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A prelude to war?

New Hampshire's current least favorite visitor, Jorge Mora Ramirez, an illegal alien from Mexico who was arrested for trespassing in New Ipswich, is back in the news today. This time, though, he's letting his lawyer do his talking.

Ramirez' mouthpiece, attorney Mona Movafaghi, is talking. And if I had any doubts as to her agenda, they've been dispelled.

Oh, where shall I begin? It's a cornucopia of scummery.

"If (Chamberlain) feels like this is his mission in life, he should join ICE," she said, referring to Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), the federal agency charged with enforcing immigration law.

Chamberlain is the chief who charged Ramirez with criminal trespassing. Apparently Ms. Movafaghi objects to a police chief enforcing all the laws -- she'd rather he selectively choose which to enforce in his jurisdiction. And if other law enforcement agents fail in their duties, Chamberlain should simply shrug and let it slide.

Immigration authorities are "told to target criminals, terrorists and people who are causing trouble," the attorney said.

Excuse me? What part of "illegal" don't you understand in the phrase "illegal alien," ma'am? He entered into this country illegally, so he's by definition a criminal.

"The police chief is saying a person who is traveling on public roads has no right to do so if they are in the U.S. illegally . . .," she said. "If you are from Milford, can you be on the roads in New Ipswich?" Movafaghi said. "Where does it end? The immigration laws make the determination on who's here illegally, not the police chief," she said.

Here's a hint, Ms. Movafaghi. If you are in the U.S. illegally, you are liable to be arrested and deported anywhere, at any time. There is no "goal" you can run to and tag. You can't call "sanctuary" wherever you like.

And it ends at ILLEGAL ALIENS. If you are from Milford, you are most likely a legal resident of the United States and therefore not trespassing within the United States. If you are an illegal alien, you simply have NO RIGHT to remain here.

But don't worry. Ms. Movafaghi knows MUCH more about this than any of us. Just listen to her:

"I think people don't understand the state of immigration in New Hampshire . . . both illegal and legal. If there is an issue in a small state like New Hampshire, you can imagine the problems in New York and Florida," she said.

...and just how will keeping your client here in the country illegally help this situation, Ms. Movafaghi? I guess I'm not "educated" on the matter enough to grasp the nuances.

And what Movafaghi chooses to not address is just as telling as what she does say.

Movafaghi declined to comment on whether she is being paid by the Mexican Consulate, Ramirez or working pro bono. The Mexican Consulate in Boston did not return calls for comment.

I'll repeat what I said before: if the Mexican government is arguing (through Ms. Movafaghi) that its residents have a legal right to enter the United States at will, and are not bound to respect the immigration laws of the United States, then they are violating the sovereignty of the United States. And that is an act of war.

I'm not calling for us to declare war on Mexico (yet), but if reminding Mexico of the ramifications of their actions is what it takes to get them to stop this invasion, so be it.



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Comments (55)

I hope this story gets pick... (Below threshold)
Mike:

I hope this story gets picked up big-time nationally. What the police chief has done hear is commendable and he should be praised for doing what a major majority of the public wants done. This criminal, illegal alien has no right to be here and hopefully will be heading back to Mexico after his deportation hearing.

I hope more local police chiefs follow New Ipswich's lead.

What law school did she go ... (Below threshold)
Zsa Zsa:

What law school did she go to? Is she making her own laws up while she speaks?... I don't get it! Is she on drugs? Maybe she needs to take her medication? When you think about it it is kind of one of those typical attorney things...

I agree.The Chief ... (Below threshold)
kevino:

I agree.

The Chief should be commended for a very creative and accurate) reading of the statute.

The attorney for the accused is blowing a lot of smoke to avoid the key issue. The closest legal argument she has is this line: "We think that it's a misuse of the law and it was not the intent of the statute to be used in that way." I can't see that the law is being misused, and I've never heard of a case where such an argument was successfully made. There are many cases where the intent of the legislature is argued in how a key phrase or test is made, but that's a tough one to make here, too.

Bottom line: if this is the best argument her client has, she's in trouble. She better hope that she gets a judge who's soft in the heart and soft in the head.

Also, I can't help but notice that the first spokesperson from the Federal government (ICE) was not impressed with the actions of the Chief. The person quoted in this article has reversed course and talks about enforcing the law. They must have gotten quite a few phone calls from angry tax payers.

As a resident of Texas, I p... (Below threshold)
Wally:

As a resident of Texas, I proclaim that this war against illegals has already been lost. Go to deep south Texas as I have, in McAllen, and see the Mexican flag flying alongside the US and Texas flags. See street signs in Spanish. See billboards in Spanish. See entire towns run by Hispanics, officially speaking Spanish-only, and see them offering official aid and sanctuary to illegals (in violation of US law). See local and state politicians pandering to the hispanic vote.

I wish New Hampshire well in its efforts, but, as with the Borg, resistance is futile. These people are taking over down here, and in 50 years, Texas may as well be part of Mexico again, if it hasn't been officially reannexed by then. 'Aztlan' is what they call it.

New rule: you defend an ill... (Below threshold)
mesablue:

New rule: you defend an illegal, you get deported with them when you lose.

Can you say Abogado?

I think the case of the illegal killing the policeman in Denver may be the tipping point in this issue. Turns out he worked for a restaurant owned by the mayor that knew he was an illegal.

To quote Michelle Malkin: "Just killing the cops no one else will kill, and washing a few dishes on the side."

Illegal immigrants are huge... (Below threshold)

Illegal immigrants are huge to the Mexican economy. Don't expect any cooperation from the Mexican gov't (if you were previously holding out hope.)

One more time, Mexico is no... (Below threshold)
bullwinkle:

One more time, Mexico is not now nor has it ever been responsible for patrolling U.S. borders. The U.S., and only the U.S. is. No free nation restricts the right of it's citizens to leave for any reason, the U.S. damn sure doesn't. The U.S. is doing a pitiful job of enforcing it's laws but calling on Mexico to do it for us doesn't make sense and it's not going to happen. It's in their constitution that they can't restrict foreign travel of it's citizens. No free nation does that, and that includes the U.S. Mexico is not the problem and they won't be the solution. We need to enforce our own laws and quit expecting anyone else to do it for us and give up entirely on getting another nation to rewrite their constitution because our politicians lack the balls to enforce our laws. What is so hard to understand about that?

Heres the freedom of travel... (Below threshold)
bullwinkle:

Heres the freedom of travel article:

Article 11. Everyone has the right to enter and leave the Republic, to travel through its territory and to change his residence without necessity of a letter of security, passport, safe-conduct or any other similar requirement. The exercise of this right shall be subordinated to the powers of the judiciary, in cases of civil or criminal liability, and to those of the administrative authorities insofar as concerns the limitations imposed by the laws regarding emigration, immigration and public health of the country, or in regard to undesirable aliens resident in the country.

Bullwinkle, we know how you... (Below threshold)

Bullwinkle, we know how you feel about this. We understand and sympathize.

We just don't agree.

Bullwinkle,I think... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Bullwinkle,

I think you are missing Jay Tea's point. Disregard this statement:
if the Mexican government is arguing (through Ms. Movafaghi) that its residents have a legal right to enter the United States at will

and give more credence to this one:
and are not bound to respect the immigration laws of the United States,

I think the fact that the Mexican Government is willing to pay for the defense of one of its citizens that is clearly violating another country's immigration laws is the gross violation here.

I agree with you that the U.S. needs to be doing more to secure its borders and that we are solely responsible for this. But to have the Mexican government hand out brochures with tips on crossing the border illegally and to come to the aid of this criminal is outrageous. We as a country do need to issue some stern warnings for Mexico to back off and start aggressive prosecution of illegal immigrants and those that employ them.

Just because the U.S. isn't doing enough to stop illegal immigration, doesn't mean we have to play nice with Mexico.

Any time an American is arr... (Below threshold)
bullwinkle:

Any time an American is arrested overseas the first thing they do is call the either the consulate or embassy and they send someone to check on them and supply legal help if necessary. Mexico has the absolute right to do the same thing for it's citizens. I deal with that on a nearly daily basis for the southern half of the state of Quintana Roo, for the U.S. Government and for Israel in some cases. The U.S. and Israel both will provide legal aid for it's citizens arrested overseas. Why shouldn't mexico be allowed to help it's citizens like we do?

I also have helped out peop... (Below threshold)
bullwinkle:

I also have helped out people from nearly every country if Europe, even the stinking French, and Aussies, Kiwis, and quite a few Asians. Not every country will supply legal aid but all that I know of try to mediate problems for their citizens arrested overseas.

I couldn't care less if you... (Below threshold)
bullwinkle:

I couldn't care less if you sympathize or not McGeehee, you can cry all you want to, no nation is going to rewrite it's constitution to make you happy. You damn sure wouldn't advocate rewriting our constitution to make some foreign asshole just because his government lacked the spine to enforce their won laws. If you want to be pissed be pissed at your own government, they aren't doing their job. Why some people are too ignorant to understand that is beyond explanation.

Aztlan is the <a href="http... (Below threshold)
-S-:

Aztlan is the racist movement out of Mexico.

I know I'll never buy a Ford again, no matter how much I enjoy a Ranger.

Actually the New Ipswich Po... (Below threshold)
LJD:

Actually the New Ipswich Police Department's treatment of this individual was very humane and fair:

Trespassers can still be shot in a lot of places.

"I'm not calling for us to ... (Below threshold)
frameone:

"I'm not calling for us to declare war on Mexico (yet), but if reminding Mexico of the ramifications of their actions is what it takes to get them to stop this invasion, so be it."

Hey Jay

So would this be the invasion that gets your ass in the military or would you still appreciate others doing the work for you?

Let's see if I'm understand... (Below threshold)
bullwinkle:

Let's see if I'm understanding your side of the argument.
1. The U.S. isn't enforcing it's own immigration laws.
2. You reason that even though you are unable to get your own government to do it you can somehow make Mexico do it for them?
3. In lieu of that you can get your own government to force Mexico to enforce U.S. laws by ignoring it's own constitution?
4. You enjoy exercises in futility!

Joser proves once again tha... (Below threshold)
bullwinkle:

Joser proves once again that he's too stupid to know it's impossible to prove negative. I'm amazed he's not demanding that Mexico enforce our laws like everyone else.

Loser, I mean Joser: So how... (Below threshold)
Cousin Dave:

Loser, I mean Joser: So how many oil allocations did you get from Saddam Hussein?

Joser:It generally... (Below threshold)
ryan:

Joser:

It generally works better to stick to the topic, or at least in the general vicinity, when trying to make a point.

We have a similar issue wit... (Below threshold)
Gary:

We have a similar issue with an ILLEGAL ALIEN in Denver, unfortunately ours resulted in the death of a police officer.

BTW- we're still not sure if Denver was/is officially designated as a Sanctuary City.

link http://www.khow.com/main.html

Gary

Bullwinkle,I think... (Below threshold)

Bullwinkle,

I think you are absolutely right that we can in no way expect the Mexican Government to close down the border for us. That is a job our government is utterly failing to do. But at the same time you have to acknowledge that far from just allowing free travel of its citizens the Mexican government facilitates illegal immigration in to the U.S.

This should not be tolerated.

Bullwinkle,While I... (Below threshold)
mesablue:

Bullwinkle,

While I don't disagree with your point about a country offering aid for one of their citizens or expecting a country to change just for us, I think it is a little different when a country condones and then encourages illegal behavior in another country.

Is there another place in the world where the citizens of one country are moving en masse illegally into a "friendly" neighbor?

It's the scope of the problem, not just this one incident. When the Mexican government pays for legal help in this case they are test casing and providing support for every illegal immigrant. They know it, we know it.

It is not unreasonable for us to expect that a neighbor country assist us in curtailing the illegal activities of their own citizens. Though, as much as they've helped stop (assist) drugs moving across the border, we can't expect much help here either.

I'm sure that if several million of us, hopefully the entire populations of California and Massachusetts, decided to move to the beautiful beaches of Q. Roo, without any means of support except for the generosity of the government or whatever menial jobs they could find and didn't pay income taxes while filling up their schools and piling into their hospitals --- Mexico would be SCREAMING for our help.

That being said, it is rediculous that we are not taking control of our own borders. It's even more rediculous that our politicians on boths sides and law enforcement are unwilling to enforce the law of the land.

God forbid we have a terrorist attack come from our Southern border. Then they'll have us removing our shoes at the check points where you can walk or drive accross the border. Maybe we should put TSA in charge, oops forgot, they are already losing their jobs.

I can assure you that IF Me... (Below threshold)
bullwinkle:

I can assure you that IF Mexico is paying for the lawyer ( I seriously doubt it, more likely some leftist idiot that's a natural born citizen) it's because of the way the trespasssing law is being used in this one and only case. They have never once lifted a hand to attempt to stop us from deporting an illegal for being an illegal and it's extremely unlikely they ever will. I've spent to much time on the border and seen far too many buses loaded with illegals we've deported to think they have or will ever try to stop deportation for crossing illegally. I think a lot of people think I'm on the side of the illegals, I'm not, I'm on the side of the U.S. enforcing it's laws and getting them out. Mexico will never help us enforce our laws if we don't enforce them ourselves. They look at it as something our government doesn't take seriously and they are right. Why should they treat it any differently?

It's nice to see that at le... (Below threshold)
mantis:

It's nice to see that at least one person (bullwinkle) on this thread is providing a voice of reason. My favorite part of Jay's post is this:

if the Mexican government is arguing (through Ms. Movafaghi) that its residents have a legal right to enter the United States at will, and are not bound to respect the immigration laws of the United States, then they are violating the sovereignty of the United States. And that is an act of war.

Go get em, Jay! Do you think we have the resources for a war against Mexico? Or should we just nuke em? An act of war?! By making a legal argument they are declaring war? The arrogance and stupidity of that is appalling.

So what do we have here: Our government largely looks the other way when it comes to immigration because they know that Amer. businesses benefit from illegal labor, the huge majority of which consists of poor mexicans who come here because they cannot find work in their own country. But you xenophobes don't care about who is responsible for securing our borders, you just hate the damn Mexicans. What's worse, you actually think its a good idea for local cops to be immigration enforcement officers as well. I think it will be great if every time I see a cop I hear: "Papers! Vere are your papers?! Schnell! Mach Schnell!"

As a side note I would like to see a show of hands, how many of you immigration nuts lost a job to a Mexican? Raise em up high.

Before anyone starts associ... (Below threshold)
bullwinkle:

Before anyone starts associating my views with mantis I want to go on the record saying that I absolutely, positively do think local law enforcement MUST enforce all laws, they are sworn to uphold all laws and a derelict in their duty if they don't arrest anyone breaking any law that they know of.

bullwinkle, i've heard abou... (Below threshold)

bullwinkle, i've heard about this pamphlet, or brochure offered by the mexican government which not only mentions, but EXPLAINS HOW to illegally enter the United States, and gives TIPS on how to do it!

If that isn't a ringing endorsement against the laws of another country, I don't know. By your arguments, the United States has been ENDORSING and ENCOURAGING its citizens to violate laws in other countries?
How so? Give examples!

speaking of, <a href="http:... (Below threshold)

speaking of, here's a link to an english translated version of the very same brochure I mentioned.

As a side note, they DO mention about legally entering the United States:
"The safe way to enter another country is by first obtaining your passport, which is issued by the Delegations of the Secretariat of Foreign Relations, and your visa, which you request at the Embassy or Consulate of the country to where you wish to travel."

However, the bulk of the brochure is about illegally entering the united states and is filled with tips...
excerpts:

DANGERS OF CROSSING IN HIGH-RISK ZONES

Crossing the river can be very risky, especially if you cross alone and at night..

Thick clothing weighs you down when it's wet and makes it hard to swim or float.

RISKS, PAGES 6 - 7

If you cross in the desert, try to travel when the heat is not so intense.

Highways and towns are very far apart, so that it could take you several days to find roads and you will not be able to carry food or water for that long. You could even get lost.

Salted water helps you retain body fluids. Although you get more thirsty, if you drink salted water the risk of dehydration is lessened.

Bear in mind that it is translated, I haven't seen the original document in question, but its still very troubling nonetheless.

It's nice to see that at... (Below threshold)
mesablue:

It's nice to see that at least one person (bullwinkle) on this thread is providing a voice of reason.

Ouch.

;-)

Before anyone starts ass... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Before anyone starts associating my views with mantis I want to go on the record saying that I absolutely, positively do think local law enforcement MUST enforce all laws, they are sworn to uphold all laws and a derelict in their duty if they don't arrest anyone breaking any law that they know of.

Well, first I didn't mean to imply that you and I hold all the same beliefs or opinions; obviously we often disagree, though you're arguments are always rational. That being said, I completely agree with what you wrote above. Law enforcement should enforce all laws, and I wouldn't say otherwise. When I disagree with those laws, my beef is with the legislature, not the cops.

so mantis, Do you ... (Below threshold)
Mike:

so mantis,

Do you agree with what happened in New Ipswich? If not, which legislation do you find improper?

Bullwinkle,

Stop extrapolating people's arguments. We all get your point and to a large extent most of us agree with it. I for one am not calling for Mexico to change their Constitution, that is absurd, I am not a Mexican citizen. However, do you agree that Mexico bares some of the blame for encouraging illegal immigration of their own citizens and should be treated hostilely by our own Government?

And I realize that governments, including ours, come to the aid of its citizens when they are arrested in other foreign countries. I just want Mexico to be held accountable for their actions in this case and treated accordingly. They are hardly our allies.

We covered that comic book ... (Below threshold)
bullwinkle:

We covered that comic book before Henry, it's a joke. Everyone down here gets a big laugh out of it. Anyone that needs to be told to carry water in the desert because the desert gets hot isn't threatening my job, or anyone else's that I know of. Post the whole thing in context, you left out the part that says, "If you have made the very tough decision to enter illegally....", in other words, we can't stop you, so try not to die. It also warns them about coyotes and tells anyone that reads it that they shouldn't go, it's dangerous and illegal. Mexico has little to gain by sending it's most capable to another country to earn income they can't tax but they are constitutionally bound to allow their people to leave at will just like our government is bound to allow us to exercise our rights.

Mike, I agree that Mexico i... (Below threshold)
bullwinkle:

Mike, I agree that Mexico is 100% of the blame for it's people needing to leave Mexico to look for decent jobs. Over 70 years of PRI corruption that outright screwed 99% of the people here is terrible. Charging it's own people higher prices for gasoline than they sell the energy equivalent of oil to other nations, mostly the U.S. is a crime. The gasoline always costs more in Mexico than it does in the U.S. and they export to us. But they are not responsible for patrolling our borders, to say they are is a cop out. If you got nearly as mad at the ones that are responsible for keeping illegals out as you are at Mexico you might accomplish something. The buck stops there, don't lay the blame for the current lack of enforcement on anyone but the ones that aren't enforcing it. When was the last time you put as much effort into contacting your senator and congressman to urge them to do something about this as you have put into blaming someone who isn't responsible?

A rather bizarre situation ... (Below threshold)

A rather bizarre situation in New Jersey created an opportunity to roll up an illegal alien document procurement ring. A local police department recently got new cellphones, and one of the numbers belonged to a guy who helped illegals procure photo ids and other paperwork.

The ringleader is still at large, but the local cops have been reeling in illegals in search of forged documents.

Do you agree with what h... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Do you agree with what happened in New Ipswich? If not, which legislation do you find improper?

I'll answer that, sure. Here's a bit from Jay's original post on this subject.

Last summer, they caught a van full of illegals, but were ordered by Immigration officials to let them go.

Chief Chamberlain never forgot that, and has had numerous other encounters with illegals since then, all ending unsatisfactorily. But recently, he sat down with some of his officers and tried to find a solution.

Seems to me he is an industrious Police Chief trying to find a solution for a problem. Hey, I got no problem with that, in fact I like him. Here's more from Jay's update:

It's not much, but it's a start. And I, for one, am glad to see local law enforcement stepping up when federal authorities are falling down on the job.

Hey, me too. But here Jay clearly states the problem. Federal, immigration authorities are not doing their job. So, actually I agree with the law here, the problem is that the enforcement is lacking. So, I don't disagree with what the Chief did, and I don't disagree with the legislation. What I do disagree with, however, is the hatred this seems to bring out in people toward illegal immigrants in general, and Mexicans in particular, as if this weren't a problem with our own government. I also disagree with Jay's idiotic talk about war. And I think its misguided to encourage local cops to charge illegals with local crimes instead of reporting them to immigration officials, when you could instead encourage immigration officials to do their job and export captured illegals (I also bet it costs more to charge the man and go through the court proceedings on this misdemeanor than it would to just deliver or report him to immigration officials). And I don't like what such things can lead to, and I'm pretty sure the libertarians and others here would agree that being forced to provide identification without cause just to check if you're legal is not something we want our law enforcement doing (obviously in this case the illegal was driving, and you have to have ID for that). So how far are we willing to go?

And I wish people would lay off the Mexicans. When I was younger I worked in a number of restaurants in CA, and as a result have known a number of illegal immigrants. They're not bad people, and I'm willing to bet that for most of you, if you grew up in the shit they did and had the prospects they had at home, you would sure as hell find the rich country to your north that has plenty of work for you looking pretty damned attractive, legal or not.

I hate to harp on this agai... (Below threshold)
frameone:

I hate to harp on this again but while you all are discussing the ins and outs of immigration policy has everyone just decided to overlook the fact that not four days ago Jay wrote that if this country were invaded he would, without hesitation, mind you, volunteer to serve in the miliary?

Now he's arguing that this country is indeed being invaded and that this invasion may indeed constitute an act of war. Am I out of bounds in asking whether or not Jay, or anyone else who agreed with his previous post, is currently packing up his kit bag and heading to an Army recruting office or, at least, applying for jobs with the INS or DHS? At the very least is anyone here quitting their job to joing the Minuteman movement because, darn it, we're being invaded?

Let me ask this: If, indeed, the Mexican government is arguing (through Ms. Movafaghi) that its residents have a legal right to enter the United States at will, will Jay sign up for the invasion of Mexico or, once again, was his rhetoric simply that, more empty words?

Bullwinkle, But... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Bullwinkle,

But they are not responsible for patrolling our borders, to say they are is a cop out.

Do you have a reading comprehension problem or something? Or do you just want to continue explaining your argument?

For the last time, I agree that we are solely responsible for the security of our borders! Dammit man, read my posts.

If you got nearly as mad at the ones that are responsible for keeping illegals out as you are at Mexico you might accomplish something. The buck stops there, don't lay the blame for the current lack of enforcement on anyone but the ones that aren't enforcing it.

I agree with stuff you write often, but not you're just being ignorant of other people's posts. I think you will find more anger at our lack of immigration enforcement among those you claim are more mad at Mexico, of course that doesn't mean we can't be mad at the cavalier attitude that Mexico takes on illegal immigration into our country.

When was the last time you put as much effort into contacting your senator and congressman to urge them to do something about this as you have put into blaming someone who isn't responsible?

Again, I am not blaming Mexico. The blame lies with the criminals here illegally and the companies that hire them. But I've said that before and you just choose to ignore it.

Anyone that needs to be ... (Below threshold)

Anyone that needs to be told to carry water in the desert because the desert gets hot isn't threatening my job, or anyone else's that I know of. - Bullwinkle

As a side note I would like to see a show of hands, how many of you immigration nuts lost a job to a Mexican? Raise em up high. - Mantis

How about a show of hands from anyone who thinks this debate is about fear for your job rather than the principle of enforcing the law and protecting the borders.

I have argued for at least ... (Below threshold)
Robert:

I have argued for at least 3 years now that we should just incorporate Mexico and divide that region into say, 10 states and just make it a part of the United States of America!

As I understand it Ramirez ... (Below threshold)
penny:

As I understand it Ramirez wasn't confined to jail without the ability to phone the Mexican consulate. His rights seem pretty much protected in this affair.

He is an illegal driving illegally without a license which equals two illegal acts. I respect the creative cop, who feeling dissed by the feds lack of interest in enforcing the federal part of the equation, put Ramirez in a spot that forces the deportation hearing. Of course, the scofflaw contractor has already filled his spot with another illegal.

Sorry, Mantis, I'm not willing to compromise our country's safety because the bordering one has made a shambles of it's economy through decades of corrupt mismanagement. The bottomline is that Mexicans have a responsibilty to clean up their own country. Mexicans are decent people. Their upward mobility, we're not talking starvation there, isn't my responsibility.

Why not Canada, Robert?... (Below threshold)
penny:

Why not Canada, Robert?

Henry and bullwinkle (becau... (Below threshold)
-S-:

Henry and bullwinkle (because you've made mention of this, but not to exclude anyone else): about that pamphlet/book of instructions about how to carry water in a desert and more...I've never perceived that effort by the Mexican government as an effort to explain survival to hapless illegal immigrants, so much as I've perceived it as Mexico declaring a position by means of grafitti tagging: the contents reflect an antagonistic stand about the U.S. immigration requirements/process and don't represent an effort to provide aid to any of theirs.

If locals (in Mexico) find it laughable, all the more evidence of that, and that is that the publication is moreorless Vicente Fox and his spitting across the border, putting it plainly (they DID draw cartoons, did they not?) as to where their intentions are (illegal immigration, just DO it, you know you want to, and tell them Vicente Fox sent you) and where they are not ("we don't need no stinkin' badges").

Taken literally, the pamphlets are, yes, laughable to locals but taken symbolically, they are guerrilla (spelled?) and hardcore guerrilla tools.

It's an official statement, a position paper. Otherwise, teaching fish how to swim and people to carry water where it's hot and dry is not the REAL issue, but the message behind the effort is.

------------------

I agree THEORETICALLY that it's a case of enforcing our laws rather than running a case about behavior by Mexico, but it's not really in practicalities. Because there is no practical, realistic or even possible means by which our U.S. borders can be "closed" to illegal alien traffic and traffiking. It just can't be done. Even grubbing and undocumented status in the U.S. is preferable to some than what they face in their countries of origin and I don't think it's advisable to deteriorate our way of life for average residents inorder to discourage our country as destination for immigrants -- however, many from Central and Latin America have made that process a reality, unfortunately: parts of the country now resemble Mexico City and similar complete with all the same problems recreated here that the allegedly "left behind," only to recreate that here.

Which is what is now peaking in the experiences of many Americans. Wages depressed and repressed and it's all because of illegal immigrants available at down-market terms. Like I wrote earlier, I'll never buy a Ford again.

Consumers need to smarten up and stop indulging companies that employ illegal aliens. I hardly know where to begin in writing the long list here as to who that includes...

Tyson Chicken.Ford... (Below threshold)
-S-:

Tyson Chicken.

Ford.

Wal-Mart.

Your local gardeners.

Your local transportation department.

Doctor's offices.

Dentist's offices.

Property management companies.

Grocery stores/grocery store chains.

and probably most large manufacturers nationwide.

No one is penalizing those ... (Below threshold)
-S-:

No one is penalizing those who employ the...

forgot:

hotels and motels and hospitality industry altogether.

airlines, mass transits.

cruise ship industry.


Service industry in general is now well populated by employing illegal immigrants. We as a nation of consumers have to start making it very clear to commerce that we find it unacceptable and intolerable and that it has to stop. Otherwise, the problem continues.

I know that won't stop illegal immigration but if and when it becomes so foul to be here to the general public, it may make a difference. Along with border security and keen individual review -- like two trips to get a drivers' license and anyone who complains about "the inconvenience" involved needs to be withheld a license. I mean, the conditions have to be far more severe than they are now because as it is, many people keep the illegal immigration process in play by indulging the many excuses about it: too difficult, too challenging, too time consuming, too unfriendly, too, too...

The good ol' Chief is think... (Below threshold)
GSR:

The good ol' Chief is thinking out of the box and should be commended (and I understand that the plaudits are comming into New Ipswich from across the country). What a wonderful application of a rather benign law to draw attention to a very malignant issue.

I remember a wonderful book from the 80's entitled "Search for Excellence". In it, the authors wrote about successful companies - they coined a term "stick to the knitting", which simply put is "stick to the basics". It's a mantra that successful companies follow and clearly, this Chief understands its effectiveness.

Stick to the Knitting - arrest and deport illegal aliens - I'd say that's pretty basic and very effective...unlike this Real ID BS just passed by Congress, but that's a topic for another night.

mantis wrote:An... (Below threshold)
ryan:

mantis wrote:

And I wish people would lay off the Mexicans. When I was younger I worked in a number of restaurants in CA, and as a result have known a number of illegal immigrants. They're not bad people, and I'm willing to bet that for most of you, if you grew up in the shit they did and had the prospects they had at home, you would sure as hell find the rich country to your north that has plenty of work for you looking pretty damned attractive, legal or not.

I'll second that. The hatred that flares up on here sometimes is really disappointing.

And I also have to say that... (Below threshold)
ryan:

And I also have to say that Jay Tea saying this case represents an act of war is completely insane. Way to keep it rational Jay!

S:

You mentioned that you think people should boycott any business that employs illegal labor, and that is one possible solution. Or, people could realize the benefits they get from the labor, and how those people might be a positive part of our economy. I mean, all those businesses that you listed...thats quite a few Americans who are making money via this labor source. And quite a few Americans who are enjoying the products.

I'll second that. The ha... (Below threshold)
mesablue:

I'll second that. The hatred that flares up on here sometimes is really disappointing.

Pragmatism is not hatred.

Like mantis said, I've met and liked many illegals, but it does not change the fact that they are ILLEGAL.

When we start enforcing the current laws, we will then be able to come up with a better and more rational system of dealing with those who wish to come to our country.

Legally.

I agree THEORETICALLY th... (Below threshold)
bullwinkle:

I agree THEORETICALLY that it's a case of enforcing our laws rather than running a case about behavior by Mexico, but it's not really in practicalities. Because there is no practical, realistic or even possible means by which our U.S. borders can be "closed" to illegal alien traffic and traffiking. It just can't be done.

We can't do it but somehow Mexico has the resources to do it? We can do it, or at least do it well enough to slow them down and all law enforcement could be doing their jobs and picking them up for the Border Patrol. They could do their jobs and deport them. That doesn't rely on getting Mexico to do anything, one of the few things the government of Mexico does well is nothing, a concept the U.S. government seems like it's copying. There should be no uch thing as a "safe zone" like some cities have established. I'm not advocating stopping every Hispanic and checking their papers, but any time anyone in law enforcement encounters an illegal they should pick them up.

No, ryan, people should not... (Below threshold)
-S-:

No, ryan, people should not just accept whatever about illegal immigration. Blaming Americans for "employing illegal immigrants" is proving to be losing it's luster as a process to try to excuse illegal behaviors, such that now you and some others want us to just accept it and allow it to continue (start appreciating the benefits of illegal immigration, as you suggest).

That'd be denigrating our own ethics.

Some people, such as you have here, your earlier comment, project your own "hatred" and racist perspectives onto others about the issue of illegal immigration, and so far, I've heard and read all that can possibly be said by apologists and those who indulge illegal behaviors such as is illegal immigration. The various taunts are proving to be ineffective and now it's suggested we "just accept and appreciate" illegal behavior instead?

Illegal immigration has driven down wages nationwide, harmed our economy with billions of dollars of negative impacts related to it, and combined with the fact that illegal immigration is ILLEGAL BEHAVOR, is a violation/s of the immigration laws (and others) of the country (that's here, the U.S.A.), and all the hype about it helping the country is just more of the attempt to further indulge the illegal behavior.

If you cross the borders illegally and continue to remain here, illegally, reaping the many benefits of life in the U.S. but by illegal means, you're cheating and stealing. You've taken the place in line that others who approach immigration legally are observing, you're costing everyone else a lot of taxpayer money for related services and consequencs, and, most importantly, illegal immigrants declare by their behavior that they don't respect the requirements of our country's laws. Not a good indication of a character that makes for a good citizen.

And one illegal immigrant then assists and aids others and it's just an ongoing cultural denigration of our nation's laws, not to mention all the negative impacts it poses to citizens of the country.

Illegal immigration is the height of disrespect for the country and I see nothing honorable or even moderately respectable about illegal immigration. It has nothing to do with anyone's "race" and/or ethnicity, but is an issue of behavior.

<a href="http://www.washtim... (Below threshold)
bullwinkle:

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050513-122032-5055r.htm

That story contains the perfect example of who is to blame for the problem.

Hating criminal, illegal im... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Hating criminal, illegal immigrants does not equate to hating all Mexicans!! Jesus Christ Ryan and mantis, get a grip. Just because we don't subscribe to your beliefs doesn't make everyone here racist. Get a grip.

Hating criminal, illegal... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Hating criminal, illegal immigrants does not equate to hating all Mexicans!!

I realize that, and I never said anything about racism. And I was talking about hating criminal, illegal immigrants. I think illegal immigration is a problem, but at the same time I have sympathy for people who risk their lives to get out of a shitty situation just so they can work. I also have sympathy for blue collar Americans who are stuck now with a steady decline in available manufacturing jobs, forced to accept crappy jobs with lower pay, if any. If I tell you to have some sympathy for them am I calling you a racist?

S:Blaming Ameri... (Below threshold)
ryan:

S:

Blaming Americans for "employing illegal immigrants" is proving to be losing it's luster as a process to try to excuse illegal behaviors...

Uh...that makes no sense. Americans hire the people...we're the ones that encourage the whole thing. Why do you think they're here? Who do you think hires them? It's not a matter of "blaming", its a matter of whats happening. Look, you have to be realistic and realize that Americans are a big part of the equation here.

...such that now you and some others want us to just accept it and allow it to continue (start appreciating the benefits of illegal immigration, as you suggest).

No. First, I think more people need to realize what's happening. The rationale here is that it's just illegal workers faults', that they are just flooding over here by chance. I dont understand why so many of you get all pissed off when I say that part of the blame lies here. The motivation is provided here, by Americans, who hire tons of illegal workers. If the illegal workers weren't getting jobs, they wouldnt be coming here to the same degree.

You yourself listed all those businesses that hire these workers. So you know it happens, and alot. I'm not saying that illegal behavior needs to be dismissed, I'm saying that the current system clearly isnt working very well, and that maybe there are other ways to go about this.

I honestly think that your boycott suggestion would be one effective way of consumers really voicing their opinions about the matter. Put your money where your mouth is, as they say. It would be one way to go about it. But how many Americans are going to boycott all those places you listed??? Not many, IMO. And what does that tell us?

You keep reading me as being some sort of apologist for this. I'm not. I'm telling you that there is more to it than just blaming the immigrants. Hell, as has already been stated, if I was in the same position, making 10 dollars a day down in Mexico, I would probably take the risk for the chance to make that same amount per hour. Also, when I talk about the Americans who hire them, I'm not trying to deflect blame. Illegals break the laws, and they know it. But thats because the benefits they receive really pay off. Americans are part of the process, since they hire them.

I don't think this is some ideal situation by any means, but lets stop with the fairy tale version that puts all the blame on someone else. Our Border Patrol just isn't very effective. Along with that, Americans are hiring these workers all the time when they get here.

If you cross the borders illegally and continue to remain here, illegally, reaping the many benefits of life in the U.S. but by illegal means, you're cheating and stealing.

Ok. Let's say that a sign on some land says "No Tresspassing". You read and and understand it. But there is someone on that land waving you over, and telling you that they want you to work for them. They offer to pay you 10 times what you usually make. Even more, they are partial owners of that land. Can anyone say mixed signals? To me, there are a couple different messages being sent by Americans. It's not as clear cut as you make it, sorry.

And please spare me of telling me what is LEGAL and what is ILLEGAL. I know full well what the legalities are here. Laws are nice, but as you might have noticed, arent infallible, and don't always deal with every situation in the best manner. If they did, we wouldn't be talking about this. It's fine to bitch about what the laws are, but when they arent doing anything to solve a problem maybe it's time to look at why.

Not a good indication of a character that makes for a good citizen.

Right. Coming to a new land and working your ass off for a better life is so anti-American. I mean, we've never heard that story before.

Illegal immigration is the height of disrespect for the country and I see nothing honorable or even moderately respectable about illegal immigration. It has nothing to do with anyone's "race" and/or ethnicity, but is an issue of behavior.

Fine. But why can't you accept the fact that there are multiple sides? Why keep focusing only on the illegal workers? Change starts at home. Maybe you should talk to all the Americans who hire these workers, and tell them what you think about the matter. And talk to INS people, and ask them why so many illegal workers are here. It's not just because illegal workers like to break US laws.

Mike:Hating cri... (Below threshold)
ryan:

Mike:

Hating criminal, illegal immigrants does not equate to hating all Mexicans!! Jesus Christ Ryan and mantis, get a grip. Just because we don't subscribe to your beliefs doesn't make everyone here racist. Get a grip.

When you say that you hate "criminal, illegal immigrants" you are including people that I know. People that I have known well, who worked their goddamn asses off over here. I don't think that you would hate them if you knew them, and heard their stories, but then that would be treating them as humans. It's hard to hate some kid who's 17 and tells you that he just walked 3 days through the desert just to come up here and work all day. For me it is. I personally don't see how hating them is going to help at all.

If you have read what I've wrote on this issue carefully you would see that I am not in favor of illegal immigration. I'm in favor of looking at all the causes, and finding a way to address them, so that the issue can actually be dealt with.

So the main belief of mine that you don't seem to "subscribe" to is the idea that we should, as mantis already wrote, have some sympathy for these people.




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