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Moonbats On Parade - Downing Street Memo Edition

The Washington Post's Dana Milbank covers Rep. John Conyers's Downing Street Memo PR stunt yesterday in, Democrats Play House To Rally Against the War:

In the Capitol basement yesterday, long-suffering House Democrats took a trip to the land of make-believe.

They pretended a small conference room was the Judiciary Committee hearing room, draping white linens over folding tables to make them look like witness tables and bringing in cardboard name tags and extra flags to make the whole thing look official.

Rep. John Conyers Jr. (D-Mich.) banged a large wooden gavel and got the other lawmakers to call him "Mr. Chairman." He liked that so much that he started calling himself "the chairman" and spouted other chairmanly phrases, such as "unanimous consent" and "without objection so ordered." The dress-up game looked realistic enough on C-SPAN, so two dozen more Democrats came downstairs to play along.

Predictably it degenerated into a forum for moonbattery.
The hearing was only nominally about the Downing Street Memo and its assertion that in the summer of 2002 Bush was already determined to go to war and was making the intelligence fit his case. Joseph C. Wilson IV, a former ambassador whose wife was outed as a CIA operative, barely mentioned the memo in his opening statement. Cindy Sheehan, who lost a son in Iraq, said the memo "only confirms what I already suspected."

...The session took an awkward turn when witness Ray McGovern, a former intelligence analyst, declared that the United States went to war in Iraq for oil, Israel and military bases craved by administration "neocons" so "the United States and Israel could dominate that part of the world." He said that Israel should not be considered an ally and that Bush was doing the bidding of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.

At which point America's worst Congressman (Rep. Jim Moran) and others probably cheered. A handful of hardcore lefties braved the conspiratorial media blackout to watch the show.
At Democratic headquarters, where an overflow crowd watched the hearing on television, activists handed out documents repeating two accusations -- that an Israeli company had warning of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks and that there was an "insider trading scam" on 9/11 -- that previously has been used to suggest Israel was behind the attacks.

The event organizer, Democrats.com, distributed stickers saying "Bush lied/100,000 people died." One man's T-shirt proclaimed, "Whether you like Bush or not, he's still an incompetent liar," while a large poster of Uncle Sam announced: "Got kids? I want yours for cannon fodder."

Conyers's firm hand on the gavel could not prevent something of a free-for-all; at one point, a former State Department worker rose from the audience to propose criminal charges against Bush officials. Early in the hearing, somebody accidentally turned off the lights; later, a witness knocked down a flag. Matters were even worse at Democratic headquarters, where the C-SPAN feed ended after just an hour, causing the activists to groan and one to shout "Conspiracy!"

Why they didn't invite former Department of Labor chief economist, Morgan Reynolds P.H.D, to explain what really happened on 9/11 is mystifying. The true believers (or more accurately "non-believers") were already in attendance. Think of the fun they could have had...

In their moment in the spotlight the liberal blogosphere's Congressional water carriers managed to act like complete buffoons, which should surprise no one.

Previous Wizbang Downing Street Memo coverage.


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Comments (282)

Rep. Jim Moran - can you sp... (Below threshold)

Rep. Jim Moran - can you spot the typo in his name?

Haha - you're an idiot... (Below threshold)
Brian:

Haha - you're an idiot

Where was Bagdhad Bob? Cer... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Where was Bagdhad Bob? Certainly he would have given a much-needed sense of credibility to the hearing.

On your article:"Why... (Below threshold)

On your article:
"Why they didn't invite former Department of Labor chief economist, Department of Labor chief economist, Morgan Reynolds P.H.D"

The hearing is an "open invitation". Everyone (senate,congress, white house) is welcome to attend. See http://www.downingstreetmemo.com/news.html


Democratic hearing on
Downing Street Memo/Minutes
and Pre-war intelligence

On Thursday June 16, 2005, Rep. John Conyers, Jr., Ranking Member of the House Judiciary Committee, and other Congress Members held a hearing on the Downing Street Minutes and related evidence of efforts to cook the books on pre-war intelligence.

After the hearing, Congressman Conyers delivered his letter to the President with the signatures of over 540,000 Americans and 122 members of Congress. Not content to stop there, Conyers has pledged to keep his campaign going, and to personally see to it that every additional signature is delivered to the White House.

The hearing will be re-broadcast on C-SPAN 2 Friday night (6/17) at 8:00pm EST.
Don't miss it!

No, Brian, that's not it.</... (Below threshold)

No, Brian, that's not it.

But thank you for playing!

It's clear: Bush is a marr ... (Below threshold)
Joe:

It's clear: Bush is a marr murdering liar. All
republicans lie. IMPEACH ALL REPUBLICANS.

I'm sure Michael Moore was ... (Below threshold)
Peter:

I'm sure Michael Moore was running the camera.

I'm sure Michael Moore was ... (Below threshold)
Peter:

I'm sure Michael Moore was running the camera at the, er, conference.

I agree with Brian. You're... (Below threshold)
Mike:

I agree with Brian. You're an absolute idiot. You can continue to drink from the right wing Kool-Aid fountain of self imposed ignorance but in the end you'll still not have a clear understanding of the truth.

The beginning of the end of... (Below threshold)
Bill Maxwell, FBI:

The beginning of the end of the Republican control of Washington. ;)

This morning I saw a garbag... (Below threshold)
Meezer:

This morning I saw a garbage truck. Just an ordinary truck, picking up peoples' garbage. A truck driven by union garbage guys - one of the strongest unions around here (NW Indiana, close to Chicago). It had two little American flags taped to the mirrors and "support the troops" stickers. I pulled over and asked what they thought of the war in Iraq. They said it didn't sound too good but that we had to beat the bastards.
The Democratic party leaders seem totally unaware of people like these. They care nothing for them, scorn them; their tried and true constituents. Can 10% of a party really run the whole show?
For how long?

A Republican is a person wh... (Below threshold)
Bill a Viet Vet:

A Republican is a person who will support any war he doesn't have to invest his children in or can profit from. Clinton lied about a person matter and it doesn't matter. Bush lies about War and thousand die. Try to remember that if you can get your head out of Bush's Nazi ass.

Hmmm.It's moonbat ... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

It's moonbat mating season.

Ahhh spring. When moonbats migrate to their home in Washington D.C. and other urban environs. Watch as they make their nests in awkward unconfortable places, and then spend endless hours justifying such placements. Listen to their mating calls as moonbats seek out one another in a loving embrace of shared values.

Listen? Can you hear the loons?

"Republicans are Evil!"
"Bush HitlerMcChimpy!"

Ahh. The sounds of moonbat love.

Here's what I want to know.... (Below threshold)

Here's what I want to know. What would the reaction of the Rightie Blogosphere and the press in general have been if Clinton had locked the White House gates against a senior Republican Member of Congress bearing a letter co-signed by 101 of his fellow Members and 560,000 American citizens? Even if the Downing Street Memo and all the documents that support it are suppressed now, can you imagine that they won't be an important part of the historical record of the Bush/Cheney era?
Please keep commenting on the Moonbattery of the DSM; it may cause a few more people to actually read its short straightforward text.

Will this be "the beginning... (Below threshold)
Peter:

Will this be "the beginning of the end" like Joe Wilson's memo was? Or maybe that was the CBS "draft" memo that was the end. No wait, Nov. 2 was the end, right? I've gotten so confused I can't tell which "end" is up. Or maybe this DSM is the end-all, be-all end? Ugh.

All I know is that this issue is going to end up in a dead end, like it should. And all this liberal posturing and all these liberal pronouncements is just so much hot air coming from, well, their back ends.

Can 10% of a party reall... (Below threshold)

Can 10% of a party really run the whole show?
Well, they seem to be doing ok with it in the Republican Party.

For how long?
Hopefully, not too much longer.

If we fail to control the s... (Below threshold)
minnie:

If we fail to control the spin on this then we will surely be beaten back by the truth, and the entire house of cards will come tumbling down.

I warned you all when this first leaked that the "it's old news" and "fixed just means repaired" twists were pathetically weak, but no one has come up with anything better.

It's not too late -- we desperately need someone to investigate the fonts and the kerning in this memo.

Will this be "the beginn... (Below threshold)

Will this be "the beginning of the end" like Joe Wilson's memo was? Or maybe that was the CBS "draft" memo that was the end. No wait, Nov. 2 was the end, right? I've gotten so confused I can't tell which "end" is up. Or maybe this DSM is the end-all, be-all end?

Hopefully it will. To put it in terms you can understand, think of it like all those corners we keep turning in Iraq.

Hmmm.I don't know ... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm feeling a little evil right now.

I'm off to torture a delicious hamburger. I'm going to interrogate it severely with crisp lettuce, lightly salted tomato slices and slices of sharp white onion. Then I'll make it beg for mercy as I lay on the ketchup and fresh mayo.

Oh the horror. The horror.

Pray for me. My descent into madness of Republican ChimpyMcEvil begins.

In case anybody cares, Rick... (Below threshold)
Bill Dollar:

In case anybody cares, Rick Moron, excuse me, Moran is the host of an appropriately named site called Right Wing Nuthouse. A place where Rick posts such idiocy as the above daily, then spends his entire day deleting the posts of anyone who dares disagree with him. Apparently the poor fellow has no job or life, preferring instead to spend his time as a full time apologist for CIA torturers and the incomparably incompetent president George "Deficit" Bush.

It will all come out in the... (Below threshold)
YankeeWarmonger:

It will all come out in the wash.

Can't wait! It's fantastic to see the vice squeezing the ugly American bastards.

John H.Please less... (Below threshold)
Peter:

John H.

Please less cryptic you speak of corners, no?. No English understand. Sense make no. Vague much too. Again try.

(Speaking like Yoda helps me relate to the space cadet liberals! ;-)

On and on it goes. 'Moonba... (Below threshold)
Paul:

On and on it goes. 'Moonbats' asking for a hearing to find the truth. Right wing nutjobs calling them names and thinking that they and only they are right. Bush has made a mistake, one that has cost thousands of lives, and noone on the far right will admit it. His followers wish he was Reagan, and follow blindly wherecer he (Karl Rove) tells them to go (as long as it does not involve putting their ass on the line). Everyone who loves Bush so much that will not admit the horrible error in judgemnt in the rush to war (and now it looks like a premeditated rush) and refuses to even bother to question the motives and reasoning for this mess should put it on the line and volunteer. I smell a draft coming, Kevin (Moonbat in charge) should go first.

Hmmm.I guess since... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

I guess since GannonGate kinda just fizzled out the Left has been searching for something to finally make the cornerstone of their efforts. Something monumental that they can point to and show how powerful they are, or how relevant.

But no matter how much you flog this horse, it won't run any faster.

You Israel-firster types cr... (Below threshold)
Tyler Kent:

You Israel-firster types crack me up.

Hmmmm."rush to war... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

"rush to war"

ROFLMAO! Ok let's look at this. The Left is accusing Bush of having planned the invasion since, at least, 9/11 and possibly before. The invasion happened in March of 2003. So if we take the memo at face value then it took 8 months to "rush to war". If we go with the moonbat theory then it took 18 months to "rush to war".

That sure is some rushing.

I remember when a two bit b... (Below threshold)
Bill a Viet Vet:

I remember when a two bit burglary at Watergate was no big deal. As America wakes up to the real Bush his ratings in the polls continue to drop and so does his faked war. Ask yourself how many Republicans do you know with offspring in the War. You will find that it is only the men on the garbage truck who have been fool by Bush and have children in the War. I know many Republican who don’t have any one in this fake war. I also know many Democrats who don’t support the War but their kids are in Iraq. I’ve been there. If you support the war. Good. Go out right now and send you kid to Iraq or go yourself. Lets see your real support other than a bumper sticker on you car as it is powered by the blood of American GIs. Put up or shut up. Let’s see Bush sent his kids just like he wants to send you kids to fight in their place. The man has no concept of what war really is. Do you.

Hmmmm."I remember ... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

"I remember when a two bit burglary at Watergate was no big deal."

I remember when a deliberate deception perpetrated by a sitting President to mire an innocent country in a ever spiraling war.

Oh wait. That was Lyndon Baines Johnson, Democrat.

LOL.

Hmmm.If I had a qu... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

If I had a quarter for every "vietnam vet" or "green beret" or "seal" I've met online, I'd have a boatload of quarters.

So, Ed are you going to sen... (Below threshold)
Bill a Viet Vet:

So, Ed are you going to send you kid or go your self. Or are you just spouting Right Wing Bullshit as always. Come on Ed. Your a tough guys. When are you going to Iraq, you coward. You can remember how many GIs died for gas for your car.

---------------------------... (Below threshold)
Bill Maxwell, FBI:

-----------------------------------
All I know is that this issue is going to end up in a dead end, like it should. And all this [insert party affil here] posturing and all these [insert party affil here] pronouncements is just so much hot air coming from, well, their back ends.
-----------------------------------

we said the same thing about Billy and Monica :)

Ed sounds like the typical ... (Below threshold)
Paul:

Ed sounds like the typical armchair warrior. I'm no seal or green beret, just a ground pounding grunt that was in Kuwait and Iraq in 1991. If you'll recall, we didnt get Saadam then because there was no clear way out after that. So Ed, go on now, get some of that sand in between your toes. If you think the war is right, go fight it.

Hmmm.Oh no! A moo... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

Oh no! A moonbat called me a coward! OMG!

I'm shocked, SHOCKED, at such language.

Please. Keep the drivel coming.

Hmmm.Oh no! I've ... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

Oh no! I've been insulted and demeaned by a moonbat!

My life is over.

"Oh wait. That was Lyndo... (Below threshold)

"Oh wait. That was Lyndon Baines Johnson, Democrat."
And the same people who are now so disgusted with the current President (at least those of us who were alive and politically aware in 1966-1668), were just as disgusted with LBJ's war policies. He had some domestic policies that were OK, but the war trumped them all. The current Presidency, on the other hand, has no mitigating factors.

Hmmm.If I had a di... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

If I had a dime for every "veteran of Gulf I" I met online, I'd have a Death Star full of dimes.

Bill M.:I think th... (Below threshold)
Peter:

Bill M.:

I think there was a cigar involved, too. That still gives me the heebee jeebies.

But I disgress...

Back to the delusional, conspiratorial and space cadet talk on the memo...

Where was Bagdhad Bob? Cert... (Below threshold)
Charles Stanton:

Where was Bagdhad Bob? Certainly he would have given a much-needed sense of credibility to the hearing.

Posted by: Mike at June 17, 2005 02:51 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This administation is the only "Bagdhad Bob."

Every time some event occurs in Iraq, bush, cheney et al talk about the turning point and everything is fine, only to find Iraq continuing to spiral into more death and destruction for all parties involved!

I hate these no good bastards. This is from a father of a 2 tour Marine in Iraq who has survived this disater.

Charles: And I'm sure your ... (Below threshold)
DaveP.:

Charles: And I'm sure your son is proud of his father's attempts to sabotage his mission and his country... in his name.

Hmmm.1. "And the s... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

1. "And the same people who are now so disgusted with the current President (at least those of us who were alive and politically aware in 1966-1668), were just as disgusted with LBJ's war policies."

Really? Prove it. Provide the quotations and the links.

2. "He had some domestic policies that were OK"

You mean like *welfare*? You know the War on Poverty, that actually sucked up trillions of dollars and accomplished nothing but urban blight?

3. "The current Presidency, on the other hand, has no mitigating factors."

http://www.freespeech.com/archives/000336.html

Can't argue with that. Chimpy McHitlerBushHalliburtonOil and all that.

"Why they didn't invite for... (Below threshold)

"Why they didn't invite former Department of Labor chief economist, Morgan Reynolds P.H.D, to explain what really happened on 9/11 is mystifying."

Ha! The "truth about 9/11" crowd was already well represented. It is a shame the Washington Post didn't pull that string.

Mr. Morgan, Do you... (Below threshold)
Bruce:

Mr. Morgan,

Do you really think you can laugh off a petition of more than half a million? When that many people sign a petition it represents many more. I should think that republicans would want to address the Downing Street Memo so they can try to debunk it – arrogant power in trouble can always be recognized when it pretends it can’t hear an honest question.

Now, now. If somebody on th... (Below threshold)
Peter:

Now, now. If somebody on the Left can please make a point (any one would be welcome, actually) on the DSM...oh wait, nevermind, they can't.

Now, now. If somebody on th... (Below threshold)
Peter:

Now, now. If somebody on the Left can please make a point (any one would be welcome, actually) on the DSM...oh wait, nevermind, they can't.

You know Ed, it is a sick p... (Below threshold)
Bill a Viet Vet:

You know Ed, it is a sick person who make jokes as other people die. You still haven't said when big brave you are going to Iraq.

I've been a registered Repu... (Below threshold)
ThinkAboutIt:

I've been a registered Republican for 36 years. I was proud of that, but have recently been disgusted, absolutely disgusted about what's happened to my party.

When did it become a Republican value to mock our constitution? To joke about human suffering? Do any of you young people have any concept of what it really means to be a True Patriot? You stand up for your country ALWAYS, and your government WHEN IT DESERVES IT.

Let me tell you younger Republicans something you may not know: Once upon a time our party used to stand for Independence from government, responsibility for one's actions, and most importantly, honor to God. Not anymore. Because of the behavior of theses crooks in the whitehouse, our party is being hijacked and turned into another Axis of Evil. How do you defeat evil? You sure as hell don't copy it.

Well, I quit. As of today, I am no longer a Rupublican. I serve God and I serve my country. I do not bow to this corrupt government or the mainstream media that props them up. Hatemongers, good riddance!

Hmmm.I must bid yo... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

I must bid you all adieu, I'm off to my lovely weekend of oppressing all the peoples of the world for their oil.

Remember! Have a Chimpy McHitlerBush day!

Hmmmm.If I had a p... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

If I had a penny for every "I was a lifelong Republican until this President" I've met online, I'd have Ringworld full of pennies.

Oh wow, another "former" Re... (Below threshold)
Peter:

Oh wow, another "former" Republican. Yes, I believe that. I also believe I have a "secret" memo I can sell you, too. Cheap, I swear. Good stuff, too.

You Lefties are more pathetic now than you were when I was one in the 80s.

Well, I guess the insane never really know they're insane now do they.

Actually, in the electronic... (Below threshold)

Actually, in the electronic age, a petition with half a million signatures can represent any number of people from one (1) on up.

I'd be more interested in one (1) reasoned opinion than any number of astroturfed mouse clicks.

I agree with Peter - I would love to see a concise, reasoned point about why this memo is definitive, rather than ad hominem and tu quoque outbursts.

I also want a chocolate chip cookie, but that is off topic, I guess...

Ed, Why do you sta... (Below threshold)
Porn star convention:

Ed,

Why do you start each post with a long hummer?

Ah, you suck.

Check.

I figure you only deal in ad hominem attacks so there ya go.

But seriously, are you going to enlist or have your kid enlist? Simlple yes or no will do.

Dude you showed up on news.... (Below threshold)
BenJCarter:

Dude you showed up on news.google.com !

I captured a screenie and posted it here:

http://www.matchzone.net/wizbangongoogle.jpgtest

(Sorry for the raw link post. I am unfamiliar with the sytax in use here and raw html does not appear to work)

Sweet.

oops my html test was still... (Below threshold)
Freakboy:

oops my html test was still in the link when I posted. remove the test after the .jpg.

Here's a better link:

http://www.matchzone.net/wizbangongoogle.jpg

I printed out the PDF of th... (Below threshold)
LEFTY:

I printed out the PDF of the memo but it fell in the toiled. I accidentally pissed on it and then flushed it down the drain.

Am I on trial for warcrimes now? I feel like such a nazi. It is un-American to flush paper down the shitter. OH THE HUMANITY!

PLEASE FORGIVE ME!!!!

Brucie,I suppose t... (Below threshold)

Brucie,

I suppose that half-million includes the requisite percentages of dead people, family pets, imaginary people, and duplicates-- not to mention felons and illegal aliens.

After all, this is the Dummycraps we're talking about here..."Crack-rocks-for-ballots 2004" ring a bell?

LC NippleTickSteel, <... (Below threshold)
Bruce:

LC NippleTickSteel,

Yes, I'm sure you're right, half a million imaginary people signed the petition - as I said "arrogant power in trouble can always be recognized when it pretends it can’t hear an honest question."

The menos (there are more t... (Below threshold)
KK:

The menos (there are more than one) are definitive, or more accurately damaging because,

1) they were written by Bush's allies, not the opposition party.

2) they pre-date the war. They have historical context that can't be chalked up to partison bickering. These were Bush's closest friends discussing exactly where he was messing up and how to avoid making the same mistakes.

3) Just the fact that there is so much attention paid to these memos prove they're significant.

There is no discounting them or avioding the fact Bush committed war crimes. Can he be tried? Not until the Congress changes hands. These memos may very well cause that to happen. The approval rating of Congress, even among Republicans is in the toilet due to all the corruptions. Dissatifaction with Congress is bad for the majority party.

The stench of desperation h... (Below threshold)
Josh:

The stench of desperation has overpowered the entire left whinge. Hence the current noise level. After all their tired and incorrect "arguments" get debunked and buried, they will use them about 50% less. SOP for demoncrats, when they are marginalized (for good reason).

To Think about it.Yo... (Below threshold)
Bill a Viet Vet:

To Think about it.
You are not a lone. Many of my Republican friend are wondering what happen to their party. This will show up in the vote of Nov 2. The party of fiscal conservatism has been take over by spending worst than any Democrat could ever have do. $4 trillion blown since Bush stole the presidency As a person that is economically conservative and socially liberal, I vote we form a new party. In the middle. This would end the 50 – 50 split in American. 2/3 would vote for economically conservatism and 2/3 would vote for social liberalism. Then thing would get done in DC and NO ONE party would be doing a power grab like now.

'the intelligence and the f... (Below threshold)

'the intelligence and the facts were being fixed around the policy'
-Downing Street Memo

If the Congress were in the... (Below threshold)
KK:

If the Congress were in the Democrat's hands, this Downing Street Memo issue would be enough to impeach Bush.

If Delay falls for corruption, how many Republicans will go down with him?

btw, where did this term "m... (Below threshold)
Michael L.:

btw, where did this term "moonbat" come from?

I kinda like it.

It brings up images of bats swooping among the trees... at night... in the eerie glow of a big full moon.

I am a happy righteous moonbat swooping among the wizbang fascists.

Is this what you were looki... (Below threshold)
Kid Hobo:

Is this what you were looking for Parker:

Downing Street II
Ray McGovern
June 13, 2005

The Evidence Strengthens

When asked about the July 23, 2002, minutes at their press conference last week in Washington, President Bush and Prime Minister Blair did a good job of obfuscating—enough to mislead our corporate press into the all-too-familiar he-said, she-said reporting. What went unnoticed was the fact that in the process, the two leaders unintentionally acknowledged the authenticity of the minutes, which read like a meeting of Mafioso. They may think no one will read the actual minutes. In that, they are dead wrong. And these new British revelations have already strengthened the case against the Bush administration.

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/20050613/downing_street_ii.php

Comment: This is why the Democrats love the theory of evolution... they can see the Darwinian process taking place infront of them in the Republican party as each of Rebpublican ideologies dies off.

Well, I quit. As of toda... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Well, I quit. As of today, I am no longer a Rupublican. I serve God and I serve my country. I do not bow to this corrupt government or the mainstream media that props them up. Hatemongers, good riddance!

Yeah, right, anyone who has voted Republican for the last 26 years sure as hell knows that the MSM does not prop them up! Give us a break. This younger Republican knows enough not to listen to that BS!!.

And really Bruce, 500,000 online signatures out of a country with what 290 million and you call that ignoring? So an arrogant power is one that ignores 0.17% of its population, not to mention that percentage most likely can't stand him anyway.

So what's the question again??

Imaginary people. Have any... (Below threshold)
Bill a Viet Vet:

Imaginary people. Have any of you Nazis ever signed a petition? I was one of those Imaginary people and it would not let me sign twice. Continue to make joke as people die for gas in you car. You must be real proud of yourself. Do you go to GI’s funerals and laugh?. There are many people like “Think about it” who have half a brain and can see something is rotten in the Whitehouse and needs flushing out. Come on lets see more of your moron humor

there are several more Bush... (Below threshold)
Bill Maxwell, FBI:

there are several more Bush era "deep throats" out there, and they are about to find out they have nothing to fear anymore.

sorry thinkaboutit, that sh... (Below threshold)
Mike:

sorry thinkaboutit, that should say 36 years. Like it matters though.

And now it's on top of the ... (Below threshold)
BenJCarter:

And now it's on top of the US section. Excellent.

http://www.matchzone.net/wizbangtopheadlinegoogle.jpg


***************************... (Below threshold)
Bill Maxwell, FBI:

*****************************
And really Bruce, 500,000 online signatures out of a country with what 290 million and you call that ignoring? So an arrogant power is one that ignores 0.17% of its population, not to mention that percentage most likely can't stand him anyway.

*****************************

hmm, in 3 weeks time, minus all the children, minus everyone who dosent have internet access, minus all the people who never heard anything about the downing street minutes before, minus all the people who still dont know what its all about, and that 290 million "possible" signers falls significantly to point where the percentage becomes very very very relavent.

The reality is that the wim... (Below threshold)
Bill a Viet Vet:

The reality is that the wimp dog media is finally starting to cover the DSM and it is going to become a loud noise before it is dead. Continue to make jokes but the end of the second Bush Reich is in sight.

Nearly every paper in the c... (Below threshold)
Kid Hobo:

Nearly every paper in the country is running an article about the DSM... including this one. Evidence or not, the fact that the DSM has become a national topical point illustrates how unavoidable the DSM is! Another, and lastly, final point... if it is fake, then why hasn't it been proven wrong as was the case of the Dan Rather Swift Boat memo? Conservative bloggers would have easily uncovered it as being 'fake'... the only thing left for the right is their usual 'spin' effort.

Bullsh*t Bill!! That perce... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Bullsh*t Bill!! That percentage becomes no where near significant. It's not even significant given the 59 million people who voted for Kerry. Give the petition thing a rest.

And Bill the Viet Vet, you should be real proud of yourself calling people who disagree with you Nazis! Now that's intelligence.

The 500k petitioners stemme... (Below threshold)
Kid Hobo:

The 500k petitioners stemmed from a grassroots effort of bloggers here in the US, which doubled every week for a month. In the UK, this WAS/IS a huge issue and cost Blair dearly in his election. It was only a matter of time before it became a MSM issue here.

"You can remember how many ... (Below threshold)

"You can remember how many GIs died for gas for your car."

-Bill, Viet Vet and Notable Supreme Grand Wizard Jedi Master of the English Language

******

Ah, the vaunted 'no blood for oil' theme. That hasn't been beaten into the ground or anything. I think of it every time I drop $30 to fill my car...

If John Conyers is the best the Left could come up with to spearhead their little DSM fiesta, then they are in even far deeper trouble politically than I could have ever imagined.

Mike, So a petitio... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Mike,

So a petition of half a million means nothing. Is that why I can go to my congressman with a petition of a few thousand and have him consider the subject seriously. The number of names on a petition always represents many more people than are listed. Would you say the same if it were a petition of half a million republican signatures?

Viewing the above posts tel... (Below threshold)
dickd:

Viewing the above posts tells me Savage is right...Liberalism is a mental disease that is not easily self diagnosed. I think I just saw bats coming out a few of their asses. Anti-American spewers of venom against our country, all the while protesting their support for it. And now getting closer and closer to dropping their fake protest 'that we do support the troops' from their mantra, into direct opposition. Bill the Vietnam Vet must have lost the years in between...hey Bill the Army is now volunteer, and we don't have to send your cowardly kids since they won't be in the service of our country; you dumb frick. The rhetoric is getting back...the next step down is violence...in this case the liberals and democrats lose in 3 weeks....lock and load! We will not send them to Gitmo; send all the unpatriotic fricks to France and let them whine for the rest of their pathetic lives.

Alex... didn't you pay $15 ... (Below threshold)
Kid Hobo:

Alex... didn't you pay $15 bucks to fill up just a couple years ago? Kinda 'should' make you wonder.

Kid Hobo,Gas price... (Below threshold)

Kid Hobo,

Gas prices go up and down. When they're down, bully for us all. When they're up, I deal. No sense crying about it. I choose to drive my $30 fill-up car. If it ever got to be too much, then I'd consider changing my transport. That's life.

We're still better off than the Europeans, who pay out the a$$.

As Norman Mailer pointed ou... (Below threshold)
Skip the former Republican:

As Norman Mailer pointed out, the influence of Leo Strauss belies justifications given by the world's leading apologists for the police state which has come to pass. Perhaps for the first time since the late 1940s, the apparent demise of "anti-Americanism" as a respectable means of stifling recognition of American imperialism is solid evidence of the theocrat Ashcroft's suspension of our civil rights. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, Donald Rumsfeld's worldview is determined by capitalist interests which lead to an act of international violence that exceeds even those of the "liberal" Bill Clinton. Let us never forget that the unstated purpose of this war can be seen in the light of the apparent fabrications which lead to the resurgence of White Supremacist ideologies.

dickd,Is your view... (Below threshold)
Bruce:

dickd,

Is your view the typical Republican view - I don't think so. I don't really think republicans are that stupid. I think they take a different angle on loyalty to our country, that doesn't mean it's always wrong, but it doesn't mean it's always right either. If you are that intolerant of other people’s opinions, you need serious psychoanalysis.

Clearly, the appropriation ... (Below threshold)
Sam, Viet Nam vet:

Clearly, the appropriation of Arab resources can be regarded as the theocrat Ashcroft's suspension of our civil rights. On the other hand, Colin Powell's parade of lies belies justifications given by the world's leading apologists for the resurgence of White Supremacist ideologies. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, the pro-Sharon neoconservative cabal brings forth an oil war masquerading as an endless crusade against "terrorism." Presumably, a minority of warmongers and apologists is determined by capitalist interests which lead to the flagrant lies promulgated by the political donor class.

$30 bucks for a tankful? W... (Below threshold)
toby928:

$30 bucks for a tankful? Where do I get in line? I just spent $72 bucks to fill my F150 (it does have 2 tanks). The sooner we can directly convert islamists to gasoline the better!

Tob

(hey, this insulting hatemongering is fun. I better quit before I get addicted)

It is not heartening that t... (Below threshold)
Fred, crippled homeless boy:

It is not heartening that the appropriation of Arab resources is determined by capitalist interests which lead to the seizure of the Iraqi Oil Ministry. On the other hand, the deal between the Department of Defense and Halliburton unit Kellogg, Brown & Root brings about the flagrant lies promulgated by the political donor class. This suggests that the apparent demise of "anti-Americanism" as a respectable means of stifling recognition of American imperialism represents the crushing of internal dissent in order to propagate the theocrat Ashcroft's suspension of our civil rights. It is quite remarkable that the Pax Americana of the future brings forth the slaughter of thousands of children by Air Force cluster bombs.

For one thing, Bush’s argum... (Below threshold)
Pam, nonpartisan housewife:

For one thing, Bush’s argument for war is solid evidence of the essential Western imperial interests. So far, Americanism as an ideology represents the crushing of internal dissent in order to propagate the resurgence of White Supremacist ideologies. This suggests that the influence of Leo Strauss belies justifications given by the world's leading apologists for the result of a pre-fascist atmosphere in America. Let us never forget that the appropriation of Arab resources is determined by capitalist interests which lead to the police state which has come to pass.

Oh boy - interesting bunch ... (Below threshold)
Sweet smell of anger:

Oh boy - interesting bunch of intelectuals here...wow. The dialogue is amazing...some of you should go work for the Washington Times - you are THAT good.
Demoncrats and Moonbats. That is how we deal with the other half of the country - revert to name calling - classy bunch.

all you leftist commies nee... (Below threshold)

all you leftist commies need to have your breains blown out. be a real true patriet and support our president. or else go live some other place where you can be with your freinds like iran.

Proud American:You f... (Below threshold)
Proud American is Democrat:

Proud American:
You forgot to add "Heil Bush" at the end and talk about "when we gonna hang all dem negroes."

Bad impersonation, back to the DU for you.

Dickd..I'll go to France if... (Below threshold)
Paul:

Dickd..I'll go to France if you go to Iraq. I've already been there in the service of my country and you should find it to be a memorable experience.
The question remains, did the president lie to congress and the country to get the US into this war. Obviously the president didn't have a good plan for afterwards, but what was the reasoning beforehand. The DSM raises questions that should be investigated by an independent authority, and if there is nothing to it, then the name calling can cease. If you truly believe that the search for truth, however unpleasant to your belief system, is not worthwhile then this country obviously isn't for you. I beleive that there is something to it, others may disagree, regardless we should see is there is anything to it.

How these sicko liberals co... (Below threshold)

How these sicko liberals control the news media and have the unadulterated nerve to speak for 300+ million people with fake news conferences, hearings with no agenda but the anti-American leftist agenda, and "petitions" signed by 500,000 leftist psychos is beyond me.

This country is getting worse because of these people. They are sickening.

Alex, you're point it moot.... (Below threshold)
Kid Hobo:

Alex, you're point it moot. Europe is not USA. Gas hit $57 a barrel today, futures estimated well over $65. Part of that trend is attributed to a falling dollar, ie, currency valuations are correlated in the world's economies 'faith' in the dollar. When that 'faith' due to our current foreighn policy continues to decline... your gas will continue to cost more.

Is this whole thread a plot... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Is this whole thread a plot by The Whiz to pump up his hit counts. Is it sweeps week on blog-ads? More moon-battery, more moon-battery. I'm pressing refresh like a lab monkey on crack!

Tob

heil bush!... (Below threshold)

heil bush!

Honesty and care is in shor... (Below threshold)
Goober:

Honesty and care is in short supply in this country.
All this name calling, it's sad
We get tossed scraps and fight over them.
Guess who runs to the bank laughing?

Wake up you all.

Damn, its slowing down. Is... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Damn, its slowing down. Isthe library closing?

Tob

Actually Goober, I got a ra... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Actually Goober, I got a raise today, so I laughing to the bank.

Tobias

On the other hand, the infl... (Below threshold)
Unbiased Objective Non-Hater:

On the other hand, the influence of Leo Strauss represents the crushing of internal dissent in order to propagate the resurgence of White Supremacist ideologies. This suggests that the American state, with its unelected president, venal Supreme Court, silent Congress, gutted Bill of Rights and compliant media brings forth an oil war masquerading as an endless crusade against "terrorism." So far, the unstated purpose of this war represents the repudiation of international law in order to bring about the predatory imperialist aims outlined by the crypto-fascist Project for a New American Century. As Norman Mailer pointed out, Colin Powell's parade of lies brings about the theocrat Ashcroft's suspension of our civil rights.

"brings about the theocrat ... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"brings about the theocrat Ashcroft's suspension of our civil rights."

There's just something about people on TV and the internet shouting about how they're being silenced that doesn't parse with me. If only it were so.

Tob

all you leftist co... (Below threshold)
Bill a Viet Vet:

all you leftist commies need to have your breains blown out. be a real true patriet and support our president. or else go live some other place where you can be with your freinds like iran.

I am a War veteran, I have two war disabled brothers. I have one MIA brother in Korea. A patriot is some that stand up for his country when his country call. He doesn’t hide behind his father political power and condemn those who have served. What have you done to earn your citizenship? Hide like Bush did?
If the Religious Right is allow to take over this country, as Bush would like, than it will be just like living in Iran or Saudi Arabia. You had better wake up and quit contemning intellectuals because it is obvious, from your spelling, you are not one

"God told me to strike at a... (Below threshold)
Kid Hobo:

"God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them."

George W. Bush

or one thing, the Pax Ameri... (Below threshold)
Stan, a Viet Nam War Vet:

or one thing, the Pax Americana of the future represents the repudiation of international law in order to bring about an oil war masquerading as an endless crusade against "terrorism." On the other hand, Bush’s argument for war can be seen in the light of the apparent fabrications which lead to the seizure of the Iraqi Oil Ministry. Clearly, the pro-Sharon neoconservative cabal brings forth the result of a pre-fascist atmosphere in America. Nevertheless, Americanism as an ideology belies justifications given by the world's leading apologists for the predatory imperialist aims outlined by the crypto-fascist Project for a New American Century.

"God told me to strike at a... (Below threshold)
Kid Hobo:

"God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them."

G. W. Bush

Toby928Wage slave... (Below threshold)
Goober:

Toby928

Wage slave, get a clue

Are you quotig Chomsky ther... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Are you quotig Chomsky there Stan? It has his particular stench about it.

Tob

"My secret plans are to tak... (Below threshold)
Social Justice:

"My secret plans are to take over the world, just like Hitler! MUHAHHAHAHA!"

George W. Bush

--

"Actually that is MY plan, MUHAHAHHAA!"

Darth Cheney

Hey goober, I'm fighting th... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Hey goober, I'm fighting the power right now. I'm posting instead of working ;-)

Tob

Ah - the dialogue is gettin... (Below threshold)
Some Dude:

Ah - the dialogue is getting better - NonHater has made some very interesting points...

Questions should be raised and answers should be given - it is for a love of country that this is true. Blind obediance does not a great country make.

I love my country. I'd die ... (Below threshold)
State name here:

I love my country. I'd die for my country, but the problem is the enemy of my land is not in Iraq, it's in Washington.

Blind obediance does not a ... (Below threshold)
Kid Hobo:

Blind obediance does not a great country make.

Posted by: Some Dude
-----------------
No, but it makes Fascism work great!

Questions are being raised,... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Questions are being raised, Mostly about the sanity of Dean, Conyers, and Durban. If this kind of exercise is going to continue to be the practice of the Democratic party, then I see a future of unbroken Republican hegemony and that isn't good.

Tob

LOL, be a true patriot and ... (Below threshold)
Joe Mama:

LOL, be a true patriot and support your president! And this coming from lame coward republicans who do absolutely nothing but profit from a war they support, but won't fight themselves. You people do realize you will be damned to hell, don't you? I will pray for you. But to say the people who are fighting the war are cowards is a joke. Get off your lazy rich republican asses and fight the war yourself. And then us poor liberals wiil cheer you guys on to the end, I promise.

I don't know if they are to... (Below threshold)
Some Dude:

I don't know if they are totally off mark with what they have said. If you listen to Durban - he is not making a crazy accusation - he seemed to be seriously concerned with our behavior. I for one welcome the attention in the media and the start of a serious debate.

Anne Coulter. Is a fine example on the Republican side - what do you make of her remarks?

Joe Mamma you retard! That'... (Below threshold)
Kid Hobo:

Joe Mamma you retard! That's the whole point: You do not have to support your president to be a patriot! Wake up Sheeple.

Joe H. Are you reading imp... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Joe H. Are you reading impaired? Joe Mamma is on your side! sheesh

Tob

I am an American Patriot. ... (Below threshold)
Bill a Viet Vet:

I am an American Patriot. I am not a Bush Patriot.

Put Bush and Cheney on the ... (Below threshold)
Joe Mama:

Put Bush and Cheney on the front lines, and televise it. Now I would support that! While we are at it, enlist the twin brats and send them to Iraq. Just tell them they will get all the booze and drugs they desire.

"Anne Coulter. Is a fine ex... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"Anne Coulter. Is a fine example on the Republican side - what do you make of her remarks?" Some, if that question is for me i'll answer: I laugh. Her enemies are the best part of her schtick, kind of like Rush. Its not that they are that clever, its just how much they bother their opponents.

Tob

"Put Bush and Cheney on the... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"Put Bush and Cheney on the front lines"

Good one! Like we haven't heard that before. I'm sure FDR could have whipped Hirohito ass with one hand tied behind his back and both legs paralyzed.

Tob

Chuckle . . .You g... (Below threshold)
DavidB:

Chuckle . . .

You gotta love the loons on the left. I especially love the pseudo-intellectual rants from Skip the former Republican, Fred, crippled homeless boy, Pam, nonpartisan housewife, and Unbiased Objective Non-Hater.

I wonder if the troll thinks they are fooling anyone?

Thanks for jumping in David... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Thanks for jumping in DavidB. I can't hold the hit counts up by myself. Plus, its quitting time and I soon have to quit cheating my employer by googing off like this.

Tob

Toby - yes it was you I was... (Below threshold)
Some Dude:

Toby - yes it was you I was talkin too...

So I guess that they do it for the money and the attention - and you are concerned that Dean Conyers and Durbin are either eleceted officials or oficial party spokespeople?

I think that the real issue that all we get are the soundbites and the little snipets. We don't get contect, we don't get the details and I heard that God was in the details...but I also heard he was alive and well in Mazula (sp?) MT.

googing? Is that esparanto... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

googing? Is that esparanto? or some secret language twins use?

Name that quote!

Tob

goofing

DavidB:And I've YE... (Below threshold)
Peter:

DavidB:

And I've YET to hear them make a relevant and real point about the DSM.

"all you leftist commies ne... (Below threshold)
Kev:

"all you leftist commies need to have your breains blown out. be a real true patriet and support our president."

Breains ? Patriet?


This is too funny. What a perfect example of Right Wing thinking.

If the president is a war criminal, the true PATRIOTS will convict him.

Some, what a reasonable que... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Some, what a reasonable questions, unfortunately this isn't the thread for reasonableness. I'll watch for you on more scholarly threads and I can tell you what I really think. This threads for rumbling!

Tob

Patterico has got the best posters if you like reasoned disagreements, sorry Whiz, I didn't mean it!

"the Pax Americana of the f... (Below threshold)
Josh:

"the Pax Americana of the future represents the repudiation of international law in order to bring about an oil war masquerading as an endless crusade against terrorism."

It just doesn't work as well without hitler comparisons.

Since the left believes we live in a dictatorial police state already, it would be appreciable if they rounded themselves up, imprisoned themselves, and executed each other, before President Bush gets around to doing it for them. The best part is, no innocents will be harmed.

THE FUNNY THING IS, THIS WA... (Below threshold)
AARON:

THE FUNNY THING IS, THIS WAS A TOP SECRET OFFICIAL BRITISH INTELLIGENCE REPORT. THE LANGUAGE PLAINLY STATES THAT THE FACTS WERE BEING ADJUSTED TO FIT THE POLICY. BELEIVE CNN AND FOX NEWS IF YOU'D LIKE, BUT WHERE DOES THEIR INFO ON INTELLIGENCE COME FROM? THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL BE LEAD TO BELIEVE WHATEVER THE WHITE HOUSE WOULD LIKE US TO. WATCH BBC NEWS AND THE FACT ARE A BIT DIFFERENT. THE SAD FACT IS THAT AMERICA AND GEORGE BUSH ARE IN THE WRONG WHEN IT COMES TO IRAQ. THE DAYS OF FIGHTING A WAR FOR A WORTHY CAUSE ARE OVER. THIS WAR WAS GOING TO HAPPEN REGARDLESS OF IMAGINARY WMDS, IT WAS A PLOY TO GET COMPLIANCE FROM THE PUBLIC. WHAT ABOUT IRAN AND NORTH KOREA? IRAQ IS A GOOD IDEA BECAUSE PEAK OIL IS REAL AND NOW, AND SECURING IRAQ MEANS WE CAN BUILD BASES IN THE REGION. WE CAN CREATE A NATURAL GAS PIPLINE THOUGH AFGANISTAN AND IRAQ (COINCIDENCE?) OUR REAL ENEMY IS GEORGE AND DICK. WHO REALLY CARED ABOUT SADDAMM HUSSEIN BEFORE DESERT STORM? SADDAMM HAS MORE IN COMMON WITH GEORGE BUSH THAN I DO. AM I A DEMOCRAT? NO! THE AGENDA IS THE SAME. GLOBAL CORPORATE POWER. IT IS IGNORANCE FROM PEOPLE LIKE KEVIN WHO SUPPORT OUR LEADERS NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO. SO JUSTIFY IT TO YOURSELF IF IT MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER AND HELPS YOU SLEEP AT NIGHT. IF YOU WANT TO SEE THE REAL THREAT TO GLOBAL PEACE LOOK TO OUR LEADERS. I LOVE OUR SOLIDERS, THEY WILL DO THEIR DUTY. MORALE IS LOW BECAUSE NOW MANY OF THEM KNOW THAT THEY'VE BEEN DUPPED. BUT ONCE THEIR NAME IS SIGNED ON THAT DOTTED LINE, ALL THEY CAN DO IS TRY TO SURVIVE. ANYONE HEARD OF NOAM CHOMSKY? GET THE FACTS!

Check again Peter - I saw a... (Below threshold)
Some Dude:

Check again Peter - I saw a number of relevant and real points about the DSM.

Or maybe you just don't want to know?

Nothing like all CAPS to pr... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Nothing like all CAPS to prove you're serious.

Don't liberals know that th... (Below threshold)
McCain:

Don't liberals know that their anti-American anti-war rhetoric lowers troop morale and gets soldiers killed. Liberals have a lot of blood on their hands. Learn the lessons of Vietnam, and for once, just once in the last 50 years, get on the right side of U.S. foreign policy.

Anybody else remember when ... (Below threshold)
Crazy H:

Anybody else remember when the repugnicans tried to convince people that they *cared* when a President told a lie?

In November of 2002, the US... (Below threshold)
tom:

In November of 2002, the US President went to the United Nations and received Security Council Resolution 1441[1].

In March of 2003 the President declared war on Iraq[2].

The Downing Street Minutes as well as six other documents purport that in early 2002, the President had made up his mind on regime change, and that the British Prime Minister had agreed to that regime change.[3]

The Downing Street Minutes have been verifed as authentic by high ranking british government officials, and the six other documents have been verified as authentic by NBC News.[4] These are primary source documents from the top of the British Secret Service as well as top British Government officials.

As the evidence is presented it can be concluded that when President Bush went on public record between early 2002, and early 2003 and stated that every diplomatic means was being taken to not take America into war with Iraq, he was in fact, lying.

In other news, records of 40,000 Mastercard Card holders have been compromised.[6]

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Security_Council_Resolution_1441
2. http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030319-17.html
3. http://rawstory.com/exclusives/larisa/downing_street_documents_613
4. http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8207731
5. http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/050617/175525.html?.v=1

In other news, records of 4... (Below threshold)
tom:

In other news, records of 40,000 Mastercard Card holders have been compromised.[6]

should read:

In other news, records of 40,000 Mastercard Card holders have been compromised.[5]

Tom, your not actually quot... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Tom, your not actually quoting wikipedia are you? You do understand that that is joe-blow modified? Stay away from politics on that site. Anything else is fairly good but politics is just troll-fodder. I think I'll go change it to say "In March of 2003 the President declared war on France"

Tob

Fair enough Tob - I appreci... (Below threshold)
Some Dude:

Fair enough Tob - I appreciate the recomendation...

rumblings huh - i got one but you can't really send a virtual fart...sorry I always go to toilet humor...something in the Urban air I breath...

Yeah, sometimes threads jus... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Yeah, sometimes threads just go to hell and the best thing to do is drop out or ride the whirlwind.

Tob

McCain-"Don't liberals know... (Below threshold)
sues:

McCain-"Don't liberals know that their anti-American anti-war rhetoric lowers troop morale and gets soldiers killed." They also want to lower the moral of all Americans so they lose faith in the war.

THAT IS THEIR GOAL. They don't think they have anything to be sorry about or apologize for because they achieved thier goal. It doesn't matter HOW they do it, only that they achieve it.

Some dude, is that your reg... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Some dude, is that your regular handle? If it is, i'll google you and loadup for our next encounter ;-)

Tob

What would a relevant quest... (Below threshold)
Stuey:

What would a relevant question look like to you hopelessly impenetrable Repub. dweebs? The memos are themselves the relevant question, idiots. It is hard to explain something so obvious, but zi will try: the head British spy told his boss that our spys were going to cook up some lies as justification to invade Iraq, and our President told those lies to the Congress of the US to cpnvince them to give him war powers, and he told those lies to us, the American people, and the rest of the world. Gosh for being "so smart" you guys sure are dumb not to see how obvious this is.

Not that it matters really since you won't believe me, but my father, an attorney, was a life-long Republican- he was proud to be a Nixon man! Last November he voted for John Kerry, the 1st time in his life he didn't vote Republican. I guess he is just more reflective and intelligent than you guys.

Stuey

Why is everything so black ... (Below threshold)
BillyBoy:

Why is everything so black and white with Conservatives? I don't know either. But for those of you out there, consider this:

We are Liberal because we think it’s important protect and preserve our environment for our children, and our children’s children. It is not because we like to hug trees.

We are Liberal because when we try to impose Christian values upon everyone it displays our intolerance for those that do not believe, and our inability to learn from the mistakes people have made in the past. It is not because we do not believe.

We are Liberal because we think rewarding heterosexual marriage with tax breaks and better health coverage is discriminatory to those that are not heterosexual. It is not because we have a pro-homosexual agenda.

We are Liberal because we don’t need someone in the White House to show me the meaning of morality—we can think for ourselves! It is not because we are amoral.

We are Liberal because there are people out there that need our help through no fault of their own. It is not because we want bigger government or higher taxes.

We are Liberal because war should be a last resort, justified by the people, for the people. It is not because we don’t support our troops or that we hate Americans.

Well Sue, it depends on whe... (Below threshold)
McCain:

Well Sue, it depends on whether war-protesting liberals are intentionally evil or simply naive. I think a mixture of both, as I have observed both kinds with great curiosity in my travels.

Certainly one can say that war protesting liberals tend to hate a lot, a psychological problem that reflects self-hatred projected on to others. If they hate themselves, how can they possibly love their countrymen?

"my father, an attorney, wa... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"my father, an attorney, was a life-long Republican- he was proud to be a Nixon man! Last November he voted for John Kerry, the 1st time in his life he didn't vote Republican"

Argument from authority doesn't work when your invisible. I don't even know if you have a father.

"the head British spy told his boss that our spys were going to cook up some lies as justification to invade Iraq" Is that a direct quote? Damn, I thought British spies wrote better that that. Seriously, your hanging all your hopes on ONE word: fixed. What does that mean in British? What does it mean to the author of the memo? Have you made any attempt to find out? Has he used it in other contexts? What did Blair say it meant? Sheesh.

Hope on my little moonbat. Maybe this one will slay the fiend.

Tob

WELL SAID BILLYBOY. NOW IF ... (Below threshold)
AARON:

WELL SAID BILLYBOY. NOW IF SOME LIBERALS IN WASHINGTON WOULD SHOW SOME BRASS AND TAKE CHARGE. DEATH TO THE PARTY. TOO MANY BELEIVE THAT WHO IS LEADING OUR COUNTRY, (DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN) MAKES A DAMN BIT OF DIFFERENCE. IF YOU THINK JOHN KERRY WOULD HAVE BEEN A 'GOOD THING' THEN YOU ARE A FOOL. IT WOULD JUST BE HARD TO FIND SOMEONE WHO IS WORSE THAN BUSH.

LOL!! McCain!!Prot... (Below threshold)
Place name here:

LOL!! McCain!!

Protesting wars is an example of expressed hatred?

OMGLMAO!!!!

you have collectively explained the idiocy of communicating with unbending stupidity. Thank you for the enlightenment.

This memo belongs in the De... (Below threshold)
Peter:

This memo belongs in the Dead Memo Office, next to the other dead "smoking gun" memos. Hell, there's even less here than the Aug. 6 memo!

TO MCCAIN - YOU REALLY THIN... (Below threshold)
AARON:

TO MCCAIN - YOU REALLY THINK VIETMAN WAS A GOOD IDEA? WHAT DID WE ACCOMPLISH OTHER THAN DEATH AND MISERY?

GET BACK TO THE FACTS OF THE FORUM. THE TRUTH HAS BEEN MADE PUBLIC THAT BUSH LIED TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. THE BRITISH REPORT STATES PLAINLY THAT INTELLIGENCE FROM AMERICA WAS BEING 'CREATED' TO FIT POLICY.

Liberals didn’t start this ... (Below threshold)
Bill a Viet Vet:

Liberals didn’t start this war. G Bush did and he is the one with blood on his hands. I was in Viet Nam and I read all the account in the newspaper. You weren’t there and you don’t know. I knew every lie Nixon told first hand. The Gis in Iraq know why they are not in college or at work or home with their families. The answer is G. Bush.

Hiya Tob- I was using littl... (Below threshold)
Stuey:

Hiya Tob- I was using little words to make sure ALL of the Republicans could understand- and typing fast, so if you want to use typos as an excuse to discredit me, feel free. Small technicalities are always the weapons of the small-minded.

To hinge your ENTIRE argument on the British connotation of "fixed" is pretty darned slim. Actually, it's blatantly stupid. To say that is a valid reason to not investigate further is truly the osterich approach- you must be the monkey with four hands- two on your eyes and two on your ears. I only wish you had one for your mouth!

Aaron:Nowhere in t... (Below threshold)
Peter:

Aaron:

Nowhere in the memo is word 'created' even used. 'Fixed', yes. 'Created', no. Two entirely different words with different meanings and connotations.

"The Gis in Iraq know why t... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"The Gis in Iraq know why they are not in college or at work or home with their families. The answer is G. Bush."

Yet oddly, the military supports the mission. They must be fools.

/sarcasm

Tob

So, rather than refute the ... (Below threshold)
LA:

So, rather than refute the contents of the memo and address the fact that Bush lied, you prefer to attack Democrats, call them names and have a good laugh. Why not? It's what Republicans do, isn't it? No need for facts. We make our own reality and attack the truth. Moonbats indeed.

Stuey, what does the author... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Stuey, what does the author of the memo say it means?

Stuey:How is it st... (Below threshold)
Peter:

Stuey:

How is it stupid to hinge an entire arguement on the word "fixed"? Isn't that what's being done by Conyers & Co.

Rhetorical question.

Peter, i'm afraid you might... (Below threshold)
place name here:

Peter, i'm afraid you might need an English UK to English american dictionary to understand the simplistic definition of the word Fixed.

Or are you to busy smoking a fag?

IMPEACH BUSH NOW!T... (Below threshold)
Michael:

IMPEACH BUSH NOW!

The President lied to the American people. He is in need of some discipline. People can not get away with this kind of treason. BUSH IS A LIAR, and he doesnt want to change his ways. A person who repents for his/her sins is able to get forgiveness. Bush doesn't want forgiveness, as he is a pig-headed and arrogant ruler. America is supposed to embrace democratic principles {though it is not a democracy}, and yet he doesn't care about what the people want or need. For instance, I would have liked to take care of the individuals and groups involved in 9/11, as I am a victim of the attack {My brother died on the 105th floor of WTC1}. I heard last night that there was intelligence than IRAN was involved in the planning of 9/11. If this is the case, I believe BUSH IS AN IDIOT for having taken the war to IRAQ. Maybe his dumb brain wasn't working, and he mistook IRAQ for IRAN, but PLEASE!!!

To those who defend BUSH SHIT, look at your reasoning. You just might find that you are supporting the wrong person. BUSH is selfish, doesn't care about the people, and acts belligerently. Also he can't speak worth a damn {all that learning, and he still sounds like a retarded child}.

IMPEACH BUSH NOW!!!

My fine liberal friends, yo... (Below threshold)
McCain:

My fine liberal friends, you are obviously unaware that Saddam Hussein started 3 wars in the middle east, making him responsible for the deaths of about 3,000,000 people. Where was your protest then?

And here you are today pretending to worry about potentially 2,000 dead soldiers, using any possible means to bring down your country's benevolent aims.

World-wide democracy is the key to ending war. You are on the wrong side of history and will be judged quite harshly for it.

Since you don't give a damn about 3,000,000 people, one knows that your interest in your current silly protest action is NOT about saving lives. Instead, it is about undermining democracies, particular the interests of your own democracy. Just admit it so we can have a real conversation. And then tell us why?

Michael, sorry for your los... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Michael, sorry for your loss. (My uncle only escaped death at the pentagon because he was late to work that day, he was crossing the parking lot when the attack occurred). But IMPEACH BUSH NOW? I'd say their is zero chance of that unless you have video of Bush plotting the attack with Ariel Sharon, and even then you'ld need 2 witnesses. Just not going to happen.

Tob

place name here:My... (Below threshold)
Peter:

place name here:

My Oxford dictionary will suffice. So will Merriam-Webster. To the later I defer:

Main Entry: 1fix
Pronunciation: 'fiks
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin fixus, past participle of figere to fasten; akin to Lithuanian dygti to sprout, break through
transitive senses
1 a : to make firm, stable, or stationary b : to give a permanent or final form to: as (1) : to change into a stable compound or available form (2) : to kill, harden, and preserve for microscopic study (3) : to make the image of (a photographic film) permanent by removing unused salts c : AFFIX, ATTACH
2 a : to hold or direct steadily b : to capture the attention of
3 a : to set or place definitely : ESTABLISH b : to make an accurate determination of : DISCOVER c : ASSIGN
4 : to set in order : ADJUST
5 : to get ready : PREPARE

Definition 3, 4 or 5 will suffice and support my point, either in the UK or the US.

I notice that you didn't li... (Below threshold)
Place name here:

I notice that you didn't list the number of Iraqi casualties along with that of the troops, is that because we don't have an accurate account of the wounded and dead? of course you wouldn't be saying that, as that would be a violation of the Geneva Convention.

Yet oddly, the military sup... (Below threshold)
Bill a Viet Vet:

Yet oddly, the military supports the mission. They must be fools.

/sarcasm
The military follows order or they go to jail. They are not allow to dissent because they are told not to. If you want to know what Iraq GI’s think try “Operation Truth” it is a website for GIs and by GIs.

I'm fixing to leave the off... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

I'm fixing to leave the office and go home! See, there's that word. What does the author say it means in this context?

Tob

"The military follows order... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"The military follows order or they go to jail."

Bill, they voted Republican (according to surveys anyway) after the war started.

Tob

Toby:LOL! Great! I... (Below threshold)
Peter:

Toby:

LOL! Great! It means "gettin' ready" in proper Texan-speak.

Leave it to a republican to... (Below threshold)
Place name here:

Leave it to a republican to choose the definition to best make his case without first asking for an accurate account by the original author(s).

place name here:I ... (Below threshold)
Peter:

place name here:

I said Merriam-Webster. I picked the verb that appears in the memo. Are you really going to argue with the dictionary? LOL

place name here:Ac... (Below threshold)
Peter:

place name here:

Actually, you're arguing with the English language at large. 'Fixed' is used as a verb in the DSM. There's no getting around it. Sorry.

Place, what DOES the author... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Place, what DOES the author say?

Peter, are you also a Texian? I was born in Tom Green county (a fact of which I am inordinately proud) although my people are from Miles in Runnels county.

Tob

Are you British? can you ex... (Below threshold)
place name here:

Are you British? can you explain the defunct variations of launguage based upon active proximity of the core of the dialect in use? if so, lay it on me with your great wisdom of other nations cultures.

This whole 'conversation' t... (Below threshold)
ThePuppetHead:

This whole 'conversation' tickles me.

'RightWingGuy' -- Sprinkles in some Ad Hominem Attacks: Crazy Moonbats! Hate America! Don't support the troops! Tree Huggers! Filled with Hate! Then he chunks in a few straw men for good measure. Absolutely no facts. Does not use (or appear to understand the use of) reason.

'LeftWingGuy' -- [Reasonable Argument]! [Fact]! [Appeal to Reason]! Then he gets mad and throws in some insults: Nazi! Fascist! Heil Bush! etc. etc. Then maybe another more emotional [Appeal to Reason]! Arguments fall on deaf ears.

Sorry, just an observation. It's pretty funny.
We've fallen so low in this country that this is the way our political discourse inevitably plays out.

Of course Bush & Co. were determined to attack Iraq well before they actually invaded. That's confirmed and supported by source after source. Of course Hussein had little or no WMD -- we knew that all along. That's also confirmed and supported by source after source. Wolfowitz came right out and said that WMD wasn't the primary reason for invading -- it was simply a politically expediant explanation designed to garner popular support. It was never about WMD. It was never about 9/11. We've known that all along. All along, it has been centered around the NeoConservative idea that a democratic Iraq will start a 'domino effect' in the middle east, eventually leading to peace and stability in the region. If you believe that -- great. Support the war. If you think it's a crazy fantasy then protest the war.

Look at the news over the last 2 months, though. Think about it. Little cracks are appearing all over the dam, and it's starting to leak like crazy. Make no mistake, a political sh*tstorm is coming... may be a ways off yet, but it's coming. Those of us who lean farthest to the right might want to think about getting to higher ground. Just a suggesion.

Surely he doesn't write in ... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Surely he doesn't write in a defunct variation of language, although I do sometimes speak a defunct variant of yippie. (like its bean man, bean)

Tob

Well, I'm gonna have to dis... (Below threshold)
place name here:

Well, I'm gonna have to dispel any other argument and concur with ThePuppetHead.
g'night

I'm so tired of all these l... (Below threshold)

I'm so tired of all these liberals and their Godless
stance on the issues. Jesus taught love, but wasn't afraid to roll up his sleaves and fight people out of the temple. Iraq is a battle ground for Good (Christians) Vs Evil (The Muslims). You moonbats are afraid to admit that we need Iraq to push the cause of democracy and fight the godless, blood hungry, oil having terrorist.

Get a Bible and a clue.

Toby:Nah, just liv... (Below threshold)
Peter:

Toby:

Nah, just lived for a spell in good old TX. Enjoyed it. Too hot for this Seattlelite, though. Good people down there, though.

place name here:

What...no, how...on God's green Earth is the word "fixed" different in England than it is in the U.S. Answer: It's not. Proximity has nothing to do with the dialect in this instance. If it 'fixed' was said in Zulu, sure, you've got a point.

you completely missed the c... (Below threshold)
place name here:

you completely missed the cigarette/homosexual reference of the launguage divide, didn't you? pay attention and be less hopeless.

Fingers not move as brain. ... (Below threshold)
Peter:

Fingers not move as brain. Pardon the typos.

And Aaron, YES, opposing co... (Below threshold)
McCain:

And Aaron, YES, opposing communism was a darn good idea. You were on the wrong side of that ideological divide as well. Vietnam was a losing battle in a winning war. Too bad, right? Fight the good fight, Aaron. Communism & totalitarianism is bad. Democracy is good. Yay for us.

PNH:Oh, I got it. ... (Below threshold)
Peter:

PNH:

Oh, I got it. I just thought it was pointless and paid no attention to it. Fag=cigarette in the UK. Fag=homosexual in the US. Big deal. Yawn.

Israelites are Gods chosen ... (Below threshold)

Israelites are Gods chosen people. Our next target needs to be those Godless Palestinians. God promised the Jews that land in the Bible. And the Bible doesn't contain ANY false information. It is truly to be taken literal. If we're not careful, God is going to cover the earth completely in water again! Not the slow rising oceans from global warming, like those heretic lying scientists predict.

so.. you ignore that which ... (Below threshold)
place name here:

so.. you ignore that which would not argue on your behalf? now this is familiar RED territory. ;-)

PNH:No, ignore wha... (Below threshold)
Peter:

PNH:

No, ignore what has no point in the coversation as duly pointed out. I made my point, complete with a definition that's acceptable on either side of the Pond.

What the Hell is this and w... (Below threshold)
the mechanic:

What the Hell is this and what the Hell is a moonbat? Hey Ed, you are not only a coward but, a peckerhead as well...........

We should support the Presi... (Below threshold)

We should support the President's agenda for a 3rd term. This isn't just a man this is God's chosen one! How can we place limits on the term of someone who is, literally, Jesus Christ on earth?

Dont you know? Bush is the ... (Below threshold)
the mechanic:

Dont you know? Bush is the Antichrist. His plan will be incorperated in his 3rd term...

I am one of the "dead" or "... (Below threshold)
A Soldier's Mom:

I am one of the "dead" or "non-existant" people who signed the petition, and was proud to do so. I did not sign a DEMOCRAT'S petition asking for answers from a REPUBLICAN President. I am a citizen and mother of an American soldier asking for answers to some disturbing news. Period. How can you idiots go on and on about Democrats and Republicans, Right and Left, when this huge mass of crimes against ALL of American and Iraqi humanity is taking place? Oh, except the rich, famous and American politicians - no mistaking that, they have exemption cards. My son's about to serve his second full year in that hell hole.

It's no time to pick which side of the boat to row from, just grab a damn oar and paddle! We're ALL up the same creek. Don't fight amongst yourselves! Just row for God's sake..... I don't think we're up the creek without the paddles yet, unless idiots like many of you diminish the power of us all as "We the People".

God Bless us All.

A Soldier's Mom

Kill'em all, let God sort'e... (Below threshold)
the mechanic:

Kill'em all, let God sort'em out!

OK, who linked this post to... (Below threshold)
JimK:

OK, who linked this post to Moonbat Central.

Fess up. C'mon, confession is good for the soul.

Oh you laugh and mock. But... (Below threshold)

Oh you laugh and mock. But this is the TRUTH.

“That whosoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman” (2 Chronicles 15:13).

It takes a lot of lives to win the war for God. George Bush served his country proudly, now he leads it in the direction of God!

"“That whosoever would not ... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"“That whosoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman” (2 Chronicles 15:13)."

At least your reading it, even if just for mockery, there's still hope for you.

Tob

Michael-Your rant was quite... (Below threshold)
sues:

Michael-Your rant was quite amusing. You say we're supposed to look at our reasoning for supporting President Bush.

Yet your rant had absolutely no reasoning in it. It was all paranoid, delusional OPINIONS.

Democrats (Liberals) are so simpleminded that they believe that just because someone doesn't agree with them that that person is "dumb", merely “saying and doing what President Bush and the Neo Cons tell them to do and say.”

Maybe you should rethink your reasons. Opinions based on hate are rarely logical. And it's pretty clear that that is where you are.

I listen to all sides (even the liberal ones), and I decide what I believe, who has the most factually correct information, and whose beliefs are most like mine. Conservatives have a much more realistic, moral, compassionate stance, and that's partially why I'm a conservative. When liberal liken all conservatives, people who voted for Bush as "stupid" you turn off a large segment of the population to the democrats. Liberals are incredibly arrogant to think that if someone doesn't agree with your position that they are "stupid".

Oh, and Michael, I think you are pretty narrow minded and ignorant if the way you gauge someone’s intelligence is by the way they talk.

On the subject of scripture... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

On the subject of scripture, last Christmas, I received one of those One-a-Day bibles. The kind that you read a little bit every day and finish in a year. Its great, especially for people like me with short attentioon spans. I've read most of the bible over the years, a chapter here, a chapter there, but this method lets you just go straight through. I highly recommend it to believers and heathen alike. Know what your arguing about.

Tob

We have better than Baghdad... (Below threshold)
citizen:

We have better than Baghdad Bob - we have "DC Scott", we have "Washington Rummy", "Texas Chimp", and more

"It's no time to pick which... (Below threshold)
sue:

"It's no time to pick which side of the boat to row from, just grab a damn oar and paddle! We're ALL up the same creek. Don't fight amongst yourselves! Just row for God's sake..... I don't think we're up the creek without the paddles yet, unless idiots like many of you diminish the power of us all as "We the People"."

In other words, your side is the right side. Oh the irony.


Now I've seen everything.</... (Below threshold)
sue:

Now I've seen everything.

Moonbats impersonating Christians.

Idiots

We need to dig up some dirt... (Below threshold)
minnie:

We need to dig up some dirt on this Dearlove guy. How much do you want to bet he is a commie, or gay, or a gay commie. If that is the case we could make this all go away because then nothing he says matters.

Dearlove? That sounds like... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Dearlove? That sounds like a godless-commie-whitetail-lover pseudonym alrite!

I give up. I've googled un... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

I give up. I've googled until my fingers bled and I still can't find anywhere where Sir Richard Dearlove says what he meant by the word fixed in that context. Blair scoffed at the moon-bat interpetation but I find nothing from the author. Any links from anyone? I'm begging here.

Tob

CAN WE KEEP THIS DISCUSSION... (Below threshold)
AARON:

CAN WE KEEP THIS DISCUSSION ABOUT THE DOWNING STREET MEMO?

TO MR. DICTIONARY WHO DEFINED FIXED FOR US ANSWER THIS.

WHY WERE BUSH AND BLAIR 'FIXING' THE FACTS SO FAR IN ADVANCE? IT MEANS THAT THE PLAN TO GO TO WAR WAS IN PLACE WELL BEFORE WE THE PEOPLE WERE TOLD ABOUT IT, AND, WORSE YET, THAT THE WAR WAS GOING TO TAKE PLACE WHETHER OR NOT WMDS WERE FOUND, WHETHER OR NOT THE UN APPROVED, AND WHETHER OR NOT WE THE PEOPLE APPROVED. THE PROBLEM WITH BUSH IS THAT HE THINKS HE IS ON A MISSION FROM GOD TO BRING DEMOCRACY TO THE PLANET. I THINK LUCIFER IS ACTUALLY THE ONE WISPERING IN HIS EAR. THE KEY WORD FOR EVIL HERE IS PRE EMPTIVE. WE WERE NOT ATTACKED BY IRAQ. SAUDI ARABIA NATIONALS WERE TEN OF THE THIRTEEN HIGHJACKERS, BUT WE ARE TOO BUSY KISSING THE SAUDI ROAYALS ASSES BECAUSE THEY HAPPEN TO SIT ON THE BIGGEST OIL RESERVE ON THE PLANET. THE BUSH FAMILY HAS BEEN IN BED WITH THE SAUDI'S SINCE GEORGE SENIOR WAS PRESIDENT. AND YES IT'S TRUE, THE BIN LADEN FAMILY. IT IS ALSO TRUE THAT THE BIN LADEN FAMILY MADE BILLIONS IN THE OIL GAME JUST LIKE BUSH. OSAMA JUST HAPPENED TO BECOME A TERRORIST INSTEAD OF AN OIL TYCOON IN A SUIT. THE SAUDI GOVERNMENT HAS MORE CONTROL OVER OUR ECONOMY THAN MOST AMERICAN BUSINESS DO. BUSH IS DOING TOO MUCH TO PLEASE BIG BUSINESS AND SCREW THE EVERYMAN LIKE US.

PUT THAT IN YOUR PIPE AND SMOKE IT.

Your sophomoric derision ma... (Below threshold)
R. Brady:

Your sophomoric derision may fool a few other lifelong sophomores.

"We need to dig up some dir... (Below threshold)
Gavin:

"We need to dig up some dirt on this Dearlove guy. How much do you want to bet he is a commie, or gay, or a gay commie. If that is the case we could make this all go away because then nothing he says matters.

Posted by: minnie ..."

I don't think you realise that this kind of nastiness is endemic solely to the likes of dailykos and DU. It stands out a mile, even if you are weakly trying to reverse the direction of your normal viciousness. As a former leftie, it genuinely depresses me :(

Adjust cap-lock dingus. Mo... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Adjust cap-lock dingus. Most people don't even bother to read rants in ALL-CAPS.

Okay, I did read the rant</... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Okay, I did read the rant

"BUSH IS DOING TOO MUCH TO PLEASE BIG BUSINESS AND SCREW THE EVERYMAN LIKE US."

Speak for yourself there white man, EVERYMAN I'm not.

I AM UBERMAN! HEAR ME AND OBEY!

Tob

The British documents paint... (Below threshold)
Melissa:

The British documents paint a picture of a man determined on a course and willing to do whatever was needed to follow his course. For those of you who are vehement in your defense of Bush. My question is why? He lied to you on the right as well as the rest of us. Why do you want a leader who would use a tragedy to usurp your civil rights and lead our nation into a horrible war? He isn't the man you thought he was, accept it and move on. The saying (one of them) that Bush couldn't get right , goes. You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. Don't be fooled because you bought the lie, it happens to all of us. Let's have an investigation and find out the truth.

WHY AFGANISTAN? WHY IRAQ? T... (Below threshold)
AARON:

WHY AFGANISTAN? WHY IRAQ? THESE ARE VALID QUESTIONS. ALL THE EMOTION RIDING IN THIS COUNTRY AFTER 9-11 HAS BEEN USED FOR EVIL INSTEAD OF GOOD. IS THIS ABOUT TERRORISTS? NO! IS THIS ABOUT WMDS? NO! IT IS ABOUT OIL. IT IS ABOUT CONTROL IN A DANGEROUS REGION. I WOULD PERSONALLY HAVE HAD A LOT MORE RESPECT FOR W IF HE WOULD HAVE JUST GAVE IT TO US STRAIGHT. 'WE NEED OIL.' OR 'WE NEED TO PROTECT ISRAEL FROM ITS MUSLIM NEIGHBORS.

AND TO JESUS LOVES. WAY TO PREACH HATE. 'ALL MUSLIMS ARE EVIL.' THAT SOUNDS LIKE HATE SPEECH TO ME. HAVE YOU EVER MET A MUSLIM? 99% ARE PEACEFUL PEOPLE. IT IS EXREMISTS ON BOTH SIDES, THE JIHAD MUSLIMS, AND THE CHRISTIAN EXREMEISTS SAYING THAT ALL MUSLIMS ARE EVIL, THAT IS GOING TO TAKE US TO A PLACE WHERE WE DO NOT WANT TO GO.

It's not "fixed"; it's "fix... (Below threshold)
fatman:

It's not "fixed"; it's "fixed AROUND". Changes the whole meaning of the sentence.

If, as AARON says, 99% of a... (Below threshold)
fatman:

If, as AARON says, 99% of all Muslims are peaceful and there are approximately 1.2 BILLION Muslims in the world, then that means that 12 MILLION of them want to kill us. Scary.

FATMAN - IT IS KIND OF IGNO... (Below threshold)
AARON:

FATMAN - IT IS KIND OF IGNORANT AND EVIL TO JUST SAY 'LETS KILL THEM BEFORE THEY KILL US' AGREED?

Fixed around not fixed. hmm... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Fixed around not fixed. hmmm What does that mean? You would think that a vast conspiracy to go to war would have more threads than this. I ask again. What does the author think he was saying? He's not dead you know. Just retired. I can't believe that Dearlove isn't saying. I just have to assume that I'm missing it. Isn't this a big deal in England? I just can't get excited without hearing from the author of the memo. Any links?

Tob

No. But since I ne... (Below threshold)
fatman:

No.

But since I never said "LETS KILL THEM BEFORE THEY KILL US", what's your point?

I NEVER SAID THAT ISRAEL SH... (Below threshold)
AARON:

I NEVER SAID THAT ISRAEL SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AN ALLY. THEY ARE OUR ALLY. I SIMPLY STATED THAT IF GOING TO IRAQ WAS ALL ABOUT OIL, AND PROTECTING ISRAEL, SAY SO. DON'T MAKE UP ALL THIS CRAP AND LIE TO THE WORLD ABOUT WMDS WHEN WE KNEW THEY WERE NOT THERE, AND SAY THAT IT'S ABOUT SAVING THE IRAQI PEOPLE FROM OPPRESSION. THERE ARE A LOT OF OPPRESSIVE REGIMES IN THE WORLD. WHO ARE WE TO SAY THAT THEY ARE WRONG, AND THAT THEY SHOULD DO THINGS OUR WAY. WHO'S TO SAY THAT WE ARE RIGHT'.

Aarron, they say too much p... (Below threshold)
McCain:

Aarron, they say too much pot smoking affects one's hearing. When you come out of your very liberal hippie drug thing, feel free to adjust your caps volume.

By the way, you did not respond to my post on Vietnam where I stated that communism was well worth opposing. You were on the wrong side of that ideological divide, just as you are on the wrong side of history now. Care to explain why you support communists, tyrants, and thugs? Got anything good to say about democracy, or are you eating from the trough of Chomsky?

Invasion of the Body Snatch... (Below threshold)
ROFWL:

Invasion of the Body Snatchers. The left must be in the last throes of desperation if they think spamming a conservative site will help their cause.

"WHO'S TO SAY THAT WE ARE R... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"WHO'S TO SAY THAT WE ARE RIGHT"

I am. We are right.

Tob

Indeed, moral relativism re... (Below threshold)
McCain:

Indeed, moral relativism reaches its logical conclusion. Aaron is neither right nor wrong, knows neither right nor wrong. That leaves right for whomever claims it. I'm with Toby. Aaron, I'm afraid that liberals are very very wrong, and I'm afraid that your pathetic philosophy known as moral relativism is unable to disagree with me.

McCain, I think its deeper ... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

McCain, I think its deeper than that. I think that we're right until proven wrong. I give my nation the benefit of the doubt. AARON and some of the other posters just assume we are wrong until proven right. I pray G_d that we are proven right and that our nation has the fortitude to carry on.

The only thing worse that war is losing a war.

Tob

McCain, I do really like yo... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

McCain, I do really like your idea that if right and wrong, good and evil are just laying there because some people can't make up their minds, be the one to pick them up.

I'll try to remember to attribute you but I'll probably just end up stealing your metaphor.

Tob

Toby, those who oppose tyra... (Below threshold)
McCain:

Toby, those who oppose tyranny in the world are always right. History is a slow progression toward more individual liberty, and those who facilitate it are on the side of right. We are right regardless of the outcome, which I do expect to be positive but one never can know for sure. Certainly reecent events throughout the middle east are favorable for freedom as a direct result of this country the liberals so hate. Our liberal friends are in the odd position of arguing with some trees in the forest, and losing sight of the forest itself.

Damn, you good. A fitting ... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Damn, you good. A fitting end to an amusing thread. Goodnight.

Tob

Goodnight.I hope s... (Below threshold)
McCain:

Goodnight.

I hope someone does a tally of "Chomsky", "The Man", and "Bush Lied" in this thread. You gotta love the predictable shallowness of the neurotic liberal.

Sorry. My last comment (^^)... (Below threshold)
fatman:

Sorry. My last comment (^^) was a reply to AARON, not Toby928.

Hmmmmm.1. Looks li... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmmm.

1. Looks like WizBang got "liberated" by flying monkeys from DU. Take a pill folks. No matter what you write here, and particularly if it's verbose garbage, you won't convince people of anything. It takes facts, not prose, to change minds. Endlessly shouting about Bush, lied, died, oil, Halliburton, McChimpyWhatever accomplishes nothing.

2. Whatever happened to that GannonGate stuff?

3. If you have to rely on the half-remembered notes and writing style of a junior official of a foreign government concerning a meeting that one official had the week previous, then not only do you not have any credibility, you're a fool.

But hey, go right ahead and keep on screaming. When this little balloon goes pop, it'll be all the more amusing.

4. I'm 42 years old and single with kidney failure. My USMC days are long gone. If I had working kidneys I'd have already reenlisted, or tried to. But you go right ahead with that whole "chickenhawk" nonsense. It'll be all that more *delicious* when it comes right back at you. At some point in the future there will maybe be another Democrat in the White House.

It'll be amusing to see you all justify any military action whatsoever. And I, along with everyone else on the Right, will be here mocking you for not enlisting.

5. Please don't quote Scripture unless you really believe in the Bible. I'm not a Christian myself, but it's incredibly rude when non-believers start quoting Scripture.

And seriously, it just makes people who *really* know their Scripture think you're a complete buffoon.

6. I start all my posts with "Hmmm". As a sort of signature. Since I used 'ed', which is neither very creative nor distinctive, it's useful tool. It also makes it easy for me to find my posts by searching for it.

7. And I'd suggest everyone on the left to stop using the whole "nazi" nonsense. I know a very nice old German lady, lovely person really, who actually was a nazi. If you talked to her for more than 10 minutes, you'd know the difference.

8. If we went into Iraq for oil, then where the hell is the oil? The simple fact is that Saddam would have made any deal to lift sanctions and get America off his back. If Bush offered to lift sanctions, and left Saddam alone to do whatever he wanted in Iraq, for 1 million barrels of free oil a day, Saddam would have jumped at it.

Every time someone starts in on the whole oil thing, and it just makes me lose interest.

9. You can disagree with Bush. But calling him evil just makes you look like an idiot. Sorry, but that's true. The US government is not a monolithic structure. There are many differing factions within it, so pushing the idea that somehow Bush is going to impose a facist regime bent on world domination just makes you look foolish.

LOL at the Mad Hatter's Imp... (Below threshold)
Levitator:

LOL at the Mad Hatter's Impeachment Party ... what's next, levitating the Pentagon?

Oops, wait, the moonbats have already tried that one ...

Ah, Ed. You're back. ... (Below threshold)
porn star convention:

Ah, Ed. You're back.

So, you going to enlist, send a kid, a nephew, a neice, anything?

You know they need troops, right?

Don't you want to fight for freedom?

Right now you are objectively pro-Insurgent.

Toby928:A linguist... (Below threshold)
fatman:

Toby928:

A linguist could do a better job of this than I can, but here goes.

"Fixed" (in this context) would mean deliberately and illegally altered to support the desired outcome (providing an excuse to go to war against Iraq). "Fixed around" (in this context) would mean searching for--and paying more attention to--intelligence that supported the belief that Saddam had W.M.D. and downplaying or disregarding intelligence that didn't. Not good, perhaps, but not a lie either. More importantly, it WAS understandable. Even Hans Blix said that there were between 600 and 1000 TONS of material unaccounted for. (Either weapons or materials used to make weapons). Of course Saddam claimed he had unilaterally destroyed them (and it now seems he did), but who in their right mind would have believed him at the time?

Futhermore, the British (after internal reviews) are standing behind their intelligence report about Saddam's attempts to buy yellowcake(uranium) from Niger.

I agree with fucknut above,... (Below threshold)
porn star convention:

I agree with fucknut above, and we should tally "bush lied".

The total won't be nearly enough.

Here's another for you true believers...bush lied.

Oh, that stings, don't it? Here's a retort.

Clinton lied.

Oh yes. It's true. The fuck lied about getting a hummer in the oval office. If only he were sending troops to die for an ever-changing reason! Then we would have rallied around him like we do around this new and improved president of moral value!

I really have a hard time finding conservaties I respect anymore b/c they all seem to be reduced to a moral relativism I find troubling.

Darfur and the Gosh visit anyone?

just for the record, Toby i... (Below threshold)
porn star convention:

just for the record, Toby is relying on Hans Blix's assesment of a situation.

U.N. Traitor! All circle around Toby and beat him with sticks!

Do we want to be taking the word of the U.N.?!?!?!

Ah, hypocrisy is fun to watch. Go Toby Go!

And yes Toby, a cunning linguist could do better than you ever could, but let's not get into a situation where we have to parse words. I know you upstanding types hate that..."Sex? What is the meaning of the word "sex"?"

I know how you guys have no need for such nonsense.

Ed, One last thoug... (Below threshold)
porn star convention:

Ed,

One last thought, point 8.

I actually hope bushcheneyrumsfeld went to war for oil. You know why? Because it is the only illegal reason that makes sense. They don't really care about human rights (China, Sudan, Uzbek) unless it's some kind of trade outweighs human rights thing or one leader killing his people isn't as bad as another killing his people. We are supporting, right now, and today, and with our tax dollars today, regimes that are opressing their citizens (Uzbek, Sudan). We are open trade partners with another (China) and that is OKAY with the U.S. We DEFEND FREEDOM don't we? We just fight for a slogan.

It is about the oil, doofus. All the other reasons come after and none of them would be reason enough to invade any country without the oil reserves. You get it? Darfur? Oh, awful. Serbia? Clinton was a fuck for doing such a thing. We care all about human rights cuz wer're the Superman of countries, right?

We are moving to cement our position as a superpower for the next few decades. How? Control the nation with some of the most generous supplies of oil that we know of.

Think from the perspective of a Risk game. You are a huge nation that is hugely depenant upon a limited resource. The nations that control the resource are largely against you (except the Saudis - you got it going on with them).

What would be the best move?

Find a ruler you can take out. Who is the weakest? Not just militarily weak but weak because he has pissed off his neighbors. Weak because you've done business with him in the past and you know his secrets.

Oh, and he tried to bite back by trying to kill your dad.

Take the fucker out.

and that's what we did and that's as far ahead as we thought. Pretty good up to that point.

Ugh. just got shot by the CIA...

Hmmmm."Ah, Ed. You... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

"Ah, Ed. You're back."

Spreading the wealth of my personal being.

"So, you going to enlist, send a kid, a nephew, a neice, anything?"

Nice of you to notice I'm back, but rather pathetic of you to not actually read what I wrote.

Frankly I did a tour in the USMC at *the* worst duty station in the entire Corps. I paid my dues twenty times over. My base was the only one in the USMC where Marines had to reenlist twice to leave. That should tell you how bad it was.

"You know they need troops, right?"

Really? Had no idea. Wonder why it's not in the news.

"Don't you want to fight for freedom?"

Already have, now it's your turn.

"Right now you are objectively pro-Insurgent."

I thought all you moonbats had finished mating. I see one is still a cull.

Hmmmm."Think from ... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

"Think from the perspective of a Risk game."

Yeah that's the ticket! Aw yeah! What I really need at 2:18am is someone teaching tactics from a ficticious game of Risk.

Next. Political chicanery as taught in Cribbage.

porn star convention:... (Below threshold)
fatman:

porn star convention:

Uh, no, toby928 isn't relying on Hans Blix's assessment of a situation. I am. As in "Even Hans Blix said that there were between 600 and 1000 TONS of materials unaccounted for. (Either weapons or materials used to make weapons)."

What I SHOULD have typed was "Even Hans Blix (who couldn't find his own ass with both hands, a map, a flashlight and a troop of Boy Scouts) said...etc.etc".

I must reassess. It appear... (Below threshold)
McCain:

I must reassess. It appears that my liberal friends like Porn Star have exchanged depressants for speed. Liberals know all the best drugs.

Porn Star, is it a good thing that Saddam Hussein is out of power? Try answering that simple question without tying yourself into knots. You may find a beautiful meadow on the other side of your spooky old forest, but you first have to stop winding around in endless circles.

Melissa- "Don't be fooled b... (Below threshold)
sues:

Melissa- "Don't be fooled because you bought the lie, it happens to all of us."

Liberals have a very odd definition of the word lied. Liberals seem to define "LIED" as saying something believing it to be true and then finding out later that it isn't. Therefore Bush LIED.

The definition of the word “lie” is saying something knowing that it is not true.

Now, you tell me, with links where President Bush said something KNOWING that it was not true. Remember you have to prove it. Because it's your opinion does not make it true.

Given that you can't prove that President Bush lied when he took us to war then it follows that whoever is giving you the information that Bush LIED is actually lying to you.

All that memo proves is that President Bush was doing his job and gathering the data and making plans for war so that if going to the UN and talking to Sadam failed plans were already in place. So what if he thought that war was inevitable? He still did all the things he needed to do to try to advert it.

And lastly quit patronizing us with the-get on the bandwagon, you know you’re wrong, just admit it, it’s nothing to be ashamed of crap. That tactic has NO chance of changing anyone’s mind.


It is a funny how the moonb... (Below threshold)

It is a funny how the moonbats are all showing up in Wizbang on this particular issue. You don't hear from them all that regularly here until . . . they think they can get Bush impeached.

Oooh, they can feel it . . . sooo close this time . . . . this one is the real deal . . . they can taste it . . . they just want it soooo badly . . . .

If they just keep the pressure up, raise their voices, go to to righty blogs and write lots of impassioned comments with lots of ALL CAPS SCREAMING and tell the repugs off - we'll all know they are serious this time!

Good morning. I'm surprise... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Good morning. I'm surprised that this thread still lives. Fatman, thanks for the explanation. Its not that I don't understand fixed or fixed around, its just that I understand it my way as you understand it your way. It seems to me that, since I'm not a deconstructionist, that what we want is to understand it the authors way. I wish he would flesh it out. Blair gave his explanation which doesn't support that of the IMPEACH HIM NOW!!! and ernest "wake up people" crowd but that may be ass-covering. Even if it did mean what they say it does, it just seems to me that the administration was stressing or "fixing" the intelligece where the likenlyhood of agreement and support from allies was greatest. So?

I think that I'm just rephraing your post and that we are basically in agreement. This is just to ambigious to get excited about and the chance of any repercussions for Bush are slim. IHMO.

Tob

It is a funny how the m... (Below threshold)
Clive Tolson:

It is a funny how the moonbats are all showing up in Wizbang on this particular issue. You don't hear from them all that regularly here until . . . they think they can get Bush impeached.

Just three weeks ago Pundit Now, I came to Wizbang to find Kevin's post pronouncing the DSM had 'fizzled', having been ignored by the media. A week later, he claimed it discredited based on the colloquial interpretation of the word 'fixed'. In addition, I called him on his repeated claim that the British government author(s) of the DSM had discredited it - only to find my comment post deleted.

I will not hold my breath either waiting for a Wizbang link to Conyer's">http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/06/why-does-washington-post-hate-america.html">Conyer's detailed response to the Post's Dana Milbanks' hatchet job, knowing facts and accuracy are irrelevant to the Right these days.

But, I'm surprised (and happy) to say that a more substantive debate on the DSM revelations are taking place all over broadcast news, the web and newspapers not owned by the Moonies. I come to Wizbang to gage the levels of hypocrisy and pettiness, which only serves to pacify those of you on the Right and fuel your continued self-destructive denial.

"which only serves to pacif... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"which only serves to pacify those of you on the Right and fuel your continued self-destructive denial."

Yikes, you hit the nail on the head Clive. No doubt we will start losing elections now. ;-)

Seriously though, at this time conservatives and ant-war liberals are talking past each other. When the war is over I'm sure we will find things to feel guilty about but for right now, I'm just in a state of healthy bigotry toward progressives. I just assume they are wrong unless proven right. (see my post above) Hell, during WW2 we burned down whole cities, while totally dehumanizing our adversaries. If the terrorists represented a nation-state instead of hiding among the innocent, we would do the same thing again and feel guilty when the war is over, but only when then war is over. Remember Halsey's statement on Dec 8th, "When this war is over, Japanese will be a language spoken only in hell". That's total war, something we can no longer do. (unless we get hit again like 9/11 and then al bets are off)

You guys should be hoping for victory as soon as possible so that we can get back to arguing about income distribution or opportunity again.

The only thing worse than war, is losing a war.

Tob

PS I'm out of this thread as I start my vacation in the mountains with my hermit-like liberal buddys, right this instant, seriously. Y'all have fun)

Well Clive I for one have n... (Below threshold)

Well Clive I for one have never underestimated the ability of the Left to puff up an issue way beyond its real importance. Kevin has done a yeoman's task in debunking the DSM, and the fact that the issue won't go away because the Left dearly clings to it and is keeping it on life support hardly proves Kevin wrong.

I can't speak for Kevin, but I for one do not mind debating this issue for as long as it takes, because you guys have not nailed this issue down, nor can you. The fact that people like Michael Kinsley are dismissing it should be your clue that reasonable minds can differ.

Seriously, between this tinfoil hat rehashing, Howard Dean's foot-in-mouth disease, the apings of the ChimpyMcBushitler moonbats, pointless senate obstructionism, Durbin calling the military the Khmer Rouge, and the heartfelt anguish over terrorists in Gitmo, the Democratic party is in full meltdown.

You think the DSM is damaging to Bush? Bush might not end up the victim of these baseless charges. It could end up being the Democratic party, as legions of its erstwhile members flee lunacy for common sense.

What do Monica and Dumbya h... (Below threshold)
Marco:

What do Monica and Dumbya have in common?


They both found the way "down" at the White House!


Haaaaaaaaaa-Haaaaaaaaaa,

Why is the right always wrong?

Marco Moonbat,Why ... (Below threshold)

Marco Moonbat,

Why do the Republicans keep winning elections and taking seats from the Democrats.

Because the Left and the Democratic party are consistently wrong.

You know wrong, as not right.

Moonbats are just going to remain moonbats.

Dear Hmmmmm.1. Loo... (Below threshold)
Rus:

Dear Hmmmmm.

1. Looks like WizBang got "liberated" by flying monkeys from DU. Take a pill folks. No matter what you write here, and particularly if it's verbose garbage, you won't convince people of anything. It takes facts, not prose, to change minds. Endlessly shouting about Bush, lied, died, oil, Halliburton, McChimpyWhatever accomplishes nothing.

It's a rallying cry, like bandaides with purple hearts.

2. Whatever happened to that GannonGate stuff?

So much for the liberal media scam. Imagine if it was Clinton who had a male prostitute in his pocket?

3. If you have to rely on the half-remembered notes and writing style of a junior official of a foreign government concerning a meeting that one official had the week previous, then not only do you not have any credibility, you're a fool.

But hey, go right ahead and keep on screaming. When this little balloon goes pop, it'll be all the more amusing.

The Downing Street Memos (there are more than one, and theor seems to be no end of them) are minutes of meetings between the head of MI6 (their CIA) and Tony Blair).


4. I'm 42 years old and single with kidney failure. My USMC days are long gone. If I had working kidneys I'd have already reenlisted, or tried to. But you go right ahead with that whole "chickenhawk" nonsense. It'll be all that more *delicious* when it comes right back at you. At some point in the future there will maybe be another Democrat in the White House.

It'll be amusing to see you all justify any military action whatsoever. And I, along with everyone else on the Right, will be here mocking you for not enlisting.

I give you about as much credibility as I gave the Swift Boat Liars. How a vet from ANY war could support how Bush is treating our troops today is beyoond me.

5. Please don't quote Scripture unless you really believe in the Bible. I'm not a Christian myself, but it's incredibly rude when non-believers start quoting Scripture.

And seriously, it just makes people who *really* know their Scripture think you're a complete buffoon.

I thought you guys believe we ALL live in a Christian Nation?

6. I start all my posts with "Hmmm". As a sort of signature. Since I used 'ed', which is neither very creative nor distinctive, it's useful tool. It also makes it easy for me to find my posts by searching for it (in my drunken stupor)

7. And I'd suggest everyone on the left to stop using the whole "nazi" nonsense. I know a very nice old German lady, lovely person really, who actually was a nazi. If you talked to her for more than 10 minutes, you'd know the difference.

If the shoe fits, wear it.

8. If we went into Iraq for oil, then where the hell is the oil? The simple fact is that Saddam would have made any deal to lift sanctions and get America off his back. If Bush offered to lift sanctions, and left Saddam alone to do whatever he wanted in Iraq, for 1 million barrels of free oil a day, Saddam would have jumped at it.

Every time someone starts in on the whole oil thing, and it just makes me lose interest.

And Bush also went into office as a fiscal conservative and we're up to our eyeballs in debt. Also that the war would pay for itself, we'd be greeted with flowers and candy. Bush said that he was a uniter, not a divider. Need I go on? It's not like there is anything like a track record of these guys being competent. They're idealogs.

But that's not to say that "we" don't have oil. Exxon is making 1 billion dollars PROFIT a month, THEY have oil. If you're an oil company you're doing great. "We" the people are getting screwed.
As it should be if you're an oil man. You're jacking up the price as high as possible when you control more of the supply.

9. You can disagree with Bush. But calling him evil just makes you look like an idiot. Sorry, but that's true. The US government is not a monolithic structure. There are many differing factions within it, so pushing the idea that somehow Bush is going to impose a facist regime bent on world domination just makes you look foolish.

THIS government is becoming a monolithic structure. All Neocon. Even the lobbyists have to be far right Republicans (ie K Street Project).

And Bush, as these memos prove, brought our troops to war, over lies. Isn't that evil enough for you?

Like most of you on the Ri... (Below threshold)
Clive Tolson:

Like most of you on the Right, Toby and Pundit Now,

You act as though the last disastrous 7 months of Bush's second term never happened! You're the ones spinning conspiracy theories of Liberal bias afraid to acknowledge current polls. And, you're the ones acting as though Bush's Nov. 2nd majority is still solidly behind him.

As for the Downing Street Memo, there's no trial the Democrats are engaged in having to provide you proof of Bush's guilt. Which, by the way, you never seem to demand from the Swift Boat Liars!Yet similarly, we will lay out the evidence and allow the American people to decide.

So, while your idea of 'debate' on Wizbang consists of nothing but petty insults, be certain there's more important discussions that look nothing like this comment thread.

Hmmmm."Which, by t... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

"Which, by the way, you never seem to demand from the Swift Boat Liars!"

The SBV proved most of their assertions directly from military recortds, Kerry's authorized biographies, the senate record and Kerry's own on-the-record words. Trying to spin it away won't work.

Hmmmm."And Bush, a... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

"And Bush, as these memos prove, brought our troops to war, over lies. Isn't that evil enough for you?"

ROFLMAO!

Thank you, that brought a big smile to my face.

"So much for the liberal media scam. Imagine if it was Clinton who had a male prostitute in his pocket?"

I'm sure liberals would shrug and accuse Republicans of being homophobes.

LOL.

America has a great shame t... (Below threshold)
Jim:

America has a great shame to contend with. Not our war in Iraq, but our tolerance of the left and their complete lack of propriety.

The shame our country is covered with is that we tolerate these lying hate baiters who are intent on turning our country into a socialist (or worse) haven.

Vote em out of office and NEVER let em get back there!

To PaulFrom "dumbass... (Below threshold)
gordon:

To Paul
From "dumbass", a fellow Wizbanger.
You headlined me and misquoted me as well. I should feel privileged. LOL.

Anyway,Commander Swift talking to Senate judiciary committee this week

A trial "says as much about the society that holds the trial as it does about the individual before it," Commander Swift reminded the Senate. "Our trials in the United States reflect who we are."

Thought you might be interested in this, just to take you out of your dittohead bubble.

And please don't ban any of the military or Senator Specter who, apparently, seem to hold the same views as i do. Anyway, good luck.

This has been an interestin... (Below threshold)
Raye:

This has been an interesting read, lots of nasty insults. What are all you guys on the right so afraid of?
I don't know how anyone can still suggest that we have a liberal bias in our media today. Not after the relentless pursuit of Pres. Clinton's personal behavior leading to his lie(it was foolish to give his enemies something to trash him with)
But since we have now made that the standard of Presidential investigation . . . Yeah, I would like to see the press give the same depth of attention to this Gannon fellow. What was he doing in the Whitehouse for hours and hours when there wasn't even a Press Conference? Have any of you seen the log reports on the dates & minutes he was there? Sometimes he arrived or left without one of the entries being recorded---what entrance or exit was he using. What kind of security is that? Interesting that he's a prostitute/journalist with almost no credentials for the latter while there are apparently adaquate credentials for the former. Who's little friend is he anyway?
And was he in fact the boy who disappeared in Iowa?
A Soldier's Mom with a son in Iraq was treated shabbily. Very nice, guys. Very Christian.
Did any of you listen to the hearing on the Downing Street Minutes? The audio archieve is still available if you care to know what really happened and who really said what.
http://www.pacifica.org/programs/20050616_Downing_Street_Memo_Hearings_Special_John_Conyers.html

If you truly care about this country--perhaps it would be---oh, ya know----maybe smart---to educate yourself---see if there is any merit to the many authors (the ones with real credentials and real research) who are concerned about this administration ---their motives and methods--the impact they are having on our freedoms and Constitution and our standing in the world. If you are sure that you already know---you can't learn ANYTHING new. What is being asked here is an examination and if in fact, there is no import to the Downing Minutes---well then your man is vindicated. The stonewalling, the demeaning and insulting behavior suggests that there is something to hide. Or something that would destroy a closely held and valued belief. Some people would rather be dead than wrong--many would rather that foreign innocents were dead or the children of their neighbors were killed or maimed than even look at the possibility that their beliefs and trust could be misplaced. That is not patriotism its personal vanity and personal cowardous at the expense of others.

Previewing your Comment... (Below threshold)
Raye:

Previewing your Comment

This has been an interesting read, lots of nasty insults. What are all you guys on the right so afraid of?
I don't know how anyone can still suggest that we have a liberal bias in our media today. Not after the relentless pursuit of Pres. Clinton's personal behavior leading to his lie(it was foolish to give his enemies something to trash him with)
But since we have now made that the standard of Presidential investigation . . . Yeah, I would like to see the press give the same depth of attention to this Gannon fellow. What was he doing in the Whitehouse for hours and hours when there wasn't even a Press Conference? Have any of you seen the log reports on the dates & minutes he was there? Sometimes he arrived or left without one of the entries being recorded---what entrance or exit was he using. What kind of security is that? Interesting that he's a prostitute/journalist with almost no credentials for the latter while there are apparently adaquate credentials for the former. Who's little friend is he anyway?
And was he in fact the boy who disappeared in Iowa?
A Soldier's Mom with a son in Iraq was treated shabbily. Very nice, guys. Very Christian.
Did any of you listen to the hearing on the Downing Street Minutes? The audio archieve is still available if you care to know what really happened and who really said what.
http://www.pacifica.org/programs/20050616_Downing_Street_Memo_Hearings_Special_John_Conyers.html

If you truly care about this country--perhaps it would be---oh, ya know----maybe smart---to educate yourself---see if there is any merit to the many authors (the ones with real credentials and real research) who are concerned about this administration ---their motives and methods--the impact they are having on our freedoms and Constitution and our standing in the world. If you are sure that you already know---you can't learn ANYTHING new. What is being asked here is an examination and if in fact, there is no import to the Downing Minutes---well then your man is vindicated. The stonewalling, the demeaning and insulting behavior suggests that there is something to hide. Or something that would destroy a closely held and valued belief. Some people would rather be dead than wrong--many would rather that foreign innocents were dead or the children of their neighbors were killed or maimed than even look at the possibility that their beliefs and trust could be misplaced. That is not patriotism its personal vanity and personal cowardous at the expense of others.

If Bush and the media found... (Below threshold)
Danya:

If Bush and the media found it so easy to shrug off a million protestors before the war had even begun I have no confidence that 540,000 email signatures on a petition will be taken any more seriously.

If Bush could carry enough of an approval rating to slide through the last election, regardless of who his opponent was, I believe there is an important segment of our population that will support him no matter what he lies about or how badly he damages our economy, our security, or anything else he lays his hands on. I think they'd even approve if he were to get a BJ in the oval office from someone other than Laura.

I don't think this group cares about anything except gaining and keeping power for the sole purpose of lording it over their enemies and allies alike. If this group, not counting the religious nuts, believe in anything else I haven't figured out what it could be. Do they care about spreading democracy and nation building? Hell no. The Constitution? Pthhht. Government intrusions on privacy? Nope, they let them in to their bedrooms. The deficit and out of control government spending? BAHHAHHAAA, it is to laugh.

The only possible thing that I can see turning them away from Bush and his lunatic PNAC fringe is the increasingly obvious fact that they lack any ability to win in Iraq or anywhere else. They don't have the intellectual tools necessary to bring to the table and no amount of bluster or shock and awe can compensate for what they're lacking in the long run. Plus, they do not have a firm grip on reality and the possiblility that they might still decide to expand their war into Syria or Iran is a definate concern. While the facts on the ground would restrain any competent, sane military leaders they matter not a whit to these delusional think tank warriors because they simply haven't a clue.

The impression of an emasculated America (and worse, an emasculated Republican Party) may prove to be too much for the ego of even the most sychophantic Bush lovers out there. Eventually they may realize it's time to jump ship and cut their weakest links loose and sacrifice them to the angry masses who want to see them fry. In the mean time the GOP regroups, reorganizes, and again beat the crap out of Democrats in the next election.

It's could happen.

Well said danyaThe... (Below threshold)
gordon:

Well said danya

The wingnuts don't seem to realize that if they keep on supporting their PNAC buddies, their ass is going to hit the dusty main street in Damascus quicker than they can say "Rush Limb..."

From the AP:"The eig... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

From the AP:
"The eight memos — all labeled "secret" or "confidential" — were first obtained by British reporter Michael Smith, who has written about them in The Daily Telegraph and The Sunday Times.

Smith told AP he protected the identity of the source he had obtained the documents from by typing copies of them on plain paper and destroying the originals"

Got that, Gordo?

'Smith told AP he protected the identity of the source he had obtained the documents from by typing copies of them on plain paper and destroying the originals'

Bwahahaha! Not only are the 'facts' in these 'memos' irrelevant and/or wrong, but they're fake too!

That's ok...the information... (Below threshold)
Danya:

That's ok...the information in these memos are what will lead to Bush's undoing...btw, the latest leak was released today. I have a feeling these are going to be a weekly treat for those of us cheering for Bush's lies to catch up with him in a big way. I wonder if he's worried and pissed off over the gall of this person who he has no way of attacking with his GOP smear machine and right wing media echo chamber. It must be so frustrating to have to sit back and take it while he watches his poll numbers continue on their freefall. I love that Bush thinks he's going to be able to fix it all with a PR campaign and nothing else. Bahhahhaa! I hope he wastes many precious weeks or months on this brilliant strategy.

But as much as I enjoy watching him struggle and twist in the wind I also fear what he's capable of if he becomes desperate enough. I haven't forgotten how he earned all the necessary capital and record approval numbers without any personal effort on ability on his part thanks to 9/11. I'm sure he hasn't forgotten his glory days either. The war in Iraq has proven his willingness to risk as many lives as necessary for no good reason at all...just because he feels like it. Imagine how many he'd risk if he actually HAD a reason. If only he wasn't so unbalanced I'd be better able to enjoy watching his downfall...the man has to ruin everything, I tell ya.

Adding my two cents to the ... (Below threshold)
Wanderlust:

Adding my two cents to the conversation:

* To those who say something along the lines of, "if you believe in the war, why don't you join it?"

Well, I can't join it because I am soon to be 40, and my eyesight kept me from joining in back in 1993. I wanted to fly Pave Lows for SOCOM, but my eyesight was 20/50 (disqualifying) and when I thought I'd get RK surgery to correct it, I found out that RK was even more disqualifying.

After I finished my MBA in 1998, I talked to a USAF recruiter about joining as an officer. Recruiter was all over me to join because of my degree, grades, work experience, etc. That is, until I mentioned the aforesaid RK surgery. The moment I said I'd had RK, the USAF Recruiter looked like a little boy whose daddy had just told him there was no Santa Claus after all - because, you see, unlike the Army (who only disqualified me from flying) the USAF wouldn't even allow someone who'd had RK to join. Period.

* To those who bitch about GWB's application of foreign policy, body counts in the Sandbox, etc., I would join up and fight in Iraq right now, if I qualified for service (see above for why I cannot) for no other reason than the death of little Farah (see Michael Yon's Weblog about her recent death in Mosul as the result of suicide bombers driving a VBIED into a group of soldiers only after they were surrounded by 20 or so kids).

Also I grow tired of people playing armchair quarterback who suggest that this or that decision regarding Iraq would have been better than the one at present. Sure, GWB f*cked up with the boast of "Bring it On!" and his early declaration that the "war" was over, but there's one crucial point that everyone seems to miss: if you don't like his Iraq policy, and you want to get people in Iraq to tell you their own opinions of it (and no, not imports from other countries who are now hanging out there, or reporters for Al-jazeera, or the like), just talk to any woman whose thumb is stained purple from having cast her own vote a few months ago. As that woman if her life is better now than it was when Saddam ruled. Then go to Afghanistan and ask women there whose rights were stripped under Taliban rule, who had to wear burkhas everywhere, if their lives are better now.

Oh, and one more thing: so many people forget that the US Military was committed to more action under Clinton, in the name of "humanitarian" missions, than any other president - all while that president was cutting their funding to the bone. From a readiness standpoint, Clinton eviscerated the military almost as badly as Carter, while committing men to action in places that had no strategic importance to the United States.

Don't worry, though: you'll get your chance to put your money where your mouth is in about three years, when Hillary becomes president in 2008. Personally, I hope this happens, and I hope that all the seeds of war that were planted by hubby in North Korea (by appeasing Kim Jong Il in 1994) come to fruition. Saddam, and even Rafsanjani (sp?) are tame compared to Kim.

So you think I'm crazy? Perhaps so. Just keep that in mind when Iran gets its own Bomb, and Kim sells them to anyone who has enough cash to buy him more French wine and Mercedes Benz S-Class cars...

Hmmmm.These "memos... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

These "memos" might be FAKE! ROFLMAO!

Memos Show British Concern Over Iraq Plans

"Smith told AP he protected the identity of the source he had obtained the documents from by typing copies of them on plain paper and destroying the originals.

The AP obtained copies of six of the memos (the other two have circulated widely). A senior British official who reviewed the copies said their content appeared authentic. He spoke on condition of anonymity because of the secret nature of the material."

Hello Lucy Ramirez! Remember her? Burkett claimed he got the RatherGate memos from her, copied them and then burned the originals.

May I laugh at you liberals again? I think so!

ROFLAMO!

Hmmmm.And it gets ... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

And it gets BETTER!

The Raw Story

"The documents are transcribed photocopies in PDF format and were acquired from a British source and corroborated by Michael Smith, the journalist who first received the original leaked memos. This site validated them through an independent source and with Smith."

But wait! There's more!

"“I first photocopied them to ensure they were on our paper and returned the originals, which were on government paper and therefore government property, to the source,” he added."

And ...

"“It was these photocopies that I worked on, destroying them shortly before we went to press on Sept 17, 2004,” he added. “Before we destroyed them the legal desk secretary typed the text up on an old fashioned typewriter.”"

And then we've got...

"The Butler Committee, a UK commission looking into WMD, has quoted the documents and accepted their authenticity, along with British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw. Smith said all originals were destroyed in order to both protect the source and the journalist alike."

But why would they? Because they came from a, thought to be, unimpeachable source. A newspaper. How many people accepted the RatherGate memos as truth because they were reported in the news. Were they actually authenticated? Or did the UK government accept them because they didn't have information to the contrary and couldn't refute them?

Oh this is going to get a lot better. Watch the meltdown coming.


This part is explained by the second part. The "photocopies" aren't of the originals, they're of the COPIES made by Smith's secretary on an "old fashioned

Gee, I wonder why Bush and ... (Below threshold)
Danya:

Gee, I wonder why Bush and Blair haven't bothered to deny the authenticity of these memos if they're fake. Seems like they'd at least try to defend themselves if they were being attacked with forgeries. Until either one of them claims they're fake and so long as officials in the British government continue to acknowledge the information is indeed accurate I have to assume that these claims of fakery are simply conspiracy theories hatched by right wing flakes.

Please don't try using Afgh... (Below threshold)
Danya:

Please don't try using Afghanistan or Kosovo as an excuse for the illegal invasion of Iraq. The majority of critics on Iraq supported the war in Afghanistan. Indeed the entire world joined with us and participated. Hardly anyone questions the justification, legality, or even the results of that war except maybe to say we never should have been distracted from our mission to find Bin Laden first of all. Secondly all the money and energy and blood we have wasted in the reconstruction and occupation of Iraq would have gone farther and done a lot more good had we cared one bit about the Afghan people. The Taliban was/is even worse than Saddam and no one is crying over their being driven from power. On the contrary, it's becoming increasingly clear that the Taliban has regained too much of their lost ground and are making steady progress in their attempts to regain power. This is bad news for the US and the war on terror and another failure created by our unnecessary invasion of Iraq.

Kosovo is so far off the map in this debate it's hardly worth mentioning but I must admit my take on it at the time. Like many of today's Bush supporters I simply took my President's word for it when he said it was necessary to use military force in order to stop the genocide that was going on. I never bothered to fact check or think critically of that mission. I neither cared about nor understood foreign policy at the time which is something that changed immediately after 9/11.

Recently I watched Hotel Rwanda and followed up by studying how we handled it since I was too self involved at the time to remember. I became very angry and disgusted with Clinton's failures and disregard for what he knew was going on at the time. Whatever criticism you would like to heap on his foreign policy is likely well deserved and I won't defend it except to say what Bush has done in Iraq eclipses anything done by any other US administration in my lifetime. He deserves, at minimum, to spend the rest of his life in jail. I say this not as a Democrat or a liberal but as a human being who expects justice and truth to prevail in the face of such naked, criminal aggression. This goes way beyond party politics whether any of you want to believe that or if any of you can even fathom such a thing in the first place.

BTW, speaking of slashing the military you can place even more blame on Rumsfeld. His ongoing transformation is about slashing everything in sight in order to create a smaller, leaner force that depends more on advanced weapons and machinery. He's shutting down bases left and right. Now the war in Iraq has made it impossible to build up the troop strength he still won't admit he needs. Since the Iraq war was one of choice he had a chance to build up troop strength before invading if he'd thought ahead or considered it might be necessary. He didn't. If you claim Clinton 'eviscerated' the military you'll have to also admit that Rumsfeld has nearly broken it completley.

Hmmmm."I won't def... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

"I won't defend it except to say what Bush has done in Iraq eclipses anything done by any other US administration in my lifetime."

You mean stopping Uday Hussein from randomly raping young schoolgirls and then branding them on the forehead? You mean stopping Uday from raiding wedding parties, raping the brides and then leaving the women to be murdered in "honor killings"?

How you equate the genocide in Rwanda with the PREVENTION of genocide in Iraq is an illogic only capable by a "Democrat or a liberal".

Thanks Danya well said.... (Below threshold)
Raye:

Thanks Danya well said.

John Kerry is now collecting signatures on a letter to the Senate regarding the Downing Street Minutes.

No, this issue is not going to fade.

So ed, you really think:<br... (Below threshold)
Raye:

So ed, you really think:
"stopping Uday Hussein from randomly raping young schoolgirls and then branding them on the forehead? You mean stopping Uday from raiding wedding parties, raping the brides and then leaving the women to be murdered in "honor killings"?"

You believe that? . . . honest?
Could you be any more naive?

ed,You think that ... (Below threshold)
Raye:

ed,

You think that was Bush's motive?

So instead of Uday raping b... (Below threshold)
Danya:

So instead of Uday raping brides to-be the entire place is littered with headless bodies and car bombs are an every day part of life. All thanks to the fact that Bush took it upon himself to liberate everyone using shock & awe and a hostile foreign occupation. Plus he reserved the right to continue Saddam's policies of terrorizing citizens except using a different strategy: kicking in their doors in the middle of the night and humiliating or hauling them away to Abu Ghraib where the old policies of torturing prisoners gleefully continued. I'm sure the liberated masses were saying, 'meet the new boss, same as the old boss'. You must be so proud.

Even if the war had been sold as a humanitarian effort (which of course it wasn't) the way it was carried out was a failure of epic proportions. You're supposed to be the party of personal responsibility so why don't you take some? Why havn't conservatives come out and demanded Rumsfeld's head on a platter by now rather than sit back and silently condone his same old failed policies? Oh, wait...he never had a policy to begin with. Maybe you don't see any point in forcing him to come up with one now when there's virtually no chance of reversing this mess he's made.

Either do something about the incompetence in your own party or quit whining over the fact that others will eventually step in and do it for you.

Wow, I can't believe this i... (Below threshold)
toby928:

Wow, I can't believe this is still going. The unkillable thread. I'm just checking in using my hermit-like liberal friends dial up access (man do I miss broadband when I don't have it). THis has been a nasty thread for whizbang (which has heretofore been a mild mannered site) and I was wondering why. I know that I was short since it was like liberal invading "our house" and insulting our children and pets. This isn't DU you know. When you go on to a right-of-center site or a left-of-center site, one should at least act as though you respect the inteligence of the inhabitatents. (is that the right word?) You know if the whole world thought that 2 + 2 = 5 and you realize that 2+2=4 you don't just run out in the street and proclaim it like an Old Testament prophet, you acknowledge common wisdom and say something like, "Hey, look I know this sounds crazy, I wouldn't have believed it myself but ..." and then try to get the person to actually count their fingers. A little respect goes a lot way.

Tob

PS I know I joined in but hey, the bed was already on fire when I lay down on it.

But I can't let this pass:<... (Below threshold)
toby928:

But I can't let this pass:

"Either do something about the incompetence in your own party or quit whining over the fact that others will eventually step in and do it for you."

Danya, the only whining I have heard has been from your side. We accept that things can and will go wrong, an army and even more, a war, is a machine with a billion moving parts, its called friction. The enemy doesn't just side there and let you destroy him, he adapts. We adapt, we accept our losses and push forward. Its not good plans we like, its good goals and despite setbacks, the gonads to carry them through.

Goodnight this dialup is way to slow. I'll check back on the unkillable thread when I can.

Tob

"Only a fool fights in a bu... (Below threshold)
fatman:

"Only a fool fights in a burning house."--Old Klingon proverb.

Sorry. Toby928's remark about the bed being on fire brought that to mind and I couldn't resist.

Danya, say what you want ab... (Below threshold)
Wanderlust:

Danya, say what you want about Rummy.

I worked for a major defense contractor when Rummy killed Crusader (and no, I didn't work for that company). A lot of people bitched when that program was killed, but from a logistics POV, that thing might well have been called "son of German Rail Gun", it was that heavy, and unwieldy.

Cheney killed A-12, V-22, and SR-71 programs on his watch as SECDEF, during Bush '41. V-22 and SR-71 were resuscitated by Clinton. Carter killed B-1 and Reagan brought it back. Priorities change, and programs come and go. The problem these days isn't the programs themselves, but whether those weapons systems are worth spending time and money developing when existing equipment will do the job.

Regardless of how you feel about those decisions, and about Rummy killing Crusader and wanting to "transform" the military, I've noticed a few things of late:

* Rummy has had a lot of OJT regarding Iraq, which caused him to play catchup on his work experience (recall, he holds title as both youngest SECDEF - during Nixon years - and oldest, at present). Like many in leadership positions in the armed forces, he may have placed a bit too much reliance on technology, but you still have to acknowledge that the average US soldier today is better equipped, more lethal, more precise, and better trained than any soldier in any army on the face of the planet. Where the motto, "one shot, one kill" used to be solely in the hands of snipers, now it falls almost as easily to the average grunt.

* Rummy's view of transforming the military is still valid even now, in that for the current armed forces headcount, there is a significant surplus of facilities - installations that are typically old, in constant need of repair, and that owe their sole reason for existence on some municipality's desire to broaden its tax base. That goes doubly so for Cold War installations in Germany, Korea, and Japan. Where Rummy got it right regarding "transformation" is that the War of the Future is not about holding standing armies in fixed trouble spots worldwide. Instead, it's all about managing the logistics of fast deployment. Yet there will always be more unknown bugs in logistics, no matter how many you iron out.

* I haven't heard (or read) a soul on the Red side of the aisle claiming that military recruiting, manpower levels, etc. are a serious problem. That goes for the military branches themselves. Nothing. Nada. The only complaints about manpower in the media seem to come from the Blue side of the aisle, usually as a reason why we can't complete our mission in Iraq and should withdraw now. Ditto with all the griping and scare-mongering about a "draft". GWB has gone on record, along with virtually every Republican whose duties include anything dealing with the military, saying that there will not be a draft. There are many good reasons for this, including the cost of training. But Dems first raised the draft issue, and Dems keep it alive. Perhaps they are waiting for Hillary to institute one in 2008?

* Manpower levels for forces in Iraq are muddled by political as well as military factors. Put too many GI's in theatre, and enemies use their very presence to suggest "oppression", yet have too few, and they can't do their jobs properly.

Finally, the most futile thing of all regarding the current administration's middle east policy is that it can't last, and that will be our own fault. If we elect someone whose bravery stops at the end of their negotiating pen (a la "Johnny Nuance" of Iowahawk fame), or someone who fails to grasp that when people in the middle east chant "Death to America", they aren't just indulging in religious symbolism, possible outcomes are easy to guess...that is, if you are able to get candid responses out of the people doing business with A.Q. Khan.

Honestly I have no problem ... (Below threshold)
Danya:

Honestly I have no problem with what programs come or go, I was simply responding to the often repeated claims about Clinton slashing the military while ignoring the fact that Rumsfeld's been doing some slashing of his own.

Regarding troop strength it's seemed to be an open secret and talked about from the left and the right that there were never enough troops on the ground to begin with. The proof is in the looting that followed our control over Baghdad. Everything was open for looting but the Oil Ministry because there weren't enough forces to protect anything else. Even days later when it was still going on and nothing was being done about it Rumsfeld claimed this was simply how people celebrate freedom...it's messy but not a problem. (IDIOT!, is it any wonder we find ourselves in such a mess today?)

Anyway, this raises another serious question I'd like to ask any of you because I haven't heard it come up anywhere else yet and would like your opinions. If the goal is to finish training and setting up Iraqi's so we can hand over security to them I wonder how we're ever going to know when this goal has been reached? In other words how can we hand over something we don't have? Or does Bush believe Iraq is currently secured? If he doesn't he needs to talk about how this is going to get done in his upcoming PR campaign...if he does think it's secured we need to know how we'll be able to measure this 'success' when it comes time to put the Iraqi forces to the test. Are they up to par as long as they can mainain under ten car bombings a week or will we have to wait till they get it down to seven before we can leave? Do you see the dilema? If this isn't clear now and we aren't all on the same page it's going to end up being another case where people feel they've been lied to or the goal posts have once again not only been moved but changed altogether. What's the right wing take on this?

Toby,"Its not good... (Below threshold)
Raye:

Toby,

"Its not good plans we like, its good goals and despite setbacks, the gonads to carry them through."

This disappoints Toby, please tell me you misspoke . . . I expected better based on your other contributions. Is that how you opperate in your own life or business? How is that working for you?
Now, I'm just a liberal---but I don't take a vacation without a good plan. I might adjust a plan as something comes up--but I block out a good plan to start.
Well, your concept does seem to be in alignment with the methods used by our current leaders . . . but is it really their gonads they're relying on?

Sorry to be singling you ou... (Below threshold)
Raye:

Sorry to be singling you out Toby . . . but now I can't let this pass.

"You know if the whole world thought that 2 + 2 = 5 and you realize that 2+2=4 you don't just run out in the street and proclaim it like an Old Testament prophet, you acknowledge common wisdom and say something like, "Hey, look I know this sounds crazy, I wouldn't have believed it myself but ..." and then try to get the person to actually count their fingers."
Your point is well taken and if this was something innocuous I'd be right there with you.
People are frantic because people are dying---many of them innocent "collateral damage" and our children are coming home in coffins --every day. Others are without limbs or eyes or with their health, minds and beingness shattered. And to what purpose as it becomes more and more evident we are growing enemies because we went after the wrong enemy and without a good plan.

To fix this mess we're going to have to be ruthlessly honest. (You can't get to Chicago from New York when you're sittin' in Atlanta.) It's going to take our best strategy minds---maybe some of our military leaders that retired when they were regarded with contempt and distain and could not get their voices heard, to develop a new and viable plan.
If we stay stuck in "We're were right" we remain trapped in a scenario that causes us to loose stature in the world, causes our enemy to be able to enlist new and impassioned followers at an accelerated rate and forces us to spend the lives of our soldiers and the dollars that normally keep our home front running while we become more financially in debt to other nations. This can very easily become far far worse than Viet Nam if in our arrogance and righteousness we stay this course. President Bush has said more than once that he “doesn’t do nuance” Well, Yikes!
We need wisdom and intellect and minds capable of understanding very different complex societies. Frankly, a grasp of nuance is particularly significant in this arena.

Raye, good thinking as far ... (Below threshold)
toby928:

Raye, good thinking as far as it goes, in my personal and business life I do expect to plan wisely with a reasonable expectation that things will go as I plan. But, I'm not engaged in war, which is not a business or bound by predicatable laws. War is a return to a savage state of nature where the victors make the history. My competitors are not blowing up my stores and warehouses, or capturing and enslaving my employees. There are regulating authorities with real enforcement power that I can turn to. Its a hard thought for people like us to accept. We think that we can protect ourselves and maintain our sense of honor and I don't believe that the history of man gives any hope of that. Wars, especially existential wars, are only honorable in retrospect and only to the victors as the defeated (and most likely dead) don't have any say. When peace is won, (as though there ever is real peace) then we rejoice, then relax, then feel guilty and swear to do better next time, better at avoiding war, better at fighting more nobly etc etc. But the point is, you do this after you've won. If you lose, it doesn't matter. That's the logic of war. I don't like it, I'm one who believes in avoiding war and mitigating it when unavoidable, but that's the way it is. Only the victor can be magnanimous.

Tob

And Raye, as far as your re... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

And Raye, as far as your recommendations at the end of your post. I just disagree. I believe that the GWOT is an existential war, that is, our way of life and very existance is at risk. I could be wrong, but that is what I believe and my opinions flow from that. I believe you feel the opposite. To change my opinion you would have to change my world-view about the nature of the war as I would have to convince you of the dire nature of the threat. There is little value in nimbling at the edges of my views (we could do this better or this activity is counterproductive etc). I'll grant you anything and try anything if it looks like it has a chance to bring us closer to victory but if you don't see this as an existential conflict then we will never agree on the goals, only make temporary truce about some of the tactics.

Tob

Maybe this will encapsulate... (Below threshold)
toby928:

Maybe this will encapsulate my views, I think that the current setbacks, if they are in fact setbacks and not just acceptable losses (what a pregrant phrase) do not invalidate the GWOT, to which Iraq is just a theatre, or its premises and so no amount of categorizing and listing mistakes and losses will alter my view that the war is worthwhile. I would have done Iraq differently, I probably would have either gone slow and light like Afganistan and let the Kurds and Shiia liberate themselves with our aid or simply burned the place to the ground and said "Form a new goverments yourselves and here are our requirements. No aggression again your neighbors and no aid to pirates who are our enemies. Make yourself a democracy or a monarchy or whatever but if your new government bothers us we will dethrone them as well". That would have avoided the problems of occupation which is the real source of the problems. I supported the GWOT when it didn't even have a name and was just a part of the Cold War and so I support it now. I didn't have any high ideals, I knew war is horrible and the losses stark, indeed they are shattering to the families involved. I have never been deluded that war and nobility have anything to do with each other. Efficacy and victory are the only benchmarks. And so, I do listen, desperately, to anyone with a suggestion about how to win but ignore anyone who would use setbacks to discredit our aims.

Tob

Toby, I appreciate your eff... (Below threshold)
Danya:

Toby, I appreciate your effort to explain the thought process behind how we can look at the same thing and see it in such vastly different ways. It helps to see where the paths begin dividing. For instance your feelings that there is no real humanitarian or noble goal at all and that the only goal is to win. This confuses me because the whole purpose of all this killing and dying is lost if you look at it that way. If you view this as a theater in a GWOT than even if you crush Iraq using whatever means necessary and forget the noble or humanitarian goals completely you will have only sacrificed winning the war in exchange for simply winning a battle. You still have nothing to show for it in the end except a bunch of dead bodies and an even bigger problem than you started out with in your GWOT.

If you really see it that way why don't you advocate nuking Iraq completely since it's the only way you're going to win the kind of victory you seem to be expecting in Iraq. You aren't going to be able to get it under control any other way at this point, and if you don't care about the stated goals of democracy or the noble behavior of our military actions it's the only logical solution.

Another thing I find confusing is the attitude that having a plan doesn't do much good because this is war, things go wrong, and things are ugly. Strategically that seems to be a sure way to lose before you've even begun. By knowing your enemy and learning from the examples of previous winners and losers of global wars throughout history there are plenty of things you can predict and be prepared for...as a matter of fact so much of what is happening now had already been predicted by none other than Bush's own father back in 1991. This is why he chose not to topple Saddam back then, the gain would not have outweighed the costs.

Wars are not simply won by having better toys and soldiers...you have to be able to outwit your opponent. And if you're not likely to get back more than you put in to a war it's simply not worth fighting to begin with and you have to figure out another way to get whatever it is you were after to begin with. I'd like to hear how you might disagree with those two statements which I see as nothing more than common sense. If we aren't fighting this war using common sense I'm afraid we're already doomed.

So Toby“Maybe this w... (Below threshold)
Raye:

So Toby
“Maybe this will encapsulate my views”
Now you are just not being clear---tell me what you think the goal is.
If, as you suggest, this is a war for our existence (I don’t think it has come to that as yet but stomping around in the middle east in a country that did not house the ones who attacked us while saying “bring it on” is a good way to get there) then it becomes even more important to not isolate ourselves without allies and to not choose actions that grow our enemies.
You would use chess as an analogy for war-yes? A good player projects moves and their effects 7-8 moves out --right? You don't play that game with a goal and no strategy. What do we send people to West Point for?
You're toying with this---yes? Or you said something nonsensical and instead of owning it and correcting it---you're justifying and defending. Exactly my point about adhering to our closely held and cherished beliefs. Another rather be dead than wrong guy etc. etc.---You really are arguing the merits of action without planning? Aggression without preparation and logic?
"Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall."--Proverbs 16:18.”

Toby,I've reread you... (Below threshold)
Raye:

Toby,
I've reread your material---again. I see where I got diverted early and missed the import of some things later.

"I would have done Iraq differently, I probably would have either gone slow and light like Afganistan and let the Kurds and Shiia liberate themselves with our aid or simply burned the place to the ground and said "Form a new governments yourselves and here are our requirements."

Why did this logic go out the window with our invasion? Sounds like you do respect planning as a concept after all.
I was so caught in your first words and being right myself---I was missing it.

Is there a reason why we can't rethink because we've already taken action? Do we have to 'stand by our man' even to our own destruction. Would you do that with your stock protfolio and an agent offering advice that lost your money?

Once again we need to be ruthless with our honesty and creative with our strategy. Ego has no place here--particularly if as you believe we are in a battle for our existence. We need to know our enemy and use his own mass to unbalance him.

Danya said this well " . . .Wars are not simply won by having better toys and soldiers...you have to be able to outwit your opponent. . . . If we aren't fighting this war using common sense I'm afraid we're already doomed."

If we become that which we despise and loose the honorable goals and ideals upon which the wise founders formed our country ---then we are defeated by our own mass and perhaps deserve to be.


Danya and Raye, I'm not imp... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Danya and Raye, I'm not imparting to you any kind of strategic vision or styling myself as a Napolean or Clauswitz. This medium is too slow and confined to tell you what I think (even if you were to grant that my thoughts have any merit). I'm imbibing of someone else's bandwidth to give you guys a peek at the way others analyze the situation. I don't have THE ANSWERS, I don't have access to enough facts to feel confident of that, just opinions drawn from a lifetime of observing the human condition.

I do think that this is an existential war, that our way of life is at stake, not because I think that we will be conquered and forceable convert to radical Islam but because, if we ease up on the pressure (and it can be somewhat scattergun and inefficient and still be effective) and there is an 9/11 or worse, a small nuclear detonation, large 'dirty bomb' or biological attack in a major population center, well then, neither you or I would want to live in the kind of police state we will because, with the support of the majority of our fellow citizens. Nation id's and registration, internal pass laws, random stop and search, cordons, no-go zones etc. At the very least, these will be implimented and I'd be hard pressed to complain. I'd be working hard just to head off the imposition of martial law and the suspension of the constitution along with the expulsion or detainment of imigrants from suspect countries.

Terrorism is, in the age of nuclear, chemical and bio weapons is so lethal, combined with religious fanaticism so seductive to so many, a threat that it has to be stopped now. As effective as stateless groups can be at attracting fanatics, only with the aid of nation states (overtly as the Taliban or covertly, as Syria and Iran do) can they achieve worldwide reach. While police type investigation and prosecution is a part of the GWOT, its the fear of insane destruction that will deter nation states. After all, the only thing that all martyrs have in common is, they're dead. That's the aim.

Tob

Maybe we could just abolish international travel and trade, seal (and I mean really seal like the old eastern bloc) the borders and hunker down til better times. (if they ever come).

I wish we could get drunk together and talk. This whole exchange would have taken 15 minutes rather than 4 days, but one of us would have probably ended up with a shiner, probably me ;-)

Back to the point of this s... (Below threshold)
Raye:

Back to the point of this string.

If George W. Bush had a private or secret agenda for war with Iraq and lied to Congress and the people of the US to fulfill that agenda, if he used our pain and fear and grief to manipulate the Congress and the people for reasons other than our protection from an immediate and genuine threat and he did it knowingly and cynically--it is a high crime. We should not wink back at him or flip him the finger, as he would have been doing to us for the last 4 years. (Have you seen that clip?) If Bush lied in this despicable way then he should be impeached and tried for war crimes along with everyone else who is shown to be in on it. If that is the case we need to have the courage to address it, fix it, make what reparations possible, deal with our embarrassment and humiliation and learn from the horrible experience. We would, in that case, need to review our actions and strategies in the Middle East from that understanding and plan anew. If that’s not the case then the question can be resolved and not taint his presidency.

"I wish we could get drunk ... (Below threshold)
Raye:

"I wish we could get drunk together and talk. This whole exchange would have taken 15 minutes rather than 4 days, but one of us would have probably ended up with a shiner, probably me ;-)"

We are not so far out of agreement as it originally seemed----:) A cold Guinness does sound good.

Have you read 'Worse than Watergate The Secret Presidency of George W. Bush' by John Dean?
He suggests similar results to another major & perhaps worse terrorist attack, martial law etc. and also the suspension of elections--- as ed would say hmmmmmm

**Terrorism is, in the age ... (Below threshold)
Danya:

**Terrorism is, in the age of nuclear, chemical and bio weapons is so lethal, combined with religious fanaticism so seductive to so many, a threat that it has to be stopped now.**

I agree it's a big threat. I disagree that pre-emptive wars are a good option. Especially when religious fanatics) not only do not fear military engagements but they actually welcome them as a way to help radicalize their society and bring in members who would otherwise have had nothing to do with them. You give people a common enemy and they'll usually band together until that enemy has been vanquished, it's just human nature. BTW, there are Christian and Muslim fanatics alike who would truly love nothing more than to see a holy war/crusade come out of 9/11. These screwballs have to be weakened (they'll never be gone completely) both inside our country as well as outside. Usually these extremists are the ones that are instigating military force because they think it's finally going to bring about Armageddon (as if that's a good thing).

I have more to add about what's been mentioned above but I'll do it a bit later. ;)

Danya: A serious, ... (Below threshold)
fatman:

Danya:

A serious, non-snarky question if I may. If you agree that terrorism is a big threat, but oppose pre-emptive wars against states (such as Iraq) that harbor, train and provide material and financial support to terrorists, just what DO you propose doing about them?

Toby,“I do think tha... (Below threshold)
Raye:

Toby,
“I do think that this is an existential war, that our way of life is at stake, not because I think that we will be conquered and forceable convert to radical Islam but because, if we ease up on the pressure (and it can be somewhat scattergun and inefficient and still be effective) and there is an 9/11 or worse, a small nuclear detonation, large 'dirty bomb' or biological attack in a major population center, well then, neither you or I would want to live in the kind of police state we will because, with the support of the majority of our fellow citizens. Nation id's and registration, internal pass laws, random stop and search, cordons, no-go zones etc. At the very least, these will be implimented and I'd be hard pressed to complain. I'd be working hard just to head off the imposition of martial law and the suspension of the constitution along with the expulsion or detainment of imigrants from suspect countries.”

Toby, there’s the heart of it.
We don’t disagree that there is tremendous danger present. We aren’t far apart on what the danger is . . . being turned into a state of rigid control and repression and living in fear, in fact a police state and doing it to ourselves.
Where we may be in opposition is the true source of the danger.
I look at all the material efforts that were made to warn that something was up on the run up to 9/11. These guys were frantic trying to get through to this President and his people that there was imminent danger. Their efforts were rebuffed and then they were looked at later as the source of the failure. Then the attack was utilized to acquire power.
Like you I think we can manage the threat from without.

The issues in the last three elections with voting ‘irregularities’ the machines with no verification. The losses of balance in our power structure. The new levels of secrecy. The laws favoring corporations at the expense of the middle and lower income classes. Our jobs being sent overseas. The so called tort reform that makes it impossible to sue for harm and injustice. The use of religious beliefs to manipulate and encroach on freedoms.
I believe that the real danger is in corrupt leadership here.

You are little scared child... (Below threshold)

You are little scared children.


Become MEN and watch
the charges going off


LOOSE CHANGE
9 minutes into part 2


http://question911.com/links.php


Democrats are loosers, but
your own Office of Naval Intelligence has killed 3000 New Yorkers...
good night.

Raye and Danye, I'm glad t... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Raye and Danye, I'm glad that thread that erupted in such chaos has settled down to an approximation of a reasonable discussion here at the end (and it is the end for me, this thread is getting as long as a Kos diary or an LGF comment thread).

I understand where you guys are coming from, I just don't agree. I don't believe in any of the things that Raye laid out in his last post. I'm afraid that "progressives" have fallen in the same type of "black helicopter" hysteria that afflicted some parts of the right during the Clinton administration. I don't thingk that there is any systematic corruption in this adminstration (I say systematic to cover myself since any large organization is going to have crooks, but truthfully I don't see any signs of corruption.) I think that Bush is just what you see, neither moron nor hitler-like supergenus, and his administration is just people charged with doing something and doing the best that they can. You can agree or disagree with their ideas but its just ridiculus to speak about them as though they where the illuminati. Moreover, I was born while Ike was president and I don't think any of our administrations were "corrupt" as I think of the word. Some have been incompetent (Ford, Carter, and in some ways Kennedy) some have been neutral (Bush 41 and Clinton) and some I have liked (Reagan and Bush 43). Nixon and LBJ come closest to corrupt administrations but nothing like Harding or Grant or some others that openly sold favors.

I was born into a country that had jim crow laws and no pollution controls, segregated schools and riots in the streets, shoe-less type poverty in the rural areas and uncheck police brutality in the urban ones. I observe that everything is getting better every day,not just in this country but around the world When peoples' idea of civil rights problems is that South Carolina is flying the confederate battle flag on the statehouse grounds and not the wholesale lynching of blacks then I think that we have no civil rights problems at all and Dr Kings dream has been realized.

All this improvement is threatened by the Islamfascists. I'm baffled that we as a country are not mobilized more to face this threat. I've written and talked to Bush and my representatives making this point but to no avail. Its hard not to write like a DU poster screaming "WAKE UP PEOPLE", so seriously do I view the threat. I long for the cold war when we had a ruthless but rational enemy who could be detered by just the threat of MAD. MAD is what the Islamist want, in their twisted belief that Allah will save the faithful or if he doesn't, they will be rewarded in heaven. That belief is more threatening than the faith of any commisar that the victory of the proletariet is a historical imperative.

To sum up, if you guys have any good ideas on how to win the war, speak up, don't just tell us that we're wrong. Contribute, concretely. Write your representatives with your ideas, write the pentagon, call their idea hotline, Don't tell people our foreign policy went wrong in 1954 at Suez. (I mean, I think that if that hapless Carter had supported the Shah we wouldn't be here now but so what? Nothing I can do about that) Move forward. Bush will be our president until January 2009, to spend any effort denying that is just tin-foil hattery. Accept that war is a dirty business that stains everyone involved but that as McArthur said, "There is no substitute for victory". Eliminate the external threat so that we can go back to building our better world here. To paraphrase a much misunderstood comment from the administration: Get out of the reality-based world and into the reality-creating world.

Tob

PS I hope that y'all saw Condi Rice laying the "Democracy Now" smackdown on our allies in the ME yesterday.
PPS I'll see you guys on other threads and will read any responses when I get back home but this is my last post for this thread. Email me if you wish but know that I only check that email address once in blue moon. Its been fun.
PPS Wiz, thanks for this forumn and the bandwidth. You guys are a national treasure.

Toby,Are you sayin... (Below threshold)
Raye:

Toby,

Are you saying that you don't thnk Bush lied? What if you're wrong? Or are you saying, so he lied, so what? What if Bush did lie to our Nation and Congress? Is your fear of 'Islam' so overriding that you would give him a pass? Yeah, wink wink we know that you lied to us. . . no problem.


Porter,
What is your point?

I'm back from my friends' u... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

I'm back from my friends' unibomber-style shack.

Raye, is that URL your site? That is, are you CR? Maybe I should make the effort to convince you to move to our view of the GWOT since you have such a following. It would probably hurt your career though. If you do want to exchange emails occasionaly (I'm not a groupy) then send one with return email address to [email protected] and I will answer from my real email account.

and in answer to your question, if by lying you mean: While in complete possession of the truth, to allow, by action or inaction, others to believe untruth, for personal gain (that rules out white lies to protect peoples feelings etc) then no, I do not think that Bush lied. The consensus at the time was that, by his actions and statements, Saddam deliberately fostered the impression that he possessed NBC type weapons. So thought the inteligence agencies of all the western powers, so thought our last 2 administrations, so thought the congressional oversight committees which viewed the unredacted and raw intelligence data, and frankly so thought I. Remember our troops advancing into Iraq in summer heat wearing full MOP gear? The question was always, how much, how advanced, and how likely to be used. Even Saddam's generals thought they would use NBC. They all thought some other unit had them and frankly, they were scared of being near a NBC attack.

Tob

PS, I'm not afraid of Islam, only Islamists. I've got confidence in JC. I'm just worried about people who still want revenge for being kicked out of Andalusia in the 1490's.

Last post, I mean it. ;-)




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