I can't believe I have to say this, but no one can be converted against their will. Because someone else may think they have converted you doesn't mean that you have actually been converted. To give it any more meaning than it merits, which is nada, is just baiting.

Oh, while I have your attention, what is your authority for the numbers you cited regarding the Catholic Church sex scandal? I asked you several times already to provide your proof. So, put up or shut up.

Tell that to the Jews, Julie. They have a rather lengthy history of being told to convert or die, convert or get exiled, convert or be tortured, etc. etc. etc. After a couple thousand years of repeated persecutions, they're understandably a smidgen touchy. Add that to their past history of being secretly put on lists, and they got MY sympathies in this matter.

J.

Jay,

Could you please provide links to stories about the most recent cases of Mormons performing proxy baptisms for Jews? I'm not doubting your claims, but you make it tough to respond when you provide no details.

My own take on this is, once the people are dead, no church can touch them -- and God isn't suddenly going to turn His back on someone's soul because of some ritual conducted back on earth. I imagine Him and the souls of the posthumously converted sitting up there in Heaven, looking down on the ritual and having a good laugh.

Only assuming, of course, that the Mormons are wrong...

Being a Methodist I do find that assumption easier than Gov. Romney might.

Or to put it more bluntly: If somebody decides to have me baptized as a Mormon after I die, they can have at it. It will only matter to other Mormons, and it certainly won't matter to me.

Tell that to the Jews, Julie.

I have, and I will again: It ain't for real!

I have also stated for the record that they are entitled to their feeling and to object to the practice. But you are not entitled to pretend that you are on higher moral ground for your position.

Now, why don't YOU tell us what is your authority for the stats you cited?

I'm mad at you enough to fucking convert just so I can convert you, Jay Tea!

Hey, Steve. I tried that approach last week. It didn't work.

It's a symbolic act, nothing more, but it's the presumptive arrogance that bothers me. I don't believe for a minute that it will affect whether or not anyone goes to heaven or hell but it's a matter of respect or lack of to treat another's beliefs that way and it's compounded when the other side's complaint is looked at as bashing. That's the equivalent of playing the race card. It would also be nothing more than a symbolic act if I rented a billboard on every main highway into Salt Lake City and that said "All Mormons Must Repent or Face an Eternity in Hell!" but I probably wouldn't live long enough to pay the second month's rent. They are telling everyone that's not a member their church the exact same thing, repent and become a Mormon or you'll burn in hell and want us to ignore it and consider it as something harmless. The act itself is harmless but the message it carries is offensive to me and should offend every non-Mormon in the world. Like I pointed out, it's not just jews who are being told that our religion is worthless, it's everyone, including the Roman Catholics. No other group has looked into this practice like the Jews have but I bet if they did they'd see that these lists include people already baptized in other Christian religions. There are less than 15 million Jews world-wide, around 1.9 billion Christians, 1.1 billion Muslims, and about 5 billion others spread out among the other faiths or having no faith at all. How many other people have they added to their "master list" of people they are willing to share space with in heaven? To argue that the other faiths also believe they are the ones with a pass for the pearly gates is downright silly, that's comparing apples and oranges, the other faiths aren't committing these proxy baptisms, at least that I know of. The Mormons appear to have a religious arbitron ratings system going, at least in their own minds, they seem driven to boost the numbers any way possible. There's something very, very wrong with that kind of thinking.

I can't decide who I think is sillier. Those who think they're "converting" the dead, or those who are worried about it.

They are telling everyone that's not a member their church the exact same thing, repent and become a Mormon or you'll burn in hell and want us to ignore it and consider it as something harmless.

Big deal! People have been telling me that in one form or another all my life. Try having some guy follow you around downtown Oakland screaming "Whore of Babylon!" at you. It didn't mean I was a whore (tho, I have been to, Babylon). Anyway, you know what I mean.

You want an example of very very wrong thinking? How about somebody who makes up statistics in order to portray a religion in the worse light?

Julie, if you are referring to me and saying that I'm making any part of this up I'd sure like to know what part you think that is.

Update: I accidentally posted the wrong link on the first posting. The story on the baptisms is here.

What? No time to find and post the link I requested?

Hey Bullwinkle:

It would also be nothing more than a symbolic act if I rented a billboard on every main highway into Salt Lake City and that said "All Mormons Must Repent or Face an Eternity in Hell!" but I probably wouldn't live long enough to pay the second month's rent.

Uh, as the saying goes, been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

Do really, really believe all that loony drivel about the Danites and Mormon murderers and other such nonsense?

I attended a session at the LDS General Conference in SLC just 10 days ago, and the sidewalk next to Temple Square was lined with about a dozen evangelical street preachers who were carry signs and shouting a nearly identical message.

Not one was injured or molested, despite the fact there were thousands of Mormons surrounding them.

So if you do wish to rent said billboards, come on over. There's several evangelical Christian groups that consider it their sacred mission to bash the Mormon religion, right outside Temple Square, and I'm sure they'd be glad to support your efforts.

Almost everyone else will just yawn and keep walking.

Don't read things into what I am saying, please.

Read what I quoted. I don't care what other people think is going to happen to me in the afterlife.

I'm with you on this, Jay. The whole "elder" thing is absolutely ridiculous, and a complete slap in the face to Biblical theology and etymology. I too have seen the "elders" much younger than myself, and I'm not even 29 yet (not by much tho). I was, however, amused one time at the DFW airport to see an "elder" picked for a gateside security search on a flight to Knoxville.

Oh, and damn you, Jay, for locking the other thread (kidding, of course :-D ). I had a nice, loooong post written up about some of the really weird beliefs (and an explanation of why it's considered a cult) held in Mormonism. And I didn't spare the Catholics, either. Oh well...<sniff>

The Mormons really, really need to re-think one aspect of their practices.

Oh, yeah? Maybe you really, really need to re-think one of yours? You know, the one where you rely on statistics but can't cite where you got them from?

I'll give you a personal example of this practice
5yrs ago my daughter's Godmother lost her duaghter to a highway shooting. Being Greek Orthodox the body lies in an open casket for 24 yrs before the funeral. Sometime during the early morning hours of the vigil at the church this baptism was performed and evidence was left in the coffin.
Perhaps it was meaningless act on this young woman's soul. But for a family going through more grief than anyone deserves, it was one more stress that they didn't need.

Yep, they'll just keep yawning and walking and promising to stop a practice that shows a total lack of respect for anyone else's beliefs and keep doing it anyway. Then when someone complains they'll feel like they are being persecuted, maybe even promise once again to stop doing it. if they truly are going to be in the special inner ring of heaven I'll opt for one for one the outer rings where the honest religions hang out. Just to give everyone else that hasn't had the honor of visiting Utah I was arrested in the early 80's for having a Budweiser beach towel in public view at the Great Salt Lake and refusing to hide it. They sure didn't keep yawning and walking that day.

I assume, DianeK, that you meant 24 hours, not 24 years. :)

RE: 24yrs-24hrs

Yes Raina. Thank you :)

I just knew you were a convicted felon!

Uh, you do know you can be arrested/ticketed in Venice, Italy for being inappropriately dressed on the street, i.e., no shirt, don't you? Damn Italianos!

"All three examples have one element in common: people inducting others into their religion."

No, only two of those examples are of people inducting others into their faith. The Mormons baptism for the dead does not induct others into their faith. It has absoutely no efffect on those people as far as their current status is concerned in this life or in the next life unless they accept there.

OBTW, I agree on the original story too, Jay. The Jews have had too much suffering (albeit some of it due punishment for rampant sinfulness centuries ago) for such an insult to be taken lightly. The Jews are still God's chosen people, and we as Christians are adopted Jews, in a sense. The Mormons, OTOH, can't hold a candle or even a spark to the amount of suffering the Jews or even the Christians have suffered (yes, I do separate the Christians from the Mormons). The Jews have Hitler and Babylon, the Christians have Rome and Nero, the Mormons have Nauvoo and polygamy (although I'll have to grant the polygamy; some people have trouble with just 1 mother-in-law. Some of you guys had literally dozens!). Come talk to us in another 1800 years; we'll compare "religious scars".

Sorry, a little "persecution pride" showing there, I guess. (smacks self on cheek) Equating Mormon suffering with Jewish suffering (just in the 20th Century alone), and then in essence taking even that from them to assuage some misguided sense of righteousness, seems to me the height of arrogance. That's more intolerant than most people think mainstream Christians are. That is obscene.

It was a misdemeanor and I fought it and won. I also learned a very important term for the people of Utah from my lawyer during the trial, Utards. Fitting, to say the least. No about you getting arrested for going topless in Venice, we need more details.....

That should read "Now, about you getting arrested in venice" but I was laughing too hard to type.

In light of some of my comments in the previous thread, I really should keep a lid on my emotions and discuss the issues at hand.

But I am truly amazed and even frustrated by the sheer amount of ignorance and even bigotry towards Mormonism displayed by otherwise decent, intelligent and educated persons.

It makes me realize that when some people call Mormonism a cult, they really do consider it to be a cult. To them, it's not a "legitimate" religion, and thus its members have no inherent "right" to their own beliefs (the "we've been around for 4,000 years and you've only existed for 175" argument).

For example, no one in their right mind would suggest to Jews that they stop observing their religion because it might offend Muslims (well, no one other than the French government).

Yet when some Jews are offended by Mormon practices that by any measure, way, shape or form are not equivalent to violent, forced conversions of living persons, Mormons are expected to immediately abandon the practice and modify their beliefs.

This issue will never be resolved, because to resolve it Mormons would have to essentially give up a signficant part of their religion. After all, if we allow the Jews to dictate who we can baptize by proxy, who's next? I'm sure many Catholics are offended by proxy baptisms.

Come to think of it, alot of people from many different religious traditions would be. So the only way to "fix" the problem is for Mormons to stop being Mormon.

Sorry, can't do that. First Amendment and all that stuff.

I wonder how many millions and billions of infants have been baptised in the world without their knowledge or consent?

And I wonder how many millions and billions of prayers have been said for dead people without their knowledge or consent?

Do you equally disparage the people of the world that engage in these customs?

And if not, why the intolernance for Mormons?

That should read "Now, about you getting arrested in venice" but I was laughing too hard to type.

I hope you laughed as hard as I did when I read that you had pay for a lawyer. :p

Diane K:

I'll give you a personal example of this practice
5yrs ago my daughter's Godmother lost her duaghter to a highway shooting. Being Greek Orthodox the body lies in an open casket for 24 yrs before the funeral. Sometime during the early morning hours of the vigil at the church this baptism was performed and evidence was left in the coffin.
Perhaps it was meaningless act on this young woman's soul. But for a family going through more grief than anyone deserves, it was one more stress that they didn't need.

You have got to be kidding me.

You actually believe that this was a proxy baptism conducted by Mormons?

Do you even have a clue how proxy baptisms are performed?

Come to think of it, does anyone here have a frickin' clue how proxy baptisms are performed?

Based on some of the comments that have been posted, that would be a definite NO.

DianeK,

The person whom you said was allegedly baptized as she lay in state was not baptized by the LDS Church.

I'm not going to get into the argument of whether it's right or wrong, but I can tell you, we do not dunk dead bodies. We do not sprinkle dead bodies. We do not sprinkle ANYONE. Baptisms for the dead are done by proxy, i.e. a stand-in and they are performed in the LDS temples and ONLY in LDS temples. We are not hanging around funeral parlors with a pitcher of water waiting for the next available cadaver to splash.

Mike

And, that shd have read, I hope you laughed as hard as I did when I read that you had to pay for a lawyer. :p

I'd like to blame it on laughter, but it's due to lack of sleep. But, I won't go to sleep until I confront Jay Tea. Have you seen him? Where's he hiding?

As a Mormon I'd like to point out a few things.

We (as a rule) aren't simply baptizing everyone who had died. We are baptizing those who have had the "work" done for them. Meaning someone has researched their family history, found someone who isn't a member and prayerfully put forth their name for consideration. That means, in most cases, the name has been submitted by someone who is in a position to make such a decision by virtue of being a descendent.

Aside from that, there is also the fact that the dead are under no obligation to accept the work that has been done for them. If you accept the premise that God exists and in some manner we continue after death, just because we have baptized them (or sealed them, etc) doesn't mean they automatically accept this. They can still say no.

Mormonism is big on freedom of choice (as a church, but as for some members...well I can't think of saying anything about that that wouldn't make me sound like a hypocrite so I won't).

Also, I'd like to ask, what does it really matter? If Mormonism is the one true church then this work is being done at his command. If its not, then so what? I fail to see how the God of the one true church going to hold our actionsagainst those who had no part in it.

It was either pay a lawyer or plead guilty, the judge wouldn't allow me to defend myself. No way in hell was I going to pay a fine, even if the lawyer cost me 10 times what the fine was. My insurance paid the legal bill anyway, so I wasn't out much more than having to stay an extra day.