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Pissing on three thousand graves

If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention.

(Update: Links fixed. Thanks, fatman.)
(Update 2: Where are my manners? Thanks for the tip, Joe Goat.)


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» FFGC, Get It? linked with A Crying Shame

» JackLewis.net linked with Around the Blogosphere

» Darleen's Place linked with Burying 9/11

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» Baseball Crank linked with WAR: This Is Wrong

» Fresh Politics linked with The Second Hijacking

» Big Cat Chronicles linked with World Trade Center memorial off-track (update)

» larry borsato linked with The Ultimate Guilt Complex.

Comments (31)

Honestly I am not all that ... (Below threshold)
Just Me:

Honestly I am not all that surprised that this is what is happening.

I think I would rather just see another building with a nice plaque than that garbage.

Jay, the fifth, seventh and... (Below threshold)
fatman:

Jay, the fifth, seventh and eighth links don't work.

If I said anything else, you'd have to delete it.

I never got past the second... (Below threshold)
MrEd:

I never got past the second link. I'm outraged enough. My question is, to whom do I send my "ahem" strongly worded letter of vehement protest? Don't just get me pissed, give me the coordinates of someone(s) on whom I can piss.

Why the hell can't we keep ... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Why the hell can't we keep f*ckin' politics out of this. The 3000 people that died that day had nothing to do with politics, they did nothing to provoke their deaths, and did nothing that warranted their killing.

Those who feel we need to explain what happened instead of honoring those who died have a serious disconnect when it comes to memorials. They also could use a severe ass whopping, after which we could explain to them (considering that is what they like to hear) that we beat the sh*t of out them because they are vapid wastes of space that insult our existence.

Follow the money folks. The... (Below threshold)

Follow the money folks. The IFC was chosen because it was the best financed of the groups looking to fill the space set aside for cultural events at the site.

Now, of course that financing is due to one George Soros, whose anti-US screeds are increasingly well known, and whose backers have interests other than remembering those lost on 9/11.

It is up to the LMDC, the Port Authority, the Governor of NY, and Mayor Bloomberg to get this right. And so far, they've all looked the other way - which helps explain why nothing permanent has been built at the site after nearly 4 years.

MrEd, go to the fourth link... (Below threshold)
fatman:

MrEd, go to the fourth link. GOPBloggers has a list of phone #s for Mayor Bloomberg, Gov. Pataki and others.

After all of this, I think ... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

After all of this, I think the Donald had it right. Why not rebuild a bustling WTCII on that site and include a large, tasteful memorial for all to see? I think a rebuilt active center of commerce would demonstrate clearly the ability to overcome. It suggests optimism and doesn't diminish (I don't think) the lives lost on 9/11. The addition of an appropriate, physically imposing memorial to 9/11 victims on the same site would complete the project , help indemnify the loss, and secure the historical significance of that piece of soil. I have to agree with Mike above, I am tired (actually angry) of these bozos who are always alooking to parasitize tragedy to advance their twisted agenda. And the spineless politicians are just as bad, if not worse, for their passivity.

Excuse me, but in Gitmo, ou... (Below threshold)
shark:

Excuse me, but in Gitmo, our soldiers have to wear a fucking pair of gloves while handling the Koran. The graves of the 3000 are already floating in a sea of piss- a sea of piss that started flowing on 9/12 when the first person asked "why do they hate us?"

This? This is a mere drop in the bucket.

Speaking of which, where is... (Below threshold)

Speaking of which, where is Rachel Corrie buried?

Unbelieveable... (Below threshold)

Unbelieveable

I must say that I'm not too... (Below threshold)
whocares:

I must say that I'm not too outraged right now. This is a far from tasteful memorial, but as I've said before, you righties lowered the bar. You still don't chastise GW for using 9/11 for a political opportunity to instill fear in our hearts towards Iraq who had nothing to do with said incident as well as to promote his pre-planned assault on said sovereign nation. In my oppinion only, you're whining about the elite left rings hollow in my ears just as how our whining about the elite right rings hollow in your ears. I know that GW could be audio taped saying that he pre-planned this war with Iraq under false pretenses, and you'd still be whinning about how the left is trying to take out the right and that they were unjustified in taping GW, or make up some looney conspiracy theory, you know, just like you accuse us of. So, please commence with your lefties are traitors diatribe, and I'll do the the opposite. The world's still turning, so shove your outrage up your ass, you'll live a few days longer.

A damb shame. I hope... (Below threshold)

A damb shame.
I hope that they provide a back door to the victim’s names, because there is no way I want to go threw that "gateway". Why are the names of the victims chiseled in just concrete? Unless it is a piece of the original foundation, concrete is a huge slap in the face, they could at least use something tasteful; it is one of the cheapest and ugliest things on earth!

I am getting tiered of the museums that are just "high-tech, multimedia tutorial" Why should I go clear across the states to see something they can stream to my PC? I want to see something tangible, parts of the plane, what is left of an elevator, the fire truck that had fire fighters trapped in it, a police officer's hat, the flag that was raised by our fire fighters... something that had meaning and showed the horror and reality of this tragedy. High-tech multimedia could be used for a VR sim of what the Twin Towers looked like inside, before this crime. Let a generation 'see' size and magnificence of the lobby. Let them "see" NYC from the top of the towers. They will never be able to see the wonder that many (including myself, I wish I had seen them) took for granted.

What they want to do is remove the reality of this tragedy, and high-tech, multimedia museums are great for that, and they know it. If you can’t touch it, it is harder to believe it is real.

whocares aka Joser-rhymes-w... (Below threshold)
fatman:

whocares aka Joser-rhymes-with-loser:

Go fuck yourself.

And as I said to that asshole frameone after I made the same suggestion to him, you're not worth a more eloquent response.

Actually Joser doesn't rhym... (Below threshold)
whocares:

Actually Joser doesn't rhyme with loser. It does ehyme with poser though if it makes you feel any better. It's too bad you couldn't address any of the issues I brought up, but it seems typical of Mr. Fatty.

While my poltical views re ... (Below threshold)
circlethewagons:

While my poltical views re 9/11 and Iraq might be closer to whocares then I care to admit (oops, I just did), I agree with Mike above; leave politics out of this whole thing. Any 9/11 related memorial should be a tribute purely to the people who died that day. That's it. All of this other junk doesn't belong there and its an embarassment that some bozos think it does.

whocares aka Joser-rhymes-w... (Below threshold)
fatman:

whocares aka Joser-rhymes-with-loser:

The only thing I responded to was your suggestion that we conservatives shove our outrage up our collective asses. All the rest was just the same warmed over bullshit you've been serving up for at least as long as I've been visiting this site.

fatman-rhymes-with-duhnuhnu... (Below threshold)
whocares:

fatman-rhymes-with-duhnuhnuhnuhnuhnuhnuh-duhnuhnuhnuhnuhnuhnuh-Crapman! Thanks for bringing up bullshit by the way Mr. fatty crapman. I decided to be a little creative with my rhyming scheme as well, for you seem to lack a grasp of the English language. Don't worry, I've tutored ESL for 6 years, and I'm more than happy to help you out even though you're a right wing yes man pig. Sorry for all of you who don't appreciate my quite immature response, but it seems like this is the only way to get Mr. craphead's attention that retalitory responses that add no intellectual weight to a discussion start to sound like this after awhile because I've had to deal with his shit as long as he's had to deal with mine. But, I'm not too proud to admit that I did get a nice warm feeling the first few times that the fattie crabby pattiemeister blew a gasket.

By the way, would you like ... (Below threshold)
whocares:

By the way, would you like me to go by Joser again, since you seem to have a liking for the name? I'm sure you wouldn't want that if you knew how I got that nickname. I'm rather proud of the reason actually.

It sounds like a perfectly ... (Below threshold)

It sounds like a perfectly reasonable and appropriate project to me. It was, afterall, the WORLD Trade Center located in the most diverse and greatest city in the world. Don't we want to celebrate freedom? Isn't freedom what we're all about?

And since when is 50,000 sw. ft. "meager"? That's a full acre+ in the middle of downtown Manhattan.

9/11 happened to all of us, not just you deranged wingnuts. It is clear that you learned NOTHING on that terrible day.

Thanks for the tip, fatman.... (Below threshold)
MrEd:

Thanks for the tip, fatman. It's depressing seeing all this argumentative bickering. It's really not worth addressing, but I can't help myself. Iraq didn't HAVE to have been involved. The world changed with 9/11, and the president decided (rightly so, IMHO) that the time to enforce the SEVENTEEN UN RESOLUTIONS had come. So he did. You may recall his offer to let Saddam leave the country and turn over the government. Saddam chose the war, because he thought he could bluff. In the immortal words of a great man, "He counted on America to be passive. He counted wrong." C'mon, libs, it's not that hard. You can figure it out.

"Chiseled in concrete" is b... (Below threshold)

"Chiseled in concrete" is but one of many mistakes made by that vacuous waste of space Debra Burlingame who was responsible for that poorly written, factually inaccurate, hateful screed on WSJ Online. It's no wonder Jay Tea and the Malkins linked to it - it is written at approximately their intellectual level.

I think the ideal way to ce... (Below threshold)
Wendigo:

I think the ideal way to celebrate freedom (or whatever it is we wanted to do) would have been building a new World Trade Center, right there. No gaudy "Freedom Tower" full of post-modern architecture and wasted space and resources; a building (or even twin towers) that could serve exactly the same purpose the former trade center had.

Memorial could be on the first floor. In the back. Like you'd have to go past the elevators and stairs and information desk to get there, but it would be indicated out in front.

And I see I've been preceded in this sentiment. Bully for that.

Okay, Joser-rhymes-with-los... (Below threshold)
fatman:

Okay, Joser-rhymes-with-loser or whocares or whatever you're calling yourself today, let's start with the names.

I call myself "fatman" (no Mr. necessary, thank you) for the obvious reason: I'm fat. It's something I've learned to accept and if anybody else has a problem with that, they know exactly what part of my red, rosy, Irish anatomy they can kiss. As for why I call you "Joser-rhymes-with-loser" it goes back to some particularly idiotic comment you posted (I forget which one; there have been so many). If you don't want to be called "Joser" anymore, fine. If you do, also fine. And if you feel the need to share with us just how you got the name, go for it. I could use a good laugh.

As for being the cause of my "blown gasket", don't flatter yourself. Said gasket was already in tatters by the time I got to the first of your bile-filled screeds in this thread. I was looking for someone to take it out on. You were handy. I'd normally apologize for doing that, but in your case I'll make an exception.

The reason I engage in insults and ad hominem attacks when dealing with you is because that's all I've ever seen you do, so I figured that's the language you understand. I'm perfectly capable of engaging in reasoned, thought out debate with people who want do the same, no matter what their political leanings. If you want to debate on that level, show me that you're capable of it and I'll respond in kind. But pardon me if I don't hold my breath while I'm waiting.

9/11 happened to all of ... (Below threshold)
shark:

9/11 happened to all of us, not just you deranged wingnuts

Really? Where the FUCK were you on that day as I was running through the Manhattan streets with the crowds scared for our lives?

Just asking is all...

So, this is what Hillary Cl... (Below threshold)
-S-:

So, this is what Hillary Clinton and Bubba have been up to...

This is probably the most offensive thing, yet, that the Left has done...

Terrible. Truly, terrible.

Jay... I couldn't get past ... (Below threshold)

Jay... I couldn't get past the first link. You are sooooo right! It was laughable the way the WSJ is stil trying to tie the war in Iraq to 9-11.

Iraq had no ties to Al Qaeda. Osama and Saddam hated each other. Al Qaeda had zero terrorists in Iraq. Now, the daily tv footage of Americans waging war in a muslim country is the best recruiting poster Osama could ask for!

All you commie pinko socialists who love spending American tax money on foreign adventures -- open up your wallets and pay the $300 billion yourselves!

I read that piece by Debra ... (Below threshold)
Robert:

I read that piece by Debra Burlingame.
She's upset because her idea was outvoted.

Boo Hoo, Debra.
You sound like those whiny Dems still crying about Bush stealing the 2000 election.

I think I can speak for all Republicans when I say, "Get over it!!"

whocares:you proba... (Below threshold)
ryan:

whocares:

you probably wouldnt get involved in flame wars if you werent on here instigating. I understand the points you are making, but telling people to shove their outrage up their asses isnt going to create any sympathy for your ideas. maybe you should just try to treat others, even those with different views, with respect.

fatman: come on dude, i know you're above that sort of engagement.

Personally, I like some of the ideas for the memorial, but thats just me. I understand why some of you would want to leave the politics out, but then...this is one of the most politically charged events of our time, so thats not gonna be easy.

There is a clear link between other tragedies and the one that happened to us, IMO. The holocaust, the treatment of the native americans, 9/11...all are historical events that were terrible, and that we can learn from. I think that we can build a memorial that pays tribute to the innocent americans who lost their lives, while also connecting that tragedy to the broader scope of human history. I like the idea, since it seems like an attempt to link the world community instead of separate it. We are all in this together, after all.

However, I fully understand why some people feel that a certain agenda is being pushed, and I understand why they dislike the proposed ideas. It's a really powerful and important subject, and the opposing voices have as much say in the matter as anyone...or they should.

I think that a triumphant memorial, one that shows that we americans havent succumbed to the terror of 9/11, would be one that emphasizes freedom, humanity, and respect for ALL people. I think that would show that we have risen above, and survived, the hatred that was 9/11. I'm not as interested in a memorial that makes it seem as if we are the only ones suffering in the world, or that we are somehow separate.

Before any of you freak out and start the name calling, remember that these are my opinions, and by no means do I feel that my ideas are the only "right" ideas.

ryan: I don't have... (Below threshold)
fatman:

ryan:

I don't have a problem with the International Freedom Center's plans to "take us on a journey through the history of freedom" per se. I do suspect that, given the roster of its backers (Tom Bernstein and Michael Posner of Human Rights First, Anthony Romero of the ACLU, George Soros, et.al.), the IFC will end being a propaganda mill for the "America is the focus of evil in the world" crowd. But that's alright. Everybody has a right to be heard.

But not at Ground Zero.

My own preference would be to rebuild the Twin Towers, taller and stronger than ever. To thumb our noses at those who attacked us on 9-11. And to incorporate a tribute to the innocent victims of that attack.

But not at Ground Zero.

The thought of putting up anything but a memorial to the 3,000 people who died that day in New York City, Washington,D.C. and especially Shanksville, PA (not far from where I'm typing this) is as repugnant to me as setting up an amusement park at Auschwitz. Auschwitz stands as a memorial to those who died because one of the most evil men in the history of the world decided that their races (Jews, Gypsys, Slavs, etc.) were unfit to live. The WTC Memorial should stand as a memorial to those who died because one of the most evil men in the history of the world decided that they were unfit to live because of their religion(s), race(s), lifestyles or just because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. And before anyone gets spastic over the comparison, remember: even Hitler had to start somewhere.

As for your attempts at peace-making, they are appreciated. As I said before, I prefer not to engage in insult-and-ad hominem-laden exchanges; they're usually counter-productive. But I also said "If...(someone else) starts the festivities, I can get down with the best of them (see Joser, rhymes with loser)". You may have noticed that Joser now uses the handle "whocares". As I also said (in my last comment), if Joser/whocares wants to engage in a serious debate I can accommodate him/her and happy to do it; if not, well I'm a former union shop steward (Teamsters), the son (Teamsters--same local) and grandson (Steelworkers) of shop stewards, and the great-grandson of a an Irish Democratic ward chairman. Fighting dirty comes as naturally to me as breathing. And if Joser/whocares wants to fight dirty, I'll be happy to accommodate him/her in THAT, too.

fatman:your points... (Below threshold)
ryan:

fatman:

your points about ground zero make alot of sense. i fully understand what you are saying, and am mulling the ideas over in my head. i totally agree that the idea of one group with a specific agenda using that site to benefit their cause is NOT what should be happening. what you're saying makes sense.

i wasnt trying to come down on you...so far you have been one of the coolest and most reasoned voices on here, and that exchange with joser/whoever really went bad quick. i have to admit that he does have some good points, but they would be better received if it wasnt for all the overt antagonism. Part of debate is learning how to make your points without being an asshole, and frameone and joser are still working on that.

The WTC Memorial should stand as a memorial to those who died because one of the most evil men in the history of the world decided that they were unfit to live because of their religion(s), race(s), lifestyles or just because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I agree, and I fully understand your desire to have the memorial undiluted with agendas and politics. Point well received.

-ryan

ryan: I understand... (Below threshold)
fatman:

ryan:

I understand what you were trying to do and I appreciate it. And normally I wouldn't let someone like that get to me. But after I read Jay Tea's original post and links, I was thoroughly pissed and looking to to take it out on somebody. That's when whocares showed up and shot his mouth off as if on cue.

Anyway, thanks again.




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