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Rove=Bin Laden

In the wake of the "Rove Leaked Plame" non-story many have been wondering which dictator/tyrant he will be compared to by the left. After all, many on the left already blame Rove for everything from stopped-up drains to failed marriages (some even for their early demise), its only fitting that they pick and extra-special bad guy to compare Rove to.

Will it be Hitler? Stalin? Pol Pot?

Nope, looks like they're going with Osama bin Laden:

KARL ROVE: WORSE THAN OSAMA BIN LADEN NEW YORK--In war collaborators are more dangerous than enemy forces, for they betray with intimate knowledge in painful detail and demoralize by their cynical example. This explains why, at the end of occupations, the newly liberated exact vengeance upon their treasonous countrymen even they allow foreign troops to conduct an orderly withdrawal.

If, as state-controlled media insists, there is such a creature as a Global War on Terrorism, our enemies are underground Islamist organizations allied with or ideologically similar to those that attacked us on 9/11. But who are the collaborators?

The right points to critics like Michael Moore, yours truly, and Ward Churchill, the Colorado professor who points out the gaping chasm between America's high-falooting rhetoric and its historical record. But these bête noires are guilty only of the all-American actions of criticism and dissent, not to mention speaking uncomfortable truths to liars and deniers. As far as we know, no one on what passes for the "left" (which would be the center-right anywhere else) has betrayed the United States in the GWOT. No anti-Bush progressive has made common cause with Al Qaeda, Hamas, the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan or any other officially designated "terrorist" group. No American liberal has handed over classified information or worked to undermine the CIA.

But it now appears that Karl Rove, GOP golden boy, has done exactly that.

Amazing, isn't it?

There is absolutely no evidence available to us now that can prove that Rove leaked Plame's name to the press. There is evidence to suggest that he could have done it, but none proving that he did.

Of course, people like Ted Rall aren't going to let silly little things like "facts" and "burden of proof" get in the way of a good rant.

Rob Port is the owner and operator of Say Anything.


Comments (73)

"No American liberal has ha... (Below threshold)
Gizmo:

"No American liberal has handed over classified information or worked to undermine the CIA."

If I'm not mistaken, in the 70's there were liberal groups that took great joy in outing CIA operatives, no?

"No anti-Bush progressive h... (Below threshold)
Tom:

"No anti-Bush progressive has made common cause with Al Qaeda, Hamas, the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan or any other officially designated "terrorist" group."

WTF! What about the New York Times, Newsweek and all the rest of the LSM?

If only the word "Rall" had... (Below threshold)

If only the word "Rall" had appeared in the early part of the story, I could have saved a click or two.

"No anti-Bush progressive h... (Below threshold)

"No anti-Bush progressive has made common cause with Al Qaeda, Hamas, the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan or any other officially designated "terrorist" group."

READ: http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/050623/23euroleft.htm?track=rss

"Turns out that far-left groups in western Europe are carrying on a campaign dubbed Ten Euros for the Resistance, offering aid and comfort to the car bombers, kidnappers, and snipers trying to destabilize the fledgling Iraq government. In the words of one Italian website, Iraq Libero (Free Iraq), the funds are meant for those fighting the occupanti imperialisti.

The groups are an odd collection, made up largely of Marxists and Maoists, sprinkled with an array of Arab emigres and aging, old-school fascists, according to Lorenzo Vidino, an analyst on European terrorism based at The Investigative Project in Washington, D.C. "It's the old anticapitalist, anti-U.S., anti-Israel crowd," says Vidino, who has been to their gatherings, where he saw activists from Austria, Denmark, Germany, and Italy. "The glue that binds them together is anti-Americanism." The groups are working on an October conference to further support "the Iraqi Resistance." A key goal is to expand backing for the insurgents from the fringe left to the broader antiwar and antiglobalization movements."

I bet 10 Euros that this is also happening in the US.

People can call him Hitler ... (Below threshold)
Mynamehere:

People can call him Hitler or Osama or even Jesus but that doesn't change this fact: the admission that he he talked to reporters regarding Plame means he has committed perjury. Lying to a federal grand jury is a felony. Let's put it in Madison Avenue terms:

Comparing someone you don't like to someone everyone really hates: cheap (and stupid)

Lying to a federal grand jury and later admitting to that fact: fine and up to 5 years in prison (last time I checked Title 18 section 1623)

And remember, this just sets the baseline charge of perjury. Outting government secret agents is not just a felony it is treason. Is he guilty of that? I certainly hope not. That would be a black eye for the entire country. And we all know how severe the penalty for that can be.

I found this wonderful work... (Below threshold)
bullwinkle:

I found this wonderful work of journalist excellence right after reading Ann Coulter's commentary reminding us about the NEA funding "art" works like crucifixes in jars of urine and the two combined gave me an idea. All we need is a jar large enough to hold Ted Rall, Michael Moore and Ward Churchill. I can take it from there and I won't need any taxpayer funding to complete the greatest work of art ever. It would be called "When they refer to themselves as progressives they make me laugh".

Lawrence O'Donnell wrote in... (Below threshold)
breadman:

Lawrence O'Donnell wrote in a liberal blog.

"Karl Rove's lawyer, Robert Luskin, had his holiday weekend ruined on Friday when I broke the story that the e-mails that Time delivered to the special prosecutor that afternoon reveal that Karl Rove is the source Matt Cooper has been protecting for two years. The next day, Luskin was forced to open the first hole in the Rove two-year wall of silence about the case. In a huge admission to Newsweek and the Los Angeles Times, Luskin confessed that, well, yes, Rove did talk to Cooper. It is a huge admission in a case where Rove and Luskin have never, before Friday, felt compelled to say a word about Rove's contact with Cooper or anyone else involved in the case.

Luskin then launched what sounds like an I-did-not-inhale defense. He told Newsweek that his client "never knowingly disclosed classified information." Knowingly. That is the most important word Luskin said in what has now become his public version of the Rove defense.

Not coincidentally, the word 'knowing' is the most important word in the controlling statute ( U.S. Code: Title 50: Section 421). To violate the law, Rove had to tell Cooper about a covert agent "knowing that the information disclosed so identifies such covert agent and that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such covert agent's intelligence relationship to the United States."

So, Rove's defense now hangs on one word—he "never knowingly disclosed classified information." Does that mean Rove simply didn't know Valerie Plame was a covert agent? Or does it just mean that Rove did not know that the CIA was "taking affirmative measures" to hide her identity?

In Luskin's next damage control session with the press, let's see if any reporter can get him to drop the word 'knowingly' from the never-disclosed-classified-information bit."

Yes it is true, it doesn't seem to have been "proven" that Rove broke the law. They should wait for all the facts before they jump the gun. However, it doesn't look good. Time (and the reporter) fought for 2 years to release that info. - and Rove was the name on it. Why didn't Rove just say at the beginning he spoke to the reporter the week of the outing?

The NYT has been anti-ameri... (Below threshold)
Rod Stanton:

The NYT has been anti-american for 80 years. They lead the way for the MSM in America hating. They got a Pulitzer 70 years ago for an America bashing story that left out the truth the writer knew favorable to America but instead reported lies about what a nice guy Uncle Joe was. They still hate America at the NYT. Of course they will try to smear a person that believes in America.

If only there were the Razz... (Below threshold)

If only there were the Razzies equivalent for the Pulitzers.

Re: breadmanYes Ro... (Below threshold)
Fran:

Re: breadman

Yes Rove's lawyer admitted that he talked to Matt Cooper and may have been an inadvertent source regarding the Plame exposure.

So what??? That is not the problem.

If I remember correctly Bush wanted to get to the bottom of who leaked the info. I don't think it matters now if Rove's attorney wants to claim that he didn't knowingly disclose her name.

Did he tell Bush that he was a source of the leak? If he didn't I think that means that he lied to his President. If he did doesn't that mean that both Rove and Bush covered up information that was pertinent to an FBI/Justice Dept investigation?

I think Bush's brain has sprung a leak.

A bit of History , I find t... (Below threshold)
Atu:

A bit of History , I find that track records are usually good indicators.


Rove fired from Bush Sr's '92 campaign over leak to Novak. Karl Rove was fired from the 1992 re-election campaign of Bush Sr. for allegedly leaking a negative story about Bush loyalist/fundraiser Robert Mosbacher to Novak. Novak's piece described a meeting organized by then-Senator Phil Gramm at which Mosbacher was relieved of his duties as state campaign manager because "the president's re-election effort in Texas has been a bust." Rove was fired after Mosbacher fingered him as Novak's source.

http://www.bustbob.com/view.asp?ID=5

Mynamehere says: People ... (Below threshold)
Krusty Krab:

Mynamehere says: People can call him Hitler or Osama or even Jesus but that doesn't change this fact: the admission that he he talked to reporters regarding Plame means he has committed perjury.

I'll bite. I'm looking through my copy of his secret testimony, and I can't find the place where he said he didn't speak to reporters about Plame. Perhaps you could point that out for me?

Even if he lied to the grand jury about speaking to reporters, it would have to materially affect the case for him to be guilty of perjury in the legalistic sense.

I can't believe you freekin... (Below threshold)
Joe Mama:

I can't believe you freekin losers will stand by a slime like Rove after doing what he did. Just shows the lack of moral values in the Republican Party. You idiots would stick up for Hitler if he was a Republican. To tell you the truth, it is rather sad.

How come nobody cares that ... (Below threshold)
BigTobacco:

How come nobody cares that SOMEBODY inside the Bush Administration betrayed one of our own?

I don't care if it is Karl Rove or not... but you'd think it would be important to find out who did this. It's not a "non-story".

Joe Wilson tried to tell the truth. Someone inside the administration didn't like this. They retaliated against Wilson, not by attacking him, but by attacking his wife. They betrayed our own CIA to punish one of our own officials for doing his job. Then, the administration stonewalls and two reporters might do prison time for respecting a crucial pillar of our freedom of press.

In one fell swoop, somebody inside the Bush Administration covered up crucial evidence about WMDs in Iraq, got revenge on a loyal America by attacking his wife, betrayed the CIA, AND took a bite in our free press. This is just wrong in so many ways.

I can't imagine how "patriots" can abide by such a despicable and petty betrayal of our nation. How could anyone pick loyalty to a particular President over America.

You should be screaming loudest for justice. I might differ with y'all on many, many things. But it takes a really special kind of coward to betray our own just to protect some petty, vindictive, power hungry snot who would use their authority to punish a CIA agent because her husband told the truth.

It's time for justice. And if conservatives continue to shut one eye to the offenses of their own people, the whole movement will go down like the Titanic. People will continue joining the Democratic Party as they have in recent months, and we will be stuck listening to nauseatingly self-righteous lectures from John Kerry and Teddy Kennedy... and they will be right.

Big Tobacco,They d... (Below threshold)
Joe Mama:

Big Tobacco,

They don't give a crap what the White House does as long as they keep their taxes low, bash gays, and make abortions illegal. As long as they do that, they are happy. Well that is of course because of their high sense of morality! Who cares if their leaders lie to go to war, out CIA operatives, and blow the defecit through the roof! Narrow minded fools.

Funny how you don't hear al... (Below threshold)
DemsAreSuckers:

Funny how you don't hear all of you loftier than thou Democrats decrying the libelous Koran story from newsweek, but have your panties all in a wad about someone outing a CIA agent that paid to have her picture in Vanity Fair alongside her husband. Being discreet and paying to have your picture printed in a major magazine does not go hand in hand. However betraying your country and your president for political power is what your hideous party thrives upon.

I'm mainly interested in wh... (Below threshold)
mojo:

I'm mainly interested in why editors actually continue to publish Rall's psychotic babblings. This URL is to news.yahoo.com, but what's the original source? The NYT? WaPo? BoGlo?

Hmmm.1. "I can't b... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

1. "I can't believe you freekin losers will stand by a slime like Rove after doing what he did."

I agree. It's a shooting offense for Rove to talk to a reporter, even though there's no evidence that he did anything wrong, it's still a shooting offense. How dare he talk to reporters!

2. @ BigTobacco

Sorry you're a conservative?

oh but Big Tobacco aye ther... (Below threshold)
cancon:

oh but Big Tobacco aye there's the rub, try reading the Senate Intelligence Committee Report on Iraqi Intelligence and read the part on the Niger uranimum claims, it seems Mr. Wilson did not
tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and was thusly chastised for same

good thing his book came out before that revelation, not that most of the MSM picked up on that salient fact nor had Mr. Wilson do the same news show circuit to do some 'xplaining.....

I reiterate Novak and other Washington columnists claim that the fact Valerie Plame worked for the CIA was the worst kept secret in Washington, which means who was actually leaking this information, hmmm I'd put my money on Mr. and Mrs. Wilson

seeing their photo spread in Vanity Fair in Dec 2004, in order to plug Joe baby's book, confirms that theory to me.......they seem to enjoy the spotlight......

any word they've been subpoened to the grand jury as well?

you'll notice that Mr. Wils... (Below threshold)
cancon:

you'll notice that Mr. Wilson has been relatively quiet since he was exposed as a liar, I guess he's got his buddy O'Donnell to do his screaming for him.........how sweet.....

Why do you conservatives ha... (Below threshold)
Big D:

Why do you conservatives hate the CIA so much. Whether he knew it or not it is just wrong to talk about our special agents to the press and excuse it by saying she's "fair game"
This double standard really makes me sick.
Y'all made such a big freaking deal about Bill Clinton getting a BJ, and now sit there and make excuses for such a dispicable person. Stop listening to that drug addict Rush Libmaugh and get some ideas of your own.

What's wrong with Rove = Hi... (Below threshold)
Leftism = Stupid Comparisons:

What's wrong with Rove = Hitler? Why is Rall getting all "creative" suddenly with his stupid comparisions? Why not just come out and say Rove = Satan?

Joe Wilson tried to tell... (Below threshold)
Cousin Dave:

Joe Wilson tried to tell the truth. Someone inside the administration didn't like this. They retaliated against Wilson, not by attacking him, but by attacking his wife. They betrayed our own CIA to punish one of our own officials for doing his job. Then, the administration stonewalls and two reporters might do prison time for respecting a crucial pillar of our freedom of press.

Jingo Joe Wilson, the two-bit State Department traitor wannabe, wouldn't know the truth if it hit him over the head with a two-by-four. He has fully admitted lying in his sworn testimony to the Senate about his all-expense-paid vacation in Niger. I don't see anyone trying to prosecute him, but then again, in government service you can get fired for anything except doing a piss-poor job. As for his Maxwell Smart wife, I don't believe it is customary for deep-cover secret agents to do photo layouts for magazines.

excuses, excuses, excuses, ... (Below threshold)
Joe Mama:

excuses, excuses, excuses, thats all I hear from you people when one of your morally corrupt heroes get caught. I'm sure if concentration camps with gas chambers were discovered over at gitmo you would find excuses for why they were their and continue to heil Bush! I do love to see you repuglicans squirm though. Now that the truth is coming out, it's a hard pill to swallow. Enjoy...

it's simple really... (Below threshold)
cancon:

it's simple really

if the fact Valerie Plame's employment with the CIA was not in fact a secret in Washington, no crime has been committed and the source becomes irrelevant esp since the legislation dealing with exposing CIA operatives has a very specific mens rea requirement, which I think cannot be met in this case and I recall most of the legal talking heads said at the very outset, that establishing the mens rea or intent portion of this statute was going to be very difficult if not impossible because it was meant to cover a somewhat different situation......

how can you expose a secret if you didn't think it was a secret, regardless of whether this is Rove or Novak or whomever, and if it was the Wilsons themselves, well, what then?

therefore the more interesting part of the story is actually the fact that Plame is the one that suggested her husband go to Niger which was in fact quite true....

now what is even more interesting is Mr. Wilson forgets, in his several weeks of bashing Bush and Rove and demanding an investigation, all coinciding of course with the release of his book, that he himself noted in his own report to the CIA after his trip to Niger that he had seen or heard evidence that in fact would or could confirm the Iraqis had been attempting to purchase yellowcake from Niger and I believe it was interpreted by some in the CIA as a conmfirmation of the claim

he said something along the lines to the Senate Investigative Committee who called him on this "omission" of fact, if I recall correctly, "oops I must have forgotten that" yeah, I'll bet....

add to that all the leaks coming directly from CIA agents, former and current, during this time period, which all seemed to attempt to hurt the Bush administration, well, seems to me same apples, seems the CIA had its agenda and the White House had its agenda and like that's never happened before

I turned my back on the pho... (Below threshold)
BigTobacco:

I turned my back on the phony Republican Machiavellians when they went after John McCain (by trying to suggest he snitched on his brothers to avoid torture at the hands of the VC). I registered Deomcrat for the first time in 2004 when I saw that things were getting worse and worse.

But now I understand why the whole GOP is going down faster than Monica Lewinsky in the Oval Office. You really believe everthing you hear on the radio. And you repeat it like it's true. You will stand up for any injustice if it is done by someone from your team... and when a member of your own party says, "Hey, Wait a minute" (like O'Neil, Clarke, Hagel, McCain, and the list keeps on growing)... you just call them traitors and scream for the guillotine.

I feel really sorry for those of you who really do love America more than your party, but can't see what is happening to our great nation. Can't you see that the GOP has been usurped by a bunch of dishonorable thugs.

Wake up before the Republican Party shrivels into a cruel joke on the American people. It's called enlightened self-interest! We need a stable society, consistent justice, free-thinking individuals, and a strong economy... we can't afford to sit back and cite Limbaugh to each other like he was Chairman Mao.

It is stories like this tha... (Below threshold)
Carl:

It is stories like this that bring out the worst of the Democrats and Republicans. Since 9/11, the best defense has been prevented me from carrying nail clippers on a commercial airline. The Downing Street Memos prove that Iraq was a target way before Bush said it was, and the Kerry camp, although seemingly obtuse to Rep policy, have failed to offer a real alternative.
Everyone seems surprised that these politicians act like children on a daily basis. I am amazed that anyone takes either side. Politicians are thieves and liars. The hours are great and so is the pay. Do what the smart people do, become a global citizen. Figure out how to retire as soon as possible, move your assets abroad, and enjoy the planet by traveling. In 100 years, none of this matters, and you only live once. Why waste any time on these a-holes. Cheers.

If the Plame leak was not a... (Below threshold)
BigTobacco:

If the Plame leak was not a crime, why is a grand jury investigating it? Why did Bush pledge to find the perpetrators?

oh and I'll just mention br... (Below threshold)
cancon:

oh and I'll just mention briefly that the Lord Taylor probe in Britain backed up Tony Blair's assertion on the uraninium claims in any event because the Brits always had "independent evidence" separate from the forged documents thus confirming again that Bush spoke the truth when he said the Brits have evidence that Iran was attempting to buy uranium from Niger....

oh and that's another little area Mr. Wilson got himself in trouble, he claimed to have seen the forged documents before he could have possibly seen them, they didn't get into the hands of the CIA until a few months after he claimed to have seen them, unless----- well never mind----- oh details, pesky little details, oh but it made his story so much more compelling huh......

well frankly Big Tobacco, t... (Below threshold)
cancon:

well frankly Big Tobacco, that is what puzzles me, I formulated much of this theory from the beginning and when the news came out that Mr. Wilson was less than forth right about his story about Niger along with the Lord Taylor report, it confirmed my theory to myself.......

is anyone looking into Mr. and Mrs. Wilson's behaviour???

I have one theory which is sad to say but as we are certainly seeing this term the Republicans do lack balls

I guess launching investigations are a good way to keep an issue on the backburner......it works in Canada most of the time, Gomery being an exception......

regarding the Niger claims I would have stuck to it and not admitted any mistakes, surely Bush and the CIA knew Britain always had independent evidence of the claim, so I never understood Tenet's position on that.......except to perhaps sabotage Bush in a subtle fashion because I'm not quite sure where Tenet's head was for most of that period........

my own feeling is when the other side and the media hates you that much why bother trying to appease them for they will never be happy.......because Bush ended up vindicated in several respects........

where is the investigation of all the leaks that were coming fast and furious from active CIA agents, was classified information making its way into the MSM?

These "former Republicans" ... (Below threshold)
Former Republican (yeah right):

These "former Republicans" are a trip. Let me try one:

I was a Republican until I learned they were in favor of a strong national defense and lower taxes. I was outraged on what Nazis there were and registered for Democrat (for the first time) in 2004. Now I am proud of how morally superor I am. Wake up! The Republicans are evil. Sure, Democratic policies are a confused mess, but you can be dogmatically pure in the face of reality.

Former Republican,... (Below threshold)
Joe Mama:

Former Republican,

Just remember, lower taxes will not help you in the least bit in the next life. I hope it is worth it, I imagine it is pretty darn hot down there. Greed and selfishness are the fastlane to hell.

Joe Mama says: I can't b... (Below threshold)
Krusty Krab:

Joe Mama says: I can't believe you freekin losers will stand by a slime like Rove after doing what he did. Just shows the lack of moral values in the Republican Party. You idiots would stick up for Hitler if he was a Republican. To tell you the truth, it is rather sad.

I can't believe you freekin losers will try somebody in public in the absence of any evidence other than lies and innuendoes. You idiots would crucify Jesus if he were a Republican. To tell you the truth, it's rather sickening.

"Bush spoke the truth when ... (Below threshold)
john:

"Bush spoke the truth when he said the Brits have evidence that Iran was attempting to buy uranium from Niger...."


Iraq, not Iran. Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Joe Mama: Just remember,... (Below threshold)
Krusty Krab:

Joe Mama: Just remember, lower taxes will not help you in the least bit in the next life. I hope it is worth it, I imagine it is pretty darn hot down there. Greed and selfishness are the fastlane to hell.

Just remember, lust for power will not help you in the least bit in the next life. I hope it is worth it, I imagine it is pretty darn hot down there. Avariciousness and selfishness are the fastlane to hell.

" Greed and selfishness are... (Below threshold)
Poster at 02:51 PM:

" Greed and selfishness are the fastlane to hell."

Thanks for proving my point about the "Vision of the Annointed" which so corrupts the Democratic party today.

The fact some Dems are trolling/posing as "former Republicans" (aka the "Moby Liar Tactics") only shows how desperate and dishonest they are.

"You idiots would crucify J... (Below threshold)
John:

"You idiots would crucify Jesus if he were a Republican."

But he wasn't, so your rhetoric is moot.

Me, a former Republican, ne... (Below threshold)
Joe Mama:

Me, a former Republican, never. I have compassion, so I was told I need not apply.

Big Tobacco asks If the ... (Below threshold)
Krusty Krab:

Big Tobacco asks If the Plame leak was not a crime, why is a grand jury investigating it? Why did Bush pledge to find the perpetrators?

Give me something a bit more challenging:

The purpose of a grand jury investigation is to determine whether a crime has been committed. GJ investigations are preferred over others because of the subpoena power and their ability to force people to testify in circumstances where that individual cannot self-incriminate. Bush can pledge to find the persons responsible for the leak and to take appropriate action (this is what he actually promised), even if they aren't guilty of a crime.

Joe Mama: Me, a former R... (Below threshold)
Krusty Krab:

Joe Mama: Me, a former Republican, never. I have compassion, so I was told I need not apply.

You keep using that word "compassion". I don't think it means what you think it means. I think "hatred" would a better choice of words, in your case.

Me: "You idiots would cruci... (Below threshold)
Krusty Krab:

Me: "You idiots would crucify Jesus if he were a Republican."

John But he wasn't, so your rhetoric is moot.

Spell that out for me: Are you admitting you would have crucified him if he were Republican, or are you saying you would have spared him since he wasn't?

Hey JoeMama et al,... (Below threshold)
DavidB:

Hey JoeMama et al,

Hate to spoil your day, but the best time line explanation of the facts so far is this;

Karl Rove and Patrick Fitzgerald, "The joke's on you."
Ok folks, let's see if we can get some things straight about this Valerie Plame - Joseph Wilson - Matthew Cooper - Judith Miller - Karl Rove - U. S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald - Robert Novak - Scooter Libby - Federal District Court Judge Thomas F. Hogan silliness.

1. No federal law was broken in the story written 2 years ago by Novak which stated that Joseph Wilson's green tea sipping adventure in Africa was set up by his wife, CIA employee Valerie Plame. Why not, you ask, or even if you don't ask? While it is indeed against the law to reveal an undercover CIA operative's identity, Valerie Plame was not, at the time of the story, doing any undercover work for the CIA. Furthermore, Robert Novak and his superiors at the Chicago Sun Times, not being complete idiots about such matters, contacted the CIA prior to releasing the story. The CIA did not inform them of any objections to releasing Valerie Plame's name. And lastly, Robert Novak testified before a federal grand jury and turned over his notes last year. That testimony and those notes clearly identified the person or persons who gave him the Valerie Plame - Joseph Wilson - green tea in Niger - all expenses paid vacation link-up. If an undercover operative protection statute were broken, Fitzgerald would have asked for an indictment last year, but he didn't. No harm - no foul.

2. When Wilson began screaming that Karl Rove had leaked his wife's name, thereby endangering her life and the lives of countless other undercover moles in S.M.E.R.S.H., and then had to retract the accusation, a special prosecutor, one Patrick Fitzgerald, U.S. Attorney from Chicago, was assigned to investigate whether any law had been broken and who dunnit.

3. Karl Rove, Scooter Libby, Robert Novak, Matthew Cooper, Judith Miller and a host of other administration officials and reporters were summoned before a federal grand jury in Washington to testify. The political operatives all signed documents releasing the reporters to whom they had talked from any and all confidentiality agreements. Please see No. 1 above - no harm, no foul.

4. Except for one little problem - not just every witness that Fitzgerald called before the grand jury was willing to testify and turn over subpoenaed documents, like notes 'n' such. Two of the players, Mr. Cooper of Time Magazine and Ms. Miller of The New York Times, refused to turn over their notes from interviews with, among others, Karl Rove. So, Judge Hogan, getting more pissed off by the day at this circus of which he was supposedly in charge, began fining Time Magazine and Judith Miller (exactly why it is Time magazine and not Matt Cooper but Judith Miller and not The NYT getting fined, I am unclear about and don't really care) $1000 e pluribus unums per day. This since, I think, this past October. The lack of cooperation by these two members-in-good-standing of the fourth estate caused prosecutor Fitzgerald to recall, sometimes more than once (Rove testified on 3 different occasions) several witnesses trying to nail down exactly who said which to whomever about whatchamacallit.

5. Now, U.S. Attorney Fitzgerald tells Federal Circuit Court Judge Hogan, in effect, "I be all done here except for these two dastardly evil journalistic types, Cooper and Miller, who have, horrors!, defied a legally binding subpoena issued by, ahem, yerself, yer honor." Judge Hogan reacts predictably, and as the law stipulates, calls in Mr. Cooper and Ms. Miller and sez, "Put up or go to jail and I increase the daily fine for contempt-of-court to the max." To the max probably means something around $25,000 per day. Now, at $1000.00 per day, it takes 1000 days to hit 1 million dollars. At $25,000 per day, Time and The NYT would be paying a million dollars each every 40 days. Ouch!

6. So, there is a criminal action in progress, prosecuted by U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald in the U.S. District Court courtroom of Federal Judge Thomas F. Hogan. But it is not against Robert Novak for publishing the Plame name (he checked with the CIA first, remember?), and it's not against Karl Rove (Novak didn't talk to Rove and says it was not Rove who gave him the Plame name) and it's not against the two high ranking administration officials that Novak says gave him the Plame name (Fitzgerald, Hogan and the grand jury, a group of upstanding citizens which must be asking itself, "W.T.F?") have had those names for almost a year and issued no indictment, remember?).

No, the criminal action is against the two reporters who refused the honor the subpoena issued by the federal grand jury and Judge Hogan. The criminal action now is for the refusal to honor a lawful subpoena. The criminal action and the only criminal action which will come out of this whole ridiculous business is against Matthew Cooper, Time Magazine and Judith Miller. And, to put a cherry on top of it all, Judith Miller never even wrote or published one single word about Plame.


7. Why hasn't Karl Rove come forward, in person, to tell his side? He's having too much fun watching morons like Lawrence O'Donnell self-immolate just like Dan Rather did. Why hasn't Robert Novak come forward to name his sources? He says because it is an ongoing criminal investigation. Why hasn't U. S. Attorney Fitzgerald come forward to name the sources and put all of the speculation about The Dark Lord Rove to rest? Because that is not his business and the nattering nabobs of nincumpoopery can just knock themselves out, as far as he is concerned.

The above is as accurate a guess as to the true lies of this whole waste of overheated breath, taxpayer's money, bandwidth and virgin hardwood forests that I am physically and psychologically able to provide at this time.


It can be found at:

http://markinmexico.blogspot.com/2005/07/karl-rove-and-patrick-fitzgerald-jokes.html

But then, I don't expect you to go check it out or understand the logic of the statements, it doesn't fit your lopsided viewpoint.

And who exactly do I hate? ... (Below threshold)
Joe Mama:

And who exactly do I hate? Rove? Bush? I never said I hated anyone. I will admit that I do not have any compassion for Rove or Bush and what's to come. My compassion is directed at those in need of it. The bible teaches us to have compassion, help those in need, and never put money or material things before God. All I have been hearing from hypocrite Republican's is how they are led by the bible, by God. I just have to wonder what God is leading them. It sure is not my God. Unless I have been reading the wrong book that is. So you can try and redeem yourselves by claiming your policies and wars are for the good of the people, and that you have a right to all your possessions, but maybe you should take some time and read the bible, without twisting the scripture to fit your evil ways. Find out what Jesus really wants you to do. And it has nothing to do with gathering wealth, gathering material possessions or trying to conquer others to obtain them. It is about compassion, love, and helping thy neighbor. It's about turning the other cheek, and loving even your enemies, not matter how hard that may be. So no, I do not hate Republicans, I just hate what they do to the poor, the disabled, the needy. I hate their methods.

Hmmm.I must admit ... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

I must admit I enjoy reading posts by the endless stream of "former Republican" and liberals. It's always tremendously amusing.

Please, keep it up.

Oh and Fight the Power, No Blood for Oil, Chimpy McHilterBushHaliburton and all that. I hope that makes you feel right at home.

Hmmm."And, to put ... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

"And, to put a cherry on top of it all, Judith Miller never even wrote or published one single word about Plame."

Actually, from my understanding, this is why the NYT isn't included in the fine. Since Judith Miller didn't write an article the NYT cannot be involved. Instead she has been treated as a regular citizen, not a reporter. If she had written an article, of any length whatsoever, then the NYT would have been included and Judith Miller would have had some corporate cover.

*shrug* I might be wrong, but that's my understanding of it.

DavidB,Your arroga... (Below threshold)
Dan:

DavidB,

Your arrogant know-it-all tone is so typically rightwing that it blows your credibility out of the water. Plame's cover was blown and that is not in dispute. The crime that was her outing is treason, also not in dispute. The act was such an obvious act of political revenge that to pretend that no crime was committed is wishful thinking on your part. The brainwashed rightwing is dangerous to the safety of our country and true patriots must get in their faces and bitch-slap them with authority.

Dan, even though DavidB pos... (Below threshold)
Delphiguy:

Dan, even though DavidB posted before you, he still preemptively handed you your ass.

If I write 'The Sky is Obviously Red, that is not in dispute', does it make it true? The answer is no, and I look a moron to boot. Passion and vitriol doesn't make up for a lack of substance. When the dems learn this, then they might start getting somewhere.

Rall has always been and wi... (Below threshold)
Steven Wiser:

Rall has always been and will always be a total and complete idiot. And a terrible cartoonist. One of these days, a prominent Democrat is going to have a "Sister Souljah" moment by denouncing his worthless ass.

Joe Mama (July 5, 2005 12:4... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

Joe Mama (July 5, 2005 12:40 PM)
...you freekin losers...
...Just shows the lack of moral values in the Republican Party...
...You idiots would stick up for Hitler if he was a Republican...


Joe Mama (July 5, 2005 01:00 PM)
They don't give a crap what the White House does...
...Narrow minded fools.


Joe Mama (July 5, 2005 02:15 PM)
...I'm sure if concentration camps with gas chambers were discovered over at gitmo you would find excuses for why they were their and continue to heil Bush!...
...I do love to see you repuglicans squirm though. Now that the truth is coming out, it's a hard pill to swallow. Enjoy...


Joe Mama (July 5, 2005 02:56 PM)
...I imagine it is pretty darn hot down there. Greed and selfishness are the fastlane to hell.


Hmm. OK, I see you've brought the gentle touch and ad hominems to the fore. You append further with self-proclaimed "compassion" and broad painting with a hose-end sprayer:


Joe Mama (July 5, 2005 03:11 PM)
Me, a former Republican, never. I have compassion, so I was told I need not apply.

Joe Mama (July 5, 2005 03:30 PM)
The entire rant.


OK, am I the only one spotting a walking contradiction? You may need to reread your scriptures to get a better grasp of the concepts of compassion and judgement. And what of us conservatives who do not share your faith? Are we blinded by your God's bible too? I'm sorry... you worship a different God than the evil, "squirm"ing "repuglicans" so I'll assume your text is different. Your attempt at bearing witness needs some work. You might start with toning down the hypocrisy. I'm pretty certain that I'll not be the target of your compassion since yours "is directed at those in need of it", but your presence here with subsequent demonizing of a vast audience displays the absence of the very thing that you bemoan.


PS - I apologize for the diversion but Joe Mama's meme is just too redundant to let go unchallenged. Sticking to the point would certainly be better than reading such sideshow.

Dan, Dan, Dan go back and r... (Below threshold)
DavidB:

Dan, Dan, Dan go back and read it again, carefully this time and the whole thing. Slowly if you are having trouble.

I noticed you didn't address the points as presented but instead attacked the messenger. What I could call typical leftwing wacko arrogance, but why? It's obvious you can't deal with the points as presented.

You see the part where Novak turned over his notes, and testified to the grand jury? You see that it was over a year ago, so why has there not been any indictment?

You do see where Rove and all of the political operatives were called to testify and signed releases for the journalists so they could talk about their conversations? What part of "nothing to hide" do you not understand?

There is no wishful thinking on my part and I am not the author of the piece, see the link provided, but I can read and understand the statements made. You on the other hand seem to have a problem with basic comprehension.

Your a "true patriot?" I doubt it, and bring that bitch-slap anytime you want. So far you've not presented anything close, just useless fluff and even more useless attempts at insults.

Plame's cover was blown ... (Below threshold)

Plame's cover was blown and that is not in dispute.

It's not? Funny, from what I've read it was common knowledge in D.C. that Ambassador Joe Wilson's wife worked for the CIA -- long before the Novak column.

The crime that was her outing is treason, also not in dispute.

It's not? Funny that revealing the widely known fact that Mrs. Joe Wilson worked for the CIA is regarded as "treason" when Taliban John's going to Afghanistan to fight on the side of al Qaeda wasn't, and the Rosenberg's passing of U.S. atomic weapons secrets to the Soviet Union also wasn't.

Dan, I'd tell you to stop making a fool of yourself, but Darth Rove told me you making a fool of yourself is all part of his fiendish plot.

DavidB,Your assessme... (Below threshold)
Felt:

DavidB,
Your assessment has so many inaccuracies - either you are intentionally lying or your're the typical uniformed republican - or both.

You said "Valerie Plame was not, at the time of the story, doing any undercover work for the CIA." This is a lie, she was.

You said "Robert Novak and his superiors at the Chicago Sun Times, not being complete idiots about such matters, contacted the CIA prior to releasing the story. The CIA did not inform them of any objections to releasing Valerie Plame's name. " This is also a lie.

I assume due to you blind following, that you will continue close your mind to the reality that Rove, did finally admit, after the revelation would be publicized, that he indeed was the source of the Time reporter, or at least spoke to them the week of the "outing" of Plame.

Coincidence? Could be. Doesn't this coincidence though warrant some explanation by Rove and Bush? What did he talk to them about? Why won't he tell the American people? If he can tell us he did not "knowingly" divulge, then what did he talk about?

I will admit that I can't stand Bush. I will offer this and my potential lack of objectivity. But it sure does seem like the heat is and should be on. The mere fact that a "senior" Bush administrator "outed" a CIA agent and commited treason to this country should be enough for you so-called moral-loving republicans to demand full disclosure. Again though I think we see how little morality this republican party truly has.

Rove may get off legally through technicalities, however, it will be interesting to see how many moral-bankrupt republicans will follow. Hopefully not many.

AnonymousDrivel ,H... (Below threshold)
Joe Mama:

AnonymousDrivel ,

Hey, whatever helps you sleep at night. If calling me a ranter, or saying I am not on point makes you feel better, so be it. But the fact is evil breeds evil followers. Rove is evil, his motivations in this case were evil, his politics are evil. Bush follows his lead, so put two and two together. And if you want to follow his evil ways, you will need to answer along with them. I still never said I hate anyone. I would say pity is more the word. If someone in my party did and said the things Rove said, I would no longer support him. Just because someone calls themselves a Democrat they do not have my undying loyalty. Their actions are what I base my loyalty on. Seems a lot of people here discount ever negative story that comes out of Washington if it has to do with a Republican. Now that is narrow minded, as I have said in the past. Rove is an immoral creep. He deserves to burn, but I am not the one who will pass that judgement, that is just my opinion.

Joe Mama: So no, I do no... (Below threshold)
Krusty Krab:

Joe Mama: So no, I do not hate Republicans, I just hate what they do to the poor, the disabled, the needy. I hate their methods.

I get it. You "hate the sin, not the sinner".

Sorry, that's just a cheap and cowardly way of saying you hate the sinner.

Compassion and love and helping your neighbor? That's exactly what the DNC hasn't been about for a long time. It's the Moses syndrome all over, including all of its delusional aspects. This includes the delusion that you have to be a Democrat in order to compassionate, or to care for the poor, the needly or the elderly.

My advice: quit drinking the party koolaid and learn to think independently.

Krusy Krab, Well, ... (Below threshold)
Joe Mama:

Krusy Krab,

Well, if that makes you feel better about yourself to say you are compassionate about the poor, needy and disabled, then so be it. But talk is cheap, where is the proof. Well I have to give you some credit, at least you didn't tell me the bible teaches us to be selfish, greedy and materialistic. I have had some tell me I am totally wrong about what the bible teaches, mostly Republicans. I guess they figure wishful thinking will get them into heaven. I am not sure that is how it works though. But I guess this is totally off topic. As far as Rove, I just hope the truth comes out, and I am talking about the real truth, not the Bush Administration's version of the truth. At least it seems average americans are now seeing that most of the information they are receiving from the white house is lies. I mean I know the truth can sometimes hurt, but they can't keep feeding the public lies and half-truths and expect them to keep believing it. Don't they understand, if you constantly have to lie about something to get support for it, there is something wrong to begin with. If what they were doing was right, the truth would work just as well. As far as Rove, saying that Plame was fair game just shows his lack of morality and just how low he is. And for you people to support him is just sad. It is sure a shame this is what our great country has come to.

DavidBI'm afraid i... (Below threshold)
Steven Wiser:

DavidB

I'm afraid it's actually you that doesn't understand the article, or at least parts of it. The article is speculation on what has happened, not what has actually been proven to have happened. Thus the disclaimer at the end of the article saying, "The above is as accurate a guess..."

As an example of your misunderstanding, you say,
You see the part where Novak turned over his notes, and testified to the grand jury? You see that it was over a year ago, so why has there not been any indictment?

The truth of the matter of whether Novak has even testified is:
"No one really knows. Novak's role (or non-role) in the grand jury investigation has baffled legal observers. Since he wrote the column outing Plame, he should have been the first witness on special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald's list. Indeed, it's possible that he was. Since grand jury investigations are secret, it's not clear whether Novak has already testified in front of the grand jury, has refused to testify, or has not been asked to testify at all. Neither he nor Fitzgerald will comment on the case."

from Slate

Please link to one commonly reported article which actually confirms that Novak testified before the grand jury and that he turned over his notes.

Oh, and next time, try not to link to an article of speculation and pretend that it's factual.

It is sure a shame this... (Below threshold)
mesablue:

It is sure a shame this is what our great country has come to.

How I love a short and selective memory. Makes the koolaid taste better.

DavidB,You and the... (Below threshold)
Dan:

DavidB,

You and the rest of the numbnut Bush supporters can play the "look at my source" and semantic games til you're blue in the face. My point is that it's all right-wing smoke. Honest Americans know that Rove/Libby whoever the fvck it was committed a treasonous offense, one that Bush 41 believed was the most heinous of crimes and should be punished to the fullest extent. So you neo-fascist nitwits can spin it til the sun goes down, but it doesn't change fact that you support a criminal enterprise. If Rove and Bush (and the rest of the administration) beat the wrap on this and all of the other crimes that they've commited it'll only strengthen the argument that this country under the Bushies is a dictatorship and they have essentially stolen power and destroyed democracy. I hope you're happy with the decision to support these thugs. History will show that you were among the misinformed masses. And that is a sad commentary on the "Republican" cause. Good luck.

Why do I get the feeling th... (Below threshold)
fatman:

Why do I get the feeling that Dan, after calling some of us "numbnut Bush supporters" and "neo-fascist nitwits" didn't really mean it when he said "Good luck."?

We interrupt this pi... (Below threshold)
Dan:


We interrupt this pissing match for a reasonable exchange:

fatman,

It's nice to hear from a Republican with a sense of humor. Thanks for proving that they actually exist.

...now back to your regularly scheduled angry exchanges.

RE: Joe Mama's post (July 5... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

RE: Joe Mama's post (July 5, 2005 05:07 PM)

JM: Rove is evil, his motivations in this case were evil, his politics are evil. Bush follows his lead, so put two and two together.

Using such math, then discrediting Bush in any subsequent critiques is completely verboten. I'm drawing an inference that you believe Bush to be a confused puppy to Rove's whip, so when Rove snaps Bush barks. Consequently, Bush is now the innocent dupe and Rove is the perpetual "liar" (typical LLL tripe). I guess I should thank you for your calculus seeing as I'm a blinded robot duty bound to salute Sir George. Such a position on Rove insulates the Great One.


JM: And if you want to follow his evil ways, you will need to answer along with them...

Assuming we were to agree on the term "evil", an unlikely proposition but I'll concede for the argument, who am I going to answer to? I already stated that I do not share your faith. Neither do I care one wit about what transpires with Mr. Rove. He does not drive my beliefs or direct my interpretation of the political landscape much as the Democratic party would like everyone to believe. Yeah, he's a political advisor/guide/friend/hack/puppy trainer/pejorative du jour of Mr. Bush. Name a politician of any substance who doesn't have a team of them.

So what? As it stands now, these are still unsubstantiated claims from a discredited media/political hack of another stripe seeking to resurrect his waning career and import on the American political stage. His is just an unwelcome encore and this scene more likely an attempt to get some receptive audience to throw some coins. Maybe he'll collect enough to buy his own ticket on the next Self-loathing American - Michael Moore tour.

If Rove broke the law, then prosecute him... legally. Trusting the likes of O'Donnell to provide the "evidence" is foolishness squared. Maybe you should try a better math.

This has really degenerated... (Below threshold)
Fran:

This has really degenerated. I can't believe that the

good people of this country can't compromise....

There I go again...

thinkin like an idiot...

Our constitution was sent to us by g-d.

Thank you...

by the way...could you send the notes regarding the specifics of Intelligent Design?
For some reason we're getting heat regarding specifics...whatever that means.

Dan:Actually, I wa... (Below threshold)
fatman:

Dan:

Actually, I was going for vitriolic sarcasm rather than collegial good humor, but thanks anyway.

And believe it or not, most Republicans (of my aquaintence, anyway) DO have a sense of humor. It's just that being labeled as numbnuts and neo-fascist nitwits (or worse) isn't likely to bring it out. And yes, I know that there are Republicans/conservatives who are just as bad; two wrongs, however, do not make a right.

Agreed, fatman. Your commen... (Below threshold)
Steven Wiser:

Agreed, fatman. Your comment was funny either way. It's tough to get the tone across with no inflection.

And can we please cut out the "fascist" name-calling. That's just another way of Godwining yourself. I don't care what your politics are, this country is a long way from fascism, no matter who's in the White House.

As for the original point t... (Below threshold)
fatman:

As for the original point to this thread:

If Valerie Plame was an undercover operative for the CIA (that seems to be in some dispute) and therefore outing her was and is a federal crime, and if Karl Rove was the person who outed her, and evidence can found to support that charge, then Karl Rove (and I paraphrase here) "deserves to be handcuffed, shackled and frog-marched out the front door of the White House." And if convicted, sent to jail for a long time. But not until then. And certainly not on the (so far) unsupported words of Ted Rall and Lawrence O'Donnell

Edit: In my last comment ^^... (Below threshold)
fatman:

Edit: In my last comment ^^, Insert the phrase "at the time of her outing" between the words "was" and "an" in the first sentence

Steven,There is no... (Below threshold)
Dan:

Steven,

There is no question that fascism is creeping up on us. Please check out this site and take note of all the valid examples that fit the criteria.

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

Dan,I looked over ... (Below threshold)
Steven Wiser:

Dan,

I looked over your website. Why don't you go back and look at it again yourself and pick out the ones of these that are at an all time low in this country. "Rampant Cronyism and Corruption"? I think not (Teapot Dome and Tammany Hall were surely worse). "Corporate Power is Protected" and "Labor Power is Suppressed"? The days of union busting and powerful monopolies were much worse. "Rampant Sexism"? Perhaps it'll come as a shock to you, but there was a time when women couldn't vote in this country.

Since we've made so much progress on all these fronts, you could say we've made great strides away from fascism, and that's even if we're buying the whole premise of the "14 identifying characteristics" to begin with.

As I was saying to fatman earlier in another thread where he was explaining why homosexuality and Nazism were inextricably linked, you and he are just opposite sides of the same coin, destined to see fascism/Nazism/Hitler imagery in whatever you don't like. I'm sorry, but none of the following belong in that gross overgeneralization: American liberals, American conservatives, George Bush, Bill Clinton, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Howard Dean, Tom Delay, or Carson Kressley.

World War II was an incredibly dark era and fascism and man's capacity for cruelty do need to be remembered and guarded against. But, at the same time, seeing it happening again around every corner just demeans the great tragedy it truly was and the people who died as a result of oppression and to save the rest of the world from the same fate.

Steven, you can deny the fa... (Below threshold)
Dan:

Steven, you can deny the fact that we are closer today to fascism as defined by those 14 characteristics then we have ever been all you like, but evidence to the contrary is undeniable and mounting. I guess it depends on where you get your information. Michael Moore is the right's posterboy for extreme liberalism but they never acknowledge the fatcs. Every claim he made in F9/11 has been backed up by MULTIPLE sources. If you need the link please let me knoe.

Hee, that's funny. A littl... (Below threshold)
Knoe It All:

Hee, that's funny. A little knoeledge can be dangerous.

Steven Wizer: If y... (Below threshold)
fatman:

Steven Wizer:

If you're still around, head over to the "Schwarzenegger For President?" thread and check out my reply.

Dan,To my specific... (Below threshold)
Steven Wiser:

Dan,

To my specific examples of times when some of these points have been much worse, you retort with, "you can deny the fact that we are closer today to fascism as defined by those 14 characteristics then we have ever been all you like, but evidence to the contrary is undeniable and mounting." However, with all that "undeniable", "mounting" evidence at your disposal, you fail to address even one of my specific examples of how far we've come as a nation. Let me make it a little easier for you. Let's just take one at a time. The first point is "Rampant Sexism". My example will be the specific year 1830. In that year, the following was true:

1) Women couldn't vote
2) Colleges generally would not accept women students
3) Married women had no property rights

Your challenge is to explain what about today's society is more sexist than it was in 1830. Once you've done that, we'll go onto the second point and go from there. If you want to concede this one (which I certainly believe you will), I'll let you choose the next point of discussion.

Overall, what you fail to realize is that we have more information at our disposal than ever before. Bush has certainly made some missteps as a president, there is some corruption in his administration, and he has a goodly amount of pride. Because of our information access, we can discover and publish all his failings like never before, compile our little lists, develop conspiracy theories, and come away foaming at the mouth. But in reality, Bush is just a man like you, with beliefs that guide his decisions; a man that really believes in his country, democracy, and the constitution. If his vision of how things should be differs from yours, then say so, write your congressman, vote Democratic, etc. But if you think he's a fascist for the way he's done things, then your understanding of fascism is sorely mistaken.

fatman,Sorry, it's... (Below threshold)
Steven Wiser:

fatman,

Sorry, it's been a long week at work and I've pretty much been getting up, working, and going to bed. I have a rather long post for you in store in the other thread, but it'll take awhile to put it together. Meanwhile, I suggest you take a look at the following, since I will be referencing it: PS Analysis. This link is a point-by-point refutation of "The Pink Swastika". The authors of that book weren't historians, but they apparently did have advanced degrees in making shit up, as this site shows repeatedly and in great detail. I'm sure that you'll find it enlightening.




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