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And Now a Moment of Silence

After reading Kevin's last post, about the missing explosives, I think it is time for everyone to gather together, bow our heads and offer a moment of silence for J o s h u a M i c a h M a r s h a ll


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Comments (14)

I don't think this will be ... (Below threshold)
Bill K:

I don't think this will be the death of TPM, but I do have to hand it to you - - that is a pretty funny post.

There's no chance it will b... (Below threshold)
SPG:

There's no chance it will be the death of TPM; the left chooses its blogs on the basis of ideological purity (and, often, the amount of anger/BDS contained within them), not accuracy or even the slightest desire to seek truth.

In any case, it's hard to muster up even a moment of silence for someone who gets humiliated like JMM does, when it's his own lust to spin stories he knows aren't quite true that end up getting him in trouble in the first place.

Do you think he honestly ni... (Below threshold)
Bill K:

Do you think he honestly nitially put out a story thinking it was false?

I think it was just because he was misinformed.

Though I do agree with your statement, "the left chooses its blogs on the basis of ideological purity (and, often, the amount of anger/BDS contained within them)", I think the same can be said for the right. And, as much as I argue with many right bloggers, I don't think any large and popular site has the intention of being inaccurate or dishonest.

Josh is the angry water boy... (Below threshold)
Shivas Irons:

Josh is the angry water boy. H Hewitt emasculates him weekly on his program - when he has the courage to show up. I love when Josh reaches higher octaves as the interview goes on - sort of like he should be screaming right now as he senses the train rollin' on down that tracks right at he and his...

"Do you think he honestl... (Below threshold)
Paul:

"Do you think he honestly [i]nitially put out a story thinking it was false?"

(OK you did not ask me but when have I been known to keep my mouth shut?)

No. I think he did not care.

There are a group of lefty bloggers (most, if not all of which are on someone's payroll BTW) who really don't give a shit if they are wrong.

They wake up every morning and just type whatever they want and they have not a care in the world if it true. As long as they can bash Bush (or what ever the flavor of the day is) they are happy.

Accuracy? HA! That's for the simpletons.
Facts? HA! Those are for people who can't spin.

They simply say when they want and they are held in great regard by a whole class of people who lack critical thinking skills. (hey you asked the question, don't complain when I give my opinion)

Kerry is no different. Nobody in the Western world knows if bin Laden is dead or alive except John Kerry. (well and Josh Marshall) The fact Kerry gets up there and says things that have no basis in reality means nothing to his supporters. Yet, if Bush said bin Laden was dead, they would demand proof.

Or (God I love this example) take Florida. Gore wanted to count votes differently depending on which county they were from. "Dimples" in one county "hanging chads" in another county. The supreme court RIGHTFULLY told him he was full of shit. But that does not stop the lefty loons from saying the supreme court stole the election.

To many on the left, facts, logic and reason are not important. They are religious zealots and no amount of logic will convince them otherwise.

Do I think he KNEW the story was wrong? HA! That implies he gave a shit about getting it right in the first place.

------

For the record, I said a group of lefty bloggers, but it extends past the blogosphere. And maybe someone can point to this behavior on the right, but I have not seen it within an order of magnitude as prevalent as it is on the left.

I think it would make it ha... (Below threshold)
Bill K:

I think it would make it hard for me to evaluate any situation if I immediately thought everybody who had different ideological thoughts then me was lying (granted you didn't say that, but you obviously think it about a large subset of the Democratic party and left leaning blogosphere).

As for this exact story, besides the time frame (which is at least somewhat still up for debate) where is Josh factually incorrect? His editorializing may be incorrect, but there are missing explosives. Iraq did tell the IAEA. The White House did seem to have a bit of a problem consistently stating when everybody knew about what. It's not like he randomly stated that some weapons were missing and then left it at that. He obviously did some research on the subject. And, he has updated posts that take into consideration the new facts presented by NBC. He is not blindly avoiding facts.

The reason the left jumped on this story wasn't necessarily because it was huge news (though I think it was), but because it fit into the pattern of poor pre and post war planning. Just like why Kevin, and other bloggers, jumped on the Kerry Game 6 thing. Because it fit into the pattern of Kerry being loose with the truth about personal events. Both stories now have plausible explanations and both you and Josh have included, but talked away, those explanations. How is he any different than most in that regard?

By the way, in a comment at another location you state Marshall is my demigod. To be honest, I read him daily, but don't list him as one of my favorites by any stretch of the imagination. In fact I have pointed people (nicely) to your site around 10 times as often as I have pointed people to Josh's.

Sorry for the long post.

Do you think he honestly... (Below threshold)
SPG:

Do you think he honestly nitially put out a story thinking it was false?

Well, yes and no. At the least, he jumped on it without thinking it through, because he so desperately wants there to be an October Surprise that brings down Bush.. The very first thing the conservative bloggers/Free Republic types said when this story hit last night was, "Hey, wait a minute. How do we know the exlosives weren't already gone before the US forces even got there? You can't just move that amount of stuff out on the back of a pickup truck." Yet Marshall - who is not stupid - somehow manages to have never thought about this possibility, or (worse) thought about it but rolled the dice anyway in the hopes that one major MSM outlet would never attack another's story so directly, out of professional courtesy.

And prior to summer 2004, they indeed probably would not have done so.

Marshall's style of blogging reminds me very much of a certain mailing list to which I subscribe. It is very useful for getting all sorts of news and opinions about current technology news, but the owner is a major league liberal, and loves tossing out to the list, usually with little or no comment, all sorts of anti-Bush propaganda that he comes across. Then people can write him back attempting to challenge it, and if he likes the response he'll send it to the rest of the list. (It's a one-way list; only the owner can post.)

To be fair, this listowner does almost always post responses when they show his original post to be either misleading or outright fraudulent, but they whole thing still leaves me with an unpleasant taste in my mouth, because the cycle never ends. He posts something anti-Bush, and then everyone else has to prove him wrong. And they do prove him wrong as often as two or three times per week, yet the hit pieces never stop coming. The overall stench of BDS never really goes away on that list, and a person not extremely proactive in seeking lots of information on the current issues of the day would definitely come away from that list thinking "Wow, Bush is evil," regardless of how many times the BDS posts are slapped down.

To me, Marshall runs his blog in a similar fashion. He desperately wants to be a member of the Old Media, and keeps working like hell to break big stories. Then when they blow up in his face, he spends one or two entire news cycles backtracking just a little bit at a time (by my count he's made eighteen posts on Al Qaqaa thus far, in just the last day and a half). Only he's worse than the mailing list owner I speak of above, because Marshall always spends all that time in his blog posts obfuscating the growing proof of his main allegation's inaccuracy, usually by introducing irrelevant side issues (Why isn't Bremer talking, what did Condi Rice know and when did she know it, etc.).

All in all, it's not lying per se, but it's a bit too close for my comfort. IMHO, anyway.

And, as much as I argue with many right bloggers, I don't think any large and popular site has the intention of being inaccurate or dishonest.

Well, true to a point. I think many of the most ideologically extreme blogs on both sides believe what they post to be true, but that doesn't mean that in many cases there remains an objective reality in that a given allegation is indeed either true or false (or patrially true and partially false). And I do believe that the most popular left-wing blogs tend to be much more hyperideological than the most popular right-wing blogs, but that is just my opinion of course.

By the way, just to clarify... (Below threshold)
SPG:

By the way, just to clarify, when I posted the following statement above:

the left chooses its blogs on the basis of ideological purity ... not accuracy or even the slightest desire to seek truth.

...I did not mean to imply that most left-wing blogs are inherently dishonest and interested only in smearing the right-wing, truth be damned. All I meant was that the audience for left-wing blogs is, to an unhealthily large extent, interested in ideological purity more than truth. I just cannot understand why sites like Kos get all the audience and the press when there are other far more worthy (but far less nasty) liberal-oriented blogs out there that receive far less traffic than they deserve.

SPG, do you think that is b... (Below threshold)
Bill K:

SPG, do you think that is because the larger lefty blogs (Atrios and Kos) have a more vested interest in it all? Meaning, they don't just post their opinions like Wizbang or I. They are soliciting large scale donations, interacting with actual candidates, and tangibly affecting the outcome of some races. Almost becoming another arm of a candidates campaign.

I mean, I am definitely a democrat, but will at times take wacks at stupidity from a democrat. Just like Wizbang, Instapundit, et al. will take jabs a stupidity from Republicans. We do this because we aren't bound to toe the party line at any turn. Atrios and Kos almost are at this point, right?

Bill K: Yes, I think what y... (Below threshold)
SPG:

Bill K: Yes, I think what you say is entirely possible, perhaps even probable. However, I think it's a bit of a vicious circle, and that a big part of the reason that Kos and Atrios "hit it big," so to speak, is because they managed to attract that fired-up base in the first place thanks to their extremely strong posting styles. (I can't speak much about Kos, because I never really knew about his site until he was already well-connected to the Democratic establishment, but I remember when Eschaton was just getting started, and he was as full of fire and brimstone then as he is now.)

I'm off to bed, but I'll check back in here tomorrow. Nice chatting with you, Bill.

First, I never said he was ... (Below threshold)
Paul:

First, I never said he was incorrect... I really did not read all he wrote because it would be a waste of my time anyway. In skimming though, I found many things he was way off base on.

But- I found your point of view interesting...

The White House did seem to have a bit of a problem consistently stating when everybody knew about what.

Do you really in your heart of hearts believe that with a whole country at war to run that a bureaucracy the size of the Whitehouse could be expected to respond to this story with laser accuracy in minutes.... I think they have more than one ammo dump to worry about. Your line of attack is sort of like CBS "Hey, the Whitehouse had documents for 3 hours and they did not say they were fake so they must be legit."

You gloss over the fact that you are asking about something that represents .000000001% of their total job. Don't be real surprised if takes some time check with everyone and see who knew what when.

He is not blindly avoiding facts.

Oh No? The Whitehouse said (I think it is on page 3 of the story) that the weapons were gone when we got there. Josh ignored what turned out to be true!

The reason the left jumped on this story wasn't necessarily because it was huge news (though I think it was), but because it fit into the pattern of poor pre and post war planning.

Yes, in your left echo chamber world, that pattern exists... Remember a year ago when everyone said the Taliban had retaken Afghanistan over and the whole thing was hell in a hand basket? Remember all the lefties talking about how Bush abandoned Afghanistan for Iraq and now it was a mess.... Gee what a difference a year makes. Now Afghanistan is a model of success.

Where do you think Iraq will be in a year or two? Could it possibly be that the same lefties who were wrong on Afghanistan are wrong in Iraq????

I love the way you guys think... You make a series of charges then say they must be true because they fit the pattern.

And the game 6 thing has a plausible explanation??? I need a link for that one.

--and no need to apologize for the length of the post. As long as there is no moonbattery, lengthy discussions are encouraged.. by me anyway.--

P

I wasn't making a judgement... (Below threshold)
Bill K:

I wasn't making a judgement as to if the patterns by Bush or Kerry were accurate (though you can imagine my thoughts) I was just using it as a point.

You don't think it is plausible that the former Lieutenant Governor and reigning Senator for the state of Mass. jumped on a shuttle to get to Game 6 of a Red Sox World Series game? As a Cubs fan, I think it is plausible for the current Governor of Illinois to shut down the state to attend a Cubs World Series game.

Well, it appears I am responding out of order, but I think you can follow along. I understand your point about the White House not being able to respond quickly but, seeing as we went into the country to account for, and remove, the weapons stashed there, you would think people in the upper levels would be aware of missing stuff. And, I think it is naive to believe that they didn't have the story before we did (and I posted it at 9:21 last night). So, they had a whole night. Don't tell me they didn't wake somebody up to find out what their story was going to be in the morning.

Anyway, it is drifting from the point of this thread... I don't think many, if any, large bloggers purposefully and knowingly ignore the truth and report incorrectly on purpose.

Bill K: a lot of speculati... (Below threshold)
-S-:

Bill K: a lot of speculation you write, based upon a lot of imagined possibilities.

Why not just write about Kerry's Plan to Euthanise Seniors? It's a possibility, after all. I bet the Democrats could come up with the Plan in several hours, much less overnight.

Bill K,.......I do... (Below threshold)
Steel Turman:

Bill K,

.......I don't think many, if any, large bloggers purposefully and knowingly ignore the truth and report incorrectly on purpose....

Your planet sounds so nice. On my planet there
are 'large bloggers' who actually DISTORT the
truth to suit their own ends. I won't bother to
list them as their dishonesty is obvious to the
most casual observer. But could you please fwd
visa requirements to enable my visit? And any
brochures that might make my vacation in La La
Land more stultifying would be greatly appreciated.




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