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Putin: Terrorist Target Bush Defeat

Russian President Vladimir Putin knows who the terrorists want to see defeated.

"Any unbiased observer understands that attacks of international terrorist organizations in Iraq, especially nowadays, are targeted not only and not so much against the international coalition as against President Bush," Putin said.

"International terrorists have set as their goal inflicting the maximum damage to Bush, to prevent his election to a second term.

"If they succeed in doing that, they will celebrate a victory over America and over the entire anti-terror coalition," Putin said.

"In that case, this would give an additional impulse to international terrorists and to their activities, and could lead to the spread of terrorism to other parts of the world."

Ever the pragmatist, he notes that, "we respect any choice the American people will make."


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Comments (69)

Excellent observations, and... (Below threshold)
-S-:

Excellent observations, and accurate, by Putin. Except that last part. While I realize that "other countries" -- that includes Russia -- must live with the results of the November election, Putin's reasoning is rather uncomfortable there: a Bush loss equates with a win to terrorism and terrorists (I agree with that), but Russia can "respect" that result, should it occur.

Hmmm...not what Putin MAY be intending to express, I realize, but it is what's concluded from what he says in that concluding statement.

BECAUSE, if a Kerry win is also a terrorist win (I agree that it would be), then "the American people" haven't made the "choice," but the terrorists have, terrorism has, by influence undue or outright.

His points are insightful and accurate but the conclusion seems to be that Russia would, therefore, be respectful of terrorism.

- Based on the obvious succ... (Below threshold)
Hunter:

- Based on the obvious success's that Bush's approach of preemptive strike has achieved in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and hopefully will be seen in Iraq as well, it's easy to take Putin's view of things. I'm not so convinced....

- A good argument could be made that the Islamists would prefer to deal with Bush's strong minded, but predictable approach, rather than the ever changing unpredictable "decide by polling" approach they might face with Kerry in the presidency....

- The Islamists leadership may be peopled by lunitic extremists, but they are not stupid, many of whom have been educated in Western schools and understand the international political and economic waring game.....

- They would also be aware that the American electorate would tend to backlash against their support for either candidate, making their endorsement harmful rather than helpful....

- An interesting possibility. But since the "siege" mentality and military isolationism that Kerry prefers is a time proven losing strategy, if the Islamists are gaming this election I for one will be very willing to give them their wish with a Bush win....

"Any unbiased observer ... (Below threshold)

"Any unbiased observer understands that attacks of international terrorist organizations in Iraq, especially nowadays, are targeted not only and not so much against the international coalition as against President Bush," Putin said.

International coallition? What international coallition? Perhaps someone should inform Kerry of this ASAP so he will quit making an ass of himself by declaring this a unilateralist action.

Kerry, quit making an @$$ o... (Below threshold)

Kerry, quit making an @$$ of himself? But ... but ... that's all he's got left! He's hoping for the "Damn, but that guy's an @$$ -- let's give him what he wants and maybe he'll go away" vote.

Thing is, that's his base.

Bush endorsed by KGB dictat... (Below threshold)
Tom:

Bush endorsed by KGB dictator. Nice.

What will it take to finall... (Below threshold)
NeilS:

What will it take to finally alarm conservatives? You would think that the endorsement of a former head of the KGB, even as he is consolidating control in his own country, would be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Bush is no conservative! Look at his fiscal policy. Look at his interest in being policeman to the world. Look at his farm policies. Look at his interest in rewriting the Constitution in order to intrude on sexual behavior of individuals. Look at his immigration plicies. Is this the direction that you want for the Republican Party? What would Barry think? Where is the conscience of conservatives now?

ps I notice that the Weekly Standard, The Washington Times and NRO don't mention this endorsement. Clearly they are uncomofrtable with it.

I'm not entirely certain th... (Below threshold)
John:

I'm not entirely certain that we need to take tips from Vladimir "New Russian Totalitarianism" Putin on how to defend democracy and freedom in the United States.

The 'terrorists' end-goal i... (Below threshold)

The 'terrorists' end-goal is to unite the entire middle east to fight a war with the west and a religiously fundamentalist christian president and his crusade on their homeland to fight evil is a helluva start.

This battle of the holy warriors is exactly the kind of response al qaeda wants from america for what better way to unite the middle east than to give them a common enemy.

The middle east has as many people as the USA and as much money andi s about the same size geographically...do you want to have another world war? Then vote for Bush cuz that's exactly where we are headed!

Would conservatives be flau... (Below threshold)
mac:

Would conservatives be flaunting this bit if it had come from, let's say, Muammar Qaddafi? No, I'm not making an attempt to say that Putin is on par with Qaddafi...but both have done some questionable things. I tend to take that kind of thing with a large grain of salt.

It seems kind of silly that an al Qaeda attack now would be an attempt to unseat Bush. Surely they have intelligence people who have read the reports that say allegiance to Bush increases whenever terror alerts increase. While I have no doubt al Qaeda truly hates Bush's policies [although I doubt claims that al Qaeda wants to have tea and crumpets with Kerry], they surely are benefitting in recruitment efforts through those same policies.

You have got to be kidding ... (Below threshold)
~A!:

You have got to be kidding me. You are joking, right? Al Qaeda recruitment is the highest it's ever been, Afghanistan's economy depends on illegal drug exports, and Iraq is only half under our control.

There are terrorists in Iraq who were never there before, the world hates us, and even your beloved Poland is pulling out of this grand coalition of yours.

Are you deliberately this obtuse?

~A!

These scare tactics are rea... (Below threshold)

These scare tactics are really getting old. I would think that people as smart as you people like to appear to be would be able to come up with something that doesn't wreak sheer desperation -- a sure sign of your complete fear and insecurity of a Bush defeat. Calling a Kerry win a "terrorist win" is the saddest conspiracy theory I've seen the Republicans come up with since you people launched your pathetic attack on the homosexuals just because you thought it would help you win at the polls. Oops! Ya lost that one, didn't ya? THAT pathetic move also wreaked sheer desperation and insecurity. It was also another fear tactic. Is there anything else you people can come up with? Any other rabbits ya can pull out of your hat? Hurry, make it quick! The election is 15 days away.

Genia
A Member of The PBA

Ooooo, touchy Libs. LOL. Ac... (Below threshold)
Jim:

Ooooo, touchy Libs. LOL. Actually, the terrorists do hope Kerry wins. He's a joke. And if Putin came out for Kerry, you Libs would have loved it. You've always had a soft spot in your little hearts for Russia, although you preferred Stalin to Putin. LOL.
What a bunch of jerks. LOL.

The former head of the KGB ... (Below threshold)

The former head of the KGB endorses Bush and you think that this is a homerun for Republicans? Okay ... whatever. LOL

Honestly, guys, get a grip. The fear campaigns don't work with intelligent people. Hell, the normally don't work with the less than intelligent people. My cat would have more sense than to take crap like this under consideration when choosing who to vote for.

And, I seriously doubt al Qaeda is sweating who our next president will be. They are too busy blowing up our soldiers in Iraq.

Jim, president Bush's nickn... (Below threshold)

Jim, president Bush's nickname for steel-eyed former KGB agent, Vladimir Putin is "pootie-poot". Putin is not a teddy bear, he is a cunning master of realpolitik and geopolitical strategy. Don't underestimate him. And I assure you, Putin does not have America's best interests in mind.If you think Putin is our friend, than you don't need any enemies.

Nick Lewis
Proud Founder of the PBA

I'm surprised that no one h... (Below threshold)

I'm surprised that no one here has the ears to hear the gentle whisper, "Quid pro quo, George Dubya, quid pro quo...

Do you honestly believe that Putin does not have reasons of his own for making that statement, that he is trying to influence our election towards his own ends? Have conservatives become so desperate, their standards so low, and their regard for their own principles so debased that the words of a former KGB official are taken as proof positive of a position? Or has "conservative" become a completely empty term?

I'm waiting for someone to argue that Putin is right precisely because he was an intelligence official. The descent to sophistry and complete intellectual bankrucy will then be complete, and everyone left of center will have to mourn the death of an honest adversary.

- I'm not exactly sure... b... (Below threshold)
Hunter:

- I'm not exactly sure... but I wouldn't be all that supprised if you look back over the months and tracked the upsurge in liberdork visits to whizbang versus upticks in the polls when Bush takes a measurable lead you would find an unmistakable association....

- The tin-foil hat crew are always so brave and willing to spout their anti-American garbage here in the states where they're perfectly safe to do so in this terrible "repressive" country....They're not quite so willing to do it in the wonderful Socialist/Communist/Marxist countries they love to defend...

- If they really believe their own rhetoric so deeply why don't they get together a group of koolaid drinkers headed by Moore and Soros, take pig-Penn and Alex Baldbrain and go sit down with Zarqawi and see if they can "discuss" peace and love without losing their heads...

- If they can pull that off then I will be much more disposed to listening to them parrot the idiotic BS of their political Profs from "World Politics"-301....

- Until I see that sort of thing be successful I will continue to see to it we defend America no matter how many foreign governments get pissed because we screwed up their oil contracts......

"What a bunch of jerks. LOL... (Below threshold)

"What a bunch of jerks. LOL."

When logic Fails, insult...

David Scott Anderson
Founder
The PBA

To suggest that terrorists ... (Below threshold)

To suggest that terrorists will change their attitude towards America or the International coalition based upon who we elect as President is a logical fallacy, which of course is probably intended to exploit emotional and intellectual weaknesses of those who blindly follow your weak rhetoric.

These people hate Democracy and bipartisanship. Even if we could achieve perfect harmony and balance between our two parties, the fact that Americans value civil liberties, including gender equality and freedom of religion, will always be something that terrorists under such dictators will forever abhor.

Back to the huddle...find another approach, because this one is riddled with holes.

.

Putin is a KGB shark. He wo... (Below threshold)

Putin is a KGB shark. He wouldn't support Kerry because Kerry won't support his dismantling of a Russian constitution on which the ink isn't even dry yet. Bush will. Cheerfully. And this tells you nothing?

"The tin-foil hat crew are ... (Below threshold)

"The tin-foil hat crew are always so brave and willing to spout their anti-American garbage here"

Sure, Hunter: Publications like Foreign Policy, and Stratfor Geopolitical Diary are on the same level as Alex Jones.

BTW, are you not aware that Putin is a totalitarian? Your argument against us (if that's what you'd call it), is nothing more than a polemical rant on Moore, Intellectuals, Soros, and this mysterious "left" that you speak of.

Nick Lewis
Proud Founder of PBA

What this whole discussion ... (Below threshold)

What this whole discussion is ignoring is that there are really, as Bush staffers are now saying, two kinds of conservatives: Reality-Based Conservatives (RBC) and Faith-Based Conservatives (FBC). The RBC are attacking Bush because of the negative impact of his policies on reality: the needless, expensive, unwinnable war that has become the greatest recruitment tool ever for terrorists (so that Bush is actually HELPING the anti-American movement); his fiscal irresponsibility (precisely the opposite of what the RBC consider fiscal conservatism), etc.

But for the FBC, none of that matters. That's all REALITY. For the FBC, what matters is that George W. Bush has been chosen by God to fight a Holy Crusade against evil in the world. Given this faith, it doesn't really matter what facts you throw at them; their faith is overwhelmingly more important than facts. Bush himself has said this: that his faith outvotes the facts. And it seems there are plenty of right-wing Christians who are willing to follow him in this--including, apparently, on this list.

If you truly believe in Holy War, if you're a pro-Bush FBC jihadist, Bush has to win, because God is on his side. Kerry has to lose, not because he would be a bad leader, but because he's not God's Chosen.

It remains to be seen whether America will stand for FBC--whether they carry the election. Some are now saying that if Bush wins, there will be civil war inside the Republican Party. But it may in fact be worse than that: there may even be civil war in America at large. This is way too egregious an assault on American democracy.

From the PBA

It's funny that Wizbang tru... (Below threshold)

It's funny that Wizbang trusts the word of a man who won't even keep nuclear sites in his own country guarded, thus letting materials needed to build a nuclear bomb out onto the black market so the highest bider, whomever they may be, can purchase them.

If this is how Putin fights the war on terror, I guess we shouldn't be surprised that he supports Bush, eh?

Thanks for letting us know which side you're on, Kevin.

Boy -- the Kerryistas were ... (Below threshold)

Boy -- the Kerryistas were really counting on that Putin endorsement for their guy, weren't they? The smell of sour (gin-soaked) raisins is so thick in here you could cut it with a knife.

- Nick...Indeed Putin is a ... (Below threshold)
Hunter:

- Nick...Indeed Putin is a Totalitarian....He could care less who wins in the American Election...Like all the self-interest driven countries in Europe he will only join in the fight on terrorism when they piss in his cornflakes like they recently did....

- He has much bigger fish to fry trying to balance half the Russian population harboring bitter memories of the mess in Afghanistan where 15,000 Russian young men died for no discernable reason with the "ists" and "isms" of the leftists in his electorate who have hamstrung his efforts over the years to overcome the "freedom fighters" of Chechnya, the leaders of which long ago were all murdered and replaced by Islamic Jihadists....

- I am Russian....I doubt you are....If you were you would have studied the situation and know much better what you're talking about....

- Both left and right extremes share in the charge of hyporbolic rant....Neither has a monopoly...

- Chanting that everyone who finds your siege mentality as tortured logic or disagrees with your misguided points view are engaging in "polemic rant" is simply lame.... you can do better than that.....

- as far as the left wingnuts that have a strangle hold on the neck of your party, if you're not aware of them you really need to get out more often....

- What you should be doing is getting out and helping your candidate in New Jersey where things are getting dicey, no matter if you quietly dislike him, instead of spamming conservative blogsites.... better use of your time.....

Some serious link-pimping g... (Below threshold)
DrSteve:

Some serious link-pimping going on. I assume the PBA blog sucks or you wouldn't need to tout your wares here.

Right. We were panting for ... (Below threshold)

Right. We were panting for an endorsement from a would-be dictator. We don't have any, see; it's the one thing we're missing. Bush has 'em all wrapped up. Dang. The Pub-Buckets beat us again. Not havin' that primo support from an ex-Soviet headbanger is pro'lly gonna lose us this here election.

Why won't dictators support John Kerry? It's a puzzlement.

And btw, fyi, we hate gin and raisins separately, never mind mixed together. We prefer chilled vodka with a thick wedge of lime.

LMAO! McGhee, you too... I ... (Below threshold)

LMAO! McGhee, you too... I thought you were a bit less delussional than most. I would still like someone to answer my question as to why it is heresy for Kerry to have foreign leaders say they prefer him, and y'all are jumping up and down to celebrate Young Stalin's pronouncement.

DA
The PBA

This is the most ridiculous... (Below threshold)
Eva:

This is the most ridiculous thing I've read yet. So, Putin of course, has no agenda of his own for making this statement, right? And it's really a great strategy to attempt to scare voters into voting for the Big Cowboy. I guess fear and intimidation are the only thing you've got left...

A Proud American and a PBA Member

And then they digress to in... (Below threshold)
Sadie PBA Girlie:

And then they digress to insults. Get to grieving boys, you're past "denial" and into "anger".... now you only have grieving and acceptance to go until the cycle of irony is complete.

I'm sure Putin has <a href=... (Below threshold)

I'm sure Putin has several reasons why he would prefer to have Bush reelected, many of which have nothing to do with the war on terror.

"...concerns have been voiced in Moscow that relations with the US could decline under the Democrats. Russian media have speculated that Kerry, if elected next month, might put extra pressure on Moscow - and even include Russia in a new "axis of evil", along with Iran and North Korea."


PBA member

Who are all these PBA peopl... (Below threshold)
Jim:

Who are all these PBA people? What's PBA mean? I'll bet they work for the DNC as blog site invaders. LOL.

No one trusts Putin except you jerks on the left. You wish he came out for Kerry. That's why you're so obsessed with it. Well, with that and lesbians, but we all know who Putin is and was. It's your candidate --Teresa's #1 Scumbag --who carves Russia and France's support for our actions.

What is so surprising about... (Below threshold)

What is so surprising about Vladimir Putin kissing George Bush’s Ягодицы? Bush has graciously followed a “hands off Russia” policy notwithstanding Putin’s “quick-step march into authoritarianism--Bonapartism with a semi-civilian face” (to quote George Will—who spinelessly exhorts the Bush administration to keep its hands off Russia, but at least doesn’t pretend that Putin has any kind of legitimacy). Bush and Putin make perfect bedfellows, the two of them having done more than might have been thought humanly possible to advance the cause of the terrorists they purport to be fighting.

dobrý voják Švejk
Red Harvest/PBA

- Here's one for all the pi... (Below threshold)
Hunter:

- Here's one for all the pinhead PBA spammers wh apparently are really "skeered" now that their feckless flip-flopper is falling behind...

- Seems even Dr Mahathir Mohamad, that upstanding humanitarian premier of Malaysia, has decided that Kerry is anti-american and anti-semitic enough that he can give him his endorsement....

http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/latest/story/0,4390,278796,00.html

- There.... now stop whining.....

Bhwahahahahahahahahaha... gawd what dorks....

Uhm, I can see it now -- al... (Below threshold)

Uhm, I can see it now -- all the security moms of America will believe this fear mongering tactic and rush to the polls to vote for G'Dubya. That's what right wingers want to see happen. But maybe, just maybe, these security moms will finally see all this propaganda as just that, propaganda, and do the right thing: make informed decisions with none influenced by fear.

Stop playing on the fears of women (and some sucker men).

Jim, PBA stands for <a href... (Below threshold)

Jim, PBA stands for Progressive Blog Alliance. We're an emerging alliance of citizens who are dedicated to peace, social justice, human rights, and democratic reforms. And no, we don't work for the DNC. But we are the GOP noise machine's worst nightmare.

And BTW, if you don't trust Putin, than we agree. And we've corrected good old Kevin, because he doesn't seem to understand that Putin is attempting to influence our elections in favor of Russian interests. Furthermore, if Bush accepts Putin's comments as true -- and there is no evidence to back it up, than Bush has committed an impeachable offense (He already did, too: when Putin told the world that he gave Bush intelligence on Iraq WMD's [remember June 18th-ish as the 9-11 commission was wrapping up its report?], Stratfor indicated that none of their sources in the Russian intelligence nor the state department seemed to know anything about it.) However, this is probably a little over your head. Seeing as how our qualm is that Putin is totalitarian who does not have our interests in mind, yet you retort with "No one trusts Putin except you jerks on the left." That's the probem with some of you people on the right: you have no appreciation for Irony.

Nick Lewis
Proud Founder of the PBA

"Here's one for all the pin... (Below threshold)

"Here's one for all the pinhead PBA spammers wh apparently are really "skeered" now that their feckless flip-flopper is falling behind..."

Intelligent argument Hunter, is that the best you can do? As for Spam, I dont see one shred of evidence of spamming anyone, unless you call intelligent rebuttal spam, no who I see as "skeered," are those who are so used to singing to the choir, that once a challenging voice comes along they shit their pants and result to third grade, neeener neener neener class insults. Remind you of anyone Hunter. The PBA's mission is to always keep the discourse civil. Maybe you should consider that, as your argument would have a lot more weight and substance. On the other hand, if you have no argument, the issue is moot, is it not? Must be pretty damned frustrating when you have no argument and the only retort is, "Look at the Libruls, gettin outta hand."
Gettin' kindda late boys, I still want to know why you are all dancin' a jigg at the endorsement of a man you were just last week accussing of taking oil for food kickbacks, while Kerry was derided by all of you for mentioning that some foreign leaders favor hims in the election. Is hypocrisy perhaps too much of a pill to swallow?


DA

Founder, The PBA...

- Nick ... Seeing as how yo... (Below threshold)
Hunter:

- Nick ... Seeing as how you and yours have already posted 15+ whines concerning Putin its pretty obvious who has a "problem" - *chuckle*

- I doubt many conservatives give a damn what Putin thinks or your other "buddies" Chirac and Castro for that matter, and now you can add Mahathir to the list of "foreign leaders" that support your "possibilities junky" boytoy Senator....

- btw....Hiding behind the "progressive" labal isn't going to work.... The sun still reflects off your tin-foil hats.....

Nick's whines (including th... (Below threshold)

Nick's whines (including this one): 4
Hunter's whines: 5

At least I can count. Again hunter, that is the problem with some of you: no concept of irony.

- Nick ... Maybe you can co... (Below threshold)
Hunter:

- Nick ... Maybe you can count but you need some practice in the reading department... to wit "you and yours".... but hey 6+ pinhead lefties versus 1 independent.... about even.... Well then agian maybe you should round up 6 more...

- When I see some iridite arguments instead of defensive sniveling I might be moved to respond in kind.....

Hunter I have seen Wizbang ... (Below threshold)

Hunter I have seen Wizbang post with 60 or more comments, mostly conservatives of course. Now for the final time, Keeper of the Conservative Faith, and Insulter in chief, what is your point besides your silly, tired Conservablather and insults.

DA
Founder, The PBA...

Nick ignore him. His threat... (Below threshold)

Nick ignore him. His threats to respond in kind are just too frightening to think about. I believe you and the other posters have made your points and documented them well. At this point he is just masturbating to some silly conservative intellectual superiority fantasy. Just ignore him.

- Dave ...I think I made se... (Below threshold)
Hunter:

- Dave ...I think I made several points in prior posts...

- If you havn't kept up with the goings on in the upper caucaus's and actions of the Jihadists/Al Qaeda in that region, as well as the mood of a large number of the Russian people you don't know enough to comment on Russian politics...

- and B) .... Not only do "we" not care about who the hell Putin endorses we care even less why. It will only really matter when they get in deep enough trouble with the Islamists that they join us in the fight.....

- All of the reluctant bridesmaid Euro's leftborg countries will grudgingly "get on board" when the Islamists lay a few bombs on their doorsteps and not until then...

- For all sorts of Nationalistic, economic, and world view reasons these countries have every good reason to want to limit America's influence. Which is their right in their own countries. But conversely, we as American's have every right to fight for and preserve our "values" as well, and even more important fight for our survival if thats whats called for, whether it "pleases" other world leaders or not...

- We're at war....."Get it"....

Wow. I had expected at... (Below threshold)

Wow. I had expected at least the semblance of a counter-argument; instead, people are refuting their positions.

Jim says: No one trusts Putin except you jerks on the left. Jimmy, does that mean reject Putin's analysis that the terrorists don't want to see Bush returned to office? Because that's what follows from what you wrote there, kid.

McGehee writes: Kerryistas were really counting on that Putin endorsement for their guy, weren't they? The smell of sour (gin-soaked) raisins is so thick in here you could cut it with a knife. So you're proud that Bush has been endorsed by Putin?

Hunter says: I am Russian. I doubt it—all of the Russian emigres I've met know English spelling and grammar much better than you do.

If I were Karl Rove, I'd be sick to my stomach that you dim-wits were my candidate's base of support. I'd be concerned that you didn't even have the sense to vote for my guy. Oh wait....

Oh, a PROGRESSIVE blog alli... (Below threshold)
Patrick Chester:

Oh, a PROGRESSIVE blog alliance. Well, boy howdy, I'm impressed.

Odd, flooding the comments section of a blog because you don't like the views expressed on the blog doesn't sound very progressive.

But please, crow and rave of how this means you're winning and all those icky awful unprogressive folk who post views you don't like are "desperate". It's always nice to see an easy example of tu quoque to reference.

I don't think the point is ... (Below threshold)
Susan:

I don't think the point is the Putin is "endorsing" Bush, he is saying that the terrorist attacks are aimed at stopping his second term...
But speaking of endorsements I guess you are all proud of Kerry's endorsement from Malaysia's Mahathir Mohamad and from Palestine's Nabil Sha'ath?

Blog site invaders? I beg t... (Below threshold)
Sadie PBA Girlie:

Blog site invaders? I beg to differ...this is my first day ever to comment on Wiz. He, however, commented on something that I wrote this morning over at David Scott Anderson's site. Merely returning the favour, as well as supporting the fastest growing web alliance in recorded blogosphere history.

Hunter wrote: "When I see s... (Below threshold)

Hunter wrote: "When I see some iridite arguments instead of defensive sniveling I might be moved to respond in kind....." (emphasis added)

"Iridite"? Do you mean "Iridium-like"? Is that what your foil hat is made of?

- The word was eridite... b... (Below threshold)
Hunter:

- The word was eridite... but good plan dobry... avoid making any intelligent replies and stick to typo correction...you'll make a good secretary for someone someday when you grow up...I always enjoy debating with anal-retentives with no point of view....for a few minutes....then it gets boring....

Actually, the word is 'erud... (Below threshold)

Actually, the word is 'erudite' but I'm sure you would have got it in 3 or 4 more tries...maybe 5....

Okay, just let me clear one... (Below threshold)

Okay, just let me clear one thing up. We are not invading Wizbang. Kevin is a friend, and we are contributing to the discussion, I have many conservative commenters on my Blog, and welcome them. Patrick, what do you suggest, that a blogs comment section be reserved only for those who agree, I dont think anyone wants that on their blog, gets pretty boring, pretty fast. The posters have tried to add to the discourse today by pointing out the hypocrisy of a conservative Blog using a Putin endorsement to validate Putin's claim that the US will be safer with Bush in the White house, while:

a. Just a week or so ago he was an Oil For Food scumbag.
b. When Kerry mentioned his support by foreign leaders, it was widely criticized in conservative circles.

Neither of these points have been addressed to this point, and I would like to see someone do so, failling in that, the conversation has deteriorated into ridiculous insults.

Yes Hunter, I am well aware of the situation in Russia. I am also aware of Putin's shrewd use of his own terror crises to compound his power. Niether have anything to do with the jist of this discussion.

I am sure that those who have used insults today to counter logic are aware that this has absolutely no impact on either the logic of the arguments or the self esteem of those making the arguments. The PBA happens to be compossed of some of the smartest people in the Blogsphere.

I appreciate the opportunity Kevin has given us to offer an oppossing point of view, unfortunate that no one stepped up to offer any real arguments to contradict that point of view.

DA

- DA .... Didn't mean to co... (Below threshold)
Hunter:

- DA .... Didn't mean to come off so heavy handed...also did not know of your friendship with Kevin.... My apologies on both counts....

Hunter, Kevin is one of my ... (Below threshold)

Hunter, Kevin is one of my Blog Daddies, and one of the strongest supporters of my little lefty corner of the web. We have always been able to argue without being nasty to each other. Apollogy accepted.
I hope we will always be able to have these dissagreements without being dissagreeable.

DA

- Ok... points have been st... (Below threshold)
Hunter:

- Ok... points have been stated... point by point reply... both sides call a moratorium on ad hominim attacks...

a. Just a week or so ago he was an Oil For Food
scumbag.

- He may be up to his armpits in the OFF scandal. Don't really care if we join forces in the terrorism thing.....Same for France....Same for Germany

b. When Kerry mentioned his support by foreign leaders, it was widely criticized in conservative circles.

- It was criticized, at least in part by people who have some insight, because on the one hand it was terribly naive in its implications, and on the other it was really just an underhanded way to opine on the veracity of the Iraq war...

- There is one simple reason why these three countries are in such a hurry suddenly to hold a summit on Iran.... a few weeks ago Iran started testing long range rockets that can reach their front porches.... Nothing like that sort of wake up call to change attitudes fast....

Things to consider...... (Below threshold)

Things to consider...

I'm not unaware of the PBA, as three folks I regularly read: Mac, Lauren, and David are among the members.

They (along with hundreds of others) have a comment trackrecords here at Wizbang.

The other PBA members are new here. You just haven't earned the latitudes afforded to known commenters yet. I'm sorry but it just doesn't work that way, not here, not anywhere.

I hate to single out taz, but that's not the way I'd want to introduce myself to another blogger - by telling them what they think.

PBA means Punks Bitchy Assh... (Below threshold)
Jim:

PBA means Punks Bitchy Assholes is more like it. LOL. At least they found their life's calling. Better they stay on the internet than create their idiotic mischief in the real world.

Jim, AOL eh... Interesting.... (Below threshold)

Jim, AOL eh... Interesting. Do you have anthing to add to the discussion or did you just pop in from AIM to insult folks, and thanks Kevin.
Peace,

DA

Lest you think I'm picking ... (Below threshold)

Lest you think I'm picking on the PBA members, there's been lots of commenters from the right who've gotten notes or warnings too...

I've already wasted 45 minutes trying to craft the previous comment properly as a post, then as a comment. I've said my peace...

Anderson -- I guess delusio... (Below threshold)

Anderson -- I guess delusional is in the eye of the beholder. Your boy's going down. Even he knows it.

But you haven't said anythi... (Below threshold)
Amy:

But you haven't said anything, have you?

The possible resemblance of an argument, I thought I may have detected:

Kerry is naive about the threat of terrorism. Because he favors diplomacy, I suppose, over PNAC. And because there is tremendous nostalgia in this country for the old antagonisms, for the nationalistic paranoias of the Cold War and before.

But surely we've learned from our mistakes by now, haven't we, fellow true conservatives? That stubborn, evangelical mentality is even less appropriate today.

I am just wondering, are there usually more capable folks discussing here or what?

- Amy - If straightfoward c... (Below threshold)
Hunter:

- Amy - If straightfoward comments are too "nuanced" for your inexperienced ears to "detect" perhaps sitting quietly with your hands in your lap and listening carefully to your more experienced elders might better serve you....

- The left hates the idea of America as a world power almost as much as they hate war, even if its fought for our survival. Am I to assume from the use of the code words "evangelical mentality" that you share the same aversions?...

- If I have to explain to you why Kerry's comments sounded Naive given the internal political realities of France including its demographic/ideological makeup then its probably a waste of time.....

Dear PBA members:P... (Below threshold)
Rocketman:

Dear PBA members:

Please take a minute to watch you VP candidate play with his hair. This almost made me wet my pants.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2108216/slideshow/2108085/entry/2108087/speed/100

"No one trusts Putin exc... (Below threshold)

"No one trusts Putin except you jerks on the left. You wish he came out for Kerry."

Stupidest statement I've read all day.

Who ever said that we are j... (Below threshold)

Who ever said that we are jumping up and down? We have our own agenda, and it just so happens a prominent world leader (his past makes no difference, he is the current leader of Russia, His past with the KGB doesn't matter anymore. Note that Gorbechov was the General Secretary no less when he ended the cold war).

Ah, so I read abundant repe... (Below threshold)
-S-:

Ah, so I read abundant repeats and emphasis here that the "Progressives" from the left really, actually really, really do hold Christians in distaste. Fear, perhaps. Illogic, certainly.
But, the election is about religion far more than any Progressive will ever admit. If there's a religious war, then that is it, but it's being waged by "Progessives" and some among Islam, but by covert effort (just read the PBA site and these comments here).

Never cesases to amaze me just how distorted "Christianity" and "Bush faith based supporters" are misrepresented by people who (1.) have no experience as Christians and (2.) actually fear and loathe Christianity, always show up with the most egregiously aggressive denigration of and about Christians.

So, again I write, it is this "Progressive" retrogression by some Americans that is, in fact, the most "fundamental" in nature: fear based misinformation, shared in some unity of behavior (you are all accredited and affiliating with this one group, the "PBA"), a need and insistence on some sort of group psychology that promotes an effort to "conquer" (and to silence, thereby) the freedom of beliefs and individual uniquenss of others.

People of Christian faith vote for President George Bush because they perceive a trustworthy, sincere person who shares their values and beliefs and behaviors. I can't speak for persons of other faiths, but I am sure that President Bush's appeal is close to that for other faiths with similar concerns about character in a President (and which influences their vote).

What does NOT surprise me by the influx here of PBA-ers is that none of you complain about John Kerry who touts himself as "a Catholic." And why is that? Because Kerry is no Catholic but wears a label, disregards a Christian conscience in how he votes and behaves, so there's no threat there to anyone who really hates Christ and Christianity.

"Separation of Church and State" does not trump personal character. You know a person by his fruits. Kerry votes to endorse, fund and provide for bitter fruit, you get bitter fruit, and you can tell a lot about the man behind the statements and appearances afterward. A man is known by his fruits. The government is formed by men (and women, granted), based upon the character of those doing the forming. No one's telling anyone to "go Christian" or anything related but you'd never know that by reading Progessive distortions.

A reminder: Kerry's description of him as intending nominating judges who will and would endorse his ideology, reveals his intention to legislate his ideology -- and because the ideology he says he intends to legislate are oppositional, actually defy, what Christianity teaches and requires, Kerry reveals again his character: not Christian, certainly not Catholic.

So, in order: you evaluate character and then you vote accordingly. You can rely on a man/woman of character to evaluate information and "legislate" with character, with a reliable process, or, not. Most people chose Bush because he's reliable, his character is proven. Most people don't trust Kerry because he's not reliable and his lack of character has been proven.

The rest of the issues -- Putin, Christianity, the so-called "Bush jihadists" -- that's just the language of avoidance.

Oh, and China is being reli... (Below threshold)
-S-:

Oh, and China is being relied upon to provide some assistance with North Korea, by the United States.

I'd say, rather than be upset about Putin as a leader in Russia, you could appreciate these other nations that dialogue with the U.S. administration in hopes of overcoming terrorism and nuclear threats.

I guess it's just John Kerry's "alliances" that work for Progressives. I don't know about anyone else, but the Progressives sure do read to me like a squad.

What, was that supposed to ... (Below threshold)
Amy:

What, was that supposed to be some kind of air-clearing climax? I've been holding my hands in my lap elsewhere because this place is so boring.

"(you are all accredited and affiliating with this one group, the "PBA"), a need and insistence on some sort of group psychology that promotes an effort to "conquer" (and to silence, thereby) the freedom of beliefs and individual uniquenss of others."

nope. but that sounds a lot like some folks, to be sure.

"People of Christian faith vote for President George Bush because they perceive a trustworthy, sincere person who shares their values and beliefs and behaviors."

good grief. you sound like you are trying to convince yourself. oh wait, that's the only way you ever sound. yawn.
you are in the radical minority of complete idiots on this planet and someone should tell you this more often. but not me, i'm bored and leaving. read up on PNAC, listen to the BBC a bit, and try to post something original, i dare you.

"What does NOT surprise me ... (Below threshold)

"What does NOT surprise me by the influx here of PBA-ers is that none of you complain about John Kerry who touts himself as "a Catholic." And why is that? Because Kerry is no Catholic but wears a label, disregards a Christian conscience in how he votes and behaves"

That's right. When he's wearing his politician hat, he is not allowed to let his personal feelings enter into his decision making process. But Bush's actions (namely on Stem Cell restrictions, abortion, and gay marrige) show that he has no such self-control.

How was this poll of the te... (Below threshold)

How was this poll of the terrorists carried out. Did a reporter walk around and talk to suicide bombers before their missions? This is just one more tired Republican meme--Even though Shrub has failed economical and diplomatically, we need his tough daddy snarl to scare away all the boogey-men. Of course, he may end up attacking the wrong country from time to time . . .

I'm tired of the discussion... (Below threshold)

I'm tired of the discussion of whether terrorists want Bush to win or lose. The truth is that we don't know and won't know. It's possible that terrorists could claim a Bush loss as a victory. But it's equally possible that they'd see it as their loss, the loss of their best straw man who makes it easier for them to argue that this is a religious war, Christian against Islam.

The question of who the terrorists want to win strikes me as a distraction from the real issues before us, ones that we have concrete information about. Can't we discuss those?




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