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Haileygate - USU Fires Back

In regards to our coverage of the Hailey study, here is what Utah State University is saying (From The Deseret News):

Critics who have posted comments on Internet "blog" sites - the arena where doubt was first cast about the documents CBS obtained - are calling Hailey a "fraud," alleging his findings are politically motivated and that other USU officials may have somehow guided his study.

Now that Hailey and the school are under fire for the research, the plan is to respond aggressively through the media, according to John DeVilbiss, USU director of public relations and marketing.

"We want to make it right for both the professor and the university," DeVilbiss said. He called critics of Hailey "mean-spirited," adding that in the end the controversy will reflect "positively" on the institution. "It is not a political issue, it is an academic one."

Without a request for an interview, USU President Kermit Hall called the Desert Morning News with his own take on the situation.

"Whoever it is," Hall said of the e-mails, "is clearly trying to intimidate the university and trying to intimidate Professor Hailey."

Hall called Hailey's research "legitimate" and said the professor has every right to engage in and publicize the research.

"There's been an effort to suggest that the administration put him up to this - the answer to that is, 'wrong,'" Hall added. "There's a suggestion that the purpose of his work is to join some kind of political action - that's wrong."

Hall called the blogging and e-mails the "worst kind of smear" against academic research and the opportunity for academics to share their research within academe and with the "wider" public.

For the record, I was not contacted by the Deseret News for this article.

Our response is forthcoming, but I'm glad to note the support of Dr. Joseph Newcomer, whose detailed findings on the CBS memos are still the gold standard of academic research on the subject. I spoke with Dr. Newcomer at length today and he has nothing but high praise for the work done here at Wizbang (and elsewhere) on the Hailey report. As a peer of Dr. Hailey's, he is amazed at the shoddiness of the work and has serious issues with the methods employed and conclusions reached. Expect additional criticism of Dr. Hailey and USU from Dr. Newcomer in the coming days.

PS - I realize comparing Hailey and Newcomer as peers does Dr. Newcomer a great disservice...


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Comments (72)

There is another article on... (Below threshold)

There is another article on this situation at www.hjnews.com...fourth item down.

This is the problem with li... (Below threshold)
JFH:

This is the problem with liberal arts scholarship. How does a guy with a PhD put out such shoddy, probably dishonest, work?

I tell you why, he's field can create their own reality, where nothing can be proved or disproved with any degree of certainty.

Hailey is trying to prove that the sun "could" be revolving around the earth by watching the sun rise and set and ignoring the moon and the stars.

I'm with JFH 100%. Fucking ... (Below threshold)
Bud Tugley:

I'm with JFH 100%. Fucking arrogant academic pricks. They were never able to cut it in the real world, so they spend their lives criticizing those who can. Tenure is a very evil thing.

Wow, a university and profe... (Below threshold)
Jim:

Wow, a university and professor being less than candid. I'm shocked! I gotta lay down!

It is indeed a major proble... (Below threshold)

It is indeed a major problem with liberal arts scholarship. (I have an M.A. in English myself, which I got very recently, so I observed... and maybe even practiced... some of it myself.)

Where in most disciplines, Occam's Razor is right there on top of the tools in the box, in some of the humanities it's buried so far down not many even think it has any use. The aim of most criticism of literature these days is to show how the words don't mean what they denote.

There's something about his argumentation in this "paper" that reminds me of Kerry discussing multilateralism and outsourcing in the Thursday debate too.

Great work on deconstructing his text.

Kevin:Keep the fai... (Below threshold)
Katherine Lambert:

Kevin:

Keep the faith, you've got them on the run.
Change of Subject.
The New York Times is shilling that Kerry is in perfect health except for war shrapnel. I think we should get a new nickname and motto for the NYTimes

From the Old Gray Lady to To Old Gray Shady or Old Gray Queen in light of the 75% Gay Editorial Board

All the News Fit to Print - All The News Fit to Invent.

Anyways - happy Saturday

The very first attempt at d... (Below threshold)
bullwinkle:

The very first attempt at discrediting a conservative is to call whatever he's said or done as "mean spirited". It doesn't matter that the original attempt to pass these forgeries off was an overt attempt to hijack a presidential election and based strictly on hatred. All the subsequent attempts to lend any credibility are operating from and supporting the very same hatred. If lying to further a cause based on hatred, then lying even more to support that cause is not "mean spirited" then what is? If your viewpoint needs dishonesty to legitimize itself then your viewpoint is dishonest and illegitimate.

"It's not a political issue... (Below threshold)
MD:

"It's not a political issue, it's an academic one."

The invocation of "academic," to university types, is blanket inoculation from any meaningful criticism (except in the sciences, where rationality still reigns).

This also implies the absurd notion that university english departments (Hailey is a English prof) aren't political. They are intensely political, and one is judged by ideology (based primarily on the Holy Trinity of race, gender, and class). I wonder if a professed conservative holds a tenured position in that particular English department, or any other humanities department for that matter.

Academics are first and foremost political; the waving of the "academic" flag is comical.

In any case, Wizbang's criticism's were not political; they were based on the emprirical evidence and common knowledge about the CBS documents.

The Universtity should address the merits, and stop throwing marshmellows around.

I exempt all the hard sciences from the above comments.

"Whoever it is," Hall said ... (Below threshold)
tony:

"Whoever it is," Hall said of the e-mails, "is clearly trying to intimidate the university and trying to intimidate Professor Hailey."

You big bullies!!

And wouldn't the "worst kind of smear" to a university be a dishonest professor doing half-assed research work?

Hailey's qualifications?</p... (Below threshold)
robusto:

Hailey's qualifications?

His CV lists a PhD in Technical Communication and Critical Theory from U. New Mexico; do they even HAVE such a department there?

Given the squishy title of his thesis (The Objective Metaphors: An Examination of Objects as Metaphors and Metaphors as Objects) I'd love to look at it, but can't find it on ProQuest (UMI.com dissertation abstracts).

I assume it exists (cough cough). Has anyone else it?

I don't understand why the ... (Below threshold)
mcg:

I don't understand why the university intends to be so aggresive about this. It's quite obvious that Hailey's work is wrong. And frankly, as popular as Wizbangblog is, its audience is still relatively small, and the Haileygate story still relatively unknown, compared to if it had broken on, oh, CBS SIXTY MINUTES II.

I have to think it would be in the university's best interest to avoid elevating this to another level. Should they respond? Sure. Forcefully, if the feel like it? Sure. But I think it should be in their best interest to let it continue in the blog channel for now, not the mainstream media. Because, frankly, Hailey's work on this was truly horrible, and the last they want to do is embarrass him and the university by casting brighter light upon it.

Yo, Kevin! The Utah paper ... (Below threshold)
Philly Dog:

Yo, Kevin! The Utah paper is named the Deseret News, NOT the Desert News. There's an extra "e" in the name, for reasons that are obscured by history.

robusto, let's not go down ... (Below threshold)
mcg:

robusto, let's not go down the road of forged qualifications, departments that don't exist, and what not. I think it is safe to assume that the university vetted his qualifications when he was hired.

Oh, by the way, its Deseret News, not Desert News.

A small nit -- it is "Deser... (Below threshold)
Voiceguy:

A small nit -- it is "Deseret News" (with the third 'e') not "Desert News."

I disagree that Newcomer is a 'peer' of Hailey. Newcomer's qualifications are vastly superior. Hailey's work is not only sloppy, but many of his statements are incomprehensible gobbledegook. And as far as the visual "evidence" goes, I see quite a number of differences.

The LGF/Charles Johnson overlay is deadly. The fact that it could be produced with default settings is dispositive, in my book. Hailey's work, which obviously requires extensive hand-nurturing AND still does not produce a direct LGF-like overlay, is inconsequential and unworthy of serious attention.

With people like Newcomer along with experts from Adobe saying that the CBS memos are unquestionably the product of modern word processing, the only credible challenge would be for someone to come forward WITH AN ACTUAL TYPEWRITER, roll a piece of paper into it, and produce ALL FOUR MEMOS in a form that overlays with the CBS memos as closely as the LGF overlay. Hint: It can't be done. No one could manually achieve the centering of the headings -- and no one has yet come forward with a comparable superscript 'th' exemplar from any typewriter ever manufactured.

"Deseret" is a word from th... (Below threshold)
AST:

"Deseret" is a word from the Book of Mormon which refers to the honey bee. When the Mormons first settled in what became Utah, Brigham Young called it the kingdom of Deseret to encourage the people to be as industrious as bees. That's why Utah's state flag and seal feature a beehive, and its motto is "Industry."

The Deseret Morning News is owned by the LDS church. The other daily paper in Utah is the Salt Lake Tribune which was founded by anti-Mormons. This history is probably why Salt Lake City still has two daily papers, when most cities its size have been reduced to one. The church keeps ownership of the DesNews mostly so that it can tell its own side on issues when it gets attacked. Otherwise, it's pretty moderately conservative, and I'm not even sure the editors are LDS.

"trying to intimidate Profe... (Below threshold)

"trying to intimidate Professor Hailey"

I have not attempted to contact the university or Hailey.

I sincerely hope all researchers are "intimdated" out of publishing shoddy and/or dishonest work.

I sincerely hope the University has enough integrity to let Hailey suffer the results of his own failings.

"It is not a political i... (Below threshold)

"It is not a political issue, it is an academic one."
Damn straight. Your ivory tower just started to teeter.

Of great interest would be ... (Below threshold)
MrGrumpyDrawers:

Of great interest would be to discover if the worthy Prof Hailey undertook this 'research' on his own nickle (meaning that his 'research' took place during his own personal time - after normal teaching and office hours, using his own hardware and software {we know that the intermediate stages and results of his 'research' were parked on the University's servers}). Or did he undertake this 'research' as contract work for, say, Mapes? I presume there are some rules regarding contract work using university (i.e. state-owned) equipment, including rules whether some sort of reimbursement on the part of the 'researcher' to the University is expected or mandatory.
Although I have spent many years creating documents in FrameMaker and supporting graphics in PhotoShop, I have never undertaken to create a purported text document letter by letter in ransom-note fashion using PhotoShop, so I can't estimate the investment in time that such 'research' would take. With all the smudging, fudging, budging and nudging of characters, it must have been considerable. Anyone care to hazard a guess? If USU is like most campuses, classes started about Sept. 1. I suspect this 'research' started immediately after RatherGate unfolded, which means lots of scrambling about during the last couple of weeks. Suppose any of Dr. H's students were dragooned into this? Or that a regularly scheduled class here and there was suspended to make time for the 'research'?
Finally, if there are pecuniary aspects to this shoddy saga or if some students have been cheated out of scheduled class time, I can imagine that one of the local politicos in Democratic hotbed Utah, or maybe one of the local media outlets, would be interested in asking pertinent questions about professorial ethics.

Let me tell you. If Kevin h... (Below threshold)
Some Guy:

Let me tell you. If Kevin has Dr. Newcomer on his side, the staff at USU are going to humbled beyond their wildest imaginations. I noticed the University called it a "smear tactic" right away. I wonder if they had time to read it.

Reading the thing is like reading those "opinion papers" we had to write in 8th grade. He simply declares things to be true that are fantasy.

He claims he knows the font but won't tell us.

If I were the head of the University, I'd read Dr. Newcomer's site, then I'd read Hailey's. Then I'd call Dr. Newcomer and discuss it.

Then I'd ask Hailey to remove his work and post an apology. That's IF I didn't fire him for embarrassing the hell out me.

I think it is safe to as... (Below threshold)

I think it is safe to assume that the university vetted his qualifications when he was hired.

That's not really that a safe assumption. I'm not saying THIS guy is a fake, but that it's happened often enough that it's a possibility.

Still, as Dan S invoked Occam's Razor, it's safer to assume the guy has a valid, if worthless, set of degrees.

Obviously, there is another... (Below threshold)

Obviously, there is another war being fought out there besides the War on Terror. It's the public vs the MSM and their enablers.

The dishonesty has to stop and until people like Rather are fired, it will continue. They are going along like nothing happened. We have to keep the pressure on these frauds.

whatsa matta u... doesnt an... (Below threshold)
e m butler:

whatsa matta u... doesnt anyone ever compare the headings on both memos...they are identical down to the flaws in the 3's(300x).... they are either copies or typeset as in headings at a printer.. and then run off in a 1000(ie) page run

What's wrong guys, you have... (Below threshold)

What's wrong guys, you haven't talked about the debate at all. Kerry crushed Bush. Now the polls will says so also. Newswek is first:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6159637/site/newsweek/

In the first national telephone poll using a fresh sample, NEWSWEEK found the race now statistically tied among all registered voters, 47 percent of whom say they would vote for Kerry and 45 percent for George W. Bush in a three-way race.

Removing Independent candidate Ralph Nader, who draws 2 percent of the vote, widens the Kerry-Edwards lead to three points with 49 percent of the vote versus the incumbent’s 46 percent. Four weeks ago the Republican ticket, coming out of a successful convention in New York, enjoyed an 11-point lead over Kerry-Edwards with Bush pulling 52 percent of the vote and the challenger just 41 percent.

OUCH

"Technical Communication an... (Below threshold)
MD:

"Technical Communication and Critical Theory" Ph.d.

This is a fancy name for an english prof these days. "Critical theory" is a postmodern neologism for their verbose meanderings; rest assured, it's neither "critical," nor is it "theory," as those terms are understood in the real world.

If you know the vocabulary of "hegemonic, patriarchal, imperialist, oppressive, logocentric, racist, rational, etc", you too can be a "critical theorist," and begin your personal crusade against the Enlightenment. It's little wonder that, with such training, Hailey doesn't understand such things as evidence, constructing a rational argument, or full disclosure of methodology.

As an academic, I felt I ne... (Below threshold)
AJ:

As an academic, I felt I need to point this out:

NOT ALL ACADEMICS ARE LIKE MR. HAILEY OR THE USU.

Many of us are often held to strict, strict standards. Especially when not just opining, but putting out a piece of work that has been researched.

Even if a purely academic endeavor that Mr. Hailey intended to do, this does not stand up academically. Aside from Dr. Newcomer, I would like to see any English professor give an opinion on Hailey's writing. When not writing for creative purposes, meaning, when one is writing for research and to provide information, it is NOT appropriate to use dodgy and subversive language.

Could you imagine if a lawyer wrote a divorce paper that completely circumvented any point he was trying to make? If this is academic research, not creative, then Mr. Hailey KNOWS he should have been clear and concise. A research paper is not the place to argue "Well, by typewriter and typed on a machine I meant my computer." Surely SOMEWHERE along the path to his Creative Writing and Fine Arts degree, he mus have taken at least ONE research and writing class.

(BTW, the Utahns at my school, of which there are quite a few, acknowledge that the Univ of S. Utah isn't exactly a pillar of academic pride and prestige, even in Utah.)

I take it the university is... (Below threshold)
mshyde:

I take it the university is telling bloggers they have no right to critize Hailey's work. In doing so is a smear campaign. Does this mean anything he purports is not to be challenged by anyone? The university needs to get a grip and get over it.
If Hailey is stupid enough to post something that shoddy and not expect to be taken to task for it, he truely lives in Lala land.
Just like the stink over Rathergate, and now the other coiffured hot house lilies are backing him up, they can expect the same kind of critical monitoring. Hailey freely volunteered to join this questionable club, so now he has to pay the same dues.
They are certainly of the same ilk and odor.

And I agree with whomever m... (Below threshold)
AJ:

And I agree with whomever mentioned it above, I touched on the credentials that USU is percieved to have even to Utahns.

Not to insult a degree from a community college in ANY manner at all, but when you look at Mr. Hailey's background, and look at Dr. Newcomber's... it's not even a comparison. Further, to call Dr. Newcomer a "peer" of Mr. Hailey is stretching the word to its limitations.

I encourage Mr. Hailey and the USU to take a look at Dr. Newcomer's creditials, they will most definitely be humbled.

I have to go poopy. hahahah... (Below threshold)

I have to go poopy. hahahahahaha. Pthbbbbbbbb!! I got it all over my bottom. Does anyone have a spare roll of toilet paper? I have to go pee-pee. Pssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss. hahahahahaha. poo-poo and pee-pee, poo-poo and pee-pee. Yaaay!! hahahahahahahaha. Diareeah! haha!

Hey, Kevin, aren't you supp... (Below threshold)
wowbagger:

Hey, Kevin, aren't you supposed to be some kinda knuckle dragger in a pair of pajamas? How dare you bring credentials and reason into this. When your betters (the elites of academia and the wise-folk of the media) attack you with cries of "smear tactics" and accusations of being "mean-spirited" and the like, don't you know you're supposed to bow down to their greatness and humbly beg their forgiveness!? But nooooooo, you respond with further thoughtful analysis and firm conviction - what are you, some kinda troublemaker or something?

Excellent work. Keep up the good fight, the voice of the unwashed masses gets louder every day.

-W

(BTW, the Utahns at my s... (Below threshold)
Anachronda:

(BTW, the Utahns at my school, of which there are quite a few, acknowledge that the Univ of S. Utah isn't exactly a pillar of academic pride and prestige, even in Utah.)

AJ, you're confusing USU with SUU.

Utah State University, the one in Logan, Utah, has several excellent departments. The EE department, for example, has a highly active and renowned space sciences arm. Remember that space tether experiment that flew on the shuttle a few years ago? That was USU (rumor has it the failure was NASA's fault; they insisted that a bolt be added in a location that caused the tether to be jammed).

Southern Utah University in Cedar City was, until recently, Souther Utah State College, a two-year institution. They, along with other state colleges, branched out to include some four-year programs and petitioned the state board of regents for the right to call themselves a University. AFAIK, they are most famous for the annual Shakespeare festival. And their team won the Robot Rivals competition last time 'round, despite the penchant of the Robot Rivals TV crew for displaying the University of Utah logo (UofU is the one in Salt Lake City) instead of the SUU logo (whatever that is).

Dr. Hailey works for USU, the one in Logan with an excellent engineering department.

(full disclosure: I graduated from USU in '86 with a BA in Philosophy after having been tossed out of both EE and CS. I never encountered Dr. Hailey and had few dealings with the English department)

USU's first reaction is to ... (Below threshold)
John S:

USU's first reaction is to protect academic freedom, which is understandable if Hailey has been receiving mean-spirited emails.

But academic institutions have their own standards, don't they? As an academic who is asserting academic freedom, doesn't Hailey have an obligation to publish his results in a way that can be verified or disproven? That's what Dr. Newcomer has done.

For example, a biology professor at USU who publishes a paper will explain her experiment so that any other scholar in the field can confirm or refute the findings. It's not accepted as scholarship until others repeat the experiment and verify it.

At a minimum, Hailey should immediately indentify precisely where he obtained each letter in his comparison document, so that, for example, Dr. Newcomer can test the conflusions in Hailey's work. He should also explain how he substituted the superscript "th" -- especially given that character's starring role in all the analyses done to date. He should also explain why he used the "th" he used. There are lots of other letters and numbers that sure don't look like they came from the font Hailey identified. As a scholar, he should identify the source.

I am sure that the scholars and administration will agree with this request, right? Or is it their position that it still counts as scholarship when the methods are concealed and no one can attempt to verify the scholar's procedure? Does it count as "sholarship" at USU when the methodology is so carefully hidden away?

Remember, this is the state... (Below threshold)
Dave:

Remember, this is the state who's other university research triumph was "cold fusion."

Garbage scholarship then, garbage scholarship now.

Yes, I know cold fusion came from the University of Utah...

CONGRATS ... Blogers are no... (Below threshold)
J Anderson:

CONGRATS ... Blogers are now a JIHAD !!

"Brokaw blasted what he called an attempt to "demonize" CBS and Rather on the Internet, where complaints about the report first surfaced. He said the criticism "goes well beyond any factual information."

"What I think is highly inappropriate is what going on across the Internet, a kind of political jihad ... that is quite outrageous," the NBC anchor said at a panel on which all three men spoke."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20041003/ap_on_en_tv/rather_anchors

When criticising someone, i... (Below threshold)
Phil T:

When criticising someone, it is important to think about your own objectives. Are you simply infuriated and blowing off steam? Or are you genuinely trying to make the other person see the error of his ways? Some (but not all) of the communications I have seen thrown towards Hailey and his school fall into the blowing off steam category - when you let yourself do this, don't expect any sort of rational communications back, nor expect the receiving person to re-examine his own work.

While I agree 110% with this and other site's conclusions wrt Hailey's "work", they let a golden opportunity to really crush him go by injecting some vitriol into their communications. This allowed the university to hide behind their "smear" defense and gave them an excuse to ignore the substance of the charge.

Dave, don't be so quick to ... (Below threshold)
mimikintoe:

Dave, don't be so quick to discredit Pons & Fleishmann (the "cold fusion" guys from the University of Utah). Folks who've pursued the research (despite being ridiculed by those in big science) have made progress toward understanding what's going on in the experiment. And, if IEEE Spectrum is to be believed, cold fusion research at SPAWAR in San Diego may even get some funding...

Check google news for more info.

Yeah, Brokow has confirmed ... (Below threshold)
Phil T:

Yeah, Brokow has confirmed his cluelessness. I liked this site's concept of called bloggers "Peer reviewed journalism". Actually, it much, much better than what "peer review" normally means (closed, many months of review, slow, not challengable). The only good news is that people are catching on - now if bloggers, sorry, peer reviewed journalists, could only figure out how to pay the bills, they would finally kill off network news.

YES - the barriers/doors to... (Below threshold)
J Anderson:

YES - the barriers/doors to the MSM country club are finally being broken down. Now NBC is worried. Keep up the good work people. Let the truth be told for the first time in decades. As the WHO said "We won't be fooled again".

This stuff is making me diz... (Below threshold)
firstbrokenangel:

This stuff is making me dizzy....

~C

Found this on Burkett's sit... (Below threshold)
J Anderson:

Found this on Burkett's site tonight...another forgery I guess...but it's funny!!

by MaryMapes at 09:01PM (CDT) on Oct 2, 2004 | Permanent Link
Bill,

We need to talk. Dan and I have run out of ideas. I tried paying Professor Hailey to falsely authenticate the memos, but he got busted by one of those pesky blogger sites.

Dan and I are extremely worried as John did win the debate the other night based on debating techniques, however, his statements were contradictory and didn't make a lot of sense.

Joe L. at the DNC suggest that we all take a trip to Mexico and find any woman named Luck Ramirez and pay her $50,000 to take the fall for forging the memos. I agree. This is probably our only option.

Bill, we paid you a lot of money for the memos and you have an obligation to help us. Please, Dan and I could be out of a job over this. We need you help desperately, if not for us, for the sake of John. These bloggers have become a pain in the ass and we need to stop them from exposing the truth even further.

We have less than a month left and we need to do something now. Please call me on my cell phone. You have the number. We will pay whatever it takes to make this go away.

Sincerely,
Mary

'Critical theory' is the mo... (Below threshold)
David Gillies:

'Critical theory' is the modish new discipline that views the world as full of nails because all it has is a Marxist hammer. It's faux scholarship of the sort described by Bricmont and Sokal, or Gross and Levitt. Hailey's qualifications, such as they are, no more render him fit to perform document analysis than my qualifications in Physics and Electronic Engineering allow me to offer useful commentary on, say, Mediaeval History.

My college degree in basket... (Below threshold)
Greg:

My college degree in basket weeving qualifies me more than Hailey. He couldn't tell the difference between a "real" memo and a $3 dollar bill with Kerry's face on it. Sorry Professor, even Ginger and MaryAnn know you are full of it. If you want to be taken seriously, don't make payoffs (donations) to the left.

Hailey put his work out in ... (Below threshold)
SarahW:

Hailey put his work out in the public domain. If he wanted his work discussed only by other researchers, he had every opportunity of holding it back until it had been peer-reviewed.
.


J Anderson - that's too fun... (Below threshold)
Larry:

J Anderson - that's too funny - I looked at Burkett's site and there it was. I don't know who posted it, but I'm sure it will be gone in the morning. Thanks for the update tho.

USU should tread cautiously... (Below threshold)
John Anderson:

USU should tread cautiously: I hope they don't attempt an Emory-style (Bellesisles) whitewash (empower the investigating commitee to only look at the undisuted parts of the work), which backfired when the members said they couldn't too badly fault the parts they investigated but snuck in references to the near-total unacceptibility of the rest.

I received my MS from USU (... (Below threshold)

I received my MS from USU (sociology, an almost equally worthless subject matter). USU's College of Education is quite good (when I was there, it was ranked in the top 10), but that's neither here nor there with Hailey. What matter's here is Hailey's methodology, and it just stinks. This would never get published in a professional journal, and it was a big mistake for the school's rep to defend him when he hadn't even read the article. Dr. Hailey's reputation stands on his work, and right now that reputation is rightly in tatters because he was either horribly sloppy in writing this thing, or he was downright deceptive. In either case, he looks bad. USU would have been better off denying any participation in his work and that they would let the marketplace of ideas evaluate it. End of story, and they don't come off as condescending or partisan.
As far as the Deseret News is concerned, e-mail them with your side of the story. I'm all for holding our public institutions accountable for our tax dollars. I've done the same. And you can bet that USU won't be getting any Alumni donations from me any time soon.

Mean spirited? C'mon now gi... (Below threshold)
Fred Z:

Mean spirited? C'mon now girlie men, you can trot out more lefty buzz words and phrases than that.

I open the bidding with 'scary', as in 'This savage attack on academic freedom by the blogosphere is very scary'.

McCarthyism?

Unconstitutional?

Girlie men, we need some help here.

Big Media liberals and U... (Below threshold)
kjo:

Big Media liberals and University types have been living off Joe McCarthy for 50 years. Yet, who is it that forces a kind of universial thought control on most college campuses? It isn't the Right. We mostly, actually believe in thinking things through, expressing our ideas in a way so others can see our processes and attempt to defend them in an honorable and open way.

The truth is that Big Media/University Liberalism has become corrupt, not because the people who inhabit this world are bad, they simply don't have anybody around who believes differently. It's a huge intellectual, echo chamber.

AST:The Deseret Ne... (Below threshold)

AST:

The Deseret News isn't really that conservative, either. As a subscriber, I can attest to that. For example, they support most gun control laws (like the recently deceased AW ban), but they're always quick to add that they support the Second Amendment.

Kind of like the Democrats.

Kerry/Edwards04:Co... (Below threshold)

Kerry/Edwards04:

Considering that CBS wasn't above using forged documents to smear George Bush, I wouldn't be surprised if Newsweek rigged a poll to show Kerry ahead of Bush.

The MSM have precious little credibility, and they seem hell-bent on squandering what is left in order to elect John Kerry.

Dave:Don't judge U... (Below threshold)

Dave:

Don't judge Utahns by the educated socialist carpetbaggers that infest our universities. Utah is a beautiful state, with conservative, hard-working, patriot people.

It's not our fault that every leftist weenie PhD in California or on the east coast wants to come here to teach.

Come to think of it, is any state willing to take Robert Redford? We're sick of him.

Final comment:To s... (Below threshold)

Final comment:

To show you just how clueless the USU adminstration is about this issue, when the fit hit the shan their first response was to run to their allies in the Dead Tree Media.

That's like bringing nail clippers to a gunfight.

Hey Kevin and Paul, do you ... (Below threshold)

Hey Kevin and Paul, do you guys need a lawyer? I can recommend a few good ones who handle defamation cases, but they don't work cheap. You do have a lot of money to defend a libel case, right?

Hey Mithras, can the bullsh... (Below threshold)
julie:

Hey Mithras, can the bullshit. Truth is an absolute defense in a defamation case. Additionally, if sued, Kevin and Paul could cross complaint both Hailey and the deep pockets USU. Now, hurry back to moonbat land where you belong.

Yeah, but you guys don't ha... (Below threshold)
mark_y1:

Yeah, but you guys don't have truth on your side. Cease and desist is the first out otherwise it can get expensive.

Julie, Mithras might be glo... (Below threshold)

Julie, Mithras might be gloating -- prematurely -- but it's still a good question, and I hope Kevin and Paul are preparing for that possibility.

I think that USU would be ill-advised to let such a proceeding go forward... but as doctors all know, the cost of a *successful* defense is still substantial. You can "win"... and still lose.

If and When Dr. Hailey files, I would hope that some of our blogging lawyers would consider taking the case... AND I would hope that if funds became an issue, we'd all hit the tip jars, and keep hitting them.

Oh, and that we'd all blog *hard* on the attempts of Dr. Hailey to hide what he did behind the cloud of a libel suit.

This could be a "make or break" case; IF Hailey is successful in silencing this site, by threat or by judgment, then others who have been exposed by bloggers will follow suit.

I will be watching this with GREAT interest.

DeDoc: Mithras was not aski... (Below threshold)
julie:

DeDoc: Mithras was not asking a question but making a statement with the intent to intimidate. If he wants to ask a question, I suggest he direct it at USU and Hailey, because in the long run it is going to cost them the most money. Let them worry about it.

mark y1: You want truth? I'... (Below threshold)
julie:

mark y1: You want truth? I'll give you truth: Hailey's research is a bunch of crap. So, sue me.

Hmm...lawyers who would be ... (Below threshold)

Hmm...lawyers who would be willing to defend bloggers, perhaps at reduced rate or even pro bono...

I don't know, but between Powerline, Volokh Conspiracy, Instapundit, Bainbridge, and Pavel there's a dozen top-notch legal guns right there. John Hinderaker (Powerline) even specializes in First Amendment litigation.

And should any blogger find themselves in that situation, all they need do is set up the tip jar, as previously mentioned.

And I agree with Julie - my read of the previous comments is that they were veiled threats, not friendly advice.

the previous comments is... (Below threshold)

the previous comments is that they were veiled threats, not friendly advice.

Since I am neither Professor Haily nor employed by the university, I can't make threats. However, I can give you some unfriendly, but very heart-felt advice: just because it's the internet doesn't mean the law does not apply to you.

In the past, other bloggers have learned that threats communicated electronically violate federal criminal law. And by now the operators of this site have probably learned that maliciously false statements that injure another person can be actionable as libel. Attacks on a person's professional character or standing are generally considered defamation per se. (I especially like that one in the context of this case.) If you have not had an attorney explain these things to you already, then you better make an appointment right now.

Please note that I am not your attorney and the above does not constitute legal advice to you. Consult with your own counsel.

Mithras;Senator Jo... (Below threshold)
Dan:

Mithras;

Senator John Edwards, is that you?

Mithras, the problem is fir... (Below threshold)
Lowell:

Mithras, the problem is first, proving damages. Remember what Olivia says in Twelfth Night, Act I, Scene V, lines 88-89.

The second problem is COLLECTING A JUDGMENT. Suppose the University sues, what property are they going to attach in order to collect a judgment? A few Maxim magazines and a couple of inflatable dolls?

Remember what Olivia say... (Below threshold)

Remember what Olivia says

Well, having Wizbang's authors publicly acknowledge themselves to be "allowed fools" may be the issue. Which brings up your second point. Presumably, they have jobs; wages can be garnisheed. And money damages is one kind of judgment; injunctive relief is another. There are all kinds of things that a court can order you to do when you lose a defamation case.

Mithras, I have always thou... (Below threshold)
Lowell:

Mithras, I have always thought that the phrase "allowed fool" in the line means "someone generally acknowledged to be a fool", rather than "someone who admits that he is a fool."

From the link provided by E... (Below threshold)
Reposter:

From the link provided by Exploding Head:
What you see is a professor's research project intended for students and colleagues at Utah State to comment upon and contribute to.

Well, he was critiqued. Maybe more harshly than he is used to, but it is no different than having a student, faculty member, or any other person critique his work.


The really frightening thing is all the uproar people like you and the person that wrote that article have created. The Left likes to talk about the crushing of free speech - look in the mirror. Every criticism of the professor's work is valid. He presented what he believes is evidence that the documents were not forged, and came to that conclusion. His evidence and his conclusion were challenged.


I hope he tries to take this to court. He'll look foolish attempting to argue that his paper - which he posted so it could be subjected to review and criticism - was in fact reviewed and criticized.
Posted by Sean at October 4, 2004 06:01 PM

Lowell- I have al... (Below threshold)

Lowell-
I have always thought that the phrase "allowed fool" in the line means "someone generally acknowledged to be a fool"

Could be; Shakespearean English is not my area of expertise. We use "allow" as "admit" today, in the sense of "I will allow that my argument rests on facts that have not been proved."

Anyway, if it's defamation per se, you don't have to prove damage as an element. (You would have to prove them for the purposes of quantifying the award, although punitives are probably also available.)

Reposter-
He'll look foolish attempting to argue that his paper - which he posted so it could be subjected to review and criticism - was in fact reviewed and criticized.

That's irrelevant. There are legal limits on what one can say in criticism and, roughly, those limits are the laws governing assault and defamation.


Ha, ha, ha, when was the la... (Below threshold)
Reposter:

Ha, ha, ha, when was the last time anyone won a libel suit in this country? Go busy yourself with more case law research, Mithras. I expect, when you post again, you'll be quoting from the Utah law library.

Reposter-Here are a ... (Below threshold)

Reposter-
Here are a few big cases from New York, 2003 ($700,000), California, 2002 ($250,000), Delaware, 2000 ($3 million), just on the first couple google pages.

Any other questions?

Oh, so you had your researc... (Below threshold)
Reposter:

Oh, so you had your research ready. Who do you work for?

You looking for trouble, you come to the right place, as the song goes.

Here's another yummy piece from Hailey's own site:

Excerpt from current version of Hailey's Bush Memo Font Study:

"In addition, I served in the U.S. military (Army) from 1963 to 1972. For five of those seven years I was an Army illustrator responsible for short run publications including memos such as those in question. Ultimately, I have a total of almost 35 years experience examining document production, including analyzing and spec’ing type. I have an archive that includes military documents produced between 1963 and 1984 and have access to a repository of military documents here at the university. Finally, I have extensive experience using computers to manage and manipulate images, including type."

******

And here's Dan Rather, tha man, profiling a forger for us:

Reference http://nyobserver.com/pages/frontpage1.asp September 15, 2004 2:36

Excerpt:

"Mr. Rather said that it would require an exceptional amount of knowledge to craft a forgery—and not just the typographical kind. "You’d have to have an in-depth knowledge of Air Force manuals from 1971," he said. "You’d have to have Bush’s service record, you’d have to have the Air Force regulations from 1971, you’d have to know nearly all of the people involved directly at that time, including the squadron commander, who was Bush’s immediate superior, and his attitude at the time—you’d have to know all those things and weave all those things in."

*******

How yummy it's going to be to take discovery of Hailey - who asked him to do his study? When? Was he paid? By whom? When did he get those docs? Whose internet sites did he access to see those fabricated documents?

Further discovery: Request for Production of Documents: Copies of all correspondence with Mapes, Burkett (the cut-out for the delivery to CBS), Lukasiak with the many "OETR" mistakes in his AWOL Pjt site, Col. Lechliter with his in depth "study" of Air Force Manuals, Boston Globe (with their 20 Aug 1988 article with the error on Staudt's retirement year), Martin Heldt (with his fountain of military FOI docs on Bush), USA Today (with their copies of 6 docs, all with clear cut and paste marks still on them), McAuliffe, Lockhart, Sasso, on and on...

Oh, so you had your rese... (Below threshold)

Oh, so you had your research ready.

Nah, that's not research, that's two minutes spent enlightening your ignorant self. I see it was wasted effort. You apparently don't know the first thing about law or how litigation works and, if the university or Prof. Hailey decides to sue, you are in for quite a shock.

You looking for trouble, you come to the right place, as the song goes.

*snicker*

We'll see who has the last ... (Below threshold)
Reposter:

We'll see who has the last laugh.

You apparently don't kno... (Below threshold)
julie:

You apparently don't know the first thing about law or how litigation works

Well, I do, and you most certainly don't. Only a real idiot (YOU) would think cutting and pasting some cases and articles from the internet makes him an atty and an expert in defamation law.

Hey, since this blogger say... (Below threshold)

Hey, since this blogger says he is a lawyer and is encouraging you all to continue in your behavior, if you lose the suit and end up owing your homes to David Hailey and USU (or your lawyers), you should look into filing suit against him for negligence... just in case. He's a lawyer, so he's probably got the insurance and money to cover it. You'll be doing him a favor too... Blogging legal advice to specific people in the midst of a dispute isn't good.

http://sayanythingblog.com/archives/004468.php

I love satire! Bush is funny...
Chase your tails! Go boy!
Go for it! Woof! Woof!

Not my website, but sure is peculiar!

http://www.bettybowers.com/isbushgay.html




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