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Troll dissection for fun and profit

A little while ago a certain troll-like entity calling himself "James" managed to latch on to me. He has taken exception to several things I have written, and has expressed his disagreement in many ways. He's called me "simplistic," said I 'haven't got a f*****g clue," "ignorant NAZI pig," "non personality," provincial (in not quite those words), "gullible," "war loving nazi," "tosser" (don't quite get that one, but I think I catch the general sentiment), an author of "pseudo-intellectual masturbation," "self-righteous," accused of having an "incredibly large ego," "class A Wanker" (I had no idea they were graded, like eggs, and pity the person who has to do the grading), and, mixed in with the rest, asked "Are you
Jewish? And before you twist that last question to suit your own ends, it would explain the vitriol in your views."

Now, to be fair, James did apologize for his comments, dismissing them as "a few innocuous words," and has answered my postings with actual facts. I think it was once, and here it is:

When the state of Israel was created, 800,000 people were uprooted from their ancestral homes to make way for the incoming hordes. Did you expect them to leave quietly, without a fight?

The Israeli military forces have shown about as much restraint as a bull in a china shop. No one condones the suicide bombings and neither did Arafat, in fact he condemned them. But ask yourself the question why is it that so many people are prepared to give up their lives for a cause they believe in? We are not talking about one or two bombers, but
hundreds. Of course their actions are wrong but if you fail to recognise the legitimacy of their cause, then pity on you.

Now, the last time I dealt personally with James, I cut him off at the knees. Apparently he didn't learn then, so this time I'm aiming a smidgen higher.

I'll answer that one in a moment, but first I feel the need to answer the personal attacks.

Well, not so much answer them as addressing them. James apparently belongs to the school of thought (using that term very loosely) that believes the best way to refute an argument is to discredit the person making the argument. It's a lazy approach, as it only requires a command of invective instead of actual knowledge or ideas of one's own. It's summed up in the old defense lawyer's advice: "If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. And if both are against you, attack the prosecutor." It might look effective at first, but I've always found it's usually a shorthand way of acknowledging that the attacker has nothing else to contribute.

And James wants to know if I'm Jewish. I've addressed that before, and feel no great need to go into it again. But it speaks volumes about James that he thinks that whether or not I'm Jewish is germane to the rightness or wrongness of what I am saying. But I shouldn't mistake it as an accusation; he explains that it would "explain the vitriol" of my positions. Thank you, James, for confirming to me that you're not just any run-of-the-mill, garden-variety idiot, but you're a racist Jew-hater as well. I feel so much better about having called you an asshole earlier.

Now, for the substance (scant as it is) to James' criticisms. He cited the 800,000 refugees who fled their homes shortly after the founding of Israel. He's showing his ignorance here. There were actually 1.6 million refugees created at that time, people who fled their ancestral homes (often with little more than the clothes on their backs) and fled to strange lands, filled with people with whom they only had a tenuous, ancient familial kinship. It was a terrifying time, but some were more fortunate than others. Fully half of these refugees quickly resigned themselves to never returning to their homes, assimilated into their new lands and prospered, enriching their new homes. The other half found themselves treated as nuisances at best and hated interlopers at worst, shoved into miserable hovels and slapdash refugee camps and their wretched condition preserved for future use as political weapons.

The unlucky ones were, of course, the Palestinians. The fortunate ones were the Jews who fled or were driven out of the other Arab nations surrounding Israel. Everyone focuses on the 800,000 Palestinian refugees; no one mentions the 800,000 Jews who were displaced at the same time, in the opposite direction.

And why should they? Those people got dealt a crappy hand and DEALT WITH IT. They refused to stay victims. They, through fierce determination and sheer force of will, took lemons and started a lemonade franchise that soon grew into a multinational conglomerate. They refused to stay refugees.

And why did the Palestinians flee? Because they bet and lost. The other Arab nations surrounding Israel told the Palestinians that they would soon attack and destroy Israel, killing all the Jews or driving them into the sea, and then the Palestinians could return home. In the meantime, the Palestinians could just get the hell out of the way. The Palestinians listened to those people, fled Israel, and waited for the Arab victory to return home triumphant. They're still waiting.

Here's a little tip to the Palestinians: when you back losers, when you side with losers, when you bet on losers, when you consistently tie yourself with losers, when they lose, you lose, too. Perhaps it's time you stopped buddying up with those who keep lying to you, who keep breaking promises, who keep you second-class citizens (or non-citizens) within their borders, and tried learning something from those who have shown that they know how to succeed.

And here's another tip to the Palestinians: it's time to give up the worship of death and try to embrace life. Golda Meir once stated that there would be peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians "when they love their children more than they hate us." That ain't nowhere near happening now, and I've got the proof.

Do a Google search on "Wafa Idris." Half of the references will be to the 27-year-old Palestinian woman who was the first female suicide bomber, who killed one and injured over a hundred, on January 27, 2002. The other half of the references are to the Wafa Idris Summer Camp, a UNICEF-funded camp (one of many) where children are taught the basics of terrorism and inculcated in Jew-hating.

Yes, Yassir Arafat often denounced suicide bombers -- in English. In (Egyptian-accented) Arabic, he sang the praises of the "Shahid" (martyrs) and authorized funds for building suicide bomb vests. The Palestinian Authority-run television and radio constantly ran loving tributes to these "Shahids" and interviews with young children, who spoke of their hopes and aspirations to blow themselves up and kill Jews.

According to the Bible, when the Jews fled Egypt, they spent forty years wandering in the desert before being allowed to enter The Promised Land. I once heard this explained as the generation that had lived under slavery was unfit to found a nation, and it took time for a generation that had not known slavery to grow up and begin to assume the reins before they were ready for statehood. I wonder how long it will take for the current cult of death that currently rules the Palestinians to fade away, and for a new generation, ready to embrace life and the challenges in establishing a free state, to come to power.

I sincerely hope it's soon. We're all paying a price for the status quo. Especially the Israelis, and even more the Palestinians.

J.

(references in the extended section)

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Comments (25)

I believe the "tosser" refe... (Below threshold)
Rick13:

I believe the "tosser" reference is British slang for "jerk-off".

My British wife concurs: to... (Below threshold)
Boyd:

My British wife concurs: tosser = wanker.

As a fellow living here in ... (Below threshold)
Kin:

As a fellow living here in Israel I always appreciate a passioned defense of our side. Thanks!

JThank you for the... (Below threshold)
James:

J

Thank you for the response of "same old, same old". You have the audacity to cast aspersions on me,yet complain like a child to all that would listen when a few choice words are hurled back at you.

Now, the last time I dealt personally with james , I cut him off at the knees. Apparently he did't learn then, so this time I'm aiming a smidgen higher.

Before you start believing your own hype, let me you assure that I am under no illusion that there are a lot more smarter people on this planet than my good self, but it will take more than some amateur hack like your good self to make me change my views if and when they need to be changed. Extolling ones own virtues is a less than admirable trait. Once gain I urge you to climb down from your high horse before you come off with a thud.

I would like to make it clear that I AM NOT A RACIST NOR AM I ANTI SEMETIC.

We can argue the Palestinean question until the cows come home. We could go back to the times of Christ and pehaps still disagree. My sympathies are with the Palestineans and yours with the Israelis, bully for you. Little will be achieved in our exchamges so I will leave you with a little food for thought by way of two quotes.

"If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal: we have taken their country . It is true god promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been anti Semetism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auscwitz, but was that their fault? they see but one thing: we have come and w have stolen their country . Why would they accept that" David Ben Gurion #1st PM of Israel

"Let the Jews, who claim to be the chosen race , prove their title by choosing the way of non violence for vindicating their position on earth" Mahatma Gandhi.

I hereby nominate "james" a... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

I hereby nominate "james" as the # 1 ASSHOLE of the year. Wonder if "he" is kin to old "liver lips" arafish?

James, if you are indeed no... (Below threshold)
Jay Tea:

James, if you are indeed not racist and antisemitic, then please explain why it is relevant whether or not I am Jewish, and just how that would explain my vitriol.

Or not. I've got a pretty good grasp of the answer already.

And no, I'm not going to ban you from posting at Wizbang -- yet. You do a far, far better job of discrediting yourself and your positions than I could ever hope to do.

J.

Jay, you've taken a lemon a... (Below threshold)
tee bee:

Jay, you've taken a lemon and made lemonade yourself. I've been reading since about the time James piped up with "Nazi," but I haven't paid him much mind since by Godwin's law he lost the first time he opened his mouth. when he kept it up, I just stepped over him, because we can see what happens when you feed the trolls. but you win the trophy, Jay. great read.

Jay.........Why is... (Below threshold)
James:

Jay.........

Why is it that anything said remotely anti Israeli or pro Arabic is seen as anti Semetic? You talk of victim mentality amongst Arabs as though it is part of their genetic make up. You suggest that they should accept their lot and get on with it?

With regards to your own religion I couldn't care less as to whom you offer your prayers to or dont. It would however explain your Pro Isarel Anti Arab stance. That is all. I dont judge a person on his religion, race colour or creed etc etc. I pride myself on having a broadly mixed group of friends and therefore refute your charge that I am a racist. As a student I spent several months on kibbutz, met some fabulous people whom are friends to this day.

As for my discrediting myself, well,if that means that a ceratin group of people who have lived sheltered lives take exception to my views, then I can assure you, that I will lose no sleep what so ever. As I said your views pander to those of a similar perspective. You trash the MSM whilst putting your own spin on stories that you have gleamed from the msm. Are you a journalist. Do you have your own Reuters terminal, Bloomberg or PA.

JT, For the ti... (Below threshold)
LargeBill:

JT,
For the time being I think it serves all of us that you have not banned "James." Sometimes hearing the arguments of the other side helps me to reevaluate my own positions. More often when it is done in his manner it just reinforces my original opinion. If the troll goes too overboard with the invective and name calling then sure cut him loose. I've seen several "right wing" blogs that accept input from libs and politely considers their comments. I know of no liberal site that politely welcomes opposing points of view. Try going to DU and making sense. They run anyone off their board who has the audacity to think before they post.

Very good Jay tea [applause... (Below threshold)
Tim:

Very good Jay tea [applause]

You know, James, what you j... (Below threshold)

You know, James, what you just said reminds me of this one website I've seen

I can't be racist, I have some black friends

That website was created to show how modern racism can rear its ugly head, even if not meant. Black people can send in photographs of themselves and a little caption saying "they are not racist because...." and a stereotypical white saying.

ONE of those sayings is "He says that some of his best friends are black people, he might mean me!"

Just because you have some friends that happen to be of all different racists and credes doesn't mean that you aren't racist at heart. I currently am not Jewish, but that doesn't matter with the fact that I currently side against Palestine in that debate. I don't "side with Israel", I side against Palestine. There IS a difference. The nation-state of Israel was created as a place that the Jews could go after World War II were they wouldn't have to suffer persecution for their beliefs. There was a huge fluffup of that entire incident, because after World War II, Great Britain gave lip service to the jews while voting down the UN proposition for the state to be created. Do you know why? Great Britain at the time was "in like flynt" to all the arab world leaders. Why? Oil. You complain about Bush and his "cronies" and oil men? Great Britian was the biggest obstacle to the creation of Israel ONLY because the arab nations around it supplied GB with oil.
Yes, David Ben Gurion was a good leader of Israel at its conception. His quote was basically trying to understand the mentality of those around him, of the nation that he displaced. The odd thing was, was that there were Jews already in place in the entire region before the nation was already formed.

Do you realize what happened after they came in? Just about every palestinean in the area was incited against them and the Israelis literally fought tooth and nail for their tiny corner of the world. In the early days of Israel, every Jewish camp was attacked by Palestineans and arabs without regard to the Palestineans safety! The arab leaders basically fought against the Israelis without honoring even the Palestineans lives. They were basically just fighting to suit their own personal needs.

The current leaders in power in Israel cannot think of a peaceful solution because all they know is conflict. All they have seen is brothers/fathers/mothers/sisters die fighting to defend their newfound homeland (while at the same time the Palestineans could have accepted the Jews and just formed a nation WITH them). How is it peaceful when there is some radical nut-job who thinks that blowing up a bus full of schoolchildren in Israel will suit their own goals?

The leader of Hamas was onced asked about his own son. That assh*le (pardon, but he really is) mentioned that his own son was studying to be a doctor in England. Why is it that he can send other people's children to die for his own cause than to send his own?

Ask not Israel to forge peace. Ask the Asshole Arabs. The Israeli leaders are currently withdrawing from the occupied zones even while receiving critical comments from their own people.

I believe that the Israelis are going to do their part. Now let's see the Arabs do the same.

Let the Israelis choose non... (Below threshold)
LJD:

Let the Israelis choose non-violence?

How exactly does one do that with some loser blowing himself up inside a bus full of school children?

The Isrealis take no shit from these cowards. The quality of life for Palestinians is by their own choosing.

By denying every chance for peace, Arafat condemned his people. Just look at his funeral. These tools can't even get a body in the ground without screwing it up. Then they attempt to kill their own leaders...

What a jerk off!

Oh, I mean, Tosser!

Henry, you are correct. Th... (Below threshold)

Henry, you are correct. The first of the attacks from the Arabs were not even directed at the any "zionist" new-comers. The Jewish families who had been living in the area for centuries were unceremoniously slaughtered. All the Arabs/Palestinians did from that point forward was in the same vein. Attack non-combatants and kill as many innocents as possible. So the whole thing about Israel's superior military causing the rise of the terrorist is bull. It started long before Israel had any sizeable military at all.

James, this all started whe... (Below threshold)
Jay Tea:

James, this all started when I said bad things about a bad man (Arafat). You defended him by whitewashing his long history of terrorism and attacking his most frequent (but hardly only) victims.

I have also said that I desperately want the Palestinians to grow out of their victimhood status, while you continue to rationalize the atrocities being committed in their name. Which of us is more hateful?

You also generalize. I say bad things about Arafat and those who follow his beliefs and actions, and you extrapolate those into "anti-Arab" and "pro-Israeli." That's sloppy thinking.

Oh, well. As my mother once said, "don't try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig."

There are none so blind as those who will not see, you can't teach those who refuse to learn, and you can't reason someone away from a position that they did reach by reason in the first place.

And LargeBill: you are SO right about Democratic Underground. I registered there twice, and got banned and had all my postings deleted in record time. That's certainly their right, but it does kind of show how strongly they believe in the "Democratic" part of their name.

J.

James, I don't think... (Below threshold)

James,
I don't think you're an asshole. I just think you don't make the connection between opinion and fact.
You want to come here and make Jay look like a fool. It's not hard to see, and I'm sure you're not the first person to try it, but you're obviously more obnoxious than the others (and by that I mean stubborn) in that you're still here getting kicked around.
I don't see what's wrong with "Extolling ones own virtues" (aka tootin' yer own horn). He posts here, he can do what he wants, he's got people coming here to read what he writes, not what you say in your comments.
Oh, and what point do your quotes try to make?
The first one says something about how the the PM of Israel knows that other people are pissed. The second is a call to live peacefully, but it makes no sense to live peacefully when you're constantly under attack. It's not logical.
So go home, James. For your own good. You obviously fail to see your role as a jester here.

"No one condones the suicid... (Below threshold)

"No one condones the suicide bombings and neither did Arafat, in fact he condemned them. But"

Kinda lost my sympathy by following that sentence with a "but".

By the way, I still haven't... (Below threshold)
Paul:

By the way, I still haven't seen James' explanation as to the relevance of Jewishness to a) this conversation and b) vitriol. Anytime, James, anytime....

Let me put a close to the P... (Below threshold)
rls:

Let me put a close to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. If the Palestinians would lay down their arms, there would be NO MORE bloodshed due to this conflict-If the Israelis would lay down their arms, Israel would CEASE TO EXIST.

It is clear to me that the power of peace belongs to the Arabs-the Israelis have ONLY the power to exist.

As the saying goes: "One cannot reason with an unreasonable person"

Jay Tea, it's IP banning ti... (Below threshold)

Jay Tea, it's IP banning time. Enough is enough.

Part of James' misunderstan... (Below threshold)

Part of James' misunderstanding (and I can kindly call it that) may be driven by his own personal beliefs. Not everyone will share mine, but the fact is, Israel was chosen, and continues to be protected by, God.

If you doubt this, try a couple things:

1. Read about the Jews in the Bible. God makes it clear they are His chosen people (not because they are superior for any reason; simply because He chose them). Read in the Bible how God proclaimed that he would bless any nation who befriended Israel. Then think about the state of the US, and contrast that with what happened to Germany, and how well off Palestine is.

2. Think about the Jews throughout history; look at what has been thrown at them. From everything Hitler had at his command, to every suicide bomber sent from Palestine and elswhere. They are STILL HERE.

I would wager any dollar amount on a bet with anyone that Israel will NEVER be destroyed, nor will the Jews ever be eliminated. They are remaining steadfast in their chosen land, and will never be driven out.

I only hope that the US continues to be a friend to Israel. I believe that has much to do with the fact that we, as a nation, have had many blessings.

Henry:Considering th... (Below threshold)
julie:

Henry:
Considering the number of islamo-fascist terrorist doctors that have been sent to paradise after a Hellcat missile rear ended the Yugo they were riding in, it still seems pretty risky to me.

Well, you're assuming that ... (Below threshold)

Well, you're assuming that they were sent to paradise. For all we know they got sent to Hades, Hell, Heaven, "the other side" or just stopped existing.

JamesI always love... (Below threshold)

James

I always love the "are you Jewish?" question that floats my way whenever I'm arguing the right of Israel to exist and defend herself. It's just this side of the old "kike-lover" or "n-word-lover" dismissals that gets dragged out when the person charging such cannot support their own arguments.

And before you toss Ghandi into the mix, you ought to know he was vehemently against any Jew in the Middle East saying "Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs." (1938) And guess what? He said the Jews should stay in Germany ... not "fight" but "The calculated violence of Hitler may even result in a general massacre of the Jews by way of his first answer to the declaration of such hostilities. But if the Jewish mind could be prepared for voluntary suffering, even the massacre I have imagined could be turned into a day of thanksgiving and joy that Jehovah had wrought deliverance of the race even at the hands of the tyrant. For to the Godfearing, death has no terror. It is a joyful sleep to be followed by a waking that would be all the more refreshing for the long sleep."

Sound like Ghandi was a friend of the Jews in any sense whatsoever?

Ghandi was only successful because the British were basically a moral people. If he had tried non-violent resistence against a Hitler, he would have been one of the first into the showers and his name would be lost forever.

All the James stuff aside, ... (Below threshold)

All the James stuff aside, everything from the 9th paragraph down (i.e. all the stuff about Palestinians) is some of the best stuff I've ever read on Wizbang. I truly mean that from the bottom of my heart. Bravo, Jay!

[I used the word "stuff" a lot, didn't I? Bah! It's late and I'm lazy.]

That was singly the longest... (Below threshold)

That was singly the longest posting I've ever read all the way through. Very insightful.

And not to give any more fuel to James' fire, but how on earth could you be a Jew AND a Nazi? That's one of them either/or situations, methinks. Lighten yer trolling, home slice, all you're doing is making yourself look a bit slow.




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