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Imitation Not Innovation

From my first post on the Mac Mini, the Microsoft apologist attacked, saying it was no big deal, that nobody wanted that form factor anyway. Other apologists posted links to Wintel boxes that were "the same thing." -- And they were the same thing.-- Just 4 times the size and almost $2000.00 but other than that, they were the "same thing." (The ones that were shipping anyway, most were vaporware.)

I predicted at the time a flood of copycat products, just as the PC world has been following Apple for 2 decades now. I just didn't know how pathetic the start would be...

intelmini.jpg

Intel shows off Mac Mini-like concept PC

SAN FRANCISCO--Intel on Wednesday showed off its living room PC of the future--and it looks a lot like the Mac Mini.

As part of a speech at the Intel Developer Forum here, Vice President Don MacDonald demonstrated several concept PCs, including the Sleek Concept Entertainment PC--a square, metallic-colored device that was immediately reminiscent of the desktop computer Apple Computer introduced earlier this year.

It's unlikely that Intel itself would build such a device. The chipmaker often uses its twice-yearly developer events to try to spur creativity among computer makers. [Editor's note: Correction, Apple already spurred creativity, Intel is trying to spur imitation.] Past efforts have seen PCs twisted into all sorts of shapes and even embedded in an Ottoman foot rest.

An Apple representative declined to comment on Intel's concept PC.

Thus far, the concept PC is just a piece of plastic, literally, although its design showed a clock display and optical drive in front, with ports such as USB, optical audio and FireWire in the back.

So the PC world is atwitter because Intel brought an empty plastic box to a trade show and said, "Ya know we could put a computer in here." You'll excuse me if I'm underwhelmed.

Now in a few months, those same apologists will be talking about their mini PC's and telling everyone about how cool it is... but by then the Mac users will already be on to the next new technology. Lather rinse repeat.


Comments (44)

amen...... (Below threshold)

amen...

They did the same with with... (Below threshold)
cirby:

They did the same with with something called the "Aztec" (an iMac ripoff) and a couple of makers copied the Twentieth Anniversary Mac (a one-piece model with an LCD screen).

The problem is that every time they do this kind of copying, they end up with a machine that's either slower, larger, more expensive, or just plain *ugly*.

Mac fanboys never cease to ... (Below threshold)

Mac fanboys never cease to blow thier tiny horn with every new "innovation". Why is the mac community so insecure about their product line that they have the need to chatter ad nausea about the merits of their machines? Seriously, no one gives a shit.

Gabriel,Good to know... (Below threshold)
The Other JD:

Gabriel,
Good to know that you're "Nobody."

Based on comments on this s... (Below threshold)
DBub:

Based on comments on this site I was led to believe that the Mac Mini already existed in the Wintel world. I must be looking in the wrong places since I can't seem to find one anywhere. I would buy one and put that Windows Media OS on it if I could. Not to replace the "heavy lifting" work of my Mac, but to have something to play with.

Can someone point me in the right direction for one of those?

" but by then the Mac users... (Below threshold)
Addison:

" but by then the Mac users will already be on to the next new technology. Lather rinse repeat."

Except.. the only thing notable about the Mini is the form factor, and the price. If you want a cheap Mac, sure, great, knock yourself out. I read a very good presumption that the point of the Mini is to position the Mac to be the delivery method for High Def stuff - and that makes more sense. (Cringley, maybe?)

But in terms of "technology", the Mini is far _behind_ the curve, as is rather normal for the Mac world. (Argue if you'd like, but the Apple's advantage, such as it is is software, not hardware.)

Form factor's not technology. Might be neat, but it's not tech. Of course, I still haven't put the sides back on the case of my Athlon, so you can tell how much asthetics mean to me. :) I put it together 2 years ago, and for $600, have something that's faster even now than the Mini. For $400, I can get a brand new PC put together, save in a not-as-small form factor, that will blow the doors of either my older system, or the Mini.

The Mini is either aimed at people who are already Mac fanatics (such as those who confuse form factor with technology), who want to try a Mac, but the price was an issue, or to get more Mac's out there as part of a media distribution plan.

Having said that, yes, there are other companies chasing form factors. Just like after the Imac, you could get plastic cases for your PC in peach and yellow. But having a colored case wasn't "technology", either. Marketing, sure. Not Technology.

- Its really amusing, watch... (Below threshold)

- Its really amusing, watching the computer industry "milk" the consumer with the dribble and drabble of incremental release "innovations" that have characterized the whole hardware circus for years. Like paul, I'm all non-atwiter and underwhelmed. A parallel to the auto industry in some ways.

Blah blah, here goes my usu... (Below threshold)
Tim in PA:

Blah blah, here goes my usual statement;

Yes, Macs are technologically wonderful, easy to use, cure leprosy, and walk your dog.

They do not, however, have a cheap and plentiful supply of games that I want to run on them. If I worked primarily in something like commercial graphics or whatnot, I'd buy a Mac but I'd still own a PC.

I'm currently working on finishing a degree. The computer labs where I have classes are 100% Mac. They are quite literally to simple and too easy for me to figure out how to do the most basic of operations; the mouse with one button turns me into a zombie.

Last October, AMD began mar... (Below threshold)
Michael A:

Last October, AMD began marketing its PIC (Personal Internet Computer) low cost and low power consumption unit aimed at improving computer availablity. See http://www.amdboard.com/pic.html for information. While the AMD box is slightly larger than the Apple (5.5x8.5x2.5 compared to 6.5x6.5x2 inches) it is not four times the size (only 40% larger). And at $185 MSRP it is not too expensive.

There is a need around the world for computers that are affordable, functional and small enough to fit into a crowded flat with limited electricity.

Welcome to another round of... (Below threshold)

Welcome to another round of Dueling Hymnals!

You left some things out of... (Below threshold)
cirby:

You left some things out of the comment about the AMD Personal Internet Communicator.

In other words, for less money you get a crippled computer with a quarter of the hard drive space, a slower CPU, no CD-ROM/DVD, no Ethernet, no FireWire, a 10 gig hard drive, et cetera. Running Windows CE, with a bunch of second-rate apps included.

It's Yet Another Dumb Terminal, not a home computer. And it's still 50% bigger than a Mac Mini...

Business as usual: tell everyone you can get the same thing, cheaper, and don't mention that it's not nearly the same thing.

I have a PC, primarily beca... (Below threshold)
CSI guy:

I have a PC, primarily because everyone in my family plays DirectX games. But I constantly wish the market would change such that home consumers would have choices. Microsoft is good at business - not at innovation, by any means. Unfortunately, when we all eventually have Longhorn (the next MSFT OS, which is intrusive beyond business's wildest dreams) on our machines, even the PC/MSFT enthusiasts will be aghast, but far too late.

The Personal Internet Co... (Below threshold)

The Personal Internet Communicator (PIC) is an affordable consumer device designed to provide managed Internet access

Bzzt. The Mac mini is a general-purpose computer, not a "managed Internet appliance." Apples and oranges. (No pun intended.)

There's been small form-fac... (Below threshold)

There's been small form-factor cases for "baby-ATX" motherboards for a while. I don't know the dimensions of the smallest case, because, bluntly, I don't care what the dimensions for the smallest possible case are. I wouldn't buy 'em. If I could 'crack the case' (hard to do on the Macs I've had experience with), there's no place to put extras or upgrades. It's like buying a laptop - what you pay for is what you get, no chance to later upgrade anything.

Give me a full size case, plenty of expansion bays, slots, holders, whatever. Or, if I do, it's only to be a 'dumb terminal' for a computer that does have all the expansion room.

>:)

I have had a shuttle for al... (Below threshold)
M.Palmer:

I have had a shuttle for almost 2 years. Am I ahead of the times?

http://www.fm-data.dk/images/sb61g2.jpg

There is nothing special about either companies attempts.

Spot on Addison. New packa... (Below threshold)
pvaughan:

Spot on Addison. New packaging isn't technology. As they tout it to be the "shape" of things to come I have to laugh. I have been watching the mini-itx motherboard for years now. These small motherboards are usually built as fanless systems and can literally fit into a cigar box.

Take a look at this link to see some of the systems people have built using it.

http://www.mini-itx.com/

Another source for the board is here.

http://www.soekris.com/

Even Fry's Electronics carry them now.

These boards were developed to be put into systems that don't require a lot of computing power. An example would be a firewall. No real number crunching of spread sheets or heavy demands for graphics. Heck, most firewalls are setup and then the keyboard, mouse and monitor are all removed since they can be accessed via a web browser.

Over the years computer components have advanced giving the mini-itx boards even broader applications (pun intended). RAM sticks are available in the gigabyte range, so are flash drives. Chips that were once only available on expansion cards (ethernet, video, audio, USB) are now being mounted directly to the mother board. There is no longer a need for a floppy drive or an LTP port. CPU's are faster and run cooler. We have "Smart Houses" that can turn things on and off, up and down. Home networking is plug and play. iPods have dozens of copycats. We have satelite radio and television, digital cable, DSL, wireless broadband, TiVo, Digital Video Recorders, DVD burners, huge hard drives and VoIP (voice over internet). All this technology already exists and they are all starting to merge.

The true quantum leap today is the 64 bit technology. AMD launched the first salvo by putting out the first 64 bit system. Intel is still ironing their's out but will release it soon. With the new hardware comes the new 64 bit OS. Microsoft has one and Linux has multiple distributions (Suse, Red Hat, etc.).

With the speed of the 64 bit systems and the ability to integrate with other already available technology, it won't be long before the home A/V system will all be run off a computer. You won't have a DVD player or burner as a system component. It will be replaced by the media computer which will have the DVD burner in it. You will be able to rip the CD's and DVD's you own to the hard drive. You will also be able to archive your library of mp3's and movies to another DVD for "safe keeping". A USB port and card reader will be on the front so you can dump your pictures off your digital camera or video recorder. The keyboard will be wireless, the mouse will be a touch pad on the keyboard and the display will be the TV screen. Heard of webtv?

Soon all the systems in the house will run off a computer. Not only the entertainment system but the phone, the heater, the air conditioner, the pool heater and filter, the security system and even the garage door.qs

The Mac folks are just frantic to get their products into the consumers hand now or they will be all but forgotten. Intel and Microsoft are just saying "me too" because Mac is talking. Loyal Apple-cores will always be around but whatever. So will the ATM.

*giggle*Apple, for... (Below threshold)

*giggle*

Apple, for all its insignificance and inadequacy sure seems to get the pc folks all in a lather, doesn't it?

I love my Macs. I use to be one of the PC people. Do not fear the light. Keep your PC for your games if you want, but move to a superior OS for everything else. XP is a steaming pile of shit and there is nothing that anyone can say to change that fact.

Talk about sucking the joy out of surfing the internet. Anti virus this, adaware that, spy ware blah blah blah. Updates out the wazoo. By the time you get that out of the way every time you start the machine do you even have the energy to do anything?

Some mindless goober said:<... (Below threshold)
Paul:

Some mindless goober said:

But in terms of "technology", the Mini is far _behind_ the curve, as is rather normal for the Mac world.

And when I had a MOUSE the nay-sayser said they did not need it... They when they got one they held it up as if it were from the gods.

And when I had a GUI the nay-sayser said they did not need it... They when they got one they held it up as if it were from the gods.

And when I had a COULD FREAKING ADDRESS MORE THAN 640K OF MEMORY the nay-sayser said they did not need it... They when they got one they held it up as if it were from the gods.

And when I had BUILT IN NETWORKING the nay-sayser said they did not need it... They when they got one they held it up as if it were from the gods.

And when I had a 3.5" FLOPPY the nay-sayser said they did not need it... They when they got one they held it up as if it were from the gods.

And when I had a BUILT IN AUDIO the nay-sayser said they did not need it... They when they got one they held it up as if it were from the gods.

And when I had a BUILT IN HD CONTROLLERS the nay-sayser said they did not need it... They when they got one they held it up as if it were from the gods.

And when I had a CD-ROM the nay-sayser said they did not need it... They when they got one they held it up as if it were from the gods.

And when I had a BUILT IN ETHERNET the nay-sayser said they did not need it... They when they got one they held it up as if it were from the gods.

And when I had a TRACK PAD(on my notebook) the nay-sayser said they did not need it... They when they got one they held it up as if it were from the gods.

And when I had a DVD-PLAYER the nay-sayser said they did not need it... They when they got one they held it up as if it were from the gods.

And when I had a FANLESS COMPUTER the nay-sayser said they did not need it... The losers still don't have it.

And when I had a USB the nay-sayser said they did not need it... They when they got one they held it up as if it were from the gods.

And when I had a FIREWIRE the nay-sayser said they did not need it... They when they got one they held it up as if it were from the gods.


On and on the list goes, Apple has ALWAYS been at least a year ahead and often a decade ahead of the Windows world... Then you have complete morons who say things like the clip above... Then some other loser says he is spot on. It is sad really.

The annoying thing is that they always whine about how they don't need or want whatever Apple has, then when they finally get it, they think they are have something.

Lather Rinse Repeat.

Wheres that Mac Tablet PC? ... (Below threshold)

Wheres that Mac Tablet PC? Oh yeah they don't have one.

Wait a minute.... Macs can ... (Below threshold)
DBub:

Wait a minute.... Macs can address more than 640K of memory???

Loser? Name calling?... (Below threshold)
pvaughan:

Loser? Name calling?

Sad is an Apple-core that thinks they speak in tounges and that all others are mere mortals. Ironic that the only hares, sorry I mean hairs, that seem to stand up when the Mac vs. PC topic comes up are those on Mac-ers. They always seem to remind the world that "Mac did it first" whenever they get lapped. No, that's right, Mac's still ahead. Let's look at the bench scores when Intel releases their 64 bit system. Then you can boast instead about how your system doesn't crash. And well, neither has my XP system. And neither has my linux system and neither has my Novell file server. And they all run on PC parts. But that's right, yours hasn't crashed first.

Talk about lather, rinse, repeat!?!

But you see, all the things that I talked about being able to do in my previous post can be done now. With today's technology. Maybe you missed that part. Sixty-four bit systems will make it all work even better, with less lag time. I do half of it in my home already. Granted, I have had some trial and error but it works. And Mac Media Machine is where?

I love the debate. My uncle is a Mac-head. He's a freak about them. He LOVES them. Most Mac users do. He owns his own computer consulting business that does business with various banks and financial institutions throughout the US. Yet, he still works part-time at the local Mac Store in an effort to be a prophet for Apple. Maybe it's profit. I forget. He told me but we had been drinking. He's a brilliant man and we have great discussions at the family reunions. But hey, everyone has their hang-up.

My brother-in-law loved his too. Until, well, he had to work in the real world. Now he's a network administrator for the water authority of a major US city.

I would love to load Mac onto one of my boxes but, alas, I can't. I need to buy a Mac box or cube or whatever clever and cute thing it is that they have out now. Not gonna happen.

See, that's the problem with Mac. It doesn't play well with others. For Apple you have to completely give yourself over. You have to be willing to partake of the fruit, join the club, (I could go on forever). But, of course, once you drink the Kool-Aid, you gain the knowledge that you too are not only superior to the rest of the world but omniscient.

If Macs are better and more advanced than PCs, then why are they not more prevalent? Why aren't corporations snapping them up and installing them throughout. Just think of the downtime it would save. The truth is there is just no infrastructure. It's limited. It may not be a Mac-world but it certainly is a PC one. PC users can buy parts just about anywhere and have a wide array of vendors to choose from. Mac users aren't afforded so many options. Most have to run home to their "club" store. Everything Mac users do require them to check in with the mother ship. Sounds kind of like someone has them by the short hairs. And doesn't Microsoft distribute Mac software. Face it, you have been Job-ed!

Macs are like puppies. They're cute and fun to play with but no one wants to commit to them.

So Mac-world, pity me and my kind. For our world is that of ignorance. For we know not what we are missing. And we are certainly not as cool.

Or maybe PCers are like puppies - patiently wagging our tails while we wait for Mac to throw us the ball so that we can pick it up and run with it.

OK, so Intel is copying App... (Below threshold)
CrowScape:

OK, so Intel is copying Apple who is copying Shuttle. So when Apple copies someone (such as when Apple copied Xerox to get a GUI), it's called "innovation," but if someone copies them, well, they're just copycats.

pvaughan:It's simp... (Below threshold)
cirby:

pvaughan:

It's simple. Most corporations buy from the cheapest bidder. They can get Windows-based PCs for a lot less per unit than Macs. Of course, the PCs cost many times what the Macs do in support costs, but that's actually a feature, since those support dollars go into the unit's budget, making sure the guy who ordered the PCs to begin with gets more people working for him, and therefore pay raises since he's responsible for more people.

You also have the "well, everyone else buys PCs, we should too" effect.

CrowScape:

The Shuttle isn't a real computer, it's just a small dumb terminal with some local storage. If you want a predecessor for the Mac Mini, you need to look at the G4 Cube from five years ago...

By the way - Xerox got *paid* in stock for Apple getting a look at the Xerox GUI work (and if you think the Xerox Star was a lot like early Macs, you're dreaming again).

The big issue the PC supporters have is that they have very little knowledge of what's really been done over the last twenty years or so, who did it and in what order.

Cirby, no not really. It re... (Below threshold)

Cirby, no not really. It really doesn't matter who did it in what order. It doesn't matter who did it first. It's who does it BEST. That seems to be the real heart of the debate. IBM's business model blew Apple's out of the water.

WHO LICENSED OUT THEIR HARDWARE PACKAGE FOR REPRODUCTION? NOT APPLE, IBM PC!!!

Sure IBM lost a little by encouraging competition, but they created a PC world by doing so, and therefore promised their longevity. Apple is a great underdog, it has a loyal fanbase and a product that won't work in the mainstream, but works PERFECTLY for the small user-base that it has.

Paul:"And when I had... (Below threshold)
Addison:

Paul:
"And when I had a COULD FREAKING ADDRESS MORE THAN 640K OF MEMORY the nay-sayser said they did not need it... They when they got one they held it up as if it were from the gods."

And when you were doing that, I was using a preemptive multi-tasking OS for my personal PC (Amiga), and all the Mac users were saying that nobody needed that! and besides, the next Mac OS would be preemptive! Wait til OS 6! 7! Wait, no, 8! For sure! Well, it _WILL_ be in 9! Jobs promised! (Mac didn't manage it until they chunked MacOS and adopted UNIX).

In my day job, I was managing a network of Macs at the time. Quite ahead of their time. Back in 89.

Problem was, by the time I was doing far more serious networking in 98 and 99, the Mac networking hadn't changed in the slightest. Try and network them across subnets - and either you know what a mess that was, or you don't know of which you speak. The Macs on our Campus network cost us millions and 2 years as we tried to clear up the networking, setting up a coherent backbone, replacing the jury-rigged networks that various departments had built, and every time, EtherTalk broke it. We didn't get it working til we basically told the Mac users to either get with our program, or stick to only local resources. Yeah, yeah, we must have been idiots, I know, I know. Yeah, Mac's are perfect. Right. Forgot that again.

As for the rest of your strawmen, I'd set them on fire, but you'd still only see it through your Jobs RDF (tm) (r). It would be too tiring to cite all the issues I've had with Apple through the years. The support failures. The abandonment of contracts. Promises unfufilled.

For all those Mac advantages, I could cite you at least 2 disadvantages - and you'd be screaming you didn't need them, or they didn't matter to *you*.

And you know, if the Mac does it for *you*, GREAT. Hot damn. Capitalism works again. (Hopefully, you won't be one of the ones Jobs decides to "&*@%" Remember those "Tech Support for Life"?)

But when you tote up form factors as huge changes in "technology", or releasing a computer markedly underpowered compared to similarly-priced x86 competitors as "innovation", well, you just make parody impossible. And meanwhile, you want to make up arguments, put them in my mouth - without knowing my background, just makes my points better than I could.

"And when I had a GUI the n... (Below threshold)
Addison:

"And when I had a GUI the nay-sayser said they did not need it... They when they got one they held it up as if it were from the gods."

Point of historical fact. Xerox developed it. Apple swiped it. And the mouse, too. Want to give Apple the credit for popularizing it? Great - but it wasn't an Apple "Technology" innovation.

Henry:Actually, IB... (Below threshold)
cirby:

Henry:

Actually, IBM didn't license squat. They fought the cloners tooth and nail, but due to a faulty decision by their legal geniuses, Microsoft still owned MS-DOS. Microsoft sold MS-DOS to the cloners, and history changed. The early clone makers all had hard-fought legal battles, and we have a big clone market *despite* IBM.

Addison:

Mac networking issues in 1999? If you had problems with it, it was because you were using 1989-model Macs with 1990-version OS 6. Claiming that Mac networking hadn't changed between 1989 and 1999 just shows that you didn't use a Mac after, oh, 1990 or so.

I've *never* had anything like a serious problem with Macs networking, but I've seen insane amounts of problems with PCs using Microsoft's half-assed networking systems.

Every time I hear a PC fan going on and on about "advantages," it breaks down to "I know how to fix problems with PCs, and when I treat Macs like PCs, they don't break in the same fashion."

I've actually had PC nuts complain about how Macs didn't have that many antiviral programs, for example. And every time someone told me that their PCs never had problems (or that they were minimal, at best), a quick look at the USENET support groups turned up the same guys posting all sorts of comments saying exactly the opposite to PC folks.

And then another goober sai... (Below threshold)
Paul:

And then another goober said:

. They always seem to remind the world that "Mac did it first" whenever they get lapped. No, that's right, Mac's still ahead. Let's look at the bench scores when Intel releases their 64 bit system.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You don't get the point. By the time Intel releases it's 64-bit system Apple will have been shipping thiers probably 2 years!

Nice try.

You prove my point perfectly.

You are acting like Apple being 64 bit is no big deal then when Intel is FINALLY 64 bit you will be crowing like you have something.

Yes, the worrd is loser.

Well the evil MAC people ha... (Below threshold)

Well the evil MAC people have done their dirty deed in our home. Ever since we got each other iPods for Valentine's Day, we've been thinking of going all MAC with our next set of upgrades.

It's a matter of pure simplicity and form with function. If they put that much brain sweat into making a stupid lil music box work, I'm thinking their computers have got to have something going on.

Uh, the Shuttle is a barebo... (Below threshold)
CrowScape:

Uh, the Shuttle is a barebones system, which means that you get a case, a powersupply, and a MoBo, and you provide the processor, harddrive, disc drive, memory, and possibly videocard (in the Shuttle's case, you can include a videocard). Seeing as how people have made complete video editing stations out of 'em (decent ones at that), the Shuttle is only a terminal if the person putting it together wants it to be just a terminal.

Paul: The x86 world went 64... (Below threshold)
CrowScape:

Paul: The x86 world went 64-bit before Apple. You could have bought an Opteron system from several vendors in the same pricerange Apple was offering the G5s when they came late to the party. The difference: AMD didn't feel the need to lie about being the first 64-bit PC.

But we'll see how quickly Apple has to play follow the leader when AMD and Intel's Dual Core chips ship, just as they played follow the leader with Gigabit Ethernet, PCI-Express (whoops, still waiting there), AGP, SATA, 64-bit, etc., etc. Ah, don't want to talk about those, eh? Yup, Mac copies from PCs as much as PCs copy from them. Everyone copies from each other. Singling one company out and lauding another is what we like to call "hypocracy."

When is everyone going to s... (Below threshold)
JimK:

When is everyone going to stop sucking Apple's stem and realize they stole the mini form factor from other companies? Companies that made PCs, BTW.

God I hate zealots.

When is everyone going t... (Below threshold)
Paul:

When is everyone going to stop sucking Apple's stem and realize they stole the mini form factor from other companies? Companies that made PCs, BTW.

Then why exactly is Intel trying to urge people to steal the form factor form Apple?

God I hate zealots.

Quick! Sell all your mirrors!

CrowScape said:... (Below threshold)
Paul:

CrowScape said:

Paul: The x86 world went 64-bit before Apple. You could have bought an Opteron system from several vendors in the same pricerange Apple was offering the G5s when they came late to the party.

hmmmm

------------------
http://linuxjournal.com/article/6823
AMD64 Opteron Released Today (dated April 21 2003)

No OS supported it and you could not even buy a board with it but by golly the chip was released!
------------------

------------------
Apple G5 histroy

Introduced: June 2003
Terminated: June 2004
------------------

A complete selling system delivered over 2 years ago.

Meanwhile Intel STILL doesn't have 64 bit and does Windows even support the AMD yet???

Once again we were running complete systems years before you guys...

But you just keep the faith, don't let pesky things like facts get in your way.

"But you just keep the fait... (Below threshold)
Addison:

"But you just keep the faith, don't let pesky things like facts get in your way."

Paul: since it's obvious you're funnelling the Kool-aid, I won't bother telling you you need to calm down about this.

Intel's been 64-bit for years. So's AMD. That's not even counting what you could get from Sun, who's been 64-bit for how long? Oh, Desktops, you're talking about. Well, see, you didn't define that initially, so it makes you look worse when you're changing the parameters later.

What you're missing is that the people who've tried to point out that your rant is emotional and devoid of useful fact, we aren't trying to tell you NOT to use a Mac. Nor are we being particularly smug that we don't on a day-to-day. But your ... well, arguments is the wrong word, facts ain't right, they're in the realm of the Rather documents "They're fake! But Accurate!"... Blinded, slavish, bigoted devotion to a computer, an emotional investment that makes you feel superior, because you purchase from a certain company - one that not everyone has had a good experience with - is just silly.

There's a reason they call it the "Mac Jihad". Anybody reading through this would come to the same conclusion.

For instance: Even let's presume Apple shipped 64-bit before AMD or Intel. What did that buy you? What's the advantage of a 64-bit system over a 32-bit? What applications did you use that were able to take advatange of that?
Or, is it like the form factor, a marketing point that didn't mean much [at that time]?
I'm about to build my new home PC. I'm sticking with Athlon, because nothing I do would benefit from Opteron. Sure, if I just wanted to DO IT, I'd go get an 8-way Opteron. Not too long ago, I tried to get a 4-way Opteron for work, to replace a 4-way SPARC that's old. For 1/2 the money of the replacement 2-way SPARC that we ordered, I could have gotten a 4-way Opteron that's multiples faster.
(Speaking of milestones, for that high-end graphics work that Apple excels at, how many SMP processors can you get in your Mac?)
You're still trying the "argument from authority" on us, but it won't work. Most of us know that Mac _didn't_ innovate all that much. And what they did innovate - and good for them! - we now have access to. I don't know anybody who poo-pooed USB or Firewire, to use your strawmen. I know lots of us who didn't care much about it, since there were nothing to plug into the ports at the time. As accessories showed up, we got the capability. If you want to point someone at something someone particular said - then you might have a point. But telling me that I said something that sounds like a Best Buy salesman just means you sound that dumb, not I.

Cirby: No.

Addison, You sure can type ... (Below threshold)
Paul:

Addison, You sure can type a whole lot of words and not say a damn thing.

You have no real world examples but you hope if you babble long enough you'll look impressive.

I love these religious disc... (Below threshold)
kgowen:

I love these religious discussions!

Paul said Meanwhile Inte... (Below threshold)
martyr:

Paul said Meanwhile Intel STILL doesn't have 64 bit and does Windows even support the AMD yet???

Umm, Isn't OSX just a rebranded BSD distro running on an IBM Power CPU? I'm about certain that BSD and Linux have supported the Itanium (IA64) since late 2001. I'm not sure why you think that Windows is required for the PC "experience"

BTW - how much did you pay for your last bugfix? Mine were free...

If Macs are better and m... (Below threshold)
DBub:

If Macs are better and more advanced than PCs, then why are they not more prevalent? Why aren't corporations snapping them up and installing them throughout.

By that logic the Ford Taurus is the best and most advanced car since it is the most popular company car.

Dbub, no it just means that... (Below threshold)

Dbub, no it just means that the company has a better business model.

If you kids don't stop this... (Below threshold)
Honest Abe:

If you kids don't stop this ruckus right now, I'm callin the cops! And I don't care who started it!

Paul, you can crack jokes a... (Below threshold)
JimK:

Paul, you can crack jokes all day, but the FACT is that Apple stole the form factor from at least three companies that were making PCs at far back as four years ago.

Grow up. And if you're going to be a zealot, at least be a KNOWLEGABLE zealot.

Oh, and lastly, where was P... (Below threshold)
JimK:

Oh, and lastly, where was Paul crying about the theft of ideas when Apple made a machine that was contained completly in the monitor?

See, Sony did that with the PC three years ago.

Cirby:I own a shut... (Below threshold)

Cirby:

I own a shuttle. It is a terminal? I must have been playing my half life 2 over SSH then ...




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