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The duties of the defeated

A couple days ago I made a peace offering to supporters of Senator Kerry -- I gave them the chance to invest in the success of our country after the re-election of President Bush. No one has taken me up on my wager thus far (which is still open -- please, go check it out), but one response outraged me.

Simon, over The Blogging Of The President, had previously taken my idea of inviting one's opponents to explain just why they are supporting their guy, free of harassment and recriminations, and used it on their site. I thought he did a pretty good job of moderating the responses (better than I did), and his improvements on my initial idea were excellent.

But when I made my offering, Simon took every shred of goodwill he had earned with me and pissed it right down the toilet. He linked my offer with an "An Open Letter to Our New Government," where he made threats of personal recriminations and embarassments to any and all Republican officials who don't vote the way he wants them to vote. I went in and deleted his links and trackbacks because I didn't like him poisoning my well, but if you're interested, you can find that piece of his easily enough. I won't help you.

Now, I've always believed that it is the duty of a winner in any contest to reach out a hand of friendship to the defeated, to put the contest behind them and move forward. I did that above. President Bush and Senator Kerry did that last Wednesday.

But the defeated has a duty, too. It's to graciously accept defeat, accept the hand of the winner, and MOVE ON. Otherwise, you risk being perceived (and rightfully so) as a whiny, pathetic little loser.

Over at BOP, they're not interested in moving on. This weekend seems devoted to re-interpreting and re-drawing maps, re-analyzing the results, re-casting the surveys until they find some pathetic stretch of imagination that denies the undeniable fact that THEY LOST. The keep demanding that President Bush disregard the 52% of Americans who voted for him and instead cater to the desires of the 47% who didn't. And the ones most loudly proclaiming these demands are those who under no circumstances would give him any shred of credit or respect.

I've tried to be a gracious winner, and I'm keeping my offer open for anyone truly interested in getting past the bitterness of the campaign. But the Simons and all the other embittered losers of this world can kiss my ass. When I hold out my hand in friendship, nobody gets to shit in it more than once.

J.


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Comments (49)

Amen, brother. I just hope ... (Below threshold)

Amen, brother. I just hope they don't realize that if they keep up like this, they'll lose next time, too.

It's interesting to watch t... (Below threshold)

It's interesting to watch the self-destruction of the liberal ideologues in the face of their successive defeats since 1994. Rather than re-evaluate and repackage their ideology into a new form as Gingrinch did so brilliantly using the "Contract With America" concept or pre-empting the opposition's successful ideas as Clinton did with his equally brilliant strategy of "triangulation," post-Kerry liberals instead appear to be retrenching to the far left behind Michael Moore, George Soros and the like. This strategy will only push them farther from power until new leadership moves them back toward the center (think Hillary; while she's undeniably a socialist, she's also undeniably a pragmatist above all else).

As reported on Fox News Cha... (Below threshold)
Jim:

As reported on Fox News Channel, Barbara Streisand, Michael Moore and Ben Afleck had press conference declaring they were the face of the new Democrat Party. Wow, can these jerks make it any easier?

Jay, you're a better man than I. Personally, I say to my opponents on the left, "Eat Sh*t!"

It's amazing how the "real... (Below threshold)
alcibiades:

It's amazing how the "reality based community" totally can't deal with reality now.

Maybe if they had read something during the course of the election that informed them accurately about the other side, as opposed to the MSM which merely affirmed all their instincts, they would have realized they had an awfully good chance of losing the election. And pre-conditioned themselves to it.

I would be much more gracio... (Below threshold)
dB:

I would be much more gracious if they would just condemn the violence againgst Karen Hughes and Ann Coulter. The Democratic party is a cesspool (sp) of outrageous behavior and until they begin to act civil (and not just speak civil), I see no need to reach out to them.

dB

Republicans / conservatives... (Below threshold)
Dan:

Republicans / conservatives / whatever - never seem to get it. Everytime we win we start looking around to reach out, compromise some, whatever - and it always results in that very thing coming back to bite us in the butt. Of course, I'm speaking politically, and you issue is slightly different, but it is the same concept.

I made a short reference to this in a recent post, not enough on topic to link - but Republicans struggle as much or more with being in the majority, as the dems do with the reverse.

That's what conservatives should be thinking and tlaking about now - how do we become an effective majority - not simply over-analyzing the dems and their situation.

Jay,I read a lot o... (Below threshold)

Jay,

I read a lot of Simon's posts at The Blogging of the President. And I agree with you, they are a bit immature now. It is a great web site though, and very informative.

However, keep reaching out, its our duty. The pain they are feeling is very real, and will take a *long* time to subside.

Its only been a few days since the election, and it will take a while to get over it and move on.

Anyway, great web site here, keep up the good work :)

The issue is not that we do... (Below threshold)
Dave:

The issue is not that we do not think that GWB should not do things for the 52% that voted for him. That is fine, but GWB should realize that the coalition that voted for him voted for him for a variety of reasons and that he is the President of all the people not 52% of the people.

The biggest reason they voted for him is the terrorism argument - he won that argument and John Kerry lost that argument. So GWB should definitely fight the war on terror his way and I hope he is right.

That was the primary reason he was elected. And of all the things he promised that was by far the biggest promise - to keep us safe from terrorists.

So it is simply a matter of focus. Keep your eye on the "terrorism ball" and for the other things, that is fine we can have a debate in congress over the other proposals.

And this whole thing about winning and losing is fine rhetoric but in the end we need to come together as one United States of America and find common ground in the middle whoever is elected.

In the end this country is not conservative or liberal it is moderate country with a minority of conservatives and liberals. Small shifts can have very large effects on the balance of power briefly. If 70,000 people voted for John Kerry in Ohio instead of GWB I would be saying the same things about John Kerry, he would need to govern from the middle so we can have a unified country.

Dave (the other one)

Jay,I'm glad to se... (Below threshold)
Jim from New Jersey:

Jay,

I'm glad to see you observing Churchill's aphorism about being magnanimous in victory. I don't recall him saying anything about kvetching turd in defeat.

Everytime I have a flashback from this long campaign, I feel like a battle scarred veteran. Moore, Soros, Hollywood, the MSM, Kerry himself, have truly soured me to their party and ideology. My interest in keeping their hands off the levers of power is now so intense, I will no longer confine myself to voting. Money and volunteering will be abundant in the next cycle.

This is a truly perverted bunch of people, to attack a flawed but fundamentally decent man the way they did.

My only final concern is becoming like them, living off hatred and condescension.

J.,I know how you ... (Below threshold)

J.,

I know how you feel, bro. On my own blog I am very partisan, but in my real life where I have to deal with people who disagree with me it is a different story and I try to understand and tolerate them as graciously as possible.

I took Tuesday off for a number of reasons. Here in Seattle the office ship is titled on a dramatic angle to the left, so I did not want to see the depressed looks on everyone's faces as things rolled in. But I also went for a walk that day and ran into Kerry sign holders. I was upfront with them about my political leanings and whom I had casted my ballot for, but sincerely wished them luck and shook their hands in an effort at decency and comradery. They were dumbfounded. Some said they appreciated it, but nobody recipricated with a "good luck" or "best to you too". That's when I knew FOR SURE there were issues on the left they will have a very, very hard time to get over.

As well (if you remember the other day when I warned against your wager because of my experience with one of them) I had sent an email to a buddy who is liberal to the core that I believe was very gracious. I indicated I had no desire to gloat (and I sincerely did not) because I was overwhelmed with pride on how the American people had chosen. I let him know I understood he did not share in that sense of pride, but that he can be reassured that we did not plan on taking his SS away or draft his nephews. I ended by wishing him the best and a great 4 years. This is what I got in return (I'm linking and if you think it is whoring don't hesitate to erase it):

Liberal Buddy checks in

The issue is not that we do... (Below threshold)
Dave:

The issue is not that we do not think that GWB should not do things for the 52% that voted for him. That is fine, but GWB should realize that the coalition that voted for him voted for him for a variety of reasons and that he is the President of all the people not 52% of the people.

The biggest reason they voted for him is the terrorism argument - he won that argument and John Kerry lost that argument. So GWB should definitely fight the war on terror his way and I hope he is right.

That was the primary reason he was elected. And of all the things he promised that was by far the biggest promise - to keep us safe from terrorists.

So it is simply a matter of focus. Keep your eye on the "terrorism ball" and for the other things, that is fine we can have a debate in congress over the other proposals.

And this whole thing about winning and losing is fine rhetoric but in the end we need to come together as one United States of America and find common ground in the middle whoever is elected.

In the end this country is not conservative or liberal it is moderate country with a minority of conservatives and liberals. Small shifts can have very large effects on the balance of power briefly. If 70,000 people voted for John Kerry in Ohio instead of GWB I would be saying the same things about John Kerry, he would need to govern from the middle so we can have a unified country.

Dave (the other one)

Of course, we must realize ... (Below threshold)
Steve L.:

Of course, we must realize that these are the same people that call Republicans "hateful." The level of hypocrisy in this matter is very high on thier parts.

JLearning to be a ... (Below threshold)
Eric Y:

J

Learning to be a gracious loser allows people to be come winners.

Democratcs have a long way to go before they understand how to be good losers. Only then will they be able to begin winning at the polls. The Democrats ruled this country for many years and are still coming to terms with the Republican Ascendancy.

My prediction, the democrats will continue to be the minority party for many years to come. Eventually they'll adjust to reality and we'll see a large shift in power - but that will take many, many, many years.

Dave, the problem with your... (Below threshold)

Dave, the problem with your perspective is that we have a Congress in which the minority view is to be represented. The presidency is held by a single person for a reason: leadership.

We've had several presidents in my lifetime elected with less popular support than George W. Bush (and I include 2000 as well as 2004). The ones who were most effective in getting things done were those who expected the losing side to come along and play an active role in moving forward.

Those who let the losing side hold them back, end up as failures.

Bush knows this. It's time his detractors admit it too, and either get on the train or get left at the station.

The liberals need to quit a... (Below threshold)
Omni:

The liberals need to quit acting like jilted lovers, going over and over everything that happened trying to figure out how they ended up on the losing end of things.

They're STILL claiming that Bush did NOT get more votes, that 500 kinds of trickery and treachery occurred to magically turn votes for Kerry into votes for the president; they'll go to any level of ridiculousness to deny that their vision of how things should be does NOT represent the majority of Americans.

Best example of this I've r... (Below threshold)
dulce:

Best example of this I've read today, from an (ostensibly non-political) forum I frequent:

"If anyone is to blame for keeping the anamosity going it's Bush himself. How rude is it to gloat and say the majority has spoken.
What about the 48.5% of the people that didn't vote for him?"

LOL!!


Democrats,Liberals,Progress... (Below threshold)
MahaRichie:

Democrats,Liberals,Progressives,Populist's:Whatever the hell you would like to be called 'today';Lend me your one track ears.Go ahead,keep depending on the Hollyweirdo's,Rocknuts,Hip hop punks&Professorial pimps etc.for your legitmazation,then you will continue in a downward vortex,within the latrine of your own creation.YOU LOST! YOU ARE 'BIGTIME' LOSERS! YOU DESERVE YOUR FATE! YOU DESERVE NO PITY! YOU MADE YOUR BED AND NOW YOU MUST LIE IN IT(probably for a long time).
You are not in any way relevant to or related to the respectable Democratic party of the 1940's thru early 1960's.YOU ARE A DISGRACE TO AMERICA! So unless you are willing to transform yourselve's into a once again respectable National Party,PLEASE JUST SHUT UP, PACK YOUR BAGS AND GET THE HELL OUT OF THIS GREAT LAND.

Well, I did not spit in you... (Below threshold)

Well, I did not spit in your hand Jay, I personally felt that competition was not the way to accomplish your goals. I am trying to build bridges at ISOU by offering guest blogging spots to conservatives, and encouraging discussion. While it is still early in the process, I think it has proven successful so far. I have had Boyd from Texas Native guest blog, and have invited others. The discussions have been both civil an enlightening. While I have seen questions raised about electronic voting, those questions are logical ones, based on real, documented issues, not some left wing fantasy. I personally do not see them deligitimizing the election, but the questions need to be raised in a democracy and they need to be answered.
What I see a lot of from the Right is Shut the Fuck up and take your medicine, that wont solve the problem either. And I sure as hell dont see any Conservative Blogs inviting me or any other Liberal blogger to guest blog.

The biggest and most import... (Below threshold)
bullwinkle:

The biggest and most important duty of John Kerry now is for him to share his plan to fight a smarter, better war. His supporters accepted that he had one even though he never elaborated on it. If he did and didn't share it before that could be put off to allowing our soldiers to die to get himself elected, perfectly acceptable on the left. Election is out of the question now and he still hasn't come forward with that mysterious plan. Surely his supporters can't accept four more years of unnecessary loss of lives because they want to win so bad in 2008, can they?

Check this out (found out a... (Below threshold)

Check this out (found out about it from Blogs for Bush.com)

Poll question: What is more depressing . . 9/11/01 or 11/3/04?



Note, the link itself goes ... (Below threshold)

Note, the link itself goes to a bulliten board for Democratic Underground

David, I'm sorry I didn't s... (Below threshold)
Jay Tea:

David, I'm sorry I didn't spell it out. You acknowledged my offer and graciously declined, which I respected. You and I have disagreed, most recently about a certain video you cited on your web site, but I respect you.

No, it wasn't you or (as far as I know) anyone from the PBA who pissed me off. It was Simon and Simon alone who incurred my wrath.

The idea of the wager was to promote a little reconciling, with what I considered a typical "Jay Tea" signature twist. I'm sorry no one's taken me up on it -- I'd already set aside some money in hopes of losing, and started writing a couple embarassing anecdotes as well. Oh, well...

J.

The video was a parody, I p... (Below threshold)

The video was a parody, I probably did a poor job of setting it up. But I am still down to do whatever I can to promote discussion and lowering the temperature. So if you come up with anything else, let me know, and I will have your back on it. To everyone else, I understand your reactions, but one thing I learned as a child, two wrongs dont make a right, and the person who shows the most class in victory or defeat is the real winner. You will not look better by throwing all Liberals into the same category becuase you dissagree with a few or feel they are being tacky. Those who win my respect are thos who manage to be above the idiotic one upmanship.

So, David, and I mean this ... (Below threshold)
Jay Tea:

So, David, and I mean this seriously: what would it take to get you to get past your despair and move towards optimism (or at least ease your pessimism) about our country's future? I made one offer that didn't work for you...

One thing is right off the table, though. I ain't apologizing for winning -- no more than you would were the tables reversed.

To quote Lyndon Johnson's favorite Bible verse: "Come, let us reason together."

J.

J.: I think that you made ... (Below threshold)
-S-:

J.: I think that you made great efforts and no one enjoys being rebuffed, much less ridiculed, such that suffice it to conclude here, I empathize with your experience and can fully understand and relate to your interpretations as you've written here.

About the overview issues as many here have contributed points to and about, Democrats don't realize that the very behaviors they are today/at present promoting are exactly why they lost and why voters were and are disillusioned -- even repelled -- by "today's Democratic Party." That Streisand, Moore and Afleck represent them is just more emphasis on that point and it ensures that there isn't anything there that most people can relate to.

I mean, Streisand wore the kitchen drapes or something similar to the Emmy's, whatever it was. Moore's not someone the average teenager or even child exemplifies as a hero or figurehead, much less the average adult voter finding him as being someone who neither makes sense nor is encouraging as leader material. Afleck is a beautiful man, I agree, but his politics, as yet undefined beyond the fact that he makes great publicity in the process, says lovely things, looks great on stage, wins at poker, all that ... an all'round great guy but do people consider him a sensible statement in personna as to what characterises leadership? Well, I dunno about that, academically, morally, specifically.

Another thing is that Democrats, "today's Democrat," is commonly and persistently someone such as Jay has described here: someone who ridicules others online, embarrasses other humans for purposes of grandiosity through exaggerations and worse...not someone you can rely upon to comingle with, not someone most people would ever evaluate as being peer.

Which is all what most Democrats don't get. They continue on their losing course because they bahave as losers -- with Schwarzenegger, I completely agree about that.

I was just listening to, of all the dreaded persons to the Left, Rev. Jerry Falwell on FOX, making a brief commentary on a news program as asked to do, and he said that he was raised a Democrat, his father was "a yellow dog Democrat," and other things, and that he'd changed to the Republican Party because of issues of values, very specific values.

Which is the experienc for many people, particularly those with religious beliefs, which is my own experience, such that those of us who once tried to participate among "today's Democrats" were repulsed, were repelled, just could not endorse or support or even become enthusiastic about a course of behaviors and general personality by Party that we moved to voting as Republicans, and are quite pleased with the change (although, in my case, as I've shared before, I was a Republican from registration on through my lifetime, although worked among many of the most strident liberals in media, remained a Republican throughout that, changed to Democrat only during Clinton years, but changed back after Clinton, so my voter experience as a Democrat was brief, only a few years in spanse, although my working experiences are almost exclusively limited to interacting with some of the most liberal of liberals in the U.S., and my voting preferences never were an issue as a conservative person).

I'm just saying here that "today's Democrat" is extremely and emotionally left wing, emotionally extreme, nearly and often beyond reliable responses such that it indicates untrustworthiness...a person who betrays people for personal gain isn't someone others can and do rely on over time, is what I'm saying and Jay's experience as related here is very parallel to what mine was during last year, when trying to interact with Democrats in general.

I think that, once "today's Democrats" discover that a person has religious values and commitments, that you therefore become an enemy to them, because most of "today's Democrats" despise and abhor, particularly, Christians and Christian ethics, values, beliefs. I don't know why that is but it is what it is.

People need to stop skirting this issue because that's the heart of what separates most people from party to party, and what motivates many among who are today's Democrats, very left wing liberals who disdain any reference in public mention, much less government, to Christianity.

We've made great progress in our nation and culture with Judaism -- but about Christians, the Left today just really has a problem with their own intolerance of religious freedom. And yet, instead, tries to emphasize everyone else's problem, while ignoring the plank of intolerance in their own eyes.

Returning to the issue of Kerry, he well illustrated to many people and still does just how hypocritical a person most Democrat "leaders" are: they rely on their religious labels as evidence of correctness and yet they defy and refuse to endorse the actual religious values and requirements necessary to actually exemplify that faith, that association. And that equates with hypocrisy. People see it and perceive it very easily.

It isn't that people among politics are required to be one faith or another, but that there is tolerance, sincerity and consistency in personality and emotions. Those things just no longer exist among many Democrats and that's why they are driving people away from their Party to alternatives. People just don't consider them leaders, nor the basis upon which to lead America. Some are, but on average, most are not.

But, they do yell a lot. And harass anyone/everyone who dares to speak out in 'defiance' of the liberal insistence...I just find the entire social community among Democrats to be so unpleasant as to need to find an exit as quickly as possible, when and if I'm associating. That's my story, as one voter. Like it or not, that's it.

Honestly... I am not in des... (Below threshold)

Honestly... I am not in despair, but my optimism will be there when I see what direction the country is taking, and if The President does make an effort to work in a bipartisan fashion. But like I said, I would be glad to work with you on some bi partisan initiative, like doing something for our troops, or even better, their families. Anything that crosses party lines and enables us to work together.

I also open the guest blogger spot to you if you like. And no I dont expect you to appologize for winning.

Dave's post is emblematic o... (Below threshold)

Dave's post is emblematic of the phenomenon I described. Rather than adjust their views, the Left waits for this movement or that demographic trend to bring them back to power, apparently still failing to notice after 10 years that the trend is moving against them: since 1994 no electorate has seen fit to give Dems the majority of votes for either of the elected branches, and during that time Republicans control has grown in almost every election, cuminating in the curent peak.

It's as if the crew of the Titanic were to keep steering the ship into new icebergs even as they sank, each time saying "This time, things will be different!"

I think we should always lo... (Below threshold)
Jim:

I think we should always look to encourage friendships with the Liberal and Leftists. Personally, I have friends who are liberals. I just don't want them in charge.

-S-, many on the Left hate ... (Below threshold)
Jim:

-S-, many on the Left hate Christians and observant Jews for the same reason Communists hated religion.

I won't be taking you up on... (Below threshold)

I won't be taking you up on the bet for a good reason -- I don't doubt that Bush can do a good job of holding off major disaster for at least the near future. I just disagree with his methods. But I do agree that it's time to find some sort of common ground. Like it or not, George W. Bush is our president, and it's time to work with his administration.

Yes, Jim, I agree with that... (Below threshold)
-S-:

Yes, Jim, I agree with that. I realize that, but the Left just never sees it's own intolerance, insisting instead, intolerantly, on their intolerance as standard.

Religious intolerance is the standard of the Democrats. Even among and by those who fancy themselves "religous" among the left, which only serves to certify their hypocrisy in the eyes of others and then again, I see Party mantra that supplants religiousity, religious principle. Greg Palast, Lanny Davis, Jesse Jackson, Kerry, too...people like that use a sorta falst religious dedication to and about being a Democrat, that defies passing the credibility test among actual religious communities.

I was reading a review of the recent Liberty Film Festival from a few weeks ago and there was this notoriously profane writer who identifies as "a Jewish Republican" and yet he writes in support of most of the Liberal social intolerance that exists in much of the entertainment industry...he prefaced his remarks as "and I'm not even a fundamentalist Christian nut" or something like that, followed by "George Bush and Dick Cheney must be the last two people on earth to not see the truth about Iraq..." and THAT guy says he's a "Jewish Republican..."

And yet, what it is is that there's a left community of perceptions in the U.S. that relies upon being socially (and politically) acceptable, "cool," in fact, trendy, someone others talk about and want to work with, a meme by the left that relies on the coolness factor as dissing Christians, as referring to Christians as some sort of horrible class of demented in our society, and everyone will laugh.

A lot of those laughing and those perpetuating that myth are Jewish. They are Jewish by race but not by faith, in what I've discovered. Atheist and agnostics but Jewish by race. Streisand is an example of that...what I can't figure out is why the Jewish people who so populate our entertainment industry, who have experienced what it is to be able to live in a country that tolerates religious freedoms, as to why they are so intolerant of Christians. It's a mystery to me.

But, again, I describe here persons who are agnostic and atheists, who also happen to be Jewish, because the entertainment industry and the "media" is well populated by persons of this influence. And, thus a lot of emphasis on a pro-communist, socialist measure that also happens to be quite intolerant about individual religious freedom.

And some are very pro-Castro...many of our big entertainers today really find Castro to their liking and it amazes me why and how they can. Particularly since Castro puts to death, at his will, those who oppose him in his own domain. Then there's the Hollywood set that thinks he's cool and socialist and Cuba is near paradise and...

I don't understand it. I really don't.

The point I was trying to m... (Below threshold)
-S-:

The point I was trying to make about that one writer about the Liberty Film Festival, that writer who identified as being "a Jewish Republican," and his remarks, that guy is CONSERVATIVE compared to most in and associated with Hollywood. Opinions to the left of that guy's are standard, is what I mean.

AND, Jews in Communist Russ... (Below threshold)
-S-:

AND, Jews in Communist Russia were sent to longterm Siberian "mental health" facilities because they were who they were, believed as the did. Such that, now with the community in the United States, I am mystified by the Jewish community in the entertainment industry that actually promotes communism, maligns Christians, things of that nature.

I mean, communist cultures have not been friends to the Jewish people. So I don't, at all, understand the appeal to those who populate America's entertainment industry, making today's Democratic Party something left of liberal, and working quite so feverishly to denigrate conservative America.

See this is what I dont get... (Below threshold)

See this is what I dont get Jay, someone on the Left (ME) is talking about working together and your posters just keep writing about hate from the Left. What is it, is it easier to talk about Negatives from the left than to accept that someone is reaching out that hand. Who spit in who's hand...

I actually agree with David... (Below threshold)

I actually agree with David Anderson (above).
I don't expect him to change his views, however I do expect him to change how he puts forth those views to try and appeal towards more people. And he has offered to mend some of the fences, which is more than I can say for a lot of his cohorts.

Mr. Anderson, your party ha... (Below threshold)
DaveP.:

Mr. Anderson, your party has been spitting in MY face for a long time now.

Read any of the weblogs of your fellow Democrats lately? DU? Kos? Seen what your fellow Democrat Mike Moore has had to say? Been HERE http://www.boldlygoingnowhere.net/se/2.html yet? Or HERE? http://www.zombietime.com/sf_rally_november_3_2004/

And don't try the "they aren't REALLY Democrats" copout. Your party has intimate connections with Moveon and International ANSWER, everything from shared membership to attendance and sponsorship of each other's rallies. Ever look at their affiliated organizations lists?

Us ignorant Bush voters are simply too addled to NOT treat people as if they are responsible for their own words and actions. Tell us you hate us and hate our country, we take you seriously. Tell us you no longer wish to be an American citizen because BusHitler won, we treat you as if you're telling the truth. Publicly accept aid form those who say those things, we assume that you believe them too (and with both Kerry and Osama repeating Moore and ANSWER talking points, you have very little room to deny this).

Shelter thugs who shoot into campaign offices (in two states, plus vandalization in more AND STILL COUNTING) and attempt the grossest types of physical intimidation, we assume it's becuse you approve.

Clean up your party, Mr. Anderson. Then we can talk cooperation.

First off Dave P, I am not ... (Below threshold)

First off Dave P, I am not asking you for anything. Jay is a friend of mine, and he made a post which I responded to. Dont lecture me about what someone else is doing when an asshole from the right suggessted stringing Kerry up last week. We have nuts on both sides. I dont presume to clean up my party any more than I would assume you can clean up some of the filth in yours, so please dont bother lecturing me as if the Conservative movement or the Republican Party is pure as the driven snow, Jay would not even say that. I did not come here however to argue who's party is responsibile for the most contemptable actions, I came here to respond to a friend who made a legitimate offer to try and mend some fences, which I have been doing for some time now. You want to lecture someone, go to the source and lecture those who you feel have offended you. Unlike some on the Right and Left I dont subscribe to Group Think, or share responisbility to with idiots on either side.
Now if anyone wants to talk seriously about the themes Jay raised in this post, I am open to it, but I have had about enough tonight of hypocritcal rants from people who LOVE to hate, rather than look for a reason to work together. Jay I am out, I have had just about enough ignorant self rightousness for the night.

"I have had just about enou... (Below threshold)
DaveP.:

"I have had just about enough ignorant self rightousness for the night."

Except for your own, evidently.

Like it or not, your party is judged on the faces and issues I raised. Your disavowal of your own responsibility will not make that go away. The continued aquiescence of Democratic rank-and-file in behavior such as I have mentioned above leads to its continuation- approval by silence. If there had been a groundswell of calls/letters/emails from registered Democrats protesting the negative and divisive tactics that the Kerry campaign and its hangers-on were employing, do you think they would have continued? Or would his campaign managers, responding to internal opinion polls, have shifted to a more positive tone... and probably won the Presidency? Now that the election is over, do we see people like yourself- regular voting Democrats- taking their own party to task for pursuing an obviously failed strategy of hate and bile?

If YOU don't do it, who is supposed to? If YOU as a registered Democrat voter and (I assume) donor, with a weblog where you may post your views for other people to read, aren't responsible or capable of fixing your party- or at least demanding that it be fixed- who is? Individual voices CAN change a party- if there are enough of them, they swell to a chorus.

As a Republican, I am in no mind to "move on" and make concessions only to find the same destructive and offensive methods pulled back out of storage for 2008. . Before I reach out the olive branch, I want some assurance that I can treat honorably with my defeated foe. Failing that- why bother?

As far as your moral relativity goes, can you please supply a list of DNC headquarters that were shot into, stoned, or mob-invaded by Republican partisans? Even you must admit that political violence is FAR over the edge...

Again... I did not come her... (Below threshold)

Again... I did not come here to discuss the alleged wrongdoings of either party. Was anyone convicted in those shootings? Was anyone convivted in the case of the letter in Ohio discouraging African Americans to vote, or the letter in the south that said anyone registered by the NAACP would not be able to vote? I dont believe so in either case, and in niether case was there proof that it was a Democratic or Republican operative who employed the filthy tactics. So, let me repeat myself in case you did not understand the first time, I am not interested in working with someone who is not interested in working with me. I came in response to a friends post, if you are not interested in contributing in a possitive way to Jay's suggesstion, why are you even in this discussion. This is my last word. Anyone who is interested in working together on a project to maybe support out troops or do something for the children in Iraq, or any number of other projects that we can work together on in a non partisan way, you have my address. Anyone who isnt, I have no problem with it, do your thing. But until the day I see Republicans appologizing for the misdeeds of your party, including the dirt slung on your side, I am not even thinking about debating accountability on national scale. The only person I am accountable for is David Anderson, and while I was guilty myself of contributing occassionaly to the negative atmosphere before the election, I said I would not afterward, and I have not. Nor will I appologize for my partisan stance before the election, just as I expect no one on the right to do so.

Don't lecture you Dave A? ... (Below threshold)
Jim from New Jersey:

Don't lecture you Dave A? Are you kidding me? Don't even BOTHER acting indignant here, you sound like someone who parked his rear on Pluto for the last 2 years.

Out of respect for the people who run Wizbang, I'll restrain myself. But the levels of contempt I have for your type of people has reached Everest like heights. That you would even begin drawing equivalents between both sides is a clear demonstration that you're a waste of time.

Like a victim of a good wife-beating, you served as an enabler to people who TARGET Christians, Patriots and people with standards. I'm not interested in what Marvin does with Larry, but hell if you won't poke that stick in my eye all day long. I thought that garbage was IN THE BEDROOM Dave, shouldn't it stay there? Nope, not if you enjoy parodying the simple, quaint beliefs of the country folk. Well, they spoke Dave, did you hear them?

Proving again that there's no beating you won't tolerate, you let Al Franken - an unhinged drunk on his best days - pick fights at will and gave him a pass; or how about the currency speculator with a God complex that enjoys bringing nations to the edge of a cliff - NO PROB!; or that silk hat you find yourself constantly running around trying to stuff on that jerk with the camera. Telling us how much he loves the soldiers while feeding us unflattering footage. GREAT GUY, but of course, he's just your kind of guy. I'm sure you were first in line at the theater, hope you saved the stub cause that's all you've got left.

I am truly astonished by the depravity I witnessed in this campaign. And for you to even bother flicking the brain dead caveat that both sides were guilty is something very encouraging. You are a real marvel, insistent on creating theories where no basis exists, and ignoring reality while it slaps you in the face like a hot spatula.

The "posters" you've got such a problem with are relieving a great deal of stress that built up over a very long campaign. We were treated to one fabricated theory after another about the stupid Bush and evil Cheney, all without the slightest eyebrows raised in the press. Got Word? Cause that's all you need for CBS if you hate Bush.

J is being gracious, which makes him altogether different from me at the moment. My interest in you is only in making sure your kind of people get nowhere near power. And never have I been more motivated than I am after this election.

Sympathies should be reserved for the grieving who deserve it, would you care to guess where that leaves you?

Anyone who is interested... (Below threshold)
julie:

Anyone who is interested in working together on a project to maybe support out troops or do something for the children in Iraq . . .

We have been doing those things. Where have you been? A year ago last Sept., in a Yahoo art group I belong to, someone requested donations for a toy drive for the children of Iraq. A canadian poster, objected in that it would only aid the war effort of the big bad Americans. I posted that the canadian was full of it -- it was only a toy drive. My post was deleted by the moderators bc it was "political." I said fine, then delete the canadian's post. How political can you get? They wouldn't do it. When has the left done anything to support the troops? When has the left done anything for the kids of Iraq? Talk is cheap. It will never happen. In fact I dare you to go post you ideas for projects on DU, Kos, Atrios. You will never come out alive.

Jay, it's not "Blogging of ... (Below threshold)

Jay, it's not "Blogging of the President". It hasn't been for a long time. I've been linking them at The 'Fires for some time now as "Blogging to Elect a Democrat" because that's the precise description of where they've gone the past year or more.

Back in mid 2003 I had some excellent linkbacks and comment discussions with Matt Stoller and Jay Rosen from there on an analysis of Coarsening of Internet Discourse essay I did - but not after 2004 started. Became real clear after early 2004 that the only coarsening of discourse that concerned Stoller was when it came from non-Democrats.

[And I'm pretty straightforward: I can coarsen the discourse with the best of 'em when I choose. ;)]

You're to be commended Jay, but I don't think it's going to work. My observation is that "how do we work together to analyse this loss and build a better party?" from the Left right now means "Can you tell us what we want to hear so we can disguise ourselves better four years from now?"

No. We can't tell you what you want to hear. Disguising your agenda so you can sneak it in under the radar isn't what the Democrat party needs. What the DNC needs is to reject the Kos' and the Atrios' and the Willis' and move back to the Zell Millers. And that is *NOT* what the people over at BOP News want to hear from anyone - right, left, centrist or other.

What Jim from New Jersey said, goes for me as well. Doubled over and wrapped with barbed wire. VERY nice rant, Jim. Impressive.

The DU/Kos crowd keeps call... (Below threshold)
julie:

The DU/Kos crowd keeps calling for a purge in the party. Oh, there will be a purge all right. It is amusing that they don't realize they are #1 on the hit list. Thank God, it's long overdue.

Jim, you are going to restr... (Below threshold)

Jim, you are going to restrain yourself. You got my blog address, come on over and forget all restraint, I am interested in seeing how you will somehow humiliate me with your intelligence and wit.

Many conservatives have moc... (Below threshold)
Boyd:

Many conservatives have mocked the Democrat's claim on tolerance, but I think we conservatives can often turn a blind eye to intolerance on our own side.

Hard-over conservatives need to have the same realization that the liberals need to gain: this is a Purple country. The Republicans won last week because of a better recognition and implementation of that fact.

But as the saying goes, "pride goeth before a fall." Switching now to intolerance would undermine the conservative majority position.

Conservatives who fail to recognize and acknowledge moderate Democrats are fools who would undermine our newly solidified majority. We need to step up and reaffirm that conservatives are truly the ones who embrace tolerance, and woo the liberals who are also tolerant.

As of this election the dem... (Below threshold)
avenuebalum:

As of this election the democrats have crossed the line with their incivility, intolerance, hypocrisy, bigotry, and reluctance to tame the thug left.
And so have I. I will earmark time and dollars to insure that this party never attain majority status and I urge others to do the same. The Dems threatened bookstores, publishers, television stations and churches that did not toe the pro-Kerry line. They are the real threat to our freedoms.

What are you TALKING about?... (Below threshold)
Stephen:

What are you TALKING about? I worked on the Kerry campaign, and I am a card-carrying liberal. Could some one give me an example of democrats threatening bookstores, publishers, television stations and churches?

How are we hypocrites? What give you the impression that we hate christians? (when a large number of us ARE christians) How are we bigots? WE are intolerant? Please explain how. And no straw men. Real examples.

I know a lot of liberals and democrats. People that worked on the campaign. People who would NEVER hurt anyone. They wouldn't vandalize rnc offices. And yes, a lot of campain offices on our side were vandalized too. But I don't assume that this has anything to do with the republican mainstream, because it doesn't. There are idiots and teenage boys everywhere.

I don't understand why you hate US so much. What did we do? When did we become bigots in your mind? How could you all still really, honestly believe that the press had it out for you, especially after the swift boat veterans. The media had it our for everybody, that's what they do. Most on the left feel that the media had it out for us. I don't get it. I don't think I'll ever get it. Oh, and by the way, I live in a red state.

Stephen, you don't really m... (Below threshold)
Boyd:

Stephen, you don't really mean to deny that the MSM heavily favors liberals/Democrats? I'll point you to a recent statement from Andy Rooney to support my point.

When did liberals become bigots in our minds? When they make bigoted descriptions of conservatives.

There's no shortage of lunacy on either end of the spectrum, I'll grant you that. But you have to be particularly closed-minded to ignore the copious evidence of liberal intolerance of conservatives.

For the record, I'm not denying any similar conservative intolerance of liberals. The difference being that I recognize the shortcomings of conservatives. You seem to be oblivious to the shortcomings of liberals.

WOW! The 11/3 or 9/11 link... (Below threshold)
LJD:

WOW! The 11/3 or 9/11 link is truly scary...

I have a recommendation for those who love the Jihadists....

Go kill yourselves.

You may not get 69 virgins, but then you won't have to worry about Bush any more.




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