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Wasted Youth

I've avoided writing about this topic for a couple weeks now, but the story keeps getting stranger and stranger, sadder and sadder.

But as Hunter S. Thompson often said, "when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."

Milton Academy is an extremely exclusive and prestigious private school in Milton, Massachusetts, just south of Boston. Tuition runs $32,000/year for boarding students. It's educated the powerful and famous for centuries.

But recently, Milton Academy had a little problem. It turns out that several of its students were misbehaving, and got caught. The students were disciplined, and the matter was closed.

Or so they thought. This is where it gets weird, lurid, and more than a little disturbing.

The initial reports were that a 15-year-old female student, fairly new to the school (as her name is not being revealed, we'll call her "Monica" for reasons that will soon become apparent), was fond of several players on the hockey team. So fond of them was she that she met five of them in the locker room and orally serviced all five of them during a 15-minute period. Unfortunately, two more students walked in on this and reported it to authorities. The five hockey players (all ages 16 and 17) were summarily expelled, and Monica was placed on "administrative leave" and sent home to (blush) New Hampshire.

Everyone was all atwitter about this, but the story was seen as mostly over. After all, all six students were gone, unlikely to return. The only question was whether the local prosecutor was going to file statutory rape charges against the boys.

Then more stories arose. It seems that two days prior to the locker room party, Monica had sneaked into a boy's dormitory room. There she serviced three of the same boys from the locker room incident, as well as a fourth, while a fifth stood watch. The school reopened the matter long enough to place that fourth boy -- who is 15, like Monica -- on "administrative leave" as well -- again, like Monica.

And just as the dust settles from that revelation, here comes this story in this morning's Boston Herald. It seems that two weeks after the locker room incident, the same five hockey players attended a "Sweet Sixteen" birthday party in a Boston hotel for a female student. The theme of the party (in a suite reserved paid for by a student's parent) was obvious from the get-go; guests were greeted by two topless girls at the door, including Monica, and there was plenty of booze around. The phrase "drunken orgy" certainly seems to apply.

I... I don't know what to add to this story. I find myself saddened, disgusted, envious, titillated, and deeply troubled by this whole account. It raises far more questions about education, morality, the law, parental responsibility, the state of society, academics and sports...

And I just don't have the stomach to deal with it all. I'll let you kick it around.

J.


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Comments (74)

Misbehavior and crime stems... (Below threshold)
Sue Dohnim:

Misbehavior and crime stems from poverty and racism. This is true because leftists say so.

I will start by saying that... (Below threshold)
Just Me:

I will start by saying that 16 and 17 year olds shouold not be charged with statutory rape of 15 year olds. If she was giving BJ's to teachers I would feel differently, but the age difference isn't that much.

Also, she seemed pretty willing. I think overall teenagers are way overly sexual than they were, when I was a teen. Sure there was sex, but most of it was between couples who were dating to some degree, not BJ's for all the guys on the hockey team.

Overall I think it is sad. But I also think parents take more of a lax attitude about what their teens choose to do.

RE: Jay Tea's post (11:00 A... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

RE: Jay Tea's post (11:00 AM)
And I just don't have the stomach to deal with it all. I'll let you kick it around.

Uh, thanks but no thanks. But someone will be sure to pass this along to the likes of J. Springer. This is just up his alley. (Is his exhibitionism-n-exploitation display still on, or did he quit and start running for Democratic office?)

People shouldn't act like t... (Below threshold)
Faith+1:

People shouldn't act like this is new. School sluts go way back. I doubt highly this is the first time this has happened, it won't be the last.

Terrible that it happened? Yes, I agree but pretending things have been all rosy all these years and only recently was the "school slut doing the team" is just being in denial. They existed 25 years ago when I was in high school, they existed 20 years before that and they've existed every year and every day since then. Honestly, think back to high school and can you honestly say there wasn't at least one girl giving BJ's to their boyfriend? Please...

This is only news because it happened at some prep school for holier-than-thou elitist. Otherwise, it wouldn't even be note worthy.

"Honestly, think back to hi... (Below threshold)
Just Me:

"Honestly, think back to high school and can you honestly say there wasn't at least one girl giving BJ's to their boyfriend?"

To her boyfriend yes, but to the whole hockey team (okay my school didn't have a hockey team, it was swimming, basketball and baseball), no. I can think of one girl who might have been game, but she was more interested in older guys than her classmates.

As someone who went to one ... (Below threshold)
Tom:

As someone who went to one of these holier than thou elite schools, it went at our school to.

Unfortunately, I was not one of the fortunate elite that was invited to partake.

Boarding Schools are not the bastions of perfect behavior one would imagine. I learned most of my bad habits there.

Having gone to a similar Bo... (Below threshold)
Red:

Having gone to a similar Boarding School not all that long ago (Ok, kinda long ago) I can concur with Tom's post. I should I was his roomy.

Boarding Schools bring many of the Public high school antics to a whole other level. Usually they are covered up and never put into the public arena. Things like this went on more than one might ever think.

We not only got a great education, we learned how to get away with almost anything. I certainly do not agree with what happened; however, we should not pretend like this will be the first it last time it will.

Went to one of those boardi... (Below threshold)
Dave:

Went to one of those boarding schools as well; no shock at these antics. Any shock I think is a function of a lack familiarity with the schools' culture and the kids who go there.

A.D.-RE: J.Springer ... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

A.D.-
RE: J.Springer
"(Is his exhibitionism-n-exploitation display still on, or did he quit and start running for Democratic office?)"

How would one tell the difference?

Jay, unfortunately, this is... (Below threshold)

Jay, unfortunately, this is not uncommon. I don't know if you ever got around to reading my piece on SouthPark Republicans, but the last half of it deals with exactly why this sort of thing happens. Here it is for anyone interested.

http://rightwingsparkle.blogspot.com/2005/01/open-letter-to-southpark-republicans.html

1. The males were not of ag... (Below threshold)
Jumbo:

1. The males were not of age, there is no stautory rape or other sexual crime;
2. What a sad little girl, and, yes, what sad, swinish, woot-woot, MTV boys;
3. What lousy parents, all around;
4. Why. pray tell, were the boys expelled and the fellatrax put on Injured Reserve, sure to be readmitted?;
5. 10-to-1 NO ONE involved in this mess, students, teachers, parents, adminstrators, have uttered the word "wrong" describing this little episode, instead opting for the nicely-mushy "inappropriate"
6. The smallest bright light in this story of the historically crypto-faggotry prep ethos: at least she was female.

Where the hell do parents g... (Below threshold)

Where the hell do parents get the idea that sending their kids to boarding school will force them to behave properly?

It's military school, not boarding school.

I don't think you folks get... (Below threshold)
anonymous:

I don't think you folks get it. This kind of behavior is actually fairly common. It has nothing to do with boarding schools or this one particular girl. (Loo at the CDC cases, particularly the one in Atlanta a few years ago involving multiple-partner sex among teens or the Washington Post article on oral sex with middle school kids). It's just the way that the culture is going. And when these kids get older, they go to college and the "dating scene" (if you can even call it that) goes to a whole new level.

The interesting question concerns the among very young that a BJ isn't sex. Was President Clinton as early adopter/benefitiary or did he actually lead a change in the society? I don't have an answer.

Actually the BJ is not sex ... (Below threshold)
LJD:

Actually the BJ is not sex definition pre-dates Clinton; he just brought it public.

And why punish any of the boys? Do we really expect that any 17 year-old would say no to a free BJ?

Take a look at the parents. Take a look at MTV and Hollywood. Why can't you watch TV for more than two minutes without being absolutely bombarded with sexual images?

Who would say no??? And tha... (Below threshold)

Who would say no??? And that makes it ok???

*bangs head on keyboard*

Sparkle - yes you have it e... (Below threshold)
Sherard:

Sparkle - yes you have it exactly right. The prudish far right social conservatives, in which I guess I have to lump J Tea, are on a crusade to impose YOUR moral standard on America.

I don't think this episode is anything to be proud of, necessarily, but the public outcry is ridiculous. What took place here is between those kids and their parents. period.

I'm certainly curious where your prude line extends. If they were all 18 year olds, would that still be reprehensible ? Frankly I'm tired of hearing from the prudes on the right, and they are a big reason why a twice Bush voter is leaning to an as yet unnamed Democratic nominee in 2008. The crusade has gone far enough.

Why can't you watch TV f... (Below threshold)

Why can't you watch TV for more than two minutes without being absolutely bombarded with sexual images?

I don't think any of you guys get it. It has nothing to do with sex. You also see violence every two minutes. Does that ok kids going out creating probs? No.

It's not tv, or radio, or anything of a political nature. It has everything to do with how that child was raised, and her self-esteem.

Why did she feel this was necessary? Does she not think she is good enough without throwing sex into the equation? If on leave for this, why was she at a party? Funny, but I would have ground her ass.

Why is the girl "sad" and "... (Below threshold)

Why is the girl "sad" and "pathetic"? Girls physically mature sooner than boys; this girl has likely been physically a woman for several years. She has physical urges and desires. Why do we assume that a girl giving BJs is sad and pathetic, and not acting out of her own sexual desires? The boys getting the BJs may be insensitive, but they're not just as "sad" and "pathetic"? Hello, we all remember that women like sex too, don't we? You can argue about whether a fifteen year old is capable of making "choices" about sexuality, but everyone is assuming that the girl is pathetic and has somehow been exploited. I'm here to tell you that ain't necessarily so.

orally serviced all five... (Below threshold)

orally serviced all five of them during a 15-minute period

Three minutes each? Yeah, that sounds about right for a bunch of teenage boys.

I'm sorry to comment twice ... (Below threshold)

I'm sorry to comment twice in a row, but I just saw this:

The prudish far right social conservatives, in which I guess I have to lump J Tea, are on a crusade to impose YOUR moral standard on America.

Of course we are! Of course we're trying to impose our moral standards. That's what makes them "standards!"

And just for the record, we're not all "prudish, far-right social conservatives." Have a conversation with me about public education sometime. You'll swear I'm a radical leftist. And if we have a conversation about pornography, you'll know I'm not a prude.

You don't have to be either a prude or a conservative to believe that it's wrong for 15-year-old girls, who are probably swimming in a sea of poor self-esteem already, to provide sexual services to the tribe's alpha males. Left or right, top or bottom, that shit is just fucked up.

First off, if what is being... (Below threshold)

First off, if what is being said about the 15 y/o girl is true, she is disturbed and CPS should be investigating. I'll lay odds too that she was sexualized, probably molested, pre-pubscent. This kind of acting out is beyond the bounds of mere "school slut."

And if any of you "this happens all the time" crowd will take a moment, you'll know that a lot of what you believe you remember was mere heresay, not direct evidence. I remember the girl everyone labeled "slut" based on stuff with no more substance than "well, I heard from Jill, who's boyfriend Jay is best friends with Steve who plays baseball with John who ..." She was really a rather nice girl who had made a couple of mistakes and a couple of enemies bent on driving her from the school.

Teens lie about sex almost as much as adults do.

No, the boys shouldn't be criminally charged as long as no coercion took place. Yes, it is the school's right to punish them as they see fit.

And the parents who arranged for an underage drinking/stripper party should be in front of a judge.

Sherard? Maybe if you were either a parent or saw the consequences of early sexualization of children you might not so cavaliarly dismiss those that question such behavior "prudes." GEEZ! Think with the brain, not the gonads, ok?

What are your thoughts on R... (Below threshold)
bob:

What are your thoughts on Rainbow Parties? Ever been to one? Has your kid ever been to one?

See here:

http://tinyurl.com/6wwqj

http://tinyurl.com/7yqwh

Why why why do we assume th... (Below threshold)

Why why why do we assume this is poor self esteem? Can't women have raging sexaul appetites too?

But ya know, it isn't a mat... (Below threshold)
Just Me:

But ya know, it isn't a matter of raging sexual appetites, it is a matter of teaching kids some self control, and why sex (oral or penetration) when you are 15 is not a good idea, and waiting, at least until you are an adult is a better plan.

Honestly kids can control their urges, if parents take the time to teach them why. I think we do kids a disservice, when we assume that their sexual desires are the only thing they shouldn't have to control.

Raging Sexual Appetites at ... (Below threshold)

Raging Sexual Appetites at fifteen are not exactly a good thing. It is generally low self esteem, no matter how confident she is in appearance. There is more to low self esteem than wallflowers.

Anyone, especially a 15 year old NEW to school, who feels she has to service the Hockey team is trying to prove something. I do not care what alternative reality you are living in, there is nothing right or healthy about this. Was she abused? Doubtful. She is probably just like the rest of the girls who do this, overly sexualized at a very very young age.

Look at the kids toys on the shelf for girls. ages 4 and up "Tattoos", "Make up", "Dress up Gowns." Look at the Brazt™ for goodness sake. What do you expect girls to be like when this is what we give them to play with. Barbie's biggest vice is shoes. This Bratz look like their date guys who hold up convenience stores. For lack of a better term, they look like someone's "Bitch."

Isn't that what the goal is now? Listen to the music. It is all about being someone's bitch. This defines their status on their social ladder.

This is more than sad, it is dangerous, reckless, and will lead to nothing good. Nothing.

You know what this remind me of? Have you ever been laying in bed at night or sitting quietly and think about something you pulled when you were a kid? Something stupid. Some place you went and got away with it. Something that could have been so very very bad had anything different happened? That sense of dread you feel as an adult at the shit you could have gotten into. Not just trouble, danger. Imagine what this 15 year old will be dealing with at 30. Imagine her demons. Don't kid yourself, this is not behavior that you just phase out of.

I've never met this girl, b... (Below threshold)
anonymous:

I've never met this girl, but I've had some eye-opening conversations with girls and boys a little older about what goes on. Have I witnessed this personally? Not in a person this young. (If I did, I'd have to stop it.) Yes, people do lie. In the particular setting in which these things were discussed, however, honesty is a requirement, and the people involved were not exactly proud of what they did. My BS meter works pretty well, too.

There is nothing "sad" or "pathetic" about girls like this. And this behavior is not something that I would write off as a product of sexual abuse. Low self-esteem? Possibly a little. Boredom? More likely.

The fact is that this kind of thing is more common that you might think. There are a lot of young girls that treat this kind of behavior as a game. They certainly enjoy the attention, the power they have over others, the freedom, the sense of equality with males, and the fact that they are doing something that their parents would never do.

Where are the parents? Sad to say that parenting has been in decline for a long time. Is it criminal neglect? Maybe, but I've seen a lot worse.

Is it "prudish" to be concerned about this? I don't think so. I don't think that this is a good way for people in a society to conduct themselves. Certainly it can spread diseases, and it can escalate into some very damaging behavior patterns. But I think that the real damage is in cheapening intimacy. I remember my college days as a great time, and dating was a big part of it. Look at what passes for dating on college campuses these days: it's basically an extension of Spring Break hook-ups. Many are proficient at sex, but almost all of them that I know have relationship problems. That's too bad.

Here's a pointer to the story from an Atlanta suburb. It's one of the more famous cases because it got on Frontline:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3781/is_200110/ai_n8989077

Unfortunately, there are many others.

"Girls physically mature so... (Below threshold)

"Girls physically mature sooner than boys; this girl has likely been physically a woman for several years. She has physical urges and desires. Why do we assume that a girl giving BJs is sad and pathetic, and not acting out of her own sexual desires?"

Funny, but I don't remember that being a faceless BJ-dispenser that doesn't even require a coin-entry slot to be a part of normal female physical and sexual maturity.

Does she want to explore her sexuality? Sure, many girls her age do. But being a living, breathing blow-up doll with nothing of importance except her orifices isn't a healthy expression of sexuality, and it's appalling that she's gotten to this point. And I think that someone - maybe a parent? - could point out to her that becoming that blow-up doll won't do much for any part of her development.

Funny, but I don't remem... (Below threshold)
julie:

Funny, but I don't remember that being a faceless BJ-dispenser that doesn't even require a coin-entry slot to be a part of normal female physical and sexual maturity.

Ouch! Nor is that pesky, difficult to treat, gonnorhea of the throat.

Kimberly, why do you get to... (Below threshold)

Kimberly, why do you get to decide what's "normal" and "healthy"? We don't know what was going on between these people; she was caught giving them blow jobs and that's all we know. And even if that's all they were doing, so what? I like to give blow jobs, and I think that's a normal, healthy expression of my sexuality.

Listen, my only point is that we assume that because she's fifteen she de facto is some kind of victim or shouldn't be having sex. I'm just saying that there may be a lot more to it that we aren't considering.

surprise, surprise. The se... (Below threshold)
me:

surprise, surprise. The sex topic has the most comments. I remember in Atlanta when there was that syph outbreak from kids having sex parties in HS, that all the talk show hosts did shows that were COMPLETELY outraged by it. Outraged my ass, they are titilating the audience like crazy.

[mellow] JenniferA... (Below threshold)

[mellow] Jennifer

A 'healthy' expression of sexuality is not being a juvenile prostitute. And that's exactly what this girl..hello NOT WOMAN but girl was doing. Sex as commodity.

Women with a healthy sense of self worth don't lower themselves to be a locker-room masturbatory kleenex. And girls raised with a healthy sense of what is/is not appropriate sexual behavior also act accordingly.

It is one thing for ADULTS who decide, for whatever reason, to engage in fringe sexual behavior. It is quite something else for a child. And whatever her physical attributes, a 15 y/o is still mentally immature and the LAW recognizes she is unable to competently make decisions about her sexuality. That's why even if she "willingly" started giving BJ's to the hockey COACH ..he'd be looking at felony charges.

Go talk to some child psychologists or victim advocates and find out the real and lasting harm done to children by early sexualization.

WTF is wrong with a cultural fad that wishes children to act like adults (in the irresponsible arenas) and adults to stay adolescents as long as possible?

RE: Les Nessman's post (Mar... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

RE: Les Nessman's post (March 2, 2005 12:45 PM)
How would one tell the difference?

Hmm, another good question. How about "one is on episodically every four years and the other is always on". No, wait. That's wrong... they're both always on. Sorry, Les, you've stumped the band.

RE: Darleen's post (March 2... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

RE: Darleen's post (March 2, 2005 07:15 PM)
WTF is wrong with a cultural fad that wishes children to act like adults (in the irresponsible arenas) and adults to stay adolescents as long as possible?

QOTD.

Well, and bruskly, summarized.

Gee sherard, could it end a... (Below threshold)

Gee sherard, could it end at 18? Can we let them be kids? Is that too prudish????? And this most certaintly is NOT ust between the kids and their parents. I have seen wonderful parents with kids who just gave in to the peer pressure and culture because either it was 'cool' or they just wanted the cute boyfriend.

And Dittos to what Darleen said.

Geeze, you guys.

I have four daughters. Fou... (Below threshold)

I have four daughters. Four. This sort of stuff is never far from my mind. I have one who is 15 and we watch her like a hawk and she is no shrinking violet.

I am not sure if you have children, Jennifer, but if you do and you still feel this way I think you really have a different way of looking at life than me or most folks.

Healthy sexuality is not something that a 15 year old needs to be "Expressing" with the hockey team. I do not care how you spin it, frost it, or dumb it down. It is degrading. It is not the healthy expression of anything at all. We are not talking about a 15 year old girl having sex with her boyfriend, which is stupid enough but happens all the time. We are talking about a child, yes a child, engaging in risky sexual behavior that even a mature consenting adult should really think twice about doing.

I am far from a prude and there are few things I like doing that I have no wish for my daughter to do until she is old enough to grasp to consequences that her actions can have.

Do you know how off the charts common vd of the throat has become in teens? How about genital herpes of the throat? Is enjoying giving a blow job worth that? When I was going to the doctor, pregnant for my last daughter I was waiting for a room to come clear and watched as the doctor walked out of the exam room, pale and disturbed. I could tell she either had someone sick or someone was losing a baby, something aweful. Then out walks this old woman about 70 and I am thinking it is her. Then out comes her beautiful granddaughter, maybe 15. The doctor walks up and hands her a perscription and says I'll see you in a week for a check. Here are the Valtrex samples, take these and see how you react.

Valtrex. Lovely. Herpes. Fifteen years old and a lifetime to deal with that. Never being able to have a relationship with anyone without having to share that little nugget. She gets to worry about her fertility and if she gets pregnant having an outbreak and infecting her baby. That is a great thing to look forward to for the rest of your life.

She was totally not effected. She just smiled and followed her grandmother out the door. I guess some of her friends already have it too so she is now in the clique. I do not care how anyone tries to rationalize this behavior it is wrong and self destructive.

If you have daughters and this behavior is something you would find acceptable, then I guess that is ok for your family. But for mine, it is just not acceptable. I have tried very hard to give my girls a sense of self worth, because in the end that is what saves you from making terrible mistakes. We all make small ones, we learn from those, but the big ones can hurt us and others. My father use to call it "The Light Bulb" in your head. If it is shining, then whatever you are thinking about doing, you better think again.

I guess since there are two... (Below threshold)

I guess since there are two jennifer talking about the same thing on different sides of the argument this could sound really confusing :) I am the one who thinks this behavior is insane and i'll at the "g" to not further confuse things.

I think an element being ov... (Below threshold)
Chris W:

I think an element being overlooked is the unequal treatment of the boys an dthe girl in the case. The boys were all immediately expelled, but the girl was placed on leave. Was the boys' behavior inexcusable? Yes. Was the girl's behavior any less inexcusable? Why weren't they all placed on administrative leave pending an investigation? It is automatically assumed that the boys must be guilty becuase the girl had to have been coerced.

In fact the schools position is that a ratio of 5 boys to 1 girl represents implicit coercion. Robin Robertson, the head of Milton, said "Milton Academy cannot tolerate situations in which any individual, regardless of gender, is pressured, consciously or unconsciously, to perform sexual acts." Pressured consciously or unconsciously? What does that say abotu the mindset of the administration at Milton?

I have daughters and sons-a... (Below threshold)
Just Me:

I have daughters and sons-and frankly while I don't want my daughters "expressing" their sexuality by giving 5 bj's to 5 different guys in 15 minutes, I also would prefer my sons not think of girls as nothing more than somebody to give them bj's.

Sex can be a great experience, but it comes with a lot of risks, even oral sex comes with risk. We need to teach our kids good decision making skills, and how to make good choices, and I don't care how you look at it, giving 5 guys bj's in the locker room, is not a good decision or a good choice.

Jennifer (w/o the "g"): Tha... (Below threshold)
anonymous:

Jennifer (w/o the "g"): Thanks for the post. I don't get to see good parenting very often. It's nice to know that there is some. You are 100% correct about STDs, too. One of the most memorable scesen in the Frontline story about the group of kids in Atlanta was the girl coming out of the VD clinic laughing about having syphlis. She thought it was funny. Maybe she was just happy she didn't have HIV or herpes.

Chris W: I don't know, but I hope that the administration was giving the girl the benfit of the doubt until their investigation was complete. I assume that if they thought that the girl was coerced, then they might consider that as a mitigating circumstance.

Herpes has this huge stigma... (Below threshold)
me:

Herpes has this huge stigma, but when you think about it, it is not that big a deal. I mean 50% of the population has cold sores of the mouth. 20% has cold sores of the privates. Big deal. We gotta stop acting like people's lives are over if they get it.

Jaysus on a Pony, me!... (Below threshold)

Jaysus on a Pony, me!

For one, a woman with herpes who decides to have a baby is going to have to opt for a c-section

big deal, right?

argh.

[wandering away to say serenity prayer]

Come on, Darl. You know yo... (Below threshold)
me:

Come on, Darl. You know you are attracted to bad boyz like me. But I really do mean it. The worst thing about the disease is the stigma. And it is built up more than it needs to be. I can even get good articles from docs that make that point.

About the C-sections, did not know that. Still we know that lots of C-sections are needed anyway to avoid Silky Pony law suitz...

I had one of my sailors pic... (Below threshold)
me:

I had one of my sailors pick it up while out on liberty in a foreign port, back when I was a JO. He was really bummin'. I think we need to try to reduce this incredible taboo. It does more harm then good. I mean, it's not like AIDS or syph or whatever. Society treats it like it's leprosy or something and make a bad situation worse.

But in terms of practical t... (Below threshold)
me:

But in terms of practical things: bag it, my friends. Jimmy-sack is cheap. Will also avoid becoming a daddy or having an abortion on your consience for rest of your life too...

Darleen wants to know "WTF ... (Below threshold)

Darleen wants to know "WTF is wrong with a cultural fad that wishes children to act like adults (in the irresponsible arenas) and adults to stay adolescents as long as possible?"

I'd say that a big part of it is this attitude:

"And that's exactly what this girl..hello NOT WOMAN but girl was doing. Sex as commodity.

My great-grandmother was married at 13 and had her first child at 15, which I guess makes great-grandfather a pedophile. On the other hand, I'd guess that it makes most everyone reading this a direct descendant of a pedophile, too. For whatever reason, in the last 50 to 100 years in the United States the cultural attitude has shifted in opposition to every historical trend, biological evidence and, yes, even scriptural standards.

To be clear, there are a lot of reasons, including our advanced technological economy and the extension of education that goes with it. I'm not saying that there's any going back to a system of arranged marriages at young ages or even that it's desirable to do so. But it's important to recognize that our current 'system' has inherent problems because the current rules oppose themselves to the way human bodies are designed. I'll leave it to others whether that means the rules are opposed to The Designer.

ARE YOU SURE???? What I he... (Below threshold)
firstbrokenangel:

ARE YOU SURE???? What I heard was 5 guys assaulted a woman in the locker room - gang rape.

I don't want to kick it around, thanks.


Cindy

Thanks, Tom, that was my po... (Below threshold)

Thanks, Tom, that was my point. My grandma got married at 15. So she doesn't have a normal healthy sexuality either, I guess.

Now I'll never say that a 15 y.o. giving bjs to five guys in a locker room is sensible, but that wasn't my point. My point was twofold: 1) we assume the girl is a victim. Wake up. She might not be. and 2) 15 year olds are NOT CHILDREN. They are physically mature. They have all these hormones and sexual urges. It's only recently that our society has decided that teenagers shouldn't be treated like adults. Before this century we had no concept for "adolescence." There were kids, and there were adults. And very little in between.

Re: whether I have kids, I always love that "If you had kids you'd feel differently thing." Let me tell you, I don't have kids, but I have a seven year old and five year old sibling, both sisters; and I don't want to even think about one of them giving five guys a BJ in the locker room at 15. But if I heard about one of their friends doing it, I also wouldn't immediately assume they were a victim or had bad parents because I was 15 not that long ago, and I was a horny little devil. So I'm just saying, we automatically assume this girl has no self esteem etc. BUT don't give teenagers any healthy outlet for their sexual desires, so what do we expect? We tell them to wait til their older but can't really tell them why, and expect them to just accept that. Sorry, folks, but no one ever learns from someone else's experiences.

RE: me's post (March 2, 200... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

RE: me's post (March 2, 2005 10:22 PM)
The worst thing about the disease [syphlis] is the stigma.

Um, no. The worst thing about the disease is the disease.

I mean 50% of the population has cold sores of the mouth. 20% has cold sores of the privates. Big deal. We gotta stop acting like people's lives are over if they get it.

You are woefully and dangerously misinformed. Please cite your references. I believe you are mistaking the chancre from syphilis to the cold sore of herpes, two entirely different animals with vastly different outcomes.

Incidence of syphilis - 36,000 cases reported each year
Hardly 50%.

Incidence of herpes - seroprevalence of 21.9% which is blood sera expression and not active sore which would be much less
Again, hardly 50%.

You are spreading false information and trivializing a serious disease. (Speaking of trivia - None other than Al Capone died from complications of syphilis and experienced demetia from it while alive.)

RE: me's post (March 2, 200... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

RE: me's post (March 2, 2005 10:25 PM)
I mean, it's not like AIDS or syph or whatever.

Oops! Missed that sentence. My bad.

tom & jennifer [mellow]... (Below threshold)

tom & jennifer [mellow]

What can I say when you don't seem to see any significant difference between marriage and promiscuity?

Is that all sex is to you? A "community" activity ranked somewhere between going to the gym and renting porn?

And Tom...get a clue about pedophilia, ok? Pedophiles or ephebophiles don't marry their victims, because it's all about THE SEX and their turn on is pre-pubscent or adolescent juveniles.

Gads y'all got some really twisted ideas about sex and marriage.

feh

Gads y'all got some real... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Gads y'all got some really twisted ideas about sex and marriage.

I don't think they were really talking about marriage Darleen. I think the point was the shift in attitude over time about when people become sexually mature. A 15 year old female being married with children was perfectly normal for most of human history, and for us to assume that people of that same age today are not sexual beings is foolish. While I do think that teenagers today are oversexed due to constant barrage of sex in the media, to think that they are all downy innocents who could only engage in sexual behavior if they were forced or abused is contrary to our biological makeup. That was the point they were making, but nice job trying to distort it into being about marriage and promiscuity being the same thing.

Personally I couldn't care less about rich boarding school kids giving each other or getting hummers in the locker room. It's just preparation for Congress anyway.

RE: mantis's post (March 3,... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

RE: mantis's post (March 3, 2005 02:52 AM)
Personally I couldn't care less about rich boarding school kids giving each other or getting hummers in the locker room. It's just preparation for Congress anyway.

Um, I see a typo, mantis. Didn't you mean President, or was that just a misdirection?

There's no way this girl wa... (Below threshold)
LJD:

There's no way this girl was in any way coerced. If you look at the repeated instances of this behavior, she has "issues". The boys should be counseled on their behavior, but not expelled.

So it was because of her self-esteem problem, not TV? Where exactly do you think that self-esteem problem came from?

Didn't you mean Presiden... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Didn't you mean President, or was that just a misdirection?

Well, sure I saw the Clinton joke, but it's just so damn obvious. Plus they can't all be president.

(From the Jennifer with Kid... (Below threshold)

(From the Jennifer with Kids)

I didn't once say this girl was a victim. I do not subscribe to the culture of victims. That is the big problem we have right now in this country. Two generations of people with ZERO coping skills.

I thought we were talking about the behavior not the schools arbitrary decision to discipline the students. Frankly i think the action of the school will change little and the guys will go on and find another petri dish and the girl will move on to another group of boys. Look at all the attention she got out of this. Hell, her parents will probably double the tuition and send her to an even more exclusive school. That way she can give blow jobs to more wealthy cock. Money fixes it all,right?

The parents will blame the boys and the school for not supervising and totally absolve themselves for the crime of sending your kids off to be raised by someone else.

"If you had kids you'd feel differently thing."

Cliche or whatever you want to call it, it is true. When you have kids you will immediately know that. I have a friend who sounded just like you before she had kids. Now she sings a different tune.

I understand you are young, we all were at one time. There is a big picture here that is not clearly visible until you are older. I do not say that to be condescending, I say it because it is a simple reality. People surviving to adulthood is just sheer dumb luck, but amazingly most of us get there relatively unscathed. That is no longer true. In the past kids would get drunk at the prom or perhaps have sex before they should, that is considered mundane when considered to the Reality Porn going on in schools today.

Healthy sexuality keeps getting mentioned over and over. I think that is what all our goals as parents are, for our kids to have a healthy sense of sexuality when they grow up. What we want is for them to reach a level of maturity that lets them approach sex with a healthy perspective not recklessness and abandon.

A 15 year old female bei... (Below threshold)
julie:

A 15 year old female being married with children was perfectly normal for most of human history, and for us to assume that people of that same age today are not sexual beings is foolish.

Maybe, someone should research whether the 15 year old knocked up with her fourth kid felt it was perfectly normal. It may have been the way things were at one time, but it doesn't necessarily make it right. And for you to assume being married off at age 13 to some geezer has anything to do with sexual pleasure for the female, is foolish.

I assumed nothing about gee... (Below threshold)
mantis:

I assumed nothing about geezers and sexual pleasure. I was merely making the point that for much of human history, when females and males became sexually mature, they were considered mature enough to be married, and therefore sexually active. Insisting that people are not sexually mature until eighteen is a recent development, and one not based on our biology. Mental and emotional maturity are of course a different matter altogether.

Mantis, you made me laugh o... (Below threshold)

Mantis, you made me laugh out loud.

Other Jennifer: thanks, granny. I never said anything about my age. I'm nearly thirty; while I know that's not "old" I'm certainly not a 15 year old trying to justify my own horny existence.

Mantis made my point better than I could: I was merely pointing out that this idea of fifteen year olds not being capable of making life-changing decisions and/or deciding to have sex is a recent invention, and goes against biology. I withhold judgment about this girl because I don't know her.

I think our culture is "oversexed" to the extent that courting has fallen by the wayside in favor of hookups. That's too bad; I'd rather be courted than have someone trying to get in my knickers all the time. I also would prefer the old dating rules where the guy pays and opens the door, because deep inside I am a spoiled princess. But is all the sex stuff necessarily horrible? Eh.

Marriage is a seperate issue because only the two individuals involved (and their church, perhaps) can make it "sacred." After all, it doesn't matter whether I beleive in fidelity and don't believe in divorce if my spouse doesn't adhere to the same beliefs - I could still end up divorced for some other woman. I also think it's perfectly possible to be "promiscuous" (whatever your individual definition of THAT might be) and still end up having a sacred marriage. Maybe many of you think that is an inherent contradiction, but I believe in forgiveness, maturity, and learning from our experiences.

I won't go so far as to say, though, that the girl absolutely was not exploited, because five on one looks bad -- but. I wouldn't immediately jump to the conclusion, is all. When females hit sexual maturity they like to experiment with their newfound power over males. That's about as natural as it gets, and whether its healthy or not depends entirely on the individual. I'm just repeating myself now so I'll stop.

Back to the basics. This g... (Below threshold)

Back to the basics. This girl is effed up. This is abnormal, unhealthy behavior for anyone. Period. I had two sisters, as well as younger Jennifer, and it wouldn't have bothered me one bit if they gave BJ's to the entire fleet. It would only have pissed me off because of the stigma I would have to have endured as their sister. But then, THEN I had my own daughter and things WERE different.

Our kids are being desensitized to sex. It doesn't hold the aura of being sacred anymore. I'm no prude either, but to separate sex from love just ain't right. And that's what is happening in our society. They're being told it's alright to have sexual feelings. And it IS alright, but they're also being told it's okay to experiment. Well, now I have a problem. It's not okay because in this day and age, it can have mortal consequences. Still, with the various and sundry diseases out there, they still haven't gotten the message that oral sex transmits disease too. Amazing, isn't it? Ask any of them if they'd stick a needle in their arm and they'll say, "Ewww, I could die from disease." Well, stick a penis in your mouth and you could die too.

As far as the "old days" and getting married off at 13 or even younger? Think about it. Girls couldn't work the farm like boys. You didn't see parents marrying off their pre-teen boys, did you? Hell no! It didn't have a damn thing to do with being considered "sexually mature". It was practical to get the daughter married off. One less mouth to feed that couldn't pull a plow. And when the woman gets old and her husband dies, she's a real burden again. Old men got to be "wise elders" and women were disposable.

This whole thing about sexuality in our children hasn't changed in a millenia, just our approach to it. We want more for our kids so we teach them (or some of us do) that responsibilities come along with it. If those same pre-teen girls getting married off way back when had engaged in sex without being married they were ostracized the same as they are in some cases today. No, things haven't changed except in the minds of the most vocal few trying to justify what has always been considered "questionable" behavior.

In defense of the school. Maybe they have reason to believe that she *was* coerced. Maybe not. We don't have all the XXX details. However, this young girl needs help.

I like how the discussion h... (Below threshold)

I like how the discussion has somehow moved to "this is okay, because back in the day, people married at 13." Were 13-year-old girls also servicing their schoolmates, five at a pop, back in the day?

Doubt it.

I understand that 15-year-old girls have sexual urges. But the mere possession of those urges doesn't give girls free license to express them, nor should they be encouraged to. Girls that age also have the urge to defecate, but they aren't exactly encouraged to do that everywhere, in any fashion, are they?

I find it fascinating that our society has made sexual urges so sacred that even young adults and old children (whose sexual urges are unfocused, immature, and sometimes very strong) must be allowed to express those urges in any way, at any time, and God help those of us who might try to interfere, or label some urges are more normal than others.

JenniferG mentioned "What we want is for them to reach a level of maturity that lets them approach sex with a healthy perspective not recklessness and abandon." That requires that we sometimes stifle their precious sexual urges. And no one's ever been able to explain to my satisfaction why it would be so damaging to discourage 15-year-olds from having sex.

[quote]And why punish any o... (Below threshold)
Stan25:

[quote]And why punish any of the boys? Do we really expect that any 17 year-old would say no to a free BJ?[/quote]

I think that this a blatant case of sexual discrimination. The boys were singled out for their gender, not for what they did. Where does it say that females are better, because of their gender. It is the radial lesbo-feminists that are making a mountain out of a molehill. This kind of thing will keep going on between teenagers until the end of time.

I think that sexual maturit... (Below threshold)

I think that sexual maturity is being confused with mental maturity. I personally do not think that anything I said make me sound like a grannie. This is not an argument for or against promiscuity either, it is about the promiscuity of a 15 year old girl. Not just screwing her boyfriend which happens all the time and while not ideal for anyone involved it is still entirely different than taking on the damn hockey team.

Can we at least agree that group sex at 15 is not right? Everyone at fifteen thinks they are mature. They are almost always full of shit. Sure there are kids mature enough at 15 to raise siblings because they have to be the mature one. Do you really think this girl is that type of girl? I doubt it. Her actions scream immaturity, not maturity. I read an article about the abortion rate with girls in these communities where these sex parties are going out of control. They have no idea who the daddy is, they do not care either, they just have it sucked out like passing a freakin' peach pit.

I fail to see how behavior like this leads to anything positive. There is not next step to this scenario that makes it healthy. Call me a grannie if you want. I am far from a prude. I am just disgusted and disillusioned with things like this.

Can we at least agree th... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Can we at least agree that group sex at 15 is not right?

I certainly agree with that. I think there is a big difference between biological, sexual maturity and mental or emotional maturity. This girl clearly lacks the latter, for whatever reason.

I only referred to you as "... (Below threshold)

I only referred to you as "granny" because you brought up the subject of my age. It was kind of a joke.

It's funny you mention abortion; I'd still rather have a fifteen year old giving BJs than having sex. I can't agree that group sex is wrong for anyone but myself, but that's because I take a libertarian view about other people's sex lives and mind my own business.

I will note, however, that I assume this girl is mentally very immature, solely based on her school -- wealthy kids, in my experience, tend to be pretty sheltered and isolated from the "real" world; tend to be indulged and don't have to take much responsibility. In actuality I pretty much agree with what you guys are all saying: This girl's a slut, she's got serious problems, and her parents are probably not good parents. But I just hated to see everyone assuming she's a victim and 15 year olds having sex is so horrible (even multiple bjs). I like to be the devil's advocate. But in all likelihood, if either of my little sisters pulled this -- well, they wouldn't. We have great parents, they both have a pretty evolved sense of self, and would never be unsupervised in a situation where they could give BJs to the hockey team. Plus, no daughter of my father would ever consider it. Sorry to cause y'all so much stress, I just hate how we treat teenagers as if they can't make decisions. I think you're wrong that most fifteen year old can't make these kinds of decisions.

Which is why I'm in favor of executing minors who commit cold-blooded murders, like the kid in this week's SCt decision. Seems totally OT, but it isn't -- either we think kids can make these distinctions, or we don't. We can't execute them but say they are victims if they have group sex; we can't say they shouldn't have to notify parents if they decide to have an abortion (though I imagine you, Jenniferg, would be in favor of parental notification laws, so that doesn't really apply to you) -- thus stating they can make the decision to abort a fetus, but are not capable of deciding whether to service the entire hockey team.

You said it was perfectly n... (Below threshold)
julie:

You said it was perfectly normal for girls to be married off young. What's normal about no sexual pleasure? And, because it was practiced for much of human history does not make it right, good, or normal. Insisting that because a young girl ovulates, she is sexually mature, i.e., ready to start bearing children, is not based on biology. Maternal and infant mortality rates are extremely high for young girls.

Hey julie, just cuz someone... (Below threshold)

Hey julie, just cuz someone married young doesn't mean they didn't derive pleasure from sex. The two don't necessarily correlate. And, just because we've come up with it recently doesn't make it "right" "good" or "normal" either. "Sexual maturity" in the physical sense -- i.e., able to bear children, capable of sexual desire, capable of sexual arousal -- is exactly predicated on biology. And maternal/infant mortality ratesd have nothing to do with whether or not someone is capable of deciding to give bjs to a group of guys.

Thank God Hal Clement (who ... (Below threshold)
Justthisguy:

Thank God Hal Clement (who used to teach there) is dead now and doesn't have to put up with that silliness!

You said it was perfectl... (Below threshold)
mantis:

You said it was perfectly normal for girls to be married off young. What's normal about no sexual pleasure? And, because it was practiced for much of human history does not make it right, good, or normal. Insisting that because a young girl ovulates, she is sexually mature, i.e., ready to start bearing children, is not based on biology. Maternal and infant mortality rates are extremely high for young girls.

I said it was normal, not that it is normal. Norms change. It's still pretty common in other countries. I also never said normal is necessarily good or right. It is based on biology. Those mortality rates are high compared to older women, due to the fact that pregnant teenagers often don't take care of themselves, not because their bodies aren't capable. This of course shows that they are not emotionally mature enough to be having sex in the first place, but physically they are more capable of bearing children than they will ever be. Teenage girls are more fertile than older women and are more likely to become pregnant.

Jennifer: And just because ... (Below threshold)
madge's poodle:

Jennifer: And just because someone might have doesn't mean that most did or that it is normal, necessary, or right to marry girls off at age 13. Unless you think being 15 and pregnant with your third or fourth kid, all breastfed, little or no medical care, and your daily chores makes you soooo hot! Biology would favor the ability to bear live children and survive childbirth. The higher maternal and infant mortality rates for young girls indicates it does not. The discussion between me and mantis had focused on a different aspect of the debate. However, I see you are intent on bringing it back to what appears most important to you: giving bjs to guys.

Oh, no, my poor hurt feelin... (Below threshold)

Oh, no, my poor hurt feelings! You certainly put me in my place. I'd better slink home and give some blow jobs. That'll teach me!

"JenniferG mentioned "What ... (Below threshold)

"JenniferG mentioned "What we want is for them to reach a level of maturity that lets them approach sex with a healthy perspective not recklessness and abandon."

I don't think we're in disagreement here except that I think the 'solution' is to demand more maturity of teenagers not continue to demand less (as witness Supreme Court decision on juvenile death penalty). This is being looked at as a bunch of little boys and a little girl who either didn't know anybody or were possible victims (of TV, low self-esteem, whatever...). The only thing anyone here was a victim of was bad parenting and lack of judgment and self-discipline. And I simply won't concede that if teens were mature enough to raise families 50 to 100 hundred years ago that something has changed to make them "children" incapable of taking responsibility for their actions today.

My fingers typed faster tha... (Below threshold)

My fingers typed faster than my brain. That should have read "...didn't know any better..." not "didn't know anybody".

Darleen: Miss Primness and ... (Below threshold)

Darleen: Miss Primness and Virtue, do you realize what your acronym "WTF" stands for?

Tom,everyone knows... (Below threshold)

Tom,

everyone knows that!

Who's The Fool!

:P




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