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Another Liberal, Blind to Irony

We got a trackback today that I just had to follow. It was on Kevin's post about Air America ripping off a children's fund to the tune of a half a million dollars. I had to follow it just for the title: Conservatives, If You Really Care About Kids Then Start Writing About Children Issues

Considering we post fairly often about the education system in this country and other things "about children" I was interested to see why Michael Hussey was complaining. Then I saw what he considered "Children Issues."

...I have covered the L.G. story on my blog. You may remember when Jeb Bush was trying to intervene to stop L.G. from having an abortion. What was missed in the media madness was that L.G. wanted to have an abortion. This is a girl with a tremendous amount of courage.

This blind to irony liberal whines we don't write about children's issues... like abortion... which, last I looked, is the act of killing children.

Somehow Michael, it would be more believable that you cared about children if your post did not advocate killing them. But maybe that's just me.

Update: You know I posted this under "humor" because I thought it was funny the irony he missed. But after seeing Michael's retort it is now just pathetic and sad.

He still doesn't get that arguing that abortion (you know killing children) is a children's issue is quite ironic. He just doesn't see it. (He argues that if someone WANTS an abortion it is a children's issue. (hey I didn't say he made any sense))

Go read his reply, it really is priceless... but I must warn you... Watching him try to make an intellectual point is like watching a puppy run in front of a car... You see the carnage unfolding, and you'd like to stop it, but no matter how hard you hope, in the end, there is the inevitable splat.


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Comments (80)

Correct me if I'm wrong, bu... (Below threshold)
bullwinkle:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't posting about liberals stealing money earmaked for children an issue involving children? In a liberal's opinion I can see how it wouldn't be, they couldn't care less if another liberal did it, it doesn't qualify as an issue at all. Michael Hussey just proved that by not considering the post anything other than an attack on liberals. In his twisted way of thinking kids come somehwere further down the list than protecting liberals that steal from them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah... every s... (Below threshold)
s9:

Yeah, yeah, yeah... every sperm is sacred. Yawn. Jeez, don't you guys ever let up?

S9 Yeah, yeah, yeah... e... (Below threshold)
lin:

S9 Yeah, yeah, yeah... every sperm is sacred. Yawn. Jeez, don't you guys ever let up?

See, you've proven the point. You are showing your total lack of regard for unborn babies. If libs cared for children they would protect the lives of the innocent unborn.

s9,Are you really ... (Below threshold)
mesablue:

s9,

Are you really this stupid or do you just let a bunch of stupid people post under your name?

One person couldn't be that dense.

Paul, it is most definitely not just you.

Hey! I've got an idea! Why ... (Below threshold)
fatman:

Hey! I've got an idea! Why don't we all chip in and get s9's mother an abortion? (retroactive, of course) I mean, he seems so enamored of the "procedure", maybe he'd like to experience it first hand.

In the alternate timeline t... (Below threshold)
Sue Dohnim:

In the alternate timeline that s9's dad accidently created as a Time Police Officer back in 1982, s9 was aborted. Aborted by a race of Jewish Yetis out to annihiliate mankind with the help of alien Elvis and LSD zombies created from Army experiments.

Does that mean that s9 is t... (Below threshold)
fatman:

Does that mean that s9 is the son of Jean-Claude Van Damme?

Or has Sue been spending to... (Below threshold)
fatman:

Or has Sue been spending too much time in the Time Cube?

No, fatman, more like <a hr... (Below threshold)
Sue Dohnim:

No, fatman, more like Sherman, without the rugged, nerdy good looks or intellect.

fatman wrote:... (Below threshold)
Sue Dohnim:

fatman wrote:
Or has Sue been spending too much time in the Time Cube?

LOL!

good job. and good job for ... (Below threshold)
jello:

good job. and good job for keeping on top of the oil-for-food scandal as well. now figure out where the $8.8 b-b-b-billion dollars "missing" from the iraq reconstruction fund went.

Here's a liberal standard: ... (Below threshold)
moseby:

Here's a liberal standard: Why work hard when you can get a handout or steal? And what is easier than stealing from children?

Well, once the LIbEralS num... (Below threshold)

Well, once the LIbEralS numbed society to kids having kids, it was really only a matter of time before they started being OK w/kids killing kids.

NOOO s9!! All sperm is NOT ... (Below threshold)
D-Hoggs:

NOOO s9!! All sperm is NOT sacred...your's especially.

thank god the people postin... (Below threshold)
billy:

thank god the people posting here are minority extremeists. only livberal sperm is sacred. all right wing fags should be aborted.

So... Kevin is a child and ... (Below threshold)
OC Chuck:

So... Kevin is a child and he want you to write about his issues???

This thread has gotten sill... (Below threshold)

This thread has gotten silly. Sperm can't be aborted so I don't know what s9 is talking about.

Paul makes a good point that when we are talking about children's issues, can't the left think of a better thing to advocate than a young girl wanting an abortion? Wouldn't at least helping those in crisis pregnancies at least come before that?

I mean pro-life or pro-choice, in abortion there is no celebration here. There is no joy. We can all agree on that. Why must this be the number one concern of the left? For over 30 yrs abortions are as legal as ever.

We on the right are the only ones trying to make it rare.

Rightwingsparkle wri... (Below threshold)
s9:

Rightwingsparkle writes: Sperm can't be aborted so I don't know what s9 is talking about.

Did I say that sperm could be aborted? No.

You know full well what I was talking about. Don't pretend to be an idiot all of a sudden because you're caught on the wrong side of the argument.

Rightwingsparkle continues: Paul makes a good point that when we are talking about children's issues, can't the left think of a better thing to advocate than a young girl wanting an abortion?

Maybe if you actually knew what "the Left" says about children's issues— rather than the bullshit you're continually spoon-fed by the TopDownMedia™— you wouldn't have to ask stupid questions like this.

Rightwingsparkle concludes: For over 30 yrs abortions are as legal as ever. We on the right are the only ones trying to make it rare.

No and no. Almost since the very day Roe vs. Wade was decided, there has been a steady erosion of abortion rights in America— in response to persistent activism from those "on the right."

Right-wingers have consistently worked, in remarkable unity, for over thirty years toward the objective of overturning Roe v. Wade, eroding the precedent set in Griswold v. Connecticut, and generally turning back the clock on reproductive rights for women at every level of government. It is a damnable lie to deny the truth of this. What's more, it's a pointless lie— because nobody with any real power believes it.

When you frame the issue of abortion rights as an issue solely about the rights of "unborn children" to be free from "murder" at the hands of their own mothers, it sends a very clear message.

Right-wingers will never be satisfied merely with overturning Roe v. Wade. Once you are successful with that effort, you will not hesitate a single second to start working to criminalize abortion at all stages of pregnancy and maternal health circumstances in every state of the union. To deny this is to make an ass out of yourself.

How can you argue that abortion is the "murder of unborn children" and condone the legality of it under any circumstances?

You aren't trying to make it rare. You're trying to make it a capital offense. Stop talking about it as if you'd be totally satisfied if murdering children— while perfectly legal— was just something that only happened once in awhile, when it was like— you know— really necessary and all.

lin writes: If li... (Below threshold)
s9:

lin writes: If libs cared for children they would protect the lives of the innocent unborn.

Yeah? Tell it to your "lib" friends. I ain't one of 'em.

(It never ceases to amuse me that so many of the children in these comment forums seem to want to call me a "liberal" without really seeming to know what the word means. I'm no liberal, though I have several close friends who call themselves that. They wouldn't call me that, however...)

I don't even know what TopD... (Below threshold)

I don't even know what TopDownMedia is.

I never said I would be satisfied with the destruction of unborn children "once and a while."

I do want all unborn children protected. But I also realize the reality of the politics of it. My focus is and always has been helping women in crisis pregnancies.

My point was why can't that be your focus as well instead of your insisting on protecting a billion dollar industry that profits off the agony of women.

Rightwingsparkle wri... (Below threshold)
s9:

Rightwingsparkle writes: I never said I would be satisfied with the destruction of unborn children "once and a while." I do want all unborn children protected. But I also realize the reality of the politics of it.

Well, aren't you just a walking demonstration of the power of situational ethics to resolve any moral dilemma? You want children to be protected from murder, but you also "realize the reality of the politics" of criminalizing the murder of children.

Oh, that is just precious. It really is.

Rightwingsparkle continues: My focus is and always has been helping women in crisis pregnancies.

So the child murdering industry is so not your problem. Don't worry your beautiful mind about that. Somebody else will solve that problem for you— and with any luck, you won't have to be held responsible for any of the unpleasant blowback the solution might involve.

How convenient. Forgive me for not sharing your moral outlook on the subject. And you people call me a liberal...

I know its impossible to ar... (Below threshold)
KobeClan:

I know its impossible to argue with moonbats like s9 cuz they are so comfortable in their ignorance but lets give it one more try.
Roe vs. Wade treated each trimester separately. Unrestricted abortion was permitted during the 1st. Abortion during the 2nd trimester required court permission. 3rd trimester abortions were not allowed unless the LIFE of the mother was in jeopardy. Roe vs. Wade was slowly changed by judicial decree to the point where the law of the land is abortion on demand. This has resulted in post-viability abortions (PVA), that is, abortions of fully viable CHILDREN! There were 12,000 non-theraputic PVAs in 2002.
I just want to hear s9 say 12,000 murdered children is the price he is willing to pay for "reproductive freedom".

KobeClan implores: <... (Below threshold)
s9:

KobeClan implores: I just want to hear s9 say 12,000 murdered children is the price he is willing to pay for "reproductive freedom".

You're going to be disappointed.

It's not my position that fetuses are children and that abortion— even "non-theraputic [sic] PVA"— is murder, so I don't regard your 12,000 abortions per year as a "price" to be paid for reproductive rights. I view them as the exercise of reproductive rights.

You should ask Rightwingsparkle what s/he thinks about the murder of thousands of children per year by a billion dollar industry, and how the "reality of the politics" associated with it allow for a complete disregard of the moral imperative to do something about it.

I'll say it again: if you frame the debate on the premise that fetuses are unborn children and abortion is murder, then you make an ass out of yourself if you don't then demand a world-wide unconditional ban on abortion at all stages of pregnancy. If you can't bring yourself to call for such a ban, and you continue to frame the debate with such language, then you are an ass, and you deserve to be viciously mocked for it.

dear s9, Thank y... (Below threshold)
KobeClan:

dear s9,
Thank you for proving my point. I have 2 questions for you:
1) When does human life begin??
2) At what stage of human life would YOU grant legal protection to a fetus??
I await your moonbat answers with baited breath.
Hint: #1 does have an definitive answer.

KobeClan writes: ... (Below threshold)
s9:

KobeClan writes: Thank you for proving my point. I have 2 questions for you...

Oh, not this game again. Don't you have anything better to do with your time?

KobeClan queries: 1) When does human life begin??

Too late. It already began. Regardless of what you might erroneously think, anthropologists don't have a definitive answer for when human life began, but the prevailing theory is that Homo Sapiens diverged from other hominid species around 200,000 years ago.

KobeClan queries: 2) At what stage of human life would YOU grant legal protection to a fetus??

At the completion of live birth, of course.

KobeClan concludes: I await your moonbat answers with baited breath.

The word you were looking for was probably "bated" but that's okay— "baited" will do as well. Oh yeah, and using two question marks doesn't make a question any less stupid or its answers any more relevant to the discussion.

I can't believe this is what passes for intellectual discourse among the anti-abortion right wing.

Dear s9, I used ... (Below threshold)
KobeClan:

Dear s9,
I used "baited' intentionally. It worked. I caught a very large moonbat. Again, thank you for proving my point. You are a IDB (intellectually dishonest buffoon). You are comfortable with your ignorance and unwilling to answer any question that will expose your lack of reasoned thought.
The idea that human life begins at birth gives you comfort. To admit the truth would probably be more than your tiny little brain could process. In order to accept abortion on demand, an honest person has to accept the cost, thousands of dead human beings. I'd like to think some day you'll have a BFO (blinding flash of the obvious) but thats a rare occurence with moonbats.

KobeClan continues: ... (Below threshold)
s9:

KobeClan continues: I used "baited' intentionally. It worked. I caught a very large moonbat.

Uh huh. Sure you did. By the way, I'm really not a very large moonbat. Small fry, really. I don't even have my own blog. You don't catch very many moonbats, do you?

KobeClan continues: In order to accept abortion on demand, an honest person has to accept the cost, thousands of dead human beings.

Oh, if that's what you're talking about, then Jeez man— how slow can you be? I'm well aware that abortion results in dead human fetuses— amongst other detritus and consequences.

Your point? (You did say you were trying to prove one.)

Or were you just trying to deflect attention away from the fact that your political alliance will not be satisfied until abortion, at all stages of pregnancy and under any conditions, is a capital crime? Come on, KobeClan... either step up and admit that you don't really believe abortion is child murder, or tell us when you think it's really necessary and acceptable to murder children.

Remember: Thou Shall Not Murder. Or have we finally outgrown the Ten Commandments?

Extra kippersnacks for K... (Below threshold)
s9:

Extra kippersnacks for KobeClan if he can catch the verb tense error in my post above.

Dear s9, Very s... (Below threshold)
KobeClan:

Dear s9,
Very simple question. When does a human life begin??

KobeClan repeats: <i... (Below threshold)
s9:

KobeClan repeats: Very simple question. When does a human life begin??

That's a different question from the one you asked before.

When you changed the question from "when does human life begin??" to "when does a human life begin??" the semantic meaning of the question changed. By "a human life," I understand you to mean an individual personal experience. Prior to live birth, a fetus does not experience individual personality. At the completion of live birth: that's when an individual personal experience— what I understand you to mean by the phrase "a human life"— begins.

I suppose it's possible you have some other meaning of "a human life" in mind. You didn't explain yourself, so I had to make some assumptions. Forgive me if I mistook your meaning.

Now, moving back to the original topic... do you still want to avoid stepping up and explaining when and under what conditions you think murdering children is a necessary and sufficient policy.

Dear s9, Its not... (Below threshold)
KobeClan:

Dear s9,
Its not really a hard question to answer. When does human life begin? It is a hard answer to face for someone like you. You know the answer, but you are unwilling to face the consequences of your beliefs. Its easy. Just repeat after me: The deaths of millions of human beings is the price we pay for reproductive freedom. Don't be an IDB. I reccommend you look in the mirror as you say it over and over: The death of millions of human beings is the price we pay for reproductive freedom. Try it and get back to me.

Dear s9, Who care... (Below threshold)
KobeClan:

Dear s9,
Who cares what the cost is, right? Its not like human life has any value, right? So you shouldn't have any trouble dealing with the truth, right?
Just repeat over and over again: The deaths of millions of human beings is a small price to pay for reproductive freedom. You either believe it or you don't. If you believe it, be proud!

KobeClan writes: ... (Below threshold)
s9:

KobeClan writes: Just repeat over and over again: The deaths of millions of human beings is a small price to pay for reproductive freedom. You either believe it or you don't. If you believe it, be proud!

I'm not sure what you think that statement is supposed to signify, but from my perspective it isn't particularly hard to say. The phrase "human being" includes lots of wiggle room in its definition when applied to the context of the abortion debate, so it really doesn't take much out of me to say that the death of millions of "human beings" is— and pay particular attention here, because I'm going farther than you are asking me to go— a negligible "price" in the value equation associated with reproductive rights.

I can do this so easily because you aren't requiring me to equate "human beings" with individual personalities. But if you did that, then you would be undermining your own argument. Look, you're the one playing silly linguistic games here, not me. Why is it so difficult for you to say plainly what you mean?

I think I've played along with your pointless and irrelevant questions for quite long enough. If you don't answer the question I put to you in return for the answers I've given here to yours, I'm going to decide that you're unable to discuss the issue of abortion rights seriously.

Either step up and admit that you don't really believe abortion is child murder, or tell us when you think it's really necessary and reasonable to murder children.

Dear s9, Thank you a... (Below threshold)
KobeClan:

Dear s9,
Thank you again for proving my point. The answer to question #1 is, of course, "at conception".
There is no single, correct answer to #2, since it is a question of opinion, not fact.
You might want to rethink your answer,though. Childbirth includes both the cutting of the cord and the delivery of the placenta. Under your answer, a legal abortion could be performed after the fetus has been completely removed from his mother's body. Thats probably not what you meant, but words do mean things.
I do have a third question. Is your soul really so dank and dark a place as your answer to #2 would tend to indicate? Just asking.
BTW, if you do believe in the concept of the human soul, when did you acquire one? If you don't believe in the human soul, than I think I know why you believe post-viability abortions are OK.

KobeClan writes: ... (Below threshold)
s9:

KobeClan writes: Under your answer, a legal abortion could be performed after the fetus has been completely removed from his mother's body.

Wrong. Placenta and umbilical cord tissue do not possess any capacity for experience of individual human personality.

KobeClan queries: BTW, if you do believe in the concept of the human soul, when did you acquire one?

How can I tell whether I even have one or not?

Look. This is getting really tedious. I keep answering your questions, but instead of answering mine in return, you keep posing new ones that have nothing to do with the topic.

You do remember the topic, yes? The topic was started because Paul remarked in the original post that— last he checked— abortion was the murder of children. I mocked him for his ridiculous "every sperm is sacred" nonsense, and cavalry of defenders came out to call me the extremist.

Apparently, a whole bunch of Wizbang! readers do not really believe that conservatives want to overturn Roe v. Wade and unconditionally make abortion at all stages of pregnancy grounds for a murder charge. I'm here to challenge that stupid stupid stupid belief. It's wrong in ways that only people who believe the physical reality of the Devil can understand.

Look, you're one of these people who thinks that "a human life," i.e. an individual experience of personality, begins at some miraculous point in time called "conception"— which you can't define with any accuracy— yet you can't bring yourself to admit you want abortion at all stages of pregnancy everywhere in the world made into grounds for a murder charge?

What the fsck is wrong with you people?

Dear s9,This thread ... (Below threshold)
KobeClan:

Dear s9,
This thread between you and me actually started when you made the false statement that McChimpBushHitler has been responsible for the erosion of abortion rights as granted by Roe vs. Wade. I correctly pointed out that abortion rights have slowly expanded to what we have today, abortion on demand throughout all 40 weeks of pregnancy. I also pointed out that this has resulted in 12,000 post-viability abortions a year.

You responded by calling me an ass.

It is a scientific fact that a human life begins at conception. Deal with it.

In the deep crevices of your brain you know the truth abort abortion. Abortion is the termination of human life. No amount of mental masturbation on your part can alter reality.

So, you still don't have th... (Below threshold)
s9:

So, you still don't have the spine to stand up and say what you really mean. Okay, that's fine. Don't expect me to care what you say if you can't be bothered to mean it.

Dear s9,If you nee... (Below threshold)
KobeClan:

Dear s9,

If you need an example of mental masturbation, try "a human life=an individual experience of personality".

I'll give you credit for one thing, you sure must have some great orgasms!

KobeClan writes: ... (Below threshold)
s9:

KobeClan writes: If you need an example of mental masturbation...

Did you have anything pragmatic to add to the discourse on this topic, or is this just going to be a straight-up circle-jerk from here forward?

Dear s9,Actually, ... (Below threshold)
KobeClan:

Dear s9,

Actually, I believe you owe an apology to Wizbang and its readers for your mischaracterization of the "right wing" eroding the abortion rights granted by Roe vs. Wade. After that maybe we can have an intelligent discussion of abortion. There is common ground if you desire to explore same.

One last question. If you were planning on an around-the-world cruise and then read that a federal judge had ruled the world was flat, would you cancel your trip??

KobeClan writes: ... (Below threshold)
s9:

KobeClan writes: One last question...

What makes you think I should answer another pointless question of yours when you won't answer the one question I put to you?

Dear s9,What was y... (Below threshold)
KobeClan:

Dear s9,

What was your "one question"?? I thought I saw many questions, all rhetorical. Restate and I will try to answer.

"I correctly pointed out... (Below threshold)
T.J.:

"I correctly pointed out that abortion rights have slowly expanded to what we have today, abortion on demand throughout all 40 weeks of pregnancy."

http://www.guttmacher.org/statecenter/spibs/spib_RPA.pdf

Just had to clear that up.

Dear T.J.Cleared i... (Below threshold)
KobeClan:

Dear T.J.

Cleared it up how?? If you're 39 weeks pregnant I can arrange for you to have an abortion within 72 hours. Might have to travel to another state, but the airfare will be a lot cheaper than the surgical procedure. In 2001 there were 12000 non-therapeutic PVAs performed with 27 documented after 36 weeks and dozens of others unconfirmed. This is actually an insignificant number compared to the total number of abortions.

KobeClan writes: ... (Below threshold)
s9:

KobeClan writes: What was your "one question"??

Still can't bring yourself to answer it, can you? You have to pretend I didn't clearly state it three fscking times for you. Jeebus, that's pathetic.

Dear s9,Like I sai... (Below threshold)
KobeClan:

Dear s9,

Like I said, you asked many questions. Ask and I shall answer.


According to that pdf, post... (Below threshold)
T.J.:

According to that pdf, post-viability abortions are limited. Once pregnancy hits the third trimester, only 5 states will allow an abortion for reasons not involving health-problems (and if the fetus is viable, then only one state - even in this circumstance, that option is removed after a certain period of time).

KobeClan writes: ... (Below threshold)
s9:

KobeClan writes: Like I said, you asked many questions. Ask and I shall answer.

If you couldn't answer it the first three times I posed it, I see no reason to expect you will answer it if I pose it a fourth, fifth, sixth or seven thousandth time.

It just goes to show how you conservatives are fundamentally dishonest about your true objectives. You have no problems implying what political compromises are unacceptable to you, but asked to state them in unambiguous terms, you demure— knowing full well that to see them spelled out in clear language will put off your political allies who find your extremism unacceptable.

Dear T.J.,Sorry, y... (Below threshold)
KobeClan:

Dear T.J.,

Sorry, your knowledge of the subject couldn't fill up the thimble of a gnat.

First, only 39 states are on the list. That leaves 11 states, such as New Jersey and Hawaii, with no restrictions at all.

Second, 19 states make a health exception, including mental health, to comply with Supreme Court guidelines. Can you say "Doctor, I'm going to kill myself if I have to carry this unviable tissue mass in my body one more day!"??

Third, there were 12000 non-therapeutic PVAs in 2001. 27 documented after 34 weeks and dozens of others uncomfirmed.


If you are 36 weeks-plus and want an abortion, you will find someone to perform it.

Question: If a human only gets legal status after a "live birth", why the fsck do you care anyway??

Dear s9, Thank you... (Below threshold)
KobeClan:

Dear s9,

Thank you for continuing to prove my point. You are a IDB with moonbat clusters, totally incapable of rational thought or debate. A soul-less bastard of humanity who is filled with hate and self-loathing. Your tiny little intellect is too small to contain any fact inconsistent with your moonbat views.

You stereotyped me simply because I exposed you as a lying bag of shqt, which also makes you a bigot.

Did I miss anything?? Oh, you are a good speller.

And if you would like to know my background, I was born a Democrat, I was raised a Democrat, and I will die a Democrat. It breaks my heart that MY Democratic party has been hijacked by soul-less, God-less, amoral jackasses like you.

BTW, you are not half as clever as you appear to think you are. In fact, I like to read many of the moonbat comments at Wizbang because some of them are humorous and clever. You are merely boring.

Dear T.J.,Looked a... (Below threshold)
KobeClan:

Dear T.J.,

Looked at you chart again to see if my memory was correct. It wasn't. There are 4 states whose PVA laws are frozen by court injunction. That makes 15 states with no restrictions on PVAs, 19 with exceptions for mental health, and 16 whose restrictions on PVAs will certainly be rescinded by court order.

Those 12000 PVA abortions are happening somewhere,
EH!!

KobeClan writes: ... (Below threshold)
s9:

KobeClan writes: It breaks my heart that MY Democratic party has been hijacked by soul-less, God-less, amoral jackasses like you.

I haven't registered as a Democrat since 1992. Don't blame the sorry fecklessness of your party on me, you jackass. I've had basically nothing to fscking do with it for the last thirteen years.

Feel free to get your head and your ass wired together and stand up for what you really want to believe. When you produce an answer to my question, I'm ready to continue having a polite discourse with you. Not until then.

Dear s9, Not... (Below threshold)
KobeClan:

Dear s9,

Not a Democratic, HEH?? Let me Guess, Liberterian?? NAH!! Communist?? Possibly. Apathetic jackass?? BINGO!! I do believe we have a winner!!

Wait!! I might be wrong. Have the MOONBATS started their on political party??

Again, ask the question, and I'll give you my answer. I'm surprised that you don't have more tolerance with a senile person like me. That bad memory and all. So, again, what was your one question??

Another question: If your not a Democrat, who did you vote for in the last election?? Ralph Nader??
BWAAHHHHAHHAAHHAAHHH!!!

BTW, your manners are quite juvenile. Send me your mommy's address. You certainly are in line for a good spanking!!

Dear s9,Seriously,... (Below threshold)
KobeClan:

Dear s9,

Seriously, I've looked through all your rantings and cannot find the same question asked twice. Ask me and I will answer. I am intelligent but not prescient. (I know, probably spelled it wrong. Find it in your black, black heart to forgive me).

I apologize for the mistake... (Below threshold)
T.J.:

I apologize for the mistake. Upon closer inspection, I realize that states without restrictions on PVA's were omitted (also, I misinterpreted the use of the third trimester as a point in pregnancy; it was actually meant to mean that abortion was restricted to before the third trimester) after a little more research, I have the following statistics:

9 states have no specific restrictions on PVA's. 5 of these 9 states however, have restrictions on abortion in general

2 of the 4 remaining states restrict partial-birth abortion, leaving 2 states without any significant restrictions on type of abortion.

Dear T.J.,Again, I... (Below threshold)
KobeClan:

Dear T.J.,

Again, I will stand by my statement that abortion on demand throughout pregnancy is the law of the land. 12000 PVAs prove my point. What is your point??

If you are 36 weeks pregnant and want an abortion, you can get it.

Your chart is meaningless. Again, can you say "If I can't get an abortion I'm going to kill myself!!"??

If you can show me any factual evidence (even anectdotal) of a women who made a concerted effort to obtain a PVA and couldn't get one, I will reconsider my statement. Until then, I stand by the accuracy of my statement.

12,000 PVAs can't be wrong!!


KobeClan writes: ... (Below threshold)
s9:

KobeClan writes: Ask me and I will answer.

No, you won't. You can't even be honest enough to admit the question has been clearly posed to you. I'll prove this, by once again posing it to you— even more clearly, so you can't possibly miss it this time. You'll dodge it again.

The question: How can you declare that abortion is child murder, and not then demand the unconditional ban— with the most severe criminal penalties applied to women who have them, medical practitioners who perform them, and third parties who facilitate the service of them— on abortion at all stages of pregnancy everywhere in the world?

I pose this question to you because you have drawn an equivalence between abortion and the murder of children, yet you have not been willing to demand that every woman who experiences a spontaneous miscarriage at six or seven weeks of pregnancy be made into a murder suspect.

Make a fscking decision what you want to believe: A) abortion is not actually child murder, and women who miscarry are to be consoled for their loss, not arrested on a murder rap; or B) abortion is child murder, and every miscarriage is a reason to call out the homicide detectives.

I honestly don't see how you can argue for a third alternative. What is it going to be for you?

Dear s9, Thank you... (Below threshold)
KobeClan:

Dear s9,

Thank you again for proving my point. I did not recognize your "one question" because it is rhetorical. It attributes to me opinions I never expressed, such as "...abortion is child murder." A fair reading of my initial post would conclude that I believe that post-viability abortions are murder. My opinion on earlier-term abortions is not stated.

The miscarriage thing is a poor excuse for a straw man, BTW.

I will try to answer your question as I understand it.

PVAs are murder, and any doctor who performs one should be stripped of his license and prosecuted.
Whether or not the woman should be prosecuted is less clear. I would not. Others could probably make a strong case for doing so.

Abortions during the first trimester are OK with me. I feel this way knowing full well it is the termination of a human life and I pray for God to have mercy on my soul.

The need of women for reproductive control and the protection of human life is a complex issue
that is certainly beyond your capacity to understand. Your statement that legal rights begin after a live birth are truly frightening, amoral at best and truly evil at worst.

As a bonus, I will answer the two questions I posed to you.

Human life begins at conception. Scientific fact. Deal with it.

A fully viable child is certainly entitled to the right to life endowed by our Creator. He would extend this right all the way to conception. Our society will not. So the real issue is when.
I actually liked Roe vs. Wade. Bad law, good policy. Unrestricted abortion 1st trimenster, restricted 2nd trimester, banned 3rd trimester except in pregnancies threatening the LIFE of the mother.

Thats MY opinion on abortion. Now this is were you call me an ass for not agreeing with everything you believe. In my circles we call that "being narrow-minded". GEE, thats a compliment. It assumes you have a mind!!

Happy moonbattary. Regards KobeClan

KobeClan writes: ... (Below threshold)
s9:

KobeClan writes: Now this is were you call me an ass for not agreeing with everything you believe.

No, this is where I call you an ass for getting in my grill when I was calling out Paul for drawing a moral equivalence between abortion and industrialized child murder. It would have been nice if you could have bothered to join me in calling him an extremist, but no— you had to succumb to base tribalism and join the other nitwits who were defending him.

I think your position is the result of typical American pragmatism, which a lot of folks think is a variety of moral relativism. Now, don't get me wrong— I proudly call myself a pragmatist too, though I come to a different position on abortion rights than you do.

But the fact is, you've answered the question by choosing to deny that abortion is child murder. Fine. That's my position too. It does make it harder for you to make a moral argument against unrestricted abortion on demand at all stages of pregnancy, but I'm not trying to press you on that. You can take that up with someone who cares.

Oh yeah— and, nice dig there on calling me "evil" when we both apparently share the same moral philosophy.

Dear s9,How can yo... (Below threshold)
KobeClan:

Dear s9,

How can you read what I wrote and come up with such an illogical conclusion??

First, I "got on your ass" for lying about "the right-wing" eroding Roe vs. Wade. Patently false stetement on your part.

Second, I ADMITTED that abortion terminates a human life. I am willing to permit early abortions because I have first-hand experiences of the havoc caused by an unwanted pregnancy, and may God have mercy on my soul. Abortion IS the murder of a human being. How you could not see that in my answer is beyond me.

Third, I RESPECT those people who would disagree with me on 1st trimester abortions.

Fourth, you stated that you would grant legal protection to a human being only after birth. What is a full-term fetus when it is 99% through delivery?? An unviable tissue mass?? If you believe it is not "human", than you are amoral or evil.

Fifth, We do have common ground, you're just too dense to see it. If women in America ever lose their right to an abortion, even in early pregnancy, it will be the stubborness of people like you that will be the cause.

You may remember C. Everett Koop, former U.S. Surgeon General. He used to be a supporter of abortion-on-demand until he went into an NICU (neonatal intensive care unit) and had a BFO: that it was legal to abort fetuses who were further along in development than the neonates he was treating. If you call it pragmatism, I'll agree.

Sixth, My apologies, you can be funny, followed your links today. Hilarious!! Guess you do have a chance for a long life as a troll!

KobeClan writes: ... (Below threshold)
s9:

KobeClan writes: First, I "got on your ass" for lying about "the right-wing" eroding Roe vs. Wade. Patently false stetement on your part.

Still not willing to face the reality of what anti-abortion conservatives have done to limit access to abortion services, i.e. championed the Casey side in Planned Parenthood vs. Casey which put more limits on 2nd trimester abortions; the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003, which bans a surgical procedure previously used in 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions; they championed Laci and Connor's Law, which declares a congressional intent that fetuses be accorded rights as persons; conservatives have met with great success eroding the coverage of reproductive health care for women in poverty relying on government assistance to pay for their care; and they have used indirect (and sometimes illegal, even terrorist) tactics to drive abortion providers out of whole regions of various states.

It's easier for me to believe that you know all this and you're lying about it to help conservatives cover their tracks with the pragmatists in their ranks, than it is to believe that this is all news to you.

The Republican Party platform has had a plank for the last twenty-five years calling for a constitutional amendment banning abortion outright— conservative Republicans have relentlessly moved to limit access to abortion services wherever possible. Even to the extent that they have prevented women on overseas military bases from getting abortions.

And here you are trying to blow smoke about how it just isn't true— you'd have me believe that conservative Republicans are so pro-choice they're likely to make late-term abortion into an extreme sport, and use it to sell advertisements for natural male enhancement and cosmetic breast implant surgery.

Who on Earth are you expecting to be that stupid?

KobeClan likes to sa... (Below threshold)
s9:

KobeClan likes to say: Human life begins at conception. Scientific fact. Deal with it.

I, on the other hand, continue to argue that human life began some 200,000 years ago when the Home sapiens genome diverged from that of other hominid species.

KobeClan thinks this is disingenuous. She (using the correct pronoun now that she has disclosed having first-hand experience with unplanned pregnancy) seems to be insisting that "human life" is shorthand for "a human being" reasserts that "abortion is the murder of a human being."

That's apparently in complete contradiction to her earlier statement that "abortions during the first trimester are OK." But maybe it isn't. Maybe, KobeClan thinks that some murders are okay and others are unacceptable.

As to her assertion that conception is the beginning of a human life, she leaves an open question to linger: why did she say conception and not fertilization? Conception is when a blastocyst implants in the endometrium. It's already a few hundred cells at that point. What is it about conception that marks the start of a human life in her mind?

She asserts that killing a blastocyst after implantation in the endometrium is murder, but not one second before. She further asserts that the "murder" of a blastocyst is acceptable at any point in its growth cycle until it reaches a nebulously defined stage she calls "post-viability" somewhere around the 22nd or 23rd week, or earlier or later, depending on the state of the art in the medical facility where the blastocyst-turned-fetus is examined.

I have to ask: what other kinds of murders are okay, and shouldn't be prosecuted?

Should murder even be a crime at all?

Dear s9, I give up... (Below threshold)
KobeClan:

Dear s9,

I give up! Trying to have an intelligent conversation with a person without intelligence is the definition of insanity.

Your lie involved rolling back the rights granted by Roe vs. Wade. The EXPANSION of those rights is what most Americans wish to see rolled back.

I have had fun playing with your mind, but it not much of a challenge since you seem to only be able to play one game, and a very simple one at that.
I'm tired of playing checkers with you. I'm going back to the table with the big boys and play a game of chess or two.


You remind me of the class clown who thinks everyone is laughing with him while the truth is everyone is laughing AT him.

I must thank you for showing me the inner workings of the moonbat mind. Fortunately, it didn't take too long because there's not much there.

And I stand by my previous statement. Anyone who believes humans should not have legal rights until after their birth is either amoral or evil. Dirt stupid is another option, but you're not stupid.
Intellectually dishonest buffoon (IDB) seems still to be your best fit, with a heaping dose of amorality tossed in for good measure.

Actually, I think evil describes you best. To say the murder of innocent children is a negligible price to pay for abortion rights is evil at its most vile and base. You also must be a male. No female I've ever known has as dank, dark, and cruel a heart as yours.

I also figure you're well educated, 30+ with a dead-end, low paying job who blames his personal failures on people like me: God-fearing, hard-working, wealthy social conservatives who raise their children to be God-fearing, hard-working, successful conservatives who will raise my grandchildren to be God-fearing ....... ..............

Gee, that describes just about every moonbat out there. I'm stereotyping moonbats!!! Get I am a bigot, just like you!!

Dear s9,You really... (Below threshold)
KobeClan:

Dear s9,

You really are an ASSHAT!! My firsthand experience with unwanted pregnancies was from my 12 months of volunteer work at a crisis pregnancy center!!

You're also wrong about the meanings of conception and fertilization, which I'm sure you're aware of. That and your BORING 200,000 yrs ago schtick just proves what a one-trick pony you are.

Like I said in the previous post, which I wrote before your last post, when you learn some better tricks, look me up.

BTW, if you get back by midnight, please call me a Nazi. I'm in a moonbat fishing tournament and if T.J. doesn't come back or you don't call me a Nazi, I'm only going to finish third. That last post was good for 23 points, put me in 3rd, but I really want to win.

If I told you I'm worth $2.5 million, own my own business, and have an eight-inch Johnson could I get you mad enough to call me a Nazi?? Fascist is 5 points less and will only get me into 3rd.

Thats get me into 2nd. My ... (Below threshold)
KobeClan:

Thats get me into 2nd. My bad!!

"I'm in a moonbat fishing t... (Below threshold)
T.J.:

"I'm in a moonbat fishing tournament and if T.J. doesn't come back or you don't call me a Nazi, I'm only going to finish third."

I sincerely hope that isn't meant to insult me, because I have only stated facts about the state of PVA's (while maintaining a certain degree of politeness). I simply saw a statement of yours that seemed incorrect and wished to correct it; I really had no interest in participating in this debate. For now, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were speaking out of anger over your argument. If that is indeed the case, I will let it go.

Dear T.J.Thank you... (Below threshold)
KobeClan:

Dear T.J.

Thank you for your timely return. I finished in 2nd place.

Your "facts" are totally irrelevent. They do not reflect the current availibility of abortion as it exists today. As I stated before, 12,000 PVAs make your contribution to this thread completely lodged in a parallel universe. The chart you linked to has no meaning without an understanding of current law or the real world. I will pose a similar question: If the Guttmacher people published a list showing 87% of 3rd world countries have declared the world flat, would you cancel your around-the-world cruise??

Dear s9'I hope you... (Below threshold)
KobeClan:

Dear s9'

I hope you come back to read this post. I have played you for a total fool, which wasn't too hard.

Most of my homies at my HNC ('Hood Numismatic Club) are big bloggers and blog-surfers. We came up with moonbat fishing about 4 months ago. Ten of us put in $30 each. The rules were simple: hook a moonbat: defined as a posted comment with a response from a moonbat that did not mention the moonbats moniker but got a response and then keep the moonbat "on the line". I told you I used "baited" intentionally.

You get points based on the number of responses and the amount of vitriol heaped on you by your moonbat (playing the fish), I thought for sure I'd win when you followed me to archive (100 bonus points). Points also for asking factual questions which are ignored or distorted (extra thanks to s9).

T.J. showing up was worth 75 points (25 points for "troll-swarm", 50 for 1st showing up in archive).
T.J.'s last post put me in 2nd.

Thank you both for winning me $100.

You might not know what a HNC is. That's were middle-aged men with too much money get together to pay too much money for old money. Inside joke. If you don"t get it, don't worry. Don't think either one of you will ever be to a point in time were it matters.

KobeClan writes: ... (Below threshold)
s9:

KobeClan writes: I told you I used "baited" intentionally.

Still doesn't make the metaphor work. And I'm totally unfamiliar with the ways of middle-aged men with too much money. What is a "Numistmatic Club" anyway?

*sigh* I suspected it would... (Below threshold)
T.J.:

*sigh* I suspected it would turn out like this. KobeClan, regardless of what you might think, I've made a decent case that what you had said earlier is a bit of an exaggeration. All I wanted to do was try and keep the facts straight, and I've provided enough information here for that purpose. I hope our next encounter will be more pleasant than this turned out to be.

Dear T.J.,You can'... (Below threshold)
KobeClan:

Dear T.J.,

You can't expect to show up at a knife fight with a plastic fork and not get cut. My statement that abortion-on-demand is correct, I stand by it, and nothing in your chart refutes that fact. If you can explain to me how 12,000 PVAs a year get performed I might have a little bit of respect for you. NOTHING in that chart provides any evidence, in fact, it is WORTHLESS!!

You can go stick your moonbat head in the sand and convince yourself that PVAs don't occur, post-viability fetuses aren't human, and abortion is not murder. Be sure to wear your tin-foil hat, it will help you dig deeper into the sand.

And what do you mean you "suspected it would turn out like this..."? To say you made "a decent case..." has to rank as one of the most asinine statements I've heard in a while. If you want to make a case, go for it, but you'll need more than that worthless chart.

Dear s9, ... (Below threshold)
KobeClan:

Dear s9,

You're slipping, you used the word "metaphor" incorrectly. Sounds like you're dealing with a slice of humble pie. We get a lot of that after our moonbat finds himself flopping around on the bottom of the boat. No insults.

I predict moonbat fishing will spread like wildfire across the web. Have already got feedback from other groups.

And you moonbats are so easy to hook, all you have to do is point out an obviously incorrect fact on one of your posts and you rise like a trout to the first mayfly of the season.

Doubt you'll learn anything. Fish are smarter than moonbats, after all.

"And what do you mean you "... (Below threshold)
T.J.:

"And what do you mean you "suspected it would turn out like this..."?"

I was afraid that this was going to degrade into a flame war, where reasonable discourse would be difficult - unfortunately that is how it's turning out. I've ignored your statement about 12000 PVA's because it doesn't really say much; I know the number, but I don't have any other relevant information. At the very least, give me some citation so that I can look into it myself. I contest your statement about unrestricted abortion being the law of the land because:

- It only applies to 9 states (and I doubt a pregnant woman is going to travel to a different state JUST for an abortion of a viable fetus)
- It simply seems impractical to have a late term abortion (I would certainly hope that six months is PLENTY of time to have made one's decision AND acted on it), so I am not currently inclined to believe that a woman is going to just decide to get one in the third trimester.

If you want to have a calm discussion about this, I'm up for it. Who knows, maybe we'd both come off of it slightly more enlightened than we were beforehand. Otherwise, I'm just not in the mood for a name-calling contest.

Dear T.J.My source... (Below threshold)
KobeClan:

Dear T.J.

My sources are the Journal of the American Medical Association and the New England Journal of Medicine. Fact. In the year 2001, 15,000 PVAs were performed, 3,000 therapeutic and 12,000 non-therapeutic.

Please go back to your chart and look at the background info. To pass Supreme Court muster, a law MUST have an exception for BOTH the life and the HEALTH of the mother, including MENTAL HEALTH. Most legal scholars say this was a way for the Supreme Court to allow unrestricted PVAs without saying it OUT LOUD!! One of those legal scholars is RUTH BADER GINSBURG!!!!!!!

The SUPREME COURT IS THE LAW OF THE LAND!!!!!!!!

I said abortion-on-demand is the law of the land.
I most respectfully ask you to tell me why my stetement is not accurate and why I and RUTH BADER GINSBURG are wrong.

Thank you for that informat... (Below threshold)
T.J.:

Thank you for that information. I've tried looking through their websites for some more details now, but I still haven't found the location of that information. If you could provide me with any possible links to these statistics or articles, then that would be incredibly helpful (the JAMA website has a subscription fee, so I can't get the full articles).

I did a quick look for statements of some legal scholars (concerning the Supreme Court Rulings), but I don't know of the best search terms to enter into google. Either way, I'm confident that with enough information, I can come to my own conclusions; I just need to make sure that I actually have enough info.

Here's how I see it:
The majority of states have sufficient restrictions on late-term abortions. I believe that exceptions for life-endangerment, physical health and mental health are appropriate (and I'm speaking of real mental health risks; stress alone isn't enough, and I don't think the "I'm going to kill myself" routine will be a big problem). I don't really think that that abortion laws are going to become too much lighter either. If you're lucky, the remaining states may even tighten their laws a bit. This is why I think it's an exaggeration to say abortion-on-demand is the law of the land.

Dear T.J., Yo... (Below threshold)
KobeClan:

Dear T.J.,

You can do a search for "post viability abortion frequency" or thy this link:

http://www.ppl.org/PJune_PostViability_2001.html

You will see the numbers are for 1997, similar to most years. You will see the statement that the Supreme Court has so broadly defined "health" of the mother so broadly as to be meaningless.

Digest this info and get back to me. Its a long report, but a real eye-opener. It is from a pro-life site, but the documentation is well-sourced and fully referrenced at the bottom. You should be able to use this as a starting point.

Like I said before, 12,000 non-therapeutic PVAs a year is a steep price to pay for reproductive freedom.

Thank you. I started with t... (Below threshold)
T.J.:

Thank you. I started with the google search (the link looked a bit long, so I'll need to find some time for it). I didn't find anything quite as convenient as a page of statistics (nothing's ever easy >_

ack! Someone broke my comme... (Below threshold)
T.J.:

ack! Someone broke my comment. Anyway, I'll be looking at that as soon as I can.

Dear T.J.,If you'r... (Below threshold)
KobeClan:

Dear T.J.,

If you're wondering why I lament the fate of my Democrat Party? Have you heard the NARAL commercial opposing Roberts?? I've never seen so many lies packed into so short a time span. And they say "trust us, it ain't human until its born."
I'll never be a member of the "stupid party", but I don't think I can ever vote for a Democrat above the local level ever again. Nationally, the party is drifting toward socialism and beyond (Marxism, Stalinism, Maoism, Trotskyism). Is abortion-on-demand the price we have to pay to be a loyal Democrat?? TOO high a price for me.

I'm not very knowledgable a... (Below threshold)
T.J.:

I'm not very knowledgable about political stuff...but yeah, I can definitely see what you mean (Way too much whining from some democratic politicians for my taste). I ... still haven't finished that article (been a little busy), but I plan on getting to it. Until my next post, peace out.




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