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Koran-In-The-Crapper Scorecard - Drudge Edition

The Drudge Report nearly went to DefCon Siren with

NEWSWEEK ISIKOFF TOLD RESIGNATION WOULD NOT BE ACCEPTED

Since Matt has a history being first with the story, but often seriously off the mark (with a penchant for revisionism thrown in), it seemed appropriate to capture for posterity his "exclusive" claims. I've boiled them down to these five:
  1. A Newsweek executive claims an emotional Isikoff offered to resign from the magazine over the weekend, in a gesture to cool off the international situation.

  2. Newsweek's editors are standing firm behind reporter Michael Isikoff.

  3. Newsweek's top executives are standing behind reporter Michael Isikoff, though a little less firmly.

  4. A Newsweek source says, "Mike was told he would not be sacrificed, we are standing behind him 100%,

  5. White House staffers suspect Isikoff's source for the Quran report was from congress, not from the administration.
Wagering as to percentage of accurate information contained in the "flash" report and/or the likelihood that Drudge is whoring for the Washington Post Co. (Owners of Newsweek) may now commence...


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Comments (52)

I have no trouble believing... (Below threshold)
Dodd:

I have no trouble believing 2, 3, and 4. And I wouldn't be surprised to discover 5 is true and, additionally, that it was a Democrat. It's #1 that I remain skeptical about.

I agree with Dodd.... (Below threshold)
Just Me:

I agree with Dodd.

2, 3, and 4 make sense, and seem likely to be true. #5 is plausible, #1 not so much.

But then I admit I rarely read Drudge, and take anything he posts with a grain of salt.

Just out of curiousity - </... (Below threshold)
BumperStickerist:

Just out of curiousity -

Does Islam as a faith have exemptions or preclusions for its adherents when they are, say, captured or otherwise prevented from following a strict observance of their faith?

or, at a minimum, doesn't Islam provide for some sort of penance or other type of atonement once the detainee is no longer detained?

I'm going off my memory of Capt. Sir Richard Francis Burton's biography and his descriptions of Islam and Muslims - there was some mention of the faithful Muslims cutting beards, eating pork and engaging in other such non-Muslim behavior in an attempt to deceive.

Presumably, being held captive by the Infidel would provide the Muslim male with allowances for not praying facing towards Mecca, having a Koran that was less than pristine, et cetera ... et cetera ... certainly one would think that their faith would cushion the psychological trauma of witnessing such a barbaric act as putting a book in a toilet.


What is your main beef here... (Below threshold)
frameone:

What is your main beef here:

That US interogators threw Qur'ans in the toilet or that Newsweek appears to have lent official credence to reports that they did?

Gitmo detainess have reported, independent of each other, that the US was doing exactly what Newsweek reported. It's true that these detainees have their own agenda but its clearly documented and verified that US interrogaters at Guantanmo and elsehwere have engaged in far more physically demeaning and threatening behavior.

Most of you seem to have no problem with desecrating Islamic religious symbols during interogations. Indeed, I can find such suggests in other threads on this issue that would be enough to inflame Islamic religious radicals to violence.

And yet you guys are righteously attacking Newsweek for running with a report that one source had confirmed and other military sources refused to argue with? In its own account, Newsweeks editors knew the story was sensitive and so ran it by military officials to check their facts. At no time did these officials suggest that the report, true or not, should not be published because it was too sensitive. But now that's all any of you and this administration is saying.

Let me ask you:

Does it matter that this administration took us to war based on single sources and uncoroborated evidence of WMDs in Iraq?
Does it matter that a recent British intelligence memo indicates that Bush had decided that war was the only option as early July 2002 and that, to quote the memo, "the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy"?
Does it matter that the US is abusing prisoners in its custody, even to the point of death?
Does it matter that much of the rhetoric at this site and elsewhere about Islam and the Qur'an could play straight into the psy op needs of Islamic terrorists?


Gee Frameone way to stay on... (Below threshold)
Just Me:

Gee Frameone way to stay on topic here.

Honestly, I don't really think that tossing a Koran in the comode anywhere amounts to torture or cruelty.

Can't say that I would be pleased if somebody tossed a Bible in the toilet, but I dont worship the Bible, I worship the God who inspired it, and I certainly wouldn't be tempted to riot or murder because of it. Makes me think there is something screwed up in the principles of people who would not only riot and murder, but don't even murder those who are responsible.

My God teaches me to value human life over a book any day, even a book deemed to be Holy.

As for the other stuff. I would say the Bush administartion went to war with far more sourcing than Newsweek went to press with, and just look at the shit they stirred up.

You should check out my sit... (Below threshold)
Kid:

You should check out my site. Just click on my name.

How long until the moonbats... (Below threshold)
Jeff:

How long until the moonbats start concocting this as a Bush plot to take down Newsweek?

I'm holding my breath. It won't be that long to wait.

I agree that #1 appears sus... (Below threshold)
-S-:

I agree that #1 appears suspect -- at least, curiously speculative, as in, what ELSE are they going to say, what ELSE is Isikoff and others going to say (as in, "grandstanding" and "symbolic gestures").

#5 seems entirely likely, if not predictable. Dean comes to mind, although not in Congress (thank God). What with Reid, Dodd, Boxer, Kennedy, Biden, Kerry and so many more Democrats with little grasp on facts and a great big dose of "I need psychotropic drugs" shared by them all, it is not at all a challenge to imagine that some Democrats in Congress really hate the United States. They surely really hate the President.

Aren't they sworn to protect and defend? To Democrats, they prove every single day that what they think it means is their own asses. To hell with the country and everyone else in it.

I'm today disgusted by Democrats and their ongoing efforts to destroy the United States, by one means or another. They have their ugly media to do their bidding and they can't even dismiss those who are proven to be unethical and deceiving in published information.

This Newsweek thing is even moreso disgusting but I never thought that Drudge was a player in this group. I mean, honestly, it hasn't occured to me to think so. prior to reading what you just wrote here, this thread. Did I miss something?

Jeff, they already have. K... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Jeff, they already have. Keith Olbermann came out last night and stated that the Bush administration was setting up Newsweek the same way they set up CBS for the fake memo story!

frameone, where should I start. Just kidding, it would be impossible to talk sensibly to you. Everything you're asking is asked from a point that what you're stating is fact and not debatable. Instead of asking what were the sources that Bush had prior to the Iraq war, you ask:

Does it matter that this administration took us to war based on single sources and uncoroborated evidence of WMDs in Iraq?

Let me ask you, does it matter that you hate all the ideals the country of the United States stands for?
Does it matter that you are more willing to trust released detainees with an agenda then the US military?
Does is matter that you would rather blame the Bush administration for everything going on in the world?

Hmmm."That US inte... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

"That US interogators threw Qur'ans in the toilet or that Newsweek appears to have lent official credence to reports that they did?"

You have zero credibility "frameone".

Your "facts", aren't. Your points are completely false.

I'd debate you, but it would be pointless.

People who get the salient ... (Below threshold)
-S-:

People who get the salient aspects to this issue won't read much new information in this following article -- while, people who need to read more about the issue, won't read the article.

Here's the article:

Monday, May 16, 2005 11:56 a.m. EDT
GEN. MYERS: DETAINEE FLUSHED KORAN PAGES

BumperStickerist:I d... (Below threshold)
PTG:

BumperStickerist:
I don't know about Islam generally, but I used to hang out with Turkish soldiers who were observant Mohammedans. Some of them said they had to hunt wild boar and eat it as part of their survival training. They didn't think they were doomed as a result. And they had to shave in the service, even their beloved moustaches. Must be some sort of absolution for 'em.

Does it matter that this... (Below threshold)
penny:

Does it matter that this administration took us to war based on single sources

......the British and Russian intelligence both stated publically that they thought Saddam had WMD's. Did you miss that?

Does it matter that the US is abusing prisoners in its custody, even to the point of death?

Says who? Released jihadists with an agenda? Got some hard facts or are you planning a career with Newsweek?

Does it matter that much of the rhetoric at this site and elsewhere about Islam and the Qur'an could play straight into the psy op needs of Islamic terrorists?

You are kidding!! Haven't you noticed that just about just about anything triggers homicidal mayhem with the Religion of Peace - a naked ankle, Buddhist antiquities, adultery, Christians, Jews, dogs, booze, co-ed schools......the list could take hours.

Bullet therapy is the only cure for a terrorist's "psy op needs". Like I really give a damn about a terrorist's self-esteem.

pointless babel by frameone... (Below threshold)
bill:

pointless babel by frameone left out on purpose...

I think that this story is far worse than any that have gone before. Every nutcase Islamo-fascist tyrant will seize on this to feed their suicide bomber squads worldwide. What good could come from this?

It is getting past time for the moonbat squads in the Democrat party to stand down and think about the country, rather than their own aspirations for power.

The other reports of Koran ... (Below threshold)
Adjoran:

The other reports of Koran desecration have all come from released prisoners well after they are home. The Army can find NO record of a single complaint of such by prisoners at Gitmo.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that these allegations after the fact are coming from a similar source, fabricated for propaganda value. Even the Muslims got that much, which is why they never rioted on those reports. The left is too slow to understand this.

Newsweak RETRACTED the story, lads. Not "clarified" - as in "something was poorly phrased or edited to give the wrong impression" - and not "corrected" - as in "we made a serious factual error in an otherwise correct report" - but "RETRACTED," as in "we got it ALL wrong, sorry, never mind!"

"I would say the Bush admin... (Below threshold)
frameone:

"I would say the Bush administartion went to war with far more sourcing than Newsweek went to press with"

Holy crap! I should hope so! Just how low is your bar for declaring war?

It's unbelievable the extent to which you people have confused a single presidential administration with the country itself.

Only such complete conflation of policy and patriotism could produce a question such as this:

"Let me ask you, does it matter that you hate all the ideals the country of the United States stands for?"

How you can so blindly confuse criticism of the Bush administration with hatred for the country itself is beyond me. And are you seriously suggesting that leading prisoners around on a dog leash or making them believe they've been smeared with menstrual blood (two charges unchallenged by FBI investigations of Guantanamo interrogators) are consistent with American values? What values are those pray tell?

American soldiers and Army contractors have been charged with and convicted of serious crimes -- including wrongful death and murder -- against detainees in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay. Only someone deliberately lying to themselves could deny these facts. It's a fucking tragedy and yet you all are convinced that only individual soldiers and Newsweek deserve the blame?

Somehow the rage of the Muslim world is all Newsweek's fault? Doesn't anyone here give a shit that long before the Newsweek story this country was associated with torturing and abusing prisoners? Doesn't anyone care that AMERICA, the country we all claim to love, is torturing people?

Of course you don't. I read your posts and comments. You ocillate between condemning anyone who dare suggest that Americans are torturing anyone and then turn right around and suggest your own harsher treatment and call for "Bullet therapy." Why is it unAmerican to suggest that America shouldn't degrade and torture people, even our enemies? Why?

And please anyone who agrees with this:

"I'm today disgusted by Democrats and their ongoing efforts to destroy the United States."

... is a lunatic.

Doesn't anyone care that... (Below threshold)

Doesn't anyone care that AMERICA, the country we all claim to love, is torturing people?

Does the Geneva Convention have anything to say about us having to read Frameone's screeds?

Is that an anonymous Newswe... (Below threshold)
BorgQueen:

Is that an anonymous Newsweek executive?

Frameone -American soldiers... (Below threshold)
a lunatic:

Frameone -American soldiers and Army contractors have been charged with and convicted of serious crimes -- including wrongful death and murder -- against detainees in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay.....yet you all are convinced that only individual soldiers and Newsweek deserve the blame?

as opposed to charging and convicting those that didn't do it?

frameone:"Bullet t... (Below threshold)
penny:

frameone:

"Bullet therapy" has been demonstrated time and time again when dealing with the rabid homicidal to clinically be more effective than Prozac.

When we talk about treatments applicable to terrorists we're talking veterinarian solutions, my friend.

BorgQueen, priceless! Isik... (Below threshold)
BR:

BorgQueen, priceless! Isikoff failed in his frame up, so the loser exposes himself here.

Doesn't anyone care that... (Below threshold)
penny:

Doesn't anyone care that AMERICA, the country we all claim to love, is torturing people?

Stella!!!

I just bet you are some hyperly sensitive soul, chai or specialty green tea only, whose day is ruined when you spot someone mixing plaids and stripes.

Fess up?

Penny, I like your spunk! ... (Below threshold)
BR:

Penny, I like your spunk! And for the other domestic animals, didn't Jane Fonda star in a movie called "They shoot traitors, don't they?" Or am I getting my movies mixed up - maybe that was the Rosenbergs.

Anyone here care to explain... (Below threshold)
frameone:

Anyone here care to explain how your rants against Newsweek, and its hate-fueled drive to destroy America by inciting radical Islamic violence, jibes with what Defence Department spokesman Lawrence DiRita said on Saturday, as reported by AP:

"The nature of where these things occurred, how quickly they occurred, the nature of individuals who were involved in it, suggest that they may be organized events that are using this alleged allegation as a pretext for activity that was already planned," said DiRita.

"Does the Geneva Convention... (Below threshold)
Just Me:

"Does the Geneva Convention have anything to say about us having to read Frameone's screeds?"

If it doesn't we should quickly add an amendment, because it should.

Related item - Drudge links... (Below threshold)
BR:

Related item - Drudge links to an article today reporting Dan Rather and Mary Mapes accepting the Peabody Award on May 9th, 2005 for their "60 Minutes" show on Abu Ghraib.

The full story is not yet out on Rather and CBS's connection to the earlier setup in Afghanistan where a long-time CBS contributor masqueraded as US military, torturing Afghans in his own private "prison." If that had not back-fired, I suppose Rather would be getting the Nobel Peace Prize for exposing it.

American Who Ran Afghan Jail Says He Sourced CBS. Sept. 2004


"In a week in which it was burnt by at least one high-profile source, CBS News is being accused by another of having used and abandoned him. The Observer has learned that CBS News and Dan Rather made use of Jonathan (Jack) Idema, a former Green Beret, mercenary and rogue soldier, who was tried and sentenced on Sept. 15 to 10 years in an Afghan prison for operating a private jail and torturing civilians he claimed were Al Qaeda operatives.

Mr. Idema is now accusing CBS News of abandoning him after having what appears to have been an ad hoc arrangement with the mercenary soldier in which he used CBS equipment and personnel to transmit information to Mr. Rather for possible use in CBS broadcasts...."

In the same way, I wonder i... (Below threshold)
BR:

In the same way, I wonder if Newsweek's May 9th edition was pre-coordinated with the first reaction in Pakistan on May 6th. In light of the above quote from DiRita: if, as the dates seem to indicate, the organized events in the Muslim world were already planned prior to publication and yet hinged on the publication, what prior contact and coordination occurred between Newsweek's chain of sources and the organizers of the demonstrations? How did the organizers know about the forthcoming article?

Lawrence DiRita was obvious... (Below threshold)
penny:

Lawrence DiRita was obviously referring to the street theater turned typically an Islamic murderous events in Kabul - organized or spontaneous - who cares? What's your point?

No one tried to burn the Guggenheim or NYC down when Maplethorpe's "Piss Christ" was in town. Disgusting, but not worth a death in protesting as understood by our culture?

I don't fret at night over the burglar's "issues" like you do. I lock the door and respect my local police force.

frameone, you are hanging on like gum on a shoe. Either public schools failed you or you really are as suggested an executive at Newsweek or both.

Errata on date of Peabody A... (Below threshold)
BR:

Errata on date of Peabody Award: May 16th, not 9th.

Penny, I'm looking at the bigger picture of national security. If you have individuals in the US media collaborating or being used by "anonymous sources" to incite the enemy in specific, pre-arranged events, we'd better find out who they are.

How did the organizers ... (Below threshold)
penny:

How did the organizers know about the forthcoming article?

Excellent question.

How did that many illiterates all get that mad at a magazine, in English no less, and organized so seamlessly?

But, what decent jihadist isn't plugged into our mainstream media for talking points and flash point locals at this point?

Bottomline: the likes of CBS, Newsweek, the NYT's, and the other usual suspects are useful idiots.

Exactly, it's the "plugged ... (Below threshold)
BR:

Exactly, it's the "plugged into" point that should be investigated. That's always the vulnerability of an operation - the point of clandestine contact. I doubt Newsweek issued their article on the internet prior to publication. Would an actual paper copy have been in the hands of the Pakistani opposition politican, Imran Khan, on May 6th when he called the press conference to call attention to the article, which then gave the green light to the pre-organized demonstrations all over the Muslim world.

uh, frameD one...W... (Below threshold)
oej:

uh, frameD one...

We didn't start this fight. We're only defending ourselves. Think, if you can manage that...in the USA, you can burn the flag, stick a cross in a bucket of urine, curse the Pope, the Prez, and etc...and I'm supposed to be upset about the Quoran being in a toilet? Excuse me, but I'm more pissed that a toilet was desecrated with such.

oej

Re: investigation of Newsw... (Below threshold)
BR:

Re: investigation of Newsweek's sources: There is an interesting discussion at chicagoboyz.net on the pros and cons of a congressional investigation. I would lean more towards an FBI or Homeland Security investigation (or CTU, if we could recruit "Jack" Kiefer Sutherland :) ...he'd do what's necessary and get it done in 24 Hours!)

Gotta love frameone, I show... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Gotta love frameone, I show him/her/it how stupid his questions are by framing some stupid questions to ask him (worded like his) and frameone just goes off the deep end.

get a grip frameone. You're losing it. I know your looney leftist reality is collapsing all around you, but let's try and hold it together.

Just Me wrote:H... (Below threshold)
ryan:

Just Me wrote:

Honestly, I don't really think that tossing a Koran in the comode anywhere amounts to torture or cruelty.

Ok. But I'm sure you would agree that it's not good for the relations between the US and any Muslim nation. Desecration of religious symbols is usually a pretty serious matter...people don't take it lightly.

Can't say that I would be pleased if somebody tossed a Bible in the toilet, but I dont worship the Bible, I worship the God who inspired it, and I certainly wouldn't be tempted to riot or murder because of it.

Then it looks like you're really learning good thing from the Bible's teachings. I have this weird feeling that if a similar instance happened in some middle eastern country, there would be a number of Americans frothing at the mouth and calling for bombings. Disagree? Well, I've heard some amazingly violent things come from the mouths of fellow Americans. It's good to see that you are able to keep a clear head about it.

Makes me think there is something screwed up in the principles of people who would not only riot and murder, but don't even murder those who are responsible.

Hmmm...riots and murders have occured here in the United States, and innocent people have been killed in the process. So is there something screwed up with our principles too? Maybe making such broad generalizations isn't the greatest idea. Judge not lest ye be judged, etc.

My God teaches me to value human life over a book any day, even a book deemed to be Holy.

Does your God teach you to value ALL human life over a book any day?


Dear Mike,Frameone... (Below threshold)
ryan:

Dear Mike,

Frameone doesn't sound like someone who hates the United States, but someone who has their own beliefs about the war, and humanity, and what we're doing as a country. And that's perfectly respectable and healthy.

I can't believe that you answered his/her worries about the war in Iraq with such a judgmental and negative response:

Let me ask you, does it matter that you hate all the ideals the country of the United States stands for?

Where the hell did that come from? Just because you don't agree with framone's views doesnt mean that he/she must hate all the ideals of the US. Come on, stop being so paranoid. Maybe his/her arguments arent always perfect, but sometimes it's good to try to understand where the other person is coming from. That's how issues can get resolved.

I'm glad that you're perfectly happy with the reasons we went to war with Iraq, but not all people are. Do you believe that it was for humanitarian reasons, to save the Iraqi people? Or was it to save the US from attack? I would be interested to hear your beliefs on that at some point.

Personally I feel that it was more of a strategic and economic move, made to ensure a certain amount of stability in a valuable and volatile region. I also don't think that we would have deposed Hussein, despite all of his evils, had he been a cooperative dictator and done as we said.

Blaming Bush for everything that happens these days is lazy. I get really tired of hearing how people toe the line and blame Bush at the drop of a hat. The same rhetoric about WMD in Iraq was going around during the Clinton admin., and before.

Hmmm...riots and murders... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Hmmm...riots and murders have occured here in the United States, and innocent people have been killed in the process. So is there something screwed up with our principles too? Maybe making such broad generalizations isn't the greatest idea. Judge not lest ye be judged, etc.

Who's making broad generalizations? I do believe when we are talking about the rioters it is their principles that are screwed, not everyone's in that country. And yes, the rioters in this country have their principles screwed up as well. But nice try at mischaracterizing a point.

ryan, you don't get it. My questions had to do with frameone's style of debate. Their were ridiculous and close-minded on purpose. Their were written to insult, not debate, just like frameone did when he asked his stupid questions.

He didn't state worries about the Iraq war:

Does it matter that this administration took us to war based on single sources and uncoroborated evidence of WMDs in Iraq?

Is that a concern or an accusation? He wasn't arguing, he was attacking the Bush administration. My questions were intended to just make baseless accusations, like frameone's did.

I felt attacking Iraq was the next logical step, it made sense to remove Saddam from the global stage so he couldn't continue his quest for nuclear weapons. I believe that one of the only ways to rid that region of terrorists and religious extremism is to help establish democracy in the region itslef. And that's working, just look at the democratic movements in the Middle East.

Since interesting discussio... (Below threshold)
BR:

Since interesting discussions have taken place, but in simultaneous threads, here are links to the 6 threads related to Al Newsweek here at wizbang:

5/16/05 Quote Of The Day - We Didn't Start The Fire Edition.
5/16/05 Defending Newsweek.
5/16/05 Newsweek's Hail Mary?
5/16/05 The Hunt For Osama bin Laden Heats Up.
5/17/05 Newsweek's Fungible Editorial Standards.
5/17/05 Koran-In-The-Crapper Scorecard - Drudge Edition.

Since interesting discussio... (Below threshold)
BR:

Since interesting discussions have taken place, but in simultaneous threads, here are links to the 6 threads related to Al Newsweek here at wizbang:

5/16/05 Quote Of The Day - We Didn't Start The Fire Edition.
5/16/05 Defending Newsweek.
5/16/05 Newsweek's Hail Mary?

(cont'd)5/16/05 <a... (Below threshold)
BR:
The <a href="http://msnbc.m... (Below threshold)
BR:

The Periscope item in Newsweek's May 9th edition of sedition consists of only two paragraphs. The alleged abuses are in paragraph one. The big lie is in paragraph two ("These findings, expected in an upcoming report by the U.S. Southern Command in Miami.")

The consequences of Newsweek's and its source's irresponsibility in propagating this inflammatory lie are much more than what has been focused on re Afghanistan.

In Pakistan, where Imran Khan's May 6th press conference hinged on Newsweek's lie and gave the green light to the subsequent demonstrations worldwide, there are far worse consequences developing - to India and to the West. The inherent threat in a toppling of Pres. Musharraf is that he would be replaced by an extremist Islamic regime who can use and share Pakistan's nuclear capacity.

To illustrate the magnitude... (Below threshold)
BR:

To illustrate the magnitude of what's going on in Pakistan, I've put together a timeline from NYT article of 5/17/05:

5/6/05 (Friday) – Pakistani opposition politician, Imran Khan's press conference in Pakistan. [My comment: He was a well-chosen front man for this op – the country's ex-cricket star.]

5/6/05 "…in mass protests called by the Islamist parties, Pakistanis took to the streets holding aloft "death to America" banners…"

"For the next several days, the report dominated the front pages of English and Urdu-language newspapers in Pakistan and became the center of debate in the Pakistan Parliament."

5/7/05 (Saturday) – Musharraf's govt tries to do damage control with their own statement condemning the reported desecration and calling for an inquiry.

5/9/05 (Monday) - Official date of Newsweek edition containing the desecration allegations. But Imran Khan already had either a paper copy or a fax from his handlers which he used at his press conference 3 days earlier.

5/11/05 (Wednesday) etc. – Afghanistan: "On Wednesday, stone throwers were out on the streets. Along with local government offices, the Pakistani consulate was attacked apparently as a symbol of Pakistani aid for United States intervention in Afghanistan. By Friday, the protests had spread to several other towns in Afghanistan, and by nightfall, 17 people were dead and more than 100 wounded."

5/13/05 (Friday) - "…a coalition of Islamist parties seized on the Newsweek report to accuse General Musharraf's government of colluding with the West against Islam. But the criticism was not limited to the religious right. Legislators from across the political spectrum denounced the reported desecration, and by Friday, May 13, Parliament had passed a unanimous resolution condemning it."

5/14/05 (Saturday) Pentagon spokesman DiRita noted:
"The nature of where these things occurred, how quickly they occurred, the nature of individuals who were involved in it, suggest that they may be organized events that are using this alleged allegation as a pretext for activity that was already planned."

_____________________

Yes, organized events, and part of that organization was a hidden source using Newsweek in the same way OBL's minions use Al-Jazeerah to trigger events. The bait to the Islamic masses was in paragraph 1, but the code words signaling the green light for the worldwide operation to begin were in paragraph 2.

Hm, after I put together th... (Below threshold)
BR:

Hm, after I put together the time line last night, I saw this afternoon that World Net Daily's Aaron Klein is reporting along the same lines today:
Muslim protests planned in advance? Security official says Newsweek article served as trigger.

Mike -- When I ask question... (Below threshold)
frameone:

Mike -- When I ask questions, yeah they're loaded, but I would still really like to know what you guys really believe. For example:

Does anyone here know that the Washington Times recently apologized for an editorial cartoon published on May 6 that sparked protests in Pakistan for the way depicted Pakistan as a lap dog for American soldiers?
If you did know, why were there no posts or comments here about how the Washington Times was endangering our troops?

All I can see in this whole discussion is the blind furtherance of two agendas that existed long before the Newsweek article appeared:

Intimidate the free press
Dehumanize Islam


I think the silence on the Washington Times incident speaks for itself while Penny is a great example of the latter with her holier than thou comparisons of how American Christians responded to Piss Christ, a work of freaking art, and how Muslim's responded to the Qur'an story, which if true, is an act of abusive interrogation. If I read her right she's basically saying "Look, see, they're animals so who cares how we treat them. In the civilized West we only call for censorship so we're better." Awesome.

Awesome.

Mike:Who's maki... (Below threshold)
ryan:

Mike:

Who's making broad generalizations? I do believe when we are talking about the rioters it is their principles that are screwed, not everyone's in that country. And yes, the rioters in this country have their principles screwed up as well. But nice try at mischaracterizing a point.

I wrote that purposely as another broad generalization...that illustrates the problem with making such claims. It's best to stick to specifics. And I agree with the idea that rioters have screwed up principles, regardless of where they may be. I didnt mischaracterize the point, I just made it clear that the statement applies to many people.

ryan, you don't get it. My questions had to do with frameone's style of debate. Their were ridiculous and close-minded on purpose. Their were written to insult, not debate, just like frameone did when he asked his stupid questions.

Actually, Mike, I do get it, and that's why I responded to you. I think that all you're doing is creating more friction, as opposed to saying what you really think. Why reply with insults? Why not try to get your ideas, or at least your opinions across? To me, when you reply to insult, or to call people stupid, well, you're not much better. The point isn't to win, Mike, but to discuss and come to some sort of understanding.

Is that a concern or an accusation? He wasn't arguing, he was attacking the Bush administration. My questions were intended to just make baseless accusations, like frameone's did.

Look, he/she brought up a subject that obviously matters to them. Maybe you should attempt to understand why it matters, as opposed to making a knee jerk reaction and calling it a baseless accusation. The whole WMD thing was a little shady, to say the least. Your questions help turn debates into flame wars. You can disagree without calling people stupid.

I agree completely that democracy, real democracy, is what will help curb terrorism in the region. And I agree that the world is better off without Hussein, definitely. I guess I thinkt that we could have gone about the whole thing a little differently, and it may have "looked" better in the eyes of others. I kinda wish that the US wasn't getting branded as the big freaking villain all the time.

"I felt attacking Iraq was ... (Below threshold)
frameone:

"I felt attacking Iraq was the next logical step, it made sense to remove Saddam from the global stage so he couldn't continue his quest for nuclear weapons. I believe that one of the only ways to rid that region of terrorists and religious extremism is to help establish democracy in the region itslef. And that's working, just look at the democratic movements in the Middle East."

Mike I'm going to assume that while attacking Iraq might have been "the next logical step" that you also believe that war should only be the last resort. If I assume incorrectly let me know. At the very least Bush told the American people that he believed war should only be a last resort. That's what he told us at least. Because according to a recently revealed British intelligence memo our own allies, the British, were convinced that Bush has decided war was the only option in July 2002 and that "the intelligence was being fixed to fit the policy." Google it, read the memo yourself.

Okay. It is also clear that US, British, French and Russian intelligence were all receiving their information about WMDs in Iraq from the same group of Iraqi dissidents coordinated by Achmed Chalabi. I mean Chalabi has as much as admitted that he played the US like a fiddle because only Bush was willing to go to war over evidence that the CIA was uncertain about. Why? Because Bush had already decided he was going to war. All he needed was a way to sell it. So Bush not only lied about war as the last resort, he was willing to use lies to make his case for war.

Now I don't mean to rehash old news but war is not the only solution to the troubles of the world. It is especially not the solution to troubles that don't actually exist. It is simply overreaching to suggest that our invasion of Iraq has sparked some kind of "Arab Spring" or to suggest that there wasn't and still isn't a better, cheaper less deadly way of promoting democracy in this region or any region of they world.

But you guys want to jump on Newsweek ...

BR wrote:The in... (Below threshold)
ryan:

BR wrote:

The inherent threat in a toppling of Pres. Musharraf is that he would be replaced by an extremist Islamic regime who can use and share Pakistan's nuclear capacity.

Imagine that, a dictator inspiring a radical and extreme regime? Never heard of that before.

Musharraf may be working with the US, but the guy is a dictator. Democracy doesn't have the most firm hold over there. Steps have been made, but I have my doubts about how "fair" things have been. It was only a few years back that Musharraf took over via coup...in '99.

So yes, the threat of some extremist group taking over is pretty high. Dictators (Hussein, Somoza, etc.) equal repression and corruption, which breeds violence and terrorism. What a great pattern.

frameone:Becaus... (Below threshold)
ryan:

frameone:

Because Bush had already decided he was going to war. All he needed was a way to sell it. So Bush not only lied about war as the last resort, he was willing to use lies to make his case for war.

I dont really agree with you that Bush was the one who pushed for this. Read the commission report, and you'll see that Bush wasn't all that sure about going into Iraq, and that namely Wolfowitz was telling him it was the time to attack. The same people who wanted it to happen in 2002 were pressuring Clinton before that, and for the very same reasons (WMD's). Read about the Project for the New American Century, if you haven't already.

Ryan -- The recent... (Below threshold)
frameone:

Ryan --

The recently released British intelligence memo (actually official notes on a British intelligence briefing) suggests that in July 2002 it was clear that Bush had made up his mind he was going to take the country to war against Iraq. A quote from the memo -- written in July 2002 -- itself:

"C reported on his recent talks in Washington. There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy. The NSC had no patience with the UN route, and no enthusiasm for publishing material on the Iraqi regime's record. There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action."

Again, this is what our allies understood to be the official position of Washington in July of 2002 while Bush and Company were still telling the American people that war was only the last resort and all efforts were being made to avoid it.

Editor of Newsweek Internat... (Below threshold)
BR:

Editor of Newsweek International, Fareed Zakaria, called for Gen. Boykin's firing in the U.S. Edition of Newsweek, 10/27/03, reprinted at his site, fareedzakaria.com.

Fareed Zakaria's article is titled: "And He's Head of Intelligence?" and starts out with these 2 paragraphs:

"President Bush's commission on public diplomacy recently noted that in nine Muslim and Arab nations only 12 percent of respondents surveyed believed that 'Americans respect Arab/Islamic values.' Such attitudes, the commission argued, create a toxic atmosphere of anti-Americanism that cripples U.S. foreign policy and helps terrorists. To address the problem the commission suggested a major reorganization of the American government, hundreds of millions of dollars of funding and the creation of a new cabinet position. I have a simpler, more urgent suggestion: fire William Boykin.

William Boykin is the general who has recently been appointed to a senior Defense Department post. Over the last two years the general has given dozens of addresses to evangelical Christian groups in which, describing his battle with a Somali (Muslim) warlord, he has said: 'I knew that my God was bigger than his God. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol.' … A few more of these and Osama bin Laden won't need to make videos anymore. He can just put together the greatest hits of Boykin, Franklin Graham, Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and they will make his point nicely—that Americans see all Muslims as enemies. Oh, and here is a quick refresher course for the Pentagon intelligence chiefs: Islam was founded, in part, as a reaction against idol worship and rigorously prohibits any graven images…."

******
Interesting writing from a Newsweek editor. "Idol worship" - Hm. As in worshipping a book? Fire a US General? Hm, wouldn't OBL love that. Fire a US General who had then been promoted to a high post in intelligence? Hm, wouldn't Russia, China and their satellites like North Korea be delighted!

I wonder how the Muslim street got to know of Gen. Boykin's private speech in his church? Could it be that the MSM, even Newsweek, put a wired megaphone out to the world?

Nope, Osama bin Laden doesn't need to make videos anymore, Mr. Zakaria. Why would he, when he's got Newsweek doing it for free… or was it free?

Amrika the game is up!<br /... (Below threshold)

Amrika the game is up!
you have lost credibility in the world sphere on a scale that would make the Enron collapse small fry. The usa brand has dived forever and your arrogant denial has sown the seeds for a very unfortunate and black harvest.It is a pity to have squandered such a blessed existence, but that is that. Or as the french might say "c'est ca! "

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Alpha to Omega, Alpha to Om... (Below threshold)
BR:

Alpha to Omega, Alpha to Omega

On a blue green planet
far from the center
we play a mortal game
over and over

Like a lost tribe
on some remote island
once a penal colony
the guards long gone

Forgotten how we got here
divided against each other
fighting ghosts of yesteryear

But soon there'll be a reawakening
all seriousness with laughter evaporating
as we realize there is no alpha... or omega...

***




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