to send a sarcastic message to his superiors that he was writing from the Navy's "most inland" unit.

Firefight in Cambodia again. -While on patrol.


Associated Press 1992
...By Christmas 1968, part of Kerry's patrol extended across the border of South Vietnam into Cambodia.
"We were told, `Just go up there and do your patrol. Everybody was over there (in Cambodia). Nobody thought twice about it," Kerry said. One of the missions, which Kerry, at the time, was ordered not to discuss, involved taking CIA operatives into Cambodia to search for enemy enclaves.

Now he's in Cambodia bringing in CIA looking for "enemy enclaves."


1992 States News Service
Kerry, who served in Vietnam on a gunboat in the Mekong Delta from 1968 to 1969, said he was involved in a "black mission" near Cambodia. "On Christmas Eve of 1968, I was on a gunboat in a firefight that wasn't supposed to be taking place," Kerry recalled. "I thought, if I'm killed here, what will my family be told?"

If it was "near" Cambodia why wasn't he supposed to be there?


Kerry's own website has him working for the CIA

"My good luck hat," Kerry said, happy to see it. "Given to me by a CIA guy as we went in for a special mission in Cambodia."

I'd tell you about it- but then I'd have to kill you.


May 2000 U.S. News and World Reports
"Sen. John Kerry made his first forays into Cambodia during the Vietnam War as a Navy lieutenant on clandestine missions to deliver weapons to anticommunist forces."

OH!-- So now he was delivering weapons with the CIA.


Reading this you could get the impression he really was in Cambodia on a CIA mission that he could not talk about. Remember the fact he was never in Cambodia was well established, check the many links. The whole CIA thing is dubious.

This is a compilation of many sources, including some incredible work from; No Oil for Pacifists, Tom Maguire and Insta P Mine was merely presentation. (Anyone wishing to mail this link to the mainstream media, feel free, we don't mind doing their job for them.)

If I missed any, lemme know.


TrackBack

Listed below are links to weblogs that reference Where was John Kerry, Christmas 1968?:

» mypetjawa v. 2.0 (beta) linked with John Kerry's Real Cambodian Visit Revealed

» King of Fools linked with Out of Cambodia

» camedwards.com linked with Cambodia Collapses

» In Search of Utopia linked with The Cambodian Chronicles

» Mr. Blonde's Garage linked with "It's The Most Wonderful Time Of The Year"

» Les Jones Blog linked with Kerry Retracts 30 Years of Cambodia Claims

» Autonomous Source linked with Stuff and Things III

» Hold The Mayo linked with 12 Days in the Fog of War

» ~Neophyte Pundit~ linked with John Kerry's Vietnam Experience

» You Big Mouth, You! linked with Christmas in Cambodia

» Big Lizards linked with Lying About Lying About Lying

Comments (39)

Kerry was in Cambodia, befo... (Below threshold)
-S-:

Kerry was in Cambodia, before he wasn't. At which time, he was with the CIA, just before he was. In Cambodia...umm, Chewbacca!

The Left-wing MSM ALL publi... (Below threshold)
daniel:

The Left-wing MSM ALL published one version (or another) of Kerry's Christmas In Cabodia yarn.

Yet they REFUSE to cover the discrepancies in that yarn.

This PROVES they're biased FOR Kerry: because if the yarn was good enough to initially publish, then the "fisking" of that yarn is MORE THAN good enough for publication, too.


This is some good compilati... (Below threshold)

This is some good compilation work Paul. I am going to be watching this story. All partisan jokes aside, it will be interesting to see how it works out.
And if it turns out he WAS in Cambodian waters in '68, I am sure you guys will cover that with equal vigor right? I will touch on this subject on my Blog today.

I think he's busted, hard, ... (Below threshold)

I think he's busted, hard, on this, but one thing in one version has been bugging me: the drunk South Vietnamese soldiers celebrating Christmas by busting off caps. When did Christian missionaries overrun Vietnam? When I first read that version the old Bob Geldolf charity tune kicked right into its chorus in my skull.

I think what maybe surprise... (Below threshold)
David C:

I think what maybe surprises me the most is that Kerry has been using the rather absurdly checkable non-fact that in December 1968, the evil Nixon administration's secret war in Cambodia was well underway, even though Nixon was a mere President-Elect at that time!

But then again, we've got contemporary commentators criticizing George W. Bush for not immediately doing something about the USS Cole attack, notwithstanding the fact that he was governor of Texas at the time....

None of this matters much s... (Below threshold)

None of this matters much since Kerry will be assassinated by Bush operatives who will make it look like al Qaeda did it. Or is that assassinated by al Qaeda who will make it look like Bush operatives did it? I'm so confused! Anyway it must be true since I read it on DU.

Kerry's already pulled away... (Below threshold)

Kerry's already pulled away from the Cambodia story with Tour of Duty. That's the one thing that I think people aren't catching. Kerry's personally chosen biographer couldn't or wouldn't back up the story. That's where any notion that Kerry's going to be able to come up with evidence that he was in fact in Cambodia hits reality.

Thanks for the links, Paul!

Here's another; the local d... (Below threshold)
Ripper:

Here's another; the local depository library has the 1991 Kerry POW Senate Report on microfilm, he mentions the previous vists on page one, image attached.

http://free.prohosting.com/cyberdog/c.jpg
http://free.prohosting.com/cyberdog/p1.JPG

Author: John F. Kerry
July 1991

Trip to Thailand Cabodia and Vietnam

here's the relevant part on page 1
"... During the war, military operations had carried me throughout many of the waterways and coast lines of southern Vietnam and even, occasionally, into Cambodia. "

images of these pages to follow


Here's the refernce info, so you can make your own copy.

1750.
Author: Kerry, John, 1943-
Title: Trip to Thailand, Cambodia, and Vietnam report to the Committee
on Foreign Relations, United States Senate.
Publisher: Washington : U.S. G.P.O. :For sale by the Supt. of Docs.,
Congressional Sales Office, U.S. G.P.O., 1991.
Description: v, 16 p. ; 24 cm.

Doc. Numbers: GPO Item No.: 1039-A, 1039-B (MF)
Govt Doc No.: Y 4.F 76/2:S.prt.102-40.

The US has long claimed not... (Below threshold)

The US has long claimed not to have been operating in many areas of the word that it has since been found to have had some involvment, including the bombing of Chinese factories north of the Korean border and the CIA assistance during the Iran Contra affair, I wouldn't be supprised if Kerry was operating where there wern't supposed to be US troops.

It is the nature of war that you have to lie to your own people and to the international comunity, and it is the nature of politics that you must continue that lie after the war until it becomes widely accepted that it was OK to tell it.

But does this really matter to the elections. Kerry didn't order troops across the border, he was ordered to go himself. Why would he lie to discredit an already questionable president during a war that a lot of people didn't support. He could have simply said "I don't remember where I was, one day seems pretty much like the other in Vietnam".

Kerry, get back to how you will create jobs and stop the US dependancy of imported oil.

Bush, get back to how you will win the peace.

I think the sooner people l... (Below threshold)
firstbrokenangel:

I think the sooner people learn about who and what Kerry is, the better. It made me sick to my stomach when he entered the DNC, saluted and said "I'm john kerry, reporting for duty!" He was a wuss in the war and the more he brings it up, the more mud he will get mired in and the sooner people realize this about him the better, and better now than later when it's too late to do anything about him.

This is somewhat interestin... (Below threshold)
drj:

This is somewhat interesting, although I still think real issues are a lot more important than this stuff. Still, let me shoot a few holes in this while I'm here:

- one of the people who's led the charge that this is false is John O'Neill, a main political rival of Kerry's back in the 70's

- these sources say that "all living" commanding officers up the chain of command say they didn't know about this; so that means there are some with whom we can longer check

- the chain of command for CIA operations is by definition not always the same as the normal chain of command; it's not always easy to know exactly who to interview to find out what the CIA was up to

- I haven't seen interviews with Kerry's crewmates, so I can't comment on that part; I do know that the same crew was not always on duty, so some might have made it to Cambodia, and others not

And hell, there's always a chance Kerry made up a (mostly harmless) war story. I think most soldiers have probably done that, just like most fisherman have. It doesn't necessarily make them assholes, or klutzes, or unpatriotic. Frankly, I somewhat think they're entitled to it, as long as no one gets hurt. But I haven't seen anything authoritative enough one way or another to comment. What I do know is that those who originated the charges are HIGHLY POLITICIZED, and I certainly don't trust them to be objective.

MOST IMPORTANTLY, however, let's get back to the issues. A bungled war in Iraq; a troubling fiscal outlook; not enough money being spent on homeland security; etc.

Angry Chinese brings up a g... (Below threshold)

Angry Chinese brings up a good point; I've wondered the same thing myself. There are always secret missions in every war, and it is not impossible that Kerry was on one.

But .... if Kerry was involved in a secret mission, why has he been flapping his jaws about it for 20+ years? Why does everybody in his chain of command deny his story, if keeping it secret doesn't matter any more?

Good post, Paul, I linked to it.

AHEM- Did you people read t... (Below threshold)
Paul:

AHEM- Did you people read the whole post?

I specifically said that it was completely impossible for him to be in Cambodia. Go follow some links.

He was not working with the CIA and he was never in Cambodia. They guys he spent the day with have said that.

Furthermore, Kerry now deni... (Below threshold)
Paul:

Furthermore, Kerry now denies he was in Cambodia.

Proof enough?!?!?!?

When the guy out fishing te... (Below threshold)
Skeeter:

When the guy out fishing tells a tale of the big fish, it really doesn't matter, does it? When the guy who thinks he should be President perpetuates false information about his experiences in Nam (and Cambodia), one cannot help but wonder: Is Kerry's drive for the Presidency based upon the illusion he has created over the past 30+ years? I think it is. Unfit for command indeed! 11b2p all the way!

Kerry, get back to how y... (Below threshold)

Kerry, get back to how you will create jobs and stop the US dependancy of imported oil.

Stop U. S. dependency on oil imported from Canada (our largest source)? Why?

[post deleted. explanation ... (Below threshold)
Raven:

[post deleted. explanation in next comment]

[comment deleted same reaso... (Below threshold)
Raven:

[comment deleted same reason - Link what you claim or give it up. I won't let you lie here.]

[post deleted- Commenter cl... (Below threshold)
Raven:

[post deleted- Commenter claims to have proof but he can not cite a source... When and if he does he will not be deleted. It really is that simple.]

No Raven- I told you I woul... (Below threshold)
Paul:

No Raven- I told you I would delete the comment unless you could back it up. When you failed to do so, I deleted it.

Please give a link for your assertion (October 1968) above or I'll delete that too.

P

BTW I checked all your links and I came up dry. I googled the phrase and all I got was you trying to spread this tale in people's comment sections.

HINT: You can't link yourself as a source.

I don't mind people seeing both side. I just ask you to back up your assertions.

Back up the claim or I delete it. Simple.

If you really want to go cr... (Below threshold)

If you really want to go crazy and find out where Kerry was during most of his time in Vietnam, have a look at this table that my wife compiled. It takes the place names mentioned in the Division 11 command history and gives their lat. and lon. as well as links to maps showing their location w.r.t. Cambodia.

Most of the time, at least, he seems to have been in the South.

Raving's, er I mean Raven's... (Below threshold)
Paul:

Raving's, er I mean Raven's final post was deleted.


SIGH

FROM YOUR OWN FREAKING LINK RAVEN

"Even though it was strictly forbidden by the Rules of Engagement for Swift Boats to operate that far up the rivers, Mike proceeded to follow up on this lead and investigated. ..."

"Mike was called to Saigon to explain his unauthorized conduct and to answer a diplomatic protest by Cambodian Prince Sihanouk that he had fired across the border into that supposed neutral country."

He was never in Cambodia and he had to go to Saigon to answer for what he did do!.

3 strikes, you're out.

Maybe Kerry lied about havi... (Below threshold)
HeIsNotNailedYet:

Maybe Kerry lied about having being in Cambodia. I don't know for I wasn't there.

But the links cited do NOT show that Kerry said "I was never in Cambodia".
And the links do NOT show that Kerry said "in 1968 President Nixon said there were no American troops in Cambodia.".

The people claiming he said these things are wrong. Their distortions are carefully crafted to be close to what Kerry said, but not exactly what was said.

For instance a thorough reading of the congressional record March 27, 1986 clearly shows that John Kerry meant "from 1969 to 1970 the President of the United States was telling the American people that I was not there. But in 1968 I WAS there despite what the president said."

Read the following from the congressional record and see if you don't agree. Pay particular attention to the first paragraph which Swifties prefer you not to see. Also, keep in mind that prior to the 1970 SEALORDS attacks, Nixon often said that troops were not allowed into Cambodia except for in hot pursuit of Viet Cong fighters.

Here are Kerry's words as entered into the congressional record.
-------------------------------------------------------
Finally, President Nixon 1970:
"In cooperation with the armed forces of
South Vietnam, attacks are being launched
this week to clear out major enemy
sanctuaries on the Cambodian-Vietnam
border."

Mr. President, I remember Christmas of 1968
sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember
what is was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and
Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the
President of the United States telling the
American people that I was not there;

I have that memory which is seared-seared-in
me, that says to me, before we send another
generation into harm's way, we have a
responsibility in the U.S. Senate to go the last
step, to make the best effort possible in order to
avoid that kind of conflict.


Congrats HeIsNotNailedYet ... (Below threshold)
Paul:

Congrats HeIsNotNailedYet you get the award for the most hopeless spin in the face of all fact reason or logic.

You are missing the fact that Kerry was never there at all much less Christmas.

Enjoy the Kool-aid.

Please tell me how you can ... (Below threshold)
HeIsNotNailedYet:

Please tell me how you can be so sure?
Four months is a long time. And do you still insist that he thought Nixon was president in 1968? If so wbhy?

Or is it all about opinion and insult, the heck with the facts?

Please tell me how you can ... (Below threshold)
HeIsNotNailedYet:

Please tell me how you can be so sure?
Four months is a long time. And do you still insist that he thought Nixon was president in 1968? If so why?

Or is it all about opinion and insult, the heck with the facts?

The Congressional Record sa... (Below threshold)
HeIsNotNailedYet:

The Congressional Record says "President Nixon 1970".

You must think it really meant "President Nixon 1968".

I suppose you think the congressional record had a typographical error? Or do you think Kerry altered the congressional record so he could become president?

Google shows at least 1500 ... (Below threshold)
HeIsNotNailedYet:

Google shows at least 1500 pages that quote Kerry's "I remember Christmas" paragraph.

Guess how many also quote the preceding paragraph?

For the answer google the following

nixon Christmas "In cooperation with the armed forces" "American people that I was not there"

If you think that the preceeding paragraph was ACCIDENTALLY omitted 1491 times, I'll bet you are the one that's been drinking Kool Aid

Whoa- easy there partner- ... (Below threshold)
Paul:

Whoa- easy there partner- 2 or 3 posts a time-

I'm so sure Kerry was not in Cambodia that day because he now admits he was not... Dude you are defending him AFTER he admitted he lied.

Now if you want to continue to play the part of the class clown and try to make claim the story is true even after Kerry admits it isn't-- then go right ahead.

Face it, it's over- Kerry let you down just like he let down the veterans in Vietnam down.

On August 22, 2004 0... (Below threshold)
HeIsNotNailedYet:


On August 22, 2004 06:44 PM you said
"Kerry was NEVER there at all"

You have flip flopped and now say that
"kerry was not in Cambodia THAT day".

Thanks for correcting the record because I prefer precision in all of my pointless discussions.

Now, do you still say Kerry thought Nixon was president in 1968? Do you think the Congressional Record had a misprint when they listed 1970? (Its been known to happen.)


*sigh* sometime i think peo... (Below threshold)
Paul:

*sigh* sometime i think people try to be moronic.

No he never went there at all. Even his closest allies on his boat say they never went into Cambodia with him.

Grow up.

And I have no idea what you mean about Nixon and the misprint... It does not freaking matter because he told the Boston Globe the same story and used the word Nixon himself.

Give it up- The guy lied. You are the only one that still believes him.

*sigh* sometime i think peo... (Below threshold)
Paul:

*sigh* sometime i think people try to be moronic.

No he never went there at all. Even his closest allies on his boat say they never went into Cambodia with him.

Grow up.

And I have no idea what you mean about Nixon and the misprint... It does not freaking matter because he told the Boston Globe the same story and used the word Nixon himself.

Give it up- The guy lied. You are the only one that still believes him.

*sigh* sometimes I think pe... (Below threshold)
HeIsNotNailedYet:

*sigh* sometimes I think people don't read their own links. http://instapundit.com/images/kerrycambfull.jpg

Right hand column (thats the hand that use when you shake hands with people *grin*)

7 lines down.

Do you think 1970 is a misprint? I honestly want to know.

By the way, you should smile more. If you're not having fun you shouldn't be in this business.

Either Kerry didn't know wh... (Below threshold)
Nathan:

Either Kerry didn't know who the President was in 1968, or he's banking on his Demo-sheep not knowing, thus allowing him to slander Nixon (cue sinister music) and play the victim to a Republican's (especially THAT Republican's) evil mechanations. I'm betting on the latter.

In an Oct. 14, 1979, letter to the editor of the Boston Herald, Kerry wrote:

"I remember spending Christmas Eve of 1968 five miles across the Cambodian border being shot at by our South Vietnamese allies who were drunk and celebrating Christmas. The absurdity of almost killed by our own allies in a country in which President Nixon claimed there were no American troops was very real. "

This is clearly a deliberate attempt to mislead the uninformed public and score political points amongst hardcore Democrats by putting Kerry in direct opposition (and the all-important "victimhood") to the most-hated Republican of the day.

I don't suppose I'll ever g... (Below threshold)
HeIsNotNailedYet:

I don't suppose I'll ever get you guys to admit the Congressional Records 1986 quote was taken out of context. Can somebody at least say something simple like.

"Yes, I re-read the CR 1986 Christmas in Cambodia quote,
I saw the 'President Nixon 1970 paragraph' and
not only don't I know if 1970 was a misprint,
I actually have no idea what the hell Kerry was talking about!"

But, noooo! (to quote John Belushi) none of you would admit you don't entirely understand what you quote so glibly. Instead, you send me on another link quest. Oh well, tomorrow I'll check the Boston Herald Microfilms and use them to shoot down another out of context quote.

To show you guys how easy it is to create out of context quotes, please see my posting of
August 23, 2004 09:37 AM. Notice that I quoted Paul's own words EXACTLY. Yet somehow it wasn't what he said at all! Are you beginning to understand? Stay tuned for real context from the Boston Herald and further discussions on the "white magic and black magic in the art of paraphrasing".


No luck at local library, s... (Below threshold)
HeIsNotNailedYet:

No luck at local library, so my search for the FULL text of Boston Herald Oct 14, 1979 letter continues Anybody have a link?

I'm told that the Christmas in Cambodia paragraph is also cited in Chapter 3 of "Unfit for Command".
Is O'Neil quoting the CR 1986 source, the Boston Herald 1979 source, or does he have a third source that I am going to have to research?

Hey! I'll bet you a very precious item, that O'Neil didn't cite the President Nixon 1970 context. If I lose, I promise to vote for BUSH. If I win, I only ask for one of you guys to acknowledge that you have seen the President Nixon 1970 CR 1986 paragraph.

As a sign of good faith, I'll answer one of my own questions, for I have found that the ConRecs 1986 President Nixon 1970 reference is NOT a misprint.

Kerry was quoting Nixon's April 30 1970 speech to the nation announcing an invasion of Cambodia. (See http://vietnam.vassar.edu/doc15.html).

Of particular interest is the fifth paragraph "American policy since then [1954] has been to scrupulously respect the neutrality of the Cambodian people".

My memory is seared (well maybe just sautéed) with the derisive laughter that filled the campus when Nixon spoke those lines (and this was a conservative engineering school!). It was "common knowledge" that the U.S. had been secretly crossing the border with impunity for a long time before that April night.

Of course, I'm wiser now and realize how often common knowledge is totally wrong, especially when we only listen to people that agree with us. Does anybody here agree with that?

I thinking your splitting h... (Below threshold)
lanparty:

I thinking your splitting hairs across ten years of time. The congressional record from John Kerry's testimony in 1970 does not address Richard Nixon.

Susequently, in the 1979 interview, Kerry uses very similar wording, but than he evokes Nixons denials of US troops in Vietnam during Nixon's years as president. Now I'll agree, that Kerry should have took just as much scorn with Johnson aas with Nixon for sending troops into Cambodia and then subsequently denying it.

As for "working for the CIA". John Kerry never claimed he worked for the CIA. He claimed he gave a CIA agent a ride. Thats like saying an airline pilot works for Microsoft because he flew Bill Gates back to Seattle.

Would enlisted personnell know about a classified operation ... NO. Would personell on the boat besides the skipper and navigator necessarily know where they were at all times???? .... NO.

Would ALL of the individuals who served under Kerry's command have accompanied him on that particular day??? ... NO. Crew rotates in and out depending on injuries and completion of their tour.

Can we confirm that Kerry was in Cambodia???? NO. By it's nature, it's almost impossible to verify. But John O'Neill certainly doesn't know, because he followed Kerry into Vietnam.

As for John O'Neil himself, he's been caught red-handed. He has claimed that no one in his command would be ordered into Cambodia. But one of Nixon's tape caught him in an interview with Nixon saying he HE WAS IN CAMBODIA.

He subsequently says that he was 1000ft from Cambodia. And somehow the movement of time and space espaces people that you can be in two different places at TWO DIFFERENT TIMES.

Hence, John Kerry Could have been IN Cambodia. He could have been 60 miles from the Cambodian border. He could have been an hour away from Cambodia. And ALL of this could have happened in the span of a single day.

John Kerry could also have criticized President Nixon in 1979 for denying the presence of troops in Cambodia PERIOD without having to confine his criticism to Nixon's actions in 1968 when he was president-elect (though I agree, he should have taken a swipe at Johnson as well).


This is the SAME deal with the criticisms on ex Texas Lt Governor Ben Barnes who was NOT Lt Gov at the time he claims he pulled strings for GW Bush. See the magic. But they fail to mention that Ben Barnes was Speaker of the House of Texas at the time he claims he pulled strings for Bush.

Same obfuscation, different topic. Intentionally confuse peoples titles at different times and redirect the argument from the subject matter.

Look at it another way ... (Below threshold)
lanparty:

Look at it another way

"I remember spending Christmas Eve of 1968 five miles across the Cambodian border being shot at by our South Vietnamese allies who were drunk and celebrating Christmas. The absurdity of almost killed by our own allies in a country in which President Nixon claimed there were no American troops was very real. "

What if it read like this:

"I remember spending Christmas Eve of 1968 five miles across the Cambodian border being shot at by our South Vietnamese allies who were drunk and celebrating Christmas. The absurdity of being involved in an operation that Pope John Paul V called a debasement of humanity was very real."


OK, we have the same situation here. In 1968 John Paul V was not the Pontiff. But in between 1968 and 1979 he BECAME pontiff. But when did he make the comment???? Is it necessary for the comment to be made at the time???? Not really, it's merely an allusion meant to conjure up an emotion.

Had kerry used the phrase" ... [b]then[/b] President Nixon claimed there were no American troops was very real. " Then Kerry would have transported the allusion into the past tense. And then he would be at fault.

Was this spin???? You bet your ass it was. And I'm not sure that I approve. But Nixon happily continued the secret war in Cambodia that Johnson started. So I'm only concerned about him leaving Johnson (a Democrat) out of it.

As far as Kerry being in Vietnam, is that like Bush being at his station in Alabama. Some would say yes because there is no way to prove someone WASN'T there. But there is a certain expectation that some actions will leave a trace. In Bush's case, he should have been paid and he should have some papers on record of him reporting to base. He should have some buddies in his unit who will testify to his presence.

John Kerry's presence in Cambodia at the time would only generate paperwork stamped TOP SECRET if any at all. According to Kerry's account, his only job was to transport a CIA operative into Cambodia. And I daresay that since Kerry did this BEFORE Apocolypse Now was made, that it is probably the Kerry that may have sparked a comparison between "Heart of Darkness" and a US operations on Vietnamese waterways.

lanparty: you make too much... (Below threshold)
HeIsNotNailedYet:

lanparty: you make too much sense, you must be a fellow engineer! (Or else just a logical thinker.)

Your Pope John Paul V comment is dead on.

Kerry's 1986 congressional record specifically mentioned "President Nixon in 1970" and quotes directy from Nixon's April 1970 invasion of Camboida speech. I have still not heard any Bush defender explain how they interpret all these 1970 references to prove that "Kerry thought Nixon was president in 1968."

The closest the Bushies come to defending it is to say "Kerry said the same thing in 1979". I have ordered the full copy of the Boston Herald 1979 letter, but interlibrary loans to my town to Boston Public Library take 3 to 6 weeks. It will be old new when I finally get it, but I will post the results here.




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