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Police Arrest, Handcuff 5-Year Old Girl After Tantrum

Just when you thought you've seen everything...

girlcuffed01.jpggirlcuffed02.jpg


Administrators at Fairmount Park Elementary in her St. Petersburg, Fla., had a 5 year-old girl arrested for doing what many 5 year-olds do - having a tantrum. What's different about this case is that most of the action just so happed to be caught on videotape.

According to 10News, the child wound up in handcuffs and leg restraints, which Police say was an appropriate response. The state's attorney apparently disagreed and refused to prosecute the five year old. ABC News quotes the attorney for the family of the girl:

"The police officers' actions are way over the top. Three police officers having to forcibly handcuff a 5-year-old little girl? I mean, come on," said John Trevena, the family's attorney. "Is there anything more that needs to be said about that?"

He was also critical of the actions of Dibenedetto and Tsaousis, who he said could have done more to calm the girl.

"I'm concerned that the educators shadowed and hovered around the young girl," he said. "It certainly gives credence to the argument that they may have been provoking her to act out more. To me, it didn't look like a de-escalation. It looked like an escalation, an attempt to get her to act out more. I just don't understand why they didn't distance themselves back further and allow things to cool off."

If you watch the video you'll hear this quote from one of the three officers who "Do you remember me?" one of them asks the girl. "I'm the one who told your mom I'd put handcuffs on you."

I watched through all of the video tapes, and a much as I want to give the benefit of the doubt to the school, there's nothing on the tape that warrants the police treatment, in fact there's nothing on the tape that warrants police presence. The initial outburst occurs before the first tape starts, but as the parent of two stubborn 3 1/2 year old boys there wasn't anything on those tapes I'd never seen before, which I imagine is true for many of you as well.

What do you think?

Classroom Video [SPTimes]
Office Video [SPTimes]
Police Handcuff 5-Year-Old After Tantrum [ABC]
Video of 5-year-old getting arrested, leaving school in handcuffs [10 News]


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Comments (343)

What is going on in FL with... (Below threshold)
Red:

What is going on in FL with how children are being treated? Either child services loses them, they are being abducted, killed or put in handcuffs.

Its a child for god's sake, have a little finess. But, children don't vote do they?

That child didn't need hand... (Below threshold)
Alex:

That child didn't need handcuffs, she needed a good spanking.

I agree that what she reall... (Below threshold)
OregonMuse:

I agree that what she really needs is a spanking. But there's also this bit:

If you watch the video you'll hear this quote from one of the three officers who "Do you remember me?" one of them asks the girl. "I'm the one who told your mom I'd put handcuffs on you."

This indicates that there's a whole lotta backstory on this we haven't heard.

The kids parents wouldn't h... (Below threshold)
Mays:

The kids parents wouldn't have spanked that child, which explains the behavior to begin with. Notice how the child calmed down once the LEO arrived. I think this is exactly what the little fucker needed. My god, if I acted like that growing up, I wouldn't be sitting here today. I would be dead. What happened to the days when schools could paddle kids who acted up like this? Little fucker.

Yeah, they should have just... (Below threshold)

Yeah, they should have just tasered the kid.

Ok... kidding.

Another reason why they should go back to letting the teachers disipline the children, like when I was growing up. We got paddled, smacked on the hands and verbally talked to when we got out of line - in public school. Now, (yes, I'm going to blame the liberals) thanks to the liberal whining and their bullshit, if you look at a student funny you get in trouble. That's why these kids grow up with no respect at all.

This little girl obviously has behavioral issues and the police have dealt with her or her family before. And in this case, had to because no one else would or was afraid to. The kid needed to be restrained, and rather than risk a lawsuit the teacher had little option but to call someone who could restrain her.

I've worked with kids in this area (St. Petersburg/Bradenton) at the Boys & Girls club, we never had to call the cops because unlike teachers, we were allowed to restrain and punish a child if they got unruly.

And it's hard to compare your children to this child. You might not see it, but there are plenty of parental issues behind this childs behavior that probably don't exist in your house - nor in mine. My children are taught respect, therefore I would never expect something like this to happen. It's unfortunate that the cops had to come to restrain the girl, but neccessary, as obviously the teacher could not do anything without fear of retribution.

Spanking would be the right... (Below threshold)

Spanking would be the right thing but you'd get arrested for it. Maybe the mother wanted to put a good scare into the kid, no doubt she probably needed it, as long as it didn't go any further than this. I've put the fear of God into my kids when they were little but up to a point so they never do that again. If this went further, then that's going too far but if this is it and it's going to make that little girl think twice next time, then I'm all for it.

Cindy

You know, over the last cou... (Below threshold)
OregonMuse:

You know, over the last couple of years, I have heard of an increasing number of these incidents, i.e. school children acting out in some way that in times past would have been dealt with by parents or school officials, and the kid ends up being led away in handcuffs by local law enforcement officials.

Why?

Have school administrators gotten so gun shy about liability lawsuits that they think that this their only recourse in the case of a disruptive student?

Florida sure does seem to b... (Below threshold)
Sue Dohnim:

Florida sure does seem to be a nice social laboratory these days.

"Do you remember me?" one o... (Below threshold)

"Do you remember me?" one of them asks the girl. "I'm the one who told your mom I'd put handcuffs on you."

That might work with a 14-year old. Whatever else is going on - and I agree mostly with the comments about teachers no longer having the necessary authority - this was a terribly poor way of handling the situation. But cops can only do what cops can do, which doesn't include proficiency in child psychology, and teachers can only do what they can do.

It should have been the parents' responsibility, like it was when a similar incident happened to a friend. She went, picked up the screaming kindergartner (literally), took him home and dealt with it. Never had the problem again, and that kid is one of the nicest.

My mother was an elementary... (Below threshold)
Lo-Pan:

My mother was an elementary school principal for many years before retiring four years ago. Near the end of her tenure, it wasn't uncommon for her to call the police to come restrain an uncontrollable child. The little darlings would go berzerk in her office, screaming, kicking, pushing over desks, etc. But god help her if she ever laid a hand on one of them. The police had no such qualms, however. Also, the brat's patents could often care less if the kid got dentention or a suspension, but when they got a call from the cops, that usually got their attention.

This kid need a can of Whoo... (Below threshold)
Rets:

This kid need a can of Whoop ass opened up on her. Take that back, she needed a 6 pack of Whoop ass. It starts at home folks. The teachers did what they could without themselves getting into trouble. What happen to the days when the teacher could give you a spanking and for that matter when moms used to get the "wooden spoon" out.

* Corporal punishment at s... (Below threshold)

* Corporal punishment at school banned.

* Defensive parents leaping to excuse their kids, do not discipline them at home.

* Rampant diagnosis of ADD and other disorders force schools to tolerate inexcusable conduct from children.

Schools are quickly running out of options.

They ought to fire the jerk... (Below threshold)

They ought to fire the jerk who said "I'm the one who told your mom to put handcuffs on you". If those pussies can't handle a five year old child without putting handcuffs on her, then they need to find a new line of work.

Society is getting ridiculous when we have to resort to cops to handle each and every situation.

I wonder how often this hap... (Below threshold)
Richard Heddleson:

I wonder how often this happens at private schools.

I have subbed in our local ... (Below threshold)
Just Me:

I have subbed in our local schools a lot, and the kids these days just seem a lot more angry.

I also think parents are conflict avoiders, and they give in too quickly with their kids, and reinforce tantruming behaviors, then the kid gets to school, where big surprise, the world does not revolve around them.

Also, teachers pretty much don't have too many disciplinary options other than taking away reccess, which pretty much sucks as punishment IMO.

I won't disagree that the k... (Below threshold)
Dave Eaton:

I won't disagree that the kid needed to be disciplined.

Handcuffing the child was ridiculous. She's five. The can of whoopass required, as someone so lyrically suggested, would be only a thimble full, if anyone there had any guts, or actually cared about the correction of the child's behavior.

For instance, if I were the principal, I and a staff member (and the school systems attorney, if I was worried that much) would sit her down in isolation. She could rage and scream until her lungs fell out, but I can outlast a five-year-old without police assistance. Unpleasant children, even really disruptive children, aren't a police matter. In Florida, they have plenty of work to do elsewhere.

Given that "remember me?...... (Below threshold)
mcg:

Given that "remember me?..." quote, something tells me that the mother was in cahoots with the cops somehow, and in fact encouraged them to arrest her to "teach her a lesson". If so that mother ought to be given a serious tongue lashing, if not a physical one, and perhaps her parental rights stripped. Oh, yeah, and the cop ought to be fired regardless.

I have mixed feelings about... (Below threshold)

I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I certainly agree that much has been lost in the way of education since the days that schools and school districts could deal with this through corporal punishment and/or detention (not "ISS", mind you, dark broom-closet style detention). That said, this child obviously has a history of this sort of outburst, and while everyone thinks it's "over-the-top" for her to be handcuffed at this age, the fact remains that tantrums at this age may well lead to massacres in the teen years.

On the other hand, though, I can see where some damage is being done here. The parents (or more likely, parent) and teachers should be able to deal with this without getting police involved. If nothing else, this child stands a great chance of growing up with even more resentment for authority, especially when it wears a badge.

Boo frickin hoo. Kevin, I'... (Below threshold)

Boo frickin hoo. Kevin, I'm quite sure that even on a bad day, your kids wouldn't be as cracked-out and disrespectful as this little snot was to her teachers, however castrated they are to responding in a way that constructively teaches her the necessary lesson.

The crafty little sucker was just getting away with what she could until the real muscle arrived. Miraculous repentance! Cue the tears.

Her reaction was the 5 year-old's version of, "What, me?"

Tantrums at five could lead... (Below threshold)
Dave Eaton:

Tantrums at five could lead to massacres in the future? We'll have to handcuff all five year olds.

In fact, I'll bet every person responsible for a massacre (there have to be a dozen or so, right?) had tantrums at two or three years old. Unfortunately, so did the other 300 million people who didn't massacre anyone.

We hear a lot about massacres, but they are very rare. Brutalizing every kid who has a tantrum is unlikely to change that number significantly in either direction.

"That makes me so sad....yo... (Below threshold)

"That makes me so sad....you broke her apple"

That's a hell of alot more restraint that I would have. From what I'm seeing, the teachers are not doing anything to stop her as in physically restraining her (probably for fear of a lawsuit). The teacher keeps going "Not Acceptable" which means absolute crap to the little girl. There are ways to restrain a child when they are doing something that you have continually asked them NOT to do. It doesn't take brain surgery, just proper training and a parent whose willing to sign a liability waiver.

It's not the police who wer... (Below threshold)
TrollSlayer:

It's not the police who were over the top; it's the educators. They had no business calling the police in the first place. The appropriate response to this situation would have been to put the girl in a room by herself (an empty conference room, for example), suspend her, and call her parents to come pick her up. They could have then warned the parents that if they could not find a way for their child to behave in school, the girl would have to be expelled.

I had my own experience once with stupid educators calling the police when I was 18. Long story short, I went to my little sister's elementary school to pick my sister up. A few hours later, I got a phone call from the police asking if I had attacked a girl at the school. Apparently a sixth-grader had run into the school ahead of me, breathlessly telling her teacher that I had chased her into the building. Instead of asking me about this while I was there like normal people would, the administrators quickly and quietly called the police. I was gone with my sister long before the police arrived, and they spent some time mulling over school video camera footage before they figured out who I was. Apparently the fact that children sometimes lie to get attention was completely lost on them.

I blame behavior like this on the fact that most school teachers are Democrats. 'Nuff said.

This is the foolishness whi... (Below threshold)
jumbo:

This is the foolishness which results when today's concept of "in loco parentis" doesn't permit spanking. For which you can thank lawyers and the hyper-litigious "what about my rights?" crowd. That spoiled rebellious brat needed her bottom warmed, just as mine was, just as my children's were.

I give it about 17 seconds before it becomes racial.....

1st, Kudos to the school st... (Below threshold)

1st, Kudos to the school staff for not losing it and doing something they'd definitely get in trouble for. I would never had been able to show the restraint. This is likely a reason I'm not involved in the education system or law enforcement.

2nd, that kid needed something drastic to be done. She obviously has no respect for authority unless you are wearing a badge and a gun. And how long do you think that will last with her? Can you imagine her at 13? The cuffs hopefully made an impression on the girl that acting out like this has consequences.

3rd, the cuffs were necessary from the police standpoint to ensure the safety of the girl and the officers. Had she been taken to the car without some sort of restraint, the kicking, hitting and screaming would have come back, resulting in the cops tightening their grip, the girl fighting harder, and so on. If you've ever handled a youngster in the midst of a tantrum, you'd be surprised how strong they become. I'm sure the officers could have restrained her without the cuffs - most adults could, but then we'd have an abuse lawsuit - which we'll probably have anyway.

damned if they do. damned if they don't.

Sorry, but all of you espos... (Below threshold)
itismedavid:

Sorry, but all of you esposing corporal punishment probably have it wrong. Don't get me worng, I used to feel that way too. Until 5 years ago when we adopted a special needs child that has tantrums similar to this.

I COULD beat her until she broke and it would not stop the tantrums. It is psychological. It is the only way the child knows how to get her point across. The educators are at fault for allowing it to escalate. TroolSlayer had it right that the response should have been

The appropriate response to this situation would have been to put the girl in a room by herself (an empty conference room, for example), suspend her, and call her parents to come pick her up.

Now, the child knows that she will definitely get attention and her point across by acting this way so it will not be the last we hear of her.

Well, OK, hearing some of t... (Below threshold)
mcg:

Well, OK, hearing some of the other points softens my view a little bit. I'm willing to hear it all out. But I tell you what, this would never have happened if teachers could still put a paddle to your ass for acting up.

Ha! No sooner do I decide t... (Below threshold)
mcg:

Ha! No sooner do I decide to post that than itsmedavid crossposts a counterpoint :) itsmedavid, you make a reasonable point, corporal punishment isn't going to work for everyone. But its strength is primarily in the [i]threat[/i] of its use. That is, for every kid who ultimately gets spanked there are many who would have acted up but for fear of being that one. I'm open to any alternate form of punishment that strikes a similar fear.

Due to my father's AF Reser... (Below threshold)
Captain Ned:

Due to my father's AF Reserve duties, I got to spend an enjoyable year (1971-1972, 3rd grade) at the Prattville Primary School in Prattville, Alabama (suburb of Montgomery). Mind you, up 'til then I'd been educated in the best liberal Vermont fashion. On the very first day of school my teacher took from her drawer a hard maple paddle, walked to the front of the room, and started slapping it against her hand Buford Pusser-style. It became exceedingly clear in that moment that I would not fsck up in that class. When punishment was needed, it was swift and unrelenting. The miscreant was taken into the hallway, where his (never saw/heard a girl get paddled) yelps would meld with the slap of the paddle. The way the school was laid out, everyone heard what was going on.

There were few discipline problems at Prattville Primary School.

i've agreed with itsmedavid... (Below threshold)

i've agreed with itsmedavid's point from the start. The best option is to lock the child in a room by herself, then allow her to scream to her hearts content until she realizes her tantrum will not win her any attention.

spoilt brat.

Will a closet do? :)... (Below threshold)
mcg:

Will a closet do? :)

Ugly. I have mixed feeling... (Below threshold)
penny:

Ugly. I have mixed feelings about this: sorrow that the kid's trajectory in life is straight down and that the school is an accomplice in this by demonstrating to her that they are rendered powerless by her bad behavior. I'm of an age and Catholic school education that the nuns would have whumped my ass and my mother would have been next in line.

That was then. This is now.

I have a daughter who is a teacher. She can't put her hands physically on a child to comfort them for fear of a lawsuit if they are hurt on the playground.

You can have all of the common sense in the world but it is voided by fear of child molestation/abuse allegations that come out of left field. And by "left", I mean the left that will not tolerate commonsense as a viable way of living anymore.

To the person who said this... (Below threshold)

To the person who said this, "The kids parents wouldn't have spanked that child, which explains the behavior to begin with.", and to all the others that agreed with the "whoop ass" bit, you are so clueless as to what it takes to raise a child properly.

I have two boys and have never had to resort to any spanking. They do great in school, are highly praised by teachers and principals, have awesome grades. Spanking is NEVER required if you raise your child right ... from the moment they are born.

And that includes lots of love and attention, and making the line clear of what is acceptable and not acceptable behavior.


It seems most commenters op... (Below threshold)

It seems most commenters operate from the assumption that this child's tantrum stems from unruliness, a lack of parental discipline, or some other conscious behavioral fault. As the parent of a child with an autistic condition, I dealt with tantrums like this for seven years. It is quite possible, if not likely, that this child suffer's from a disability similar to my son's -- in which she is incapable of processing the information necessary (i.e., be quiet or we are going to punish you) to self-regulate her behavior, resulting in a spiraling out-of-control ("melt-down," as it is called). Even if she could understand that she wants to conrol herself, she is incapable of it. The only way to address it is to remove her from the situation -- similar to what Henry said (without the lock) -- and let her complete her meltdown free of restraint, usually out of physical exhaustion.

I am certain there are those reading this that scoff, quite convinced my comment is one of those "a disability for every abberant behavior" beliefs of clueless parents. Don't be smug in your self-assurance. And thank God every single day that you have healthy children.

After years of treatment, special education, "behavior plans," psychiatric treatment, and (gulp) medication, along with a good deal of intellectual growth, the once uncontrollable child in this house is able to see his meltdowns beore they occur, and avoid them by expressing himself verbally and appropriately.

Many will not be so lucky. Particularly those whose inexplicable tantrums continue to be treated as though their conduct is deliberate or designed to attract "attention."

Sorry if this sounds a tad sanctimonious. I've endured too many of those "looks" in the supermarket, those rsvp "regrets," and a lot more, from the presumptuous parents of perfect children.

Blogworthy said:* ... (Below threshold)

Blogworthy said:

* Defensive parents leaping to excuse their kids, do not discipline them at home.

* Rampant diagnosis of ADD and other disorders force schools to tolerate inexcusable conduct from children.

Count your blessings, my friend. And don't spread that gross generalization too thin!

Angie, you are blessed beyo... (Below threshold)

Angie, you are blessed beyond measure that your children are so easily controlled. Either that, or your guidelines of "acceptable behaviour" are so broad that a only a certifiable psychopath would violate them.

Strange that you call me "clueless" about raising a child properly, seeing as I have the experience of raising five of my own, including a set of triplet girls. Do I spank them often? No. Do I spank them properly? Yes. I know this may be beyond your grasp, because of the angelic nature of your own offspring, but children sometimes do things that are just bad, even if they are raised "right."

My children don't fear me or my wife, but they do know that disobedience is not tolerated, and that defiance of authority will be punished. That's something that the girl in the video obviously didn't know, and although you don't disclose the age of your children (mine range from 5 to 15), I'd be willing to bet that they're not particularly hesitant to challenge authority either, even if they do back down with relatively little pressure. My word of caution is, if they are young now, the amount of pressure needed to keep them in line increases unbelievably when the hormones start to flowing.

That assistant principal is... (Below threshold)
brooklyn teach:

That assistant principal is pathetic. She had no authority in her voice, no tactic other than repeating the same lame "not acceptable", no disciplinary skills at all. A good teacher doesn't need to spank/beat stubborn kids in order to get them in line. You notice the cops don't beat the girl to get her to sit down - as soon as she saw an adult whose authority she respected, she sat her butt down and got quiet. She probably would have done the exact same thing when her mom arrived. I've seen kids bulldoze weak, whiny, clueless teachers like this, driving them to tears, and when a strong teacher or parent gets on the scene, it's another story entirely. The problem is not that the teacher can't paddle kids, it's that she can't imagine any way to deal with kids besides whining with her hands up and "no ma'am" (uh, the kid should be calling you ma'am; you're revealing how little power you have). Between "no ma'am" and whipping, a good educator has 1,000,000 approaches for difficult kids -- I'm certainly agreeing that kid is being difficult -- and she has zip - zero.

I went to elementary school... (Below threshold)
Dave Eaton:

I went to elementary school in Western Kentucky in the early 70's. Teachers were just beginning to experiment with idiocy like 'new math' and that ilk, while political correctness and self-esteem hysteria had not yet emerged. It was hard to learn much, and they didn't mind making you feel sort of stupid.

When I got out of line, and even occasionally when I didn't, I got a serious paddling. (Once for have an untied shoe.) Justice was swift and to the point, which was good, but could be arbitrary and brutal, which was not.

I would take exception to my kid getting the beating I took a few times. Teachers need to have the tools and authority to keep order, though. Without handcuffs or cops, preferrably.

I always find it amazing ho... (Below threshold)

I always find it amazing how many expert parents there are.

Coming in from outdoors, I ... (Below threshold)
Radios:

Coming in from outdoors, I saw the end portion of a Fox aired segment about this with Judge Napolitano and a Child Psychologist. The psychologist was very critical of the school and police response.

He contended this also had racial overtones and likely litigation would ensue. In the case, the out-of-control female student is African-American, all school staff appear to be White females and the psychologist was a male Afrcan American. The 3 officers were White; one was a female.

Looked to me like there might be more to the story.

Then I tried Wizbang to scope out the Caption Contest, and what should I see but this post.

I'm an early retiree HR Director/Manager and have handled issues in the workplace where workers had threatened or acted out. Colleagues at other employers in the region have had workplace fatalities due to violence at work.

I also sub teach 3-5 days a week from Pre-K to 12, including Special Ed; basically I accept whatever assignment they have a need for that is convenient for me. My undergrad is in Secondary Ed and my kids are grown, so I find it an enjoyable use of my time and a way to 'give back' a bit to the community.

I had parochial education through grade 10, and would never have made it alive out of 1st grade if I'd pulled more than 15 seconds of behavior like shown on the tape!

I watched the office tape and read the accompanying newpaper account before posting this. Obviously some posters have not read the newspaper account.

Some observations: The classroom is spacious and seems well equipped. The out-of-control student looks tall for her age, and is well dressed and not scruffy. The FOX tape showed the administrator present with a walkie-talkie, and trying to control her in ways that seemed appropriate. I have a dial-up so I did not view all of the classroom tape.

The office tape showed the student trashing the room, repeatedly striking at the V-P, and climbing repeatedly on the round table (likely a pedestal). The V-P acted to keep the student from injury, to protect herself from assault and to minimize the physical damage, in that order. The office outburst lasted more that 4 1/2 minutes before the kid quieted down. It appears that the arrival of the police was what got her attention, since they entered right afterwards.

Its clear from the officer comments and the newspaper account that the police had been summoned to deal with this student previously, and had warned her a repeat would get her removed.

The school and the police are in a lose-lose bind in this type of encounter. They have to control an unruly child who is capable of hurting themself, other students and adults, in addition to trashing the class, etc. In addition, they have a duty to provide a conducive environment for other students to learn in.

I think the school and police made good decisions here. The parent was called and could not be at the school in a timely fashion. The police acted to neutralize the child's ability to act out while in their custody, which removed the child's opportunity to harm herself or others while enroute to the station.

Earlier this year I subbed for a teacher who had been assaulted by a primary school student. He ran from his classroom while they were trying to call his parent, because of his behavior, and repeatedly hit a teacher in an adjoining room about the head and face with a phone handset when she was trying to summon assistance. She was out of work for several weeks before gradually returning to work on a part-time basis as she healed.

Other posters have commented on the changes we have accepted in society over the past few decades. Most, including me, rue taking effective disciplinary tools from teachers, while appearing to grant license to increasingly unruly students.

Students have a right to be educated in an atmosphere conducive to learning; students and teachers should not be exposed to assault in the school. Students like this should be out of the system until they can demonstrate that they can meet behavioral expectations on a continuing basis.

Anyone who teaches in public schools can quickly discern, with a high degree of accuracy, which students are getting good guidance at home. The 80/20 rule definitely applies.

We have a lot of people her... (Below threshold)
mcg:

We have a lot of people here arguing what constitutes good disciplinary technique from a parent's perspective. Well I have to tell you I'm not convinced that parental techniques map so easily to the public classroom. It's one thing when the parent-child ratio is 1:1 or 2:1, another thing with the teacher-child ratio is 1:20.

Now I'm willing to hear some genuine alternatives to restoring corporal punishment in the classroom. And some here have offered them. The good ones have to be scalable. I think that inevitably means some sort of stern but brief disciplinary techniques for the classroom... and for those that do not respond to those techniques, the child has to be separated to allow the rest of the class to progress, and only then more involved, in-depth, and individualized approaches can be considered.

A brief clarification on my... (Below threshold)
Radios:

A brief clarification on my 80/20 comment.

20% of students frequently consume 80% of your time due to their behavioral issues. They make learning a challenge for the 80% of students who are interested in learning, and who have behavior that is acceptable.

Yes, let's lock the li... (Below threshold)
lowmal:

Yes, let's lock the little hellion in a room, by herself, so she can resolve her tantrum.. And, while she's in there by herself, maybe she'll get injured, and the school will have a juicy, tax-dollar-sucking lawsuit on their hands..

Teachers should not have to be referees.. The onus for instilling proper respect for an authority figure falls directly on the parents..

I was not in a school which employed physical disipline.. That being said, this kind of abject disrespect would rarely, if ever, occur in my time.. (I'm 33, by the way.)

Kids used to have the Fear of God reverberate through their heads if a call to their parents was deemed neccessary..

Now, instead of being disiplinarians to their kids, parents are too busy trying to be friends with them..

Spank the little shit.. Better yet, bludgeon the parents..

I was expelled my first day... (Below threshold)
epador:

I was expelled my first day of Nursery School when I asked for a hamburger instead of a cheeseburger (both available at the lunch table), and was physically attacked (beaten over the back and head) by the teacher for daring to ask for anything. I am not sure, but it may have been also because I spoke before the prayer for the meal - something we didn't do at home and I was unfamiliar with. After said teacher told my mother I was psychotic, I had a long session with a kiddie shrink who concluded the teacher was the psycho. We went to a different school, where they said I'd do better in Kindergarten.

Which I did. Fortunately, I did learn quickly to shut up and be still during prayer. So no more trips to the kiddie shrinks.

Dang, if that had happened in a legal environment we have today, we'd of gotten a multi-million dollar settlement in court for abuse, and I probably would have turned into a real psycho-delinquent...

BTW, I never did develop a phobia of cheeseburgers. Just Nursery School teachers.

Home discipline was having to pick a switch from the forsythia hedge and take a quick but meaningful leg/thigh lashing. That sure happened as infrequently as I could manage.

As tempted as I am to use a 2 x 4 to apply the same kind of discipline to the teen age boys under my current supervision, I've found the only legal way I can get their attention these days is to remind them I can have them evicted in 14 days or less. That and non-monetary carrots (helpful guidance and the occassional stint as chauffeur) seems to work towards some level of cooperation.

But I long for the lost legal ability to administer a swift kick to the butt.

There is currently proposal... (Below threshold)

There is currently proposals before some florida school boards to deny problem students access to services if the families refuse to medicate the children. Something tells me that the taping of this might end up in one of those hearing.

I think we can all agree kids are over medicated. Some kids need the meds to function. Most kids are given them because doctors are pill happy with kids these days and parents are too busy trying to get back to their day job to wonder about alternatives to medications that alter the chemical balance of a child's brain.

Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised to see these tapes shown in defense of the schools trying to force parents to medicate their kids or keep them at home.

What no one seems to have a... (Below threshold)
Mike:

What no one seems to have addressed occurs in the classroom video. While trying to control the child the teachers are informed that the mother can not come in until 3:15PM because she gets off of work at 3. That is unacceptable in this situation. I realize that the mom may be placed in a bad spot at work, but what signal does this send to the school and the kid when the parent can't be bothered. The parent(s) should have been handcuffed right after the girl was. This girl has been raised with no respect for any authority figure other than the police.

And wavemaker I think that is where you can tell this girl does not have the same condition that your boy does. The moment she sees the police she sits down at the table and becomes silent and still. She now knows she has gone too far.

Back to my point about the parents or parent. I know while I was in school, the mere threat of calling my parents if I acted up or got in trouble was enough to scare me straight. I never went to a school with corporal punishment, but my parents would dole it out when necessary and would not do it to harm me, more to teach me a lesson. And it worked. I will do the same with my kids when they step out of line. The school also seems totally inept in handling this situation, but I could write forever about that, maybe tomorrow. Tonight, I just wonder why her parents have their heads up their asses.

I'm sorry but those cops ha... (Below threshold)
Rob:

I'm sorry but those cops had no right to put the cuffs on that little girl. When the girl saw the cops she was sitting calmly in the chair.

That experience will probably hurt her more than help her.

She is not a bad little girl. She obviously has a problem. My sister is a school teacher that works with kids with issues. I sat in on her class, and she had a kid that acted just like that. The kid probably missed a dose of her meds to calm her down.

Either let the school disci... (Below threshold)

Either let the school discipline the kid, or let them kick her out. There are kids there who are able to behave, and the school shouldn't be wasting its time on brats like this. Handcuffing was over the top... they could have easily just each grabbed one of her arms.

Is it just me or does it se... (Below threshold)

Is it just me or does it seem to anybody else like the government of Florida is just out of control? Black is the new pink and Florida is the new California.

Rob and others with similar... (Below threshold)
-S-:

Rob and others with similar comments about the handcuffing of the child when she was found to be "sitting calmly in her seat" (and yet then handcuffed)...

Her earlier and highly observed behavior was very bad, very violent. Once observed as being capable of such an outburst, there's a liklihood that it will happen again (d'oh). Thus, given the violence involved, restraining anyone -- child or adult -- is reasonable to both prevent further harms to herself and/or to others.

In other words, whether found calm or not, it's the potential that's already been established by people displaying that level of violence: that they can and have and are likely to do so again and for similar unprovoked reasons.

Thus, restraining them inorder to, particualrly, move them somewhere else (more restrictive, less vulnerable to their outbursts, like jail or some equally closed/cloistered area) is sensible for all concerned, and particularly the person themself.

The level of violence that the child enacted was extraordinary, for whatever reason. It's important not to underestimate that, the extreme nature of her behavior and under what circumstances -- in other words, her violent response in no way is related to any harms or threats or circumstances in which she was prior to the outburst (thus, I describe her outburst as being "extraordinary" and "extreme" -- it bears no correlation to any cause or reason other than reflects her inner disorganization of whatever motivation or kind).

I can't begin to comment on WHY the child acted this way (no one can unless they know a great deal about her and her environment), but, for anyone just walking into a situation like that, you can't project what YOUR children do or would or will do in similar circumstances (most will not be engaging in outbursts even approaching the severity that this child displayed), what YOU would do as parent with your own children even if they'd behaved like that, you just have to do what is best at that moment for the child, others present and yourself: prevent further harms to any and all and yourself.

So, restraining the child, under these circumstances, is and was appropriate. She may have been found "sitting calmly in her seat" when the police entered the room, but there is no likely way to predict what she would do when if the police left or were not present -- meaning, she's displayed cause to be restrained and it was the responsible thing to do to ensure the safety of all concerned.

I hope that this child gets the counselling she so obviously requires (d'oh) and any competent counselling will also include her parents.

Sometimes people have psychiatric problems, sometimes physiological ones, sometimes behavioral, but without evaluating her for whatever her situation is, you can't speculate beyond the immediate circumstances.

I've seen people with schizophrenia go from "sitting quietly in their seat" in even highly sophisticated circumstances to suddenly and without provocation go completely raving mad, inflict potentially fatal harms upon others. And then quickly return to the "sitting quietly in their seat" afterward, with no explanation as to why, or willingness to explain why.

There really ARE people with that level of profound problem and just because a person is a child does not make the problem excusable. I think the child, in this situation, is indicating that she has profound disturbance and needs medical care.

And, the police handled the... (Below threshold)
-S-:

And, the police handled the situation competently as to what's observable on that tape.

Sorry, except for that taun... (Below threshold)
-S-:

Sorry, except for that taunting statement, which is completely inexcusable. Chalk that up to immaturity by whoever said it but the actions are what are key here and their actions are sensible and required.

Mike said: "And wa... (Below threshold)

Mike said:

"And wavemaker I think that is where you can tell this girl does not have the same condition that your boy does. The moment she sees the police she sits down at the table and becomes silent and still. She now knows she has gone too far."

Good observation, Mike -- you may be right. But I have had the police visit my home here, as a result of my son calling 911 in one of his states. As soon as he saw the uniformed guys enter his house, he fell silent (not in control, just silent) and placid.

I must say that, reviewing the descriptions of how the school personnel treated the situation, they did a good job -- if the teachers in my public schools had learned the techniques used by this teacher, my son may not have to be attending a special ed school for autistic kids.


I think Hector is right on ... (Below threshold)
Cancon:

I think Hector is right on the mark, the police were called in when they shouldn't have been because teachers are now afraid they'll get sued if they lay one finger on any child, whether to restrain them or even comfort an upset child, this way the cops will get sued instead....

on the other hand, I think times have changed

I don't remember any kids going kamikazi when I was in the early grades of school, there is a difference between tantrum and kamikazi and I hear this kid went kamikazi, tearing the classroom apart, hitting the teacher, which may be symptomatic of some deeper issues (abuse? neglect?)

but my neice went to a private school for her early grades and there was this one sad pathetic kid, from wealthy parents, who was a disaster, he threatened to kill my neice, he wasn't tiolet trained at age 4, he had tantrums almost every day, he threatened most of the girls and did hit them on occasion, they finally kicked him out of the school - which is a luxury of a private school, you can get rid of troublemakers, the next serial killer lives.....

now given the girl was calm when they arrived, were handcuffs necessary but I agree with another poster, the remark from the police officer suggests that perhaps the mother had warned the daughter that if she misbehaved again she would tell the police to handcuff her, and perhaps the mother had told the police to do so....

what do you want to bet this is the case but that won't stop momma from suing the police because most people are appalled and she can get some bucks out of it - how about the police insurers agree to a settlement provided the money goes into counselling the parents and the kid....

the more interesting question is this, will this kid throw another tantrum in school again or was she sufficently terrified, but if the parents sue the police and she comprehends that, I suspect that will negate any lesson learned....too bad perhaps?

My older sister teaches 3rd... (Below threshold)
GR:

My older sister teaches 3rd grade in Newark, NJ, and some children are truly out of control. They have never been properly disciplined growing up, and more and more parents expect a school...to teach their children proper standards of behavior, respect etc...

The problem with that child started at home, and it's not about medicating these children. Ritalin is waaaaay over-prescribed because people are too lazy to RAISE their children properly.

Kids eat sugared cereal, add more sugar to it, drink a coke, and then come to class. Of COURSE they can't sit still or pay attention, but that's not ADD, that an improper DIET...

Medicating children is a one size fits all solution (that lines the pockets of big pharma.) And is RARELY needed....and the future potentially psychotic mental effects of being medicated from the age of five haven't BEGUN to be explored...

What the heck is going on? ... (Below threshold)
What the Heck:

What the heck is going on? I have ridden on planes with unruly children. I see them in supermarkets and toy stores, in restaurants and at churches. Usually they are caucasian children and the parents are there. I dont notice anyone calling the police on them and trust me some of them needed it. I DONT CARE what kind of parent a child has who is five years old, I DO NOT ever want to see five year olds in handcuffs. If the child is that unruly call an ambulance and have the child sedated and committed for evaluation. Call child protective services and file a complaint that the child is at risk. NOTHING in that video makes handcuffing that five year old acceptable rational behavior. Dont give me that you feel sorry for the teachers and police thing. I am sure that they have all had children who have misbehaved at one point or another and children DO misbehave. It would have NEVER dawned on them to cuff their own children or relatives children. There is not a teacher in that school who would allow it to happen to a child whom was a relative of theirs.
This was clearly a case of some adults with axes to grind trying to get even with the mother when all else has failed. You mean it didnt dawn on them to simply expel her and tell her mother to come and get her? And if the mother didnt come then calling the local authorities to get the mother? If you are parents YOU KNOW what kids are like from time to time. If you are not parents YOU KNOW in spite of all the beatings and discipline you received you misbehaved. Or else how could you say that if YOU acted a certain way your mother or father would have done this or that? You were NOT perfect when you were five and you are not perfect now. So are you saying that this child is somehow a worse individual than you yourself are? So then what do you deserve? The question is not whether or not the child needs discipline. The question is WHO disciplines and to WHAT extent. The only other place I would guess this would have been acceptable was in NAZI German. But In the land of the free and the home of the brave? Its downright sick. This was not a police matter. Why the police? It was used as a tactic to scare the little girl into behaving. And when she was sitting quietly why cuff her? Why not simply call child protective services then or an ambulance? Or the mother? It was to inflict a punishment because at that point there was no need to cuff her. It was downright sick. Say did they read her her rights?

Do so many here not underst... (Below threshold)
jumbo:

Do so many here not understand? The school was put in the ludicrous position of having "school security" officers handcuff a child doubtless because of PRIOR LITIGATION and FEAR OF DEVASTATING JUDGMENTS for disciplining children. They didn't dare lay a spanking hand on the spoiled hellion.

Something also tells me, in a school that has walkie-talkies and security officers, there's a written code of behavior and punishment, doubtless acknowledged, agreed to and signed by the parents, which clearly sets out the possibility of physical restraint by officers if the child is out of control and a parent does not immediately come and remove the child from the school. This almost certainly is a contract and waiver issue. So cut the crap about out-of-control-Florida and Angie's PETA-like "physical discipline is torture, and a failure of the parent" fluff.

Unbelievable! The police di... (Below threshold)
Fucking Liberals!:

Unbelievable! The police did no wrong. Obviously this "Brat" is a headcase that recieves absolutely no discipline at home. The mother should also be cuffed and charged with neglect. Yes, I believe raising a child without teaching "IT" how to act or behave is in fact neglect. Simplest solution is to expel the child and let Darwinism run it's course.

I'm sure that bleeding heart clueless liberals, like `What the Heck` as well as others will disagree with this. But they don't seem to realize that the views of living in their ideal "Utopia" just isn't feasible. Liberals are the most responsible party for the breakdown of morality.

No, I'm not a Republican, or a Democrat. I actually look at the issues, weigh the merits and vote accordingly. Unlike what you might be led to believe "I Care"

This child obviously doesn't!!!

I can't believe that you ar... (Below threshold)
Sarah:

I can't believe that you are all saying that what this child needs is to be hit by an adult. How is that going to teach her anything at all, other then it is OK for a 200 pound person to physically abuse her? Where is your compassion. Five year olds have tantrums. They should have helped her to find a quiet place to tantrum, and then let it go. It is good to know that apparently none of you EVER had a good tantrum when you were growing up, your parents must have been so proud.

mmm. definitely. the libera... (Below threshold)
erin:

mmm. definitely. the liberal conspiracy has ruined good, old-fashioned education in this country where we could beat the shit out of all those little snotrags who didn't know how to hop-to fast enough. man, if only we could bring back corporal punishment, everything would be better. it's amazing how much regular beatings improve a child's behavior... good, god-fearing children never ever misbehave, you see, because they know their parents will beat the crap out of them. must be nice...

Great thats it call me a li... (Below threshold)
What the Heck:

Great thats it call me a liberal without even knowing me. It still does not negate the fact that hog tying a Five Year Old over a Jelly Bean Game is WRONG. You know what I find telling is that you "Fucking Liberals" claim to care. About what? Ohhhhhh YOUR OWN OPINION. For the record I am not a liberal. I am not against discipline. I believe the punishment should fit the crime. I support the death penalty hey I would support it for those who havent even killed anybody a mere attempt to take anothers life is enough for me. But I DO NOT support a POLICE STATE and arresting five year olds for misbehaving in school is RIDICULOUS. I see that you are completely without sin Fucking Liberals and your choice of grammar is evident of that. You know I believe in biblical times they could cut your tongue out for such innappropriate language. Or maybe you too can be arrested... I find it hard to believe that you would even attempt to call this a liberal issue. Don't try to use the tactic that so many fake conservatives use to brand people they disagree with. I know the difference. Don't try to make this a Democrat or Republic issue. Or have you not noticed five year olds are not allowed to vote. This is cut and dry five year olds may require 1) time outs 2) no television 3) spankings 4) physical restraint. They do not require being bent over a table by TWO or THREE police officers and cuffed. If you can not see that there is more to this picture than meets the eye. A) If the police had been to the school before concerning the child why not EXPULSION? Or how bout this? How did she get to school that day? Was it on a bus? Does everyone hold the same opinion of this child that you do? I am sure she has come in contact with other people. Do you think that neighbors or church goers or her pediatrician see her as an obvious satan spawn requiring police arrests and restraint in the same manner as umm okay Scott Peterson or John Couey? She is still a FIVE YEAR OLD who basically needed at best a mother present and some intensive counseling and at worse a mother present, a spanking and some intensive counseling. NOT in my conservative thinking something as extreme as being cuffed and not read her rights. Which I did not notice on the tape and frankly before you cuff someone be it a toddler or kindergartener you should follow the letter of the law and read them their rights. But wouldnt it be ridiculous to read rights to a FIVE YEAR OLD?

So many simple-minded and u... (Below threshold)
erica:

So many simple-minded and uncaring judgments out there. It is possible to be caring and have the child's best interests at heart and still remain in authority. These pathetic teachers were none of the above. If there's backstory revealed in the cop's comments, there's also backstory revealed in the teacher's stupidity and utter inability to manage the kid's behavior. This didn't start here--as a previous thread stated, the kid knew who was in control, and it wasn't the hovering 200-pound white woman yapping at her. And you all are fortunate to have jobs in which you have the freedom to declare that you are leaving early because the school called. I mean, perhaps the mother was just blowing off her responsibilities, but perhaps she would have lost her (probably minimum-wage) job had she cut out. At least reserve the possibility of having some empathy. The authoritarian, come-down-on-them, show em who's boss mentality may instill civil order, but it certainly does not instill civility and respect for one another. The girl is 5. She has limited means to express her anger and limited means of getting herself under control. What she learned is that using her Voice will get her squashed by big white people with guns.

It is good to know that ... (Below threshold)
SPG:

It is good to know that apparently none of you EVER had a good tantrum when you were growing up, your parents must have been so proud.

I never, ever saw any kid act out like this one did when I was in grade school. (And yes, I went to public school. And it wasn't in the 40s either, but rather the late 70s.) If any kid had acted like this in my kindergarten, ripping things off the walls in a total rampage, they would have been dragged off to the principal's office by the teacher (with as much force as needed), and probably transferred into special ed, never to be seen by the rest of us again.

Tantrums are when you yell and stomp your feet and act petulant. This kid was screeching and committing outright violence.

Erin and Sarah have pretty ... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Erin and Sarah have pretty much displayed how our feel good, politically correct social/education workers have redefined the act of spanking of our children. To think that a good spanking could be termed physical abuse or that light forms of corporal punishment can be labeled beating the snot/shit out of our kids is ridiculous. I'm so sick of hearing about ADD and people trying to talk it out with bratty, spoiled kids. We have become a society where we are afraid to discipline our kids the way we were disciplined. THere is too much litigation and not enough personal responsibility.

In regards to this incident, I can understand why the police were called and why the handcuffs were placed on her. It is all in the name of liability and not wanting to get sued, which is obscene but necessary. A parent should have been there immediately, unfortunately the parent(s) seem to be part of the problem as well. The girl would have most likely reacted the same way when her mom and/or dad walked into that office (that is if this girl respects her parents), but since her mother couldn't be bothered until 3 o'clock, the cops had to take care of this the only way they know how.

Think how much time and ene... (Below threshold)
JBR:

Think how much time and energy was spent on one little girl. Her mother should be paying extra for her daughter's education. All the other students in that class had to wait in the hall. If my daughter were in that class I would be concerned about the amount of down time she was getting due to pitter-patting around with a disruptive child.

How many uneducated people ... (Below threshold)
Elaine:

How many uneducated people do we have in this world? Too many. You don't repay a 5-year old's bad behavior with spanking or corporal punishment. It doesn't work. All of those who think it does need to visit our Prisons and talk with the prisoners to see just how great their childhood's were. This child needed to be protected not arrested. She was obviously in distress but the distress I believe in reviewing the tapes was brought on by the teacher. If the teacher doesn't now how to control a 5-year old, then God help her! This teacher needs to go back to school and learn about new techniques. She obviously made the situation worse by her actions and non-actions. The proper actions would have been to isolate the child, call the parents, and call in trained medical staff....not turn a video camera and say "look at me, I did everything right and this child is just plain BAD!" which bless her soul she is not. This is behaviorism at its worst for both the adult and the child. The child had an excuss....she's 5 years old! What are the adult's excuses???? THEY'RE JUST PLAIN STUPID! We should arrest them for their stupidness!!

Although Kevin linked to tw... (Below threshold)

Although Kevin linked to two sptimes videos, he didn't link to the paper's article.

During an interview of the mother in her home, "her three children rambled through the apartment. The girl, the oldest child, rode a pink bicycle through the living room, one of the training wheels missing. Her brother got up on a table and swatted a light fixture, laughing." [emp ed.]

Despite the hype, I don't think the school or law enforcement should be blamed. The fault seems to be a mother who lets her children do whatever the heck they want, and then tries to blame somebody else.

The money quote from the article (http://tinyurl.com/bw795) may be: "They set my baby up."

In order to respond to comm... (Below threshold)
GBC:

In order to respond to comments by some people I know, does anyone know if the mother is gainfully employed, or is she on welfare? Also, does she live in public housing? My contention is that just because of this incident she does not have to fall in that group, but some I tale to do not believe me.

Absolutely astonishing that... (Below threshold)
Richard:

Absolutely astonishing that there are posters here that refuse to condone the school or the police for these actions. Regardless of the girls back ground I'm flabbergasted that the teachers felt this kind of action was needed and that 3 police officers went ahead and handcuffed her.

This a sad indication of the direction society is moving here in the US. As a New Zealander nearing the end of my tenure I can say it is with great relief that myself and family will shortly be returning. In 5 years here I've yet to have experienced a society that so malignantly denies responsibility for itself as the US. This episode is yet another symptom of the cancer that steadily grows in this country. When we came in 2000 we were anxious to see all our misconceptions about the US dispelled but alas, 5 years on we leave with misconceptions confirmed as hard truths. Good luck for the future, Lord knows you need it America !!!

Amazing how expert people a... (Below threshold)
melrox:

Amazing how expert people are who have never walked in the school's shoes, or raised children, or...imagine this....weren't there.

I wasn't there. I haven't raised a child. But I am a public school teacher - oh, and not a democrat. This child is acting out in an inappropriate manner. Obviously, she has no idea how to deal healthily with her anger. And here she is in school.

And since it is a public school, everyone's hands are tied by the PC police. So, no, they can't do much with a child who is not ready for school, except refer to the parents...which apparently was done.

In this case, from what the officer said, this is nothing new for the child. And obviously, the Mother is aware of her behavior, AND of the consequences should the child do it again.

So, for a moment, let's quit playing the blame game, get out of the judgement seat, and look at it for what it is. A child out of control, in a public institution that MUST follow the rules, with no legal means to handle her, being handled by a police officer that obviously knows the child, the Mother, and has dealt with this before. The only reason everyone's panties are in a wad is because it is on video tape.

If you must sit in the judgement seat, then observe the child. Children learn what they live, and here's what she's learned to do when she is angry. The school is not the home, nor can it BE the home, mother, or whatever is lacking in the child's life. Obviously the school contacted the parent...and here we have a man who knows the child and is at least one person following through with some consistency in her life. Maybe this man is the only father figure this girl has. Maybe the Mother even called this man. For whatever reason, the chld has learned an innapropriate response. She was warned of the consequences, and now, she is reaping what she has sowed.

It's called 'real life'.

This isn't "real life" , th... (Below threshold)
Richard:

This isn't "real life" , this is "American life" 2 entirely seperate concepts. Only here would you find a member of the education sytem that feels 3 police officers HANDCUFFING a 5 yr old child appropriate. Like I said America , best of luck, with people like this responsible for your children your going to need it !!!

I think they did everything... (Below threshold)
An Okie:

I think they did everything CORRECTLY...if the girls mother was to busy to come and control her child then they had to call someone to do it, they could have controled her themselves and then they would have been accused of child abuse.

MOM IS THE REASON THE CHILD IS THIS WAY IN THE FIRST PLACE - TO BUSY TO DISIPLINE YOUR CHILD!

Real life is reaping what y... (Below threshold)
melrox:

Real life is reaping what you sow. In this particular part of America, sir, this particular child was apparently told she would get handcuffed by this particular man, who then followed through. This is her life. Her real life.

The problem with America is that personal responsibility and being held personally accountable is no longer PC...and the real abomination is PC rules. Everyone blames someone or something else. I agree with you sir. You made your point. I was not arguing with you. Neither was I referring to you.

you cannot let the child "d... (Below threshold)
Joe:

you cannot let the child "de-escalate", this places the power to control the situation in the hcild's hands. The administrators need to display their power and forcibly display it if needed. The child was likely not being punished appropriately at home and the state had to step it.

this kid needs a spanking! ... (Below threshold)
Jenni:

this kid needs a spanking! with a belt! worked for me, so why not it work for her?

Richard, you said initially... (Below threshold)

Richard, you said initially:

"Absolutely astonishing that there are posters here that refuse to condone the school or the police for these actions. Regardless of the girls back ground I'm flabbergasted that the teachers felt this kind of action was needed and that 3 police officers went ahead and handcuffed her."

Obviously, you meant "refuse to criticize" or "condone," not "refuse to condone."

But since we are in such dire need of assistance in this matter, how does a public school teacher in New Zealad handle a child in the circumstance. Specifically what was it that the teacher did wrong in dealing with this girl?


Several Points Of View... (Below threshold)
Ministeve2003:

Several Points Of View

Generally Kids Who Act up at this age (in a Violent Manner around Adults), Usually don't have a father in the house, More Likely than not, The Mother Doesn't Watch the Child, and Thirdly The Mother Usually Beats the Child When She See's Something She Doesn't like whether the child is at fault or not; causing the child to have a hard time understanding the right and wrong way to act when in a confrontation.

I believe a child should be told that they are going to be Spanked if they don't quit being bad, I believe that you must never Bluff a child. If they Do not Stop, and you do not act on it. Then they will never believe that a punishment is ever going to happen. And then they will act however they want.

I don't believe all Adults about the Behavior of Children.

Now, a marble isn't really anything big to get mad about, but Theft is...

From an experience I had when I was a child I will never take a teachers word as the Absolute truth... Here is what happens. It’s the 2nd Grade, Marble Season, I was playing marbles with another kid, and I won. The kid took both marbles, and pretended to throw them down across the playground, at this point I did what a small child is supposed to do... I told the Teacher. the teacher tells the kid that he has to look all over the playground for the marble, that’s when he pulls it out of his pocket, showing that he stole it... at this point the teacher tells him to hand it over, (here I am dumb thinking that she intends to give it back to me) then she says that she is going to keep it and put it in her Jar to give out to the good kid of the week... (WHAT!) So he steals it from me, then she steals it from me... I argue that its mine and she should give it back... she says no. and get back in line....
Walking back I shout You F*CKING B*TCH... at this point she asks me what I said, so I repeat it... word for word... So I go to the principal’s office... The principal asks me what I said... So I repeat it ... Word for word... Then my parents come to get me (I'm being suspended for the Theft of my marble) apparently the Teacher and the Principal lied... they said that I said "I'm gonna kick your a**" so they take that as a threat and Suspend me... So here is honest proof that a child who’s mad about The Theft of his Property, Who Did the Right Thing by reporting the Theft, Got Screwed by a Lying Teacher and A Lying Principal. Don’t always believe the adults Folks.

As a teacher, I'm intereste... (Below threshold)
Rosie:

As a teacher, I'm interested to know how all these people who suggest "putting her in a room by herself" plan on getting her into the room. Obviously, the teachers are not allowed to lay a hand on the child ----- due to ridiculous and inadequate educational statutes. Do you think she's going to go to that room of her own free will?

Wave, Thank you for pointin... (Below threshold)
Richard:

Wave, Thank you for pointing out my grammatical error.

What really chills me to the bone is that you and millions of others honestly see no wrong in the image portrayed here. A 5 year old, thats FIVE years old , not 15, is handcuffed by 3 police officers, are you so emotionally numb that you honestly feel that the correct course was followed here for a , let me repeat this again "FIVE" year old having a tantrum.

Armed police officers, restraining this 5 yr old by the hands and feet and you ask what exactly did the teacher do wrong !! I guess if you can't see it then you are beyond help.

A good spanking never kille... (Below threshold)
Walking Dead:

A good spanking never killed any child. This child needed it. The problem in our society is that beating a child abusively is always equated with spanking a child and they are two different things. The other problem with our society is that no one is responsible for anything they do, and as long as we hold to this mental attitude, the breakdown of our society will get progressively worse (can anyone say Roman Empire? - once a great world power as well).

I would like to know what started this child's tantrum and if she is allowed to act like that at home. If her mother allows her to show disrespect in the home (and I would bet a week's wages there is no father in the house), then why would anyone expect this child to show respect when outside of the home?

Seeing this behavior doesn't surprise me. I actually expect it to get much worse since parents aren't allowed to use any type of physical discipline and soon any type of discipline at all. It amazes me that the folks championing against discipline and who have Master's degrees and PhDs and who come from and era when spanking was accepted turn around and tell today's parent that it is wrong to physically discipline their children, but then refuse any repsonsibility when these undisciplined children act like animals. Why can't these Master degreed and PhDs use their so-called superior knowledge to see the correlation between discipline and respect = good behavior and good future as opposed to no discipline and disrespect = violent, disruptive behavior and a non-productive future?

Richard,Of course ... (Below threshold)
melrox:

Richard,

Of course we see what's wrong here. No one feels a child should be handcuffed. No one feels a child should come into school and throw the kind of tantrum she did. No one feels the child should have a mother that can't or won't control her children. No one feels we should have a public school system that is so hamstrung by PC policy it cannot lay ANY kind of hands on a child...not even restraining ones....without a threat of lawsuit. No one thinks ANY of this is how it SHOULD be. It all sucks.

Feel better now?

The thing is, it is WHAT IS for this situation. For good or bad, that is WHAT HAPPENED. The only saving grace here is there was at least one adult in this child's life who was bigger than she; the guy that said he was going to handcuff her, and then did. And the ONLY reason this is positive is this poor kid has NO ONE in her life BIGGER than her tantrums. She gets away with this behavior. And no, the schools cannot do what is needed. THAT is reality!

I'm still waiting for you to tell us what New Zealand would do. Seriously.

In fact, enlighten me on what you had heard about the US that makes it so bad. I'm truly curious. As a US citizen, I have no other perspective. I do, however, have serious problems with the prevailing society in the public institutions. But as a working member of that institution, I know that I have NO power to change it for the simple matter that it IS a public/government institution.

the handcuffs were for ever... (Below threshold)
shark:

the handcuffs were for everyones protection, the girls included. You can't just put her alone in a room, how insane is that!??! A kid going nuts, and you leave her alone in a room w/o supervision? And the cops couldn't control her, sure the chances of something happening are remote but then again do you want to be the one to explain to the officer that his eye was clawed out by an out of control child accidentally and he shouldn't feel so bad about it?

Richard, come down from you... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Richard, come down from your supposed high and mighty perch, you egotistical twit. All you have done is derided this country, explained how bad this all is and how wrong it is, but have refused to impart on us any sort of New Zealand wisdom in how to handle this matter.

And people, can we stop calling this a tantrum. Have you seen the videos, this was no tantrum. This girl was being destructive and seemingly on the edge of violence. We haven't seen everything, but we also don't know everything that has led to the handcuffing. Obviously, this girl has seen and been spoken to by this police officer before. That is why he says to her I'm the one who told your mom I'd put handcuffs on you. Like Ministeve said (before his painfully off-topic story about his own childhood) you can't bluff a child, that is why the cop had to use the handcuffs this time. Hopefully this will teach her a valuable lesson. One she is not learning at home.

I know this situation could have been handled differently, but until we can learn from our superiors of New Zealand, I guess will just keep repeating this.

2 Things.1. It seem... (Below threshold)
Bill:

2 Things.
1. It seems that most people misheard the cop who spoke to the girl. Most people seem to think he said "Do you remember me? I'm the one who told your mom I'd put handcuffs on you."
When he actually said "Do you remember me? I'm the one you told your mom put handcuffs on you."

2. I think the cuffs were over the top and the cops should have handled it differently. However, the entire scene points to a much larger problem that we have in our schools right now. This is how children behave when they know that there is no recourse for their actions. As long as educators have no real way to discipline students events such as this will only become more prevelant. I am disgusted that people are making this BRAT out to be a victim because she's not. In the end all I can say is that the girl in the video is very lucky that she is not my daughter.

It's amazing how many peopl... (Below threshold)
glad:

It's amazing how many people commenting are teachers and also some of them are psychopaths masquarading amongst you. I am suprised the cops just didn't shoot the kid as that what some would like to have seen, hell get the kids address and you can have a lynching party as she deserved it. As for a 5 year old taking out a big burly cops eye, what planet are some of you on.

No matter how you want to look at it it's 3 cops thats right 3 cops holding down a 5 year old Black GIRL and handcuffing her along with leg restraints apparently. Now you may not know this but it's made worldwide news as I saw it in the UK. Crime must be pretty low in that part of town if the cops have time to handcuff a 5 year old girl. I shouldn't be suprised as you execute your kids there too, so whats new.

child abuse isnt quite the ... (Below threshold)

child abuse isnt quite the term for this Bullshit - id say its more like abusive behavior from a child. that little girl needs some jail time (and give that teacher an award, for putting up with all that)

shutup richard - i will com... (Below threshold)
wendog:

shutup richard - i will complain when they put you (FIVE year old) in handcuffs...happy?

"As a teacher, I'm interest... (Below threshold)

"As a teacher, I'm interested to know how all these people who suggest "putting her in a room by herself" plan on getting her into the room. Obviously, the teachers are not allowed to lay a hand on the child ----- due to ridiculous and inadequate educational statutes. Do you think she's going to go to that room of her own free will?"

The idea that it would have been abusive for a teacher to take hold of the girl when she was being violent and hold her until she stopped but that it's not abusive to treat a five year old like an adult criminal seems really odd. If indeed that is the case, then it reinforces what I said earlier - there are more signs everyday that something is rotten in the state of Florida. Problem after ridiculous problem seems to be coming from that state. The problem is systemic. It's not that the particular officer or particular teacher weren't doing what they were supposed to, it's that the expectations of all their positions led to such an absurdity. Certainly the parents had a role, but out of control courts and legislature created the legal situation where the teachers couldn't reasonably react to a bad situation without it escalating to that point.

I first would like to start... (Below threshold)
April Wright:

I first would like to start off as saying that the child was not having a tantrum she need to be left alone and it was plan to SEE that the principal was aggeratation the child SHE made the situation worst. The principal should be fired, cause she put on a good performance, little did she know that the tape that was supppose to help her, hurt her in the end. The principal needs to be sued, the cops need to be fired and sued and the school board needs to be sued and their policies need to change on handling a FIVE YEAR OLD. AND AS FOR THE COPS I WONDER IF THEY WOULD OF LIKED THEIR CHILD TO BE HANDLED IN THAT WAY.I know in my heart that if that was a white child the police would of never been there.And this is not a white black thing and I am not racist but why was all three officers white , and why did three officers needed to be there, and why did all three officers put their hands on her one would have been enough come on now .Im outraged at the cops and I wish to god that was my child cause trust and believe my picture would have been up there right along with my childs and it wouldnt have been pretty.And I really hope this childs mother pulled her out of this school. Oh how lucky they should feel that it wasnt one of my children. And I hope her mom gets everything she deserves and I really hope people think about there actions before they move and act. I have seen the video several time and that child wasnt doing anything a normal FIVE YEAR OLD does but talking back. That principal needs to be put in handcuffs, and think about this if her child was doing what she was doing would she accept that treatment for her child........THINK BEFORE YOU ACT AND REALIZE THAT TIMES HAVE CHANGE, AND IF YOU DONT CHANGE WITH IT, YOU WILL BE IN A WORLD OF TROUBLE, like you are NOW................

and to shark you are so stu... (Below threshold)
April wright:

and to shark you are so stupid cause that child was not going nuts look at the video you moron and please learn the difference between nuts and being aggervated. That principal had that video tape on and running and she created that whole episode and played it to be just what she wanted it to be.She knew exactly what that child was going to do and she MADE,YOU HEARD MADE IT HAPPEN .....

I think that 5-year old rea... (Below threshold)
Sun yat-sen:

I think that 5-year old really lost her temper and acted like a psycho path. I'm sick and tired of hearing liberal phonies whine and gripe about how the principle and teachers weren't suportive, how we're suppose to understand the family back-ground, and how "mean" the police officers were while they handcuffed the girl. Believe it or not, the 5 year-old was given lots of chance to listen to the teacher to stop her tantrum and clean up her mess. But no, miss crybaby had to punch her teacher and also attempted to hit the principle on several occassion. Too bad the good ol' paddle wasn't used to shut that 5 year-old up. If I were the teacher, I would have strapped the girl to a chair and duct tape her mouth. I'm not an old fart who grew up in the 40s. I'm a young male, 23 years old, and don't like the "lax" education system the USA has. I'm originally from Taiwan, and if you misbehave...even talk back to the teacher, you get spanked...period. I'm just appalled at how young students can behave in the US towards their elders. There's just too much lawsuits against teachers and school administration these days in the US. This is what's intimidating teachers and principles from rightfully punishing students who misbehave...and that 5 year-old is a classic example of a young psychopath who needed to be restrained by a police.

That child needed more than... (Below threshold)
TSB:

That child needed more than handcuffed! This morning I heard on the Today show that the mother of the child said her child was videotaped as some sort of setup. Give me a break woman!!! Nobody FORCED that child to hit another person or throw things! When are parents going to take responsibility for their child's actions instead of blaming the rest of the world?! That mother should have supported what those officers did and reinforced it to her child instead of making like it's some sort of setup or racial thing!

Someone asked about schools being gunshy of lawsuits... DAMN RIGHT! This mother is the REASON schools have to make videotapes of these kinds on incidents to protect their own ass!

If the police have had to deal with previous incidents involving this child or her parents' (as indicated in a prior thread), then good for them for following through with taking the steps they warned they would!

In my day, I would have gotten a spanking at school, AND when I got home!!

My hat's off to those officers and the school employees!!!!!!

WHAT DO YOU PEOPLE NOT UNDE... (Below threshold)
Samantha:

WHAT DO YOU PEOPLE NOT UNDERSTAND -- SHE IS A FIVE-YEAR OLD GIRL.

Children are going to have tantrums! PERIOD!
You may not hear about them to that extent... but they do happen. Do any of you people have darling children?

Anyways, did any of you hear the videotaper person saying 'Can we get more video'? That is totally fucked up. FUCKED TO THE MAX! This outrages me to think that this is happening in society.

The school had no right to do anything... call the parents and let them deal with it. The school employees seemed to try to encourage her. The girl was standing on the table and wanted to get down... so what did the teacher do? Put her down... When it was something okay that she was doing, they would help her. But they kept talking to her to egg her on.

I can't think straight after I have seen this footage.

I'm sick of what this world is coming to. People are bastards.

The mother planned the whol... (Below threshold)
Faceit:

The mother planned the whole thing to cash in on a lawsuit. Her ducks were already lined up and the event went off just as predicted, unless the little girl got into the mom's stash of crack.
IMHO

April Wright:You a... (Below threshold)
Mike:

April Wright:

You are the one who is acting racist in your reaction to this incident!! Got that? As well as others who see this as white cops doing something outrageous to a black girl. You april are the one bringing race into the equation.

Also, April, it is your reaction that is causing our schools to react the way they did in this incident. Your reaction is to sue and that the mom should get everything that is coming to her, obviously you mean money. That is absurd. The mom should be reprimanded as well as the child. The mom is being more negligent with her children than the cops or the teachers here. The fact is for you there would not have been any satisfactory handling of this situation. Whatever happened you would have cried SUE THE SCHOOLS AND THE POLICE, instead of focusing on the real problem which would be this child's upbringing.

What you are seeing here is a result of people's lack of personal responsibility and sue everyone for your misfortunes mentality. This mother deserves nothing! She should be scorned by her community for allowing her children to act this way.

samantha I don't think you ... (Below threshold)
Mike:

samantha I don't think you were thinking straight while watching the footage!

The girl was standing on the table and wanted to get down... so what did the teacher do? Put her down... When it was something okay that she was doing, they would help her.

What?? That's not what I saw, I saw a kid climbing up on the table and being taken down multiple times by the teacher. This was no tantrum, this is a problem child! She is taking away time from every other student in that school. Obviously she can not be controlled by this school and needs special care (more likely a good spanking and some discipline in her life).

The school had no right to do anything... call the parents and let them deal with it.

Did you watch and listen to all of the videotape? They did call the mother, but she couldn't be bothered to come until 3 PM. I'm not sure what time this little terror started her rampage, but it's obvious that the mom couldn't come right away. Interesting too that you think the school had no right to do anything, considering that is obviously what the school thinks too. They didn't do anything, they let the cops take care of it.

the mom is probably like 15... (Below threshold)
wendog:

the mom is probably like 15 years old, i mean, any child behaving like that never ever got disciplined. what the hell are people (APRIL WRIGHT) talking about??? boo hoo, that poor kid...at the age of 5 she knows how to pull off some very convincing crocodile tears, and her mommy wants some media publicity to make cash, to top out that crack bag (NEW DEVELOPMENT - was that kid tested for drugs??)

PS - April are you a teacher? What district, im never ever letting my kid go near you...

... (Below threshold)
Sally:

anyone have a link to the w... (Below threshold)
ministeve2003:

anyone have a link to the whole video?

<a href="http://www.sptimes... (Below threshold)
wendog:

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/04/22/Southpinellas/Video_shows_police_ha.shtml

the links for the video are right under the headline...

This incident is just more ... (Below threshold)
Christine:

This incident is just more proof of the alarming increase in the number of irresponsible parents who probably should have given more thought to having a child in the first place. The 5 year old girl's mother apparently expects the daughter's teachers and school administrators to step in and take over parenting duties, but only on the mother's terms.

Instead of criticizing or p... (Below threshold)
Christine:

Instead of criticizing or punishing the school, the girl's mother should be ordered by the courts to take classes in parenting.

why doesn't everyone be a t... (Below threshold)
music teacher:

why doesn't everyone be a teacher for a year or two and see just how little you can do without being sued. Touch a child=big law suit, unless the parents think exactly the way you do, they still might sue to pay off that house and three cars.
When I was a first year teacher, I lost it and yelled at a student in ways I save for my dearest friends that need a good "wake up call". I immediately called "mom" and confessed to my mistake. This mother, through knowing me as a teacher and seeing how much time, effort and love I gave to my students replied with, "he can really push those buttons, huh... he probably deserved every word of it." I aslo went straight to my administrator to tell him the same thing I told 'mom". Two days later I confronted the student, apologizing with humility. He said, "you know what... I deserved it for the way I treated you."
This could have eneded with a law siut and the family of the student owning my single wide trailer and old truck, what else would they have got from my $23,000 salary?
Teachers are paid crap, so what, most of us love it despite this! We risk our whole life's assests everytime we interact with a student. I for one, refuse to bend to the intimidation of liability. I allow my music students to practice at lunch in the band room with no teacher present. I have been told numerous times this is a liability issue waiting to blow open. So if I follow suggested rules to avoid any type of law siut I must provide a less quality education. Isn't responsibility something we should teach. How many times have I said to a responsible student, "I wish I could let you do this, it would be a great learning experience, you are obviously mature enough to handle this, but because the way liabilty is these days, I can't allow you to do it."
Though sometimes, I do things I shouldn't because I care more about the student than my self (the fear of being sued). I see it as a "no brainer", but like so many other "fear" driven actions in America, most teachers actions are dictated by the possiblity of being sued.
To the idea of putting this child in a room byherself, silly rabbit, that's against the law! Consult a school district attorney to get up-to-date laws on what a teacher can and can't do, before saying what should have been done!

Where's Congress Why... (Below threshold)
Kevin:

Where's Congress
Why isn't Congress involved in these issues before they explode? After all, its federal monies that have caused all these inequities in the first place. What are they doing with our time and money? They steal our money and allow and fund local bureaucracies to run rampant like in this case. We have a dead beat Congress! Wake up Congress! Do something real for once. Parents and their children are under attack by criminal bureaucrats who are scheming against the American People and the World. In New Hampshire they are allowing Catholic Grandmothers to kidnap children using federal monies despite the fact that several states have declared Grandparent rights unconstitutional. Parents have no rights in the United States anymore. So what right does a parent have to discipline their child. Ask the U.S. Supreme Court and Dept. of Justice what happens to good parents who are even accused of disciplining their children. Call the U.S Supreme Court Justices and ask them what they did to my little girl on behalf of Catholics! And by the way people, child molestation by the police is normal in New Hampshire. They don't get prosecuted like black pop stars.

Nazi's I agree with ... (Below threshold)
Kevin:

Nazi's
I agree with the mother's attorney. The actions of the school officials and police are not only "absurd and excessive" they are conspiritorial in nature and are criminal violations under the U.S. Const., and laws. The minor child of tender years was in the care and custody of school officials at the time of the alleged acting out. If school officials can not handle this situation without involving the police they are not only incompetent, they are defrauding tax payers of monies and should not be allowed to be around children under any circumstances. What kind of person puts handcuffs on babies? These acts are criminal and the police and school officials should be prosecuted by the United States Department of justice for their criminal violations against a child.

New Hampshire is worse than... (Below threshold)
Kevin:

New Hampshire is worse than Fla.
If you think Fla is a bad place to live, you aint seen nothing yet. In New Hampshire Police routinely go into the public schools and harass children and their parents. The police engage children in communication and instruct them to tell them if their parents dicipline them in any manner. Then they exploit that information and destroy families. In my case,the police and the New Hampshire Supreme Court took my child from me for allegedly hitting her one time with a belt; which isn't true. Then they put her with a Grandmother State Corrections officer who lives with a convicted pedophie. The U.S. Supreme Court and the U.S. Dept. of Justice are allowing federal monies to be illegally used by state bureaucrats to wage war against non-catholic families.

After reading the earlier p... (Below threshold)
Christine:

After reading the earlier posts from April and Samantha, my blood began to simmer. Then I drove to the supermarket, where this idiot was parked next to a cart corral, and her 3 kids, all under the age of eight, were standing and swinging on the corral's railings. I called this to the attention of store security, lest they get sued, were one of those "precious little ones" to get injured.
I've had it up to here with parents who possess this "in-your-face" mentality, and think that everyone else is going to stand by and smile through gritted teeth, while their brats do just about whatever they please. They need to clue into the fact that the earth, sun, and moon do not revolve around them and theirs...

I think the cuffs were ... (Below threshold)
shark:

I think the cuffs were over the top and the cops should have handled it differently

What the hell is the cop supposed to do? They're trained to subdue violent adults. Should he put the kid in a choke hold? Taser her? pepper spray her? Bad as it looks, using the cuffs was actually the most effective and humane option he had available.

Christine-Don't le... (Below threshold)
shark:

Christine-

Don't let ignorant racists like April get you angry. Lord knows, with her attitude, her kids will be handcuffed also someday

Thanks, Shark! I was thinki... (Below threshold)
Christine:

Thanks, Shark! I was thinking the same thing. I hope that when the little Florida girl sees the video clips of herself, a few years from now, she will be sufficiently embarrassed to have learned a lesson or two.

to all so called educators<... (Below threshold)
Kevin:

to all so called educators
When teachers can not take responsibility for their own actions and call the police on a five year old child intrusted to their care and then blame the child then we need to stop paying them welfare! Considering the inadequate education and abuse (sexual and otherwise) children are receiving in the public schools I am baffled as to why we continue to fund public schools. Teachers these days seem more concerned with working with police and mental health (I refuse to call them professionals because they are not)special interest devils and destroying children than they are in educating them. These bureaucrats, individually and collectively are the ones that started the propaganda that parental discipline is a form of child abuse. This caused parents to fear having their children removed by state bureaucrats if they were turned in by school officials should the child complain. Children are being taught a false message based on this bureaucratic propaganda. Clearly, there is a consequence for their actions; the school official bureaucrats call the cops on five year olds and have them arrested. These criminal bureaucrats have been doing this to our children for years. People are only now waking up because this one was caught on tape and concerns a five year old girl. America, the land of the free. Ya right. And I'm a white male saying this! Wake up america. Stop letting these deadbeat bureaucrats from further trampling our rights and liberties under color National Security, et al. Call your Congress deadbeats and let your voices be heard.

This never would have happe... (Below threshold)
Peter:

This never would have happened to a 5 year old white girl. Could you ever imagine a little blond-haired, blue-eyed kind being mistreated like this in America? Never! It's inconceivable!

It's so stupid! I'm german ... (Below threshold)
timgermany:

It's so stupid! I'm german and my country made so much wrong 60!! years ago. But when I see this pictures from your country.... This is the USA who wants to bring democracy to my country before??? A gouverment that is bring the war all over the world. A gouverment that brings 5 years old children in gate?????? Stupid!!! I read the books of Michael Moore. I believe him. I have no problems with american people. But their gouverment and the executives... Bah!!! Its not good. Its wrong.... My god. My daughter never get this here in germany. Cause its a free country. Dont care she's black or white. You brougt the freedom and the rights for the people. We got it. But you? You take it away..... Tim

Anyone who even suggests th... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

Anyone who even suggests that this is the action of a group of civilised human beings is obviously a member of their peadofile ring. It's perverse digusting and pathetic. If the teachers involved are not sacked immediately and the police officers not jailed then I call on any decent american to destroy this excuse for a school. I hope this does not only require the attention of the black community...the white community should also show their disgrace. May lightening strike the three sick police bullies and may they burn eternally in hell....joined by the rest of you cowards who believe in the abuse of 5-year-olds. By the way....tell them to read Piaget....kids are not ready for maths at 5. Thick fuckers. If anybody would be good enough to give me a contact number for the school and the police station I would greatly appreciate it.

Most of these latest respon... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Most of these latest responses show how we have forgone with the concept of personal responsibilty. It's all blame the school, blame the cops, blame everyone else except the parent of this problem child. Schools can't do anything without fear of litigation, however now according to all of you saying this is outrageous, they can't call the cops either when the parent refuses to show up until later. For all you arguing about the cops, do you think the mom should be held somewhat responsible too?

This whole incident is a result of groupthink PC bullshit where we try and talk everything out. It doesn't work without some sort of punishment first.

And all you naysayers from other countries must have the most perfect lives where nothing goes wrong in your country. Worry about yourselves, we've been doing just fine over here for the past 229 years.

Mike you are a prick sir, i... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

Mike you are a prick sir, if you'd like to go search around the internet you'll find some more pics of kids being abused to add to your collection. Go rub youself off against the wall you are obviously an ugly fat child abuser. Your country doesn't need anyone else? are you sure? tell you what your country doesn't need, YOU and your paedofile friends and it's about time the rest of the world was rid of people like you too. Are you not bothered how this looks to the rest of us and what impression it gives of your country? I think (hope) that the majority of Americans do care and i hope they make sure justice is done for the sake of all mankind. By the way Mike....did I mention you were a sub-human paedofile who would be better off in some jungle sucking the cream out of monkey's cocks. (I can see you nodding your head from here)

Neil,I will only fee... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Neil,
I will only feed you this one time. Re-read my posts and now read yours. Who do you think has the better grasp of reality and the higher intelligence? (I can see you nodding your head from here)

There we go then You have j... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

There we go then You have just proven that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Define intelligence Mike; I don't need to say anymore because anyone who has studied the concept knows what I'm saying, you obviously won't because you've been studying pics of kiddies instead. Blame the parents if you like but if I'm not mistaken that is not a parent I see in cuffs in that video. All I see is cruelty and paedofilia and anyone who condones it deserves to rot in hell. By the way your country is only a feed-off from the UK which makes us just as bad unfortunately.

Anyway, there's my challenge...define intelligence and (here's a clue) compare it to the real natives of your country who by the way were doing great for thousands of years before we sent idiots like you there to spoil it.

Pretty judgmental bunch, ar... (Below threshold)
Starfish:

Pretty judgmental bunch, aren't we? On both sides of the issue.

But here are the things we don't know: we don't know if the child is "spoiled," or mentally ill, or physically ill.

We don't know if the mother did not pick her up at once because she was irresponsible, or because she is the sole support of her family and her job would be in jeopardy if she left.

We do not know what kind of discipline, if any, that the child receives at home.

We do not know definitively whether there was a previous episode with this child and the police or not.

We do not know whether or not the associate principal had an ulterior motive in taping this episode.

We do not know the cause of this tantrum, nor whether it was due to lax discipline at school or home, nor whether it was aggravated by school authorities for reasons of their own.

We do not know what was going on in the mind of this child, nor in the mind of her mother, nor in the mind of school authorities and the police.

We do not even seem to know what happened in the tapes; although I assume most of us have seen them, it would also seem that if one hundred of us saw the tapes, then we experienced one hundred different versions.

We don't know an awful lot, do we? And yet that doesn't prevent us from passing on holier than thou judgments, does it?

Ignorance in this case is not bliss; it is arrogance.


We do know that the child w... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

We do know that the child was only 5 years old and we ALL know that you shouldn't handcuff a 5 year old' I'm also a bit more informed than perhaps I'm impressing having studied Intelligence, child psychoogy, social psychology, cross cultural studies and cognitive psychology to name but a few and all at degree level. The studies all say that this was a stupid and cruel act with no benefit to the community, child or parent whatsoevever if fact just the opposite. There are a number of reasons why the child has acted up and carried on being aggressive and in fact I think you may find that the child actually calmed down when the police came because that's when she felt safe. So what do they do? hancuff the poor little thing. Shamefull, don't you have to know anything to be a teacher or police officer in that part of the USA?

The pursuit of truth or the... (Below threshold)
hmm?:

The pursuit of truth or the pursuit of knowledge, two very different things, Neil. So many are intelligently ignorant, wouldn't you agree. Not in your case. You are intelligent! Engage!

Ignorance seeks to justify seperation, while truth seeks to heal it. Why don't you work on that for a century or two?

Oh yea, all you "poor little girl" er's. Why aren't you standing up for the Iraqi children dying everyday, or the Sudanese children or... the list goes on? Why do you not cry for the thousands of birth defects in Iraq due to our military's depleated plutonium ammunition (Gulf War Syndrome for those PC'ers)?

It's so interesting, the # of interpretations of responsibility.

What if the kid hurt herself in this whole mess, fell off the table or cut her hand while smashing the candy dish? =School/teacher get sued. They weren't doing their job, right?

Kid doesn't get hurt, she is supervised at all times as required by law. =School/teacher get sued. They weren't doing their job, right?

Kid runs past another student while supervised (but not within reach) and stabs student with pencil in fit of rage. =School/teacher get sued. They weren't doing their job, right?

Someone please explain to me a legal, safe alternative to what happened. The rule is though: you must assume liability. No breaking the law. now....... go!

The child was in control. T... (Below threshold)
jJon:

The child was in control. The teachers were doing what they could. The police were neccessary because there were no in between options available to the school. The police may be required to cuff anyone they take into custody. I don't know.

I do not know why the child acted up in the first place. I do know know if the child is diciplined at home or not. Mayee the mother has not control. Maybe the mother has total control and beats the kid. I do not know.

I do know that I was beat far beyond decipline by a mother out of control. I acted out at school. I got paddled many times at school. The paddling was nothing compared to the abuse I got a home, so school padling did not no good. I did not get better until I got away from an abusive mother. A mother who was so proud of how well her children behaved. They behaved well becasue they were terrified.

Now for those who assume that I am totally against corporal punishment. No, I am not totally against it. For those who think I am claiming abuse when I was just being punished. I will tell you a little about my my abuse. I had my mothers ffingernail scratches on my neck from several times when she grabbed my by the throat and dug her nails in, I have been many times lead aroung the house by my hair while being screamed at and called ass ass ass..... I had a mother who did the best she was capable of. Her best was not good enough. She would loose control and beat on us until she wore out. She has broken many objects across my body. She let her boyfriend slap me around util I wa bloody, but he at least got on his knees in front of me and let me hit him back. He is the one who took the paddle from her at his parents house bacause he did not want them to see what she does. He only hit me that one day. He tought me to fight back. That fighting back is what lead to my taking the paddle away from my mother after she had hit my bare behind five times. That is what the school did, They never gave me more than five swats for any one incident. I considered that reasonable. I was in the 7th grade.

When I took the paddle away from my mother, I told her that I got what I deserved but any more was abuse. When she reached for the paddle I would knock her hands away with the other hand. To prevent me blocking her hands, she held my arm in her teeth. We danced around the room this way until she was getting worn out. I submitted then to let her hit me a couple more times to re-establish that she is a parent who has the right to punish her child. But my point was made. That day I was able to avert what would have been another long miserable night of yelling and beatings. I had taken the adult role for those few moments.

The point of the telling you all this is to show that it is wrong to assume the child is not spanked at home. An to point out that spanking is sometimes totally ineffective.

Oh I should tell you that my wife and I dissagree about how much the teachers should be allowed to do. She is totally against the teachers being able to hit a child because she was abused by a teacher. My wife was a very very very very shy child who never spoke in public. When called upon to address the class, she said nothing, for this she was spanked by the teacher. She still did not speak in class.

So I have reservations about how much I trust teachers to use good judgement. I do wish they could do more. I spanked my kids very very little. I may have spanked them three times each in their lives. They were not a discipline problem in school. They learned that there were consequences for their actions. They learned that there were limits to what is tollerated without beatings. They now both work and attend college.

Back the girl in the story. The girl was in control and she know it. I do wonder if the teachers and school administrators planned to video tape the event for their own deffense. I might do the same if I had a child that was disrupting class repeatedly and I was not allowed to touch the child.

If I was in that situation and allowed to do as I see fit, this is what I would have done. It is the same thing I did with my own children when they were very young. How I would handle the immediate situation has nothing at all to do with the cause of the behavior or anything that preceeded the event. I would first take the child out of the room. If it meant dragging, then dragging would happen. It is the childs choice to walk or be dragged. Usually that is all that is needed to wake a child up to the fact that the behavior will not be tollerated. If the child continued to be distructive and violent, I would sit down with the child in my lap. I would wrap my arms around the child and let the child wear herself out if she chose to do so. The behavior is stopped the child works out whatever is troubling her, and she learns that I am in control but I will not harm her. She would have the needed touch of another human. I do not think restraining the child as descibed would sold all her problems. It may not work for a very small number of chldren with particular mental disorders. For most children, it will solve the immediaate problem and likely never be needed again.

Repeatedly telling the child to do something and not backing it up with actions teaches the child that you are not in control and that what you say does not matter. The child figured out who mattered and who didn't. We need to allow the teachers to touch children. They need to maintain control. You can have a load and routy class room and still be in control. It is a matter of the children knowing what is tolerated in the given situation and knowing that you have the power the change the situation. I do wonder if the teachers and priciples do know better how to control children but found that the things they normally do were not effective for this child. Again, I do not know, but I suspect they choose this time to tape record the behavior while being so overly careful of what they said and did. This would allow them to show that the child was disruptive but not get them in trouble. They were, no doubt, aware they were being taped and wished to avoid even using a harsh tone of voice for fear of being accused of doing something wring. I find it had to believe they are that nice all the time when a child acts out at school. I think it likely they tried more stearn things long before resorting to taping and calling the police.

So. Don't beat the kid. Give teachers the tools they need to maintain control so they do not have to resort to calling the police.

In Reply To Peter:Yo... (Below threshold)
Kevin:

In Reply To Peter:
Your wrong about it being purely a racist issue.
Evil doers (the police) rape and murder white woman and children too. Why do you think so many children go missing in this country every year and they are never found? In response to this issue look how little time and money is spent. Here in the U.S. the people are so ignorant they gave up their liberty to corrupt police and other over paid bureaucrats. In New Hampshire the Catholic influenced police controlled courts kidnaped my five year old, blue eyed blonde and put her in the home with a convicted pedophile. But I'm a white male so no one gives a damn. God will punish the people of this nation for their deliberate indifferrence. Its the Peoples fault for not demanding Congress to wake and do its damn job.

the girl was going nuts. e... (Below threshold)
me:

the girl was going nuts. ergo, the arrest was absolutely necessary. i don't think i need to comment on way children of certain ethnic backgrounds are raised.

What a sick country America... (Below threshold)
yep yep:

What a sick country America is... areesting a kid in the age of 5...

wow, what do we feel great, look at us, we can arrest a 5 year old, i get more and more respect to people to destroy America the way it's now

FAO hmm...I think (hope) y... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

FAO hmm...I think (hope) you'll find that the police did break the law. A simple solution was to let the child have some time out to calm down and then explain what was bothering her. Not rocket science is it? I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that the child is generally disciplined too harshly leading to the fight or flight response we see in the video. That is a child that is scared. Bottom line is she was sitting calmly when the police lifted her and handcuffed her, please explain why that was neccessary for a 5 year old that was calm at that point? I wasn't going to mention Iraq etc by the way but since you did wasn't that a joint effort by mine and your glorious leaders too? are you telling me that what happened is ok simply because some kids get worse? Wise up and read up on some proper studies instead of quoting your nonsense out-of-date philosophical wisecracks. Fact...kids who are bullied often become bullies. comment on that for starters.

itismedavid said the right ... (Below threshold)
yoyo:

itismedavid said the right thing, that arrest was just a little too far. I mean come on she's five years old. I understand that she was ver outraged and just couldn't be handled. But as far as police being brought in? You don't know what that little girl goes through at home, it may mean a cry for help. Society is like locked her up, take her to jail. Now she is really going to be traumatized for life. She not going to trusr educators or law emforcement. She probably needs some counseling down the line.

Thank heavens for that yoyo... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

Thank heavens for that yoyo, a little bit of sense at last. Not a bit over the top though....WAY OVER THE TOP to the point where it was criminal. Society has to offer something better than that to a 5 year old kid for heavens sake.

Wow Neil, Who woul... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Wow Neil,

Who would think that a man so intelligent as yourself, with so many degrees, and the ego to let everyone else know how much more insight you have into these matters, would use the term:

"By the way Mike....did I mention you were a sub-human paedofile who would be better off in some jungle sucking the cream out of monkey's cocks."

I only have one degree, but am still not able to come up with such eloquent rebuttals as this one.

Your views (and useless degrees) are part of the problem and the reason behind a lack of discipline at home and schools.

My useless studies have obv... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

My useless studies have obviously enhanced my knowledge more than yours has. Keep rubbing.

I am the adoptive mom to tw... (Below threshold)
Look Deeper:

I am the adoptive mom to two children with FASD (Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder) and that child in the video tape could easily be one of my children. When a child is prenatally exposed to alcohol - even just one episode of binge drinking- the brain can be permanently damaged in the areas of impulse control, mood regulation, abstract thought and consequence learning, among others. Students with FASD are often unable to process multi-step auditory directions and they often struggle in math (which apparently was the subject that this child was involved with when her frustration caused her to have an outburst)- even if their IQ is in the normal or above average range.

Most children are never properly diagnosed because there is a lot of blame and shame associated with this diagnosis, but they receive labels like ADHD, ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder) and the newer DBSD (Disruptive Behavior Spectrum Disorder). FASD is more common than Down Syndrome, Spina Bifida and Muscular Dystrophy combined and yet doctors continue to advise pregnant women that moderate drinking won't hurt the baby and our society continues to blame children for behaviors that just might be beyond their control.

I saw a frustrated little girl in this video and professionals who were "shadowing" her like a basketball player on defense saying things like "that is not appropriate". This only escalated the unwanted behavior. The child then achieved the desired behavior...calm...and she was handcuffed at that point. Unwanted behavior was fueled and desired behavior was punished.

What I find even more disturbing is that educated and mature adults on this board are condemning a child for striking out in frustration and yet they are suggesting that the only way to deal with her behavior is by striking her.

An excellent post Look Deep... (Below threshold)
Neil shone:

An excellent post Look Deeper. You describe one of many possible explanations very well indeed. To treat the child in that way AFTER she is calm (and it shouldn't happen at any stage) actually serves to reinforce bad behaviour. An excellent point about the consequences of spanking as a punishment also. I just hope that the people who deal with this case have your knowledge.

I agree with some about the... (Below threshold)
Concerned person:

I agree with some about the spanking but not to abuse the child this whole incident started at home because when I was growing up my Mom only had to look at us and we knew,If we went to school and acted up we knew that we would get it so we didnt. The parents now days dont put that fear in these kids they are afraid because of the system is now designed to tell the kids if your not getting your way or you think your parents are abusing you can call the police or report them. That little girl knew she could do it thats why she did and she knows that no one can do anything to her cause obviously her parents dont.why would the police say to her you remember me that means there is something else going on he visited her before so it was the right thing for the staff at the school in taping this and calling her parent but her Mother would not leave work, I dont care where I work or who tells me I cant leave my Child comes first, this shows that there is no Love there something is missing. This little girl is smart , I keep hearing people say she must have add or adhd no she just have what you call trying to get her way this may work at home to act out and get her way but not everyone will put up with it. The parents are going to have problems but it couldnt be me I would have nip that in the bud at first sight. Good Luck to them.

I have been a 4th grade tea... (Below threshold)
Julianne:

I have been a 4th grade teacher in the inner city for 5 years now. Prior to that I was a substitute in the inner city for a year. While working as a sub, I was called to do a 2 month assignment for a kindergarten teacher. She had a student go into a rage simialr to this little girl, instead of calling police, they tried to talk him out of it and wait for mom to arrive (as many of you are suggesting should have been done) His behavior continued to escalate and he began punching the teacher (as this girl does the Asst. Principal) he ended up knocking her to the ground and tore her rotator cuff, she had to have surgery and was in a sling for almost 4 months and needed intensive therapy. When I began teaching her class I was told that this child would not be allowed back inthe school. After a 11 day expulsion (after all "he's only 5" you couldn't punish him too much) he returned. On his second day back he began throwing a tantrum. He grabbed a plastic bag and was holding it over his head saying he would kill himself with it. I tried to remove the bag and he became violent hitting and kicking me. While I was calling the office for help (on the wall phone) he lept off of a chair and landed on my back and began scratching me and twisting my arm screaming "I'll sned you to the hospital too" He was kicking and hurting me so much I ended up falling with him still on my back. My arm hit the edge of a wooden chair and instantly began to swell. I had to go to the hospital for x-rays but luckily it was not broken, it turned black and swelled like a baseball and I needed a sling for 2 weeks but I wasn't nearly as bad off as the first teacher. The police were not called by the school at first but I did file a police report, I did not request that charges be pressed, but after 2 such violent outbursts I was concerned that the next time his behavior wouold be directed at another student who could be seriously injured. Also, if no one ever involves the police then if something big happens people say "well, he doesn't have a history with the police, lets give him a warning" I wanted a record of his behavior so that if it escalated (like the 6 year old in Michigan about 6 years ago, he brought a gun to school and shot a little girl because she didn't like him) I could at least know I did my part.

So for those of you talking about this helpless little five year old, it is Bull. 5 year olds know right from wrong. Honestly how many of you allow your children to repeatedly punch and kick you as this child was doing to the Asst. Principal? I can't believe she had the restraint she did not to physically restrain the girl (which in cases such as this IS allowable in Ohio)

In defense of the school ad... (Below threshold)
honey:

In defense of the school administrators:

Any time a school employee places their hands on a child, whether passively or aggressively, the child's parent sues the school and presses charges against the employee. It's a historically proven fact. Now, have you never had to place your hands on your child when they were having a tantrum? No? Not ever? Then you need to take a more active role as a parent before your child winds up in prison.

In defense of the police:

Handcuffs is all the police know. If you don't want your child in handcuffs don't sue the schools. Don't scare your school administrators into calling the police. Keep police out of our schools by raising children who do not pose a threat to the safety of my children. And allow the administrators the powers of a parent. They spend more awake time with your children than you do, and you tie their hands behind their backs. What do you expect?

This kid wasn't shot with a... (Below threshold)
Doug:

This kid wasn't shot with a taser gun, hit with a billy club, or thrown to the floor. She was put in handcuffs, and hopefully learned a lesson!
Kids need to learn there are consequences for their actions. Too many kids these days don't learn this very important lesson, and this is why so many are growing out of control. Unfortunately, the mother getting pissed off at the school and cops only sends the wrong message to this kid. This kid will now think she can act any way she wants and mom will keep her out of trouble. If this was my kid, I would be very embarrassed. She would be apologizing to the principle and I would be thanking the cops for helping teach her a lesson. Anything short of this would be condoning her behavior.

Julianne...if you and your ... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

Julianne...if you and your colleague have suffered the injuries you say at the hands of a 5 year old then it's you two who have played the system for compensation. Honestly never heard so much rubbish in my life...I take it you both HAD to retire then? Also if there are police out there who only know handcuffs even when dealing with a 5 year old get rid of them fast. It's not the children who have produced the compensation culture that is rife in the USA it's adults so handcuff them and don't take the problems you have caused for yourselves out on a 5 year old girl. Honestly, it beggars belief it really does. The rest of the world are laughing at you and crying for your children and whilst they do you continue to tell other cultures how they should live. I feel for the decent citizens of the USA. Goodbye and good luck. I await news of the arrest of the officers responsible and the sacking of the useless teachers (who no doubt will want compensation for trauma) sheeeesh.

Neil,Please let us a... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Neil,
Please let us all know what enlightened country you are from? And what university or universities did you earn all those impressive degrees from as well? I'm just curious so we could all study your country and its policies so we can learn. Where is that perch from which you cast your aspersions at the US?

I want to make the observat... (Below threshold)
Anna:

I want to make the observation, since I have lived with it: mental illness does exist in children. I have also lived with the cruel condemnation from all the "perfect" parents, teachers, principals and observers who believed that my child's behaviors were due to my faulty parenting (or abuse) - condemnation (and suspicion) that, coupled with the exhaustion from dealing with my child's behaviors, just ground me down.

And since I grew up in a "perfect" family, and was myself a "perfect" child, I was only prepared to deal with another child like myself, my siblings and my friends. Traditional parenting did not work for my adopted child, who was first diagnosed with ADHD and later with child onset bipolar disorder and suspected fetal alcohol spectrum disorder. To those of you who think ADHD is not real, get out of the dark ages!

Some five year old children do not have the capacity to regulate themselves any better than a two year old. This is not always due to lack of discipline, on the one hand, or abuse, on the other. Sometimes this is due to mental illness, developmental disorders, Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder [brain damage], etc.

I cannot say whether this child's reactions were within the norm or not. Certainly I did not see the violent tantrumming or raging comparable to what I saw in my own child. I did see a child monopolizing the adult attention [ie being largely rewarded for her misbehavior] and I think it must have been very confusing/traumatic when the game suddenly changed. I saw a child who appeared unable to accurately perceive the intention of the adults (teacher and principal) and thought she was playing a game, until the police arrived. The jumping up on the table and being set down on the floor, reminded me of nothing so much as a baby repeatedly throwing its toys on the floor to be fetched by the parent - a game.

I agree with those who said that isolating the child in a room would be the preferred way of dealing with this behavior (withdrawing attention rather than providing more attention to the behavior). As for this not being allowed, it is in some states. As for teachers not being allowed to touch a child, that is state by state also. I would often arrive at the school to pick up my child, who would have several adults laying on top of him on the floor.

So we put her in a room and... (Below threshold)
Mike:

So we put her in a room and allow her to calm down heh? What do we call that room, a jail cell? Because that is what it sounds like to me. And if she didn't calm down all you naysayers would be spouting about how they could just isolate her like she was some prisoner.

News tonight in Boston said this woman had an order that the school's teachers were not allowed to touch her if she acted out, so no wonder their hands were tied in this incident.

Neil- obviously you did not... (Below threshold)
Julianne:

Neil- obviously you did not read the begining of my post where I stated that I have now been teaching 4th grade for 5 years. Obviously I did not "retire" I took 4 days off for which I was NOT paid as I was a substitute teacher at the time. The classroom teacher took off two months, as I also stated in the original post. When she returned they did have to provide a teacher's aide for her for 2 months as she had limited mobility.

How is being attacked in the work place acceptable? Neither of us sued the kid or the school though I suppose maybe we could have. Also What would you have suggested I do, allow the kid to keep the plastic bag over his head until he passed out?

Would you like to see the p... (Below threshold)
Julianne:

Would you like to see the pictures and the other teacher's operative report? It is awefully hard to "make up" a torn rotator cuff injury and a huge blackened bruise.

Another excellent post Anna... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

Another excellent post Anna. You may be touching on the ability of a child to de-centre (view a situation from another persons perspective) It has been proven that this occurs at different ages in children but is certainly not present at birth (read Piaget's stages of child development). It is thought that in some children the ability to de-centre doesn't occur until 9 years old although it does generally occur younger. Certainly 5 years old is too young for this ability to be taken for granted.

Julianne....I was a glazier... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

Julianne....I was a glazier for 18 years before I re-trained, I could show you pictures of injuries that would make you fill your breakfast bowl with vomit. My advice is that next time you both get out of his way. You tell me you watched a child attempt suicide in front of you and all you are bothered about is a few scratches? AND YOU'RE STILL A TEACHER??? Shame on you. The question is this....Do you think it's ok for the police to lift a 5 year old child out of a chair and handcuff her for being naughty? If the answer is yes then you have a duty to inform the parents of the children whom you teach of your extreme views.

PS I'm sorry you hurt yourself.

Neil give me a break, he wa... (Below threshold)
Julianne:

Neil give me a break, he was not actually attempting suicide, he was laughing about it and thought it was very funny that he was causing us all to panic.

I am not claiming that it was the worst injury in the world, but just trying to show that 5 year olds can and do cause injury to adults. I did not hurt myself, I was attacked.

Also, the girl in the video did not sit down in the chair until she saw the police come into the office. You can clearly see her look through the window, widen her eyes and then scuttle to the chair, then the police walk in. I believe she was handcuffed for the saftey of her and the police. If I ever had a child go out of control like that in my classroom I would be infavor of calling the police.

Also, in this case the mother was informed that if she did not come to the school to get her child that the police would be called. She was given ample warning to come and get the child or send someone else to get her but she chose not to. You can hear on the video that she was informed that the police would be called.

And so I don't sound like a... (Below threshold)
Julianne:

And so I don't sound like a heartless jerk. You all should know I go above and beyond my "duties" as a teacher almost everyday. I must serve as parent, social worker, mentor, nurse, etc. Yes, I knew this when I chose to be a teacher and that is fine, however there is no reason for us to need to take abuse form a child be it verbal or physical. I keep kids after school on my own time (no extra pay) because there is no one at home, I bring in snacks because even though they get free breakfast and free lunch they get hungry inbetween, I have even paid the reconnection fees to have gas and electric hooked back up because I can't think of my kids freezing at home. I give as much of myself to my kids at school as I do to my 2 1/2 year old at home and the new baby on the way. In return I expect to be treated the same. I do not scream at them nor to I hit them, therefore, child or not, I should not be screamed at or hit by them.

But the question was....Do ... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

But the question was....Do you think it's accepable for the police (three of them) to pick a 5 year old child up out of a chair and handcuff her hands behind her back? yes? or no?

I have 2 girls one 6 year old the other 11. How fragile are the arms of a 5 year old girl Julianne? Don't try to tell me or anyone else in the medical profession that handcuffing the hands of a 5 year old behind her back is a safe thing to do. of course it's not acceptable for you to be assaulted and I agree that the mother should have agreed to go straight to the school, that doesn't make it right to do what the police did. I also believe that you can see a multitude of things that the teacher has got wrong in the way she dealt with the situation as I believe that with the extra experience you have you would deal with your situations differently. Please don't tell me that you would now suggest that a 5 year olds hands should be cuffed behind his/her back (not unless you are prepared to tell the parents of your pupils anyway). Sometimes the loyalty present within certain professions can be mis-placed and even dangerous. have a think about what you are suggesting before you start believing it. Please.

I think the asst. Principal... (Below threshold)
Julianne:

I think the asst. Principal allowed the girl to get way to far out of hand. She should have folded the girls arms in front of her and held her in a bear hug hold until the mother or police arrived. If the kicking continued then another adult should have held the girls legs. There were way to many "chances" given to this child which did cause her to continue to spiral out of control.

From what I saw with the arms behind the back I do not think it should be cause for physical harm to her, kids are flexible and I am sure if you asked your 6 year old to claps her hands together behind her back she could do it no problem. If the police had tried to escort her out without the handcuffs and she had tried to run away or begin hitting again then the force that would have been needed to stop her would have been even greater. I still stand by the fact that it was done for her safety and the saftey of the adults around as well as to teach her a lesson. She had been warned before that it would happen if she acted in that manner.

And yes, I would tell the parents of my students that if their child ever got that out of control the police could be called and that at that time they would restrain the child if the police deemed it necessary.

Twice I have been punched by students, neither time have I called the police because they were not tryign to punch me. Both were cases of me trying to intervene whne students were fighting. Stupid on my part especially with the 6th graders as I am 5'2" and just over 100 pounds, these boys were 14 year old 6th graders (the age right there should tell you part of their problem) and both over 5'6" and over 160 pounds.

Yes, okay the child acted o... (Below threshold)
Meese:

Yes, okay the child acted out, but ALL children have tantrums. I don't think that it was appropriate that cops had to arrest a 5 year old. Yes she did need a good spanking by her parents but she didn't need to be forced over a table to get handcuffed. Think about if it was your child or little niece im pretty sure you wouldnt like to see a video of your realtive being forced and handcuffed. I know I wouldnt. Im in high school and going to programs to get experience teaching, where there are many out of control children. I seen teachers handle a situation where a 6 year old was hitting the teachers, tearing up the classroom, and threatning to hit the teacher with some scissors. These teachers can seem to handle the stituation without calling the police and touching the child. This video really upsets me to see what goes on in the rest of our World. Who knows how many incidents like this happens. We don't know it just so happens that this one was video taped.

Thank the good lord that th... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

Thank the good lord that the next generation of teachers in the USA promise more that the present ones I have witnessed so far. Phew!! No Julianne.... No NO No! You are on a different subject altogether talking about teenagers, I deal with them as part of a youth offending team and one thing I can tell you is this. 99% of the time there is a history of violence in the home or bullying or learning difficulties (sometimes previously undiagnosed) and sometimes even bereavement with the young people I deal with.

Most often these things have occured during the very young formative years and have had a terrible effect on people in later life. 5 year olds need to be loved and cared for, cuddled. Studies have shown these things to be as crucial as food in very young children. We are not talking about one of your 14 year olds here we are talking about a 5 year old. Would YOU, if given the authority (and these police were not) handcuff the hands of a 5 year old behind her back? yes? or no?

I teach 9 year olds, not te... (Below threshold)
Julianne:

I teach 9 year olds, not teens, just happened to observe a fight and tried to intervene.

As I stated, if a 5 year old was punching and kicking and would not stop. Just like the 5 year old who attacked me, then yes handcuffing would be okay if that is what the officials thought was needed. I already said I woud have crossed the child's arms in front of her and held her in a bear hug until the mother, or police if it had gotten that far, had arrived.

I understand the needs of a 5 year old, but they also need to be taught that hitting and kicking adults is not acceptable. I am sorry that her mother did not teach her this basic concept, however from statements made by multiple people involved, including the mother's lawyer. This child has a history of this type of behavior. Obviously the mother is not teaching her right, and if the mother can not control her then she should be in counseling for this problem. Even my 2 1/2 year old knows it is not acceptable to hit adults (or other children for that matter) or to kick them. As I said before, we do not hit or kick her, she does not hit or kick us.

Hi. I am USAF Security forc... (Below threshold)
Yogi:

Hi. I am USAF Security forces. The amount of force an officer can use is controlled by regulations. The use of handcuffs is a USE OF FORCE, and NOT AUTOMATIC. This scene is a severe 4th amendment violation, as the police did NOT need to restrain the child.

Also, what did the cops do NEXT? Take her to the station? If they did, they need to press charges.

Although it's unscientific,... (Below threshold)
wesley:

Although it's unscientific, I shuddered when I read the results of a poll conducted by the St. Petersburg Times asking if it was ever appropriate to handcuff a small child. Nearly 60% believe that it is. I wonder what they'd think if it were their child being handled in such a manner? Or a little 5-year-old white girl being handcuffed? But, ah, this is Pinellas County, Florida. Need more be said? Equally disturbing is the action taken by not one, but two teacher and an assistant principal. It should be obvious that Florida educational administrators need to rethink their approach to handling unruly children.

from what I've just been re... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

from what I've just been reading the recruitment system for the teaching proffesion needs to be seriously looked at. Of course what the police did was a use of force.....a use of FORCE by fully grown adults against a 5 year old girl. Worse still ladies and gentlemen I show you all a TEACHER who is prepared to admit that she would do exactly the same.

This is why the parent MUST SUE otherwise the 60% of dimwits that answered the poll that was just described will be allowed to mis-shape the values within your society.

In Reply To Christine 4/24:... (Below threshold)
Rick:

In Reply To Christine 4/24:
Why should the mother be ordered to take parenting classes? It was the teachers that not only couldn't handle the five year old girl, they obviously provoked her while in their care and custody. Those fat teachers obviously don't care about themselves, just look at them. They look like k.k clans woman. They are probably racist and were abusing the child and encouraging and allowing the white racist kids to pick on her too. That would explain why the child was so upset at the school; not at home. This likely abuse would cause any child to activate some kind of defense mechanism. Then after the child can't take any more abuse and goes off the school calls the police on her. The police were wrongfully called in and they demonstrated less inteligence and compassion for the obviously troubled child than a hungry pitbull would have. One criteria for being a police officer should be reasonable intelligence don't you think? Putting handcuff's on a five year old. Sounds like something that would happen in Nazi Germany or Russia or a kk. linching. We obviously need to demand that Congress stop funding these hate organization offiliated bureaucracies using federal monies or we are all going to end up worse than the Jews did in Nazi Germany.

I can remember getting my k... (Below threshold)
Doug:

I can remember getting my knuckles smacked with the edge of a ruler when I was in 2nd or 3rd grade for talking in class. It only happened once! We would NEVER even think of acting out the way this kid did.

As the parrent of a 7 year ... (Below threshold)
Cadrial:

As the parrent of a 7 year old boy with a history of disrupting his classes, I can say that some of you get it and others don't. It seems that those who claim to be the most educated don't get it. If I or my wife get a call from the school that there is a problem with our son, we will give the school premision to physically detain the kid in a bear hug until one of us can get there. If working, I would leave work to deal with the problem so it dosn't escalate into a situation fit for the 7-oclock news. The well being of my children come before my job. I can always find another job. I could never replace my children.
The school and police were forced to do what the did by the laws put in place by the very people who are attacking them. This year my son has calmed down and is doing much better because we enforce boundasies and work with the school letting them know how we expect them to deal with the problems. From what I get from reading your comments, watching the videos and listening to the news is that the parrent didn;t alow the school any tools to deal with their daughter, didn't consider her daughter important enough to lose a little time at work and now is trying to hold the school at fault for her daughters actions by sueing the school and police. She dosn't care about her child, she only cares about money. I'd bet that if she wins a setlement, she'll spend the money on herself, what little she gets after her lawyer gets his lions share.

Don't have to guess too har... (Below threshold)
neil shone:

Don't have to guess too hard at why you've had problems with your son do we Cadrial. You carry making a silent enemy out of him and get back to me in a few years and let me know who was right. You don't make it clear whether you think it acceptable for the police (three of them) to pick a 5 year old child up out of a chair and handcuff her hands behind her back? We are not talking about reasonable restraint we are talking about arresting a 5 year old in the same manner as an adult murderer.

Neil, you still haven't ans... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Neil, you still haven't answered my question about what country you are from. People don't take this Neil character seriously, please read his first couple of posts, he does not deserve serious consideration although claims to be some sort of authority.

According to news report the mother had an order stating that the school could not lay a hand on her daughter if she acted out, why is that? What are the teachers now supposed to do? Especially when the mother won't leave work, the mom here sounds like a real piece of work.

The way some of you describe the cops handcuffing her, you'd think they took out the billy clubs and hit her in the back of the head. The cops have dealt with the child before, indicated by the way they talked to her and now it was time to show this little one what happens when you keep having the police called on you. According to reports too, the girl was placed in the police car and later released because no one would prosecute a 5 year old. Let's hope this taught her a valuable lesson.

And I like how some of you feel this woman should sue, why is that? What does that do? How does giving this woman money rectify the situation? It doesn't, it just creates more conflicts down the line when other policemen and teachers and etc. are afraid to do things for fear of being sued. That's why were here in the first place. Cadrial above is commendable in the fact that he is taking responsibility for his son's actions and helping to correct them. And for Rick and others citing Nazi Germany and calling this racist obviously see race roles in everything they look at.

The loss of personal responsibility, increased PC bullsh*t, and the idea that sueing others fixes problems has led us down this path.

The most ridiculous aspect ... (Below threshold)
Geoff:

The most ridiculous aspect of this debate is that there are actually people that are incensed with the way this ill mannered child was handled. The police used a "scared straight" tactic by putting this repeatedly troubled child in handcuffs in an effort to turn this child's behavior around and should be applauded. Let's hope the child sustained a little emotional distress, because that's the intent.

When people no longer have fear of punishisment this is the result. By scaring this child with real punishment we may have saved her and society serious problems in the future.

The root of this problem is poor parenting. She doesn't appear to be getting a decent education at home and that's what should be scrutinized.

This is a perfect example of the problem with overly liberal policy. You reap what you sow. Keep that image of a teacher with her hands tied unable to control a child in your mind.

Overly liberal policies are a breeding ground for irresponsibility. The finger pointing blameless segment of society represented by the defendents and their representation are a fine example.

So I say to all of you that are outraged; continue to do what you do best: complain - point your finger - draft a new law.

Neil- do not put words in m... (Below threshold)
Julianne:

Neil- do not put words in my mouth. I did not say I would use force against a child. I saidif the child was behaving in a violent manner, as this girl was, that I would cross her arms in front of her and hold her in abear hug until parents or police arrived, for her safety and my own. If the police chose to handcuff her that is their decision not mine.

Cadrial, good for you working with the school to help your son. Obviously it is working as you said the behavior is improving.

Neil you also have not said how you would handle the child. COntinue to allow her to hit and kick? And tell me, why should the other children in the class be forced to miss out on educational time because of this one child? Shouldn't the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?

Great points Mike and Geoff

I also think it is very very interesting that the mother's lawyer released these 2 pieces of video yet did not release the video of the original incident, the taking of the jelly beans for acting up in class. Now granted it could be because other children were on the tape, but we all know their faces could be fuzzed out. From what I heard in March when this happened, the child was even more out of control then, screaming at the top of her lungs, throwing chairs, flinging her fists about wildly and this is why the class had to be removed as the other children were in danger. Also I was told then that it was reported that the child has a history of these types of violent outbursts and that the mother had been repeatedly warned that if it happened again she would need to come immediately to remove the child or the police would be called.

Mike...the KINDERGARTEN had... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

Mike...the KINDERGARTEN had the option of not taking this child in if the restrictions were thought to be unreasonable. Why had the mother put an order for the girl not to be touched in the first place....what had they done before. Why do you need help off the rest of the board to help you make your point Mike? Why are you so interested in making our debate a conflict between our countries Mike? Do you need the rest of the USA to back you up as well? safety in numbers? Mike you are a coward, you only seek to provoke a debate about an issue with which there is no logic because the only people who speak to you are the other members of your paedophile ring or your friends in the KKK and they are all too busy rubbing themselves against the wall to talk to you.

I believe now that your country still hasn't moved on from the pre Martin-Luther-king era and have serious concerns about the attitudes of the county in question to it's black community. I am white by the way and am a UK citizen (it didn't take a lot of working out really did it Mike). STOP!!! Before you tell me to concentrate on the problems in my own country I think this issue does have a bearing on the UK. We are seen throughout the world as having the same values as the US and are recognised as being friends so I ask the authorities within your country to keep a thought in mind for everybody the global televising of such issues affects.

For heavens sake do you not care about being compared to the Nazi's? I care about being assotiated with a people who condone the handcuffing of a 5 year old. I hold faith in my belief that the majority of decent citizens condemn violent acts against children and firmly believe that anyone giving you the help that you crave in your argument are either liars, racists, paedophiles, drunkards, drug addicts or just very very lonely.

I know Mike....why don't you call the police to help you....better still what about the marines? see what reception you get off them if you ask them to handcuff a kid. Ahh you wouldn't though would you because you are just a lonely coward.

Last point, I studied and still study in University in the UK and guess what? my PAT is an American and she's excellent at her job and extremely knowledgeable. You could do with having her back if you ask me.

Geoff...I agree with you that teachers both in the USA AND the UK are placed in an extremely difficult situation with regards the ability to discipline students. I don't know about the USA but this situation arose in the UK through the inappropriate use of excesive force by poor teachers years ago. So tell me what this case does to help the cause of your teachers. The overiding factor here is the age of the girl 5. I'm sorry if i keep repeating it but I'm still struggling to believe it. If they were ordered not to touch the girl something has happened before in my opinion; this not being the case they should have refused admission to the school untill the parent made a reasonable compramise. NOT CALL THE POLICE TO HAND CUFF HER. Where the police also told they were not allowed to restrain the girl??

Sorry they got it ALL wrong and I hope they get sued big time. The benefit from sueing? It hits the only thing people with such shallow values can feel....their pockets, because God knows they can't have any feeling or natural protective instinct if they can stand and watch OR take part in such a barbaric act. Take them to the cleaners, sack the teachers and jail the police officers.

Julianne....I can tell from... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

Julianne....I can tell from your reluctance to answer that you know that it was wrong to handcuff this 5 year old girl. If the school did not posess the fascilities to deal with this childs special needs then she should have been transfered to a place that does. My one and only point is this....IT IS WRONG FOR 3 POLICE OFFICERS TO PICK A CHILD UP OUT OF A CHAIR AND HANDCUFF HER HANDS BEHIND HER BACK.

Jullianne you are backtracking you stated earlier that basically it was for the childs own safety that she was handcuffed. My point is not about who is ultimately to blame my point is that what was done was so very wrong. What is the age of criminal responsibility in the USA? I bet it's older than 5... or do the authorities have the power to change the law at will with regards to naughty black 5-year-olds?

Ill ask you all again for a simple yes or no.... Is it OK for the police to pick a 5 year old girl up out of a chair and handcuff her hands behind her back. Yes? or no?

In my 17 years as a foster ... (Below threshold)
Look Deeper:

In my 17 years as a foster parent I saw a lot of kids with behavior issues but I never once felt the need to show them that I was bigger and tougher than they were. Scaring kids straight runs along the same mentality line of most of today's daytime talk shows where teenagers who have been acting out are sent to "boot camp" after having a sargeant scream in their face on national TV. Humiliation and intimidation may get immediate results, but they certainly aren't lasting or healthy results.

People who have defended the police and school's decision have made the assumption that this child has a healthy brain (no FASD, learning disorders or mental illness), that she hasn't experienced trauma like sexual abuse and that she is simply a brat. I just hope that the mentality of the people working in the nursing home that I might eventually end up in do not make assumptions like these about me! "I told her several times to stay in bed but she keeps wandering...we roughed her up a bit and I think we scared her straight this time!" Yikes!!

This country has the idea that the best way to deal with any situation is by a show of force. The problem with this approach is that the person who is made to feel helpless will try anything to feel more powerful and in control. Gangs are full of people who were once made to feel powerless. Our school children are being killed by their peers who bring in gun power as a reaction to feeling helpless and small. Wake up people! Look Deeper!

Neil, what in the hell are ... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Neil, what in the hell are you talking about? I was merely asking you to respond to a question I had asked about what country you were from since you were ranting and raving about the U.S. and how bad we are. You made the argument about U.S. policies, I was just curious where your ego resides. And yes, I kind of figured you were from the UK. Let's take the rest of your statements bit by bit shall we, and I apologize to the others for taking up space, please disregard:

Why do you need help off the rest of the board to help you make your point Mike?

Neil, there are others commenting on this board and I don't see how engaging them while I debate you is any reason to think I am asking for help. I can handle myself.

Mike you are a coward, you only seek to provoke a debate about an issue with which there is no logic because the only people who speak to you are the other members of your paedophile ring or your friends in the KKK and they are all too busy rubbing themselves against the wall to talk to you.

How do I respond to such garbage? Insults, ad-hominen attacks all combined for what? What is it? You can't debate without resorting to such viscious attacks. And you call yourself an intellectual?

I believe now that your country still hasn't moved on from the pre Martin-Luther-king era and have serious concerns about the attitudes of the county in question to it's black community.

And you came to this conclusion how? I'll be sure to bring up your serious concerns during the next election, I'm sure the rest of the country is really interested in the opinion of someone living in the UK.

We are seen throughout the world as having the same values as the US and are recognised as being friends so I ask the authorities within your country to keep a thought in mind for everybody the global televising of such issues affects.

Give me a break. We don't make policy or change policy here, or do things for that matter, based on the perceptions the world community may have of the UK based on the US. That's ridiculous.

For heavens sake do you not care about being compared to the Nazi's?

No, because the comparison is ridiculous and an insult to all those effected by Nazi Germany.

I care about being assotiated with a people who condone the handcuffing of a 5 year old. I hold faith in my belief that the majority of decent citizens condemn violent acts against children and firmly believe that anyone giving you the help that you crave in your argument are either liars, racists, paedophiles, drunkards, drug addicts or just very very lonely.

Why are you associated with those who condone this? I doubt any US citizen would associate you with this incident. This was not a violent act! And so anyone who agrees with me (and thus disagrees with you) is either a racist, liar, pedophile, and etc.? Again, insults, ad-hominen, what a way to debate. You're such a gentleman.


Neil, you are showing your inability to argue and address points made by others by simply attacking the character of people you've never met. Real classy. You do however make one interesting point:

the KINDERGARTEN had the option of not taking this child in if the restrictions were thought to be unreasonable. Why had the mother put an order for the girl not to be touched in the first place....what had they done before.

A valid point, although I'm not sure that a public school has a choice at first whether or not they can accept students. Why did the mother have that order, good question, but why do you assume the school did something before?


Other than that, your insults and ridiculous insuations show what a contemptable man you really are.

Neil- I don't know how thin... (Below threshold)
Julianne:

Neil- I don't know how things work in the UK, but in the USA a PUBLIC school can not refuse to accept a student. After a certain amount of outbursts and rages a school may choose to place a child on home instruction, sending a teacher to the home for an hour a day but getting to that point is a lengthly process that requires lots and lots of documentation. So no, the school could not REFUSE to accept the child, it doesn't work that way here.

I don't know how many times you want me to say it. I myself would not handcuff the child, I would hold her in a bear hug until the police or parents got there, for her safety and my own. If the police felt handcuffs were necessary then that is there decision to make.

also if you watch the video, yes there were 3 officers, but only 2 of them were touching her until she started kicking and yelling at them, that is when they had one on each arm and one with the cuffs.

Im reading the responses of... (Below threshold)
Concerned person:

Im reading the responses of people and there are a few assholes, because you tell me if a child acts out like that and really has a bad day or a tantrum and comes to school and hurts your child like the 6 yr old that took a gun to school and shot another student because the little girl did not like them you would be ok with it and say all that child needs is a hug. bull because I would be upset with that child and there parents I think they did what was in the best interest of the child and others it may could have been handle a little different,she could have easily grabbed there gun who knows this kid has some problems.but that little girl knew what she was doing cause when she saw the police come in she sat down. my whole problem with this is that the parent never showed up until she thought there was a case she could bring against someone now she wants to be the concerned parent. bull, she needs to find another scam, and get some help for her child and herself.

Concerned Person,Nob... (Below threshold)
Look Deeper:

Concerned Person,
Nobody ever said that all this little girl needed was a hug! She needs a complete neurological evaluation, her family needs intervention services and her teachers and parent(s) need to agree on a behavior plan, set up an IEP or implement support services, etc... The school has stated that this mom directed them not to touch her child when she had previously acted up in school. At that point the school should have required an alternative plan that could be agreed upon by all involved. If the school personel had concerns about the mother's ability to cooperate or to care for her child they should have reported their concerns to CPS and documented their attempts.

My son suffered early childhood trauma at the hands of his birth family and he was prenatally exposed to alcohol which resulted in static encephalopathy...permanent brain damage. He has a normal IQ but struggles in school due in part to the DSI (dysfunction of sensory integration) that stems from his FASD (fetal alcohol spectrum disorder). (This article might help you understand what it is like for these kids...http://come-over.to/FAS/schoolofhope.htm ) He also has attachment issues. He has days in school like this...in fact, I received a call from his teacher yesterday afternoon saying that because of a change in routine he had become frustrated and dumped his desk on the floor. The plan to deal with this behavior was set up long ago by us, his parents, and the entire IEP team. He was removed from the classroom to a calm environment where he could work one on one with an aide and he was required to come back at the end of the day with one of us to clean up the contents of his desk. He complied and we talked about strategies to reduce the frustration caused by changes in routine, substitute teachers, etc.. Proactive planning and thinking outside the box are helping my child to be successful in school. His teacher is a gem too...she seperates him from his behaviors and she understands that he is not willfully acting out even though it looks like that to the untrained eye.

I would like to suggest a wonderful new book that is very relevant to this topic..."Damaged Angels" by Bonnie Buxton. May 2005 American release, Carroll & Graf publishing. People raising healthy brained children who understand consequences will always sit in judgment of those of us who are parenting children with FASD, mental illness or other brain differences. Challenge yourself to think beyond the simplistic spank or hug solutions. There are strategies and they work.

Ok then handcuffing 5 year ... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

Ok then handcuffing 5 year olds is ok...it was the right thing to do. That's why it's made INTERNATIONAL news and caused outrage throughout the world. Of course we're only supposed to mention how advanced the USA is aren't we. Well in all fairness they must be to make handcuffs that fold that small.

how dare I stand up for a small girl when I don't vote in your country. Did you realise that the election system in your country is the joke of Europe? You shouldn't have to be rich to stand for election....how can that be fair? Plato, Socrete's and Aristotle (none of them Americans cos there was no such animal in those days) must be wetting themselves. Your country is a cock up all you have is money and bombs. You think anyone that dares tell you you're getting something wrong is just being insulting.

I have no doubt that the people resposible for bullying a 5 year old will get their day in court and rightly so. As for guns...well do I really have to tell you that that is another area you could learn from the UK? Not to mention not being able to get medical trearment unless you can afford it...ask any American that's been taken ill in the UK how it should be done. Why do some of you always think you know best when you get so much wrong. The first step in putting something right is admitting it's wrong in the first place. I can't believe that it's a 5 year old girls fault now that kids carry guns in your country.

Come on...just admit it...just try saying it and see how it feels....3 adults handcuffing a 5 year old girls arms behind her back for throwing a tantrum is wrong.

It's much better than trying to find every possible angle of blaming your countries short-comings on a 5 year old you know....honest.

What do they call it? The American Dream? bloody nightmare more like it.

Look Deeper,I appl... (Below threshold)
Julianne:

Look Deeper,

I appluad you for all that you and your son's school are doing to help him. We have behavior plans in place like that at our school as well.

I think the problem in this case is that the mother would not come to the school when they requested and she did not send someone else to come and help the child settle down. From comments made it is obvious that the school had spoken with the mother previously about her daughter's behavior and the mother had been informed that if she did not come to assist with dealing with the child then the police would be called. The mother held in her hands the opportunity to keep the police out of the whole matter yet she chose not to.

When a parent refuses to assist the school with the handling of a child's out of control behavior the school has very little other action that can be taken. There is a huge difference, in my opinion, between your son acting in the manner nad this little girl, even if she is found to have the exact same conditions or other disabilities that cause her to act this way. The difference is you are helping the school and workign with them to give your son the skills needed to cope with transitions, disappointment, and his feelings. It is obvious that this mother is not doing that or else she, or someone she trusts to help her, would have been at the school when they told her that she needed to come or the police would be called.

In the classroom video you ... (Below threshold)
Krickett:

In the classroom video you see that the school called the mom before calling the police if she would have come and taken care of her wild child the police may never have been involved. I think for the child's own safety she need to be handcuffed just to control her and keep her from possibly hurting herself.
Also I am proud of the classroom teachers for keeping their cool I would have back handed her after the first five minutes. One more vote for corporal punishment back in schools.

Look Deeper- With all due r... (Below threshold)
Geoff:

Look Deeper- With all due respect you are making unfair comparisons.

I'll re-quote you here:
People who have defended the police and school's decision have made the assumption that this child has a healthy brain (no FASD, learning disorders or mental illness), that she hasn't experienced trauma like sexual abuse and that she is simply a brat. I just hope that the mentality of the people working in the nursing home that I might eventually end up in do not make assumptions like these about me! "I told her several times to stay in bed but she keeps wandering...we roughed her up a bit and I think we scared her straight this time!" Yikes!!

You are twisting my argument the police were using a "scared straight" tactic on someone that was mentally unable to know what they were doing.

This child knew full well what she was doing and you do her a disservice be insinuating that she is a mental vegetable. She very obviously and rationally chose to act innocent and quiet when she saw that there was a potential for real punishment when the police arrived.

The problem is that this child has been conditioned to realize that threats of punishment are never backed up and therefore don't need to be heeded. This is the root of the problem. Ask yourself how we need to fix the problem from where it lies.

You need to think with you head instead of your heart. By taking this case to court the parents and the lawyer are in effect re-enforcing this child's behavior.

The police were obviously not trying to hurt the child and discipline needs to start somewhere. It's not being taught at home and the school doesn't have any authority to enforce proper behavior.

Krickett,As someone ... (Below threshold)
Look Deeper:

Krickett,
As someone who "would have back handed her in the first 5 minutes" you, more than most people, should see how dangerous it would be to allow frustrated adults the right to hit the children in their care. Where else in our society can we hit people who irritate us?! I worked in the complaint department in a local medical center and I dealt with irate patients on a daily basis. I had to learn skills to be able to be effective in my job... how can we expect any less of those people who are caring for our children?

Julianne,
I agree that the difference is that we have set up strategies and cooperated with our son's teachers, but I still contend that the child should not have been handcuffed because the adults around her failed to have an adequate plan. The mom could not (or would not) come to the school immediately...so the responsibility rested on the teachers and school administrators to deal with the situation until she showed up. Like it or not, the child was in their care and they were responsible for her well being.

Geoff,My son would m... (Below threshold)
Look Deeper:

Geoff,
My son would most likely have snapped out of a meltdown if the police had shown up too. He looks completely normal, even adorable if I do say so myself, and people always assume that he is in control if they do not know better. I used the nursing home comparison because Alzheimers and FASD have a lot in common...functioning ability can often come and go during the day.

People with FASD can be very intelligent and high functioning in many areas and I certainly never said that she was a mental vegetable!! One of the main neurological differences between someone with this disorder and someone with a healthy brain is that people with FASD are unable to think situations through and are usually surprised by the consequences of their actions. Those "stupid criminal" jokes and emails are usually about people with FASD...when the frontal lobe and corpus collosum of the brain are damaged it does not function the way it should.

There is no excuse for handcuffing a Kindergartener...ever. Discipline is not a show or force- rather it is direction and guidence, given respectfully not in frustration, that ultimately serves to teach children to regulate their behaviors and act appropriately toward others. The power behind "I'm bigger and stronger than you are" only lasts for a while...eventually the children grow up.

Look DeeperAs an adu... (Below threshold)
Krickett:

Look Deeper
As an adult who has NEVER actually back handed anyone adult or child I was really just emphasizing the the amount of self control the assistant principle showed and I guess rather flippantly expressing the frustration I feel as a parent of two sons and proud citizen of the U.S. at the lack of limits that current parenting philosophies promotes. I agree with others that lack of accountability for children and adults does both a great disservice.
Maybe the assistant principle should file her own law suit or criminal charges against the parent/child for assault.
The schools hands were tied all they could do was attempt to keep the child and others safe until ether the parent (who chose not to come immediately) or authorities came.
Whether the child is emotionally/physically/behaviorally challenged I don't see how the teachers did anything inappropriate.
What the police did is a separate issue and as I already stated I feel it was necessary to restrain the child for her safety if she was thrashing and kicking.

This child's mother most li... (Below threshold)
Dano:

This child's mother most likely told her to act that way around any white administrator for the sole purpose of screwing the school out of money.

Look Deeper,Thanks f... (Below threshold)
Geoff:

Look Deeper,
Thanks for your insightful reply. We are making some assumptions here when it comes to this debate. As much as we may try it's to some degree unavoidable. You assume that this child is developmentally disabled. I assume that there are problems at home with her upbringing.

From my perspective and the cues I get from watching this video your situation with your son is most likely much different than this one. You seem to be a genuinely concerned and active parent and I applaud you for that.

What makes me believe that this situation is not a case of a mentally handicapped child is:
1. The apparent lack of a plan to deal with outbursts such as this. (Good parents of mentally handicapped children always have a plan and have discussed the situation with the teachers.)
2. The mother's failure to respond suitably when called.
3. No mention of a father figure.
4. The child's actions when the police arrived.
5. The parent's haste to sue (This is a character cue. What positive effect does suing accomplish??)

When the police are called they are expected to do something. That's their job. To say they should be sued for it is sad. They were neither violent or unprofessional. They had talked with this child and her mother before and were obviously informed enough to know if the child didn't know right from wrong due to mental illness.

I have a sister that is mentally handicapped so please don't take my perspective as insensitive to those with disabilities. I just don't think that is the case here. I guess we will all learn more as more information is revealed.

Geoff,Some of the re... (Below threshold)
Look Deeper:

Geoff,
Some of the red flags that you noticed in this story leading you to suspect a lack of discipline in the home are the same red flags that I saw regarding possible alcohol use in this little girl's family...leading me to ultimately suspect FASD in this little girl. It isn't a stretch of the imagination since it is estimated that 80% of children in the U.S. foster care system (kids whose families are struggling like this family appears to be) have FASD although most will never be properly diagnosed (http://www.acbr.com/fas/statbad.htm ). Often times moms aren't even aware (or are in denial) that their child's behavior problems might be because of their drinking during pregnancy. At any rate, evaluations need to be done and services need to be available for this family if there is to be any hope for this child.

What a useless teacher that... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

What a useless teacher that child has been wound up to high heaven. Sack the teacher and jail the police. They have not got a clue.

I just took my 6 year old shopping

My 6 year old can be stress... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

My 6 year old can be stressfull sometimes in a superstore but you have to know how to deal with her. Outside in the car-park I took her by the arm against her will to take her safely to the car. I couldn't help thinking about this young girl while i did that and thinking how small weak and fragile my daughters arms were. my eyes filled with tears at that point.

You know at 6 years old my daughter needs the love and care of the adults close to her and this girl is no exeption. They didn't need to empty that class and focus on her like that....the teachers were enjoying it....making it last. There was no reason that little one couldn't be taken by the arm into the playgroud. The teachers made contact with her on several occasions.

The mother was at work....why is it being assumed that she is a drug addict and alchoholic? Is it because you can't accept what has just happened in what is supposed to be one of the most developed countries in the world?

Just get real and sack or re-train the teachers and jail the cops for assault on a minor. Jeez.

This has broken my heart. I can't watch it again.

Neil,I don't think I... (Below threshold)
Look Deeper:

Neil,
I don't think I said that the mom sounded like an addict...you don't have to be an alcohlic to give birth to a child with FASD. One or two episodes of binge drinking is enough to do permanent damage to the unborn child.

Neil,You do not have... (Below threshold)
Look Deeper:

Neil,
You do not have to be an alcoholic to give birth to a child with FASD...just one or two episodes of binge drinking is enough to do permanent damage to the developing child's brain. FASD is very common...it just gets called by other less judgmental names.

Oops! I didn't think my po... (Below threshold)
Look Deeper:

Oops! I didn't think my post went through so I re-wrote it. I didn't mean to repeat myself!

Look DeeperI heard... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

Look Deeper

I heard you the first time lol. Actually I wasn't refering to your posts which I think have been most informative and sensible. I feel strongly about this (in case you havent noticed) I have worked with children with ADHD via a local charity organisation and I find if they are dealt with correctly then the use of ritalin (not sure what you call it over there) can often be minimised or even stopped altogether. If we cant protect the 5 year olds in the world who can we protect? we can't handcuff 5 year old kids for heavens sake...it's like a bad dream that video.

If they are allowed to get away with it it will be seen as acceptable and become the norm. Look up conformity in a social psychology general text. It's quite frightening.

The "contact" made by the a... (Below threshold)
Julianne:

The "contact" made by the asst. principal and the other woman were a gentle hand on the shoulder and then the asst. principal removing the girl from the table. Taking a child by the arm and removing her to the playground would have required a use of force, do you really think a child throwing a tantrum like that would have willingly gone with them to the playground?

The other students had to be removed for their safety, as I stated earlier, the original report about this in March said the girl began throwing things around the classroom. Had you daughter been in that class and had a chair thrown at her I am sure you would think differently about removing the class.

The Brat in question should... (Below threshold)
All Parents:

The Brat in question should have been Spanked. When I was that age If I did that I would have been taken to the principals office, my parents informed that I was about to be "swatted", my parents would agree to the swatting, and I would have been swatted. Afterwards I wouldn't have done that again.

Spanking is the only tried and true form of discipline for small children, NOTHING else will work.

Talking to them does NOT work, Timeout Does NOT work.

What you see in this video is the product of high self esteem at work.

IT doesn't matter what color she is. She's lucky she was only handcuffed. They could have pepper sprayed her.

I don't see a black child, white child, polka dotted child, I see a spoiled obnoxious BRAT!

Thus endeth the lesson.

P.S. Stop drugging children that just creates undisciplined zombies.

i apologize for being a com... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

i apologize for being a complete moron. i don't know what i was thinking. If my parents had spanked me when i needed it i wouldn't be posting curse words on a public internet site, or accusing people i have never met of being pedophiles and Bigots. In reality i am guilty of all the things i accused everyone else of. i am a sniveling liberal and do not deserve to live. i am going off now to strangle on my own bile, built up from years of hating people who have the nerve to think differently from me. i hate myself because i have never had an original thought in my under developed brain. If it weren’t for CNN and NPR i would have nothing to talk about. i suck so bad.

The one thing I'll never ha... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

The one thing I'll never have to do is imitate the person I can't beat in a debate in order to scratch my way up to a level intellectual footing. If I did and the person I was trying to imitate was british I wouldn't give myself away by using the phrase "suck" since everyone knows that in the UK we only use that phrase to describe what American perverts get children to do with their undersized penis (located beneath their oversized bellies...you'll find it if you feel around long enough).

By the way....did you know American police have to handcuff 5 year old girls' hands behind their back to control them LMAO. Hey....why don't you go the whole hog and cut their heads off and place them on their backs lol. You just get more and more pathetic, I'm no longer concerned about your views as it's plain that you're just a coward who can't even use his own full name on here. Thing is...it's a shame for the decent people in America that we get to see far to many of your cowards picking on people who are tied up don't we. But I've seen how you oversized wankers weep when it happens back.

Sheesh a 5 year old girl in handcuffs. If it wasn't so sad I'd laugh again

i'm sorry i did it again. p... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

i'm sorry i did it again. please forgive me. i'm trying to compensate for shriveled little john thompson. i can't help it. Now where is my medication......

Bye now i've found the chat... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

Bye now i've found the chat rooms where perverts are banned so I'm going to them. Obviously i won't see you there so all the best. rub a dub dub ;-)

i'm not sure how i got acce... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

i'm not sure how i got access. If they only knew what goes on behind my bedstead. I especially like little boy's who play football. Oh... i've said too much. Someone spank me please!

Comment text is required.<b... (Below threshold)
Terez:

Comment text is required.

I'm a parent. I am a profe... (Below threshold)
Liberal American:

I'm a parent. I am a professional. I work hard. I'm honest. I love my country. I'm a Liberal.

It isn't necessary for me to handcuff a five year old to prompt her to behave. I'm a LOT bigger than she is. Schools should have the option of restraining children if they cannot (or will not) control themselves. I would have put her on my lap and held her hands in front of her and talked to her until she calmed down. This would be the case whether the parent prohibited it or not.

This child should have been permanently expelled from her school. I can't believe another public school accepted her. If her mother can't come to control her and she can't give appropriate permission to the school to handle her, she should be left to deal with her.

Go ahead try that useless l... (Below threshold)
Not a Liberal:

Go ahead try that useless liberal claptrap. But be warned Neil shone will come along and accuse you of molesting her.

Don't you know teacher are not allowed to touch children in any way that might even remotely appear to be affectionate or calming. They are only allowed to follow them around saying, "please stop that", and "that makes me sad".

They must be allowed to express themselves. We wouldn't want to harm their fragile little egos or give them low self-esteem. Why -GASP- they might obey someone in authority or -NO- behave.

Neil,please tell m... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Neil,

please tell me you don't think that 1) I've somehow lost a debate against you, and 2) that I would even do something so juvenille as to imitate you on a message board. Please. Besides, you haven't refuted any of my points, you simply play on emotion, use insults and ad-hominem, play the race card, and the claim to have all sorts of degrees so your opinion is superior. How is that proving anything?

And please tell me that it was really your entry when you talked about how grabbing your daughter's arm in a parking lot against her will made you cry. Did that really happen? If so, grow up man, you're only doing that for her safety, jeez.

The mother should have han... (Below threshold)
michael:

The mother should have hand cuffs slapped on her for allowing such disrespect for authority. Obviously it starts at home and if you love your child you would discipline them. So her mother must not love her enough to teach her values- like respect, and proper behavior.
That little girl should not be allowed back into any school, until she can lean to respect someone. Children that act up like that beg for guidance, they naturally need borders and limits and when they are not giving that this is what happens.

Did I mention your name in ... (Below threshold)
Neil shone:

Did I mention your name in those last few posts Mike? Not very bright are you sir.

Neil, I'll give you one thi... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Neil, I'll give you one thing, you are a master at avoiding and not answering questions. Truly a master.

i've explained what should ... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

i've explained what should happen and more importantly in this case what should NOT have happened....that's the most important issue here.

Actually, from my observati... (Below threshold)
Helen:

Actually, from my observation African heritaged children's home discipline in general is much more fastidious than those of White children who get to whine and negotiate.

Plus it is very common for White teachers to victimize, abuse and insult African American and African Canadian children. Wonder if that is what happened here.

Not too long ago I had to admonish very large white viking type of male for showing disrespect to a black male child on the street who had dropped something on the ground. This man was over 6 feet and seemed big and scary to me 5'6'' and 123 lbs. He wasn't banking on an obviously well put together looking Africana adult coming to bat for a working class looking black child.

I was glad I was able to go to bat for this particular boy. Because he might have internalized that when a black child litters he is treated more harshly than a white child and become very angry later on- just what I don't want to see in the community.

I have always said in gener... (Below threshold)
Julianne:

I have always said in general that the poor black children I teach are more well behaved than the poor white children I teach. From my observations of the households I teach (inner city) it seems that the poor blck households generally have a stronger sense of community with other families and with their church that helps to provide more stability in the child's life. Again though, it does not seem to be the case here.

Neil- You have not answered my question as to what should have been done IMMEDIATELY, other than to say take the child to the playground. That is Genious I must say. Lets condition the child to know that if she acts out she gets to go outside to the playground. What child (or adult for that matter) wouldn't begin having more and more episodes so that they could go outside for a bit on a nice day? This is the same reason schools are reluctant to use sending a child home when behavior escalates (though sometimes it is the only alternative) then the children know they can go home and watch tv whenever they don't feel like being in school just by throwing a fit.

I think it is wrong to arre... (Below threshold)
Janel:

I think it is wrong to arrest that little girl for having a tamtrum all five year olds have a tamtrum. That is wrong because that little girl is only five and does not diserve to be handcuff just because of a little tamtrum plus these white people can not handle a black child. I am not trying to be a racist.

now this little girl is a b... (Below threshold)
ruth:

now this little girl is a black five year old. she had a tantrum. i know if you were in her predicament you would not want to be handcuffed in medal. i know throwing books around would not kill someone!!! if i threw a book at someones head it would hurt! but not kill someone!! now she is five and if that girl was WHITE she wouldnt of been handcuffed. jeez 5 year olds do not know right from wrong. she is like in kindergarden and getting arrested? i understand a third grader or something but 5 years old?? you stupid dumb people should be put in jail because of that. that is a shame. you should be ashamed of your self, you crazy stupid IDIOTS. and i agree with JANEL. plus yall cant handle a black kid

Jullianne. As i said the ov... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

Jullianne. As i said the overiding factor in this case is that the child was handcuffed. I havent disagreed that the roots behind her behaviour possibly run deep however we don't know what they are from simply looking at the behaviour ... that's impossible. You have to find the real cause before you find a solution. Tell you what though the solution isn't handcuffing a 5 year old baby...it isn't spanking either...why?? well apart from being cruel these things cause further deep rooted problems. A bit like building a sea defence near one town only for the next town to be flooded worse still due to the exess water caused. In taking the children out of the class the girl was given 100% attention....no different to being taken out to the playground but the opportunities to further capitalise on the situation are fewer therefore the child would probably calm down more quickly.

Again though...my argument is against the handcuffing of a 5 year olds hands behind her back. The issues with the girl in terms of her behaviour have not been dealt with properly prior to this incident therefore there are other parties to blame, I don't dispute that. What happened ultimately was a situation that was dealt with badly culminating in one of the cruelest acts I've ever seen on a 5 year old.

My sister in law is a teacher and I have friends who are teachers and I am aware of the difficulties they encounter due to the limits put on them. Still doesn't make it right to handcuff that child and still doesn't mean that the teachers involved couldn't have handled the situation better when they clearly could have.

Neil, again, what are the t... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Neil, again, what are the teachers to do when they are not allowed to even touch the girl? And remember, the teachers are also responsible for other kids in their class during this kid's outburst. When they finally isolated her in the assistant principal's office, she doesn't calm down, she ransacks the place, jumps on the table and punches the assistant principal. The mother is already been called and said she can't come to take care of it, now what? They called the police who handled the situation as best they could. They treated this girl with kid gloves, placed her in handcuffs and put her in the back of the police car. She was later released to her mother, so she was never arrested nor charged.

I know you have stated prior that the teachers should have separated her, well that obviously didn't work, now what should they have done instead of calling the police that would have resulted in her calming down while not harming herself, others, or doing more damage to the school?

And for those just commenting about race. Please, give it a rest. This is about behavior, not color.

I don't believe that no con... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

I don't believe that no contact whatsoever is allowed, I think the law has been quoted to the letter in order to attempt to disguise the ineptitude of the teachers. Why couldn't a member of staff take the child to her mother? Why didn't the police simply take her to the car and sit in the back of it with her? Why hasn't the girl had the required care before the incident? We could go on and on about the why's and the possible other solutions forever Mike. The reason for that is that almost any other action would have been better than handcuffing a 5 year old girls hands behind her back....the point Im making is that alone....the people who are charged with caring for that little girl let themselves and everyone else down with their choice of action. The way the teachers panicked as they tried to deal with her (and they were panicking) tells me that they didn't have a clue what to do and as proffesionals they should have but ok mistakes happen in any job. The hancuffing bit is simply indefensible.

Give up Mike. Commonsense, ... (Below threshold)
Conservative American:

Give up Mike. Commonsense, rational, and logical arguments don't work with liberal types. They only understand "feelings". Seeing a little girl in handcuffs causes them bad "feelings" a thinking person can look at the situation and think "I see them putting that small child in handcuffs hmmm that's not right", "However they are not hurting her physically, or mentally and this might even get the point across so I see no harm in it".

Try this:
Neil... Neil... look at me Neil. It makes me sad when you come up with illogical arguments. I think you are feeling sad about this too. Wouldn't you feel happy if you knew in the long run she would be a better person if she behaves and doesn't break things or hurt people.

Neil... Listen to me Neil. It makes people sad and angry when you call them names without justification. Don't you want to be nice to people? You need to open your mind to other idea's Neil. Neil! get off the table. Neil! listen to me stomping your feet isn't nice. Neil! please don't break things.

AAAGGGHHH! I can't do it any more I can feel my Spine turning to rubber and my brain turning to mush.

Neil!!! Put that down. Neil! Dammit where's my cattle prod!

Neil said:"I don't... (Below threshold)
fatman:

Neil said:

"I don't believe that no contact whatsoever is allowed."

Believe it, Neil. In the litigious society we live in, almost any action can get you sued under the right (or wrong) circumstances. Particularly the laying of hands on a child. If you don't believe me, go back and re-read some of the posts urging the mother to do just that.

As for the race card being played, the only thing about that that suprises me is that it took as long as it did for someone to do it.

all of you shut the fuck... (Below threshold)
jeez:

all of you shut the fuck up except for janel and ruth i agree with them yall bitches only stick with the whites. if that girl was white they would just give her a lolypop and say calm down its ok

Thank you, jeez, for provin... (Below threshold)
fatman:

Thank you, jeez, for proving my point better than anything I could say ever could.

BRA...VO!... (Below threshold)
Little Boy:

BRA...VO!

Bravo... (Below threshold)
Little Boy:

Bravo

i am aware of the compensat... (Below threshold)
neil shone:

i am aware of the compensation culture in th USA...it's starting in the UK as well unfortunately...and I don't doubt that its had a part to play in the incident....but there was still no need to handcuff the 5 year old girl like that.

besides greedy adults have ... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

besides greedy adults have bred that into your society....not 5 year olds. I eagerly await the outcome of the investigations. Would they dare do the same as they did with those police who battered a poor defensless blackman with batons. Soon changed when it got a bit rough though didn't it. This will be the same....best of luck.

One last time, Neil, then I... (Below threshold)
fatman:

One last time, Neil, then I'm giving up. The girl was engaged in the type of behavior that had already led to property damage and could very easily have led to personal injury. The fact that she ceased this behavior when she saw the police is irrelevant. She had displayed a propensity for violence and had to be treated accordingly.

As for your earlier suggestions:

"why couldn't a member of staff take the child to her mother?"

Probably because if an auto accident had occurred enroute, the staff member would have been personally liable for any damages. And a moving car with a screaming, kicking, punching five year old in it is an accident waiting to happen. And if the staff member had gotten the girl to her mother, the mother might have starting screaming child abuse or even sexual assault.

"why couldn't the police simply take her to the car and sit in the back of it with her?"

Actually, that's what they DID do. They just restrained her first to make sure she couldn't hurt anybody (especially herself).

"Why hasn't the girl had the required care before the incident?"

Impossible for any of us to know for certain at this distance, but based on the mother's actions and reactions--she refused permission for the school to restrain her daughter when she became violent, she refused to come in to school to deal with her daughter after (I believe) being warned that the police would be called, and she told an sptimes reporter that, quote: "they set my baby up" referring to the video camera. The reporter noted that while he interviewed the mother, the "baby" was laughing and riding a bicycle in the apartment, while the girl's younger brother was climbing up on furniture to swat at light fixtures. I suspect that the mother either doesn't have a clue as to how to raise children or else she just doesn't care.

Excuse after excuse after e... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

Excuse after excuse after excuse for the failings of the inadequate. You should've given up ages ago because you can't excuse the unexcusable.

It's you that doesn't have the answers....the reason? there aren't any answers. There can be no justification in handcuffing the hands of a 5 year old behind her back.

You seem disappointed at the thought that the child might be able to smile again. Why? from what i heard from some on here the actions of the police were exactly what was needed to sort the child out.

You're even trying to bring another child into the equation now...don't tell me...this mother is the only mother in the whole neighbourhood who has kids that can be a bit of a handfull at times right? if this is not the case are the police going to handcuff them all? tell you what...handcuff them altogether until nobody can laugh anymore. LMAO.

Handcuffing babies is wrong, it's cruel, it's a failure in itself. how do you expect children to succeed when they see adults failing to this extent? No wonder they laugh.

The adults around this litt... (Below threshold)
Look Deeper:

The adults around this little 5 yr old girl failed to have an adequate plan to address her behaviors...we wouldn't be discussing this issue if they had simply developed and agreed on a plan, had it in writing and followed it (and I doubt that the plan would have included handcuffs!) Whether her behaviors were due to neurological reasons or, as most people here and on other boards have suggested, were simply a result of inadequate discipline in her home... the adults failed to have a plan and it resulted in abuse. Handcuffing a 5 year old is...no question about it... abuse.

When the mother told school officials that were not allowed to touch her daughter, the school was responsible at that point to require that they meet to develop an alternative plan.

When my son has a meltdown at school he is escorted to a room that is set up for this purpose...a "low sensory" environment that is free of clutter. The teacher usually gets down to his eye level (usually sitting in a child size chair) but she keeps her distance and speaks in controlled, simple, calm words. He is not "shadowed" like this little girl was...that would only increase his frustration. (Picture yourself having an argument with your spouse where he/she won't "back off" but repeatedly gets in your space telling you how "inappropriate" you are!)

We are expecting the child to be responsible for her behavior...to calm herself down despite having adults around her who are escalating her frustration, to react appropriately no matter what her neurological condition or behavioral need, but we do not want to hold the adults around her responsible for their failure to adequately plan for this situation?!

Absolutely correct Look Dee... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

Absolutely correct Look Deeper. If one good thing can come out of this it is that the ignorant may learn something. Personally I think that is better than any amount of compensation in the long run.

the adults failed to hav... (Below threshold)
Mike:

the adults failed to have a plan and it resulted in abuse. Handcuffing a 5 year old is...no question about it... abuse

Bullshit!! This was not abuse, no where near it. The cops treated her with kid gloves. The cops did what they needed to do in order to safely take this child away and hold her until her reluctant mother came to get her.

When the mother told school officials that were not allowed to touch her daughter, the school was responsible at that point to require that they meet to develop an alternative plan.

More bullshit. The school, at that point, should have told the mother to take her kid to another special needs school. Our public schools should be able to set the policy, not individual parents.

When my son has a meltdown at school he is escorted to a room that is set up for this purpose...a "low sensory" environment that is free of clutter. The teacher usually gets down to his eye level (usually sitting in a child size chair) but she keeps her distance and speaks in controlled, simple, calm words. He is not "shadowed" like this little girl was...that would only increase his frustration. (Picture yourself having an argument with your spouse where he/she won't "back off" but repeatedly gets in your space telling you how "inappropriate" you are!)

Is this a public school? No public schools where I grew up or where I live now have these rooms. Schools are always complaining about lack of funding, but they can build these special rooms to accomodate a miniscule percentage of unruly kids at the expense of the others. And this girl wasn't shadowed, the teachers were trying their best to stop her destructive rampage while not touching her because they couldn't!

We are expecting the child to be responsible for her behavior...to calm herself down despite having adults around her who are escalating her frustration, to react appropriately no matter what her neurological condition or behavioral need, but we do not want to hold the adults around her responsible for their failure to adequately plan for this situation?!

More crap, I hold the mother just as responsible for not getting to the school immediately. And for having the audacity to place a no touch order on the school and then instead of apologizing for her daughter and then trying to set up a plan, she decided to get a lawyer and sue the school and police. If you folks crying about this can't see the disconnect this mother has with reality, then there is no hope for you.

Neil, the ignorant one is the one who looks at these videotapes (knowing the situation the school is in), sees the destruction and chaos this girl causes, and then claims abuse when the police are forced to deal with situation.

Handcuffing a 5 year old is... (Below threshold)
Look Deeper:

Handcuffing a 5 year old is not abuse?! I was a foster parent for 17 years and we were given strict guidelines on what was and was not allowed for restraint purposes. If a child required some kind of restraint because he became injurious to self or others, we were allowed to do a basket hold, but we had to have training on how to properly do this hold as well as written permission from a therapist and social worker to do it. God help the foster parent who would ask a police officer to slap the cuffs on a foster child!! (I would also like to add that the meltdowns that parents of children with FASD or RAD typically see are far beyond what this little girl was doing.)

Mike, I don't disagree with you that the school should have told the parent to take her child elsewhere if she were demanding that the child not be touched. That is actually the point I was trying to make...the parent made a demand that was limiting the school's ability to care for the child...of course you need to touch a child if you are caring for him/her...but they apparently didn't address this before the crisis! If the mom had been required to sit down with them and come up with a plan and put it in writing, she would have no cause to sue if the school then followed the plan. If her plan was that she be called when her child acted up she would have had to state that she would be responsible to be there within so many minutes. The school could then ask her to document how she would like them to handle the child until she got there and what to do if she could not be reached. If this plan was not acceptable to school officials they could address the concerns at that time or bring their concerns to CPS.

Mike, the school room that is used in our case is a small classroom called the student support center and it is in a public school. Kids with DSI (dysfunction of sensory integration) use it as well as students who need help with behaviors. It is merely an undecorated small classroom...no big expense. And...if you can accurately remember "the good old days" before the IDEA law was established, children with disabilities that presented themselves primarily in behaviors (autism, FASD, RAD, ODD, bi-polar disorder and other mental illnesses) or those with mental retardation were simply denied an education and placed in institutions. Nice for the neuro-typical kids in a classroom, but was it right?!

These boards are full of people saying that the child needs to learn how to be responsible and act appropriately...true...but she is a child and the ones who are responsible to care for her and teach her these skills are the adults around her- including mom. We cannot allow adults to become frustrated and start handcuffing kids...handcuffs are for criminals, not Kindergarteners. Daycares are full of tantruming 2 year olds...where do we draw the line?!


Look Deeper,I can ... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Look Deeper,

I can understand your arguments and you make some valid points. One thing you said:
If a child required some kind of restraint because he became injurious to self or others, we were allowed to do a basket hold, but we had to have training on how to properly do this hold as well as written permission from a therapist and social worker to do it.

That makes sense because if you as a parent or the school placed the kid in handcuffs then yes that would be abuse, plain and simple, but the police are trained in this procedure. They place people (and that would include children) in handcuffs for their protection as well as the person being restrained. I can't imagine the uproar if the cops didn't restrain her and she went ballistic again and did something even more outrageous.

Bottom line, the police handcuffed this girl as a scare tactic because this girl obviously does not respond to any other authority as does the mom since the school was not allowed to lay a hand on this disruptive child. Of course given the mother's warped sense of responsibility the scare tactic will now be viewed by the child as wrong by another authority figure, so she will have learned that she can still get away with anything without proper punishment.

I agree with you about the plan to handle this girl, but that would require participation and deferrance of authority from the mother. The school should not be restricte from touching (not hitting or hurting) or restraining an unruly child, that is absurd.

I must say I am unfamiliar with the IDEA law. I just don't remember having these rooms nor do I remember having so many kids in school with these problems. I have an infant daughter so I have time until I need to make choices about her schooling.

And again, I think this was more than a tantrum.

I dont recall you saying wh... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone a caring human:

I dont recall you saying whether or not you have kids of your own Mike. I personally dont think you do...I bloody hope not anyway!! Look Deeper...at the end of the day the case will be decided by fair, knowledgable people (hopefully) and the decision will be in line with what 99% of the population feel, that it was cruel and wrong. my feeling is that the police officers in question have no children either... again, I hope not anyway. Anyone that sees this as a suitable way to teach a baby should not be let anywhere near children.

I definately finnish here....good luck and take care. Look Deeper .. carry on teaching, Mike and the adults in the video .. start learning.

I dont recall you saying... (Below threshold)
Mike:

I dont recall you saying whether or not you have kids of your own Mike. I personally dont think you do...I bloody hope not anyway!!

You know something Neil, go fuck yourself! Take your ego, your condescending attitude, your feelings, your degrees, your tears and shove them up your arrogant ass. My child will be given more love, understanding, and freedom than you can comprehend. You personally don't know anything about me. And you definitely don't know anything about my life and my ability to raise a child.

There is one thing I will never be called and that is a bad father. My wife and I just had a daughter and we will have more. And I guarantee people will look at me as an example of good parenting. I can't guarantee that my children won't have problems, but I can assure you that I will be there to help them when they do.

That comment has set me off, until now I put up with your insults and attacks and tried to address you civily, but you don't deserve it. You're an arrogant prick and I feel sorry for those that have to put up with you.

You know something Neil, go... (Below threshold)
Mike:

You know something Neil, go fuck yourself! Take your ego, your condescending attitude, your feelings, your degrees, your tears and shove them up your arrogant ass. My child will be given more love, understanding, and freedom than you can comprehend. You personally don't know anything about me. And you definitely don't know anything about my life and my ability to raise a child.

There is one thing I will never be called and that is a bad father. My wife and I just had a daughter and we will have more. And I guarantee people will look at me as an example of good parenting. I can't guarantee that my children won't have problems, but I can assure you that I will be there to help them when they do.

That comment has set me off, until now I put up with your insults and attacks and tried to address you civily, but you don't deserve it. You're an arrogant prick and I feel sorry for those that have to put up with you. Caring human my ass!

I won't pretend to know mor... (Below threshold)
Skye:

I won't pretend to know more than I do about this, but from what I understand teachers are now starting to carry liability insurance. It's supposed to operate like malpractice insurance for doctors. Does this seem ridiculous to anyone else? Our teachers now require insurance to protect them from the threat that spoiled, ill-bred, problem-causing, and "the customer is always right"-attitude that children/adolescents have today??? I'm no ultra-conservative, but this is seriously twisted.
And, this 5 yr. old is "traumatized"??? Please! What is that kid's life going to be like 20 years down the road when she realizes that the reason her life is to terrible is because her parents didn't care enough to raise her right? How's that going to affect her? She'll need therapy for a long time to come to terms with that one!

Sorry about the double post... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Sorry about the double post, computer kept getting an error message and I thought I lost it. Now my anger is posted twice and Neil is still an arrogant schmuck.

We have to remember ... (Below threshold)
Anna:


We have to remember the parent's and school official's no longer have authority over our kids these days. With new child protection laws out there this makes it impossible for the parent, and the educator to physically restrain children as we perviously did. These new law's "thanks to Child Protection Agencys' and these so called talk to your child make them take a time out Phyco Therapist make it hard on the parent and harder on the teacher's. Who are we to judge, we don't know the entire sistuaton or story behind this little girl. And what truly happened we only saw 25 min of a video clip that was probably tammpered with. In no way was this to happen to a 5 year old. In my Opinion she look like she was a problem child that needed to be in a sepcialized class.

In 5 years time mike you'll... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

In 5 years time mike you'll look back on this case and see what a schmuck you've been with your radical views. I see your prepared to give your child more love, freedom and understanding that i can comprehend Mike. Strange that I would've given the child in the video more of all of these things than you would have. Indeed you see nothing wrong in handcuffing her do you Mike.

Well in that case then you think that your child deserves far more love and understanding than the little girl in the video obviously. Mike, are you sure that you are not just a racist pig? do you think that handcuffing is ok for black kids? Would you not be a tad annoyed if the cops brought your child from Kindergarten with it's hands cuffed behind its back because of a tantrum? (perhaps caused by having too much freedom at home?). Mike speak to Look Deeper some more; you are going to learn whether you like it or not since you have a child that will soon reach this age, however it'll save you a lot of heartache if you listen to someone now.

Just thinking of you that's all.

No Neil, you're thinking of... (Below threshold)
fatman:

No Neil, you're thinking of yourself and how you can get the last word in. You're an effete, elitist snob and a prime example of why the sun DOES set on the British Empire these days.

No I'm not.... (Below threshold)
Neil shone:

No I'm not.

Thank you, Neil. You just p... (Below threshold)
fatman:

Thank you, Neil. You just proved my point better than anything else I could have said. Now, I have to go to work, so TTFN.

Oh Neil how clever of you w... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Oh Neil how clever of you with the little post there, dork.

You know something Neil, I waited a long time before hurling insults at you and that was only because you set me off with a reference to me not having kids. I am a very proud dad and when you insult that I will go off on you. Let's go over your last post:

Strange that I would've given the child in the video more of all of these things than you would have.

Let's cut with the sanctimonious crap shall we? You're such a humanitarian /sarcasm. This is an idiotic comparison, punishing someone for their actions does not mean you don't love them.

Well in that case then you think that your child deserves far more love and understanding than the little girl in the video obviously.

Where did I ever say that. You are so annoyingly arrogant. Do you always take someone's statement and just expand upon it so it fits your view of those that disagree with you? If this girl received any of those things from her mother she wouldn't have been in this situation in the first place.
Mike, are you sure that you are not just a racist pig?

You're the one making this a racial issue, not me, so who's the racist? And let's see, you've called me a prick, a fat pedophile and child abuser, and now a racist. Big words for someone typing at a computer to someone he doesn't even know. Again, you resort to these attacks because your arguments don't stand up to logic.

Would you not be a tad annoyed if the cops brought your child from Kindergarten with it's hands cuffed behind its back because of a tantrum? (perhaps caused by having too much freedom at home?).

Of course I would, but it wouldn't be at the police, I can assure you of that. And naturally, I wouldn't be telling the school that I couldn't come right away either, so I don't think I have to worry about facing that situation.

Let's face it Neil, you're nothing but a pompous jack-ass. I don't need you thinking about me OK, I'm doing just fine.

This busy woman is now goin... (Below threshold)
Look Deeper:

This busy woman is now going to back out of this discussion and leave it between you gentlemen. I appreciate that you both were respectful toward me each time you posted, even if you disagreed with my view.

One final thought...there are currently 532,000 children in foster care in the United States. 130,000 of these children cannot safely return to their birth families and are waiting to be adopted. 19,000 children "age out" of foster care each year without a family. We can sit and talk about the problems in this country (or world!) all day long...or we can do something about it. Gotta go...play nice! ~Look Deeper

Okay then bye look deeper..... (Below threshold)
Neil shone:

Okay then bye look deeper....see ya mike.

PS my gran said if you handcuff everyone you love she's up for a date.

I've listened to the office... (Below threshold)
Robyn:

I've listened to the officer saying "Remember me?" over & over again & what I hear is:
"I'm the one you told your mom (to) put handcuffs on you" It sounds like this cop has been with this family before & the little girl taunted the police in past to put handcuffs on her. And to her mother! You know, like "Go ahead tell them to put handcuffs on me" Be careful what you wish for little girl...

Neil I thought you were lea... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Neil I thought you were leaving hours ago. Just go away and bask in your over inflated self worth as the world goes round without you.

okay mike... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

okay mike

Robyn said (quoting the pol... (Below threshold)
fatman:

Robyn said (quoting the police officer):

"I'm the one you told your your mom (to) put handcuffs on you."

I think you need to delete that (to). I think the officer was saying that the girl had accused him (to her mother) of handcuffing her before.

At least that's what it sounded like to me.

When I was in High School a... (Below threshold)
kevin:

When I was in High School and kids would get into fights teachers physically intervened and they were never sued. The students involved would get sent to the priciples office and receive detention or whatever. The police were never called in. Of coarse that wasn't in Fla. Teachers afraid of a five year girl - I don't ever remember being intimated by a five year old - even when I was a five year old. If these teachers are so frieghtened by a five year girl doing what all five year olds do, then they should be collecting unemployment.

Kevin you are basically rig... (Below threshold)
Neil shone:

Kevin you are basically right my friend. however, my feeling is that this girl is VERY intelligent and has given the teachers the runaround; they can't handle this so they have played the situation along....video'd it and maximised it's impact....remember...they know what gets this girl going...handy to have a camera there wasn't it (the reasons they give for having a cam there are bullshit...did they have permision off the parents to video their children?). then they call the police..... how many police officers work in that area? Sounds like a set up to me if they find the ones that have a beef either with the mother or with the child in the first place.

Thing is though... it's all gone wrong for them and i think it's serious. I think heads should roll and i think jail should not be ruled out for the officers. Who knows who in this case.... somewhere down the line the teachers (or some of them) have a contact with the police. It's a disgrace and hopefully, whereas the authorities involved have been trying to make an example of this little one and her family, it will be the inadequate so called proffesionals that are going to be shown as what they are.

See... "Feelings" not "Thou... (Below threshold)
Little Boy:

See... "Feelings" not "Thought".

I feel therefore I am.... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

I feel therefore I am.

Where there is no feeling there is no sense. If you can remain conscious without ever triggering your conscience you are a psychopath.

Back again hey Neil. Just ... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Back again hey Neil. Just can't keep away, even when someone lets you get the last word. I think you have a problem.

I think heads should roll and i think jail should not be ruled out for the officers.

And what would you charge them with? Doing their job? You're an idiot.

Where there is no feeling there is no sense. If you can remain conscious without ever triggering your conscience you are a psychopath.

Wow, how insightful. I'm just glad your opinions mean nothing here, I feel sorry for those in England who suffer around your pyschobabble.

Dont like it when someone h... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

Dont like it when someone has the answers for you do you Mike. first of all I'm not English. Secondly I think you'll find many of the present day psychologists are American and these have followed up the lead from prominent Europeans. that being the case....how do you figure that our opinions mean nothing in the USA Mike?

You really are silly.

I see what's going on here.... (Below threshold)
Monty Python:

I see what's going on here. We're not using the Kings English.

Here let me try talking to Mike... Ahem!

Shut your festering gob, you tit! Your type really makes me puke, you vacuous, coffee-nosed, maloderous, pervert!!!

what! what!

I will now Invoke Godwin and end this useless discussion (http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/).

Mike you are Hitler, and a NAZI Facist who wants to force his twisted views on other people.
You're still upset because we saved your limey ass in WWII.

There NYAH! Discussion over everyone go home!

Terribly sorry Mike I meant... (Below threshold)
Monty Python:

Terribly sorry Mike I meant that For Neil.
Once I again I apologize.

I thought you weren't conce... (Below threshold)
fatman:

I thought you weren't concerned with getting the last word, Neil.

I'm not.... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

I'm not.

Yes he IS.... (Below threshold)
Anti Neil:

Yes he IS.

It's simpmle Neil, you are ... (Below threshold)
Mike:

It's simpmle Neil, you are not American, so when it comes to how we handle things over here, your opinions mean nothing, zero, zilch.

Only the opinions of Americans matter really. They are the only ones who can change things. So, thanfully, we don't have to worry about pussy apologists like yourself deeming these cops unworthy of upholding our laws.

And I don't care where American pychologists are learning from. I don't particularly care for the lot anyway. I feel they do too much over analyzing and seem to make up classifications and disorders.

Dont like it when someone has the answers for you do you Mike.

You call what you have written answers???? Now who's being silly.

Bravo!Brilliant!<br ... (Below threshold)
Dr. Freud:

Bravo!
Brilliant!

Why did you come cap-in-han... (Below threshold)
Neil shone:

Why did you come cap-in-hand to the UK to let your planes take off to go after gadafi? Why did (sorry DO) you need us to back you up in the Gulf. Why did you not join WW2 until the japs were onto you and why at that point did you need to use OUR country as a base from which to launch your attacks.

Why are you so reliant on Australia for your forces....where would you be without them (by the way...they are British).

Why do you think it's ok to handcuff 5 year olds?
Is it because there was nobody british about to help you?

Why did Neville Chamberlain... (Below threshold)
Anti Neil:

Why did Neville Chamberlain let Hitler have the Sudetanland of Czechoslovakia?
Why did Neville Chamberlain believe Hitler when he proclaimed "peace in our time"?
Why did you attempt your attack at Dunkirk without our help?
Why On Sunday, February 15, 1942, Did British Lieutenant General A.E. Percival, with moustache and rabbit teeth, surrendered Singapore, reputedly the world's most impregnable bastion, and over 100,000 troops to a motley force of Japanese of little more than half that number (62,200) under General Yamashita?
Why did you pussies do all your bombing at night while we bombed during the day?
How come English women preferred American men during WWII?
Why do you eat chip butties?
Why do you call it a bumbershoot?
Why do you drive on the wrong side of the road?
Why do you still have a monarchy?
Why do they keep the Raven's from leaving the white tower?
How come your women don't douche?
Why do you all have bad teeth?
What’s that you're doing behind the bedstead?
What happened to your "empire"?
Who found the Titanic?
Who didn't put enough lifeboats on same?
How did a little upstart colony whip your ass?
How come the silly party never won, and who could tell the difference?
Who should have kept their nose out of the Holy land?
How come the 1998 2 pound coin honoring british industry has an array of gears on it that can’t possibly work?
Who's keeping the terrorists busy so they don't blow your ass up?

Actually, in the interest o... (Below threshold)
fatman:

Actually, in the interest of accuracy, the British didn't attack at Dunkirk: that's where they retreated to after Hitler chased them out of the rest of France. I do, however, have a few questions of my own. To wit:

Why didn't the British intervene when Hitler re-militarized the Rhineland?

Why didn't the British intervene when Hitler provided logistical and tactical support (Luftwaffe squadrons) to the fascists in Spain?

Why did former P.M. David Lloyd-George say of Hitler, after meeting with him, "This is a man with whom we can do business? (paraphrasing)

Why didn't the British intervene when Hitler committed massive vote fraud to ensure his successful annexation of Austria?

Why didn't the British intervene when Hitler, after claiming that the Sudetenland would be his last demand, invaded and occupied the rest of Czechoslovakia?

Why didn't Britain insist on invading Germany during Hitler's invasion of Poland, when Germany's western border was being guarded by second rate troops with obsolete equipment?

Why did Britain ignore an offer, relayed through the Vatican, by the German High Command, to remove Hitler from power if the Allies would agree to not to attack while they were doing it?

Why was Britain's response to Hitler's invasion of Norway so pitifully ineffectual.

Just asking.

And by the way, what the he... (Below threshold)
fatman:

And by the way, what the hell is a chip buttie, anyway?

And why do I get the feelin... (Below threshold)
fatman:

And why do I get the feeling that Neil Shone is a pitiful little wanker who keeps posting outrageous comments just to keep this thread going so he'll have something to fill his empty, meaningless life?

How to make a chip buttie (... (Below threshold)
Anti Neil:

How to make a chip buttie (butty):
Take 2 slices of bread slather butter on them.
Place a large amount af fresh hot chips (freedom fries) in between.
Eat.
Have heart attack.

Thank you, Anti Neil. I've ... (Below threshold)
fatman:

Thank you, Anti Neil. I've got to try that one. A short life and a merry one, that's what I always say.

Why is 1 man taking the pis... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

Why is 1 man taking the piss out of America and why can't you find him?

Why do you handcuff 5 year olds?

Why do you bully prisoners and degrade them?

Why do you lock people up without charge?

Why did you decide to remove a whole people from their land and fill it with Jews only to cause instability throughout the whole world?

Why do you handcuff 5-year old little girls?

Why did you ship over thousands of black slaves only to eventually become so afraid of their superior abilities you torture, murder, discriminate against them in order to keep them down?

How did you manage to lose a war against a third world country?

Why did your soldiers all go bonkers when they realised they would fight back?

Why do you keep shooting the people who are on your side?

Why are you all so fat?

Why do you insist that you were such a massive help in WW2?

Why did you drop 2 atom bombs on cities full of kids?

why did you burn the skin of kids' bodies with Napalm?

Why do you handcuff kids for no reason?

Why did you shit yourselves when Castro decided he wasn't scared of you?

Why did you do what the Russians wanted?

Why can you never admit to your mistakes?

Why do you have to be extremely wealthy to stand for president in your excuse for a democracy?

Why did someone leave a tile loose on the shuttle?

Why have you had 2 Welsh presidents?

Why do you handcuff little 5-year-old girls?

Finding him won't stop terr... (Below threshold)
Anti Neil:

Finding him won't stop terrorism. He insites more terrorists. More terrorists = more terrorists to kill (bonus).

Because they are misbehaving brats what deserve it.

Duh... They're Terrorist Prisoners! Oh no!! we put womens underwear on their head. THEY CHOP OFF HEADS!!

Why not?

Why do you hate the Jews?

See answer 2.

The only 2 groups of people keeping the black man down these days are:
Democratic liberals
The black man

A liberal was running the country.

Bonkers? whatever.

I'll ask the same of you?

We have teeth to chew with and so can eat.

Duh!! Who defeated Germany, Italy, and Japan (practically by ourselves)?

Because the kids would have gladly killed us when we landed, to kick their asses in a war they started.

Same Reason.

Once again see answer 2.

Again Liberal in the white house.

Do what the Russians wanted?

You have to make a mistake to admit to it.

Generally people who are ambitious tend to be rich where as people who are poor tend to not be. I used to be poor but decided it sucked. So with no help from the Government I got to where I am today. I don't think I'm rich. But the Governement does. I would call myself middle class. I have a brother who thinks the world owes him a living. guess what? HE'S POOR!

Jeez do some research.

Oh please!

Once again see answer 2.

One more question for you?

How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?

Now answer our questions.

One more answer in regards ... (Below threshold)
Anti Neil:

One more answer in regards to question 5.

If the "crusaders" (read: drunken, smelly, supposedly religious, soccer fan types) had stayed away from the holy land in the first place we might not have ever had this problem.

http://historymedren.about.com/library/weekly/aa101397.htm
"At the Council of Clermont in November of 1095, Pope Urban II made a speech that literally changed the course of history. In it, he stated that the Turks had not only invaded Christian lands but had visited unspeakable atrocities on Christians (of which, according to Robert the Monk's account, he spoke in great detail). This was absolutely false, but it was just the beginning."

and more

"Urban's speech set in action a deadly chain of events that would continue for several hundred years, the repercussions of which are still felt today. Not only was the first crusade followed by six other formally numbered crusades and many other forays, but the entire relationship between Europe and the eastern lands was irreparably altered. Crusaders did not limit their violence to Turks, nor did they readily distinguish among any groups not obviously Christian. Constantinople itself, at that time still a Christian city, was attacked by members of the fourth crusade in 1204, thanks to ambitious Venetian merchants."

and who were the crusaders? yes Neil.... No Not the American's, they weren't around then. Fatman??? Correct the English. Snotty nosed gits what poke their noses into everything.

As you can tell Godwin is still in effect.

neil shoneSomeone ... (Below threshold)
curious:

neil shone

Someone asked earlier:
How come your women don't douche?

I've also heard that. Why don't they?

You fat prick lol. "because... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

You fat prick lol. "because they're misbehaving prats and they deserve it"????

At last a straight answer....a pile of shite though like the rest of your twaddle.

Curious....here's your straight answer.

Our women are cleaner because they are not big fat fuckers who are constantly having to shit out excess big macs.

neil shoneCould th... (Below threshold)
curious:

neil shone

Could this possibly explain how you turned out to be such a screwed up individual?

neilWomen aren't s... (Below threshold)
curious:

neil

Women aren't supposed to douche their butt.
You really are screwed up!

neilAfter reading ... (Below threshold)
curious:

neil

After reading your earlier post, and the fact that you think women douche their butt, I would venture to guess you age to be about 15 yrs..

Had you grown up in the USA, that guess would have been much lower.
Girls here are taught about personal hygiene.

Neil? Are you still th... (Below threshold)
curious:

Neil? Are you still there?
It's been over 1hr. since I asked my last question. You have yet to answer. I'm just curious.

Neil? Are you still th... (Below threshold)
curious:

Neil? Are you still there?
It's been over 1hr. since I asked my last question. You have yet to answer. I'm just curious.

Well? Tell us neil. How ol... (Below threshold)
curious:

Well? Tell us neil. How old are you?

I think you're right. I thi... (Below threshold)
Anti Neil:

I think you're right. I think neil is 15 years old or less. I think He's one of those foul mouthed, misbehaving little brats, and he (benefit of the doubt here) is afraid this will happen to him/her.

The thing that made me think he is one of these hate filled liberals is that in his first post he just goes "bonkers" on people he knows nothing about.

I mean look at this quote from him/her.

"Anyone who even suggests that this is the action of a group of civilised human beings is obviously a member of their peadofile ring. It's perverse digusting and pathetic. If the teachers involved are not sacked immediately and the police officers not jailed then I call on any decent american to destroy this excuse for a school. I hope this does not only require the attention of the black community...the white community should also show their disgrace. May lightening strike the three sick police bullies and may they burn eternally in hell....joined by the rest of you cowards who believe in the abuse of 5-year-olds. By the way....tell them to read Piaget....kids are not ready for maths at 5. Thick fuckers. If anybody would be good enough to give me a contact number for the school and the police station I would greatly appreciate it.

Posted by: Neil Shone at April 24, 2005 06:20 PM"

So we are to conclude that the officers, teachers, and principals are pedophiles, and perverts, and the School should be destroyed.

That'll teach them.

Look at the logic here:
Handcuff little girl - bad.
Destroy school and kill teachers, principal, and cops - good.

Piaget? I'm guessing he means Jean Piaget who died in 1960.

One thing is Certain not one person who posted on this site believes in the abuse of small children.

This child was NOT abused (at least not by the school or the police). In fact everything I saw in the video showed massive restraint.

Neil IF you really are and adult and really DO have children I fear for them because one day you're going to lose it and treat them like you do the people on this site, or they'll grow up to be Ned Flanders types and go postal without warning.

Now lets see what creative cursing from neil my post will engender.

Neil "engender" means bring into existence.

Actually, my guess is that ... (Below threshold)
fatman:

Actually, my guess is that Neil is probably in his forties or early fifties. He lives with his mum, has never married and is still a virgin. He more than likely has poor personal hygiene habits and may be fat. He probably fixates on VERY young girls because he's afraid to approach women his own age. His only sexual release comes from visting porno sites and jerking off. Most people pass him on the street without even noticing him, and those that do are repelled by the sight of him (particularly women).

Keeping this thread going with his bile-filled screeds is the only enjoyment he has these days; the porno sites only give him physical release, not real enjoyment. I would hate to see him lose the only bit of real pleasure in his sad, sorry life. Besides, it's so much fun to (verbally) whale the tar out of him when he shows up.

Thus endeth the VERY amateur psych profile.

LOL!!Fatman..<br /... (Below threshold)
curious:

LOL!!

Fatman..
That was the funniest damn post I've ever read!

LOL!!

The fact is guys that by yo... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

The fact is guys that by your own admission you see nothing wrong with abusing little five year old girls. You've admitted it right through this thread. You are sick perverts and you've admitted as much. No wonder your female soldiers have grown up with no morals and no feelings, PROBABLY BEEN ABUSED ALL THEIR LIVES.

Look, it's not my fault that all of your mature women are fat and ugly; neither is it the fault of the little one in the video. It's caused by the fact that you are a spoilt, fat, greedy selfish, cowardly nation who play the big shot then cry like babies when things dont go your way.

You had your butts kicked in Vietnam....your getting them kicked again in Iraq. Your president is a coward who's rich daddy helped him avoid going to war. You've tried to bully smaller, poorer nations but you can't manage it; you try to bully the minorities in your own country...can't manage that either. So now you start on the five year olds.....better start recruiting more police if it takes three to each child LMAO.

By the way....you telling me your women don't wash their butts????? eeeuuuurrrrgghhh.

HEY!!! WELCOME BACK, NEIL!!... (Below threshold)
fatman:

HEY!!! WELCOME BACK, NEIL!!! We thought we had lost you.

Unfinished business first:

The reason there are British troops in Iraq is because it was the British who created the (then) kingdom of Iraq and got us into this mess. Britain was also responsible for the dividing up of Palestine into Jewish and Arab conclaves, the fore runner of modern Israel (see Balfour Declaration), an attempt to secure Britain's oil supply lines.

If you don't know the answer(s) to my pop quiz about Britain's pre-WWII behavior (there's only one), I'll give it to you; no backbone. Or as Chuck Jones would say (in faux Latin): Lackuvus Spinabus. A trait you seem to have inherited.

Current business: Just who came closer to figuring you out, curious or me? Enquiring minds want to know!

Of all the snide comments in your latest hate-and- jealousy filled diatribe, the only one that comes close to being right is the one about Vietnam. And 'nam is a textbook example of why you should never let a liberal run a war. As for Iraq, how can we be getting our asses kicked with all those Brits there to protect us?

And Neil: once again, with feeling; women WASH their BUTTS. They DOUCHE their VAGINAS (except, of course, British women, which is why cunnilingus has never caught on in Britain).

Before you worry about the ... (Below threshold)
Anti Neil:

Before you worry about the splinter in America's eye get rid of that plank in yours.

From: www.nspcc.org.uk/html/home/whatwedo/childabuseinbritain.htm
Child Abuse in Britain
Facts and Figures about Child Abuse

• NSPCC research shows that a significant minority of children suffer serious abuse or neglect:

* 7% of children experienced serious physical abuse at the hands of their parents or carers during childhood.
* 1% of children experienced sexual abuse by a parent or carer and another 3% by another relative during childhood. 11% of children experienced sexual abuse by people known but unrelated to them. 5% of children experienced sexual abuse by an adult stranger or someone they had just met.
* 6% of children experienced serious absence of care at home during childhood.
* 6% of children experienced frequent and severe emotional maltreatment during childhood.
i

• 16% of children experienced serious maltreatment by parents, of whom one third experienced more than one type of maltreatment.ii

• Latest available figures show that there are 32,700 children on child protection registers in the UK as at 31st March 2003.iii

• Nearly 79,000 children are currently looked after by local authorities in the UK.iv

• Every week in England and Wales one to two children will die following cruelty.v

• There are on average 80 child homicides recorded in England and Wales each year.vi

• On average one child is killed by their parent or carer every week in England and Wales.vii

• The people most likely to die a violent death are babies under 1 year old, who are four times more likely to be killed than the average person in England and Wales.viii

• Three-quarters of sexually abused children did not tell anyone about the abuse at the time, and around a third still had not told anyone about their experience(s) by early adulthood.ix

• Over a quarter of all rapes recorded by the police are committed against children under 16 years of age.x

• 31% of children experienced bullying during childhood, a further 7% were discriminated against and 14% were made to feel different/an outsider. 43% experienced at least one of these things during childhood.xi

• NSPCC teams and Helplines accepted over 24,000 requests for help in 2003-4.xii

• The National Commission of Inquiry into the Prevention of Child Abuse estimated that the cost of child abuse to statutory and voluntary agencies is £1 billion per year in the UK.

Which of these abused children were you Neil?
Or for that matter which of them did you abuse?

The fact is guys that by... (Below threshold)
Mike:

The fact is guys that by your own admission you see nothing wrong with abusing little five year old girls. You've admitted it right through this thread. You are sick perverts and you've admitted as much.

Anyone, who can equate what happened to this girl with abuse and being perverted obviously isn't familiar with either topic. It's ashame really, because if Neil really did study all that pyschology, what does that say for the state of that field when a graduate can't separate these basic beliefs.

Neil, you are an embarassment not only to your field of study, but your family as well. You can't defend anything and it sounds like you get your talking points from the democratic underground site.

These figures are available... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

These figures are available for all to see because we have people that care about these issues and who do something about it. You are absolutely right sir... I do come across children who have had difficulties whilst doing voluntary (yes some of us actually care about some things more than money) work to help them.

Tell you what though, if people like you had their way and anything was excusable in society (bar from disagreeing with you of course) there would be no such thing as abuse would there. Did you find the abuse figures for the USA on your travels per chance?

Not much point if the people who are supposed to protect are the ones abusing. I am fully aware of the type of people that exist in society and the fact that they always have an excuse for the crimes they commit. Just the same as the people on this thread making excuses for the abusers of this girl. they also try to befriend people to get them to understand their side of the story.

Scary when you think about it properly isn't it Mike. Get help.

and quite frankly I don't g... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

and quite frankly I don't give a shit what your women do with their vaginas lol.... probably wouln't be able to find one under all that skin anyhow. Now, go and search the net for some more answers about war.....while your at it try and find some literature concerning why it's not a good idea to mis-treat people.

Neil, you are pathetic. Wh... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Neil, you are pathetic. Why do you feel you have some sort of moral high ground here and feel you can insult, assume, and judge everyone accordingly? Why do you think you are right and absolute in your judgements? Is it the fear that all your years of study were for nought? That everything you learned is easily picked up by everyone in society through everyday experiences?

You still don't see a disconnect with this action and child abuse, let alone calling everyone perverts if they agree with said action. And yet you have no problem with relating this incident to all sorts of things that have nothing to do with it. Why is that? Can't be convincing based on your own arguments so why not through some non-sequitors in there, yeah, that'll do the trick.

Scary when you think about it properly, hey Neil?

For Mike:No offens... (Below threshold)
fatman:

For Mike:

No offense meant, but I think you're giving Neil waaaaaaaaaay too much credit. If he actually had studied in all the fields he claims, he'd have to be a professional student, with no time to gain work experience, much less volunteer (unless he's going to mail-order colleges). And even that would interfere with his play time here and on the porno sites. He does seem to have a knack for pushing your buttons, though (probably simple animal cunning). Don't let him get to you.

For Neil:

If you really think that anyone posting here is trying to befriend you (or even wants to live in the same country as you), your grip on reality is even more tenuous than I thought.

You still haven't answered my question: who more accurately profiled you, curious or me?

You're right, it's not a good idea to mis-treat people; given your country's experience in that field (dating back to 1066 A.D.), you'd know that as well as anyone.

And you "don't give a shit what our women do with their vaginas lol..."? Why does THAT not surprise me? In fact, it dovetails nicely with my theory that you're afraid of women your own age (I think I'm ahead on points, curious).

Well, I've had as much fun as I can handle for one day and it's my nap time, so Mike, Anti Neil and curious, I'll see you around. Neil, the tip for the day is baby wipes. Keep them handy so that when you're done, you can wipe your hands. Keeps the keyboard from getting all sticky.

Hey fatman :)I agr... (Below threshold)
curious:

Hey fatman :)

I agree..you certainly are ahead in points.

You know fatman; I can't help but to feel kinda sorry for this guy.

Think about it.. could you imagine living in a country where the women don't know about personal hygiene? Under those circumstances, I think I would also have to turn to internet porn :)
Also; I would choose a clean fat girl over a thin dirty one, ANY DAY! LOL

NeilIf fatman is i... (Below threshold)
curious:

Neil

If fatman is indeed correct about you being a 40 yr. old virgin, I wouldn't blame you one bit.

If I lived in a country where the women are dirty, I would also have to think LOOOOONG and hard before climbing into bed with one.

HEY Neil! How about this!
Have you ever thought about applying some Cologne to your upper lip? I know this wouldn't be as good as being with an american woman, but it MAY help.
If you do decide to give this a try, be sure to wash thoroughly afterwards!

Hope this helps. Good luck to ya.

Neil I've got to hand it to... (Below threshold)
Anti Neil:

Neil I've got to hand it to ya.
Without you pompous diatribes I would have never been motivated to look up the statistics of the number of kids that dis of child abuse in America each year. It's aprox 1400. That means 1.98 children per 100,000 die of abuse each year in America.

But the Interesting statistics are that in merry old England aprox 1460 Children die of abuse each year. That's aprox 2.43 per 100,000.

Where did I get my stats well the American stats were easy to find. The Brit stats were a bit more difficult (do your own research).

So your right England is better than America...

AT ABUSING CHILDREN TO DEATH!!!!

Thus Endeth The Lesson.

Oh yeah...One More t... (Below threshold)
Anti Neil:

Oh yeah...
One More thing.
The girl in the video is still alive and unharmed.
Except her very slightly bruised ego.

Good Article here:<a... (Below threshold)
Little Boy:
And Another "very" interest... (Below threshold)
Little Boy:

And Another "very" interesting one here:
http://news.tbo.com/news/MGBL4E5KZ7E.html
Judging from this paragraph Neil must have been there:
"Wilcox has received e-mails from across the nation expressing varying opinions about the girl's arrest. Some have posted vicious comments on his Web log, hosted by The St. Petersburg Times' Web site, prompting Times editors to remove entries containing ``race-based ugliness, profanities ... and other threatening language."

I'm amazed that ANYONE coul... (Below threshold)
curious:

I'm amazed that ANYONE could call the treatment of this girl "abuse". These same people are ignoring the facts.

The fact that this went on for about 45 mins..Hardly a "normal" tantrum which may last a min. or two.

The fact that the mother earlier told the school "don't touch my child" tells us the mother was NOT a parent concerned about her kid's earlier behavior, and was ONLY interested in limiting the school's options.

The fact that the mother told the school "I can't get there till 3:15" ...Isn't that when school let's out?

The fact that this kid WAS in control of her behavior and had no intentions of stopping until, of course, the cops arrived.

I saw this girl, and her sorry assed mother, on 'A Current Affair' last week. They were in NY at a amusement park and appeared to be having a good time. If ANYONE is to blame for this incident, IT'S THE DAMN MOTHER!!


curious:Much thank... (Below threshold)
fatman:

curious:

Much thanks for the kudos. It's nice to see my genius is appreciated (lol). But I'm worried; Neil hasn't posted since 9:24 AM (4:24 PM, GMT). Do you suppose maybe my tip about the babywipes came (sorry) too late? Maybe his keyboard is stuck!

(with apologies to Alan Ladd) Neeeeee-il! Neeeeee-il! Come back, Neil!!!

And to clear up any possibl... (Below threshold)
fatman:

And to clear up any possible misconceptions:

No, I don't think handcuffing the kid was the optimum action to take. The optimum action would be for the mother and the school staff to sit down and work out a plan of action for just this sort of situation. But no. The mother ordered the staff not to touch or restrain her "baby" no matter how outrageous or potentially dangerous her behavior. Then when she was called and asked to come in (at about 2:15 PM, I believe) and deal with her "baby's" behavior, she couldn't (or wouldn't) come in until 3:15 PM. What was the school supposed to do? Let her break some other kid's arm with a thrown chair? Damage some other kid's eye with the corner of a thrown book? Punch another kid instead of the (I think) assistant principal?

Sorry. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I wanted anyone who's just picked up this thread to know where I (and everyone else still posting to it) are coming from.

Except, of course, Neil Shone.

Oops!9:24 AM EDT i... (Below threshold)
fatman:

Oops!

9:24 AM EDT is ACTUALLY 2:24 PM GMT (or is it GDT during daylight savings?). My bad.

Oops!9:24 AM EDT i... (Below threshold)
fatman:

Oops!

9:24 AM EDT is Actually 2:24 GMT (or is that GDT during daylight savings time?). My bad.

Is it me or are we seeing a... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

Is it me or are we seeing an "about turn" situation with regards to whether it was right to handcuff this child. Don't tell me that after all that nastiness you've decided to agree with me?

Well done for recognising your initial mistake....it takes a real man to realise he was wrong.

NEIL!!!!You... (Below threshold)
Anti Neil:

NEIL!!!!


You're Back!
Don't worry Neil we'd never agree with you.

Hey I found the Blog from your Teacher at School.
www.tard-blog.com

Neil, I think it is safe to... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Neil, I think it is safe to assume that no one currently posting here is agreeing with you. No one!

It is common sense to realize that this wasn't the best course of action to take. Remember I said best, meaning most optimal. However, through the actions or inactions of the mother, the outrageous outburst and destructive behavior of the child in question, and the school's hands being tied, this action was not only acceptable, but necessary and correct.

Unfortunately there are dolts such as yourself who will cry abuse and racism where they don't exist and then insult everyone else who doesn't agree with you.

I'm beginning to think that you are a child yourself because it's so easy to show how wrong you are.

I think if you visit other ... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

I think if you visit other sites regarding this subject that it's actually you and your air head buddies that hold the minority opinion. Like I said days ago Mike....you needed to get some buddies on board to back you up and played the old "come on USA" card to do it. I'm just the only one left for you to play with. Don't worry son...won't be long before the courts give us their opinion. That's all that matters for now.....bet you it doesn't happen again. Nuff said.

NeilThe sites I've s... (Below threshold)
curious:

Neil
The sites I've seen show YOU are in the minority :)

Also; I hope your right about this not happening again. With any luck, this kid and her mother have learned a lesson.

NeilI have yet to ... (Below threshold)
curious:

Neil

I have yet to find ONE site that supports your claim. Maybe you would like to steer me in the right direction. I would love to see one.

BTW: I came across a good article I thought you might like. You can find it at:

http://www.tampabaylive.com/stories/2005/04/050422girlarrest.shtml

No, Neil, it's not an "abou... (Below threshold)
fatman:

No, Neil, it's not an "about turn" situation; it's just you. I still believe that, given the mother's uncaring, inattentive attitude to her child's discipline problem, that calling the police and having her restrained (with handcuffs)was the the best of a bad set of options. To think that I (or anyone else) said anything else is just another sign of your tenuous hold on reality.

You ARE right when you say that it takes a real man to realize he was wrong... which is why I don't ever expect to see you realize it.

As for all the nastiness, it wasn't any of US who starting calling people pedophiles, p***ks, perverts and thick f*****s and suggesting the school should be destroyed and the staff and police should be struck by lightning and roast in hell; it was YOU.

That said, I am glad you're back (got the keyboard unstuck, I see). I was wondering if curious' tip about the cologne on the upper lip helped? Or don't you need it for five year olds? As for the keyboard, just remember: BABYWIPES!!!

Heres the one from your gro... (Below threshold)
Anti Neil:

Heres the one from your group home:
http://www.slowchildren-atplay.com/

To Anti Neil:<a hr... (Below threshold)
fatman:

To Anti Neil:

http://www.slowchildren-atplay.com/ heh...I like that one.

To Neil:

In one of your attacks on Mike, you referred to (I guess) us as his "buddies". Shouldn't a Brit refer to his friends as "chums"? You fibbing about your motherland or are we corrupting you?

And just to add another cla... (Below threshold)
Mike:

And just to add another clarification oh wise Neil. I neither know nor have ever talked with these people here debating you. Well, I wouldn't actually call it a debate, more like a beating.

They, like me, like pointing out the stupidity in your arguments. Of course, I have no doubt that fatman, curious, little boy, Anti-Neil, and myself would enjoy having a beer and discussing politics.

I think you're right, Mike.... (Below threshold)
fatman:

I think you're right, Mike. Except for the beer, I'm afraid (health reasons).

I also agree, Mike. I would... (Below threshold)
curious:

I also agree, Mike. I wouldn't even mind Neil coming along :) I think it would be even more fun to 'whale the tar out him' in person (verbally of course) :)

I have to give fatman credit for coming up with, 'whale the tar out him'. That was pretty funny.

NeilHow about those ... (Below threshold)
curious:

Neil
How about those links to the sites you claim support you being in the majority? I've been to quite a few, and have yet to find ONE! :)

Thanks, curious, though I m... (Below threshold)
fatman:

Thanks, curious, though I must admit that I picked that one up from my grandfather (aka "Pappy").

It now seems, though, that Neil has retired from the fray to lick his wounds or whatever he licks; I'll check back every so often to see if he comes back.

In the meantime, it's been a real pleasure to make all your acquaintences, and maybe we can do this again sometime.

See you around Mike, Anti Neil, curious and littleboy.

Hi fatman I would li... (Below threshold)
curious:

Hi fatman
I would like to send you my email address: [email protected] I hope you send me your phone # because I would like to keep in touch :) I would also like to mail you something I think you will like.

That goes for the rest of you out there also :)

looks like curious wants to... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

looks like curious wants to join your paedo ring fatman. Why dont you all keep in touch...you could swap dirty pics.

Let me translate Neil's las... (Below threshold)
Anti Neil:

Let me translate Neil's last post:

Thank you sir, may I have another!

NEIL!!! WELCOME BACK!!! </p... (Below threshold)
fatman:

NEIL!!! WELCOME BACK!!!

I thought we had lost you there. I mean, you DID say "'nuff said". Then you didn't post for almost TWO WHOLE DAYS! I thought you might have done something rash, like hiring a "working girl" so you could find out what it's like to make it with a grown woman. And then it went badly, as these things tend to do for you, convincing you even more of the worthlessness of your life. And then you had...

But never mind. You're back and that's all that's important.

By the way, I'm not into pe... (Below threshold)
fatman:

By the way, I'm not into pedophilia (I wish you Brits would learn to spell). I actually prefer MILFs (I'm sure that with your experience at cruising porno sites, you know what I mean). I don't suppose you...sorry. I forgot who I was talking to here.

Thought I'd post before Nei... (Below threshold)
Anti Neil:

Thought I'd post before Neil could.

They spell Pedophile as paedophile, Just like color and colour, zed and zee for the letter Z. Oh those whacky brits.

It's Kind of like "Since you whipped our asses in 2 wars we're gone be different from you".
Example:
We bath - They Don't
We drive on the Right side - Them the Left
Small aircraft propellers turn the opposite of ours.
They're better at abusing children to death - See above post.

curious: Please do... (Below threshold)
fatman:

curious:

Please don't take offense and thanks for the offer, but for the moment I'm going to have to pass. I've had some serious--though non-internet related--problems related to giving out my phone # and it's made me a little leery. Same for my e-mail address. I do post regularly at this site on various subjects, so our paths should cross again. Maybe once we get to know each other better.

curious: Please do... (Below threshold)
fatman:

curious:

Please don't take offense and thanks for the offer, but for the moment I'm going to have to pass. I've had some serious--though non-internet related--problems related to giving out my phone # and it's made me a little leery. Same for my e-mail address. I do post regularly at this site on various subjects, so our paths should cross again. Maybe once we get to know each other better.

That sucks. The teachers s... (Below threshold)
andy:

That sucks. The teachers should've locked the little fucker in the classroom, and taken bets over how long the little shit could keep it up.

It would've been a win-win situation in all directions because:

a)the teachers wouldn't have had a whole bunch of stress trying to deal with the fucker and plus they would've made a quick buck too.

b)the kid would've gotten to tear whatever she wanted apart on her own terms. And besides, tantrums are for attention right? Well, the kid would've had a crowd of eager bettors watching her.

c)the cops wouldn't have had to bother wasting gas getting down there and could've stayed in the back closet getting high.

I agree with you andy....if... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

I agree with you andy....if they'd left her alone and gone for a chuff (or whatever the so-called proffesionals over there do in their spare time) evrything would've been fine. Then when the mother finally turned up she could've been given the option of fixing everything up or paying for the damage. What could be easier than that?

"Be a realist, demand the impossible" (Che Guavara)

Neil follow this timeline:<... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Neil follow this timeline:

- Teachers leave kid alone in some room
- Kid winds up hurting herself
- Mom finally shows up and demands to know why her kid was left unsupervised in a room by herself
- Mom sues school for negligence

It most likely would not have happened that way, but it's possible. The way it was handled in this situatiton, no one got hurt. Imagine that? At the end of the day, everyone went home OK. But guess what, the mom is suing anyway. Bottom line, nothing short of an intervention from God would have stopped this mom from finding fault with someone other than herself and essentially suing. Even if the mom found the girl alone in a room unharmed when she got to the school, she would have most likely charged the school with placing her daughter in what looked like a prison cell and sued.

SPANK!... (Below threshold)
Anti Neil:

SPANK!

Mike, I actually agree with... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

Mike, I actually agree with you about the compensation culture in the USA and in the UK these days. Come on though, did they honestly think that the mother wouldn't sue if they handcuffed the child? I also agree that the whole system is wrong if it allows a child to take control, but remember, the child didn't make the rules. It's in our nature to push boundaries and limits....particularly in a culture like the USA. That's how it was discovered (strange word for a place where people already lived), that's how you put a man on the moon (fat lot of good that did too).

It's up to the adults in society to set the acceptable boundaries and produce humane methods of ensuring the majority of people keep within them. Everyones been let down in this case, but can you blame the child? remember, she's 5.

You're Wrong.... (Below threshold)
Anti Neil:

You're Wrong.

Spanking children was one r... (Below threshold)

Spanking children was one reason why Hitler became so strong. Children learned that it's very painful not to obey. And they learned it good, they still knew it when they were adults. Following orders - any orders - was more important than sensibility to the pain and suffering of other humans. Following orders was more important than freedom.

Don't get me wrong. There are many good things going on in your country. Handcuffing a little child does not belong to these things.

5 year old Children sometimes behave like that. This is perfectly normal and not a sign of unnormal agression or bad education. And... of course you may hold a child in such a situation and do what is necessary to prevent it from damaging something / hurting someone.

I hope this was not to offensive for you.

Greetings from Austria

Hey Mikey,Ever heard... (Below threshold)
andy:

Hey Mikey,
Ever heard of somethin' called a release form?

One advantage to handcuffin... (Below threshold)
fatman:

One advantage to handcuffing the child as opposed to locking her in the classroom by herself: it greatly reduced--if not completely eliminated--the possibility that she might injure herself.

Sure, right, mmhmm, the mos... (Below threshold)
andy:

Sure, right, mmhmm, the most the little fucker could've done was pull something on herself, fall/scrape herself, and basically do just about anything to hurt herself even had there been supervision. So now what? Does the mother decide to sue because her kid scraped herself? She might as well sue for endangerment to her life. After all, walking on an uncarpeted area of the floor could be lethal. Right? Right?

Right.... (Below threshold)
fatman:

Right.

Hey andy,Consideri... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Hey andy,

Considering that this woman went on A Current Affair and used her daughter as a prop to try and garner support, yes, I do believe the mom would sue for a scraped knee. Better yet, what about the psychological damage done to her by being placed in what the mother was sure to call a jail cell?

Anything is possible with what I've read about this woman.

I can hear her now: "I mig... (Below threshold)
andy:

I can hear her now: "I might not have been able to afford that abortion, but so long as I can sue on your behalf, you'll EARN your keep you little shit!!"

Oh! that ones going to leav... (Below threshold)
Anti Neil:

Oh! that ones going to leave a mark!

As long as the authorities ... (Below threshold)
Neil Shone:

As long as the authorities abuse kids people will always sue, no matter what their reasons.

Yeah. I wonder if that lad... (Below threshold)
andy:

Yeah. I wonder if that lady's brazen enough to sue herself on her kid's behalf?

Well... Well... Well...... (Below threshold)
Anti Neil:

Well... Well... Well...

It seems that Britian is intolerant of little brats who are disruptive as well!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1652127,00.html
"Disruptive toddlers to be treated as potential criminals, says report"

Well I guess I got the last... (Below threshold)
Anti Neil:

Well I guess I got the last Word...

I'll just take my cheese and go!

the whole time the teacher ... (Below threshold)
Dan:

the whole time the teacher could not touch the student. Therin lies a huge problm with the school system

How about a switch or a str... (Below threshold)

How about a switch or a strap? I would wager that if the mother sat her little charmer down and talked to her then reinforced her talk with either a small willow switch or a leather strap and let her daughter kniw that this would happen any time she behaved in this fashion, the problem would soon end. The cops should not have to deal with this. That is what would have happened to me in my house. Guess what I am 59 years old and quite alive and well. This poor child is now stigmitized simply because her mother did not have the goond sense to whip her. I would rather be whipped privately at home than handcuffed by the police and out on worldwide TV--Talk about child abuse!!!!!!!

I am in shock! I have twin... (Below threshold)
Beth:

I am in shock! I have twin 5 year olds and I have seen tantrums that will could top that and with the right attitude and some space they can resolve! I started crying seeing this! I mean she was sitting and they put the fear in her but to actually hand cuff her! I am sure this will scar her for life. I am sure the teacher had her feeling trapped and then the police who are supposed to help hand cuff her! I feel so bad for her. They were smart in taping this but they sat outside and made a side show of this!

As a parent of a 5-year old... (Below threshold)
Michelle:

As a parent of a 5-year old, I do recognize that tantrums will happen. Strees in the household, or school, etc., can increase the chances of a tantrum. However, the kid is only 5 years old. They are not young adults or adults. A 5 year old is still like a baby in many ways. They do not think or rationalize like you and I do. They still need naps. They are not adults!! If my daycare provider reacted like this school did, they would have a law suit on their hands. At least daycare providers are used to dealing with tantrums. When did it get to the point that Kindergarten teachers missed this lesson on child behavior? Geez, teachers need degrees and licenses but still don't know how to handle these young children? Yet, daycare providers don't but still seem better able to handle these types of situation...why does this not make ANY sense??
Also, I do not need ANYBODY slapping, spanking, or doing any sort of hitting my child's hands with a ruler. My child is very well behaved and has never been in trouble in any daycare centers or in his Kindergarten class. Yes, he is diciplined--but not physically. If I'm not willing to discipline him in that way, why should a teacher be allowed to do so? To me, it's allowing the teacher to lose patience and temper. Not Okay in my book.

I do not feel that the teac... (Below threshold)
Laura:

I do not feel that the teacher was trained for this type of behavior. The teacher needs continuous additional training, she was not able to create a new or safe enviornment for the child instead the teacher made the situation worse. I'm not saying the child was not in the wrong, it's that the teacher does not handle the situation correctly.
As far as the child is conserned professinal councling would be a great idea. The child needs positive renforcement not hositlity. All comes down to the parents not having enough time and structure for their daughter. As far as the cops are concerned I feel that under the circumstances ,and the extent of the damage,the police had no choice but, to come in and create peace and take the child out of the setting.

I was beat up by a prattvil... (Below threshold)
kelli:

I was beat up by a prattville police officer in july8 2006. I ended up with a broken leg and both arms were riped out of socket I have had 2 surgies on both arms and will never recover. I have a home health lady come and cant be left alone. I was found innocent for what i was arrested for and the police officer was written up for a feloney assualt but told me I would never get one of their officers arrested. So when I saw this I cried I knew the terror this little girl must have been through

IT'S A DAM SHAME TO SEE POL... (Below threshold)
MELODY:

IT'S A DAM SHAME TO SEE POLICE OFFICERS GRABBING ON LITTLE BABIES LIKE THAT. IF WE, AS A PEOPLE LET THIS CONTINUE' IT WILL BE A WAR ON POLICE MEN, EVEN IF THERE'RE GOOD ONES. LEAVE THE BABIES THE HELL ALONE

Folks, any experienced educ... (Below threshold)
MIchele:

Folks, any experienced educator will watch this child and notice nearly off the bat that she has low verbal skills for a 5 yr old...and there is a 92% correlation between having one developmental delay and having more...clearly she needs evaluated for a perhaps less inclusive setting, if she is to be successful. Duh. Whay was she in the class she was in in the first place?

Theres a good possibiity th... (Below threshold)
Jannet:

Theres a good possibiity that this child is suffering from the effects of either some form or abuse, an emotional disturbance, PSTD or a form of Autism.
I am very experianced in the field of autism, and it worries me that the educators failed to see the red flags, and if this child is suffering from
any of the mentoned conditions, the las thing you would want to do is handcuff such a child! (Or any child!) what were these so called child professionals thinking thinking?

if i were the chife of poli... (Below threshold)
chuck:

if i were the chife of police
id fire them police officers for doing that

well thats wrong id ... (Below threshold)
catl wolf:

well thats wrong
id just spank her ass 2 or 3 times with a wooden paddle and i bet she would think twice be fore having any more tantrums at school

the police officers that ha... (Below threshold)
butch levan:

the police officers that hand cuffed a 5 year
old should have to go to councling for at lest 10
years
and thay also should have to go to the local houspital and have their brain exzamined
cat scaned and exrayed

to try and find out why thay did a foolish
thing as hand cuff a deffencless little girl

this footage made me want t... (Below threshold)
dean:

this footage made me want to cry, what are those people thinking of,
this is child abuse, they had no no legal right to cuff that little girl.
those policeofficers should not only be sacked but prosecuted for assault.




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Editors: Jay Tea, Lorie Byrd, Kim Priestap, DJ Drummond, Michael Laprarie, Baron Von Ottomatic, Shawn Mallow, Rick, Dan Karipides, Michael Avitablile, Charlie Quidnunc, Steve Schippert

Emeritus: Paul, Mary Katherine Ham, Jim Addison, Alexander K. McClure, Cassy Fiano, Bill Jempty, John Stansbury, Rob Port

In Memorium: HughS

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