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You'll have to speak up, I'm liberal

I have absolutely no use nor respect for Michael Savage, but one thing he says a lot (it's kind of hard to avoid people quoting him) is that "liberalism is a mental disorder." I dunno if I'd go quite that far, but I think I've started to notice that certain strains of liberalism do seem to have a poor medical effect.

In particular, on their hearing. They hear certain things, but for some reason, it comes out another way. Here are a few examples:

1) Bush says about the Plame leak: If any laws have been broken, appropriate measures will be taken.

Translation: As soon as there's the slightest evidence that Rove might've been even tangentially involved in this, I'll fire his ass. But for heaven's sake NOBODY go to the horse's mouth -- Novak -- and find out the TRUTH!

2) Bush says we have evidence that Saddam is pursuing weapons of mass destruction, and he is resisting our attempts to make sure he isn't -- in clear violation of the terms of the 1991 ceasefire.

Translation: Saddam's got nukes! He's gonna use 'em!

3) Bush says Iraq clearly isn't an imminent threat, but we don't have the luxury of waiting for him to pose one -- he has to be dealt with BEFORE he progresses that far.

Translation: Saddam's got the nukes on a five-minute countdown! We gotta hit him NOW before he hits us!

4) Ambassador Joseph Wilson's report on his trip to Niger clearly supports other evidence that Saddam was looking to obtain uranium -- despite his frequent public comments to the contrary.

Translation: Wilson found no proof Saddam was trying to get WMDs, and he's being crucified for being honest!

I think it's time for some serious federal funding into investigating this spreading disorder. It's already showing signs of becoming an epidemic.


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Comments (35)

And leftists are usually pr... (Below threshold)
joe:

And leftists are usually proud and self-satisfied when they say those things, too. Never mind the actual quotes.

"I think it's time for some... (Below threshold)
arb:

"I think it's time for some serious federal funding into investigating this spreading disorder. It's already showing signs of becoming an epidemic."

Gets under your skin, does it? Oh, wait, that's epidermal.

Jay Tea--Gotta dis... (Below threshold)
Jesse:

Jay Tea--

Gotta disagree with you on point #1. The White House has said much more than "appropriate measures will be taken":

McClellan, Sept 29, 2003: "If anyone in this administration was involved in it [the leaking of Plame's identity], they would no longer be in this administration."

There are plenty of others -- but based on this one quote, it's pretty cut-and-dried what they said about firing.

[And please, no one go on about how Rove didn't leak Plame's name, or how she wasn't covert. Saying she's with the CIA, which is what Rove did, is leaking her identity. It might not have been illegal, but it is still relevant to the above quote.]

We are not afraid.... (Below threshold)
earth:

We are not afraid.

trans: I am a hegemonistic, racist, tyranical, right wing zealot that wants to nuke the brown skinned people back to the stone age for Jesus while driving my suburban around my gated community with Hillary Clintons' head skewered on the antenna that is currently picking up Rush Limbaugh.

You don't know that Wilson ... (Below threshold)
Sean:

You don't know that Wilson lied about his trip to Niger? What rock have you been living under? And just so you know, in order for Rove to have violated the law he had to knowingly disclose the identity of an undercover agent for the purpose of harming that agent. All Rove did was inform a reporter that Wilson was not sent on his "fact" finding trip by the President of the Secretary of State, but rather by his wife. How could his wife have that kind of pull? Easy, she works for the CIA. There are lots of non-covert jobs at the CIA. If Rove did not know who Wilson's wife was, that she was undercover, and did not name her in order to harm her, well then no laws have been violated.

Prove those elements of the crime and I'll hand you the rope to hang him.

Ha, Jay Tea, there's proof ... (Below threshold)
-S-:

Ha, Jay Tea, there's proof of your premise (and that by Michael Savage) right here on the thread, just a step or so down from the top in comments...

Rove said: "...his wife... (arranged Wilson's trip to Niger)..."

No mention or reference of any agent-ing, no "CIA super duper agent (nor any agent nor CIA nor any permutation of any of that) comments, just a statement that Wilson's wife arranged Wilson's trip to Niger.

Which pointed out: Wilson lied about his own means (having said he'd been sent by V.P. Cheney, while Cheney confirmed he didn't)...among other distortions by Wilson.

If there's any indication to my view as to espionage, it's by Wilson and probably also his "wife."

Who wasn't named. Whose "secret agent" affiliation wasn't even mentioned by Rove who didn't even know her name. Nor did he even mention her employment other than what was publicly revealed.

Not like Cooper's wife was hiding in her employment since she was seen daily coming and going from a federal office, posing for photographs in an international magazine, meeting and greeting in photographs with then-President Clinton and more.

This is what you get when you get John Kerry's version of revolution combined with MoveOn.org's concept of having taken back a party they say they bought and paid for (and are now running [farther] round as proprietor).

John Kerry smells treason because he's very familiar with the scent and the labor that produces it.

Investigate Plame, Wilson, and probably Kerry and MoveOn.org and you'll find what you need to know about espionage.

Jesse:"And please,... (Below threshold)
Cousin Dave:

Jesse:

"And please, no one go on about how Rove didn't leak Plame's name, or how she wasn't covert. Saying she's with the CIA, which is what Rove did, is leaking her identity."

1. Rove didn't leak Plame's name.
2. She wasn't covert.

You just proved Jay's point.

Actually, I think there nee... (Below threshold)

Actually, I think there needs to be a distinction drawn between Liberals and Lefties. Liberals are Center-Left, Lefties are 300 miles west of that.

Cousin Dave --You'... (Below threshold)
Jesse:

Cousin Dave --

You've got to be kidding me. I openly admitted your two points -- and I suspect Rove did nothing illegal -- but my point was this: saying "His wife works for the CIA" is still leaking her identity. Everyone knew his wife was Valerie Plame. That she was CIA was not known. So it's not illegal, but it still applies to McClellan's comment that "anyone involved in it will no longer be in this administration".

"Everyone knew his wife was... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

"Everyone knew his wife was Valerie Plame. That she was CIA was not known."

Not known?
Then how did so many in the D.C. social scene know this all along?

You just proved Jay's point.

Let's clear up a few things... (Below threshold)
frameone:

Let's clear up a few things.

Wilson never said he was sent by Cheney to Niger. He has always said that he was sent at the behest of the CIA to check into claims that Cheney's office was pushing. I'd like someone here to post the quote where Wilson says "Dick Cheney sent me to Niger."

Second, Plame herself denies that she made the decision to send her husband. She recommended him to her bosses and they made the final decision.

Third, Iraq never sought significant quantities of uranium from Niger. The White House ultimately recanted Bush's statement in the State of the Union because there was no evidence for they claimed. Tenet wanted it out but someone, probably Cheney, kept putting it back in. Please note that on page 52 of the senate report right-wingers love to quote so selectively from we are told that: "According to the US Ambassador to Niger, 'Ambassador Wilson reached the same conclusion that the Embassy has reached that it was highly unlikely that anything between Iraq and Niger was going on."

http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/7/13/04720/9340

You guys are trying again like mad to smear Wilson, essentially repeating the same tactics that got Rove in hot water in the first place. Wise up guys. When you're in a hole stop digging. Or at the very least, stop spinning.

"Who wasn't named. Whose "s... (Below threshold)
frameone:

"Who wasn't named. Whose "secret agent" affiliation wasn't even mentioned by Rove who didn't even know her name. Nor did he even mention her employment other than what was publicly revealed.

Not like Cooper's wife was hiding in her employment since she was seen daily coming and going from a federal office, posing for photographs in an international magazine, meeting and greeting in photographs with then-President Clinton and more."

Geez, S you don't even know who you're talking about anymore. Cooper's wife? Uh? And BTW, the idea that Plame was seen in public (Gosh!) with people (Golly!) means absolutely nothing. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but does being a covert CIA operative mean you have to live a basement somehere never to see the light of day? That whole second paragraph makes no sense whatsoever.

Neither, does the first. Rove told Cooper that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA before the Novak column was published. It was not public knowledge that she worked for the CIA (remember, Novak's column also exposed the CIA front company, and all its employees, that Plame did list as her employer). The fact that Rove didn't use Plame's name or mention her specific job or classification is, as pointed out above, utterly irrelevent. He was not intending the clear up mistakes Cooper's story as the mistakes he was supposedly trying to clear up -- that Wilson said Cheney sent him to Niger -- Wilson never said in the first place, as, again, noted above. Talk about being deliberately deaf to information you don't want to hear.

Actually it is fairly easy ... (Below threshold)
daweb:

Actually it is fairly easy to call Wilson an A1 Liar. He is. He stated in numerous public statements AND his book that his wife had NOTHING to do with his being sent to Niger. turns out she Did. this is just ONE example. Secondly, she was NEVER in danger, she had not been 'covert' in 9 years! Give it up and move forward.

Sharp...Marble: only a li... (Below threshold)
-S-:

Sharp...Marble: only a liberal would opine that "Liberals are Center-Left" - I sense~a Hillary Clinton talking point~.

If a person's socio-politico environment is immersed in liberalism, it's reasonable to conclude that most involved are going to assume variations are "extreme" (not that you wrote that they are, just saying).

I find it most interesting that liberalism is the most oppressive of political perspectives going -- dare to suggest conservative, moderation even, and you get the liberal socio-politico abuse response. The word, "suppressive" (because liberalism is that) is more appropriate, not that I'm a Scientologist, because I'm not, but about that word, this context, it's appropriate in description of a socio-politico liberal process and set of beliefs.

Then how did so many in ... (Below threshold)
Jesse:

Then how did so many in the D.C. social scene know this all along?

Les:

Okay, I didn't know that, and I'll believe you if I see some evidence. Let's get some names -- who beforehand knew about Plame in the CIA? How did they know? Why, then, did Cooper/Novak deem it newsworthy?

I'm not sure what all this "you're just proving Jay's point" means. How by making some comments about holding the White House accountable am I an uncurable leftist? I think questions of accountability are nonpartisan.

Jesse, Andrea Mitchell said... (Below threshold)
joe:

Jesse, Andrea Mitchell said she knew of Plame/CIA.

"No. We don't have any evi... (Below threshold)

"No. We don't have any evidence of Iraq's involvement in the 911 attacks, but there is a historical relationship between Saddam and Al Queda going back to 1992"

Translation:
Saddam personally went to Baghdad Hardware and Shipping Supplies, bought a pocketful of boxcutters from Mohammed, then handed them out to the 911 hijackers who he had just met for the first time since he had always hated the idea of attacking America in the past.

"I find it most interesting... (Below threshold)
frameone:

"I find it most interesting that liberalism is the most oppressive of political perspectives going."

The MOST oppressive? Is this when you bust out the bizarre notion that National Socialism was liberal because it called itself Socialist? Is this where you conflate Stalanism and the policies of the Democratic Party? Is this where you argue that calls for tolerance and respect for all people regardless of the race, religion or creed is actually the oppression of the right to practice bigotry? Just what are you talking about? Do you feel personally oppressed? Are you unable to go about your daily life as you see fit because of liberalism? Could you point to one thing that you would like to do that you can't do because liberalism has so oppressed you?

"Jesse, Andrea Mitchell sai... (Below threshold)
frameone:

"Jesse, Andrea Mitchell said she knew of Plame/CIA."

So now Andrea Mitchell is the Right's go to person for veracity and truth in the press? Mitchell is a careerist who would say anything to make herself look smart and in the know. Please. If Plame's identity as a CIA operative wasn't breached there would be no need for an investigation. That is the first thing Fitzegerald would have checked into and indeed, the CIA itself asked him to proceed. Come one guys. You have to do better than this.

No, frameone, "you guys" ar... (Below threshold)
-S-:

No, frameone, "you guys" are "trying to smear" Karl Rove.

The issue is what Rove said and didn't say and the attack process underway that has distorted this...alleging, wrongly, that Rove "leaked" Plame's identity and agent relationship with the CIA.

He didn't. I can understand how someone MIGHT opine that Rove "revealed" Plame's "identity" because Rove referred to Plame not by name/identity but by referring to her as Wilson's "wife" -- however, the issue is whether or not Rove intentionally revealed Plame's identity as an agent of the CIA, not what people might or can assume otherwise as to possibilities of interpretations and more.

Rove didn't "leak" anything, other than to clarify to Cooper that Wilson's trip to Niger was arranged by his wife. Whether that was by his wife's superiors or associates otherwise, wasn't what Rove said, nor did it matter to the point, as per my read, as to what Rove said.

"..arranged by his wife..." says what it says: arranged by his (Wilson's) wife.

Rove never said that Wilson's wife arranged the trip by asking for department funding from her superiors or calling the neighbors and borrowing their station wagon, Rove said "arranged by his wife."

HOW that wife (Plame) "arranged" Wilson's trip to Niger is another issue altogether and was not an aspect to Rove's comments that Cooper revealed in his notes or otherwise, nor was a part of Rove's testimony about what he said and didn't say...just not an issue, or important issue, or any issue, of the entire series of events.

Wilson did make statemetns that he'd been sent to Niger by Cheney, or, rather, arranged by Cheney...when that was not true.

Rove seems to have confirmed that that was not true by pointing out that, rather, Wilson's trip "was arranged by his wife."

Which also suggests that Wilson was engaged in deceitful statements.

Wilson, being a party operative with Kerry, particulary, and now Kerry driving this "Rove resign" campaign, and Wilson's discouraging, disparaging comments on record during the months in which the War in Iraq was begun, seems hardly, by a mile, hardly immune to fault.

In fact, again, in my opinion, given Kerry's deplorable past/present as to his own political affiliations, I'd say that there's more than enough fire there between Kerry and Wilson (and Wilson's wife) to suggest a course of espionage of very huge proportions.

And yet, Kerry beats the chest about Rove. No surprise there, trying to blame the other guy...

Joe: Okay, thanks. Now, se... (Below threshold)
Jesse:

Joe: Okay, thanks. Now, setting aside for a moment that she's very much part of DC's press corps elite and not just someone in the "D.C. social scene" (Les's words)...how did she know? This is a real question, and seems like the crux of the matter. If lots of people knew, from (say) Plame and/or Wilson talking about it, it's pretty clear Rove did absolutely nothing wrong. But if she herself first heard it from Rove, or someone else in the administration, it's a bit different, right?

You all have a false assumt... (Below threshold)
Leftism = Slave Morality:

You all have a false assumtion that liberals/leftsist care for the truth. Conservatives and libertarians care about the truth because they think it is real and important (for either asthetic, religious and epistemological reasons).

Liberals/leftists only care about POWER, mostly power over YOU. The world itself (and the truth) are irrelevent.

" Is this where you argue t... (Below threshold)
Leftism = Slave Moralty:

" Is this where you argue that calls for tolerance and respect for all people regardless of the race, religion or creed"

Do you tolerate and/or respect the right to own a firearm? To operate in a free market? Private property? To call someone a name without going to jail? To keep most of your income? To support the troops without being called a "fascist" or "chickenhawk"?

"Tolerence" and "respect" - whatever.

S --"Wilson did ma... (Below threshold)
frameone:

S --

"Wilson did make statemetns that he'd been sent to Niger by Cheney, or, rather, arranged by Cheney...when that was not true."

Where? When? He never said any such thing. He has always maintained that he had no contact whatsoever with Cheney or Cheney's office but that Cheney's office had asked the CIA to look into information about Iraq and Niger. Is anyone disputing this? Is anyone disputing that Cheney's office turned to the CIA for information about Iraq and Niger? If they are, that's one thing. But Wilson never said Cheney sent him or knew him or knew that he was the guy that was being sent. It's two different things. Naturally, you try to conflate them into one thing in the above sentence to argue that Wilson lied. Well, he didn't.

It's also pretty clear that the Right has decided that "suggesting" or "recommending" someone for a job is the same thing as "deciding" on or "arranging" who should get a job. More word games. Wislon's wife recommended him for the job. We know that. If Wilson said she wasn't involved at all, welll, that's problematic. Why he would lie abotu that I don't know. But you guys are arguing that from this information Wilson's whole report can be impugned. It can't.

Also, the best the "bi-partisan" Senate hearing could say against Wilson's report is that it leaves the question of Iraq's involvement with Niger and uranium an open mystery. (Although it confirms that Wilson found no evidence of Iraq's having purchased any uraniam was the same conclusion reached by the US embassy in Niger). But that isn't what Bush said in his State of the UNion address. He didn't say, it was "still uncertain", he didn't say "may have" he said British Intelligence has learned that Sadaam Hussein sought uranium from Niger as if it was clear and unambiguous.

Okay so back to Rove. Cooper's email states that Rove told him "it was, KR said, wilson's wife, who apparently works at the agency on wmd [weapons of mass destruction] issues who authorized the trip."

Number one, who cares if Rove didn't use Plame's name? It's clear who he's talking about.
Two, he says she apparently works for the agency. Now what do you think Rove thinks a reporter is going to do with this information? Follow up on it, of course. So clearly Rove did knowingly set a reporter on Plame's case. Maybe other reporters as well. We'll see.
Third, he tells Cooper that Wilson's wife authorized" the trip. Clealry not the case. She did not "authorize" the trip. She recommended Wilson for the job. She did not "authorize" it.

My questions are these:
Where did Rove get this information? Who gave it to him and when?
Why did he feel the need to protect Cooper from publishing charges (Cheney sent Wilson to Niger) that were never made in the first place?

[Third, Iraq never sought s... (Below threshold)

[Third, Iraq never sought significant quantities of uranium from Niger. The White House ultimately recanted Bush's statement in the State of the Union because there was no evidence for they claimed. Tenet wanted it out but someone, probably Cheney, kept putting it back in. Please note that on page 52 of the senate report right-wingers love to quote so selectively from we are told that: "According to the US Ambassador to Niger, 'Ambassador Wilson reached the same conclusion that the Embassy has reached that it was highly unlikely that anything between Iraq and Niger was going on." ]

I got this one...

First, that quote is on page 42 and all it is is a reprint of a Wilson quote in the body of the report, not exactly a conclusion reached by the committee...I believe that what you have actually done there is quote something selectively. Ooops, how embarrassing!

On page 46 we see what DIA and CIA analysts thought of his report: "The analysts did, however, find it interesting that the former Nigerian Prime Minister said an Iraqi delegation had visited Niger for what he believed was to discuss uranium sales."

And page 73, Conclusion 13: "For most analysts, the information in the report lent more credibility to the original Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) reports on the uranium deal"

soooooo, who's picking cherries here?

The point is this: you can'... (Below threshold)
mark:

The point is this: you can't explain such opinions or behavior such as Joe Wilsons or John Kerry by loss of hearing. Opinions statements and actions so removed from the FACTS come from A MENTAL DISORDER. It takes a well established MENTALDISORDER to disregard historical facts and what words mean as proficiently as the modern LIBERAL.

And what were the original ... (Below threshold)
frameone:

And what were the original CIA reports on the Uranium deal? That too much was unknown for the statement to go into the State of the Union. That's why Bush ended up citing British intelligence which was itself based on falsified documents.

"The analysts did, however, find it interesting that the former Nigerian Prime Minister said an Iraqi delegation had visited Niger for what he believed was to discuss uranium sales."

But the quote cited by the Prime Minister from the Iraqi delgation was so totally vague it could have meant anyhing.

Ultimately, Wilson argued that he found no evidence of Iraqi attempts to buy yellowcake. The Senate commission basically said that Wilson's assertion was too strong and that the question still a "mystery" at best. Bush stated it as fact in the State of the Union and Wilson told his side of the story in response. The rest, in my opinion, was a calculated smear campaign to discredit Wilson. Whatever you want to say about Wilson, there is no solid, conclusive evidence that Iraq sought yellowocake from Niger. None. Zero. Zip.

"Actually, I think there ne... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"Actually, I think there needs to be a distinction drawn between Liberals and Lefties. Liberals are Center-Left, Lefties are 300 miles west of that."

I'll agree to that. My longest and best friend is a liberal, a 3rd grade teacher, as is his wife, a retired librarian. They are good people who would give you the shirt off their back. They just are infuriating politically since they don't every see the visible failure of the beliefs they espouse. arrg! They don't read too much political stuff and aren't interested in debating it. They remind me of something someone else told me when we were discussing abortion: "I'm pro-choice and I don't want to think about it!". That said it all to me, I could only bow my head and admit defeat.

Tob

[And what were the original... (Below threshold)

[And what were the original CIA reports on the Uranium deal? That too much was unknown for the statement to go into the State of the Union. That's why Bush ended up citing British intelligence which was itself based on falsified documents. ] My emphasis.

Ummm...not true, according the Senate report. Page 65: "The WINPAC Director said because the Niger information was specifically and directly tied to a foreign government service, his concern was about releasing classified information in an unclassified speech...Both the WINPAC Director and NSC Special Assistant...mutually agreed that citing the British information, which was already unclassified, was preferable to citing U.S. classified intelligence."

Where are you getting your information from? This is right in the report.

And doesn't British intelligence still stand by their 'from-Africa' stance? Last I heard they did, but maybe that's changed. Something like 'yeah, we know that document was forged, but we had other things we're relying on'.

British intel was not cente... (Below threshold)

British intel was not centered on false documents. Sorry. Lib lie.

"URANIUM FROM AFRICA
45. From our examination of the intelligence and other material on Iraqi attempts to buy uranium from Africa, we have concluded that:
a. It is accepted by all parties that Iraqi officials visited Niger in 1999.
b. The British Government had intelligence from several different sources indicating that this visit was for the purpose of acquiring uranium. Since uranium constitutes almost three-quarters of Niger’s exports, the intelligence was credible.
c. The evidence was not conclusive that Iraq actually purchased, as opposed to having sought, uranium and the British Government did not claim this.
d. The forged documents were not available to the British Government at the time its assessment was made, and so the fact of the forgery does not undermine it.
(Paragraph 503)

(British Butler Investigation into pre-war intel on Iraq-pg156 conclusions)

Re: Cheney and Wilson, etc.... (Below threshold)
arb:

Re: Cheney and Wilson, etc.

http://powerlineblog.com/archives/011019.php

frameone: don't assume tha... (Below threshold)
-S-:

frameone: don't assume that comments represent a debate because they do not, not, particularly and specifically, about this issue...which isn't debatable based upon your opinions about who/what/why/perhaps-to-infinity...

Go read the later thread about Wilson's statements about Cheney -- someone else has already provided quotes that should close down your doubts about Wilson's statements (evasive, they appear to my view, evasive enough for Wilson to say and yet deny saying what he said and left unwavered, despite his best efforts) -- because I'm not going to cut'n'paste.

I get from you a sort of fan-fiction approach to and about some sort of necessary political intrigue. I don't read anything from you except your own interpretations and opinions and it seems Karl Rove is just in the way for today's Democrats, so, chompchompchomp it goes: opinion-has-to-be-fact, you opine, again and again.

My questions are these: ... (Below threshold)
-S-:

My questions are these:
Where did Rove get this information? Who gave it to him and when? -- Why did he feel the need to protect Cooper from publishing charges (Cheney sent Wilson to Niger) that were never made in the first place?--Posted by: frameone at July 13, 2005 01:44 PM


A big guess here: maybe Judith Miller told Cooper and Cooper picked up his phone and called Karl Rove...

But, as to where Karl Rove "got" "the information" (what information is that) and when, I think it's none of anyone's business, since Rove didn't share any information with any specificity, leaving me to respect the security clearance of and by the Executive.

Rove's said that he didn't even know Wilson's wife's name when he spoke with Cooper. I think -- very likely here -- that Cooper knew Valerie Plame had special access before he spoke with Rove and that Wilson certainly wasn't going to any great lengths (nor was Plame) to ensure any top-secret-super-duper privacy as to who paid their health insurance and salaries and where they went to work most days of the year.

They were socially active as a couple, higher than usual profile in the Clinton Whitehouse and in D.C. and elsewhere and it certainly could not have been a secret to many aware individuals who the Wilson/Plame couple were affiliated with and why. However, as to Rove, the guy's not a D.C. perpetual hanger-on-er such that he didn't even make note of Plame's name, nor repeat her name since he didn't know it, and the liklihood that Cooper and Judith Miller knew who Valerie Plame worked for is high, long before they spoke with Rove about, supposedly, Plame's husband, Wilson.

I'm curious as to when issues of national security became so alarming to Democrats.

Please read the information carefully without applying a need to be on top of Republicans, and then perhaps try to imagine that liberals are being far too easily led into emotional lands by people who really don't respect you: Democrats.

Hopefully while these idiot... (Below threshold)
Jim:

Hopefully while these idiot Libs have a bug up their butts for Rove, Bush can stack the court with his judges.

Considering that this count... (Below threshold)

Considering that this country has the most liberal gun laws in the world, yes I have to agree that this type of liberalism is a mental disorder; the liberalism of conservative gun nuts!




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