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Daddy's Girl

The father of "Monica" is speaking out now, as yet another incident is uncovered.

"She's a super kid," he says. "She is a good kid that has made a couple of mistakes."

So, let's sum up these "couple of mistakes" for those just joining us:

"Monica," 15, is (or was) a new student at one of the most prestigious prep schools in the country, which has a history as a "feeder" school for Harvard. And how did she try to fit in?

1) On Saturday, January 22, Monica met four boys in a dorm room. While a fifth stood watch, she serviced all four of them.

2) (latest revelation) On Sunday, January 23, she met three boys in the locker room and pleasured all three of them.

3) On Monday, January 24, in the incident that broke the story, she met five hockey players in the locker room and entertained all five of them within fifteen minutes, but were interrupted by two other students, who reported them.

4) At a "Sweet 16" birthday party at a Boston hotel, Monica and another girl were greeting guests at the door while topless. Later, she accomodated at least one boy in front of the other guests.

(I hope this is the last revelation. I'm running out of polite euphemisms for Lewinskys.)

And she's fifteen years old. Fifteen. Years. Old. And attending a school that speaks of educating and training our country's future leaders.

And her father, who's just seen $32,500 go down the toilet, insists that she's a "super girl" who "has made a couple of mistakes."

God help our future.

J.

Update: Reader Mark A. points out that the father quoted in the Boston Globe story, and reprinted above, was NOT "Monica's" father. Rather, he was the father of the girl in whose honor the "Sweet Sixteen" party was being held. I do recall Monica's father being quoted when the story first broke, saying words to the effect of "she'll be fine" and other such sentiments, but I can't seem to find a precise citation. My apologies to the confusion I caused, and my thanks to Mark A. for pointing out my error.


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Comments (73)

Where were these girls when... (Below threshold)
Eric Blair:

Where were these girls when I was going to college?

Ok, that 1st comment was to... (Below threshold)
Eric Blair:

Ok, that 1st comment was too glib.

However, in 1981, there was clique of girls at my Catholic High School who were having a contest to see who could "know" (in the biblical fashion), the most guys during the school year.

Their antics just didn't end up as an article in the newspaper.

I can't imagine that my high school (smack dab in the middle of the midwest) was particularly unique.

Stuff like this goes on all the time, and we just don't hear about it.

Perhaps *that* is the take away from this all.

I guess I led a sheltered l... (Below threshold)
julie:

I guess I led a sheltered life. Nothing like that happened when I was in high school.

I'm a bit confused by the story. Another girl's parents rented a hotel room so she could have a 'sleepover.' They go out to dinner and when they return, the girls had returned before them and were drinking with guys? How'd that happen? The parents admonish them and kick the guy with the beer out and go to bed?

Why wd you rent a hotel room? Is this a day school or a boarding school? If it's a boarding school, why does she need a sleep over? If it's a day school, why wasn't it at their home? Why would the father think everyone would leave because he told them to? Are these people nuts?

I thought this prep school ... (Below threshold)
Red Fog:

I thought this prep school had Robin Williams inspiring them to ready poetry in a cave ...

Fogger

Julie: Yes, they are. ... (Below threshold)

Julie: Yes, they are.

Denial is a beautiful thing. And to the "Dad," I bet the guys thing she is a "super girl" too.

His daughter's mistakes just involve whoring out her body, that is no reflection on anything he has done or failed to do though. Hell, he spent all that money to give her the best education right?

As long as she gets into Harvard, that is all that matters. Who cares if she has a few STDs and a handful of abortions in the process.

F*cking absurd.

Said it before, I went to a... (Below threshold)
Faith+1:

Said it before, I went to a small high school and we had a school slut that had slept with most of the football team including 4 of them in one train. Not all of the girls did things like that but there was always one and that was 25 years ago. When my younger sister and brother went through there were still some slut sleeping around with lots of guys.

Julie, I'd bet it happened in your high school but you just didn't know about it. Kids having sex at 15 isn't a new thing.

I do agree the parents have a lot to do with it too. My own daughter is off to college now and yeah, she knew of a couple of "those girls" in her school too.

As her father I never let her go the "hot" parties or the after-prom-hotel-sleepover. I was the totally un-cool parent who asked who everyone was, where they were going and when they would be back etc. She wasn't happy about it then but she's happy about it now. She's going to an Ivy league school, doing well, and didn't need to be a slut to be popular.

I'm sure I made a million mistakes along the way but the ones I made were made while trying to do the right thing. It sure as hell wasn't because I turned a blind eye.

Come on, Jay. What's a fat... (Below threshold)
Mark A.:

Come on, Jay. What's a father supposed to say?--"My daughter's a filthy ho-bag piece of shit loser who will never amount to anything in life?"

She's fifteen. She made some mistakes--from the reports it sounds like a bad week. For all we know, she might be a "super girl" in every other respect.

You're judging a 15-year-old girl when you know virtually nothing about her--except for a string of promiscuity. Why not start a movement to have her stoned to death?

You're also judging her loving father because he's telling the world she's not a piece of shit. Might as well stone him, too.

Thankfully I have two boys,... (Below threshold)
dodgeman:

Thankfully I have two boys, cause no Dad in the world wants to address the news media about his daughter's oral talents.

As for widespread? It's been 20+ years since I went to high school, yet I remember the chick that slept with most (if not all) of the varsity football team. We worked at the local supermarket, the joke would be whether or not she wore a skirt to work on the weekend, as she'd be too sore to wear the tight pants in fashion at that time.

Sounds like everyone here m... (Below threshold)

Sounds like everyone here might be interested in reading Leora Tanenbaum's "Slut! Growing Up Female with a Bad Reputation." It's an interesting read; not necessarily on this topic -- it's more about women who get labeled as "sluts" and what effect that has on their lives.

Just a suggestion; I enjoyed reading it.

I have a friend who has six... (Below threshold)

I have a friend who has six boys. He is on of 8 boys himself. In something like 4 generations of his father's side of the family there has been only 3 girls born. All of the boys have boys.

He said to me one time, "I do not know how you are going to do it, Jennifer." Shaking his head. "God knew what he was doing when he gave me boys, I would have chained a daughter to the radiator just to keep her away from boys."

His favorite words of wisdom, "Boys are easier to raise. With a boy you just have one dick to worry about, his. With girls there are an infinite number of dicks to worry about."

With girls like this, one could say the reverse is true as well.

What's a father supposed... (Below threshold)
Steve L.:

What's a father supposed to say?

"No comment."

His statement underscores a problem with parents today. Rather than admit that they just might not have taught their kids the right values, they blame everyone else for their children's mistakes. "She has made a couple of mistakes?" Bull. She played the skin flute with at least 6 different guys in a 3 day period. A mistake is forgetting to bring your math homework to class. Tooting a bunch of guys horns is far, far worse than that.

You haven't even begun to e... (Below threshold)
bullwinkle:

You haven't even begun to explore the vast supply of euphemisms for Lewinkys. Several come to mind, including the Oreck, Hoover, Dyson, Electrolux, and of course my favorite, the ever popular Eureka!.

I notice that all the guys ... (Below threshold)

I notice that all the guys here seem to remember "the girl" who slept with everyone, but she didn't sleep with them.
Hmmm...
Did it ever occur to you that THE BOYS WERE LYING????
I mean did you see the sexual acts take place?
Boys lie all the time.

But now, they don't have too, I guess.

I think I will go pack up now and move into the mountains.

Steve L--WTF?What ... (Below threshold)
Mark A.:

Steve L--WTF?

What do you know about the father and whether he taught her the right values? What information do you have that supports your blame? What about his statement leads you to believe he is blaming anyone other than himself and his daughter? Nothing. Nothing at all.

His statement suggests that his daughter's recent conduct is an aberation--and it may be. Something obviously went haywire, and lets hope it is corrected before permanent harm results. But a week or so of promiscuity, especially at age 15, should not define her for the rest of her life--especially in her father's eyes. Forgive the guy for wanting the public to know that, but for this recent activity, she is a "super" girl.

Fortunatly, the world is not run by the JT's and SteveL's of the world. I know a few very brilliant and successful judges and law school professors who lead very pure and charitable lives, but also had temporary bouts of promiscuity when they were younger. They overcame whatever demons led them astray, and they were fortunate enough to not have any JT's and SteveL's perpetuating their mistakes and judging them. Let Monica learn and recover from this.

I am a father of a 15-year-old girl. If she were involved in something like this, I would be devastated. But "tooting a bunch of guys horns" during a burst of promiscuity would not erase all the good she has acheived in her live, and it should not prevent her from continuing to the the otherwise great person she is. Nor would it affect my love for her.

It seems obvious that JT and SteveL are not parents.

She is a whore with no dece... (Below threshold)
Rob Hackney:

She is a whore with no decencey, and I'd say the parents are liars and probably abused her in some way sexual.

The boys should be ashamed of themselves and if it's agaisnt the law, charge them.

Morals have been thrown out with WINDOW with all the PC WHINING LIBERAL ELITE PROPAGANDA that goes on these days.

I remember when DIGNITY and RESPECT were IMPORTANT.

The worst is in the last li... (Below threshold)

The worst is in the last line of the article, concerning the "morality" of our children.

"Hooking up" and "orals" are not sex, see...The real Bill & Monica got that message across. We refused to listen to that argument, but our kids heard it loud & clear.

Frankly, I'm not understand... (Below threshold)
Sherard:

Frankly, I'm not understanding the fascination here with someone else's family situation. Get over it folks. It's none of your goddam business.

You just knew from the very... (Below threshold)
Red:

You just knew from the very beginning of this story when it came out that there was more to it. Having gone to a New England Prep School when the father initially protested and called for heads to roll, I was just waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Needless to say, didn't think it would go this far. Most Prep Schools and the parents with big bucks do a good job of covering up these stories.

So this is what $33K gets you with an education these days. I would dare say this was a learning experience.

I too am outraged, like all... (Below threshold)
minnie:

I too am outraged, like all moral, Christian Americans, that in this day and age such perversions as oral sodomy between a man and a woman, or a boy and a girl, are still allowed by Law. Only Liberals and Democrats could be behind such a despicable practice, and they will all burn in Hell. We all know that Bill Klinton started all this evil off when he actually put his penis in a woman's mouth. Yuck. I'll have you know such things would never take place on President Bush's watch, or for that matter anywhere in the GOP family, and that's why we have such long-lasting, harmonious marriages.

Well, I'm proud of my sons.... (Below threshold)
Proud Dad:

Well, I'm proud of my sons. They've been in Scouts since they were young, and their mom and I raised them to see girls as people, not as objects.

Sure, we think girls are very pretty - but also special, and to be respected - and I haven't hidden the fact that I think God did great in creating girls with beauty, but much more than just that.

Thankfully, my sons take the whole "honor" concept seriously, and, like me, they know you can't feel good inside if you've used a person.

I imagine this young girl wants to feel sexy, and I understand that. The pity, though, is that she never learned that she could be sexy and pure at the same time (ok, I guess I just made myself a flame target for using the word "pure").

To those who see no problem in this, would you have a problem with it if this girl were your wife or girlfriend? Being promiscuous at a young age makes it more likely that such conduct will continue into adulthood, even after marriage.

We all are becoming who we will be. This girl is becoming the woman she will be for the rest of her life. And I doubt she'll look back on this with fondness.

Then again, if we're just animals, with no moral underpinnings and no obligations to one another, who cares?

Great, lucid argument there... (Below threshold)
Proud Dad:

Great, lucid argument there, Minnie. Setting up straw men, I see.

I'm not here to defend this... (Below threshold)

I'm not here to defend this girl, her behavior or her parents efforts to instill morals in their daughter. However, does seem like several of us are awfully quick to judge without direct knowledge of her or her upbringing. I have a couple kids and pray that my wife and I are doing well raising them. I am not naive enough to believe we are the only influence on our kids. We've had friends whose kids went goofy as they went through their teenage years. Just saying if you haven't raised kids don't assume the parents raised her to be a whore. Sometimes results don't match the effort.

Those kinds of sexual antic... (Below threshold)
hobgoblin:

Those kinds of sexual antics from a 15 year old are frequently the result of sexual abuse.

Could have been by anyone.

I'm just sayin', that's all.

Friends with Benefits. Got... (Below threshold)
Justin B:

Friends with Benefits. Gotta love the term. So what happens when 15 year old girls don't want to go a little farther with a guy? What happens when he wants the entire package plan, not just the BJ? Does he instead of letting her go Monica on him decide to go Kobe on her?

Or maybe she decides to have sexual intercourse with 5 guys instead of just give BJ's. Surely just giving BJs cannot be that exciting. She needs to get her groove on too. So does she get HIV, Herpes? Syphilis? Does she make them use a condom? She probably is on the pill so she doesn't need a condom. Or maybe she isn't on the pill either.

Well, Dad, they are in Massachusetts. She may even get a free "I Had an Abortion" T-shirt if she goes to the right clinic. And what does this yield for her and the boys?

A value system that depicts women as nothing more than prostitutes or porn stars, possible children out of wedlock, possible STD's, and in the end it is what is causing the increasing popularity of unfaithful marriages. So Hockey boy is building a track record of hooking up whenever he needs a little somethin' somethin' and when he gets married later in life, that track record serves as guide that says, "Who cares about Fidelity".

Please explain how this is good for society. How does this lead to women's equality when she is perpetuating a society that sees women as subservient to pleasuring men. Hockey boy will probably be nailing his secretary and think the only use for a woman is typing and oral sex.

I mean, not that we are allowed to see a society like this as bad. Because I am sure that this is what society is supposed to be like. Sounds enlightened to me.

jenniferg:"His fav... (Below threshold)
Mike:

jenniferg:

"His favorite words of wisdom, 'Boys are easier to raise. With a boy you just have one dick to worry about, his. With girls there are an infinite number of dicks to worry about.'"

Crude, but very true!

...

From the original post:

"On Saturday, January 22, Monica met four boys in a dorm room. While a fifth stood watch, she serviced all four of them."

Kinda makes you wonder what was in it for the fifth guy later on ...

Another chapter in the ongoing legacy of Bill Clinton.

I'm usually pretty reserved about what I "blame" on politicians, since there are usually so many ouside factors that affect a policy decision and its outcomes. But in this case I have no reservations. Bill Clinton's inexcusable behavior, coupled with his denial that it was "sexual relations" and the trivializing of what he did by popular media and entertainment figures has directly led to the explosion of this behavior among teens.

A few weeks ago, NBC News ran a segment on the popularity of fellatio with jr. high and high school kids. Interestingly, girls said overwhelmingly that they didn't really like it, but did it anyway because they wanted boys to like them. And they thought it would keep boys out of their pants.

So after 30 years of women's lib and the sexual revolution, we're still back to teenage girls just trying to impress boys.

(sigh)

~sarcasm du jour begins ... (Below threshold)
-S-:

~sarcasm du jour begins here~

"But, but, what about, you know, Joe Gannon?!?

~end of sarcasm...~

I'm curious if "minnie" and... (Below threshold)
-S-:

I'm curious if "minnie" and "me" are, you know, connected.

His statement underscore... (Below threshold)

His statement underscores a problem with parents today. Rather than admit that they just might not have taught their kids the right values, they blame everyone else for their children's mistakes. "She has made a couple of mistakes?" Bull. She played the skin flute with at least 6 different guys in a 3 day period. A mistake is forgetting to bring your math homework to class. Tooting a bunch of guys horns is far, far worse than that.

"I'm sorry, daddy! The first guy's penis just mistakenly went into my mouth. Then so did the next guy's. And then more guys' penises. It was all by mistake!"

Mark A.:It seems ... (Below threshold)
Steve L.:

Mark A.:
It seems obvious that JT and SteveL are not parents.

Amazing. You accuse me of making judgments without knowing the facts, but then you did the exact same thing.

Actually, I am the father of a 17-year old girl as well as two older boys. All three of them would understand absolutely and without a doubt that the girl' behavior was wrong.

You are right. I know absolutely nothing about this girl's upbringing. A "super kid" just doesn't start engaging in that type of behavior. It was likely a building storm. I don't know if the parents were oblivious to it or they saw the danger and just couldn't do anything about it. This is not promiscuous.

Let's speak a little about the parents as well. They let their daughter have a birthday party in a hotel room. There were at least 20 kids in the room. Allegedly, the parents were in the room next door and did not know any of this was going on. Just to be clear. Their 16-year old daughter was answering the door topless and they did not know it was going on. When kids from our church come over to watch movies, we constantly stick our heads in to make sure nothing untoward is happening. It irritates them I am sure, but they know that we are around and paying attention.

Those of us who went to SIN... (Below threshold)

Those of us who went to SINGLE SEX schools know what comes of coed boarding schools. WEEKENDS were for girls -- there wasn't time for them during the week.

Though now that I think of ... (Below threshold)

Though now that I think of it, the only scandal in my 6 years of multiple boys being caught* with a single girl happened on a weeknight - after a play rehearsal . . . .

*they were doing it in a room with a window. At night. Without a curtain. With the lights on. The teacher wasn't snooping - just walking by.

Thanks for responding Steve... (Below threshold)
Mark A.:

Thanks for responding SteveL. Sorry for the parenthood remark. It sounds as though your kids are living up to the values you taught them, or at least they haven't been caught yet (it's likely the former).

And, you're probably right that a storm has been brewing for some time. Without knowing the facts, I suspect that storm has nothing to do with sex or lack or morals or a failure to instill the values that I think you and I agree upon. Most likely the girl knows right from wrong, moral from immoral, and disregarded those notions for self-destructive reasons you and I will never know. Or, maybe she's just a slut and her father never bothered to spend the time to find out. I don't know, do you?

As for the birthday party, it was not thrown by "Monica's" parents--at least that's how I read the article. Perhaps one could argue that parents who send their kids to boarding schools should personally chaparone them when they attend birthday parties that are ostensibly chaparoned by the birthday girl's parents--but that's not realistic, is it?

Bottom line: Clearly what the girl did was wrong. Did she do it from lack of moral upbringing? Did she do it as a result of underlying pain or anger? Is it from self loathing? A combination of the above? Who knows. Is it the parent's fault? Who knows.

But this much seems clear: Her actions do not seem malicious. She did not lie, cheat or steal. She did not cause physical harm to others or their property. There is no evidence that she has ever had a malicous or hateful bone in her body. She may well have been an exemplary "super" kid until these recent incidents, and she could very well turn into a "super" adult if she overcomes whatever made her suck the team--and if the world will forget about this and leave her alone.

Lets hope she doesn't become a single mom who drops out of school and drowns her lifetime of pain in alcohol and drugs. That doesn't have to happen, and I don't wanna pay for it.

If young girls do not get a... (Below threshold)
kgowen:

If young girls do not get affection and love from their fathers from an early age, they will discover when they hit puberty that they now have the right equipment to get the male attention they long for. Bottom line is: it's the father's fault. If he had been doing his job as a father, loving, protecting, and nurturing his daughter from infancy, she wouldn't have turned into a turbo slut. Which is the reason for his lame "she's a super kid" comment. He doesn't want to accept the responsibility for his manifest failure as a father. If there is villain in this whole sordid episode, it's him.

All I can add here is that ... (Below threshold)
-S-:

All I can add here is that if this ever went on in the highschool I attended (along with any other), I never knew about it. We were all so well parented and supervised, even in single family homes. A wild weekend evening was going to the drive in movie on a double date. But, that was the height of excitement.

About this one girl's father, he appears to be (1.) avoiding the obvious and (2.) avoiding the obvious for unexplained/unrevealed reasons.

A little concern and outrage would be more reasonable by any parent about any child's similar behavior, not an attempt to rationalize and/or "make nice" about very bad behavior, at least very troubling behavior by a fifteen year old.

To suggest that this sort of thing is acceptable, as in something that happens everywhere, no, it isn't either. The child (she's fifteen, she's a child) is displaying serious emotional problems and a reasonable response by her father would be to acknowledge the unacceptability of what she's doing/done, to indicate a plan to support her in her future activities that WILL BE modified from what they have been. I'm thinking, based upon this one statement by the father, that the father's got a likely responsibility here...no parent is completely responsible for any child's psychology (could be some other adult influence of the bad kind on this child's behavior, we don't know), but the parents are a reasonably good place to start looking when trying to figure out why a/any child does what they do.

This isn't normal behavior, what this child has done. It's indicative of some serious emotional issues.

As also the boys involved, which many here have avoided discussing.

"I'm sorry, daddy! The f... (Below threshold)
Steve L.:

"I'm sorry, daddy! The first guy's penis just mistakenly went into my mouth. Then so did the next guy's. And then more guys' penises. It was all by mistake!"

This made me think of a line from a movie (I can't remember the name of it.) A guy has been arrested for trafficing drugs and the cops ask him about his boss. The guy says, "He had a terrible accident. He fell on a knife four times."

I think this stuff is a lot... (Below threshold)

I think this stuff is a lot more prevalent than any of us realize. The things kids are exposed to via the internet just weren't available to my generation, and frankly the quality of the, ahem, 'actresses' has gone up exponentially, even in the ultra-fringe stuff that used to be viewed as unforgivably weird and now shows up in your email of its own accord. I think it's just too much too soon for a generation of American kids that is certainly the most self-reliant and confident that I've ever seen. Have you tried to reprimand someone else's 7-year-old lately? Homey don't play dat.

So anyways, the sky is falling. Good luck to all the parents out there.

The girl is acting out in a... (Below threshold)

The girl is acting out in a self-destructive manner. It could be indicative of earlier sexual abuse or an actual psychological disorder. But unless she gets into therapy, she will not change. Now, if her parents are cause, contributing or just plain brain-dead about her condition..I'll give the dad a bit of a break for saying such a lame thing to a bunch of reporters with mics in his face. But I still wonder what the hell possessed him to allow his girl to have a topless/drinking party in a hotel room. Maybe the clue bat dad needs is to stand and explain it to a judge.

kgowen:It's good t... (Below threshold)
Mark A.:

kgowen:

It's good to know that there is one, and only one, reason for being a "turbo slut." If I ever ponder the root cause of any other behavior, I'll be sure to consult you. God, I hope your are being facetious and not just a pinheaded simpleton.

-S-:

I'm sure there is plenty of "concern and outrage" at home. But can you blame a father for trying to salvage his daughter's honor in the public eye? I don't read "she's a super kid" as being a rationalization or belittlement of her behavior, but merely as adding context. What she did is very bad, but it may be an aberration in the context of her life--and that seems to be his message. On the other hand, some kids are just rotten, and have always been that way.

Before we get too carried away by what the father "said," or didn't say, remember that we're just reading quotes in newspapers. He may have said much more than the reporter chose to use. As one who has been quoted in my share of newspapers, I know my message *always* takes a back seat to the reporter's agenda. We have no reason to believe "Monica's" father is satisfied with the remarks attributed to him.

- It would appear that minn... (Below threshold)

- It would appear that minnie has wandered dangerously far away from her meds again......

Mark A:I'm sure... (Below threshold)
kgowen:

Mark A:

I'm sure there is plenty of "concern and outrage" at home.

Really? How do you know this? Haven't you posted multiple times lecturing us poor benighted rubes about how we're not supposed to make these sorts of assumptions based "only" on what we read in the newspaper, and here you are doing the same thing? My, my, that's quite a double standard you have here.

What she did is very bad,

That's not what the father said. Read it again. He said "she make a few mistakes". This is an equivocation which puts extremem sexual promiscuity on the same level as forgetting to do your homework. As such, it sounds like he's minimizing the magnitude of the offense to evade his own responsibility

but it may be an aberration in the context of her life--and that seems to be his message.

Yeah, so apparently 'Monica' was a perfectly normal girl until one day, with no warning, she whipped off her top and started blowing guys right and left. If that's the picture the dad is trying to paint, he is either a clueless boob or, as I suspect, trying to cover up his own failure. Sorry, I've been a parent far too long not to see this excuse as the laughable hogwash that it is.

Well, looks like I went to ... (Below threshold)
Tim in PA:

Well, looks like I went to the wrong school.

Anyhow, it is entirely possible that this girl acted like a saint in front of her parents and lived a second life behind their back. Even the most determined parents are no match for batty teenage girls.

This may seem like a stretc... (Below threshold)
DBub:

This may seem like a stretch for many of you, but here goes: She is doing this because it is in her nature. When she was born she inherited a debt that she can never pay and one that we all have.

Ok, maybe it is not too much of a stretch for any parent because you have seen it firsthand. When did you teach your children to lie, or to manipulate? What were the first words that they learned? NO. MINE.

Monica’s problem here is not psychological. It has nothing to do with her upbringing. Her problem is sin. Her current situation is the direct consequence of that sin.

Context, people. Context.</... (Below threshold)

Context, people. Context.

Is she a filthy ho? I think so, but I'm a Christian guy and so my worldview necessarily has a "it's not morally healthy to service the the hockey team" filter.

However, as far as popular culture goes, the only blip she'd register in our Jerry Springer/MTV/Howard Stern/Girls Gone Wild/ Whorish Reality Show nation is that she just became the perfect houseguest for the next edition of "Real World: Las Vegas."

Seen in the context of a national culture that has successfully killed the concept of shame, she was just doin' what happens naturally. You know, exploring and experimenting, getting in touch with herself, etc.

The problem, folks, is every single one of us - and I include myself here - who has reacted to the the increasing ugliness of our popular, public mores by sitting on the couch with a tub of popcorn and watching and making bad jokes about it.

Let's face it, in today's anti-morality environment even if her father were a comitted religious man who did everything he could to instill in his daughter a firm belief in sexual morality, only the strongest kid could have come through prep school or college without experimenting at least once.

What's equally frustrating about this story is not that a fifteen year old girl and her several boyfriends did the kind of thing that gets applauded when it's done by 18 year old girls and their men in the Playboy Mansion, it's that anyone can claim with a straight face to be surprised that this is going on.

Monica’s problem here is... (Below threshold)
kgowen:

Monica’s problem here is not psychological. It has nothing to do with her upbringing. Her problem is sin. Her current situation is the direct consequence of that sin.

This is a false dilemma. A crappy upbringing very much fits into the sin equation. Those two ideas are not in conflict, and full disclosure here, I say this as a conservative Christian. I think's it's a little naive to think that what she did has no antecedents in her life.

File this one under "true, but it doesn't say much."

The problem, folks, is e... (Below threshold)
DBub:

The problem, folks, is every single one of us - and I include myself here - who has reacted to the the increasing ugliness of our popular, public mores by sitting on the couch with a tub of popcorn and watching and making bad jokes about it.

Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

kgowen:1. "Sorry,... (Below threshold)
Mark A.:

kgowen:

1. "Sorry, I've been a parent far to long not to see this excuse as laughable..."

Umm, who made any excuses for her? I certainly haven't read any from her father. Is there any hint that he condones or ratifies her behavior?

What is he supposed to do?--tell the world she is an evil piece of shit? kg, I bet you WOULD stone her to death.

2. Who equivocates her sexual escapades with missing her homework? Did anyone? He used the word "mistake." Look that word up. American Heritage defines it, in part, as "an error or fault resulting from defective judgment...." Wouldn't you concede she had defective judgment and she was at fault? The word seems to fit.

3. Yes, perfectly normal and compliant kids with spotless records--frequently from restrictive and overly zealous religious backgrounds--often temporarily "snap" once they fly the coop and leave for a boarding school or college. There often are no obvious warning signs. Fortunately, many of them grow out of their phase and lead normal lives thereafter.

4. And yes, I'm confident the father who cared enough to spend $30+ grand per year for high school tuition to give his daugher every opportunity in life is feeling some concern and outrage. I could be wrong, but I seriously doubt it. Why not give him the benefit of the doubt? This must be horrifying for him--it would be for me.

Then again, you might be right--he's probably bragging about it down at the local corner where he buys his hookers and blow. Maybe he's even passing out candid photos.

Hey, has anyone stopped to ... (Below threshold)
amazed:

Hey, has anyone stopped to think of what all these kids are losing by going so far sexually at that age? Heck, I remember getting such a thrill when I'd first hold a girl's hand, and she'd squeeze my hand, or we'd tickle each other's fingers. And when we kissed - oh, man, that was enough to keep me flying!!

Did I fantasize? You bet. But I sure don't feel cheated by stopping at just rounding second base with girls in high school and college.

In fact, I really feel for the people who skip past all that magic, and jump right to the conclusion. They're cheating themselves.

Married now, with children who are into their teens. I still enjoy holding my wife's hand, and we certainly enjoy wilder intimacy than I'd ever imagined (I mean, yeah, you read about that stuff, but to have a nice wife who's wild in the bedroom?).

Nice thing is, my kids can see me be affectionate with my wife, and they're (so far) still open to talk to us about the things going on in their lives, including the temptations.

For their sake - not for some prudish hangup - I hope they enjoy the simple, amazing aspects of dating, but hold off on the final chapter. Their choice, but I know they'd be happier for it.

And safer.

Mark A., you make good poin... (Below threshold)
CSI guy:

Mark A., you make good points. None of us can know what's going on here.

I have to say, I have a relative in social work, and he says this smacks of the girl being abused in her past, and now wanting validation, or just feeling useless.

But we don't know that.

kgowen, you sound very angry, and maybe you have good reasons, but we cannot infer what you're saying. It certainly may be true, but we just don't know.

Nice thing is, my kids c... (Below threshold)
DBub:

Nice thing is, my kids can see me be affectionate with my wife...

Good for you Amazed! Prep school and ivy league educations are way overrated. You are giving your children one of the best gifts you can: Showing them what a loving and committed relationship looks like.

Amazed: Great points!... (Below threshold)
Mark A.:

Amazed: Great points!

When I was divorced after 15 years of marriage, I felt jaded. I had plenty of girlfriends through high school and college, and I lived through what seemed like a lifetime of marriage. I thought I would never get that tingling sensation, and the chills, and the speechlessness, and everything that goes along with the anticipation of the first holding of the hands, etc. But ya know what? When you really care about someone, it will be there. Maybe even for 90-year-old former porn stars, if they find love.

Ok, we're all morons!... (Below threshold)
Mark A.:

Ok, we're all morons!

RE-READ THE ARTICLE!!!

The only father quoted, is the father of the birthday girl! The 15-year-old's ("Monica's") father is not quoted anywhere.

Read it. Read it again. Apply the normal rules of English. It does not appear that "Monica's" father has spoken.

Mark A:3. Yes, ... (Below threshold)
kgowen:

Mark A:

3. Yes, perfectly normal and compliant kids with spotless records--frequently from restrictive and overly zealous religious backgrounds--often temporarily "snap" once they fly the coop and leave for a boarding school or college. There often are no obvious warning signs.

If the father created and raised his daughter in an environment of religious repression or zealotry or however you want to describe it, then, once again, he is a clueless putz. Thank you for proving my point for me.

4. And yes, I'm confident the father who cared enough to spend $30+ grand per year for high school tuition to give his daugher every opportunity in life is feeling some concern and outrage.

I think it's pretty naive to think that spending a ton of money on his kids is proof positive that he "cares". For all we know, he might be just trying to get her out of his house so he doesn't have to deal with her. I've known parents to shower their kids with money, new cars, European vacations, etc., more out of indifference and "ok, now scram" than anything else. For a horrifying glimpse of just how depraved some parents can be, you ought to read a book called "The Nanny Diaries". It might sober you up.

This must be horrifying for him--it would be for me.

Again, you don't know that. You're assuming that the entire world is just like you, and that everyone reacts the same way you would react. I was disabused of that notion when I was in my teens. For all you know, 'Monicas' father's reaction could have been not horror or outrage but "what, again?"

Then again, you might be right--he's probably bragging about it down at the local corner where he buys his hookers and blow. Maybe he's even passing out candid photos.

I want to thank you once again for making my points for me. What you fling out as absurd actually happened to me once: I was on the Victoria-British Columbia Ferry about 15 years ago with a friend and to pass the time I was wandering the deck alone. An elderly man approaches my friend and I see this from a distance, they strike up a conversation. Later on, my friend tells me that the guy told him that his daughter had just done a spread for Penthouse and whipped out some photos and showed him(!). Now, granted the daughter was not 15 years old like 'Monica' here, she was most likely in her early 20s, but even so, what kind of depraved father would carry around porn shots of his own daughter to show to random strangers?

My point is, what you think is outrageous and ridiculous and beyond belief is probably just another example of real life.

Also, there might be, as pointed out by other posters, some actual sexual abuse involved here. Many times, promiscuity has its roots there. I see you're studiously ignoring that possibility as well.

Mark A: you're looking at t... (Below threshold)
DBub:

Mark A: you're looking at the other story (there's a bunch)

Monica's dad comments on page 2 of this story

Mark A is right. It was no... (Below threshold)
kgowen:

Mark A is right. It was not Monica's father who is quoted in the article. It was the father of the daughter whose hotel room the party took place in.

CSI guy:kgowen,... (Below threshold)
kgowen:

CSI guy:

kgowen, you sound very angry,

I don't know why you would think that, I am just stating what I think about the situation based on the newspaper article.

DBub: No, the one and only... (Below threshold)
Mark A.:

DBub: No, the one and only "father" was introduced on page one. The father quoted on page two is that same father.

kgowen: Thanks for at least agreeing with me that the father has not spoken.

You make some good points, and the things you describe are real--they exist in our society. My only quarrel with you is that you seem so willing to make the leap and assume the silent father is guilty of all those mistakes--in a complete absence of evidence. You could be right, but there really is no reason to make those leaps here--at least not yet.

Do parents fuck up their kids? Yes. Do all of them? Probably yes, in varying degrees. Are sexual abuse, lack of parental affection, and lack of moral upbringing often linked to "turbo slut" behavior? Yes. Always? No. Are there other possibilities? Of course. Do we know anything about her problems? Nope.

Jay Tea: You ignited the outrage of several people who are condemning the father of "Monica" based on your misreading of the article. He has not spoken. I hope you will be responsible enough to re-read the article and set the record straight.

OK I got it on the 10th rea... (Below threshold)
DBub:

OK I got it on the 10th read. There was only one father. What a smart move on his part to comment on how "great" the other girl is. He didn't have to try and defend his own daughter's actions.

Ok, we're all morons!</i... (Below threshold)
julie:

Ok, we're all morons!
Speak for yourself! I made the distinction in my post, but the article was very difficult to decipher. Obviously, I wasn't the only one to find it confusing and poorly written.

Jay Tea: You ignited the outrage of several people who are condemning the father of "Monica" based on your misreading of the article.

Oh, give me a break! His daughter didn't get to be so fucked up on her own. The parents deserve to be condemned.

I hope you will be responsible enough to re-read the article and set the record straight He has not spoken.

And, I hope you will be responsible enough to retract your statement: He Has Spoken!

Oh Julie, it's so nice too ... (Below threshold)
Mark A.:

Oh Julie, it's so nice too hear from you. Now please pay attention while I explain a little something for you.

There are more than fifty posts in this section. Most of them condemmed "Monica's" father for making statements about his daughter that he did not, in fact, make. A debate ensued. In the article linked by Jay Tea, the contoversial statements were attributed to the father of another girl, NOT "Monica's" father, but the article was not as clear as it could have been. All of us were irresponsible in debating the father's parenting skills based on statements he did not even make. I am embarrassed to have joined in, but I would think the lynch mob should be even more embarrassed.

Thank you for linking to the article that DOES quote the father. I had not seen that article previously, nor was it the topic of discussion in this thread. I stand corrected: He has spoken.

Julie, perhaps I was not clear in my posts. When I said he had not spoken, I was referring to the article at the center of the debate. In fact, all along I assumed the man was not mute, and I made the leap of faith that he probably did articulate thoughts in an audible fashion. However, none of those thoughts were reported in the subject article, and none were relied upon to support any of the various views expressed by the commentors.

Now to address your sophisticated analysis of child development and behavioral psychology, which seems to boil down to this:

"If teenager fucks up, it is ALWAYS the parents' fault. Not only is it their fault, but to such a degree that they should be condemned. In fact, this is so certain that condemnation should be automatic without bothering to learn a single shred of information about the girl's genetics, upbringing, behavioral history, or neuro-psychiatric status."

Applying your wonderful analysis, you would condemn the parents for her behavior even if it were linked to traumatic sexual abuse at the hands of a priest at church camp. Wow.

Julie, it must be nice to live in your black and white world where the dogmatic and ignorant see everything with the clearest precision. Until now, I thought morons like you only posted at the Democratic Underground and KOS.

Lets hope you do not have a position in life that enables you to make decisions that affect other people. That would be tragic.

There are more than fift... (Below threshold)
julie:

There are more than fifty posts in this section. Most of them condemmed "Monica's" father for making statements about his daughter that he did not, in fact, make.

So, he made other stupid statements when he shouldn't be making statements at all. Don't assume anyone but you would feel any different towards him.

A debate ensued. In the article linked by Jay Tea, the contoversial statements were attributed to the father of another girl, NOT "Monica's" father, but the article was not as clear as it could have been.

Thank you for re-stating what I already indicated twice I knew.

All of us were irresponsible in debating the father's parenting skills based on statements he did not even make. I am embarrassed to have joined in, but I would think the lynch mob should be even more embarrassed.

Not ALL of us. And even if he didn't make that particular statement, his parenting skills are more than questionable and subject to legitimate debate.

Thank you for linking to the article that DOES quote the father. I had not seen that article previously, nor was it the topic of discussion in this thread.

You made it the topic. Jay, posted an update and referenced the article. Keep up and remember, you don't control the discussions.

Julie, perhaps I was not clear in my posts. When I said he had not spoken, I was referring to the article at the center of the debate.

Oh, you were clear. Don't try to back pedal, now. You were extremely emphatic about it: He has not spoken. And you stated it three times. You saw it as an opportunity to unnecessarily rag on Jay Tea. He was gracious about it. I don't have to be.

[snip boring back pedaling part]

"If teenager fucks up, it is ALWAYS the parents' fault. Not only is it their fault, but to such a degree that they should be condemned. In fact, this is so certain that condemnation should be automatic without bothering to learn a single shred of information about the girl's genetics, upbringing, behavioral history, or neuro-psychiatric status."

Did I say that? Where?

Applying your wonderful analysis,

Uh, that was YOUR analysis.

you would condemn the parents for her behavior even if it were linked to traumatic sexual abuse at the hands of a priest at church camp. Wow.

Did I say that? Where? I did say these parents should be condemned, as they should. There daughter is out of control. It didn't happen over night. They are responsible for her well being legally. You are whining about other people pre-judging when you are doing exactly the same. The people who think something is wrong with this family have some basis to their arguement. You're argument does not.

Julie, it must be nice to live in your black and white world where the dogmatic and ignorant see everything with the clearest precision. Until now, I thought morons like you only posted at the Democratic Underground and KOS.

Maybe, your problem is that you hang out to much at DU/Kos, where if you challenge a post, you are banned. No dissent is allowed. Apparently, no dissent is allowed in your little world, either.

Lets hope you do not have a position in life that enables you to make decisions that affect other people. That would be tragic.

Boy, you seem extremely and unusually touchy about the subject of parenting skills. Hmm.

Mark, please note that I po... (Below threshold)
Jay Tea:

Mark, please note that I posted the correction and gave you full credit and my thanks for spotting it as soon as I could. Further, I did so before Kevin forwarded your rather pissy note to me. Not that it would have made a difference -- I made the error (apparently a lot of others did, too -- the article was rather poorly written at that point), you caught it, and you deserved credit for it when I corrected myself.

Mark, sorry you don't care for my postings here. You're always welcome to shut up and ignore me. You wouldn't be the first, and I'm sure you won't be the last.

J.

"So, he made other stupid s... (Below threshold)
Mark A.:

"So, he made other stupid statements when he shouldn't be making statements at all."

What, when, where? As yet, nobody has cited any of his actual statements and challenged them as "stupid."

"And even if he didn't make that particular statement, his parenting skills are more than questionable and subject to legitimate debate."

What information do you have about his parenting skills? You know about three or four incidents of behavior by his teenage daughter. What do you know about HIM? Not what you would like to speculate, but what do you KNOW? It appears you know absolutely nothing, but are willing to extrapolate across logically impermissible chasms of faith. Who the fuck do you think you are?

"It didn't happen over night. . . . The people who think something is wrong with this family have some basis to their arguement."

What are the bases? People have only cited personal speculation and falsely attributed quotes. But is there a FACTUAL basis? 60 posts have discussed three newspaper articles, but no one has cited a shred of factual information. Sure, we have plenty of conjecture and opinion, but no facts.

Julie, the reasoning abilities you've demonstrated here frighten me. I shudder to think you may actually have a job or, worse yet, a family.

Jay, unless you are "Julie,... (Below threshold)
Mark A.:

Jay, unless you are "Julie," I'm not sure where you're coming from. I thanked you for posting the update, and I don't have a quarrel with you. We all seem to have misread the sloppy article, and my blame toward you probably sounded harsher than I meant it. If so, I apologize.

If you would like to discuss the pissy comments I made in private to Kevin, I would prefer to do that in private--you have my email address.

Oh Christ, YOU ARE JULIE!!!... (Below threshold)
Mark A.:

Oh Christ, YOU ARE JULIE!!!

So, do you always troll the comments of your own posts? In my case were you intending to give me somebody to rant against, or do you actually mean the things you said?

Damn, I fell for it. Yup, I must be an idiot.

Oh, I make quite a good sal... (Below threshold)
julie:

Oh, I make quite a good salary from my reasoning skills. And if Jay were me, he would have kicked your ass out of here because you are such an obnoxious pissant. And I never had DCS knocking on my door. Is that why you're so defensive? Your kid caught servicing an entire sports team, too?

Yup, I must be an idiot.

On that we can all agree!

Well I think I learned a li... (Below threshold)
Mark A.:

Well I think I learned a little something about the integrity of this blog today.

Nice try, Jay. Yes, I see you just changed your email address from the one you shared with "Julie" this morning. Kevin and Paul, are you in on this, too?

Well I think I learned a... (Below threshold)
DBub:

Well I think I learned a little something about the integrity of this blog today.

What???

(can't believe I have to... (Below threshold)
Jay Tea:

(can't believe I have to deny this...)

No, Mark, I am not Julie, and I've posted a comment exactly once under an assumed name. That one time was because the matter being discussed was something I know a little about, but regard as intensely personal and didn't want to be known as an "expert" on the subject (a medical condition). Except for that one time, everything I post here goes under my name. It's a matter of personal pride and integrity for me.

The reason I post so little during the day is that I have a full-time job. I've been "future publishing" pieces to show up during the day to keep the site fresh, but usually I'm lucky if I can spare 10 minutes during the day to do anything online. I certainly don't have the time, interest, motivation, or lack of integrity it would take to publish all the comments Julie has contributed here.

As far as whether I should have sent that message to you privately, in e-mail, is another matter. In retrospect, I should have, and not posted it to a public forum. I don't have access to my Wizbang e-mail at work, so I should have waited until I got home. I apologize to you for that, and I will try to avoid making such mistakes in the future.

J.

(private to Julie: another person's figured out we're one and the same. We gotta be more careful in the future. And while I have you, I want to complain about the underwear you've been choosing. It's awful binding... and giving me some rather uncomfortable chafing. Be more considerate, huh?)

What can I say, Mark. When ... (Below threshold)
julie/jay/kevin/paul:

What can I say, Mark. When you're right, your right. You found me, uh, us out.

That reminds me, Julie... w... (Below threshold)
Jay Tea:

That reminds me, Julie... wanna rent "Spartacus" tonight?

J.

As far as whether I shou... (Below threshold)
julie/jay/kevin/paul:

As far as whether I should have sent that message to you privately, in e-mail, is another matter. In retrospect, I should have, and not posted it to a public forum.

Huh? Julie, would you please explain what you mean here? I certainly didn't think your, uh, my post was offensive. In fact, I think you, uh, I was too nice.

(private to Julie: another person's figured out we're one and the same. We gotta be more careful in the future. And while I have you, I want to complain about the underwear you've been choosing. It's awful binding... and giving me some rather uncomfortable chafing. Be more considerate, huh?)

STAY OUT OF MY UNDERWEAR DRAWER! And, what's my PIN number, and where's the card?

Girl is 15 - by law she can... (Below threshold)
pmacdona:

Girl is 15 - by law she can't consent. This is cut and dried statutory rape which will probably plead out something a bit less but nonetheless a very serious crime for these "fine" young men and future leaders. Where's the DA? I dare say the same acts in Boston public schools would have prosecutors all fired up. Enough of the touchy feely (no pun intended) analysis - let's follow the law and let the judge and/or jury decide.

You know what you losers I ... (Below threshold)
asifilltellyou:

You know what you losers I go to milton and this is an atrocity how everyone is making a huge exageration about this. Milton Academy has been going for over two hundred years and it has one of the cleanest records of private schools. Where did you guys go to school? Iamnotgoingtoevergetlaid Prep?




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