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A Puppetgate Primer

[Ok so you can see I just landed on "puppetgate." I hate it, but by golly you can't have a scandal without a catchy name that ends in gate so that's what I'm going with.]

Multiple people have asked me to explain what "Kerry worked for the commies" stories mean. The stories are somewhat poorly written and assume you don't mind digging thru the documents. That makes it hard for some people to wrap their minds around. I don't want to mention names (Boyd) because I don't want to embarrass anyone (Boyd) but some people (Boyd*) can't figure it out. So here it is in English.

It has long been known that John Kerry traveled to Paris to meet with North Vietnamese Communists. Like so many things in Kerry's life, there are multiple stories about how he got there. Kerry has claimed he was in Paris for his Honeymoon when he met with the communists. That claim is weakened by the fact that his own autobiography says he spent his Honeymoon in Jamaica.

However he got there, the travel arrangements were not near as important as why he was meeting with the enemy during a time of war. He was, after all, still in the Navy. (reserves by then?) Kerry has claimed he met them to discuss the conditions of the POWs. He has also claimed at one point he was trying to broker a peace deal.

But the true reason Kerry met with the communists was never clear, though many have speculated. Speculation increased when it was recently learned that John Kerry's picture is in a North Vietnamese museum with a caption explaining how he helped the communists win the war. One speculation was that Kerry met with the commies and he coordinated his actions as leader of the VVAW with them. But there was no proof.

Enter the The Virtual Vietnam Archive. I'm going to make another post about it later, but they have over 20 millions records from the Vietnam era, over 1 million of them are in a full text searchable database. Someone from the Swiftvets did some digging and found what appears to be a document explaining what Kerry was doing in Paris. It was a document captured in 1971 from enemy sources. The document was a summation of the anti-war efforts prepared by the North Vietnamese, for the North Vietnamese and states in part:

The spontaneous antiwar movements in the US have received assistance and guidance from the friendly ((VC/NVN)) delegations at the Paris Peace Talks.

The text in double parentheses was added by the translators for context in 1971. VC/NVN, of course, means Viet Cong and North Vietnamese government.

What this says is that Kerry received "assistance and guidance" from the communists while he was in Paris. Essentially, it says Kerry was working with them. Other documents in the stories support a damning picture but for this post, I'm sticking to the "smoking gun" document.

Determining the legitimacy of this statement is not a complicated as it sounds.

You have to answer a few questions:

Are the documents legit?
The answer is yes. I'll post more later about this. But they are unquestionably legit.

Are they being interpreted correctly or are they being spun.
Well, assuming the "Paris Peace Talks" means the meetings with Kerry, I can't see how it to be taken any other way.

Are these documents "real but false" (as opposed to 'fake but true')
The argument will undoubtedly be put forward that whoever wrote this back in '71 was lying. There is no evidence of that in any way and the level of detail in the documents and the way they dovetail with other knows facts make a strong case against that.

This document is the cornerstone of the piece. There are other documents that seem to confirm he did as he was told. If you want to know the rest of the story, read this (slowly) and it will become quite clear.

The larger question here, is whether this is proof Kerry was working for the communists. Speaking legalistically it would hardly be enough evidence in a court of law to get a conviction. BUT it would indeed be enough evidence for a judge to order a search warrant.

And that is where, I think, we are. To bring my analogy into the political world, a "search warrant" involves a reporter making a few calls and asking the candidate to confirm or deny things.

To date, not a single reporter other than the NY Post has called the folks at the Virtual Vietnam Archive and not a single reporter has asked the Kerry campaign to confirm or deny this. An odd fact indeed considering that same media is running the "Bush AWOL" story for the 7th generation this week.

[*And Boyd, I knew you had a sense of humor. Sorry for making you my stooge -oh pun intended. LOL You were by far not the only one confused. ]


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Comments (27)

Just confirms my belief tha... (Below threshold)
Jim:

Just confirms my belief that Kerry is Anti-American and Anti-Military. His actions in 1971 are being replicated today when he's attacking the US military for not safeguarding El-Qaaga ammo dump, even without knowing what was there and where it went to (or when, for the matter). I just finished an article for a magazine on how police officers are blasting Kerry for misusing them to score points with minorities such as Muslims. This is a political animal with no shame or conscience. He's a classic sociopath. And he's a traitor. YES, I SAID IT, HE'S A TRAITOR.

The spontaneous antiwar ... (Below threshold)
mark buehner:

The spontaneous antiwar movements in the US have received assistance and guidance from the friendly ((VC/NVN)) delegations at the Paris Peace Talks.


"What this says is that Kerry received "assistance and guidance" from the communists while he was in Paris. Essentially, it says Kerry was working with them."


I dont think that logic is particularly bullet proof. All this says is that the movement received guidance, which certainly doesnt mean every member of the anti-war movement. Didnt others meet with the NV in Paris? This is an extremely serious charge. It must have extremeley specific evidence. No question Kerry was reckless and wrong to meet the NV, but that doesnt mean he took their marching orders, which without question is treason.

At this point, we find ours... (Below threshold)
-S-:

At this point, we find ourselves in a war of information: the left has the majority of the media available in full attack mode, and they do so enjoy protecting and covering for Kerry. It's "America" and that means everyone else that/who they don't like.

I guess it's time to stop avoiding the terms and just recognize it for what it is: a real war using networks of information and presses and communications projects to lob the artillery.

An aspect of the liberal/Kerry/DNC propoganda war effort on the United States is that they have managed to manipulate SOME moderate voters into accepting Kerry's "protests" as the "someone had to ask the questions" discharge. People are not informed as to the extent and treachery of what Kerry did, nor what they're continually being told or not told as to what he did and is still underway.

That a lot of Europeans are now swayed into accepting the same line of thinking is to me an indication of resentment to and about American capitalism (Europe would prefer to dominate or lead the heap, resents American capitalism that doesn't answer to the European desire to lead the heap), and dedication to communism-ala-modern-socialism/whatever they want to call it.

Kerry and Kennedy in the Senate are the leaders of the push to socialize toward communism, if not to enforce communism itself...and I think what we see today is the fomenting of the communist and pro-communist sentiment that's been brewing through our American public school systems for the last thirty years. They were just suppressed in media a tad during Reagan's two terms, but have returned to the forefront full blown.

Not like they represent the heart of the United States, but it sure is an informational war.

If this ever does reach the... (Below threshold)
Bill:

If this ever does reach the MSM levels, you know what the next thing out of the liberal mouths will be. Can you say McCarthyism?

Don't get so worked up abou... (Below threshold)
Tom:

Don't get so worked up about something you read on the web. Breathe deeply, get away from the computer and go for a walk. Enjoy the beautiful autumn. Maybe go to the movies and see Team America (hey, Michael Moore dies in it!). You will be voting in a few days and then it will all be over. There will be a winner and a loser(eventually) and the republic will continue. There will still be a House and Senate and Supreme Court. Rush will still be on the air, as will Bill O'Reilly, Ann Coulter, Dennis Miller, Sean and his liberal puching bag wimp sidekick what's his name, et al ad nauseum. It will be warm and friendly and self serving and righteous.

Now, I will conduct a test to see if my post will get bounced:
Bush is a political animal with no shame or conscience. He's a classic sociopath. And he's a traitor. YES, I SAID IT, HE'S A TRAITOR.

No worries, Paul, I've got ... (Below threshold)
Boyd:

No worries, Paul, I've got a much thicker skin than that...you twit. :)

While the documents don't s... (Below threshold)
lyle:

While the documents don't specifically mention Vietnam Veterans Against the War, they do prominently mention the People's Committee for Peace and Justice. PCPJ was Al Hubbard's group, the group that spawned VVAW. The anti-war intel contained in the documents appears to come from PCPJ sources, and the protests they celebrate are VVAW protests.

Hubbard sponsored John Kerry for membership in VVAW and backed him for leadership. If the North Vietnamese documents are about any organization, they are about Vietnam Veterans Against the War. If they were providing 'assistance and guidance' to any American activists, the activists were Hubbard and Kerry.

Paul As a ventriloqu... (Below threshold)
MahaRichie:

Paul
As a ventriloquist,I agree with your choice of my suggestion of 'puppetgate'.
Kerry is easily maneuvered to say the words and thoughts of others.To wit:Clinton and his band of "Clintonistas'.
The Senator has no backbone or personal conviction.To have a President that could be shaped and manipulated is truly a nightmare that would be davastating for America.
I hope and pray that this does not occur.

Traitor? Bush a traitor? I ... (Below threshold)
Jim:

Traitor? Bush a traitor? I don't think so. I never heard him claim thousands of soldiers are war criminals who committed atrocities. I don't recall Bush meeting with North Vietnamese agents in Paris. I don't see any evidence of Bush attending meetings where they contemplated assassination of political leaders. I'm voting for a man whom military and law enforcement support overwhelmingly. I would never vote for a man who'd shoot an innocent animal to garner a few votes. A man supported by Liberal-Left wackos who lie. Yeah, I said it -- the entire Liberal-Left phiolosophy is founded on a lies.

I know Tom is just being cute in that Liberal girlie-man sort of way.

My comments to the earlier ... (Below threshold)
Boyd:

My comments to the earlier thread were the first steps in playing devil's advocate, and now I'll continue.

Mark is almost right in his comments, but not completely because he didn't go far enough. You've got, at best, a circumstantial case similar to the moonbat screeches about 1LT Bush being AWOL.

The fundamental flaw in your argument is assuming that the Paris Peace Talks refers to meeting with Kerry. Nope, not at all. You may be too young to remember, but the US, South Vietnam, North Vietnam and the Soviet Union met in Paris for literally years, trying to find a diplomatic resolution to the Vietnam War.

That's why Kerry went to Paris to meet with them — they were already there. And while I agree with you that Kerry illegally and traitorously consorted with the enemy, this document sheds no significant light on that issue. There's nothing there that indicates Kerry represented "(t)he spontaneous antiwar movements in the US" who "received assistance and guidance from the friendly ((VC/NVN)) delegations at the Paris Peace Talks."

Sure, it makes sense, and I agree that this sentence, at least in part, probably points to Kerry. But that's far from enough to get any political mileage out of it. Kerry's post-Vietnam (at least for him) actions have already been "factored into the market." I disagree that there's anything here to make any political hay out of.

Oh, and to respond to your "reserves" question, I'm pretty sure that Kerry was a reservist throughout his time in the Navy. Although he obviously spent time on active duty, he was always in the Navy Reserves, I believe.

Even if Kerry wins the elec... (Below threshold)
Jim:

Even if Kerry wins the election, there is a silver lining: Hillary's presidential aspirations will be finished. By 2012 she will look and sound more like an old, hysterical biddie than she does now. Even in 2012, a Vice President Edwards will probably garner his party's nomination. So, if Kerry gets the nod on November 2, Hillary can forget about another President Clinton in the White House.

The documents also show how... (Below threshold)

The documents also show how a core group of communist idiologists were able to infiltrate and dupe college students and left thinking groups, such as academia and the press, to their own ends. These communist propagandists were enormously successful in whipping up and fomenting the anti-war movement. We were defeated in Vietnam from within the borders of our own country. Hanoi John is at it again.

Oh, tough guy, eh? Why, I o... (Below threshold)
Tom:

Oh, tough guy, eh? Why, I oughta...girlie man, eh..ha! take that..and that! ha, let's see you pick up yer teeth with a broken hand, eh? Callin' yer friend Big Bill O'Reilly to help eh? Well, he's too busy doin' the knuckle shuffle to spare a hand for you, bwahahah. BTW, you're not Lt. Jim Dangle from Reno by any chance? You did mention law enforcement.

John Kerry, the war hero --... (Below threshold)
Jim:

John Kerry, the war hero -- no goose is safe in America. Did the media report whether or not Kerry shot the goose in the back? I've been led to believe Kerry's a back-shooter. Never trust a Lib behind you -- for a number of reasons. LOL.

Well, he dusted more commie... (Below threshold)
Tom:

Well, he dusted more commie scum than flyboy even fantasised about. And if some guy has a rocket launcher, I'd wouldn't get picky about where I shot him. Suddenly we have standards. Do they know this in Irag? "The insurgent with the RPG must be standing and facing you before you use deadly force'.

Wait, I'm psychic and I know how this will be answered on this forum. "When Kerry is president he will flip flop on his own position on back shooting and make this a rule of engagement...with the UN". Tell Karl so he can fit it in the speech.

'..I wouldn't", sorry...</p... (Below threshold)
Tom:

'..I wouldn't", sorry...

Great honeymoon... "Sweethe... (Below threshold)
chriss:

Great honeymoon... "Sweetheart, hold that thought. Why don't you slip into something more comfortable while step out, meet with some guys and betray my country. I'll be back before you can say Ho Chi Minh. Oh, and while I'm out can you take care of the hotel bill? I seem to have spent my allowance already."

Note: Since this story has ... (Below threshold)
Brian682:

Note: Since this story has broke JFK has not done any interviews.

This just in: Kerry Campaig... (Below threshold)
Jim:

This just in: Kerry Campaign freaking out in New Jersey: today's Quinnippac poll shows Bush 46% Kerry 46%. Kerry once led Bush by 11 percent according to Quinnippac. This means that a state Kerry & Company thought was a solid Dem stronghold has gone south. Jersey was doubtful for awhile, but now it's either candidate's.

Good post, and the 'search ... (Below threshold)

Good post, and the 'search warrant' analogy is good. I remain skeptical that JFK needed guidance from the NV/VC. I don't need guidance to Wendy's everyday, yet there I am eating a Double w/ cheese value meal everyday--all this and without Dave Thomas telling me to do it!!

- Whatever "new information... (Below threshold)

- Whatever "new information" HanoiGate does or does not contain is moot. Unless something changes radically the MSM is digging in its heels and will continue to ignore this story....

- The MSM is salivating at the idea of having motor mouth Teresa in the White House. Headlines everyday and lots of employment for everybody....

- They're not concerned about having a left wing anti-war socialist in the presidency because they believe he will be largely ineffective with a Republican controlled congress. This is very self-serving. I don't think they understand the dangers of having a pacifist running the country in a time of war, no matter that the enemy is distributed and asymetricly inclined....

- But hey.... whats a few more attacks and losses of 3 or 4 thousand people at a time when you can double circulation...

- Some people in this country just do not understand or believe the threat we're under. There will always be people that believe in the "siege" mentality approach of hunkering down and "meeting the enemy at the bulkwerks"....

- Never mind that this approach has failed so many times in history you could fill a library with the names of the people who were sitting saying prayers for their enemy just before the front door was kicked in and their throats were cut. You just can't make some people face the bitter truth of this world sometimes....

There's a SECOND meeting wi... (Below threshold)

There's a SECOND meeting with the NVN that Kerry has always denied but the documents now confirm.

The "honeymoon" meeting ocurred 9 months before the Senate testimony. The FBI believes the documents are related to a second meeting, perhaps as late as April (Kerry appeared in May before the Senate Foriegn Rel. Comm) during which Kerry met with "Madame Binh", a Cong negotiator.

FBI says that Kerry planned a third meeting sometime in Nov. but had quit VVAW by that time (he saw his political career going down the toilet after that KC meeting where they talked about assasinations).

No question in my mind...he's a traitor.

FBI files have Al Hubbard l... (Below threshold)
V.:

FBI files have Al Hubbard linked with Kerry and others. It's undeniable. Kerry was the mouthpiece for VVAW. The "movement" was the Anti-War groups backed by communists in Soviet Union, Hanoi and US.

The main role, taken by LTJG Kerry, was visable for one by his testimony in the Senate. That testimony was proven a long time ago to be bogus, lies and completely destructive to our military, POWs and to S. Vietnam. FBI files, tapes and documents further explain his role. Good ole "swimmin" Ted Kennedy is also linked through documentation.

When this story was first c... (Below threshold)

When this story was first coming out, I was skeptical about the documents. Particularly, I was interested in how secure the electronic database was, and how closely the physical documents are guarded.

I e-mailed the assistant director or the archive and was quite impressed with the security measures that he described in his reply.

Boyd, please reread my "sea... (Below threshold)
Paul:

Boyd, please reread my "search warrant" part.

The media could at least call the archives.

Here are a couple links on ... (Below threshold)
Brenda Craig:

Here are a couple links on some research to show the same thing going on today with the passing of the torch to the IVAW, same plan with lot of the same players. Some things never change.


http://www2.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12535

http://www2.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10587

Regarding your "search warr... (Below threshold)
Boyd:

Regarding your "search warrant" analogy, we don't disagree. I'm just saying that these documents themselves don't tell us anything significant that we didn't already know.




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