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Al Qaeda in Iraq Beheads 2 More On Video

Rusty, as usual, is on the case.

1.22.05.beheading.jpg
Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's al Qaedi in Iraq terrorist organization has released a video of the beheading murders of two Iraqi civilians. The victims identify themselves in the video as Ali Hussein Jassem Mohammad al-Zubaidi and Ahmad Alwan Hussein al-Mahmadawi. Graphic Images from the video are posted below.

The video begins with the taped 'confession' of the two victims who admit to the 'crime' of being truck drivers for a Lebanese firm servicing a US base in Ramadi. After the taped 'confession' the two are taking outside where they are slowly beheaded with a knife.

Rusty has a link to the video.

I must confess, I'm growing increasingly less aware of what these people are trying to accomplish. The first beheading got lots of traction but after there are too many to keep track of, you reach the point where the only logical conclusion is that they simply enjoy beheading people.

It is doubtful the American broadcast media will even cover this tonight. I suppose it will get some play in Lebanon. But there is an interesting paradox.... Even when Arabs and Muslims are being beheaded, no one in the Arab/Muslim world has any sense of moral outrage.

After 9/11, it was easy to hate all Muslims. Then as cooler heads prevailed, it was easy to accept that it was just a radical wing of a perfectly good religion. Sadly, I can no longer make the intellectual case that Islam is anything but a murderous cult who will slaughter their own as well quickly as they would an "enemy."

I'd like to be proven wrong... but after 3 years of watching this behavior closely and not seeing any moral outrage from the Muslim community, I can draw no other conclusion.

Update As usual, Shit for Brains takes the quotation out of context. I'm not sure whether he is just trying to be annoying or if he really is that stupid. I'm voting both.


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Comments (43)

I agree."By their ... (Below threshold)

I agree.

"By their fruits...."

In the qu'ran, aren't there... (Below threshold)
julie:

In the qu'ran, aren't there stories of hundreds of people being beheaded in a day?

"Even when Arabs and Muslim... (Below threshold)
Just Me:

"Even when Arabs and Muslims are being beheaded, no one in the Arab/Muslim world has any sense of moral outrage."

I toatlly agree with this-there is just something off, especially since there not only seems to be any moral outrage, the Arab community still seems to be behind the terrorists and their actions.

I am not even sure what he thinks killing other arabs is going to get for him other than a few minutes on the 6 o'clock news, and even that isn't as big a story as it once was.

see above - there's more.</... (Below threshold)
firstbrokenangel:

see above - there's more.

Cindy

I have had the acquaintance... (Below threshold)
PTG:

I have had the acquaintance of a number of middle eastern professional soldiers. They liked knives to a man. When I told one of them that I depended on a .45 for self defense, he said he preferred a knife to any gun. And people complain about the NRA mentality of the 'gun happy' red states! Wait 'til they see the Islamo-fascist mentality of the 'knife happy' Islamic state the terrs want us to share.

Every time you see "The tal... (Below threshold)
Pat Adkins:

Every time you see "The tall man (Zarqwari)(sic), there is going to a beheading. The tall man is bloodthirsty. He relishes letting blood. With Allah's help, we will see his (MR Z's) blood shed soon. I cannot believe a just God would shine on his actions in the name of Allah.

Countries that practice Sha... (Below threshold)
Justin B:

Countries that practice Shari'ah Law advocate beheadings for crimes like turning against Allah. They cut off peoples hands too. They tolerate dictators like Saddam. They are desensitized to the violence. That is why no outrage.

BTW, Saudi Arabia beheads people routinely also for crimes. They are our friends, and practice this kind of violent law.

The Muslim leaders are wors... (Below threshold)

The Muslim leaders are worse than silent, many endorse and encourage the assassins.
But take a look at it historicly. Which one would be ahead in people killed in the name of their religion? Christian or Muslim? I would think the muslims have a lot of catching up to do.
I never heard of Christian leaders protesting when their armies were out killing the non-believers. Perhaps the fault lies in religions themselves. Or is that too heavy?

It would be the reli... (Below threshold)
jack rudd:


It would be the religion of Communism that holds the record in the number of murders. The Holy Roman Empire doesn't even come close.

"But take a look at it hist... (Below threshold)
Just Me:

"But take a look at it historicly. Which one would be ahead in people killed in the name of their religion? Christian or Muslim?"

That would be Muslims.

They even had Christians beat up until the 20th century, but in the 20th century, even if you included Hitler on the Christian list, the Muslims would still have killed more.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/MURDER.HTM

"I never heard of Christian leaders protesting when their armies were out killing the non-believers. "

Christians haven't been killing too many people in recent years, abortion clinic bombers are about the closest I can think of, and I heard plenty of condemnation from Christians and Christian leaders.

Historically, not sure, but then neither of us was around to listen to who was the voice of descent, so your "I haven't heard" comment is kind of moot.

I will give you that historically and at present there are some Christians who do some pretty awful things, but you won't hear me defending them, nor will you hear the majority of Christian leaders failing to do so.

I don't think the problem lies with religion-if most people obeyed fully the tenets of their faith, they wouldn't be murdering, killing anyone, or even find reason for war-the problem isn't religion, but with human nature, and the desire for power, land, and control. Communism has killed more people in the 20th century alone than Christians or Muslims ever-and that includes the Holocaust in the Christian box (even though Hitler's Christianity is very debatable). Communism advocates atheism, so can't blame that one on religion.

The only problem with relig... (Below threshold)
Rob Hackney:

The only problem with religion is that the main thing they all seem to teach is hypocrisy. And that's why I can't stand muslims, jews, christians or anyone who tells me how to live my damn life while not following ALL the rules and laws of their own damn faith. I've seen war ( The big one ), death and heroism...but I didn't see Allah anywhere.

That guy's little tidbit ab... (Below threshold)
John:

That guy's little tidbit about Hilter's swastika being a twisted cross from Christianity shows the level of accuracy he cares about in his world.

The swastika, the word, is from sanskrit meanwhile the symbol is from a several pre-christian cultures.

Not to sound ghoulish or an... (Below threshold)
ap0c:

Not to sound ghoulish or anything but that guy is obscenely fat. I'll put him on my death pool list just ahead of Ernest Borgnine.

OK, will mark it here. The ... (Below threshold)
firstbrokenangel:

OK, will mark it here. The 15 Iraqi guardsmen who were captured off a bus about a week or so ago, have also been beheaded for working with the US. Another Brazilian kidnapped, another killed. The Briton captured recently has also been beheaded.

I think if you watch the videos (and I'm not sure where they are) you can tell it's NOT Zarqawi doing the work.

All the terrorist groups are working together in unison these days and if you read Hammorbi, you can see and feel the disgust this man has over the terrorists, their actions, against the Iraqi people.

Cindy

The beheadings which we see... (Below threshold)
r.a.:

The beheadings which we see broadcast all over the world are murder, they are terrorism. We all know that. As you mention Paul, the first few that were shown around the world had a massive impact, and incited alot of anger and fear.

you wrote this:

After 9/11, it was easy to hate all Muslims. Then as cooler heads prevailed, it was easy to accept that it was just a radical wing of a perfectly good religion. Sadly, I can no longer make the intellectual case that Islam is anything but a murderous cult who will slaughter their own as well quickly as they would an "enemy."

That paragraph goes from bad to worse. Why would you hate "all muslims" for what a small group has done? That makes no sense Paul. I woke up that morning on 9/11 and saw what happened like we all did, but I knew it wasnt about hating a "type" of person, it was about finding and capturing the actual people that did it. Creating stereotypes to hate or condemn is lazy and counterproductive Paul. You are spreading that which you profess to be against: ignorance and hatred.

The last sentence you wrote in the above paragraph is a massive generalization. You have used the actions of a select group as a basis to judge millions of people.

I'd like to be proven wrong... but after 3 years of watching this behavior closely and not seeing any moral outrage from the Muslim community, I can draw no other conclusion.

What Muslim community are you hoping will speak out against this Paul? Maybe the people of Saudi Arabia who live under a terribly repressive government? Or maybe the people of Iran, or Syria, or Jordan? Notice that many Muslim people arent exactly living in the most free or open societies.

I would expect that the Muslim communities that have the strongest voices against this fundamentalism would be here in the US, and other countries where people can speak without fear.

Paul, I understand your complete disdain and abhorrence for the acts that terrorist groups have committed. I'm right there with you on that point. But lets all be careful about spreading misinformation, ignorance, and hatred ourselves.

Check this out: "Muslims against Extremism and Fundamentalism": http://www.islamfortoday.com/fundamnetalism.htm

Muslims against terrorsim: http://www.rayhawk.com/classics/matusa/home.html

Free Muslims Against Terrorism: http://www.freemuslims.org/

Muslims Condemn Terrorist attacks: http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

American Muslims should speak up: http://www.altmuslim.com/opinion_comments.php?id=1372_0_25_0_C

I found those sites with a very slight amount of effort.

There are Muslims who are speaking out. I agree that they need to be louder. So I suggest that we encourage those who do speak out, instead of condemning all Muslims for what some Muslims do. Let's be a part of the solution Paul.

The idea that we display an... (Below threshold)
RightWriter:

The idea that we display any sort of wonder or outrage at the fact that the Islamic heirarchy does not speak out against or deplore beheadings and other atrocities is nothing more than a testament to our total lack of understanding about Islam and its practitioners. Islam (the Quran) demands that certain crimes be answered with beheading. To expect Muslim leaders to stand against something we may view as an obvious atrocity is to expect them to stand against Islam and its principle teachings. It is imperative that we in the West finally begin to understand the truth about a fifteen hundred year old way of life which preaches death for all infidels. We must stop deceiving ourselves about this barbaric doctine of the middle ages and come to grips with the fact that people actually do believe in and follow its tenets. And they are not a radical fringe. On the contrary. Those who behead, those who bring death to the infidels-these are the true believers for this is what Islam teaches. If anything, the radical fringe believes in moderating Islam and bringing it into the 21st century.

RightWriter:You sh... (Below threshold)
r.a.:
ra let me go into more deta... (Below threshold)
Paul:

ra let me go into more detail... What I am doing in the paragraph is trying to separate the "feeling" side of things from the "thinking." Let me add some comments in brackets:

After 9/11, it was easy to hate all Muslims. [Sure it was. On 9/12/2001 I hated everyone a 20 nation region. Seeing the Palestinians cheering on TV made me wish W would just nuke the place. I'd guess 90% of the country felt that same way on 9/12. That's not called being a right-wing hate monger-- that's called being human. If you didn't feel that way for a while, I'd wonder about you.]

Then as cooler heads prevailed, it was easy to accept that it was just a radical wing of a perfectly good religion. [Hope that one is self explanatory.]

Sadly, I can no longer make the intellectual case that Islam is anything but a murderous cult who will slaughter their own as well quickly as they would an "enemy." [Sorry, I can't do it. A while back, Jay was required to write a post supporting tax increases. Intellectually, he could not make the case so he made an emotional argument. What I'm saying here is that if you ask me to make the intellectual case that Islam is "The Religion of Peace" and not "a murderous cult," I do not have enough evidence to make that argument.

I'd like to be proven wrong... but after 3 years of watching this behavior closely and not seeing any moral outrage from the Muslim community, I can draw no other conclusion.
With all due respect to your handful of links, you can't, with any intellectual honesty, make the case that there is an outcry from mainstream Islam to knock this stuff off. Sure you can produce a few links but a few hits in google does not make an international geopolitical movement.

When that Marine shot the terrorist in a questionable situation, the Muslims managed to find some moral outrage. When 7 soldiers put panties on prisoners' heads, the muslims managed to get outraged over that.

...Yet muslim terrorists can slaughter people in the street and the other Muslims (by and large) are silent???? Muslims can send suicide bombers to kill children on a school bus and the Muslims can't find that same level of outrage?

Bull Shit.

You can't make the case any better than I can. I'm realistic enough to admit it.

But separate my intellectual conclusion from hatred. I can no longer intellectually defend them (and consider myself intellectually honest) that does not mean by definition that I hate them. That's whole 'nother kettle of fish.

Paul

PS And as for this liberal "feel-good" crap: So I suggest that we encourage those who do speak out, instead of condemning all Muslims for what some Muslims do. Let's be a part of the solution Paul.

That's meaningless feel-good crap. If muslims need to be encouraged to speak out against beheading people in the street, doesn't that speak louder to damn them than anything I've said?

If it is up to Paul at Wizbang to explain to Muslims that beheading innocent people is bad, then I'm afraid they are worse off then even I've taken them to be.

RA you don't realize the gravity of what you have said: If it is such a small group that needs "encouragement" what did YOU YOURSELF just say about the rest of the religion?

To Paul-Clap, Clap, Clap.</... (Below threshold)
Just Me:

To Paul-Clap, Clap, Clap.

I don't think anyone could have made a better case for their position.

And I totally agree with him on the moral outrage thing. It has been bothering me for a long time.

I remember seeing an interview with Irshad Manji (she is a muslim woman who lives in Canada and is very outspoken about the problems she sees with Islam) right after the bus of school children was bombed in Basrah, and the Israeli's killed another terrorist. She listed a whole bunch of cases of muslims killing muslims in other countries (including the Barah bus bombing), that totalled a large number of people, and she said all the outrage the muslim community mustered was for a couple of terrorists killed in Palestine.

She has some very interesting opinions R.A., she knows the community problably better than you do, you might try doing a google search on her and reading her book.

paul:"After 9/11, ... (Below threshold)
r.a.:

paul:

"After 9/11, it was easy to hate all Muslims. [Sure it was. On 9/12/2001 I hated everyone a 20 nation region. Seeing the Palestinians cheering on TV made me wish W would just nuke the place. I'd guess 90% of the country felt that same way on 9/12. That's not called being a right-wing hate monger-- that's called being human. If you didn't feel that way for a while, I'd wonder about you.]"

I watched the goddamn news for weeks on end. I was depressed and shocked by what happened. I couldnt believe it had happened.

I dont share the same feeling as you in wanting to nuke the entire Middle East however. According to you the desire to kill millions of people regardless of evidence or proof is being human. So we disagree on that point.

I am honest when I say that I did not feel that bombing the entire Middle East was the right answer. I wanted what many Americans wanted, which was to find and capture the people who actually committed the crime, as opposed to killing millions who loosely fit the bill.

"With all due respect to your handful of links, you can't, with any intellectual honesty, make the case that there is an outcry from mainstream Islam to knock this stuff off. Sure you can produce a few links but a few hits in google does not make an international geopolitical movement."

There are Muslim people speaking out against terrorism. Just a few googled examples as you say. But they exist. Are they the dominant voice? Not in my opinion. You wrote that you have not seen "ANY moral outrage from the Muslim community", and I replied with examples of groups and people who are speaking out. There are quite a few links as well. Easy to find if you want to look.

Paul, often I find your methods counterproductive. Do you think that casting all Muslims as practitioners of a "murderous cult" really accurate? Is it useful? You seem to continually want to keep stereotypes and division alive and well. Whats the point?

Do you think that going around stereotyping all Muslims here and abroad really helps the current situation that we are all in?

"If it is up to Paul at Wizbang to explain to Muslims that beheading innocent people is bad, then I'm afraid they are worse off then even I've taken them to be."

No. What I am saying is that Paul at Wizbang flies off the handle and makes statements that are less than accurate, and far from constructive.


Just Me:"She has s... (Below threshold)
r.a.:

Just Me:

"She has some very interesting opinions R.A., she knows the community problably better than you do, you might try doing a google search on her and reading her book."

I'm always open for new info. Thanks for the suggestion.

I have wondered about the very question that Paul brought up. Why arent the voices of opposition louder? I dont know. But I have a feeling that it is more complicated than the suggestion that all Muslims are murderous cultists.

I provided examples of people who are speaking out, but by no means did I suggest that they were the majority, or the loudest voice. I was thinking that it might be a good start to hear what some of those people have to say about it as a start.

And I am not arguing that Islam is the "most" peaceful religion, and not trying to get into a murder ratio comparison between all religions. I am saying that there seem to be some voices of reason, and that we should listen to them, or at the very least look into what they are saying. It might provide some insight.

I found Paul's suggestion that all Muslims belong to a murderous cult to be false.

Well one problem is that th... (Below threshold)
Just Me:

Well one problem is that the voices of reason often get death threats, but it goes further than that.

I wouldn't argue that "all" muslims are murderous cultists, but they don't seem very willing to really criticize the death and destruction that is done by Islamic murderers.

I think Muslims are essentially in the midst of their reformation, and right now it appears that the voices of reason aren't getting any play, and the voices of death and destruction are winning the idealogical battle.

I also wonder how much the fact that most Muslim countries are totalitarian or fascists affects the willingness to speak out, but then when 9-11 occurred you had people in Palestine and INdonesia etc doig the happy dance out in the streets-there is some moral disconnect there, don't know where it is happening, but for anyone to take to the streets in celebration after the murder of 3k innocent people, there is something wrong.

When the Tsunami hit and over 100k Indonesians were killed, you didn't see Europeans, Canadians, or Americans taking to the streets in celebration, you saw them jump up to the call to help, and they donated billions of dollars.

Like I said, there is some discconnect here, and frankly I keep wondering when the voices of reason among the Muslims are going to start to really take a stand. I have to say that Manji is the only muslim I have seen do any interviews that isn't on some level an apologist for the havoc, death and destruction some who claim the same religion cause.

Dear Paul:To be ho... (Below threshold)
r.a.:

Dear Paul:

To be honest, I liked alot of what GW Bush said in his speech on Thursday. Did you?

How about this:

"That edifice of character is built in families, supported by communities with standards, and sustained in our national life by the truths of Sinai, the Sermon on the Mount, the words of the Koran, and the varied faiths of our people."

I highly doubt that President Bush would make a reference to the sacred texts of people who follow a "murderous cult"...what do you think? Or do you know something that he doesnt?

No. What I am saying is... (Below threshold)
Paul:

No. What I am saying is that Paul at Wizbang flies off the handle and makes statements that are less than accurate, and far from constructive.

Then by all means, ra, you start a blog making "constructive" comments and I'll sit back and watch you single handedly end terrorism. (Now my eyes hurt from rolling so much)


Do me a favor ra... Rather than try to figure out how it is my fault that Muslims are not more outraged by the murder of innocents.. can you try ... just try .. to maybe find fault with the Muslims????

Basically your argument is:

"Ok, so the majority of Muslims do not get outraged when other Muslims behead people in the street and kill innocent children, but that is not the the real problem. The real problem is that you are not constructive enough in getting them outraged."

Geeze!

See, I have this goofy little theory: If the Muslim community would get outraged and chase these people out of their mosques, I'd have nothing to post about. (!)

Hate to smack you in the face with reality, but someone had to.

I found Paul's suggestio... (Below threshold)
Paul:

I found Paul's suggestion that all Muslims belong to a murderous cult to be false.

ra, please learn to read.

Just Me:"I think M... (Below threshold)
r.a.:

Just Me:

"I think Muslims are essentially in the midst of their reformation, and right now it appears that the voices of reason aren't getting any play, and the voices of death and destruction are winning the idealogical battle."

I agree with you about the idea that they may be in their reformation. My thinking is that we should try to assist those voices of reason here in the US. We should at least see what they have to say.

"I also wonder how much the fact that most Muslim countries are totalitarian or fascists affects the willingness to speak out..."

Exactly the point. Freedom of speech isnt exactly brimming in places like Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan, Iran, and Egypt. We have to attempt to separate the regimes from the people themselves.

I agree with you about the Palestinians dancing in the street. Serious problem there. But we also have to be careful about such reporting. Scenes that show people acting in such ways are powerful and certainly can create a very negative reaction. I remember seeing that scene, and my stomach dropped. Sickening to see people doing that. I was pissed off. But we dont know how representative that footage was of the entire country, let alone the entire Middle East. Thats an issue with reporting...we see what we are shown. Thats whats really scary about the power of newscasts. They decide what the viewers are shown.

So in the Palestinian case I have to say that I found that footage disgusting, but I wont claim that I am sure such sentiments are across the board, or representative. I hope not, but may be wrong.

"When the Tsunami hit and over 100k Indonesians were killed, you didn't see Europeans, Canadians, or Americans taking to the streets in celebration, you saw them jump up to the call to help, and they donated billions of dollars."

Yes. Thats the difference between those countries and many others. Thats what gives me hope sometimes.

"Like I said, there is some discconnect here, and frankly I keep wondering when the voices of reason among the Muslims are going to start to really take a stand."

Me too. My point to Paul was that there are people who have been speaking out. By no means are they an overwhelming force, IMO. I think their voices, if strengthened, could really prove beneficial in helping to solve some of the current political crises. Thats why I'm against lumping all Muslims into one negative catagory...it does no good.

"Sadly, I can no longer mak... (Below threshold)
r.a.:

"Sadly, I can no longer make the intellectual case that Islam is anything but a murderous cult who will slaughter their own as well quickly as they would an 'enemy.'"

Paul, I was countering this statement. Providing examples of Muslims who have spoken out against terrorism gives some evidene to the contrary of what you have suggested in the above sentence.

I dont dislike you or anything Paul, I just didnt like the way you wrote that, or what you seemed to be saying. So I replied.

[my theory according to you]"Ok, so the majority of Muslims do not get outraged when other Muslims behead people in the street and kill innocent children, but that is not the the real problem. The real problem is that you are not constructive enough in getting them outraged."

No. The real problem is the fact that many of those people live in extremely repressive countries, and I think that you may have overlooked that. They cant all stand up and speak out the way we can here. They get shot for that. Along with that, for some reason, the voices of Muslims in the west are not strong enough. They do exist, but they are hardly powerful. I dont know why that is though.

"See, I have this goofy little theory: If the Muslim community would get outraged and chase these people out of their mosques, I'd have nothing to post about."

I like that theory much better than the conclusion that you came to about Muslims previously. Just because they arent all speaking out as much as they should doesnt mean that they are all members of a "murderous cult who will slaughter their own as [edit] quickly as they would an 'enemy'". It was a big jump that you made there, and I called you on it. I will not deny the fact that they have contributed plenty to the current problems.

"Do me a favor ra... Rather than try to figure out how it is my fault that Muslims are not more outraged by the murder of innocents.. can you try ... just try .. to maybe find fault with the Muslims????"

Paul, if you read me as saying that it was your fault then I apologize. I disagreed with your assertions and your statements, and thats what I was arguing against.

"Scenes that show people ac... (Below threshold)
Just Me:

"Scenes that show people acting in such ways are powerful and certainly can create a very negative reaction."

Um, they should create a negative reaction, that kind of crap sucks, and indicates a flaw in how they are thinking, no matter how you look at it.

Also, when it comes to voices of reason here in the US, or Canada or Europe, the Muslim leadership is mostly silent, or apologetic (and I mean apologetic in the sense of defense not as in they are sorry) when interviewd on TV. Like I said over the course of the last four years, I have only heard one voice slam the muslims where they should most be slammed without offering a defense for what they are doing, and that is Irshad Manji, and her arguments are powerful, I wish the news networks would give her more of the interview slots after this kind of stuff, than the usual guys/women who get on, and just offer excuses for what is happening.

There really, really is no excuse for lopping off the heads of people in the streets because they were driving a truck for a company trying to rebuild a country, or because they are fighting in the national guard for a new democratic government, or because a person is offering aid to the people of that country.

I guess I am tired of the excuses, maybe we should see a little more condemnation from the muslim community living in countries where speech is free, and their opinions won't land them in jail.

Just me:"Um, they ... (Below threshold)
r.a.:

Just me:

"Um, they should create a negative reaction, that kind of crap sucks, and indicates a flaw in how they are thinking, no matter how you look at it."

I definitely agree with you that it sucks, and is indicative of screwed up thinking, at the least.

Irshad Manji. I'm definitely looking into her.

"I guess I am tired of the excuses, maybe we should see a little more condemnation from the muslim community living in countries where speech is free, and their opinions won't land them in jail."

Agreed.


The real problem is the ... (Below threshold)
Paul:

The real problem is the fact that many of those people live in extremely repressive countries

That's a bullshit copout.

What about the millions of Muslims living in this country?

France, Germany, the Netherlands the list goes on and one. There is no cry from the mainstream Muslims that killing innocents is bad.

AND no about of you replying to me is going to make it so.

You can reply to me 100 times and not change the facts. The mainstream Muslims have shown no desire to repudiate Muslims who slaughter innocents in cold blood.

I very sorry if that fact offends you. I suggest you just to live with it.

"France, Germany, the Nethe... (Below threshold)
Just Me:

"France, Germany, the Netherlands the list goes on and one. There is no cry from the mainstream Muslims that killing innocents is bad."

I agree.

Also, it made me think of the murder of Theo Van Gogh, which is a good example of the problem. Once again, after his murder you mostly heard from muslims defending the murder, or excusing it.

Paul:What about... (Below threshold)
r.a.:

Paul:

What about the millions of Muslims living in this country?

France, Germany, the Netherlands the list goes on and one. There is no cry from the mainstream Muslims that killing innocents is bad.

You're wrong.

"If the terrorists that struck the USA last week were indeed Muslims, they have not only committed murder, which carries the death penalty, but have also committed a physical attack upon Islam by the damage they have done to its image."
-Ruqaiyyah Waris Maqsood, IslamForToday.com, September 16, 2001

Here is a nice page with tons of links for you Paul, all of people speaking against violence, extremism, and terrorism:

http://www.islamfortoday.com/fundamnetalism.htm

Goddamn Paul there are people that have spoken out, period. Your statement that there "is no cry" is simply false. Read the links dude.

You can reply to me 100 times and not change the facts. The mainstream Muslims have shown no desire to repudiate Muslims who slaughter innocents in cold blood.

You're starting to sound fanatic here Paul. Again your statement is false.

For four years now, we have heard incessantly, "Where is the Muslim voice condemning extremism?" and "Where are the moderate Muslims?" Every major American Muslim organization has clearly and loudly condemned all forms of extremism. They have condemned extremism directed against Muslims as well as extremism emanating from Muslims, but it has never reached the critical threshold at which it can be clearly heard by average Americans. The most extreme example of this was the biased media behavior following the Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC) convention on Saturday, December 18th in Long Beach, California. Over 1,500 Muslims convened to discuss "Countering Religious and Political Extremism," and spent the day discussing peace, tolerance and methods of countering religious extremism.
-Sarah Badranm, USC professor of pediatrics, from this article: http://www.altmuslim.com/opinion_comments.php?id=1372_0_25_0_C

I very sorry if that fact offends you. I suggest you just to live with it.

Paul it doesnt offend me as you say, its wrong. It's incorrect. YOU ARE WRONG PAUL.

About 20,000 people marched through the western German city of Cologne Sunday in a demonstration against Islamic terrorism that was organized by a Muslim group.

Carrying placards proclaiming that "religion doesn't produce terror" and that "terror is a crime against humanity," two groups estimated by police at about 10,000 each converged for a rally in a downtown square.
-Associated Press, THE JERUSALEM POST 11/21/04

There is a voice, but it lacks power and cohesion. Your claim that nobody in mainstream Islam is speaking out is entirely false however.

AND no [amount] of you replying to me is going to make it so.

OK. So regardless of evidence provided, you will not change your position. How open minded of you.

Your claim that nobody i... (Below threshold)
Paul:

Your claim that nobody in mainstream Islam is speaking out is entirely false however

Geeze Louise! Learn to read!

I did not say nobody in the mainstream I said the mainstream as a whole...

And you have proven me right. you've said many times how they are a minority voice and they need encouragement!

If it is a small minority, haven't you proven my point?

As Charles Johnson has demo... (Below threshold)
julie:

As Charles Johnson has demonstrated many times, muslim leaders have a tendency to say one thing to the western press (or the press just prints the pc crap) and preach the opposite to their congregations.

France, Germany, the Net... (Below threshold)
r.a.:

France, Germany, the Netherlands the list goes on and one. There is no cry from the mainstream Muslims that killing innocents is bad.

OK. Right there you wrote "there is NO cry"

You can reply to me 100 times and not change the facts. The mainstream Muslims have shown no desire to repudiate Muslims who slaughter innocents in cold blood.

There you wrote "no desire"

Even when Arabs and Muslims are being beheaded, no one in the Arab/Muslim world has any sense of moral outrage.

There you wrote "no one in the Arab/Muslim world"

I'd like to be proven wrong... but after 3 years of watching this behavior closely and not seeing any moral outrage from the Muslim community, I can draw no other conclusion.

And there you wrote "not seeing any moral outrage"

Dont keep coming back and saying that I cant read. Those are your words above Paul, and I found them to be incorrect. Big deal. You brought up an interesting issue, but your argument wasnt as strong as it could have been because you had some assumptions that were wrong. Big deal. I pointed them out.

It would have been more effective to say "There have been Muslims who have spoken out against terrorism, here in the US and abroad. However, their actions and words have not, in my opinion as Paul at Wizbang, been very effective as a movement opposing terrorism."

You see, if your argument doesnt have little holes in it, your point is stronger.

And you have proven me right. you've said many times how they are a minority voice and they need encouragement!

If it is a small minority, haven't you proven my point?

I'm not arguing that point, as I said. I agree with you that they are a minority, and that they arent a very powerful force. It's really a interesting question, and one worth looking into alot more. There are millions of American Muslims, and they do have leaders who speak out. There are many people who speak out, apparently, but it takes time to search them out. Why is that? Clearly, in mainstream American media, theirs is not a prominent voice. Why?

I replied because I found some things you said to be incorrect, and one of your statements was a bit over the top. I thought that it really detracted from a good argument by putting that fairly opinionated judgement in there. That doesnt mean that I completely disagree with your overall idea, or the point you were trying to make.

You can keep telling me that I can't read, or you can take into consideration what I have said. Maybe you think that everything I write is bullshit, and thats your right.

Debating with someone who has half a brain and a different perspective than you can really sharpen your arguments, and make you think. Why do you think I post on here? I do it because its a challenge to discuss this stuff with you and others on here, and I dont just get my views echoed back at me like I might on some other site. When you guys think I said something stupid you all say it, and thats good. Makes me think, and question my own bullshit.

By the way, I consider this whole thread a success, as nobody has resorted to calling me a Chomskybot or a moonbat or any of that other bullshit. We stuck to the subject, which is really cool. Thanks for that.

ra you are playing semantic... (Below threshold)
Paul:

ra you are playing semantical games to defend murders.

Get over it.

Wow, what a great tactic Pa... (Below threshold)
r.a.:

Wow, what a great tactic Paul. Instead of admitting error on your part, you simply accuse me of "defending murder".

Not once have I defended murder, terrorism, or violence. You tell me where I have done so.

Bad tactic Paul. Dont try to deflect this thread by making a stupid acccusation like that. Very weak on your part.

I am countering your simplistic, narrow-minded, and false claims, thats what I am doing.

You tried to claim that since "no Muslims" are speaking out against terrorism (a premise that I have proven to be false) THEN according to your thinking they all belong to a "murderous cult". Your argument was that there was no evidence to prove otherwise.

The first claim that you made was incorrect. There are people speaking out. Period. The second leap that you made was unjustified and ridiculous. It was an irrational claim, and I have a hard time letting you get away with posting such garbage.

You want to go around yelling about all the evil murderous Muslims, without considering the fact that maybe you are making a false claim. You cant just lump all Muslims into one big evil catagory, based on what some murderers who are Muslim do.

MY MAIN POINT PAUL:

Not all Muslims support terrorism and violence. Making such a claim is wrong.

You want to cast the same label upon all of them, and I find that to be assinine. Sorry, but I cant let you get away with such bullshit.

Now, you try to make the ridiculous jump from there that my counter somehow means that I am defending murder? Weak. Very weak.

We're supposed to be seeking justice Paul, not organizing a lynch mob.

Answer me this: do you still stand by your origial post? Do you still believe that every assertion you made is valid?


Now he believes my assertio... (Below threshold)
julie:

Now he believes my assertion: you're a chomskybot, r.a.

ra I really tire of your id... (Below threshold)
Paul:

ra I really tire of your idiocy.

Every time you try to make a point I refute it... then you change to a new tactic and make a new point, so I refute that.

Now you make this brilliant statement:

----
MY MAIN POINT PAUL:

Not all Muslims support terrorism and violence. Making such a claim is wrong.
----

I'm glad you appreciate that no one has called you names but now I'll say you are being a jackass. I never once said it was all Muslims.

You have made 15 different points all of which are wrong.

The only point you got right is when you said it was a small minority of Muslims outraged by the killing of innocents. Which BTW is my point.

I find it quite telling indeed that you have found 15 different things to fault me for but you have never once castigated the Muslims who (at a bare minimum) ignore the slaughter of innocence. Buy yourself a clue!

You can whine like a stuck pig all day long but you can not change the reality that the majority of Muslims don't give a rat's ass about the slaughter of innocents.

And you trying to play stupid word games won't make them give a shit.

I'm sorry you can not accept reality.

I've humored you long enoug... (Below threshold)
Paul:

I've humored you long enough. If you have something substantive to say at this point (which is doubtful) then by all means say it.

If you are just going to play word games to defend the indefensible then save yourself the trouble.

Julie:How are thos... (Below threshold)
r.a.:

Julie:

How are those sources coming along?

Here's a source for you, mo... (Below threshold)
julie:

Here's a source for you, moonbat: Google.com. Make sure to do your own research.

I said:I've hum... (Below threshold)
Paul:

I said:

I've humored you long enough. If you have something substantive to say at this point (which is doubtful) then by all means say it.

If you are just going to play word games to defend the indefensible then save yourself the trouble.

Then you came back and played more word games. After dozens chances, you still find fault in me but no fault in the Muslims who tacitly approve the slaughter of innocents.

Telling. Very Telling.




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