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The Minority Report

"We'll all be listening respectfully to the President."
(Rep. Nancy Pelosi, News conference on upcoming State Of The Union address, Washington, D.C., 1/31/05)


The New York Times -
[A]ngry emotions rose to the surface, too, when Mr. Bush said that Social Security would be bankrupt by the year 2042, an assertion that the Democrats say is a wild exaggeration. At other points in Mr. Bush's long discourse on Social Security, they rumbled and hissed, fairly rare behavior during State of the Union addresses.

The Washington Post - "[A]s the president spoke in the house chamber, several Democrats hissed and rumbled 'no, no, no' during some of his assertions about Social Security."


Milwaukee Journal Sentinel
- "Throughout Bush's remarks on Social Security, the reaction of lawmakers broke down dramatically by party, with Republicans offering ovations, and some Democrats hissing and murmuring "No!' to Bush's assertions that the system faced a crisis."

John Roberts (CBS News) - "At a couple points in this address, it looked more like the British Parliament than The United States Congress. I've never heard the minority party shout at the President during The State Of The Union Address."

Tim Russert (NBC News) - "The Democrats have lost two hotly contested presidential elections, and their nerves are frayed. You can feel it in this town, and I think it was reflected on the floor tonight."

Dana Milbank (Washington Post) - "Democrats participated in 'outright heckling.' [B]ush's rhetoric split the house chamber between the throaty roars of Republican conservatives and the stony silence and occasionally outright heckling of the Democrats."


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Comments (68)

Sad state of affairs -- All... (Below threshold)
bob:

Sad state of affairs -- All of this is so depressing... but thanks for posting it up ... man oh man...

I've been writing for a whi... (Below threshold)
Drew:

I've been writing for a while now about the self-destruction of the Democratic party. The depths to which they will sink never cease to amaze me. It seems at some point they would look around and see everyone leaving. Instead, they look at the quicksand and just step right into it.

Hey Democrats, don't let th... (Below threshold)
Jeff:

Hey Democrats, don't let the door hit ya where the President split ya.

Here's a poll I'd like to s... (Below threshold)
Wendi Sue:

Here's a poll I'd like to see:

Do the usual popularity poll immediately after the President's speech (i.e. how favorably do voters view him and his speech).

After the Democrats do their rebuttal, repeat the poll and see how much higher the numbers are.

Why haven't more people not... (Below threshold)
After what happened last ni... (Below threshold)

After what happened last night I have to resurrect a chant which I formerly reserved for any sports team with the phrase "New York" in it's name. It will now go like this:

F**K THE DEMOCRATS! F**K 'EM ALL!
Rinse and repeat.

How DARE those dasterdly De... (Below threshold)

How DARE those dasterdly Democrats interrupt Our Glorious Leader while He is lying!?

Poor Don. Always out of tou... (Below threshold)
julie:

Poor Don. Always out of touch.

At his next press conferenc... (Below threshold)
frankr:

At his next press conference, Bush should read one of Clinton's previous comments on the state of social security verbatim, and get the Dems to hiss and boo that, and then reveal that their fearless leader was the original author. That would be "must see teevee"

It doesn't matter whether t... (Below threshold)

It doesn't matter whether the Democrats thought he was lying, disagreed with him or just plain don't like him. The time to respond to what the president says is afterwards, to the multitudes of television cameras and during the opposition respose.

Booing and shouting during a presidential speech is rude, and doesn't reflect well on the maturity of those who did it. This isn't a sporting event, for heaven's sake - it's a speech by the president. But hey, Democrats have spent four years justifying jackassery because the president is Bush, so why stop now, right?

Man-Oh-Man..Libs and Dems u... (Below threshold)
HeyMike:

Man-Oh-Man..Libs and Dems usually make me angry, this is really getting pathetic. They just really do not know what to do with themselves.

The Democratic party is the... (Below threshold)
Neal:

The Democratic party is the collection point for the functional mentally ill in this country. Not all democrats are mentally ill. However, the party has been held hostage by the mentally ill faction among them. Mental illness is incurable. That's the dilemma, at least until the sane democrats, who are purportedly reasonable people, distance themselves from the sick and depraved others.

The impotence of the democr... (Below threshold)
Bullwinkle:

The impotence of the democrat party is more obvious every day. No plan, no message, no candidates, no direction, and now, no class.

Don: "How DARE those daster... (Below threshold)
LJD:

Don: "How DARE those dasterdly Democrats interrupt Our Glorious Leader while He is lying!?"

Translation: I have no valid points to make about the speech, so I'm going to attempt sarcasm to highlight the following point: Every viewpoint which is not my own, automatically must be a lie.
Viva Castro!

- If the Dem's keep digging... (Below threshold)

- If the Dem's keep digging the political hole they're in they'll soon be in China (which is where the Libtard faction belong anyway).....We should reach across the aisle in a show of bi-partisan support ....

- and make sure they all have up to date shovels....

Note this little tidbit - t... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Note this little tidbit - this was FDR's plan all along.

http://www.techcentralstation.com/020305H.html

- From the "Most fun you ca... (Below threshold)

- From the "Most fun you can have fully clouthed" column - Watching Joe Scarborough bitch slap Ronnie (Are you sure I'm not the one who was adopted) Reagan, when he did the poopoo on the MSNBC rug with his cynical take on the Janet Norwood/Safia Taleb hug moment... Probably lucky they were in different studios....

- Ronnie's face looks like the Ho Chi Min trail the day after the TET offensive.... Must be snarfing the cheap stuff these days.....

- I noticed Reagan got much less in-your-face when he was sitting near Ron Silver....Silver looked like he'd like nothing better than to reach over and pop Reagans pimple face inside out......

<a href="http://www.simmins... (Below threshold)

http://www.simmins.org/Blog/2003_04_06_arch.html#92445819 shows how much Pelosi looks like Michael Jackson. The visual similarites may pale in comparison to their common emersion in alternate realities. Neither looks or behaves like they are from around here- meaning from planet earth.

Oh lordy, lordy, the Democr... (Below threshold)
Reagan Is The Greatest!:

Oh lordy, lordy, the Democrats done breached all laws of etiquette! It's not as if Republicans booed Clinton when he DARED say that the government should be helping people! Why, oh Lord, can't our savior "Jeff" be posted at all entrances to the Chambers to warn Democrats that he will personally "hit [them] where the good Lord split [them]?" Lordy, lordy what with the homos destroying society and Democrats daring to express an opinion, what hath you wrought? Ahh, fuck it, Nascar's on and Jeff Gordon's wife is HAWT.

It was different when Clint... (Below threshold)
Kill All DemocRats:

It was different when Clinton was booed because he was an asshole taking off his pants in the Oral office.

When will those stupid Demo... (Below threshold)
Mantis:

When will those stupid Democrats learn and just become Republicans already?

Booing at the SotU has a lo... (Below threshold)
FactCheck:

Booing at the SotU has a long and distinguished history. Walking out, though, is still a Republican only thing.

1999: Republicans Booed Clinton's Entrance
Many Republican lawmakers gave him a cool, though not impolite, reception. There were a smattering of boos when Clinton first entered the House chamber, but they were quickly drowned out by applause. Some Republicans barely applauded, or refused at all to clap. House Majority Leader Dick Armey (R-Texas) and U.S. Rep. Tom DeLay (R-Texas) were conspicuously silent. [Boston Herald, 1/20/99]

1998: Republicans Booed Clinton's Medicare Proposal
Clinton's health-care initiatives, chiefly in the form of a medical bill of rights, found support on both sides, especially his attack on managed-carem health-care plans. ... Clinton's proposal to expand Medicare to allow Americans as young as 55 to buy into the system drew shouts of "no" and some boos from Republicans during his speech. [Chicago Tribune, 1/28/98]

1997: Republican's Booed Clinton's Opposition to the Balanced Budget Amendment
The Republican response was far warmer than perhaps any of Clinton's previous four State of the Union speeches. Time after time, Republicans
jumped to their feet to join Democrats in applauding the president. Only once did they unmistakably and collectively show their disapproval--when Clinton spoke disparagingly of a GOP-sponsored constitutional amendment to
balance the budget. Many Republicans hissed and some booed. [LA Times, 2/5/97]

1995: Republicans Booed Clinton and Walked Out During Speech
The upheaval wrought by the Republican election landslide was visible throughout the president's State of the Union address - from the moment
Speaker Newt Gingrich took the gavel to the striking silence that often greeted Clinton from the GOP. At one point, Republicans even booed. About 20 of them left as Clinton went on and on for an hour and 20 minutes. [AP, 1/24/95]

They are now the party of t... (Below threshold)

They are now the party of the stereotype:
Poor Blacks
Poor, immigrant Latinos
Poor, frail and sick Old people
Extremely rich White people (who do you think runs for office?)

It seems that Republicans are almost taking over where libertarians left off.

That's interesting though, Bush is actually incorporating FDR's OWN FREAKIN PLAN. Not to mention Clinton knew about it too, but Clinton was at least more of a centrist (political-wise). He was libertarian when it comes to interns (I can do anything I want).

Short memories.. Or incred... (Below threshold)
Davebo:

Short memories.. Or incredibly hypocritical..

1999: Republicans Booed Clinton's Entrance Many Republican lawmakers gave him a cool, though not impolite, reception. There were a smattering of boos when Clinton first entered the House chamber, but they were quickly drowned out by applause. Some Republicans barely applauded, or refused at all to clap. House Majority Leader Dick Armey (R-Texas) and U.S. Rep. Tom DeLay (R-Texas) were conspicuously silent. [Boston Herald, 1/20/99]

1998: Republicans Booed Clinton's Medicare Proposal
Clinton's health-care initiatives, chiefly in the form of a medical bill of
rights, found support on both sides, especially his attack on managed-care
health-care plans. ... Clinton's proposal to expand Medicare to allow
Americans as young as 55 to buy into the system drew shouts of "no" and some
boos from Republicans during his speech. [Chicago Tribune, 1/28/98]

1997: Republican's Booed Clinton's Opposition to the Balanced Budget
Amendment
The Republican response was far warmer than perhaps any of Clinton's
previous four State of the Union speeches. Time after time, Republicans
jumped to their feet to join Democrats in applauding the president. Only
once did they unmistakably and collectively show their disapproval--when
Clinton spoke disparagingly of a GOP-sponsored constitutional amendment to
balance the budget. Many Republicans hissed and some booed. [LA Times,
2/5/97]

1995: Republicans Booed Clinton and Walked Out During Speech
The upheaval wrought by the Republican election landslide was visible
throughout the president's State of the Union address - from the moment
Speaker Newt Gingrich took the gavel to the striking silence that often
greeted Clinton from the GOP. At one point, Republicans even booed. About 20
of them left as Clinton went on and on for an hour and 20 minutes. [AP,
1/24/95]

Let the Dems hiss. That's a... (Below threshold)
shark:

Let the Dems hiss. That's all they can do, because the GOP agenda is getting SHOVED. STRAIGHT. DOWN. THEIR. THROATS. and they can't stop it.

1st up- Bush will get all his judges past
Then SS, Energy, Tax Reform, etc

And all the Dems can do is sit there and take it! HAHAHAHA

Davebo> Short memories..... (Below threshold)
s9:

Davebo> Short memories.. Or incredibly hypocritical..

Or a third possibility: September 11, 2001 really did change everything, or at least it changed the appropriateness of booing the President and walking out on his State of the Union address.

Ah, for those halcyon days of olde yore, when we were carefree and young, and we could smugly and safely ignore the rude fact that They would keep trying to destroy the World Trade Center until it was finally reduced to a smoking ruin. You could impeach a sitting President, while he was prosecuting a War™, on grounds as silly as lying about getting a blowjob from a woman not his wife. You couldn't do that today— no sir. September 11, 2001 really did change everything.

Huh. That's odd. I could ... (Below threshold)
Tony the Pony:

Huh. That's odd. I could have sworn people were less mad about this when....

1999: Republicans Booed Clinton's Entrance Many Republican lawmakers gave him a cool, though not impolite, reception. There were a smattering of boos when Clinton first entered the House chamber, but they were quickly drowned out by applause. Some Republicans barely applauded, or refused at all to clap. House Majority Leader Dick Armey (R-Texas) and U.S. Rep. Tom DeLay (R-Texas) were conspicuously silent. [Boston Herald, 1/20/99]
1998: Republicans Booed Clinton's Medicare Proposal
Clinton's health-care initiatives, chiefly in the form of a medical bill of
rights, found support on both sides, especially his attack on managed-care
health-care plans. ... Clinton's proposal to expand Medicare to allow
Americans as young as 55 to buy into the system drew shouts of "no" and some
boos from Republicans during his speech. [Chicago Tribune, 1/28/98]

1997: Republican's Booed Clinton's Opposition to the Balanced Budget
Amendment
The Republican response was far warmer than perhaps any of Clinton's
previous four State of the Union speeches. Time after time, Republicans
jumped to their feet to join Democrats in applauding the president. Only
once did they unmistakably and collectively show their disapproval--when
Clinton spoke disparagingly of a GOP-sponsored constitutional amendment to
balance the budget. Many Republicans hissed and some booed. [LA Times,
2/5/97]

1995: Republicans Booed Clinton and Walked Out During Speech
The upheaval wrought by the Republican election landslide was visible
throughout the president's State of the Union address - from the moment
Speaker Newt Gingrich took the gavel to the striking silence that often
greeted Clinton from the GOP. At one point, Republicans even booed. About 20
of them left as Clinton went on and on for an hour and 20 minutes. [AP,
1/24/95]


(Yes, we're all posting the same talking points. No, it's not really an answer to point out that we are. Explanation as to why it's okay when Republicans do it and do it loudly, but an outrage when Democrats hiss and murmur? We're waiting....)

Or a third possibility: ... (Below threshold)
Mantis:

Or a third possibility: September 11, 2001 really did change everything, or at least it changed the appropriateness of booing the President and walking out on his State of the Union address.

September 11! Dissent is now inappropriate! Lockstep! Lockstep! When we did it it was cute, when you do it is unamerican! September 11! People died in a terrorist attack 3 years ago so you shouldn't oppose SS privatization!

...or pretend to say that's... (Below threshold)
Patrick Chester:

...or pretend to say that's the case so you can play the Brave Revolutionary and "risk" being silenced. I guess chicks dig the roguish freedom fighter looks.

This just goes to prove wha... (Below threshold)
Brian:

This just goes to prove what I have thought all along...

Politicians are a bunch of crybabies. They are happy when they get their way...then pout when they dont.

Awww, the poor little moron... (Below threshold)
dave:

Awww, the poor little moronic brownshirt fucks - can dish it out, but sure can't take it!

Ask mommy to bring your bwanky and some more Cheetohs. Then shut the fuck up.

And of course Evrything Wil... (Below threshold)

And of course Evrything Will Change Again in 2008 if a Democrat gets elected to the Presidency. Just admit it, you're hypocrites. There's one set of rules for you, another for us.

Why are Democrats forced to use filibustering to block judicial nominations? Because the Republicans running the Senate kept changing the rules on blocking nominations. Two cards became one, because that made it easier to block Clinton's nominees. Then when Bush took office it went back to two because we can't make it easy to block -his- nominees. But even that wasn't enough so let's do away with the card rule completely (just to be sure). Heads I win, tails you lose.

Yeah, Everything Changed on 9/11. And Everything Will Change again the next time it favors your side.

Tim

So poor President Pansy had... (Below threshold)
A Hermit:

So poor President Pansy had to listen to some dissent in the House? How tragic!

Pardon me while I chuckle and snort...I'm just trying to imagine Little Georgy having to stand up and answer direct questions from the opposition like leaders in real democracies have to do...

Actually, I've heard the pr... (Below threshold)

Actually, I've heard the press comment on the booing, and state that it is unheard of, but who on the right is complaining?
Or is the rebuttal just a paste and run thing? :)

Saying "no" is not the same... (Below threshold)
Brad:

Saying "no" is not the same thing as booing.
The Dems were saying "No" to Bush's assertion that Social Security will go bankrupt in 2042. That assertion is not a fact--and it is even contested by the Social Security Administration, and many economists.
What's wrong with taking on an unthruthful statement? The Brits do it in Parliament all the time.

What's wrong with taking... (Below threshold)
Mantis:

What's wrong with taking on an unthruthful statement?

September 11!

Eh, the idiot republicans b... (Below threshold)
tony:

Eh, the idiot republicans booed clinton. Typical cry baby conservative stupidity...

"Actually, I've heard th... (Below threshold)
A Hermit:

"Actually, I've heard the press comment on the booing, and state that it is unheard of, but who on the right is complaining?
Or is the rebuttal just a paste and run thing? :)
Posted by: SCSIwuzzy at February 3, 2005 04:22 PM "

Read some of the comments ahead of yours...or follow the trackbacks

Are we starting a betting p... (Below threshold)
James:

Are we starting a betting pool for how many of the above posts are actually from the same guy?


Anyway, a few answers to stupid questions:

* If there are any times that R's booed Clinton, or any other sitting president, during a SOTU speech, I agree that it is/was inappropriate.

* Re: "Sept. 11 changed everything!", of course that's bullshit. It was rude before, it's still rude now. "But, they did it first!" is not an excuse to be impolite.

* We're not British.

* More importantly, the SS figures (esp. the years 2018 and 2042) are, in fact, facts. It's not a matter of opinion, it's not a guess, it's the right side of an equation. Take projected outlays (paid benefits), subtract projected OADSI income (social security tax revenue), and look at the resulting number. Is it positive? Good, we're collecting more money than we promise to pay people. Negative? Bad, we promised to pay people money we don't have.

If I promise to pay the bank 10 grand for a car loan, and don't have that money when the time comes to pay them, we call that bankrupcy. People will come and take my stuff.

*Even more important than the above, the system is broken right now. The "trust fund" has no real money at all, it's full of IOUs (bonds). The actual dollars that come into the system immediately get sent back out to retirees. As a member of the generation that gets stuck with the bill for the IOUs (by odd coincidence, I first become eligible for full benefits in 2042), I'm more than a little fucking concerned.


OK, done now. I hope I don't look as dumb as all these libs.

Kevin, you just got set up.... (Below threshold)

Kevin, you just got set up. The dems were waiting with those talking points for the first person on your side of the fence to bitch about the booing, so they could unlease those and say that Republicans are hypocrites, and hate dissent only when it is against them.

Man, you got used.

Let me say it again for all... (Below threshold)

Let me say it again for all you wingnuts: USED.

James: which lying thieves ... (Below threshold)

James: which lying thieves was it that emptied the trust fund & left "IOU's" in place of real money, & why weren't you complaining back when they did it? Oh that's right, it was Republicans. Why don't you take it up with themn?

Tim

I was going to leave some k... (Below threshold)
Red State Liberal:

I was going to leave some kind of snarky comment about how you Republican knobs just got owned, but I see pretty much everyone has beaten me to it.

Instead, I'll just shake my head and remark on how much more emphasis the Repubs are suddenly placing on civility now that one of their own is president . . .

The Chip hasnt got a chance... (Below threshold)
its hard work bein stupid:

The Chip hasnt got a chance in Hell with ruining Social Security.

Reading this board just reminded me why I would sooner kiss Kindasleazys ugly face than I would admit to being a conservaturd.

Oh btw, hows it feel to find out half of the RNC are swordswallowers? LMAO. Somebody hep me. Im loooosin my anal...

James> Even more importa... (Below threshold)
s9:

James> Even more important than the above, the system is broken right now. The "trust fund" has no real money at all, it's full of IOUs (bonds).

That's what a Leninist would say, of course. To get a revolutionary economic agenda into place, you first have to establish a "revolutionary consciousness" through the efforts of Party message discipline.

Never mind that U.S. Treasury Bonds are "real money"... that's the first concept that has to be jettisoned if the glorious revolution is to be successful.

The next thing that has to go is any memory about what Alan Greenspan convinced the Congress to do with the Social Security Trust Fund back in the 1980's. It simply wouldn't do at all if young people were to comprehend that they've been paying higher payroll taxes for twenty years now in order to build up the very surplus you're now trying to EXPROPRIATE to fund the expansion of your vaunted proletarian revolution.

All hail the glorious revolutionary vanguard of the Grand Old Party. Once we abolish the undemocratic and imperlistic Social Security program, perhaps it will be the spark that will finally create the Ownership Society, wherein the proletariat will truly own and control the means of sustaining their destiny in the face of crushing attacks on the revolution by foreign terrorist enemies.

It's all so clear to me now.

Wow, I've never seen such a... (Below threshold)

Wow, I've never seen such a lengthy anti-replub comment spam here @ Wizbang. I felt like I was reading DailyKos or DU.

I agree that if they DID boo and hiss Clinton, I think its rude and shouldn't happen.
HOWEVER

We have no idea if it happened or not. POST LINKS, or we'll assume you don't have any and are spouting shit out of your ass. I shouldn't have to do the fact checking in YOUR arguments either. FactJeck, Tony the Pony, Davebo, NEXT TIME POST LINKS ALONG WITH YOUR SO-CALLED HISTORY OF EVENTS. OTHERWISE.

shut up... (Below threshold)

shut up

Lenninist? Bitch please. ... (Below threshold)
James:

Lenninist? Bitch please. What's all this about "revolutionary consciousness"? I just don't want to pay for everybody else's retirement and find that I'm forced to choose between fending for myself or giving my grandkids 70% (read: European) tax rates when I get old.

As for the trust fund: The roof is broken.

I'd just like to say that no, bonds are not "real money", they are a promise to pay somebody real money sometime in the future.

If nobody bought bonds from the U.S. government, ever again, starting tomorrow, the next day they'd probably have at least one of the multitude of bonds ever issued come due. There would be exactly two options: 1) reneg on the debt, losing huge chunks of trust (not an option) or 2) pay the full value of the mature bond to the holder, taking the money from somewhere else -- other programs, tax surplus, printing new money, whatever. The point is, the bond itself has no value, it is simply a promise to transfer value at some future time. It is, in short, an IOU, just as I said. It is an accounting trick, smoke and mirrors, and should be viewed as such.

As for the past, I don't care who misappropriated the money before, or what Greenspan did when I was in elementary school. I see that the system is broken now, and dammit all if I don't want it fixed. I'm a fiscal conservative and I agree that we need to try to cut spending -- howsabout we start with all the entitlement programs you dems put in place to pander to your minority base? -- but that has absolutely no bearing on the versimilitude of the statement that Social Security is in a bad way.

Anyway, s9: please drop the "revolutionary" sarcasm. It doesn't help your point; it's just confusing.

Henry,Just because... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Henry,

Just because you were too young or not engaged enough to remember past speeches doesn't mean that people must hold your hand and guide you past your ignorance. The posts above referenced exact speeches and the sources to find them. If you are unable or too incompetent to use the internet to follow up on claims that you doubt the veracity of, well, then, quit posting comments on blogs. Or rather, to use your elegant prose, shut up.

James> I just don't want... (Below threshold)
s9:

James> I just don't want to pay for everybody else's retirement and find that I'm forced to choose between fending for myself or giving my grandkids 70% (read: European) tax rates when I get old.

Then don't.

Under the current system, without any changes to it, you aren't paying for anyone else's retirement. The U.S. Treasury is cutting the checks. And no— the treasury isn't drawing the checks from your personal checking account.

You might like to think the money collected under the payroll tax is somehow "yours" but it isn't, and it never was. And your delusion to the contrary, c.f. here, here and here, is exactly what I am referencing in my comments about the problems in your "revolutionary consciousness."

James> The point is, the bond itself has no value, it is simply a promise to transfer value at some future time.

What on Earth do you think "real money" is other than a promise to transfer something of real value? The fact that you want to convince me that the real money our generation has been putting into the Social Security system doesn't really exist is enough to tell me that you're probably a dangerous bomb-throwing revolutionary.

Go sell your radical economic ideology to someone else. I've had enough of it.

James> I see that the system is broken now, and dammit all if I don't want it fixed.

Except, it isn't broken now. It's like fourth in the order of fiscal problems facing the U.S. government. The first three are the yawning budget deficit, the utterly absurd trade deficit, and the Medicare budget. If it was like fixing your car, the urgency of these problems would be (in order) 1) getting the drunk driver out of the driver's seat; 2) pulling your car off the bottom of a lake, and 3) overhauling the engine before it throws a rod. Comparatively, the Social Security problem is like a slow air-pressure leak in one of the rear wheel tires.

Social Security is not broken now. It may (or may not, depending) need relatively minor tweaking in a decade or so.

James> Anyway, s9: please drop the "revolutionary" sarcasm. It doesn't help your point; it's just confusing.

p1. It wasn't sarcasm.

p2. I couldn't care less that you were confused by it. Most readers are not as easily confused as you.

"* More importantly, the SS... (Below threshold)
Just John:

"* More importantly, the SS figures (esp. the years 2018 and 2042) are, in fact, facts. It's not a matter of opinion, it's not a guess, it's the right side of an equation. Take projected outlays (paid benefits), subtract projected OADSI income (social security tax revenue), and look at the resulting number."

Projections may be little better than a guess, but they are certainly not "facts".

I'd just like to say tha... (Below threshold)

I'd just like to say that no, bonds are not "real money", they are a promise to pay somebody real money sometime in the future.


If the US Government is planning on defaulting on its general treasury bonds then Social Security is the least of our problems. The US dollar would be worthless were that to happen. Economics. Money Supply. Go study it.


I agree that if they DID boo and hiss Clinton, I think its rude and shouldn't happen.
HOWEVER. We have no idea if it happened or not.


Typical right-wing philosophy: if we don't like the truth, we will just pretend it is not true. Guess what hotshot: I remember when the Rethugs booed Clinton --- wasn't that long ago. Now get back to your homework.

And Kevin, one more time: Walked right into a trap, like watching goldfish in a bowl.

YOU. GOT. USED.

What on Earth do you thi... (Below threshold)

What on Earth do you think "real money" is other than a promise to transfer something of real value? The fact that you want to convince me that the real money our generation.

Don't try to explain such basics to these clowns. Remember these are the people who want to teach creationism in schools. They probably think that "real money" is made out of magical paper.

The point is, the bond i... (Below threshold)

The point is, the bond itself has no value, it is simply a promise to transfer value at some future time. It is, in short, an IOU, just as I said. It is an accounting trick, smoke and mirrors, and should be viewed as such

I can't stop laughing at your idiotic statements. . . . Can't wait to tell the bank that the mortgage is just an "accounting trick" that I never have to pay. . . . . . So answer this: what's "real money?" I really like to get some of that. . . . Did God create it on the sixth day? Is it in Eden?

Oh yeah, I like your solution to a general default: just print more "real money." Wow, I would really like one o' dem magical printin' presses. Again, go back to your homework, I think you study American history in 8th Grade. Come back in 10 years.

James: if you really feel t... (Below threshold)

James: if you really feel that way, then write the President and his (your?) party to make that case to the people. I think that's the problem with this discussion... there are lies wrapped in half-truths wrapped around a kernel of ideology that some agree with and others don't.

Be Honest. Ask your reps to be, too. If you're against social security, for criminey's sake, JUST COME OUT AND SAY IT.

I'm happy to have that debate and can be convinced that 401K style accounts and means based "welfare" for the truly destitute retirees is a better choice. We're not having that debate, though. The President is going around saying that social security is going to implode. He's acting as if FDR didn't have actuaries forcast the number of retirees in the 90's and beyond.

Stop talking about the fiscal problems with social security and make the case for elimination.

You claim references. In ca... (Below threshold)

You claim references. In case you wondered, I never saw a real "reference" cited. If you wanted to really reference something, you'd use a standardized reference format such as MLA or such.

Or, since this IS a weblog/webpage, the most common way of referencing is LINKING. LINKING.LINKING.LINKING.LINKING.LINKING.

If you had linked, then I would have clicked. I DON'T HAVE TIME TO DO YOUR RESEARCH FOR YOU.

And yes, for the record, I ... (Below threshold)
s9:

And yes, for the record, I am very seriously arguing that anyone who thinks the Social Security Trust Fund is currently filled with "worthless I.O.U.'s" and that the government obligation to pay current and future retirees a Social Security benefit is some kind of "unfunded liability" or whatever is the scare-phrase of the moment— these people are basically Leninists bent on destroying capitalism itself.

I'm just calling them out for being Useful Idiots.

It's pretty funny to hear p... (Below threshold)
capt joe:

It's pretty funny to hear people like, weel, all these lefftist bozos cum moonbats pretend they got any upper hand in all this when they have lose every elction in the least few years.

Guys, if you stop trying so hard you will break lightspeed in reaching a party of zero members.

Cincinnatus,Exactly ... (Below threshold)

Cincinnatus,
Exactly what are you trying to do by presenting Usenet-style debate that any 12 year old can put forth? I, for one, am open to reading all sorts of opinion but when someone is playing trash-talk from the security of their PC it really doesn't say "I'm presenting a well thought out opinion".

I'm not trying to be smarmy or mean, but you *could* present yourself in an adult manner. That is, if your intention is to do anything OTHER than drive-by comment, which anyone can do.

All that said, I recall the GOP semi-cackling Clinton during his tenure. I don't know if it was "booing" but it was unbecoming behavior. They learned & straightened up the rest of the time.

We have no idea if it ha... (Below threshold)
Jeff:

We have no idea if it happened or not. POST LINKS, or we'll assume you don't have any and are spouting shit out of your ass. I shouldn't have to do the fact checking in YOUR arguments either. FactJeck, Tony the Pony, Davebo, NEXT TIME POST LINKS ALONG WITH YOUR SO-CALLED HISTORY OF EVENTS. OTHERWISE.
Posted by: Henry

From the Minnesota Daily's website - http://www.mndaily.com/daily/gopher-archives/1995/01/25/WNUNION.STO.txt

So, Henry...can we expect you to admit that the Republicans booed TEN YEARS before you were morally outraged about a lack of respect for a President at the State Of The Union?

I don't suppose I should wait for an apology, huh?

I DON'T HAVE TIME TO DO ... (Below threshold)
Jeff:

I DON'T HAVE TIME TO DO YOUR RESEARCH FOR YOU.

Posted by: Henry at February 3, 2005 10:16 PM

Other posts by you

Posted by: Henry at February 3, 2005 10:16 PM
Posted by: Henry at February 3, 2005 09:55 PM
Posted by: Henry at February 3, 2005 08:34 PM
Posted by: Henry at February 3, 2005 07:18 PM
Posted by: Henry at February 3, 2005 07:11 PM
Posted by: Henry at February 3, 2005 06:55 PM
Posted by: Henry at February 3, 2005 06:54 PM
Posted by: Henry at February 3, 2005 02:28 PM
Posted by: Henry at February 3, 2005 02:10 PM

Seems to me you have PLENTY of time to do research.

These Canadians that are sh... (Below threshold)
Drew - Dallas, TX:

These Canadians that are showing up in droves using an American product (Google) to Ctrl+C/Ctrl+V the entire range of propaganda into as many blogs as possible.

These pussies were all over slashdot today crying about the President's request to revive the Patriot act - specifically the impact on their ability to do "private" business through our transgate services - IN SERVERS IN THE UNITED STATES and suddenly fearing the US government's mighty intelligence wrath.

Ironically, it's also something that they have been bitching constantly - the US Government's LACK of intelligence up until last night's SOTU address.

Please notice that since there's not World Bank protests, PETA assaults on PFK or NHL, they'll constantly bitch about everything American with one exception - "citizenship". Now, I like Canada, even Montreal, but they will try to tell us a variety of things like it costs less to live there to the idea that they suddenly care about our tax dollars.

As far as the news and blogs that we read daily, folks from other countries now have something that they have longed for for quite some time...

...a direct channel into your face as a United States citizen in your home or place of business to tell you that you are wrong. So be head's up as to who is talking to you.

While their opinions are welcome here in the U.S. for some reason, I'm comforted by the fact that there are dead bodies in Washington state that have more say in the American political system than these posers. They somehow conveniently forget to tell us where they are from, and that all of the sudden they care about who boos who.

If equity returns are what ... (Below threshold)
FactCheck NY, NY:

If equity returns are what the privitization plan proposed by GWB say are, then the conservative estimates on economic growth put forward to get to the 2042 70% benefits reduction are not tennable. Equites will grow at 7% real (remember to add inflation to get nominal) but productivity will grow at only 1%? Not likley.

Our social security is being sold to the highest bidder. Don't let them take it from us. There is no crisis.

"Under the current system, ... (Below threshold)

"Under the current system, without any changes to it, you aren't paying for anyone else's retirement. The U.S. Treasury is cutting the checks. And no— the treasury isn't drawing the checks from your personal checking account."

You might like to think the money collected under the payroll tax is somehow "yours" but it isn't, and it never was."

One who strains to break the bounds of reality as ardently as this fool ought not to be graced with a reply, but I'll point out one thing that should have, at the very least, given the moron pause before posting the comment: If you are going to assert the income I earn from any employment is not mine; if you claim that my productive work does not belong to me, then what right do I have to use ANYTHING of what I make at my job without the consent of the state?

Charles Hueter> If you a... (Below threshold)
s9:

Charles Hueter> If you are going to assert the income I earn from any employment is not mine; if you claim that my productive work does not belong to me, then what right do I have to use ANYTHING of what I make at my job without the consent of the state?

That's the typical whine of an anarchist. There's a reason sensible people have always been a little concerned about those types.

p1. I did not (and do not) assert that income we earn from our employment is not ours. I would say the opposite is a better view.

p2. I did not (and do not) assert that the product of our labor does not (or should not) belong to us. Again, I would say the opposite a better view.

p3. The fact that our income and the product of our labor is our property does not settle anything about who else (including the state) may have legitimate claims to a portion of it.

Anyone who thinks that the state has no legitimate claim to a portion of our incomes or the product of our labor is, by definition, an anarchist, and ought to be treated like one. The revenues collected in the U.S. under the payroll tax pass directly from employers to the state without employees ever possessing it. It is, therefore, not ours at any point in the process.

if you had linked, then ... (Below threshold)
r.a.:

if you had linked, then I would have clicked. I DON'T HAVE TIME TO DO YOUR RESEARCH FOR YOU.

henry, thats really weak on your part, especially where you ask for MLA format references...the articles gave you the dates, and where they came from.

your argument was shot down, just admit it. its not the end of the world.

How would you treat me then... (Below threshold)

How would you treat me then?

My criticism's scope applies to more than just single citizens. What about the individuals that own a business? Assuming you are correct, it doesn't change the situation any that they are taxed rather than the other employees. The nature of an employee being taxed and an employer being taxed remains identical, because both have earned their wealth and property. Again, by what right do those people have to use anything without the consent of the state?

I was yelling at the TV mys... (Below threshold)
Marc:

I was yelling at the TV myself because "W" was outright lying about Social Security -- and I'm thoroughly sick of it.

Depending on trends such as economic growth, birthrate, immigration and life-span, Social Security may well be sound for generations. The real problem is federal budget deficits, in a nutshell. Not Social Security.

With that in mind, have you ever noticed that the Bush White House confidently predicts robust economic growth in coming decades when arguing to make their tax cuts permanent; but when discussing their scheme to dismantle Social Security, they just as confidently cite the Social Security actuaries' prediction that the economy wil soon slow to a crawl for the next 40 years. Why not flip the script? If the economy continues to grow with typical robustness, payroll tax revenues will be much higher than the Social Security trustees predict, and there will likely never be a shortfall in Social Security. Visit BUSHSOCIALSECURITYPLAN.COM to see what "W" is really proposing.




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