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Another Sunday, Another Rove/Plame Story From Newsweek

The new Rove/Plame article, mentioned in this post, is out. Here's the nut:

In a brief conversation with Rove, Cooper asked what to make of the flap over Wilson's criticisms. NEWSWEEK obtained a copy of the e-mail that Cooper sent his bureau chief after speaking to Rove. (The e-mail was authenticated by a source intimately familiar with Time's editorial handling of the Wilson story, but who has asked not to be identified because of the magazine's corporate decision not to disclose its contents.) Cooper wrote that Rove offered him a "big warning" not to "get too far out on Wilson." Rove told Cooper that Wilson's trip had not been authorized by "DCIA"--CIA Director George Tenet--or Vice President Dick Cheney. Rather, "it was, KR said, wilson's wife, who apparently works at the agency on wmd [weapons of mass destruction] issues who authorized the trip." Wilson's wife is Plame, then an undercover agent working as an analyst in the CIA's Directorate of Operations counterproliferation division. (Cooper later included the essence of what Rove told him in an online story.) The e-mail characterizing the conversation continues: "not only the genesis of the trip is flawed an[d] suspect but so is the report. he [Rove] implied strongly there's still plenty to implicate iraqi interest in acquiring uranium fro[m] Niger ... "

Nothing in the Cooper e-mail suggests that Rove used Plame's name or knew she was a covert operative.

So, in essence, absolutely no indication that a crime has been committed by Rove. According to what we know so far Rove identified Wilson's wife, who he indicated worked in some function at the CIA, as the person who authorized his trip to Nigeria. That doesn't indicate that Rove knew anything about Plame's status as an undercover agent. It merely indicates that he was trying to communicate to Cooper that Wilson's trip to Nigeria was a fraud from start to finish. Something which we learned later.

The fact that Plame sent Wilson on the trip to Nigeria was an important part of debunking Wilson's report. This was no political smear, it was the pointing out of nepotism which further supported the idea that Wilson's trip was politically, not factually, motivated. If keeping Plame's identity a secret was such a top priority then maybe she and her husband shouldn't have gotten involved with the phony trip to Nigeria.

If anything, these revelations are far more damaging to Plame and her husband than they are to Rove.

Update:


Spoons disagrees with me
:

Yeah, okay, maybe there's no crime, but it strikes me that Rove's going to be conclusively identified as the/a leaker within days. Once that happens, he's toast. He probably won't go to jail, and he probably won't even be indicted (unless he perjured himself, which I have know way of knowing), but I think it's likely that his days as a White House advisor are numbered -- and that that number is less than 30.

That's one way to look at it, but I think Spoons is missing the larger picture. At the time Rove was talking to Cooper it was coming out that Wilson's trip to Nigeria was one big politically-motivated canard aimed at smearing the President of the "Saddam was looking for uranium" issue. Rove had no doubt learned at this time about the nepotism involved with the selection of Wilson to travel to Nigeria and the CIA approval of it, so why shouldn't he give that information to a reporter especially if he wasn't aware that Wilson's was an undercover CIA agent and/or he didn't provide the reporter with her name. Especially in light of the scorching op/ed Wilson had just written for the New York Times.

Did Rove leak Palme's name? Maybe. But even if he did I think we have to look at the circumstances of the leak as well. If Rove named her not knowing that she was an undercover CIA agent and in reaction to Wilson's rather blatant and factually-challenged smearing of President Bush I have a hard time holding it against him.

Rob Port is the owner and operator of Say Anything.


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Comments (126)

So how long until the word ... (Below threshold)
chad:

So how long until the word coverup is used?

What a joke this post is. ... (Below threshold)
Joe Mama:

What a joke this post is. I'll give you guys this much, you never say die. The problem is that Rove most likely committed perjury, and that is what he prosecutor is setting up a case for. Also, Rove has said he did not speak with any reporters before the Novak story was ran. This proves that is obviously a lie. One lie always leads to another, and another, and before you know, the actual truth comes out. Imagine that, the truth. Ever heard of it.

JoeYou know what R... (Below threshold)

Joe

You know what Rove testified to in front of the Grand Jury?

No?

Oh.

Whatever.

RE: Joe Mama's post (July 1... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

RE: Joe Mama's post (July 10, 2005 12:36 PM)

I'll give you guys this much, you never say die.

Right back at ya'.


...Ever heard of it[?]

Hmm. Depends on what the definition of it is. Oops, my bad. I thought that read is.

Joe's trolling again. Depe... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Joe's trolling again. Depending on facts not in evidence is his MO. I don't know what the end result of all this will be but I am willing to wait until actual facts are presented. Not 'Crowing' now prevents eating crow later.

Tob

Hey, why don't you guys sta... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Hey, why don't you guys start a huricane-blogging thread and I keep you updated as long as I have services. Right now Dennis is heading straight for my house, just like Ivan. It could be another cool eye experience like last time only better as it will still be daylight. Winds are starting to really gust and the rain is steady but light. If I lose broadband, I will switch to dialup and if I lose power, I switch to laptop. It maybe rather boring or not depending on many factors.

Tob

I can see from these commen... (Below threshold)
-S-:

I can see from these comments as also elsewhere that this issue is making liberals' minds explode...in a frenzy of overly complicated, grasping rationalizations...Rove...Rove...what to do?

It's such a straightforward set of events and yet, liberals just can't handle the truth. Thus, blowing their minds out.

Gusts increasing in strengt... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Gusts increasing in strength and duration but rain is still just drizzling. Lost my first tree, a pine, but it was weakened by Ivan and was on my list to cut down anyway.

Tob

I think people are missing ... (Below threshold)

I think people are missing the bigger point, that Joe Wilson is a bald faced liar who repeatedly said that his wife had nothing to do with his being selected for the Niger mission.

Niger, not Nigeria... (Below threshold)
BooMan:

Niger, not Nigeria

THIS whole sordid affair is... (Below threshold)

THIS whole sordid affair is nothing but:

A Cowardly Coverup of Traitorous Treason;

with Bush and company firmly behind it all from the get go.

FACT: this was a heinous act of TREASON during WARTIME.

"FACT: this was a heinous a... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"FACT: this was a heinous act of TREASON during WARTIME."

Is that you Joe Mama? I find it hard to believe that there are 2 people with such psychic powers.

- Back to the storm -

Dennis is bringing hard rain and impressive sustained winds in the 40 kt range now. During the last 2 hours the center of the storm has tracked almost due North, directly at Pensacola. (Fox News has excellent coverage of PBeach) That will prevent a repeat of our most exciting night with Ivan. (no eye this time) and may make this just anti-climactic here in Baldwin county. Our condo at PBeach will probably be totalled now since the dunes and the condos between ours and the gulf (which protected it somewhat last year) are gone. Damn. The only good part is that we had made only structural repairs since we have been in dispute with the insurance companies (why do you have to have 5 different insurance companies if you have a place on the beach?) and the condo-owners assoc. The bad news is a total rebuild involves the newest building codes which make it cost the unblievable sum of $200 / ft2. We may just sell the space to some other suckers with deeper pockets. Damn. Damn. Damn.

Tob

I guess that I will only comment if something amazing happens now.

THIS whole sordid affair... (Below threshold)
John:

THIS whole sordid affair is nothing but:

A Cowardly Coverup of Traitorous Treason;

with Bush and company firmly behind it all from the get go.

FACT: this was a heinous act of TREASON during WARTIME.
Your right. Plame and Wilson shouldn't be allow to skate on what they've tried.

whoops, misplaced the closi... (Below threshold)
John:

whoops, misplaced the closing italics tag.

Although this "A Cowardly C... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Although this "A Cowardly Coverup of Traitorous Treason" is an impressive bit of alliteration that is probably beyond JM's ability.

Tob

Not coincidentally, a lot o... (Below threshold)
-S-:

Not coincidentally, a lot of conservative sites have been trolled in the last two days or so by whomever writing the very same thing (some version of "traitor" for Karl Rove, or "treason" as to his falsely described brief conversation with the reporter).

Such that, it's some sort of liberal trolling meme by this point, writing wherever by ever-permutating I.D.s, on the internet, trying to advance the correlation of the words, almost certainly due to search engine ratings and future references.

It's a very sad statement about liberals, not about Karl Rove -- liberals cannot comprehend treason any more than they can not enthuse about Michael Moore, among other misplaced adulations.

Rove tried to get the point across that Wilson wasn't reliable, was not someone that TIME's reporter should place too much faith in, and said that Wilson's wife had arranged his yellowcake trip, never used her name, never said she was an agent with anything -- but the woman was known publicly to be employed in a federal position (not known to be an agent, just an employee) and such that Rove saying what he said compromised no one, revealed nothing, named no one, etc., etc.

It's sad to read liberals ranting about all the wrong things and missing the more important points as to other very important things, like the war in Iraq, the truth and reality of the Rove comments, Wilson's lying...

Another thing: does anyone... (Below threshold)
-S-:

Another thing: does anyone actually believe that Judith Miller would go to jail to protect Karl Rove? Ridiculous! Probably Miller was the source to Cooper's name-gain. She's going to jail to protect her own misbehavior, which is far more realistic than to think Karl Rove would compromise his ethics just to court a reporter from TIME. The whole idea is ludicrous.

And, to repeat, Rove's said that he spoke with Cooper and Cooper's quoted Rove and no where in that brief quote did Rove reveal that Joe Wilson's wife was a CIA agent. He said that Wilson's wife arranged Wilson's trip. To make the point to Cooper -- my understanding after readin the information -- that Wilson had lied to Cooper and/or in Wilson's previous statements otherwise (in which Wilson presented himself as going to Iraq under other auspices, which he was lying about).

Seems clear and easily understandable to my view.

....sorry, typo (^^): shou... (Below threshold)
-S-:

....sorry, typo (^^): should have written, 'Wilson sent to Niger,' not sent to Iraq.

Nothing to see here, folks.... (Below threshold)
Sarah Van:

Nothing to see here, folks...no matter how much Newsweek wants to pin this on Rove. The White House debunked what we now know to be a false representation of Wilson's trip to Niger. How and why he went is crucial to understanding how this false report came to be. Rove didn't "out" Plame, she and Wilson did it themselves when they ginned up this trip and then filed a fradulent report. Who is the real criminal here?

Patriot(NOT!)1776, you migh... (Below threshold)
Sarah Van:

Patriot(NOT!)1776, you might be a little more credible if you didn't trot out the latest moonbat talking points and link to downingstreetmemo.com. Really, what's next? Are you going to tell us the moon landings were faked?

"...then filed a fradulent ... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"...then filed a fradulent report." Wasn't it a factual report but a fradulent op-ed? That's why Wilson was hoisted by the 9/11 commission. I thought that his own words (made public by that commission) revealed that he was lying during the campaign season.

Tob

Wow. There sure are a lot ... (Below threshold)
democracy_inaction:

Wow. There sure are a lot of apologists for treason. If this was a Democratic administration, you would all be frothing at the mouth calling for a hanging in the town square. Since it's your ideological brethren, we get a big yawn.

Whether or not Rove is the guy, SOMEBODY in the Bush administration committed treason, plain and simple. SOMEBODY outed an undercover CIA officer, a WMD expert no less, during a war. That you don't care that a high-placed government official - regardless of party - betrayed YOUR country just floors me. Because it's a Republican, they get a free pass.

Treason's a pretty serious crime, about as serious as it gets. It makes you wonder what law or how many laws a Republican would have to break for you to get worked up about it and stop apologizing for them.

Not to mention that you all seem to believe Rove's bald-faced lie that Wilson's wife arranged the Niger trip. That is utterly baseless and wholly without merit. It's called a smear and you all act like Rove's an angel who wouldn't push a lie to smear an opponent. You obviously don't know him very well.

Rove is going down, if not for treason then for perjury and maybe even conspiracy.

And before you all start apologizing for perjury, just remember what happened to the last high-ranking government official that got caught for perjury. He was impeached for it.

So when Rove goes to jail for perjury, let's not have any carping.

- Sorry dim-o-crap in-strai... (Below threshold)

- Sorry dim-o-crap in-straightjacket - S and Sarah Van hit it on the nail - theres no way in hell Miller is going to jail to protect Rove... she'd eat her tin-foil hat before she'd ever do that... she's protecting her lie'beral fellow Bush haters.... pure and simple... This whole Plame/Wilson fiasco is just another SeeBS effort by the moonbat press...

- But hey... Knowing the thought process of the wookies maybe they'll be just as stupid as Rather and play it out to its totally ludicrious end... Somehow I think, like LurchKerry's 180, the lefties behind this whole mess will probably never be known... But we can hope....

-S- may be onto something. ... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

-S- may be onto something. There does appear to be a meme going on here. Is it spontaneous or is this some directive from Soros? Someone with a stronger stomach than me needs to lurk the LL sites and report back.

Tob

PS. Storms abating. Nothing cool to report, just more rain and wind.

Hmmm.I still think... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

I still think it would be hilarious if it turned out that either Plame or Wilson was the original source.

"Hi. I am Ambassador Wilson and this is my wife, the CIA agent."

Or

"Oh my wife? She works at the CIA in Langley, but she used to be a secret agent overseas."

hehe.

LOL! Yeah, George Soros se... (Below threshold)
democracy_inaction:

LOL! Yeah, George Soros sent me. You go ahead and think whatever helps you get to sleep at night. I'm sorry that you can't comprehend that some people actually think for themselves and don't need someone to feed them their talking points.

And Judith Miller a liberal?! Where do you live, uder a rock? Judy is one of YOURS. She was one of the biggest cheerleaders for Bush's Iraq folly and wrote all kinds of lies in support of the Iraq war. She was the administration's darling. Chalabi was her biggest source for crying out loud.

Although I'm conflicted about her serving jail time for protecting a source, there is some poetic justice that she is rotting in a jail cell.

Joe Mama!, quit signing on ... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Joe Mama!, quit signing on with different id's. Stand up for yourself man.

Tob

Man, this is getting good. ... (Below threshold)
democracy_inaction:

Man, this is getting good. Now, not only did George Soros send me but I'm Joe Mama signing on under a different ID (I assume, Toby, that your comment was directed at me but please correct me if I'm wrong).

I know that you probably find it difficult to comprehend that more than one person doesn't agree with you but if you got out a little more and didn't spend all of your time preaching to the choir on web sites friendly to your point of view, you might be surprised.

Well, DinA, if your not JM,... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Well, DinA, if your not JM, accept my apologies. He's no one you want to be mistaken for. I just jumped to the conclusion since your styles are so similar. In with a insult, long string of assertions of facts not in evidence, a faux pleasure at being engaged. Hard to tell the difference. ;-)

Anyway, my apologies for defaming you.

Tob

Besides, aren't you Canadian? Treason against the United States, (if treason acquired) is for us to determine.

It is not treason to point ... (Below threshold)
Sarah Van:

It is not treason to point out that Wilson, who supposedly was representing the interests of the United States was sent on the Niger trip by his WIFE. It's also not treason to point out that he wrote an editorial lying about his findings. He and his wife misused their positions and taxpayer funds for partisan anti-administration purposes. During a time of war, perhaps that's a hell of a lot closer to treason than pointing out the FACTS behind the story.

Hey, democracy_inaction.</p... (Below threshold)
Karmafish:

Hey, democracy_inaction.

You’ll never get through to most of these people. They have such an irrational hatred of Democrats and liberals that they would never allow any argument or evidence to suggest that Rove was anything but an honest player.

I have no idea how they would, for example, justify Bush/Rove’s sliming of McCain in South Carolina, but justify it they would.

Sorry Toby, you missed agai... (Below threshold)
democracy_inaction:

Sorry Toby, you missed again. I'm very much American.

If you got thrown off when I said that someone in the Bush administration betrayed YOUR country, that was simply a rhetorical device to illustrate that you should be just as outraged as I am by an act of treason.

Karmafish, thanks for the l... (Below threshold)
Sarah Van:

Karmafish, thanks for the laugh. I always love it when moonbats try and pretend to be reasonable while vomiting out terms like treason where none exists.

Gosh Sarah, you assume so m... (Below threshold)
democracy_inaction:

Gosh Sarah, you assume so much. You assume that Rove wasn't lying when he tried to argue that Wilson was sent to Niger at his wife's suggestion, as assertion which it utterly baseless. You also assume that Wilson lied in his editorial, which is also utterly baseless.

The only reason that you think any of those things have merit is because if they did, then your world view wouldn't be threatened.

Cognitive dissonance can be ugly.

Yikes, I've added insult to... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Yikes, I've added insult to injury with that Canadian question.

I'll stop jumping to conclusions now. ;-) And I hope you'll do the same. The wheels of justice grind slow but they grind exceedingly fine. I wll await the issuing of warrants or a report from the SP or some evidence at all before I judge on the Plame matter.

Tob

"ou assume that Rove wasn't... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"ou assume that Rove wasn't lying when he tried to argue that Wilson was sent to Niger at his wife's suggestion, as assertion which it utterly baseless."

What would constitute a basis for you DinA? Am I mistaken in remembering that the 9/11 commission report said that she did, in fact, recommend that her husband be sent, since he had such good contacts there and also with the French?

Tob

I'm off to check the 9/11 Commission report to see. Be back in a bit.

Yeah, thanks Karmafish for ... (Below threshold)
democracy_inaction:

Yeah, thanks Karmafish for the laugh. You got Sarah all riled up and she's funny when she's mad.

I'm only surprised that someone didn't accuse you of being me or vice versa.

Perhaps, I am wrong. A qui... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Perhaps, I am wrong. A quick check for the 9/11 Report doesn't even find the word wilson in it. More checking.

Tob

Odd the same people calling... (Below threshold)

Odd the same people calling Rove a "traitor" tend to defend Alger Hiss.

And they wonder why no one takes their claims seriously.

Stay on topic (and in the 2... (Below threshold)
democracy_inaction:

Stay on topic (and in the 21st century), Gabriel, no one here has even mentioned Alger Hiss but you.

I wonder where the moonbats... (Below threshold)
bullwinkle:

I wonder where the moonbats will go with this if it turns out that Wilson himself leaked Plame's name to make his fictitious report look legitmate. That's been my guess all along, he outed her when his report came under fire to bolster his own credentials, knida like saying "I know what I'm doing, I'm qualified to be doing this because my wife double-checked it for me". Does anyone here think the left will be calling it treason if that turns out to be the case?

Off to do some work, back i... (Below threshold)
democracy_inaction:

Off to do some work, back in a bit.

Ah, testimoney before the S... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Ah, testimoney before the SENATE 9/11 committee.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60223-2004Jul18.html

Money graf:

In the recently released Senate Select Committee on Intelligence report, Sen. Pat Roberts (R-Kan.), chairman of the panel, and two other Republican members concluded that the plan to send Wilson to Niger "was suggested" by his wife, Valerie Plame, a CIA employee who specialized in weapons of mass destruction. Wilson and senior intelligence officials have repeatedly denied that Plame played a role in selecting him to go to Niger other than as a conduit to come to the agency to discuss the issue.

Roberts based his conclusion in part on a memo Plame sent to her boss describing Wilson's "good relations'' with Niger officials. The committee report also disclosed that a CIA reports officer had told the staff that Wilson's wife had "offered up [Wilson's] name."

Wilson said yesterday on CNN that the reports officer's statement "was taken out of context" and in a letter to the Senate committee he had asked that the reports officer be re-interviewed. As for his wife's note to her boss about his Niger contacts, Wilson said that "he was told that somebody in that chain of command asked Valerie to do my list of curriculum vitae."

On how his trip to Niger was initiated, Wilson said, the committee "got that particular point wrong."

- note that Wilson disputes the point -

I could look for me, do I need to?

Tob

"I could look for me, do I ... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"I could look for me, do I need to?"

Damn, poor brain-to-finger coordination.

I could look for MORE, do I need to?

Tob

democracy_inaction:<p... (Below threshold)

democracy_inaction:

Historical precedent is always relevant. And the century is irrelevant, given that most of the intel failures that contributed to 9/11 stem from piss poor management of our intel community during the 90's.

Team Lefty continues to embarass itself by pushing a non-story, the media is complicit in their keeping it front page.

A question if anyone can answer it, why on earth would any reporter protect Rove? If something doesn't pass the smell test it is that Time, Newsweek, and the NYTimes have in essence protected someone that they have spent the last 4 years trying to destroy. It doesn't make any sense.

It wasn't Rove that was bei... (Below threshold)
John:

It wasn't Rove that was being protected. It was Wilson's credibility. You can't hold Rove accountable for long without leading to the discussion of what exactly he said and what that means.

I expect this story will have a real short halflife to prevent digging into the contents of Roves remarks. We'll go from 'Rove outted a CIA agent' to 'Bush is protecting him, what can you do.' in no time.

Painful admission on pg 445... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Painful admission on pg 445 of REPORT ON THE US. INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY’S PREWAR INTELLIGENCE ASSESSMENTS ON IRAQ:

Additional Views of Chairman Pat Roberts joined by
Senator Christopher S. Bond, Senator Orrin G. Hatch
...
Despite our hard and successhl work to deliver a unanimous report, however, there were two issues on which the Republicans and Democrats could not agree: 1) whether the Committee should conclude that former Ambassador Joseph Wilson’s public statements were not based on knowledge he actually possessed, and 2) whether the Committee should conclude that it was the former ambassador’swife who recommended him for his trip to Niger.
...
"In an interview with Committee staff, Mr. Wilson was asked how he knew some of the things he was stating publicly with such confidence. On at least two occasions he admitted that he had no direct knowledge to support some of his claims and that he was drawing on either unrelated past experiences or no information at all. For example, when asked how he “knew” that the Intelligence Community had rejected the possibility of a Niger-Iraq uranium deal, as he wrote in his book, he told Committee staff that his assertion may have involved “a little literary flair.” The former Ambassador, either by design or though ignorance, gave the American people and, for that matter, the world a version of events that was inaccurate, unsubstantiated, and misleading. Surely, the Senate Intelligence Committee, which has unique access to all of the facts, should have been able to agree on a conclusion that would correct the public record. Unfortunately, we were unable to do so."

And more on point from pg 443:

"The former ambassador’s wife suggested her husband for the trip to Niger in February 2002. The former ambassador had traveled previously to Niger on behalf of the CIA, also at the suggestion of his wife, to look into another matter not related to Iraq. On February 12, 2002, the former ambassador’swife sent a memorandum to a Deputy Chief of a division in the CIA’SDirectorate of Operations which said, “[mJyhusband has good relations with both the PM [prime minister] and the former Minister of Mines (not to mention lots of French contacts), both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity.’’ This was just one day before the same Directorate of Operations division sent a cable to one of its overseas stations requesting concurrence with the division’s idea to send the former ambassador to Niger."

Now google for yourselves. ;-)

Tob

And DinA, before you point ... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

And DinA, before you point out that this was in the Republican only part of the report, read pages 36 forward (the part that both parties agreed was correct). Same facts. Indeed, none of the facts were in dispute, just those two conclusions drawn from the facts. Read them and see who you agree with.

Tob

Sorry. For the google-impai... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Sorry. For the google-impaired:

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/serialset/creports/iraq.html

Tob

After rereading the thread ... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

After rereading the thread and the report, I have to agree: "Cognitive dissonance can be ugly." ;-)

Tob

"The fact that Plame sent W... (Below threshold)
Jon H:

"The fact that Plame sent Wilson on the trip to Nigeria was an important part of debunking Wilson's report."

Debunking?

Wilson was right!

Debunking something means to show that it is false. Regardless of how he got the job, in order to debunk his performance, you have to show that he was wrong. This has not been accomplished.

Therefore, he was not "debunked".

First to Toby - what you've... (Below threshold)
democracy_inaction:

First to Toby - what you've offered up is no more than a he-said-she-said and doesn't prove anything. Still, even if Plame recommended that Wilson go to Niger, that's still a long way from what Sarah was saying, that Plame "sent" Wilson to Niger as it wasn't her decision to make.

Gabriel - you are among so many I have seen that keep saying that Judith Miller is some kind of liberal. That's completely false. She was one of the biggest cheerleaders for the Iraq war and is VERY pro-Bush. She is nothing more than a stenographer for Bush administration talking points and that's why the liberals hate her.

Jon H, follow my link, rea... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Jon H, follow my link, read the report. While his report to the CIA was accurate as he saw it, that same report contradicted the op-ed he later wrote. That's what was debunked.

Tob

Sarah writes: "It is not tr... (Below threshold)
Jon H:

Sarah writes: "It is not treason to point out that Wilson, who supposedly was representing the interests of the United States was sent on the Niger trip by his WIFE."

He had the required skills and background, and his report was correct.

What's the problem? Another qualifed person would have reported the same. Several other qualified people *did* report the same.

What difference does it make that his wife was involved in his selection, when he's qualified for the job?

"It's also not treason to point out that he wrote an editorial lying about his findings. He and his wife misused their positions and taxpayer funds for partisan anti-administration purposes."

It only went partisan after Bush lied about the uranium. And his wife never misued her position.

"During a time of war, perhaps that's a hell of a lot closer to treason than pointing out the FACTS behind the story."

The investigation and the report were done before the war started. Then Bush decided to lie.

DinA, I don't deny that it ... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

DinA, I don't deny that it is in fact a she-said/they-said case (except for the email she sent, so perhaps it is a she-said/they-said,it-said case) What it refutes is your categorical statement to wit:
"Gosh Sarah, you assume so much. You assume that Rove wasn't lying when he tried to argue that Wilson was sent to Niger at his wife's suggestion, as assertion which it utterly baseless. You also assume that Wilson lied in his editorial, which is also utterly baseless."

The report from the SENATE, both parties represented and in agreement, give plenty of basis for Sarah's assertion.

Tob

Toby928,Regarding ... (Below threshold)
Jon H:

Toby928,

Regarding Plame's involvement in Wilson's selection, from the excerpt above, it doesn't seem that she had any control over the decision. The CIA could easily have chosen someone else, had Wilson lacked qualifications. It's not like Wilson's selection offered any advantages to the CIA other than his being readily available. (For example, it's not like Wilson's father is an influential congressman, who can influence the appropriations process.)

Her husband was well-qualified, and well-regarded, so it's no surprise that the CIA chose him, rather than spending the time to find another person.

When I think of someone getting a job because of their family, I think of incompetent people like Neil Bush and Roger Clinton.

Jon H, I don't dispute your... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Jon H, I don't dispute your last post, as far as it goes. I don't know for a fact whether Plame had any power or whether she pushed her husband for the job. According to the Senate report she definitely reccommend him. Did the 'leak' suggest more? I don't recall. What set me off with DinA and wasted lots of my time rereading the report was his baseless assertion of Sarah's baselessness... or whatever you want to call it.

Tob

And the report is pretty damning as far as the op-ed goes. Do I need to quote it? I really would rather that people read it themselves.

-S- I see how this kind of ... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

-S- I see how this kind of thing could really bug you. The whole meme nonsense I mean. This report, prepared by the US Senate, available online in PDF, Zip, and HTML form, eagerly awaited at the time, has just been dropped down the memory hole by the MSM so that many posters here and elsewhere seem to be unaware of its existance even thouh it is totally on point regarding anything to do with the Plame/Wilson affair.

Tob

Hmmm."Her husband ... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

"Her husband was well-qualified, and well-regarded, so it's no surprise that the CIA chose him, rather than spending the time to find another person."

Except of course he didn't have ANY experience in intelligence, WMDs, yellowcake or anything else to do with this particular mission. Neither did he have any experience in doing this sort of work for the CIA.

All the evidence points to is that Wilson got the job because his wife suggested him, and that he's never done anything similar prior to, or since. That's not much of a resume, and I'd be frankly horrified if there wasn't at least a dozen other people more qualified.

This has all the hallmarks of a gimme-contract. This is where a government employee gets a nice money-maker contract for a spouse or relative. What I'd like to know, and something that no MSM news source has provided, is the Wilson/Plame financials. Did they purchase any signficant property shortly after Wilson's mission? I.e. after he got paid for this nonsense?

If so then what we're looking at is Plame setting up a contract for her husband, so they could make the payment on a house or something. Which is frankly far more likely than any other possible scenario.

Are there any public databases that would list such purchases by name?

Ad, I thought it was report... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Ad, I thought it was reported that Wilson worked pro-bono. Of course, since it was CIA, who knows?

Tob

Ed, I mean, I should have ... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Ed, I mean, I should have recognized the hmmm. My eyes are going blurry.

Sorry
Tob

Hmmm."While the C.... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

"While the C.I.A. paid my expenses (my time was offered pro bono)"

link

Which means nothing until/unless the actual numbers are published. And yes I'm implying that expense records can be inflated substantially. I frankly wouldn't call padding the expense report "new".

" I frankly wouldn't call p... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

" I frankly wouldn't call padding the expense report "new"."

Good point, and this is a covert organization after all. There could have been straight cash under the table, maybe cash from Niger or someone else. How would we know? I just wouldn't even ask the question unless I knew something since I routinely condemn the LL posters for just that type of unsupported assertion. Witness the existance of this very thread. ;-)

Tob

Tob, glad you're safe there... (Below threshold)
BR:

Tob, glad you're safe there in the storm. On the lighter side, your live-blogging from the storm gave this thing Shakespearean dimensions with thunder rolls in the background. It's both a tragedy and a comedy.

No use debating the moonbats, their comments show how uninformed they are. The more frantically they scream Rove did it, the more it's clear we're now watching the unraveling of a coverup of a setup operation done against Bush, starting with the "French" forged Niger docs, instigating a WH order to the CIA to investigate the Niger connection, then sending Gore2000-contributor Wilson to Niger, then the rest of the saga - probably hatched by the usual suspects in the CIA/MSM and ex-NSC/State Dept types like Berger, Clarke and Beers. (Ha, wouldn't it be funny if Berger's theft and destruction of that 15-pg memo by Clarke has something to do with this setup and coverup!)

The GREAT thing in exposing the op this time, unlike CBSgate, is: we've already got a federal prosecutor and a grand jury on the case! And oh the irony, it was the left who were clamoring for an investigation. Hoist by their own petard. Go for it, Fitzgerald!

*****

Isikoff wrote in his above-linked article: "Wilson's wife is Plame, then an undercover agent working as an analyst in the CIA's Directorate of Operations counterproliferation division."

Which is it Isikoff? "Undercover agent" or "analyst"? Can't be both at the same time.

[As in that great Caribbean-accented, Malibu drink commercial with the car-buying scenario:]

New or used, new or used,
Which is it going to be?
Daisy or Maisy, Daisy or Maisy,
Which is it?
The retreaded donkey that's been around the island 20,000 times or the other donkey?

But back to Shakespeare, a Dem operative by any other name still smells like a donkey.

Toby,OK, I see you... (Below threshold)
democracy_inaction:

Toby,

OK, I see you want to play semantic games, and I obviously didn't choose my words carefully enough for someone that wants to play semantic games.

My post was a response to Sarah's post, in which she stated that Plame "sent" Wilson to Niger. I think we can all agree that that couldn't have happened because that wasn't her decision to make. That's the point I meant to make, the suggestion that Plame "sent" Wilson to Niger is, obviously, utterly baseless.

What I actually said was that it was utterly baseless that Wilson was sent to Niger on Plame's "suggestion," and since this hasn't been proven conclusively (he-said-she-said), my statement may or may not be technically correct. We don't have enough information at this point to know whether or not it was technically correct so you haven't actually "refuted" anything. The jury's still out.

But let's put all tha aside for a moment and assume that Plame did suggest that Wilson go to Niger. So what? Wilson was qualified, would it have been wrong for Plame to say as much? Unless of course you have a problem with people telling the truth...

Cancon, if you see this, ca... (Below threshold)
BR:

Cancon, if you see this, can you give a link for one of your earlier comments in the 5 July 2005 wizbang thread where you reported on Wilson's Niger Uranium claims in the Senate Intelligence Committee Report on Iraqi Intelligence:

"… another little area Mr. Wilson got himself in trouble, he claimed to have seen the forged documents before he could have possibly seen them, they didn't get into the hands of the CIA until a few months after he claimed to have seen them, unless----- well never mind----- oh details, pesky little details, oh but it made his story so much more compelling huh......"

(Is that also in the Report or did you find it elsewhere on the net?)

"But let's put all tha asid... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"But let's put all tha aside for a moment and assume that Plame did suggest that Wilson go to Niger. So what? Wilson was qualified, would it have been wrong for Plame to say as much? Unless of course you have a problem with people telling the truth..."

Yikes, don't be snide. Your problems not with me, its with the Senate. I haven't ever said he was or wasn't qualified. I haven't thought about it. I just didn't like that you use "utterly baseless" so much when very few people have NO basis for what they believe, and that certainly includes Sarah. I was just pointing out that while your assertion wasn't necessarily baseless, it was bootless. ;-)

And yet, you persist: "What I actually said was that it was utterly baseless that Wilson was sent to Niger on Plame's "suggestion," and since this hasn't been proven conclusively (he-said-she-said), my statement may or may not be technically correct. We don't have enough information at this point to know whether or not it was technically correct so you haven't actually "refuted" anything. The jury's still out."

Hell, boy, what would it take to bring the jury in? Multiple witnesses against one, check, email evidence, check. I think you could get conviction on less evidence than that. If the Senate report is not enough to convince I guess you'll just never be convinced. (And you condemn us for our biases, sheesh). This particular point, that Plame recommended her husband for the job, is as established as anything you'll get in life. You would have to believe that the Senate select committee had some interest in lying about what their investigators found, and that the Democratic Senators and staff would go along with it.

And you said more: "You also assume that Wilson lied in his editorial, which is also utterly baseless."

Again, that annoying baseless. But leaving that aside, did you read the report. (I guess I should ask if you read his op-ed also, but I am afraid that you didn't) Compare the two. Res Ipsa Loquitur.

Rove may be the leaker, how would I know?, But you don't know either and you don't know when you're whupped.

Tob

I'm tired and bored with this.

/ignore=on

Wow. You people are crazy.<... (Below threshold)
C:

Wow. You people are crazy.

"The more frantically they scream Rove did it, the more it's clear we're now watching the unraveling of a coverup of a setup operation done against Bush, starting with the "French" forged Niger docs, instigating a WH order to the CIA to investigate the Niger connection, then sending Gore2000-contributor Wilson to Niger, then the rest of the saga - probably hatched by the usual suspects in the CIA/MSM and ex-NSC/State Dept types like Berger, Clarke and Beers. (Ha, wouldn't it be funny if Berger's theft and destruction of that 15-pg memo by Clarke has something to do with this setup and coverup!)"

And BR has the temerity to call people "moonbats?"

hahahahahahahahahahaha!

"hahahahahahahahahahaha!"</... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"hahahahahahahahahahaha!"

Frighteningly good comeback there C

Tob
goodnight

So BR, what you seem to be ... (Below threshold)
democracy_inaction:

So BR, what you seem to be saying is that if someone doesn't march in lockstep with the White House, they're conspiring against Bush? Is that about it?

Clarke, Beers, Wilson, these are all well respected statesmen that have served in Republican administrations. They have voiced concern with the Bush White House and instead of giving them the benefit of the doubt, you try to discredit them. Is it that hard to believe that there may be some merit to their concerns? Do you really believe that Bush - or anybody - can be right 100% of the time?

And I don't know why you're trying to discourage Toby from civil discourse, he and I may not agree but at least he's debating rationally. I respect that. I only wish there were more people like him on both sides. We would all be a lot better off.

It's real easy to write off people that don't agree with you as "uninformed" and simply attack them but it's a lot harder to have a rational exchange of ideas. If you can't have a rational exchange of ideas, it betrays how weak your ideas really are.

And by the way, I've seen some of the posters on this board throwing around the term "moonbats." I assume that's a term of endearment for "liberals" but since I'm relatively new to right-wing message boards, I haven't heard that one before. Can someone tell me what it means?

This is all so educational...

"Rove may be the leaker"</p... (Below threshold)
democracy_inaction:

"Rove may be the leaker"

Ah, Toby, at long last we can agree. And you thought I was whupped! ;O)

RE: democracy_inaction's po... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

RE: democracy_inaction's post (July 10, 2005 10:24 PM)

And by the way, I've seen some of the posters on this board throwing around the term "moonbats." I assume that's a term of endearment for "liberals" but since I'm relatively new to right-wing message boards, I haven't heard that one before. Can someone tell me what it means?

This is all so educational...

Kinda lazy democracy_inaction. Google had moonbat covered in the third link. Too much time chasing Rove's tail? ;)

Via google search for "defi... (Below threshold)
C:

Via google search for "define:moonbat" we find

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonbat

And I thought it was some derivative of "Governor Moonbeam." Live and learn.

C

It is obvious to me that so... (Below threshold)
roberto:

It is obvious to me that someone within the Bush administration leaked Plame's identity to get back at Wilson.

Regardless of my thoughts on this, it is NOT clear that Plame sent Wilson to Niger. But it IS very clear to most who have been paying attention that Wilson's report was accurate.

Finally, Rove had said that he did not discuss this issue to a reporter prior to Bob Novak's report. We now know he was lying. If he was lying about something as basic as this, he is hiding something and his credibility should be forfeit.

How many of you think Rove will be held accountable if it is determined beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was the culprit?

Such is the sad state of affairs we are faced with today where a single group within a party is in complete control of the Government.

I don't care if you're a republican or a democrat. Not having a balance of power is never a good thing. The only ones who benefit are the ones in power, and the middle and lower class are decidedly not in that group.

Joseph Wilson puts his foot... (Below threshold)
BR:

Joseph Wilson puts his foot in it – again – see his very recent 7/6/05 interview at a rabidly anti-Bush site, linked via this comment at July 9, 2005 08:24 AM. Could he be giving out classified info on the inner workings of the CIA now, in July 2005 ?

Plame is evidence of what I... (Below threshold)
Jim:

Plame is evidence of what I've said for several years -- the CIA is full of left-wing losers who couldn't catch a cold much less a terrorist. Instead of hiring former military and law enforcement people, the CIA hired losers from America's college campuses. The CIA is more of a think tank than it is an intelligence or counterterrorism agency.

The Left will go after Rove on this, but the Right should go after the CIA for allowing Plame to play politics using her idiot husband. If she's such a "covert" operative what the hell is she doing revealing her occupation to her hubby? What's she doing "assigning" her hubby to do anything for "The Company?"

PS: And I wonder just what ... (Below threshold)
Jim:

PS: And I wonder just what Ms. Plame "Super Spy" did prior to 9-11 to thwart that terrorist attack? Seems she was too busy playing partisan politics.

RE: roberto's post (July 10... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

RE: roberto's post (July 10, 2005 11:17 PM)

But it IS very clear to most who have been paying attention that Wilson's report was accurate.

Which parts of the report? The stuff before the tea breaks, during them, or afterwards? And did he ever record the kind of tea he sipped? Was it Long Island? Or was it Green? Or maybe even sweet? I forget. If not Long Island, did he record what the tea-leaves read into the dossier? And did he also ask the waiter for tips on misplaced orders for YellowCake? Who knows - maybe Uday Hussein-Freud slipped when ordering his dessert. So many questions... We must suckle every last drop of this witches' brew until we reach the bottom of the barrel, er, pot.


...Not having a balance of power is never a good thing. The only ones who benefit are the ones in power, and the middle and lower class are decidedly not in that group.

Well, I agree with this theory in part; however, the power is a reflection of the constituency and it continues to sway the "Right" way because of the increased failings of the "Left" one. When the political milieu changes, so will our leadership. Further, there is a large middle and lower class that agrees with the leadership in power, or at least moreso than the leadership out of power. Don't be misled by the idea that only rich, elected Republicans wield power or that all middle/lower class citizens are against them.

You know this Plame silline... (Below threshold)
Miss Melanie:

You know this Plame silliness has gone way too far when it starts affecting the judgement of once serious people like Eliot Cohen. Here's a man who has just now started to drink the Rat KoolAid about "incompetence", clearly a victim of the constant presence of the "latest leak" in the "treason story" and the daily escalation of "damning revelations". Cohen doesn't swallow everything, just enough to give succor to those saying we should cut and run. But the damage is done.

Pressure needs to be put on Fitzgerald to just get on with it, pull the trigger, go ahead and sweep up Libby or whichever peon is going to take the hit for this. Otherwise the drip-drip-drip is going to bleed away Rove's reputation with the American people, until it inevitably bleeds the Vice President's popularity and then the President's.

We should remember where th... (Below threshold)

We should remember where the whole Joe Wilson/Valerie Plame story started:

* * *

Valerie Plame should be 'frog-marched' out of Washington

... Joe Wilson's wife is not a foreign spy - she's a desk jockey at Langley (with a cushy place in Georgetown) who's responsible for ... wait for it ... tracking down WMD for our country!

Why on earth did someone with that very important responsbility pre-judge the Niger-Iraq-yellowcake story as "this crazy story"? I mean, its only our national security and stuff - no biggie.

Someone let Val Plame know: the Niger-Iraq-yellowcake "crazy story" turned out to be true.

How many other WMD leads has Ms. Plame given short shrift? Do you know about any more "crazy" WMD leads, Val? Maybe you should go look at those files again. Does her high security clearance prevent her from getting fired for not giving a whit about national security risks for which she's the responsbile agent?

Not only did Ms. Plame dismiss one of the key pieces of intelligence regarding Iraq potentially creating the Arab bomb - she successfuly recommended her gadfly husband to be the sole investigator to go check out the lead! How many millions of dollars go to the CIA for intelligence gathering each year? And yet the only person we have to send to Niger to see if Saddam is building a nuke is ... the house husband of an agent at Langley?

What's next? Will Valerie Plame send the family golden retriever to look for missle silos in North Korea?

This is the real story that the mainstream press won't touch with a ten-foot-pole. What heads should roll at Langley for entrusting our national security to the whims of the Wilson-Plame family travelogue?

* * *

Unbelievable. Shameful. Putting nepotism above national security.

Fire Valerie Plame now. She's a very real risk to our national security.

-nikita demosthenes

Hmmmm.1. "And did ... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

1. "And did he ever record the kind of tea he sipped?"

Amusingly enough he did include them in his NYT op-ed piece. He drank "mint tea".

2. "It is obvious to me that someone within the Bush administration leaked Plame's identity to get back at Wilson."

That is not obvious at all. Wilson was a former Ambassador and a common figure in the local cocktail circuit. His wife attended those very same parties with Wilson.

Does anyone think *Wilson* is the quiet, shy or retiring type? Let's face certain facts here. Wilson is quite obviously a media-hound, who loves the spotlight and would do anything to remain there.

There is no possible way that anybody meeting them wouldn't know that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA. The only possible point of contention is whether anyone knew she had once been on the NOC list as an undercover officer. But she had been removed from the NOC list, and undercover operations, BECAUSE she married Wilson.

3. "Finally, Rove had said that he did not discuss this issue to a reporter prior to Bob Novak's report. We now know he was lying. If he was lying about something as basic as this, he is hiding something and his credibility should be forfeit."

Jesus H. Christ!

Rove talked to Cooper the SAME F-ING DAY OF Novak's ARTICLE. There is every possibility that Rove did NOT talk to Cooper until AFTER the article had been published at 11 am.

Christ will you lefties stop mucking up the facts? Repeating the same damn things over and over again is really getting old. Every single time some scandal blows up, you lefties just start repeating any old thing that enters your head, regardless of whether or not it's correct.

And it's really irritating.

Hi, Ed, you're up late - or... (Below threshold)
BR:

Hi, Ed, you're up late - or early :)
Yes, it's amazing to see how uninformed, or wilfully ignorant, some can be.

Just got back from dinner and saw someone up there said I had temerity. So I looked it up just to make sure, because I couldn't believe a moonbat would give me a compliment. Sure enough, "audacity, fearless daring." Hee, reminds me of my darling husband who used to call me "the steel fist in a velvet glove."

Anyway, things sure are sizzling and very entertaining to watch as it unfolds, above the noise factor. During CBSgate, I said if we dig deep enough, we may discover that Watergate was much more a DNC/CIA scandal than is generally known. Same modus operandi as now; even some of the same players.

I wish this (need a shorter name for it:) longterm, multi-faceted WMD-Iraq-Niger-"French" forged docs-CIA-Plame-Wilson-NSC-DNC-MSM op, as it is uncovered, exposes the whole damn lot going back to the 60s. My wishes usually come true.

Hee, this may be a riddle t... (Below threshold)
BR:

Hee, this may be a riddle that few get:

Cherchez les femmes - and their hubbies
Both blondes, both company-connected
One married to a hippy lawyer in the WH who instigated the Watergate coverup and brought down Nixon.
The other married to a tea-sipping wannabe.

Déjà vu all over again.

” If Rove named her not kno... (Below threshold)

” If Rove named her not knowing that she was an undercover CIA agent and in reaction to Wilson’s rather blatant and factually-challenged smearing of President Bush I have a hard time holding it against him.”

You forget, however: You are not the audience that matters. You’re generally sympathetic to the Republicans, and you’ve followed this story closely. Most people haven’t. The story will read: “After months of denials, Republicans were forced to admit that a senior advisor to the President leaked the name of Valerie Plame, a secret agent for the CIA, in order to embarass a critic of the administration’s war in Iraq. Plame’s husband, Ambassador Joseph Wilson, reported before the war that there was no evidence to support administration claims that Iraq was seeking Uranium in Africa,. Following the war, the administration has not found any evidence to support its claims.”

That’s the way it’ll play.

Interesting.One re... (Below threshold)
Roberto:

Interesting.

One responder said ” If Rove named her not knowing that she was an undercover CIA agent and in reaction to Wilson’s rather blatant and factually-challenged smearing of President Bush I have a hard time holding it against him.”

Factually challenged? Are you saying that Wilson DID find evidence Iraq was trying to buy uranium from Niger and that he failed to report his findings to top administration officials and instead went public to smear Bush, or is it that you know that Iraq in fact WAS trying to buy uranium from Niger?

Another responder said "Rove talked to Cooper the SAME F-ING DAY OF Novak's ARTICLE. There is every possibility that Rove did NOT talk to Cooper until AFTER the article had been published at 11 am."


If that's true, then that renders my argument about Rove's credibility forfeit. I thought it was at least 2 days before.

/ignore=off'"Rove ... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

/ignore=off

'"Rove may be the leaker"

Ah, Toby, at long last we can agree. And you thought I was whupped! ;O)'

So, I guess this must be interpreted to mean that DinA retracts his bootless slur of 'utterly baseless' that he leveled at Sarah, but simply won't admit it. When debating and you go overboard on rhetoric and get called on it, the best thing is to admit it, rephrase in some way that comports more closely with reality, and move on to other points that may have validity. Never push a losing argument I say. It just makes you look foolish. I'm reminded of the Black Knight from Monty Python's Holy Grail. ;-)

And ignoring the noise from the LL,there could be something to the story: Rove 'leaker'. We will know in a few days or weeks but be prepared for the spin.

Tob

"Are you saying that Wilson... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"Are you saying that Wilson DID find evidence Iraq was trying to buy uranium from Niger"

Roberto, that is pretty much what the Senate found. Some evidence but no contracts or actual deliveries.

Pg 43 of section II:

Mayaki said, however, that in June 1999,,-businessman, approached him and insisted that Mayaki meet with an Iraqi delegation to discuss “expanding commercial relations” between Niger and Iraq. The intelligencereport said that Mayaki interpreted “expanding commercial relations” to mean that the delegation wanted to discuss uranium yellowcake sales.

and also on pg 46:

He [the CIA debriefer who Wilson reported to ] said he judged that the most important fact in the report was that the Nigerien officials admitted that the Iraqi delegation had traveled there in 1999, and that the Nigerien Prime Minister believed the Iraqis were interested in purchasing uranium, because this provided some confirmation of foreign government service reporting.


Tob

Plame's contacts in other c... (Below threshold)
negonerv:

Plame's contacts in other countries have been compromised and karl rove had a part in it. Republicans criticized Bill Clinton for his parsing of the word 'is' and extremely narrow definition of sex. Now you are too eager to say Rove is not really guilty because he did not say plames name or whole name or played charades or he was really mad or whatever. But I guess that is okay since this issue only involves destroying a cia operatives relationship with contacts all over the world and endangering their lives. Bush Sr. said that outing a cia operative is treason, not me. You know daddy Bush and Reagan made me mad and sad at times but the guy in there now just plain scares me. This country will take a long time to get over the damage he has done.

"Plame's contacts in other ... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"Plame's contacts in other countries have been compromised and karl rove had a part in it."

Well, negonerv, we will see what we will see, I'm prepared to wait. You guys should learn to possess yourselves with patience, something the Right has learned through four decades of bitter toil. What will be will be, and each proclamation of the end of the 'Cabal of war criminals' just makes things harder for your side if it doesn't work out.

Tob

So, Toby, do you realize ho... (Below threshold)
-S-:

So, Toby, do you realize how stupid your comments reveal you to be? Perhps illiterate due to no fault of your own (in which case, perhaps not stupid as just limited in cognitive abilities):

You wrote:

"-S- I see how this kind of thing could really bug you. The whole meme nonsense I mean. This report, prepared by the US Senate, available online in PDF, Zip, and HTML form, eagerly awaited at the time, has just been dropped down the memory hole by the MSM so that many posters here and elsewhere seem to be unaware of its existance even thouh it is totally on point regarding anything to do with the Plame/Wilson affair. Toby928 -- Posted by: Toby928 at July 10, 2005 08:29 PM"

The "meme thing" is liberal trolls with nothing better to do writing on total strangers' websites and forums otherwise, the two words in relationship to one another (and particularly on threads on those sites that mention the name, "Karl Rove" in another context than what the trolls would like to see cached without trollage): "Rove" and "treason" and/or "traitor."

I don't regard the information -- now repeated ad nauseum on most credible sites as to what Karl Rove said and did not say, about what Joe Wilson said and said again and the reporters from TIME and Newsweek, nor any reports about any of that -- as a meme.

I was probably writing over your head, however, given your ongoing attempts to lower the informational level here to sub-troll.

I've yet to read anything, ANYthing, that even remotely suggests, much less substantiates, anything approaching "treason" done by Karl Rove, and yet liberals and liberal trolls trolling liberally are insisting that the public record be modified to include their trolling. Just because they want it to be so.

Imagining ruining an ethical person's reputation (Karl Rove's, specifically, this 'issue') is the ACTUAL treason: treason to ethics, truth, the country itself. I'd love to read liberals tear into the character of Ted Kennedy, Joe Biden, Hillary, for Heaven's sake (please try), and more, but so far, all you can do is imagine the worst you can imagine and then try to see it evidenced afterward depending upon how many times you can type random I.D.s with fake email addresses all over the internet.

And, to another faker here, writing under the pretense of respecting democracy, it isn't that conservatives "hate democrats," but that democrats repeatedly prove to the rest of the world that they are not reality based, and that whoever refuses to join in their big revolution of nonreality is to be destroyed.

I don't hate the incapacitated. But I do challenge their inequities, even when those responsible can't help themselves. Reading Hillary Clinton's recent comments before her hand holders in Aspen/The Brookings Institute/The Aspen Institute, comes to mind here.

No, most conservatives don't "hate democrats," we just wonder how you can breathe and think at the same time.

Hey, -S-, I must not be ver... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Hey, -S-, I must not be very clear in my writing as I was attempting to support your position. I had not considered the possible implications of a deliberate attempt to skew search engines until I read your post yesterday. It seems plausible to me but in the end, fruitless. Thats what 'nonsense' meant when I used it, obviously, not very clearly. ;-) Not that your idea was nonsense, but that the attempt would fail to have any measurable effects.

Tob

What did you think about the second part, about this report, that plainly shows that most of the LL talking points are bogus, being dropped down the old memory hole?

All Miller had to do was go... (Below threshold)
-S-:

All Miller had to do was go to jail. Meaning, she's now out of the loop of questioning -- for her secondary issue of opting to go to jail rather than "reveal...sources," which effectively gets her a pass by way of free room and board paid at taxpayer expense and the certainty afterward of a job paid for by any number of liberals eager with big bucks to reward her martyrdom and such.

She's also proving as pawn for the political espionage purposes of whomever, as yet unidentified but it's reasonably easy to guess who that'd be, among eager liberals/Democrats involved....

And, no liberal is beating the press to get coverage for the issue as to who spoke with Miller and even Cooper BEFORE they made their brief foray via their "super duper top secret" secret-decorder-rings-Q&A process.

The back story to this issue is being surprisingly NOT MENTIONED by liberals. Not like Valerie Plume's employment and where and in what area of government was a secret. But, oops, Rove didn't even know her name when he spoke with Cooper! And yet liberals are determined that, as if from beyond time and space, Rove actually revealed her name and her CIA agent identity!

This is such preposterous smearing by liberals as to give Teddy Kennedy's "my neck hurts, I lost time, I can't remember..." "explanations" a run for the, well, money.

And Bill Clinton did.not.have.sex.with.that.woman and Ted Biden wrote his own paper and Ted Kennedy never had a suspended license in Massachusetts when he can't remember abandoning a still living passenger submerged in the car he was driving and...and...Oliver Stone isn't a communist...and, and...

I can barely contain my disappointment at how destructive so many among the Left are to and about a country that is still the best there is. And how their tawdry gossip takes on such huge proportions as to merge toward destruction of other human beings who dare to have values other than the bleakness of liberalism.


washingtonpost.com
ROVE TOLD REPORTER OF PLAME'S ROLE BUT DIDN'T NAME HER, ATTORNEY SAYS
By Josh White, Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, July 11, 2005; A01


White House Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove spoke with at least one reporter about Valerie Plame's role at the CIA before she was identified as a covert agent in a newspaper column two years ago, but Rove's lawyer said yesterday that his client did not identify her by name.

Rove had a short conversation with Time magazine reporter Matthew Cooper on July 11, 2003, three days before Robert D. Novak publicly exposed Plame in a column about her husband, Joseph C. Wilson IV. Wilson had come under attack from the White House for his assertions that he found no evidence Iraq was trying to buy uranium from Niger and that he reported those findings to top administration officials. Wilson publicly accused the administration of leaking his wife's identity as a means of retaliation.

The leak of Plame's name to the news media spawned a federal grand jury investigation that has been seeking to find the origin of the disclosure. Cooper avoided jail time last week by agreeing to testify before the grand jury about conversations with his sources, while New York Times reporter Judith Miller was jailed for refusing to discuss her confidential sources.

To be considered a violation of the law, a disclosure by a government official must have been deliberate, the person doing it must have known that the CIA officer was a covert agent, and he or she must have known that the government was actively concealing the covert agent's identity.

Cooper, according to an internal Time e-mail obtained by Newsweek magazine, spoke with Rove before Novak's column was published. In the conversation, Rove gave Cooper a "big warning" that Wilson's assertions might not be entirely accurate and that it was not the director of the CIA or the vice president who sent Wilson on his trip. Rove apparently told Cooper that it was "Wilson's wife, who apparently works at the agency on [weapons of mass destruction] issues who authorized the trip," according to a story in Newsweek's July 18 issue.

Rove's conversation with Cooper could be significant because it indicates a White House official was discussing Plame prior to her being publicly named and could lead to evidence of how Novak learned her name.

Although the information is revelatory, it is still unknown whether Rove is a focus of the investigation. Rove's lawyer, Robert Luskin, has said that Special Prosecutor Patrick J. Fitzgerald has told him that Rove is not a target of the probe. Luskin said yesterday that Rove did not know Plame's name and was not actively trying to push the information into the public realm.

Instead, Luskin said, Rove discussed the matter -- under the cloak of secrecy -- with Cooper at the tail end of a conversation about a different issue. Cooper had called Rove to discuss other matters on a Friday before deadline, and the topic of Wilson came up briefly. Luskin said Cooper raised the question.

"Rove did not mention her name to Cooper," Luskin said. "This was not an effort to encourage Time to disclose her identity. What he was doing was discouraging Time from perpetuating some statements that had been made publicly and weren't true."

In particular, Rove was urging caution because then-CIA Director George J. Tenet was about to issue a statement regarding Iraq's alleged interest in African uranium and its inaccurate inclusion in President Bush's 2003 State of the Union address. Tenet took the blame for allowing a misleading paragraph into the speech, but Tenet also said that the president, vice president and other senior officials were never briefed on Wilson's report.

After the investigation into the leak began, Luskin said, Rove signed a waiver in December 2003 or January 2004 authorizing prosecutors to speak to any reporters Rove had previously engaged in discussion, which included Cooper.

"His written waiver included the world," Luskin said. "It was intended to be a global waiver. . . . He wants to make sure that the special prosecutor has everyone's evidence. That reflects someone who has nothing to hide."

Cooper had indicated he would go to jail rather than expose a confidential source, but he agreed last week to cooperate with the grand jury after getting clearance from his source to testify. Luskin said Cooper had been clear to testify all along -- because of the waiver signed 18 months ago -- but that the waiver was "reaffirmed" on Wednesday, the day of a hearing to decide whether he and Miller would go to jail.

© 2005 The Washington Post Company

And this hurt ;-) "I was pr... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

And this hurt ;-) "I was probably writing over your head, however, given your ongoing attempts to lower the informational level here to sub-troll."

I'm the only one to post a link to the select committee report and to encourage any and all to go and read it for themselves and then return and defend their talking-points.

Tob

-S-I assume you ar... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

-S-

I assume you are rereading this entire thread to see how you've wronged me.

Where were you all day yesterday when I was left to defend the honor and sanity of this thread with just a few stalwarts. We had to play 'whack a mole' with JM, have civil disagreement with not-trolls Jon H and Roberto, and deal with the slipperiest of all Democrasy_inAction. And then, had to return again today to deal with the 2nd shift of LL wankers.

I await your 'apology while proffering the cane' ;-)

Tob

"to return again today to d... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"to return again today to deal with the 2nd shift of LL wankers."

I should clarify by saying "Who have not yet arrived." I'm not refering to you, negonerv. You are not a wanker. ;-)

Tob

RE: Toby928's post (July 11... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

RE: Toby928's post (July 11, 2005 11:54 AM)

Where were you all day yesterday when I was left to defend the honor and sanity of this thread with just a few stalwarts... And then, had to return again today to deal with the 2nd shift of LL wankers.

Yes, upon review, you were busy yesterday. Frankly, I just don't have the patience to root around the weeds of this one. It appears to me to be a pipe dream of the moonbats to repeat high crimes and misdemeanors reminiscent of the Nixon administration. Dwelling on the distant past rather than presenting a plan for the future seems to be the best some people can muster. Others seek Bush's political death by a thousand cuts since they have nothing substantive to present themselves. It's a distraction and not worth the effort. Further still, to expect this to climb to a legally punishable event is probably wasted energy. I don't mind the investigation since potential abuse of authority needs to be corralled. It's just that this one, based on the reports so far and the actors making the accusations are just too untrustworthy and comical to be taken seriously. It seems more likely that this was a scheme to "get" the President that backfired more than it seems like an administration's scheme to "get" an agent.

Nothing will come of this, ultimately, though O'Donnell and cohorts will continue to beat their drums. Newsweek will continue to dig because they have that discredited GITMO-Quran story to bury and it's politically easier to attack than it is to defend. Also, they'd like to create another "DeepThroat" moment to compete with the WaPo though they are, technically, different media. I'm just kinda looking forward to the day that Judy Miller's source is revealed and it turns out to be a liberal favorite son/daughter. Her's is not a stand on principal... it's more likely a stand on self-preservation. I can't wait for the final verdict. To be sure, unless Rove gets "frogmarched", the Left will not be satisfied with Fitzgerald's conclusions.

Spot on analysis AnonymousD... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Spot on analysis AnonymousD. Although I'm not totally confident that Rove will not be in political trouble over this if the leaked (how ironic) info is correct, I just doubt there will be any legal trouble.

Plus, I saw you in here yesterday doing yeoman's labor shoveling up the detritus left by various trollish elements.

Thanks
Tob

I have grown weary awaiting... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

I have grown weary awaiting the return of minus ess minus, either to apologise for his calumny or to reassert his slur with the 'lie direct'. Perhaps, having cast his stinkbomb, he has moved on to more fruitful threads, whose happy inhabitants do not yet know his black heart. False friend, unfaithful ally. bane of the faithful, we will meet again!

Adieu

Tob

The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on; nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.
-- The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

I'm a liberal who would lik... (Below threshold)
Tiger:

I'm a liberal who would like nothing better than to see Karl Rove get in as much trouble as possible. That said, I think the treason talk is a bit overheated. I am convinced, however, that he engaged in very underhanded dealing in order to discredit Wilson. I have seen many hilarious comments on the thread, but the winner has to be a reference to Rove as an ethical person. This about a man who revels in his reputation as the Dark Prince of politics. The really awful smears he pepetuated against McCain in South Carolina are just one example of his being willing to do whatever it takes to win elections.

That said, what I find truly hilarious is the recurring characterization of liberals as "moonbats" on this thread. It's a little hard to take that seriously from a group that claims that Wilson outed his wife intentionally so he could blame Bush; that Watergate was was actually a Democratic party operation; that no one on the Washington party cicuit could possibly have known Plame and Wilson without knowing that she was with the CIA; that George Soros gives liberal posters our marching orders; that Wilson had no qualifications whatsoever for being sent to Africa, despite having served as an Ambassador to an African country and having extensive contacts there; that Rove didn't even know Valerie Plame's name, backed up by the irrefutable proof that his lawyer said so; that Plame had Wilson sent to Africa in order to get a payment for a house; that Plame outed herself by revealing to her husband that she worked for the CIA (besides the fact that it's not particularly outrageous for a wife to tell her husband that, did it occur to anyone that having been an ambassador, he may well have the requisite security clearance to be let in on that little secret?); that anyone mentioning Rove and treason in the same post is part of a vast conspiracy to control the search engines (I thought you guys scoffed at vast conspiracies?); that Judith Miller is a darling of the left, when she is one well-known as a conservative who's reporting on WMDs is considered by the left to have played a major role in Bush's false information push in the run-up to the Iraq war; I could go on but I'm sure you're getting tired of reading this.

I realize that not every rightie posting here believes all this stuff (Toby, in particular, seems quite reasonable) but there's certainly enough of this nonsense to make it clear that neither side has cornered the market on nuttiness.

That said, one assertion made here has picqued my interest. I honestly had not heard that the Italian Niger report had now been tied to the French. Although I am prepared to find that this is a wild assertion, I don't claim to know everything. Is there a link to a credible site where that was established? This isn't a challenge, I just had had never heard that before.

Carry on.

I'm a liberal who would lik... (Below threshold)
Chris:

I'm a liberal who would like nothing better than to see Karl Rove get in as much trouble as possible. That said, I think the treason talk is a bit overheated. I am convinced, however, that he engaged in very underhanded dealing in order to discredit Wilson. I have seen many hilarious comments on the thread, but the winner has to be a reference to Rove as an ethical person. This about a man who revels in his reputation as the Dark Prince of politics. The really awful smears he pepetuated against McCain in South Carolina are just one example of his being willing to do whatever it takes to win elections.

That said, what I find truly hilarious is the recurring characterization of liberals as "moonbats" on this thread. It's a little hard to take that seriously from a group that claims that Wilson outed his wife intentionally so he could blame Bush; that Watergate was was actually a Democratic party operation; that no one on the Washington party cicuit could possibly have known Plame and Wilson without knowing that she was with the CIA; that George Soros gives liberal posters our marching orders; that Wilson had no qualifications whatsoever for being sent to Africa, despite having served as an Ambassador to an African country and having extensive contacts there; that Rove didn't even know Valerie Plame's name, backed up by the irrefutable proof that his lawyer said so; that Plame had Wilson sent to Africa in order to get a payment for a house; that Plame outed herself by revealing to her husband that she worked for the CIA (besides the fact that it's not particularly outrageous for a wife to tell her husband that, did it occur to anyone that having been an ambassador, he may well have the requisite security clearance to be let in on that little secret?); that anyone mentioning Rove and treason in the same post is part of a vast conspiracy to control the search engines (I thought you guys scoffed at vast conspiracies?); that Judith Miller is a darling of the left, when she is one well-known as a conservative who's reporting on WMDs is considered by the left to have played a major role in Bush's false information push in the run-up to the Iraq war; I could go on but I'm sure you're getting tired of reading this.

I realize that not every rightie posting here believes all this stuff (Toby, in particular, seems quite reasonable) but there's certainly enough of this nonsense to make it clear that neither side has cornered the market on nuttiness.

That said, one assertion made here has picqued my interest. I honestly had not heard that the Italian Niger report had now been tied to the French. Although I am prepared to find that this is a wild assertion, I don't claim to know everything. Is there a link to a credible site where that was established? This isn't a challenge, I just had had never heard that before.

Carry on.

Sorry, I posted under a nic... (Below threshold)
Chris:

Sorry, I posted under a nickname then decided to use my real name. It wasn't clear that it had already been posted or I wouldn't have bothered. Feel free to delete either one.

you guys are too hard on li... (Below threshold)
roberto:

you guys are too hard on liberals, plus you overgeneralize. not all liberals are candyass "oh we have to understand their feelings" approach to handing terrorists. I think we should kick their butts and ask questions later. The terrorists, that is.

Look at it this way. Here I am a liberal. My mother is a devout Republican and my sister -- well, she's a reactionary ultra-conservative Christian wacko. A nice wacko, but a wacko. My aunt -- sheesh anytime I mention anything approaching democratic concepts, she just laughs. She really doesn't know nor care. She would vote for Hitler if he was a Republican.

Given this, all of us think Tom DeLay is bad news. I think Rove is a brilliant tactician. My sister probably never heard of him. My mother -- well, she probably doesn't care what he's done and thinks Wilson is cute.

So S- -- don't get so down on liberals. Believe it or not, they run the gamut of brilliant tacticians to stupid idiots -- just like conservatives do. And some actually disagree with each other...

Toby, for instance. I think he's ok. He actually listens and responds in a respectful way to something stupid I might say. he might say it slowly so even I can understand, but....

Oh. I got off the subject. Sorry.

Twice called reasonable by ... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Twice called reasonable by liberals !?! Perhaps I need to strop my hard edge a bit more. ;-) But thanks anyway Chris and roberto. Its sad to get more appreciation from ones opponents that from someone who should be an ally. (Yeah, talking about you minus ess minus; still waiting for your apology). While we're all in such good kumbya spirits I'd like to ask a question of those leftwards who might still be reading this dying thread. Have you read, previous or as a result of following my above posted link, the select committee report on Iraq. What did you think of section II Niger? Does that not shoot down many of the talking points being circulated on leftism sites about Amb. Wilson and his trip to Niger?

Tob

Toby,I see you've ... (Below threshold)
jYt:

Toby,

I see you've met with -S-'s disapproval. She's so quick to judge what anyone says harshly, even when she has no idea what they're talking about. She's so interested in getting her own posts in, she can't be bothered to read and understand the postings of others. If you read several WizBang comment sections, you'll be certain to see this played out over and over and over again with her. In calling you "stupid" and a "sub-troll" when you actually provided useful information, I think should be subjected to her own comments:

Quoting -S-, from an earlier thread, "I read your earlier determined aggression on a personal level, this thread, involving others and now you're including me in your target practice...It only convinces others, your didactics and nasties to and about what others try to share here, that you're not a nice person, not worth much time even trying to interact with. I think that also explains why you're so reliant upon copying and pasting "court records" and such."

So, I guess judging -S- by her own standards of personal agression, she's "not a very nice person, not worth much time even trying to interact with." Of course, she is consistent on hating people that link to actual, relevant information, which was my previous crime with her as well. She's only fond of people spouting uninformed opinions that agree with her 100%.

Good luck getting that apology.

Joe

P.S. Can you make heads or tails of what -S- is saying about Judith Miller? "She's going to jail to protect her own misbehavior"? What is that supposed to mean?

minus ess minus is a woman ... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

minus ess minus is a woman !?! I would not of thought a lady capable of such a vehement response. I'm baffled now as to how to preceed in my vendetta. I goes suggesting that she 'load smooth and single' is now out of the question as are the many cutting descriptions I've worked up. I guess I will just have to let it go, although a lady should be able to apologise as well as a man.

Tob

should read "I guess sugges... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

should read "I guess suggesting that she 'load smooth and single' is now out of the question"

Damn fat fingers.

Tob

Actually as I think of it, ... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Actually as I think of it, the phrase is "charge smooth and single". You'ld thing an old southerner like me would get it right.

Tob

It's a pity -S- misread Tob... (Below threshold)
Peacemaker:

It's a pity -S- misread Toby's great posts and took the meme thing personally. Her observations of trolls repeating the same talking points all over the net are true. She's usually one of the stalwarts here, helped design Wizbang's competition logo last year.

AnonymousD above wrote "death by a thousand cuts" is the plan of attack on Bush. Agreed. If anyone thought CBSgate had a lot of deceptions to uncover, this Plame thing has ten times more, over a longer period. While those truly interested in uncovering truth are still quietly reading up on it (Thanks, Toby, for the links to the reports), the left jumps in with data meant to distract not only the public, but also the President.

Peacemaker, your handle is ... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Peacemaker, your handle is well chosen. Thank you. I will, of course, let the matter drop. No gentleman fights with a lady under any circumstance.

Tob

And if any of you guys thin... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

And if any of you guys think this means that I'm going soft, just try me! I WILL go sub-troll! I'll hunt you down like dogs from one thread to another until you apologise or I'm banned, and then I'll reincarnate to hunt somemore! I'll defame you and all your people back to the beginning of time! I'll use such cunning jibes and flamboyant curses that you'll wear out your dictionaries just figuring out whether to be insulted. Be warned! The old hound still bites! grrrrr! ;-)

Tob

Adieu (see, I speak Surrender Monkey!)

RE: Tiger's/Chris's post (J... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

RE: Tiger's/Chris's post (July 11, 2005 04:45 PM)

...what I find truly hilarious is the recurring characterization of liberals as "moonbats" on this thread...


I'll just chime in for one small point here. The "moonbat" pejorative is to mock, well, moonbats. Although routinely applied to liberals, it can apply to members of any political persuasion. Most of the time (and practically every time in my use of it for the Left), it is used to ridicule the farthest fringes and not a general synonym for Democrat. I'll provide some examples.

The red-meat serving and current DNC chairman (H. Dean) at a fundraising dinner - moonbat, well, moonbat tendencies. He's not a full-on moonbat when typing email solicitations to RedStaters he wants to tap for money and understanding.

Lawrence O'Donnell "debating" a Swift Boat Vet - Moonbat. Note the use of a capital 'M" which denotes special commendation - the equivalent of a moonbat merit badge for battiness above and beyond the call of duty.

George Soros - a well heeled M¢¢nbat. Note again the merit badge and the subtler, yet intrinsically more powerful, coin trinkets - it indicates a moonbat with more money than sense and a popular source of funding for even the less moonbatty.

Joe Lieberman and Harold Ford - NOT moonbats and worthy of consideration. I mean, really, what are they doing here tarnishing this fine list?

"sunglove" - a very pernicious species indeed. Hillary Clinton heads this variety. Note the clever use of inocuous word-association to conceal the title - a reflection of its inherent attempt to mask natural "moonbattish" behavior. Some systematicists have suggested altering the nomenclature to "moonzebra" to reflect the changing of stripes, but it has not yet gained acceptance into general industry vocabulary. I believe the naming convention will stand until the next policy-making gathering of the Young Republicans of Berkeley in the summer of '06 where they will readdress the issue.

I hope I have provided useful guidance on the use of this word and its application to the political Left. It is by no means comprehensive, but it does touch on the existence of finer nuances in its application. And don't think we "wingnuts" don't appreciate nuance. Well, "appreciate" may not be the operative word, but I digress.

LOL!! I have not yet recei... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

LOL!! I have not yet received my talking-points on the use of sunglove, 1-of-12, oops, I mean AnonymousD, but since my VRWC cell number is 378879 perhaps it is delayed or even not allowed at my level of initiation.

Toby 8-of-378879

"Every thing is going according to plan. Just play along Toby, only 378878 levels to rise until its all mine and then ... seats at the 50 yard line"

RE: Toby928's post (July 11... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

RE: Toby928's post (July 11, 2005 08:38 PM)

;)

I have not yet received my talking-points on the use of sunglove, ******* [redacted], oops, I mean AnonymousD, but since my VRWC cell number is ****** [redacted] perhaps it is delayed or even not allowed at my level of initiation.

**************** [redacted]
...


Let me scan the Minutes of the spring session. Ahh, yes, now I remember more clearly.

Yes, the "sunglove" directive (VRWC Petition 20040704/beta-alpha-tau heretofore defined as "Amendment to Reconsider Naming Conventions for Person's Named Clinton and Previously Exposed as Lunar Mammals") has both protagonists and antagonists. The last meeting was frought with consternation and many erasers were thrown. Fortunately, casualties were light but the issue was tabled for the rest of the conference. A non-binding referendum was drafted and passed to ensure that "The Amendment" be redrawn at the next BiCoastal Regional Conference on Political Semantics to reflect universal adoption, local sensibilities, and ease of enunciation. I happened to think that the Enunciation Articles were weakest but others wanted more flexibility in applying the Sensibilities Acts of '72. Go figure.

Anyway, the meeting is on and I have it on good authority that HEY EVERYONE LOOK OVER THERE! ITS A MOONBAT! NO REALLY, LOOK! SEE ALL OF THE PROTRUDING VEINS AND POPPING EYES AND [whispers] EyHey Oby 8-of-378879Tay, hetay andshakehay ashay eenbay angedchay, Iay epeatray, hetay andshakehay ashay eenbay angedchay !ay [/whispers] I guess I was seeing things. It wasn't really a moonbat at all.

Anyway, Toby928, you should be getting your talking-points regularly because nothing precludes you from the disseminated propaganda. I'll voice your concerns at the autumn retreat and hope that number 4 is receptive to the grievance. I don't doubt he/she/it/them will move mountains to streamline our usual conduits. And about that thing I mentioned... the Wing is very serious about that considering the location of the upcoming venue. The brownshirts will frogmarch you right out of there if you don't, well... I better not say anymore. Just don't try anything foolish or you can kiss those 50 yard line tickets goodbye.

Out.

NonymousayRivelDay

You two are toooo funny :) ... (Below threshold)
BR:

You two are toooo funny :) :) Love your spunk!
Strength and sense of humor are a great combination.

Meanwhile, I've continued my quiet reading in the back of the class, but the garden needs watering. Here's what I found so far:

I've been reading data elsewhere and at JustOneMinute on this matter. Some of the Oct. 2003 threads: (PART I) and (PART II) (cursor down past green blank space) have much interesting data, even if not up to date. I remember hearing of the "French" forged docs thing long ago, before I got interested in the Plame Affair, and it's on my "to do" list for further reading. The "French connection" revelation came later than 2003, after the discussion in those threads.

In my draft timeline excerpted below, see where the "Late Summer 02" entry fits in. Oh how I love jigsaw puzzles.

Late Summer 02 – Events described in Seymour Hersh's article of 10/20/03 re forgery of Niger docs:

"…Another explanation was provided by a former senior C.I.A. officer. He had begun talking to me about the Niger papers in March,[2003] when I first wrote about the forgery, and said, “Somebody deliberately let something false get in there.” He became more forthcoming in subsequent months, eventually saying that a small group of disgruntled retired C.I.A. clandestine operators had banded together in the late summer of last year and drafted the fraudulent documents themselves...."
"The thinking, he said, was that the documents would be endorsed by Iraq hawks at the top of the Bush Administration, who would be unable to resist flaunting them at a press conference or an interagency government meeting. They would then look foolish when intelligence officials pointed out that they were obvious fakes. But the tactic backfired, he said, when the papers won widespread acceptance within the Administration. 'It got out of control.' ”>


My timeline didn't go throu... (Below threshold)
BR:

My timeline didn't go through, so I've posted it in parts in the latest thread of 7/11/05.

Here's a list of wizbang threads since the Plame Affair began reheating up on 7/2/05:

Rove The Source Of The Plame Leak? 7/2/05
Rove Article Is Out 7/3/05
Rove=Bin Laden 7/5/05
O'Donnell Still Trying To Sell "Rove Leaked Plame 7/5/05
O'Donnell Has Three Questions For Rove 7/5/05

List cont'd:<a href=... (Below threshold) ed,"If so then ... (Below threshold)
jYt:

ed,

"If so then what we're looking at is Plame setting up a contract for her husband, so they could make the payment on a house or something. Which is frankly far more likely than any other possible scenario."

Did I miss something, or was this pulled directly from your ass? I believe that Rob was getting down on the media for convicting Rove without a trial. You apparently want to convict Plame and Wilson without anything at all, even a hint of suspicion from any other source of this wrongdoing. Perhaps you were simply being facetious, here. With your other overblown rhetoric, it's hard to tell.

For example:
Rove talked to Cooper the SAME F-ING DAY OF Novak's ARTICLE. There is every possibility that Rove did NOT talk to Cooper until AFTER the article had been published at 11 am.
Christ will you lefties stop mucking up the facts?

from -S-'s earlier Washington Post article,
"Rove had a short conversation with Time magazine reporter Matthew Cooper on July 11, 2003, three days before Robert D. Novak publicly exposed Plame in a column about her husband, Joseph C. Wilson IV."

Perhaps it is you who is unaware of the facts, ed. Have you considered this possibility? Have you at least considered checking the facts before flying off the handle with your response? If so, next time, try harder.

Actually, although I don't ... (Below threshold)
Chris:

Actually, although I don't think Ed covers himself in glory with his wild-eyed posts, I have read that Novak's column was sent to his syndicate on July 11, but not published until July 14. It is possible that someone as connected as Rove had access to the column before publication, including getting it directly from Novak, who's a notorious Republican butt boy.

Just trying to be fair, as much as it kills me.

Don't you love it when the ... (Below threshold)
Jim:

Don't you love it when the moonbats on the Left start harping on National Security? Wow, they are so worried about Naaaaational Seeeeecurity. Give me a break.

Chris,I find your ... (Below threshold)
jYt:

Chris,

I find your attempted defense of Ed charming, if misguided.

Perhaps you read this quote from Ed, "There is every possibility that Rove did not talk to Cooper until AFTER the article had been published at 11 am" differently than I do or have a different concept of what the word, "published," means.

Of course, you say that maybe Rove had the column before publication, so it does seem that we can agree on the meaning of the term.

If Ed is attempting such a nuanced argument as this, then he certainly shouldn't be surprised when people say, "Finally, Rove had said that he did not discuss this issue to a reporter prior to Bob Novak's report." He should explain that he's asserting, with no evidence to back him up except speculation, that Rove read Novak's report before it was publicly available AND that Rove wasn't Novak's original source. I'm asserting, based on the wording of his post, and his previous wild-eyed proclivities, that he's simply clueless about the facts.

Fair enough?

jYtActually, I was... (Below threshold)
Chris:

jYt

Actually, I wasn't so much responding to Ed's specific wording as to the fact that he was referencing a point that I've already seen raised by more than one person defending Rove, namely that we can't dismiss out of hand the possibility that Rove will claim that he did, indeed learn about Plame's status from Novak's column, and that he did have access to it prior to his conversation with Cooper. Imprecise use of the word publish by me or Ed or anyone else doesn't change that.

OK, I've spent way to much time defending one of Rove's talking points. I'm starting to get the creeps.

Chris,Ah, but I wa... (Below threshold)
jYt:

Chris,

Ah, but I was responding to Ed's specific wording, including "published" and "facts". So, we both totally agree that Ed has no idea what he's talking about. He probably heard the same theory you did, but internalized it incorrectly as when the article was published instead of written, morphing the theory into a fact as well, at the same time. Then he gets mad at people who don't have the same bizarre, incorrect understanding that he does of what happened.

Thanks for helping me understand how he got to his misconceptions. It's an ugly sight inside the mind of Ed.

Jim, I'VE BEEN involved wit... (Below threshold)
roberto:

Jim, I'VE BEEN involved with National Security. Some of us leaning to the left side of the do that, you know. Sheesh. Talk about typecasting! That's like saying that all conservatives are pasty white pudgy overweight male honkies.

Overgeneralization hints of stupidity, Plato once said.

Or was it Irma Bombeck? Can't remember.

What we do know: Rove did t... (Below threshold)
negonerv:

What we do know: Rove did tell cooper enough to convey that Wilson's wife worked for the cia (this has been stated by Roves own lawyer). A couple of years ago when the president was asked if he would fire anyone who may have leaked, he said yes (someone on fox had the nerve to say the president never said the word "Fire". Thats right. The reporter who asked the question said the word "Fire" and the president said "yes". Fox is the most lying network ever devised...). Scott McClelland at one point two years ago said Rove had no part in it and if anyone in the whitehouse was involved they would be fired. Which is why the reporters are annoying the crap out of him this week. So, Rove may find a way to get out of this on a technicallity but what we know now at least shows him being involved. And that liar Melman should stop with his talking point lies saying Rove had nothing to do with it.

Rove identified a covert CI... (Below threshold)
negonerv:

Rove identified a covert CIA agent to a reporter. Matt Cooper's email records show Rove identified Valerie Plame as “Wilson’s wife,”. How many wives does he have? Any fool could yahoo that and get her name. What he did is a violation of at least the spirit of the law from section 421 of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act. It says "any information identifying [a] covert agent" is illegal. His insisting strict confidentiality in the discussion also shows that he knew exactly what he was doing and that his actions were wrong.

Also, Bush should hold up to his promise of firing anyone involved in the case or Rove should hurry up and resign. He never said the person had to be indicted or convicted. You know some thought Bush would have finally stated his support of Rove yesterday when he took some questions from the press. It did not happen.

One aside: I wonder how many millions of our tax money was spent on this Brewster-Jennings cia front company which Plame worked through to get info on WMD, only to have it blown out of the water over this petty vindictive act? Also, how much would it cost to have to start up a whole new operation under a different name with new people? The individuals involved in this leak should pay it back.

lame duck prez? how about m... (Below threshold)

lame duck prez? how about mortally wounded?! yes quite right and his zionist trash as well. there will be hell to pay for our men and women in uniform who have died for israeli lies!!!!!!!!




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