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Joseph Wilson's "Who's Who In America" Entry

Many have wondered what was the purpose of the "Who's Who In America" sitting on the desk in yesterday's Robert Novak walk-off incident on CNN's Inside Politics.

novakzoom400.jpg


Josh Marshall points out this tidbit from an a Chicago Sun-Times piece on the incident explains:

In a column that ran in the Sun-Times on Monday, Novak suggested he learned Plame's identity partly from reading Who's Who in America. A CNN source said a producer had placed a copy of Who's Who on the set Thursday prior to the taping, apparently so it could be consulted while Novak was asked about the issue.
So what would they have found?

Here's what's inside the book siting on that desk...


"Copyright (c) 2002 by Reed Elsevier, Inc."


Melvin Schuetz from Baylor's Moody Library forwarded Joseph Wilson's bio from the 2003 edition of Who's Who in America [Volume 2 (L-Z)]. He notes:

Wilson's entry carries over about 5 lines to the next column, which is why it cuts off in mid-sentence at the end. The relevant text is "m. Valerie Elise Plame, Apr. 3, 1998," which not only appears in the 2003 edition, but ALL editions from 1999-2005!
So, via Who's Who, the name "Valerie Plame" has been associated publicly with Joe Wilson since the Clinton era - nice secret... ***

Coverage Elsewhere

Mickey Kaus
Tom Maguire
Josh Marshall
Jay Rosen

Update: For the commenters and blogs tracking back saying variation of, "Plame's identity was never a secret," (a point I address below at the ***) this post originally related back to what the book was doing on the table [See yesterday's post on the Novak meltdown]. Was it supposed to scare Novak? Given the content of the book why would it? It says what he said it said...

Update 2: More on Novak and Plame later, but perhaps the raging debate in the comment section can dissect what effect, if any, Novak's piece would have had if he used Valerie Wilson instead of Valerie Plame? Also do you think Novak, on hearing of the wife's involvement got her name from Who's Who and stuck with it OR found the Who's Who reference to backup his source(s)?

*** Evidently one cannot even make a snarky remark about the Plame affair without having to explain oneself ad nauseum. OK here goes...

I'm over generalizing here, but it seem like there wasn't an outing of an agent until two non-secret bits of information were combined.Joseph Wilson's wife's maiden name, most would now agree, was not a secret. That Wilson worked at the CIA was not widely known, but it was hardly a secret [See Cliff May at NRO and Just One Minute]. That Wilson's wife was (or had been) a covert operative was only known to (if reports are to be believed) the Cuban government and perhaps those receiving information form Aldrich Ames, but it was still a secret. Novak puts two pieces of non-secret information together and gets this flashpoint.

But how did that combination "out" a covert agent? I turns out the the Valerie Plame name (remember, according to many commenters her name's no big deal) was her cover. If her cover name was Valerie Jones how exactly would Novak's column as it was written have "outed" her? It's wouldn't have. As former federal prosecutor Joesph DiGenoa contends it sure looks like the CIA didn't exactly bust a nut to "take every conceivable step to protect this person's identity."


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Comments (411)

Interesting quote from the ... (Below threshold)
mcg:

Interesting quote from the Who's Who web page:

Who's Who in America has proven to be of critical reference value to a wide variety of users...

* Fund-raisers, civic groups, foundations
* Lawyers, politicians
* Financial analysts, brokers
* Journalists, radio/TV news editors
* Executive recruiters
* Government officials, diplomats
* Business leaders
* Scientists, educators, students
* Speaker and search committees
* Advertising and PR agencies

More importantly, "Who's Wh... (Below threshold)
Steve L.:

More importantly, "Who's Who" information is provided by the honoree, so it was Wilson himself that put her name in the book.

Additional info added in hi... (Below threshold)
jmaster:

Additional info added in his 2005 profile:

2002-2004: Self promoting, opportunistic, Democratic party hack. 2004 to present: Camera hogging, bold faced liar.

I don't see where it says s... (Below threshold)
mantis:

I don't see where it says she worked for the CIA there.

Of course, mantis does make... (Below threshold)
jmaster:

Of course, mantis does make a good point.....

I've been following the Pla... (Below threshold)

I've been following the Plame scandal virtually not at all, but from what I understand, it was never a secret that Joe Wilson was married to Valerie Plame. The secret was that she worked for the CIA. That being so, the Who's Who entry proves nothing.

Don't you think his neighbo... (Below threshold)
Vlad D. Inhaler:

Don't you think his neighbors knew his wife's name? Her name or who she was married to was never the secret. Identifying Wilson's wife (either by name or by some positive identification such as say... "Joe Wilson's wife") as a CIA operative is what was supposed to be kept secret and that is what is relevant.

As, by the way, is the fact that someone also gave Novak the name of the cover company she worked for, thereby endangering every other operative using that cover.

I know it's hard, but please try to keep your eye on the ball.

Uhh, Kevin, it was no secre... (Below threshold)
Joe:

Uhh, Kevin, it was no secret that Joe Wilson was married to a woman named Valerie Plame --- everyone who knew them knew that. What WAS a secret was that she WORKED FOR THE CIA. HOW THE HELL YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE IS BEYOND ME.

Of course, as mantis notes ... (Below threshold)

Of course, as mantis notes above, the fact that she was a covert agent, coupled with the name, was the national security problem. The mere fact that Wilson was married to someone who happened to be named Valerie Plame Wilson wasn't a secret. I should think this would be obvious to anyone whose mind wasn't beclouded by overwhelming right-wing bias.

Why are mid-level governmen... (Below threshold)
Ross:

Why are mid-level government agency analysts getting listings in Who's Who??

Where does it list her affi... (Below threshold)
POed Liberal:

Where does it list her affiliation with the CIA?

Why is it that today's chicken shit repukes hate the military and the CIA?

Why do repukes defend traitors like Bob Novak?

"BFD" I agree with mantis.... (Below threshold)
the smartmom:

"BFD" I agree with mantis. Who's Who is a standard reference used by the organizations in mcg's comment. As an Ambassador, Wilson would have been the type of person to be listed. The biographical data is also standard. None of this excuses the behavior of the Bush administration and their cronies.

Indeed, given that the crim... (Below threshold)
jdough:

Indeed, given that the criminal statute at issue makes it a crime to identify a covert agent, the Who's Who listing makes it possible to break the law - by saying that Wilson's wife is a CIA operative - without actually naming her.

I gotta admit--it doesn't s... (Below threshold)
Derelict:

I gotta admit--it doesn't seem to say anything like "Valerie Plame--undercover operative for the CIA."

Or is the relevant point here that Wilson should have kept his marriage and children secret just on the off chance that someone might try to out his wife?

I bet if you looked up her ... (Below threshold)
GOP- an illusionist:

I bet if you looked up her high school yearbook, she used the name "Valerie Plame" too. Oh wait, that was her name?

Freeptards.

It's an odd notion indeed, ... (Below threshold)
bubba:

It's an odd notion indeed, that some people believe in order to be covert you must renounce your given name.

I was always under the impression that what is supressed is not your name, but rather your affiliation with the intelligence community.

How exactly is Joe Wilson a... (Below threshold)
KTSnip:

How exactly is Joe Wilson a liar?

So, via Who's Who, the n... (Below threshold)
Tom:

So, via Who's Who, the name "Valerie Plame" has been associated publicly with Joe Wilson since the Clinton era - nice secret...

The name "Valerie Plame" has been associated publicly with Joe Wilson ever since they got married. Marriage licenses are public record.

Thus, we should prohibit secret government operatives from marrying, having children, being born or dying. After all, once you know somebody's name, the jig is up...

Allah, the CIA agent whose ... (Below threshold)
Pamela:

Allah, the CIA agent whose duty it was to deal with the public, told the WaPo and others that he testified that he told Novak the story wasn't true and not to use her name. He told the WaPo that he checked on her covert status, called Novak back and said that the story Novak had wasn't true and he shouldn't write it, but *if he did, he shouldn't use her name*.

And please, the controversy has fluctuated back and forth, but Wilson's original flogging point was that Novak had *revealed her name*, and it's been a point that's been beaten to death. So Kevin's post is directly on point.

Typical wingnut obfuscation... (Below threshold)

Typical wingnut obfuscation and misdirection. The statute in question says "identify" -- not NAME, "identify" a covert agent, . . .

You guys can't all be that stupid -- can you?

By this logic, in the 007 m... (Below threshold)
Gary Johnston:

By this logic, in the 007 movies, when James Bond introduces himself to the villains at cocktail parties and tells them that he's "Bond, James Bond," he's actually blowing his cover.

You're not too bright, Kevin.

Does the book have an entry... (Below threshold)
Who:

Does the book have an entry for Plame? Just curious.

I never understood why somebody would sign up for 'Who's who" but I once saw it on a job applicant's resume, as if that is some sort of credential.

I'll take Kevin's non-respo... (Below threshold)
Joe:

I'll take Kevin's non-response to the obvious defect in his reasoning as proof of what an intellectually dishonest twit he is.

Pamela:You're wron... (Below threshold)
Pamela 2:

Pamela:

You're wrong on both counts. The CIA agent did NOT check her covert status and tell Novak he was wrong on that point; he checked to see if Plame had ordered Joe Wilson to go to Niger, and then said that that point was wrong. He stressed that she WAS covert, and told Novak not to print her name.

And you're missing the point. Revealing the name "Valerie Plame" by itself is not a violation of the law (or the public trust), nor is revealing that some anonymous undercover CIA agent did something a violation of the law, or treasonous.

It's mentioning the name "Valerie Plame" as an undercover CIA agent that's the crime, and the treasonous activity. I can see your IQ is very low, so I'll give you a few moments to wrap your head around it.

"Valerie Plame"? Not a secret. There are undercover CIA agents? Not a secret. Valerie Plame was an undercover CIA agent? That's a secret.

Freeptard.

Joe Wilson has been caught ... (Below threshold)
Ross:

Joe Wilson has been caught in several lies. If you MENSA's knew how to use the Internet, you'd know that already.

Woo-hoo! It's Friday!

Wow, these DU'ers really kn... (Below threshold)
jmaster:

Wow, these DU'ers really know how to carry out a logical argument, don't they?

Why was Valerie Plame put o... (Below threshold)
Ross:

Why was Valerie Plame put on "enforced leave"?

And please, the controve... (Below threshold)

And please, the controversy has fluctuated back and forth, but Wilson's original flogging point was that Novak had *revealed her name*, and it's been a point that's been beaten to death. So Kevin's post is directly on point.

Jeezus, it's a figure of speech, Pamela. Putting her name right next to the words "CIA operative" is what Wilson was talking about.

Lots of articles talk about Novak "outing" her, too -- does that make her a lesbian?

Get a frickin' clue, people!

Okay, lots of posts while I... (Below threshold)
Pamela:

Okay, lots of posts while I was commenting. Please pay attention to what the CIA guy said. *The story he (Novak) had wasn't true, but, if he (Novak) wrote it, he shouldn't use her name.*

Note that nowhere did he insist on leaving her out of it completely. So, if we believe what he claims his testimony to the grand jury was (and he's CIA, he wouldn't lie, right?) then you cannot conclude, from what the CIA agent testified, that Novak did anything wrong.

Now, there may be other reasons to conclude guilt, but NOT based on what the CIA guy did. And folks, the statute says that the CIA had to be making concerted effort to protect her covert status. Based on what the CIA agent testified, doesn't sound like they were fulfilling their part of it, if indeed she was covert.

Wilson's original floggi... (Below threshold)
MillionthMonkey:

Wilson's original flogging point was that Novak had *revealed her name*

Are you guys really this stupid, or just pretending to be stupid? Because if you're just pretending, then I feel sorry for you. It must be frustrating to be forced to soil your reputations by making stupid arguments like this one with a straight face. But I guess you have no choice!

This is what Novak wrote:

Wilson never worked for the CIA, but his wife, Valerie Plame, is an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction.

Novak revealed the name as that of a covert CIA agent. The secret wasn't that he had a wife.

I don't know how to use the... (Below threshold)
KTSnip:

I don't know how to use the internet... so can you list some lies for us? We would all like to be informed.

Hmm, you guys talk about lo... (Below threshold)
Ross loves jmaster:

Hmm, you guys talk about logical arguments, but I have yet to see one.

1) Please give me an example of Joe Wilson being caught in a lie that's on point to the issues being discussed with Niger, yellowcake, and the outing of his wife.
2) Please explain how the public knowledge that Joe Wilson was married to Valerie Plame is the same as identifying Valerie Plame as an undercover CIA agent.

Geniuses. Really.

Plame had two jobs for the ... (Below threshold)
ern:

Plame had two jobs for the CIA. One, which was her most recent job and the one in which she was in a position to suggest her husband be sent to niger, was not a covert position. It was publicly known that she worked for the CIA. In her other job for the CIA (which apparently ended in 1998, or thereabouts) she was a covert operative.

Ross,I don't know ... (Below threshold)
KTSnip:

Ross,

I don't know how to use the internet... so can you list some lies for us? We would all like to be informed.

Pamela wrote:"And ... (Below threshold)
JP:

Pamela wrote:

"And please, the controversy has fluctuated back and forth, but Wilson's original flogging point was that Novak had *revealed her name*, and it's been a point that's been beaten to death. So Kevin's post is directly on point."

Pamela, stop for a second. Does it make any sense for someone to mind if someone says, "X is his wife?" It makes no sense at all.

It never occurred to me that anyone would interpret it that way. I suppose that if you take something without context, you can make it mean anything you want. But do you think that an investigator (who is a Republican at that) would spend more than two seconds laughing if that is all that was meant?

We have two relevant items. The first is the endangering of national security. That it appears to be for political gain makes it more insidious. But to deny this piece is to say that national security is less important than standing with your party. You have to choose--your party or your nation. I prefer the nation.

The second relevant item is that a fair number of people put forth Pamela's lines. Whether this is just because of confusion as to what is really at stake here or distortion on a partisan basis almost does not matter. Either way, it needs to stop because we're talking about national security.

OMG, don't you get it. It ... (Below threshold)
LBlog:

OMG, don't you get it. It means Joe Wilson is a bigamist! All this time he's been married to Mrs. Wilson AND some woman named Plame! No doubt about it, he's toast now!

She was already outed by Al... (Below threshold)
Ben:

She was already outed by Aldrich Ames, which is why they pulled her out of actual covert duty. My understanding is that her neighbors were well aware that she worked for the CIA. I guess she must have leaked it to them.

Michael S.,Don't t... (Below threshold)
johng:

Michael S.,

Don't try to confuse wingnuts with logic. Those who worship Dear Leader will never let facts deter them. When facts intrude they fight them with made-up facts; when that doesn't work, they ignore the facts; when that doesn't work; they dispute the existence of facts. There is simply no set of circumstances that would convince them that anything Dear Leader has done is less than perfect. The guy could get caught red-handed carjacking a Lexus on K Street, and it would make no difference. Dear Leader, BTW, has stated for the record that he shares this view of his own infallibility.

It was not a secret that Jo... (Below threshold)
Peter:

It was not a secret that Joe Wilson was married. What was a secret was that his wife worked for the CIA, tellingly that information is no where to be found in this entry.

Do you really believe that Novak found out about Valerie Plame through Who's Who? Did he then divine her idenity as a covert CIA operative through force of mental telepathy?

And Pamela 2, how nice. Whe... (Below threshold)
Pamela:

And Pamela 2, how nice. Where did I insult anyone's intelligence or speak with disrespect? You make it difficult for anyone to take you seriously if you respond so nastily. And, uh, NO. The agent testified that he checked her status, NOT that he checked to see if she had anything to do with the trip. Since, supposedly, his concern was about 'outing' an 'undercover' agent.

Both the retired CIA mediap... (Below threshold)
jimhanavan:

Both the retired CIA mediaperson Novak contacted and Novak himself establish that Novak called the CIA before he ran his Plame column to confirm she worked there.The CIA mediaperson cofirmed she worked there, but asked Novak not to use her name and did not tell Novak she was "covert" because that was classified. Novak has said he would never have run with the story had he been told not to, but he was not. It is apparent that the CIA "outed" Plame, although others may have "outed" her as a CIA employee as well (perhaps Judy Miller, who has most likely known Plame/Wilson for years).

Pamela,Ambassador ... (Below threshold)
tired of lies:

Pamela,

Ambassador Wilson's ORIGINAL FLOGGING POINT was that the White House had little evidence to suggest that Iraq had ties to Al Quaeda and that Iraq was not looking to buy yellowcake from Niger.

Then came Novak's article outing Plame as a CIA agent. NOT as Joseph Wilson's wife.

This isn't about Valerie Plame or Joseph Wilson.

This is about the outing of a CIA operative AND the operation she worked for JUST for political payback. This is about national security. This is about wasting millions of tax payer's dollars just for political payback because it takes DECADES to establish an undercover operation.

That's called treason.

I dunno. There are good poi... (Below threshold)

I dunno. There are good points here about her private life vs. professional association. The problem is her relationship with Wilson and sending him on a mission that was erroneously used to slam the Bush administration. Wilson never even wrote a report on it, but it was so important that he became the Times' op-ed go-to guy?

That he's a "Who's Who" kind of guy doesn't mean he's a climber. He does have some interesting creds. So how did he become the poster boy for the "intelligence lied" argument? Why is there no furor over his mistakes? Flame away.

Authentic American hero. Wa... (Below threshold)
c4logic:

Authentic American hero. Warrior against the forces of darkness currently occupying the White House. Slayer of right wing trolls.

Yes, yes, that's the ticket... (Below threshold)
Matt:

Yes, yes, that's the ticket. It was her name that was secret, not the fact that she was a CIA operative.

Shithead traitors.

Finally, Mr. Novak, Mr. Rov... (Below threshold)

Finally, Mr. Novak, Mr. Rove and Mr. Liddy are vindicted. It was "Who's Who" that outed Valerie Plame as Wilson's wife. Obviously the marriage alerted the world that Plame was a CIA agent. After all, energy consultants never marry Ambassadors--it's taboo, like marying your daughter.

So I want to know who Judit... (Below threshold)
Ben:

So I want to know who Judith Miller is protecting. Do you really think she went to jail to protect Karl Rove or Robert Novak? This woman works for the New York Times, who display unending hostility to Rove and all things Bushian. Whomever she is protecting is the real culprit.

This whole argument is quit... (Below threshold)

This whole argument is quite something. Valerie Plame Wilson should not have been outed. But let's not act as if she were out running black ops. She wasn't She read think tank reports. The real problem is that the statutes that govern Identities Protection are antiquated. For instance, everyone is wiggy about Plame who had a desk job. But not a single person has noted that our SPecial Forces don't have the same protection. And they are out in the field, occasionally on missions directed by the CIA. If one of their identities gets blown - they are in mortal danger. Valerie Plame was more likely to get stuck in traffic on the GW Parkway. Let's keep our eye on the ball. Novak is a has-been desperate to be relevant.

The real issues about outin... (Below threshold)

The real issues about outing a cover agent are 1) knowledge of the covert status and most importantly, 2) intent of blowing the cover. The questions then are:

1) If Ms. Plame’s cover was so deep, and outing her identity so dangerous, why did Wilson allow her maiden name to be posted on Who is Who AND in his internet bio at the Middle East Institute in 2002 where it was easily available on Google in July 2003 at the time of his Op-Ed in the NYT?

http://eyeontheworld.typepad.com/home/2005/07/wilson_was_the_.html

2) Given the established public nature of her maiden name documented above, the day Wilson's editorial appeared in the NYT Valerie Plame went from being the wife of Joseph Wilson, former ambassador, retired, to the wife of Joseph Wilson, CIA contractor that investigates WMD and can not keep his mouth shut.
Why didn’t Wilson think that writing an Op-ed about the CIA, his work for it, and her subject matter expertise in the NYT and then giving public interviews about it could plausibly increase the risk (even if it was only marginally) to her job, her cover and potentially her life?

3) Given that he was so casual about making very public statements related to his wife’s field of expertise and place of employment, it would be logical for any rational observer to conclude that Wilson had a lackadaisical attitude to protecting any subjects related to her wife’s job. Thus the questions are, would any rational husband in the world do anything public that would create ANY risk, even minimal risk, to his wife’s job and potentially her life? Would anyone even think that a husband would be so reckless?

4) Thus, knowing this information, why would any other rational person, regardless of position, when learning about her place of employment would even think or speculate that her CIA employment was of a covert nature or that there would be any sort of risk associated with mentioning it?

I think that the hypothetical conversation between the bad guys that I
outline below would have been fairly plausible, even if Novak's column would have never been published.

Ms. Plame is in Russia in 2004, back in business, trying to obtain WMD information from
black market dealers.
> > > Dealer 1: So who is this chick Plame?
> > > Dealer 2: I do not know, let me check on the Internet.
> > > Dealer 2: I found on Google this site where it says that she is the wife of some
> > > Joseph Wilson.
> > > Dealer 1: What?
> > > Dealer 2: Joseph Wilson, former ambasador.
> > > Dealer 1: The Joseph Wilson? The one that wrote in U.S. papers that he
> > > worked for the CIA looking for WMD?
> > > Dealer 2: I guess so.
> > > Dealer 1: The next time you see this chick make sure that our names never appear on the paper.


As everyone who's been awak... (Below threshold)
267:

As everyone who's been awake through this story knows, Novak says he heard from reporters that "Wilson's wife works for the CIA". Apparently this was common knowledge among the media set. Novak also says he found that Wilson's wife is named "Valerie Plame" by consulting WW. Apparently Wilson's wife is indeed identified by name in WW. Ergo (that means "therefore", lefties) it's perfectly plausible that Novak learned that Valerie Plame is a CIA employee in the manner he claims. Duh.

The commenters above who are unable to navigate a chain of logic this short are simply dumbasses. No other explanation possible.

She hasn't been covert sinc... (Below threshold)
Ross:

She hasn't been covert since 1997, so there hasn't been a "breach" regarding her former covert status.

"How exactly is Joe Wilson ... (Below threshold)
Darwin Finch:

"How exactly is Joe Wilson a liar?"

You asked for it (dumbass):

1. He said Cheney sent him to Africa (Lie - his wife recommended him at the CIA)

2. He said he found nothing (Lie - the PM of Niger told him an Iraqi delegation had come to talk about purchasing Uranium)

The guy's the biggest self-important blowhard camera hound this side of McCain.

Send him to Gitmo!

People, people, people, she... (Below threshold)
onlyabill:

People, people, people, she was not undercover! There was NO CRIME. She was CIA. Not a secret. She DID do what she could to get her husband selected for the trip. He then LIED about what he found and how he got selected to go.

What is SO hard to understand?

Dude, that James Bond comme... (Below threshold)
JP:

Dude, that James Bond comment was hilarious.

Also, the only person to ha... (Below threshold)
ed:

Also, the only person to have claimed knowing her CIA status before the leak is Cliff May of the National Review. No on else, not a neighbor, friend or cocktail party circuiteer has stepped forward saying they knew.

It proves Novak is being sl... (Below threshold)
Dorian:

It proves Novak is being slippery, and begs the question why?

As much as you might say th... (Below threshold)
ben:

As much as you might say that Plame's outing was for payback (which I don't agree with, at worst it was just a mistake, Rove probably didn't even know she was supposed to be covert), she wasn't exactly in a position where outing her is a national secutiry issue. Her life is in absolutely no danger from this. If it was, then why has she been displayed happily on the cover of Vanity Fair, not bothering to hide, or find a safe house or anything.

Now we're getting payback in reverse. The left is using the outing of someone who doesn't matter a bit to attack Bush and friends like there is no tomorrow. That's payback for winning the election.

This whole thing does not matter in the least to anyone, except in terms of what sort of political points they can score, and Joseph Wilson is right at the top of the list of people who have used this for personal gain. He got a book deal out of it, he got on lots of TV shows, and he got on the cover of a magazine. But did the outing affect our national security in any way? Did it cause a secret agent to die? Did it blow a massive secret operation? No, no, no. This is all about partisan bickering, with no real issue in sight.

Hi folks- Paul here...... (Below threshold)
Paul:

Hi folks- Paul here...

I think several of you (all of you?) missed the whole point of the post.

The speculation was that Novak was running away from the contents of that big brown book. Clearly the contents (to what extent can me argued) tend to back him up...

Certainly it shows there was nothing in the book for him to be afraid of.

Since Novak made the claim she WAS in the book if she WAS NOT in the book it would make him look bad. Since she was in the book, it is extraordinarily doubtful he was running away because he saw a Who's Who sitting on the desk.

The post was more about Novak's motivation for leaving the CNN desk than who Plame was.

Frankly, I'm not sure why this needs explaining but apparently it does.

"...you see, your honor, th... (Below threshold)
Tom:

"...you see, your honor, the road was totally deserted, four whole empty lanes as far as the eye could see. The weather was perfect, my car is designed for much higher speeds, and I wasn't hurting anybody. While I may have technically broken the law, I really don't think doing 120 in a 55 zone with my lights out at 3:30 A.M. is really all that serious. I mean, c'mon--it's not like I was gleefully running down pedestrians at a Girl Scout festival. It's not my fault our traffic laws are so antiquated."

"Do you really believe that... (Below threshold)

"Do you really believe that Novak found out about Valerie Plame through Who's Who? Did he then divine her idenity as a covert CIA operative through force of mental telepathy?"

Yes, I do. I bet he drank some of that Magical Kabbalah water Katherine Harris nagged the State of Florida into buying. If it can cure citris canker and make you lucky, I bet it can give you telepathy.

Oh, and we've turned the corner in Iraq, too.

Actually the points about W... (Below threshold)
Sabba Hillel:

Actually the points about Wilson lieing are as follows

1. He lied about how he got the mission (denied that he got it through his wife)

2. He lied about Niger not being approached to sell the ore to Iraq (his own report said they did)

3. He lied about the report itself (source - the congressional report)

4. Lied about his wife's covert status (the neighbors all knew who his wife was employed by).

5. Lied about the report being sent to the Vice President's office (Mr. Cheney never knew of such a report)

6. Lied about the truth of the 16 words (The British still maintain that their sources show the claim was true).

Is that enough for everyone? There is more as can be seen at many places on the net.

I don't see why every wingn... (Below threshold)

I don't see why every wingnut takes it on face value that she was a "desk jockey." SHE WAS A NOC, PEOPLE!

Do you think the CIA kept her with that classification out of inertia? Or do you think it just might be possible that the "desk jockey" story is A LIE TO COVER UP HER CONTINUING COVERT STATUS?

Wow! Deception -- from the CIA? Who'da thunk?

What was a secret was that ... (Below threshold)
Mark Flacy:

What was a secret was that his wife worked for the CIA

No doubt she took the secret CIA transporter to beam into work each day instead of driving into the front gate. The fact that someone works at the CIA is not a secret.

Fine, so the CIA said she w... (Below threshold)
ben:

Fine, so the CIA said she was a desk jockey as a cover. Then I say she works for the CIA, I'm outing a desk jockey, not a covert agent. That would make it the CIAs fault, not mine, because why the heck should I be worried about saying a desk jockey works for the CIA?

Wow, you must've been linke... (Below threshold)
kbiel:

Wow, you must've been linked on DU, Kevin. Congrats. Now can you get rid of this moonbat infestation?

So far, the only wrongdoing... (Below threshold)
Ross:

So far, the only wrongdoing that has been established is that on the part of Joe Wilson.

SabbaPoint 1 ... (Below threshold)
Tom:

Sabba
Point 1 is a gross and politically-motivated misinterpretation of what Joe Wilson actually said.

Point 2 is a gross and politically-motivated misinterpretation of what Joe Wilson actually said.

Point 3 is a gross and politically-motivated misinterpretation of what Joe Wilson actually said.

Point 4 is a gross and politically-motivated misinterpretation of what Joe Wilson actually said.

Point 5 is a gross and politically-motivated misinterpretation of what Joe Wilson actually said.

Point 6 is a gross and politically-motivated misinterpretation of what Joe Wilson actually said.

I really can't see how anybody can possibly deny this and still consider themselves human, American, patriotic, or even sentient. The evidence supporting my statements is overwhelming and readily available on any one of the many Internets, and I'll further assert the unnasailable veracity of my points by concluding this post with the statement "Period." on a single line.

Period.

Not really adding anything ... (Below threshold)

Not really adding anything new here, the previous 40 or so comments seem to have it covered, but this has got to be the stupidest post I have ever seen on this blog, and believe me, it's got some competition.

Yeah, Joe Wilson's wedding to Valerie took place under cover of darkness, on a secluded island in the Indian Ocean. In the years thereafter, Joe denied that the gold band around his left ring finger was a wedding ring, instead insisting that it was merely a "good luck charm." His friends began to think he might be gay after he repeatedly turned down his friends who wanted to set-up the stubbornly single bachelor with eligible women. Well, I guess the secret's finally out. Joe Wilson is married to Valerie Plame. Man, and to think I could have just consulted my trusty Who's Who from ALL THE WAY BACK TO 1999!

The extent of your stupidity beggars belief.

It was a crime. It was Rove. Deal with it.

onlyabill - it's not that i... (Below threshold)
goy:

onlyabill - it's not that it's hard to understand, it's just that it's not complicated enough to draw attention away from Joe Wilson's lack of credibility, which is the only issue of any significance in this entire affair. "Who 'outed' Plame" has been an exercise in press obfuscation since Novak provided the opportunity. Stupid, stupid Novak.

Wilson did lie about his wife's involvement in his selection. That's now public record.

He didn't lie about what he found in Niger. He assumed the CIA agreed with his conclusion, also now public record. The problem arose when he arrogantly attacked the administration based on that assumption. The flipflops he's executed since have been an attempt to misdirect from his own misdeeds.

http://tinyurl.com/7c4n4 - check the comments for the Timeline.

Tom... the traffic laws bei... (Below threshold)

Tom... the traffic laws being antiquated is totally different than the protection of covert identities. All the SOF guys do manage to keep their work secret. Their wives & families very rarely know anything about where, or what, the "job" is.

And if one of the SOF spouses EVER outed the operator - it would compromise the mission, and potentially cause mortal danger. I can't imagine that even Joe Wilson (who was desperate to keep a plum-book assignment) would do something that might cause his own wife harm.

Therefore - she wasn't likely to be in any harm. And he never had any concern when having her announced at a State Dinner in the 90s... gimme a break. Valerie Plame Wilson was a desk jockey. Her husband is a gossiping social climber. Unfortunately - so is Robert Novak.

No doubt she took the se... (Below threshold)

No doubt she took the secret CIA transporter to beam into work each day instead of driving into the front gate. The fact that someone works at the CIA is not a secret.

Just like the Director of the Directorate of Operations. Why can't I find his name anywhere?

Wilson never worked for ... (Below threshold)
Jason:

Wilson never worked for the CIA, but his wife, Valerie Plame, is an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction.

I really hate to jump into the middle of this, but Novak never stated that Valerie Plame was a covert operative, as the above quote shows. So, what I'm wondering is, what difference does it make that people knew that "Valerie Plame" worked for the CIA? I assume covert agents don't use their real names.

"... this has got to be the... (Below threshold)

"... this has got to be the stupidest post I have ever seen on this blog, and believe me, it's got some competition."

The commie-left said the same thing about Den Beste's post that asserted that France would nuke us if we attacked Iraq. They were wrong then too. France launched its missiles, but Our Leader used his special God powers to destroy the warheads before they re-entered the atmosphere.

Darwin FinchWrong ... (Below threshold)
Darwin Finch is a Dumbass:

Darwin Finch

Wrong again, dumbass:

1. Total lie. Never sad Cheney sent him to Africa.

2. Gross and politically-motivated misinterpretation of what Joe Wilson actually said.

I see nothing about Valerie... (Below threshold)
Smitty Werbenmanjensen:

I see nothing about Valerie Plame Wilson being in CIA employ there.

Hmmm.1. Well. Loo... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

1. Well. Looks like the goof-ball liberals are out in force today. Must be the weather.

2. "Just like the Director of the Directorate of Operations. Why can't I find his name anywhere?"

Christ you bastards bore the crap out of me:

http://ctstudies.com/Document/911_Commission_Pavitt_Pistole_Testimony.html

" JAMES L. PAVITT

DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF OPERATIONS, CIA "

Google: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=lang_en&q=cia+ddo+2005&btnG=Search

Google, yet to be discovered by liberals. I bet when one of you twits finally discovers Google, you'll get a f-ing Medal Of Honor and get your name in the damn history books.

I sure hope it happens pretty soon, this is getting old.

Valerie Plame Wilson was... (Below threshold)
Tom:

Valerie Plame Wilson was a desk jockey. Her husband is a gossiping social climber. Unfortunately - so is Robert Novak.

...and yet, for some reason, folks are going to jail and a federal investigation into this matter is rapidly picking up steam. Odd, when you consider how very little harm has been done--given, of course, that Plame's outing is of no real consequence.

One can only conclude that Patrick Fitzgerald must be an undercover Democratic Party operative who hates America.

(Whoop--sorry, I meant Democrat party operative. I keep forgetting that we're no longer extending the courtesy of referring to the Democratic Party by its proper name.)

Man you wingers are dumb, w... (Below threshold)
Right Wing Dumbass:

Man you wingers are dumb, while talking about "logic".

1) Plame's neighbor was publicly quoted as saying she had no idea Plame was CIA.
2) Wilson said he went on behalf of the VP's office, which right wing desk jockeys later (purposefully) misconstrued as him saying that he said he was sent by Cheney. True.
3) If you still believe that Iraq tried to buy yellowcake from Niger, then you're hopeless. This has been widely disproven.
4) Plame's identity was not a secret. She had a public persona as an energy consultant working for a consulting company. And yes, part of that persona included the fact that she was married to Wilson. What was secret was that she, and the company she worked for, were CIA.
5) There has been no evidence that Plame's identity as a CIA agent (note, I'm not saying Plame's identity, as in her name, dumbasses) was widely known, other than a statement by Novak and followup by the usual right wing talking heads.

This disagreement all derives from the fact that you wingers get your "news" from highly dubious sources, the same ones that told you that Iraq was an imminent threat to the US in 2003, the same ones that told you that Al Qaeda was an exaggeration by Clinton to distract from his Lewinsky scandal in 1996 and 1997, and the same ones that tell you that success in Iraq is just around the corner.

Maybe you should find new news sources, dumbasses. And please refrain from using the word "logic" until you can make a logical argument. For example, if all of your argument is contingent on the word of one dubious source (Novak), and is contrary to all other available information, this is not a good argument.

Found this though the swamp... (Below threshold)
Gary Ruppert:

Found this though the swamp of braindead leftists at Atrios.

Is this blog always so infested by total morons?

I thought the big deal abou... (Below threshold)
BD:

I thought the big deal about the Who's Who entry was the name "Plame" as opposed to "Wilson".

Supposedly, when she married Wilson she took his name both personally and professionally - she was "Valerie Wilson" to friends, family and colleagues.

One of the few places where she was still "Valerie Plame" was in Joe Wilson's Who's Who entry.

Presumably, if someone was specifically trying to blow her cover in retaliation, they would have used the name everyone knew her by - Valerie Wilson. However, if someone leaked/mentioned that nepotism was somehow involved in his being chosen to go to Niger (i.e., trying to undermine his credibility, not trying to punish him by outing his wife), a journalist (Novak) might simply have pulled down his copy of Who's Who and found the "Valerie Plame" reference and used that name.

Is this blog always so i... (Below threshold)

Is this blog always so infested by total morons?

Dunno, Gary; first time here. How often are YOU here?

Anyways..The NRO h... (Below threshold)
Gary Ruppert:

Anyways..

The NRO has already proved that Plame was outed in the mid-1990s.

As well, a lot of this investigation is just a ghosthunt

Well.. hopefully there's fe... (Below threshold)
Gary Ruppert:

Well.. hopefully there's fewer stupid leftists around. Or else we'll be forced to smack them around and expose their their lies.

This thread is definitely i... (Below threshold)
Mike:

This thread is definitely infested with morons. Moonbats denying reality are abound.

It always nice to see what the mental midgets are thinking on the other side though. So please keep up the whacko postings and the uninformed opinions. It's good reading!

Michael Scott posted:... (Below threshold)

Michael Scott posted:

I don't see why every wingnut takes it on face value that she was a "desk jockey." SHE WAS A NOC, PEOPLE!

Do you think the CIA kept her with that classification out of inertia? Or do you think it just might be possible that the "desk jockey" story is A LIE TO COVER UP HER CONTINUING COVERT STATUS?

Wow! Deception -- from the CIA? Who'da thunk?

A NOC wouldn't be publicly known as a desk jockey at Langley, no way, no how!

This is so idiotic that it defies belief.

It reminds me of a line from a Laurel and Hardy movie where they play henpecked husbands.

They want to go to a convention and engage in a little hanky-panky (or what passed for that in those days) but don't want their wives to know-

Stan:

"I know! We'll go to the convention and tell our wives that we're going to the convention, and they'll never be the wiser."

Plame was blown before 1997 when she was reassigned to Washington and a desk (this fact makes anyone's "outing" of her not a crime under the applicable statute due to the five-year limitation).

It was suspected, but not proven that Aldrich Ames supplied her name to the Russians, but the other instance falls right at the foot of the CIA:

from an Andrew McCarthy article in National Review discussing an amicus brief from the media in the Judith Miller case:

The press informs the judges that the CIA itself "inadvertently" compromised Plame by not taking appropriate measures to safeguard classified documents that the Agency routed to the Swiss embassy in Havana. In the Washington Times article — you remember, the one the press hypes when it reports to the federal court but not when it reports to consumers of its news coverage — Gertz elaborates that "[t]he documents were supposed to be sealed from the Cuban government, but [unidentified U.S.] intelligence officials said the Cubans read the classified material and learned the secrets contained in them."

Once somebody has been blown, you can't unblow them and blow them again.

Game over.

It's all about sex, let's just move on.

Hmmm.1. "4. Lied a... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

1. "4. Lied about his wife's covert status (the neighbors all knew who his wife was employed by)."

Actually this is wrong. This assertion is derived from Scott of PowerlineBlog, who uncritically repeated it from a reader to emailed him, and there is no justification or proof of this anywhere that I could find.

Adjust your thinking accordingly, or don't. It's not like I care all that much.

2. "I see nothing about Valerie Plame Wilson being in CIA employ there."

What? You didn't see the previous 4,500+ posts that basically said the same thing?

Try being original. At least write it backwards or something so it'll amuse.

3. "I don't see why every wingnut takes it on face value that she was a "desk jockey." SHE WAS A NOC, PEOPLE!".

Wonderful. You people finally watched "Mission Impossible". Here's a clue. You can be on a NOC list, but I'd suggest it would be pretty damn stupid to be on a NOC list and still work at Langely i.e. CIA headquarters.

I think it's possible that people, dealing with covert nuclear weapons proliferation nonsense, might be a little hesitant to deal with someone who used to work at the CIA headquarters.

What Plame going to do? Just shrug it off and say it was just a summer job?

...

Good luck Kevin, they're all yours.

Goof-ball liberals? Morons... (Below threshold)
Tom:

Goof-ball liberals? Morons? Brain-dead leftists? Oh, the brutal sting of the sardonic riposte! The razor wit! The crushing blow of Truth Absolute! Gentlemen, please! Your words, they hurt! I can stand no more!

I...I think I need to go cry on Susan Sarandon's shoulder for a few. Then I'll hug a tree full of baby seals.

*sniff*

goy said: "Wilson did lie a... (Below threshold)
js:

goy said: "Wilson did lie about his wife's involvement in his selection. That's now public record."

Wilson did not lie. He was the "beard" -- the front man who draws attention to himself so that someone else can work in relative anonymity. Plame had the perfect cover as the wife of a diplomat. Once in country she could do her spy thing behind the scenes while Wilson did his diplomat thing in front of the cameras. That's why Wilson denied that she had anything to do with his mission. Think about it for a second. If it were your spouse in the CIA would you draw attention to her or admit her status thus endangering her life?

Some of these angry little ... (Below threshold)
martin:

Some of these angry little donkeys should get a clue: you want to find out where Plame works?
1. Get her address in one of many ways available when you know her name, her husband's name, and where her husband works (from WW).
2. Follow her to work one morning.
3. Not complicated (for some).

The point is that her identity as a CIA employee could have easily been ascertained at any time after 1999 when Joltin' Joe wrote his first pathetic little Who's Who entry.

Wow. So many lying liars. ... (Below threshold)
Max Renn:

Wow. So many lying liars. Please illustrate any of the ridiculous rantings and frothings that you indulge in, freepi, are anything other than cover for treacherous slime.

Rove. Libby. Probably Feith.

Oh, and please defend Franklin, too.

Ed says:"I thin... (Below threshold)
sytrek:

Ed says:

"I think it's possible that people, dealing with covert nuclear weapons proliferation nonsense, might be a little hesitant to deal with someone who used to work at the CIA headquarters.

What Plame going to do? Just shrug it off and say it was just a summer job?"

In a similar vein, I think that WMD dealers might be a little hesitant to deal with someone whose husband works as a CIA contractor for WMD hunts and brags about it in the NYT. What was Plame going to do? Just shrug it off and say "I do not bring my work home?"

Hmmm.@ Ring Wing D... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

@ Ring Wing Dumbass, actually more likely a "Left Wing Dumbass", but that would be impolite.

1) Plame's neighbor was publicly quoted as saying she had no idea Plame was CIA.

Correct.

2) Wilson said he went on behalf of the VP's office, which right wing desk jockeys later (purposefully) misconstrued as him saying that he said he was sent by Cheney. True.

Wrong as hell. Wilson has repeatedly stated that we was sent by the VP.

3) If you still believe that Iraq tried to buy yellowcake from Niger, then you're hopeless. This has been widely disproven.

Wrong as hell, as proven in the SCCI report.

4) Plame's identity was not a secret. She had a public persona as an energy consultant working for a consulting company. And yes, part of that persona included the fact that she was married to Wilson. What was secret was that she, and the company she worked for, were CIA.

Correct. However you left out that she worked at Langely. Tough being a covert agent and reporting to Langely every day.

5) There has been no evidence that Plame's identity as a CIA agent (note, I'm not saying Plame's identity, as in her name, dumbasses) was widely known, other than a statement by Novak and followup by the usual right wing talking heads.

Wrong again. Look at the friend of the court, legal filing made by the MSM, particularly the New York Times.

The CIA itself has outed Plame at least twice.

But hey, you win a prize. At least you're not off in some wonderland of fluffy clouds and pink unicorns, which most liberals seem to inhabit.

Congrats.

My gawd, the rightwingnazis... (Below threshold)
POed Liberal:

My gawd, the rightwingnazis on this board are total morons.

TOTAL MORONS.

Where does it ever say that she is a CIA Op?

It never fails to amaze me that the rightwingnutnazis feel that she could not work at the CIA headquarters and be an undercover agent.
You people are totally stupid. How many other undercover agents work there who are undercover? Probably thousands and thousands, because driving there is the same as announcing that you are an undercover agent.

What are undercover agents supposed to do, you fucking morons? Live on a cot there?


Hey JC Christian-H... (Below threshold)
John Davies:

Hey JC Christian-

Here's what Denbeste said:

Let's clear something out of the way, first: once the tanks cross the Iraqi border, nothing can save Saddam. The only thing France could do once that takes place which could conceivably bring us up short would be to threaten to nuke us, and that's not going to happen.

Maybe you should have done a web search like I did before saying something that wrong.

Ms. Plame had not been a ... (Below threshold)
Casey:

Ms. Plame had not been a covert agent for 6 years by the time the Novak article appeared. The current reason given is that the agency brought her "in from the cold" because they feared that she had been outed by Aldridge Aimes. Novak has repeatedly stated that he talked to the CIA and he has stated that they essentially ok'd his use of her identity. We do know that it is illegal for the CIA to use undercover operatives in the United States that would be the job of the FBI. So we know that the 6 years in the states leaves this situation out of the realm of the "Agee" statute, due to the 5 year time limit in that statute. We should realistically wonder why the CIA would have a previously "outed" undercover agent "operating" in the United States. Occam's razor gives us a reasonable answer: Ms. Plame was not an undercover agent. If Ms. Plame was an undercover agent operating in the United States then she and her "handlers" would have been engaging in criminal conduct. That, of course, involves the term "frogwalk".

JS:Plame had the ... (Below threshold)
sytrek:


JS:Plame had the perfect cover as the wife of a diplomat. Once in country she could do her spy thing behind the scenes while Wilson did his diplomat thing in front of the cameras. That's why Wilson denied that she had anything to do with his mission. Think about it for a second. If it were your spouse in the CIA would you draw attention to her or admit her status thus endangering her life?


Given the established public nature of her maiden name documented above, the day Wilson's editorial appeared in the NYT Valerie Plame went from being the wife of Joseph Wilson, former ambassador, retired, to the wife of Joseph Wilson, CIA contractor that investigates WMD and can not keep his mouth shut.

It is clear from the commen... (Below threshold)
POed Liberal:

It is clear from the comments of the reichwingnutnazis morons on this board that they are trying to simply abolish the CIA. After all, they don't agree that you can be undercover and work at the CIA too. And so we must abolish the CIA.

You guys are so stupid. But then you are conservatives, and in today's conservamoron right, to be right is to be stupid.

And let's not forget:... (Below threshold)
jmaster:

And let's not forget:

NIGER DOES NOT EQUAL AFRICA!

Darwin Finch - Are... (Below threshold)
Paul:

Darwin Finch -

Are we back to semantics and what the definition of "is" is? How refreshing!

Joe Wilson screamed from the rooftops that Bush lied about Niger Uranium. Only for the bi-partisan US Senate Select Intelligence Committee, CIA and British Butler Report... ALL say that Wilson's report SUPPORTED their assessment that Iraq was seeking Uranium. Are they ALL wrong and only Joe right? Seriously?

This is one of the biggest non-scandal scandals in recent history. Watching the seething anger and gotcha politics on the Left is most disturbing and explains why they are losing more and more power.

Pardon me if I find it hard to believe that the Left has a new found concern for the security of our forces when they are leading the charge to show more Abu Graib pictures, NYTimes publishing tail numbers of CIA planes, and giving the Islamofascists moral support with their sloppy rhetoric (comparing the US to Nazis, Gulag Archipelogo...)

Pathetic! But keep on flogging away!

And for all the frucking re... (Below threshold)
POed Liberal:

And for all the frucking reichwingnutnazis, most real Americans don't agree with you fascists. Approval of Fascist George's handling of the FakeIraq War is down to 38 %.

I used to agree that the RepukeliKKKan party was not the same as being a fascist. That is no longer true.

Hmmm."What are und... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

"What are undercover agents supposed to do, you fucking morons? Live on a cot there?"

Internet. Several hundred million square miles of land on planet Earth.

hmmmm.

I know, how about NOT working at CIA headquarters and maybe working ... and this is a stretch I admit ... somewhere other than CIA headquarters?

We are after all talking about 1998 - 2005 right? What? The CIA doesn't understand what a VPN, private secure network or the Internet is?

Well.

Actually now that I consider just how often the CIA has mucked things up. That actually might be the case after all.

In more news of the non-sca... (Below threshold)
POed Liberal:

In more news of the non-scandal scandal, which most real Americans agree is treason, Rove's henchmen have now been deposed by the Grand Jury.

Time is running out for Traitor Rove and his treasonous conflation of CIA damage and politics.

Yeah, the media has continu... (Below threshold)
Gary Ruppert:

Yeah, the media has continually cheered for the terrorists over the American soldiers. The Media has been a big enemy of America in the War on Terrorism.

This is a non-scandal, stoked by a bunch of hypocrites fresh off claiming Plame was outed in the mid 1990s.

This is a massive conspiracy against Our President, fueled by hatred.

Far be it from me to intrud... (Below threshold)
James Bond:

Far be it from me to intrude, old boy, but this little discussion put me in mind of dilemma faced by my creator, Sir Ian Fleming, during his first, fevered attempts to write about my thrilling adventures. In spite of his eagerness to put his wish-fulfillment fantasies to paper, Sir Ian found himself face-to-face with a seemingly intractable conundrum. You see, he had already decided that he wanted the phonemic expression of my name to be associated in the readers mind with sophistication, danger, and raving heterosexuality. He thought he could achieve this end through neurolinguistic programming, that is, by means of subtle but powerful repetition of my name through the course of my adventures. Alas, every time Sir Ian instructed me to utter the words, "My name is Bond. James Bond," Sir Ian was unable to proceed. My poor creator was beset by the overwhelming yet utterly irrational thought that, because I had revealed my name, I had also revealed my identity as a spy for Her Majesty’s Secret Service. Blind to the obvious truth that espionage requires a break in the link that normally occurs between ones name and ones identity, Sir Ian fell into a deep depression. He was convinced that every time I spoke my name, my “cover,” was, as we say in the fictional spy business, “blown.” Finally, after much anguish, Sir Ian sought therapeutic consultation with another of his characters, the intriguing Miss Pussy Galore. Not many know this, but Miss Pussy was, in addition to being a reformed crime vixen, a certified specialist in rational emotive therapy. This branch of therapy requires the patient to challenge irrational thoughts and specious logic with reason. Over time, Sir Ian finally realized that I could repeat my name endlessly--as long as none of my enemies (or friends, for that matter) knew about my connection to M16. Sir Ian’s breakthrough was what we had all been waiting for. Fortunately for me, and for legions of my fans, I was able to say, “My name is Bond. James Bond," without compromising my fictional mission up until the day Sir Ian died. And, of course, my name will ever be associated with suave sophistication and derring-do. Rational Emotive Therapy, what will they think of next? And if it worked for Sir Ian, who knows, perhaps it might work for you, too.

POed Liberal:Your ... (Below threshold)
earl:

POed Liberal:

Your comments read like an 8 year old wrote them, and you're calling others stupid? Why don't you take an English class or two and come back after your mom takes your training wheels off of your bike.

Hmmmm."I used to a... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

"I used to agree that the RepukeliKKKan party was not the same as being a fascist. That is no longer true."

That looks fun. Let me try.

"Yeah! And another thing you ChristerFascistNaziHalliburtonChimpies! "

"Down with the BushHitlerHalliburtonPollutionOilMongers!"

"You damn RepubliStaziWarBastardHellPeddlers!"

Frankly I don't see what's so popular about those goofy insults. I suppose it's amusing if your humor is along lines of fondling shit. But what the hell, if it amuses you, go for it. It's not like it'll actually impress anyone.

Sweet! We're on the brink ... (Below threshold)
Tom:

Sweet! We're on the brink of 'yo mama' jokes!

Gee Kevin, I knew you were ... (Below threshold)
JEW:

Gee Kevin, I knew you were looking for ways to get the moonbat readership up, but did you have to make it so easy? Oh yeah a guess you did.

Far as I’m concerned, the real story here is how someone like Carville gets away with the personal attacks he does. He can’t debate a point so he calls his adversary spineless and laughs. I don’t blame Novak one bit for standing up and walking out, I’m surprised he didn’t cold cock him. CNN proves bias through the moderators handling of this sorry excuse for a debate.

VPN, private secure netw... (Below threshold)
POed Liberal:

VPN, private secure network

Geezus, a semiliterate repukelican moron.

Hey moron, when were VPNs invented? 2000, mebbe? Actually, they were invented in 2000, but have not really been functional until about 2002 or so.

And, bozo, you will recall (or probably you won't being a conservadopo) that the feds are just fucking incompetent computer types. The FBI just spent 170 mill inventing a case-control system which .... didn't work.

So, another totally stupid suggestion from a conservamoron. SIGH!! You can't get blood from a turnip, I recall, and you can't expect a conservaturd to actually think.

Did I miss the part of that... (Below threshold)
dave:

Did I miss the part of that entry where it mentioned Mrs. Wilson's employer, cover or otherwise?

No, I did not.

Try again, brownshirts...

Dave, repeat after me... (Below threshold)
sytrek:

Dave, repeat after me

Given the established public nature of her maiden name documented above, the day Wilson's editorial appeared in the NYT Valerie Plame went from being the wife of Joseph Wilson, former ambassador, retired, to the wife of Joseph Wilson, CIA contractor that investigates WMD and can not keep his mouth shut.

Where in the article does i... (Below threshold)
POed Liberal:

Where in the article does it mention that she is CIA?

Conservaturds can't read, clearly.

OK, let's get to the facts.... (Below threshold)
Chris:

OK, let's get to the facts. I have yet to see anyone on this or any other board post anything about Valerie Plame's work that didn't seem to be totally informed by spy movies. Do you really think every covert agent is running a dry cleaners with a secret door in the back? Covert agents can be associated with the powers that be in their country. They can even be married to an ambassador. As so many posters have pointed out, people knowing that Wilson was married to Plame was never the issue.The one CIA guy who gets widely quoted as her "former boss," who says she wasn't covert, retired from the Agency in the early 90s. I wouldn't say he's exactly dealing with up to date information.

And by the way, Novak never said he got her name from Who's Who. He said later, in his ass-covering phase, that her name could be gotten from Who's Who. What he actually said was "they gave me her name and I used it."

Also, I'm waiting to see one link to an authoratative source quoting Wilson as saying Cheney sent him to Niger. He has very specifically stated that he never thought Chaney even knew he went.

And he did not report that the Iraqis met with the Niger government about purchasing uranium. The former Prime Minister of Niger told him the Iraqis contacted Niger to talk about trade, which he assumed meant uranium. When they actually met, the Iraqis never brought it up. Funny how they forgot the very purpose of their meeting. And the US ambassador to Niger agreed with his report, BTW.

And to repeat what has been said here earlier, despite the fact that Republican apologists keep saying "everyone knew" she worked for the CIA, please find one post where a friend or neighbor supports that.

Oh, but I forgot; their friends and neighbors, the Ambassador to Niger, all liars. What an easy way to dismiss inconvenient facts.

I enjoy cruising around the blogs as much as anyone, but when you rely on them as your only source of info you're susceptible to a lot of bullshit. Just because something appears on a bunch of right wing blogs doesn't make it fact. Try checking primary sources once in a while.

The most frustrating part is that we keep talking about this stuff, which is exactly what the Republicans want. It doesn't matter if Wilson's the biggest liar in the world. The issue is whether Rove ands/or others in the White House used Valerie Plame's status to try and smear Wilson. Maybe disclosing her covert status was a byproduct, maybe they didn't realize she was covert, maybe they wouldn't have done it if they knew the consequences. That's for Fitzgerald and possibly the courts to figure out. But focusing on whether Wilson made claims he couldn't support, or exaggerated his role, is a classic defensive red herring. It's kind of like having a bunch of witnesses, and a motive, and DNA evidence, and opportunity, but convincing a jury that a murderer is innocent because a glove didn't fit. It's called taking your eye off the ball.

It's not about Plame, ...or... (Below threshold)
ColBatGuano:

It's not about Plame, ...or Wilson, ...or yellowcake!

Please go back and read Wilson's original Op-Ed and
Novakula's traitorous article. The Deserter-In-Chief
freaked-out and sent KKKarl to destroy the Wilsons
in a desperate attempt to conceal the FACT that the CIA
sent someone (it doesn't matter who!) to Niger--in
direct response to a REQUEST FROM CHENEY'S OFFICE.

All of the White House denials focus on WHO caused
the CIA to go snooping around in Africa--and NOT
about the results of the snooping. (The yellowcake
story had already been exposed as a fraud by the
time Wilson went public.)

So, why is this important? ...because, the MAIN
POINT of Wilson's Op-Ed was that Cheney's office
asked the question, and thus, the answer MUST
HAVE BEEN reported to Cheney's office by the CIA --
no later than mid-March 2002.

Wilson's Op-Ed revealed that Cheney (and the rest
of the criminal administration) KNEW FULL-WELL that
the "nookluler threat" BU__SH__! was a lie BEFORE
they started pitching it to the American people.

So, why "out" Valerie? ...because they needed to pin
the CIA snooping on someone OTHER THAN CHENEY.

...may they all rot in hell,

CBG

"An awkward, unscientific lie is often as ineffectual as the truth."
--Mark Twain

Somebody ought to notify Ma... (Below threshold)
jmaster:

Somebody ought to notify Malkin about this thread.

It would make a great case study for her new book.

Hmmm.@ POed Libera... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

@ POed Liberal

1. "Geezus, a semiliterate repukelican moron."

It Speaks! Astonishing really.

2. "Hey moron, when were VPNs invented? 2000, mebbe? Actually, they were invented in 2000, but have not really been functional until about 2002 or so."

Actually they were invented around 1999. Prior to that you had dedicated lines, which is why I included them. Can you read or do you just fake it?

3. "And, bozo, you will recall (or probably you won't being a conservadopo) that the feds are just fucking incompetent computer types. The FBI just spent 170 mill inventing a case-control system which .... didn't work."

That's because the FBI isn't in the business of computer systems. The intelligence agencies have been for the past 50+ years. The biggest supercomputers in the world are owned and operated by the American intelligence agencies.

You, and I say this politely, schmuck.

4. "So, another totally stupid suggestion from a conservamoron. SIGH!! You can't get blood from a turnip, I recall, and you can't expect a conservaturd to actually think.""

Actually you can get blood from a turnip, if you put it there first. But that's logic, and thus for you, forbidden.

Ahh the wonderfully erratic writings of the verbosely goofy. Amusing only to themselves, and witty in only their minds as well. A characteristic found only in other similar beings, such as the illustrative dung beetle.

Like most liberals, but most especially "POed Liberal", who doesn't seem to understand the apostrophe, the dung beetle spends it's day rolling in a big ball of shit.

Run dung "POed Liberal" beetle, run. The future for you is so bright and beautiful with worlds full of shit ahead of you.

It almost makes me weep with joy.

It doesn't matter if Wil... (Below threshold)
earl:

It doesn't matter if Wilson's the biggest liar in the world. The issue is whether Rove ands/or others in the White House used Valerie Plame's status to try and smear Wilson. Maybe disclosing her covert status was a byproduct, maybe they didn't realize she was covert, maybe they wouldn't have done it if they knew the consequences.

I thought this was all about the fact that she was covert (or not?). What's wrong with smearing Wilson, that is, if Wilson deserves to be smeared? It's not illegal for Rove or Bush to not trust Wilson.

What's really interesting a... (Below threshold)
A Hermit:

What's really interesting about the who's who entry is the list of Wilson's experience as a diplomat in both central Africa and Iraq.Con the right wing narrative it makes it sound like he was maybe actually qualified for a fact finding mission re: Iraqi shopping for uranium in Africa...

The most frustrating par... (Below threshold)
POed Liberal:

The most frustrating part is that we keep talking about this stuff, which is exactly what the Republicans want. It doesn't matter if Wilson's the biggest liar in the world. The issue is whether Rove ands/or others in the White House used Valerie Plame's status to try and smear Wilson. Maybe disclosing her covert status was a byproduct, maybe they didn't realize she was covert, maybe they wouldn't have done it if they knew the consequences. That's for Fitzgerald and possibly the courts to figure out. But focusing on whether Wilson made claims he couldn't support, or exaggerated his role, is a classic defensive red herring. It's kind of like having a bunch of witnesses, and a motive, and DNA evidence, and opportunity, but convincing a jury that a murderer is innocent because a glove didn't fit. It's called taking your eye off the ball.

This is the Conservaturd Distraction Ploy.

Just keep reciting "Rove is a traitor. Why do repukes support traitors who informed other traitors about the identity of CIA operatives?"

Just don't take the bait. Rove is a SELF-CONFESSED traitor, and that is the only important fact in this whole sordid conflation of treason and politics that is the modern Repukelican party.

[banging my head against th... (Below threshold)
G Spot1:

[banging my head against the wall]

How many times do you guys have to be told this:

Valerie Plame's name wasn't a secret.

The fact that Valerie Plame was married to Joe Wilson wasn't a secret.

The fact that Valerie Plame worked for the CIA WAS a secret.

This whole thing is a waste... (Below threshold)
bill:

This whole thing is a waste of time. The law requires her to have been an undercover agent working overseas within 5 years of the disclosure. Her husband has admitted that definition does not apply to hear. No crime was committed under that statute. Should any administration out covert CIA employees for any reason, whether their husband is a liar or not? No. But under the terms of the statute, no crime was committed, based upon Mr. Wilson's own statements.

Can someone please explain ... (Below threshold)
Paul:

Can someone please explain to me how the -

- Senate Intelligence Select Committee
- CIA
- British Government (per the Butler Report)

can ALL say that Wilson's report SUPPORTED their assessment about Iraq trying to get African Uranium, and Joe Wilson is not a LIAR for pushing the opposite impression to the world media? As ususal, the partisan media got ahead of the facts and left many people (who became emotionally invested) in a lurch. I imagine it sucks being on the wrong side of history.

If I had a weak Lefty conspiratorial mind, I would almost have to think that Joe Wilson was a double agent working for the Saudis.

Hmmm."What's reall... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

"What's really interesting about the who's who entry is the list of Wilson's experience as a diplomat in both central Africa and Iraq.Con the right wing narrative it makes it sound like he was maybe actually qualified for a fact finding mission re: Iraqi shopping for uranium in Africa..."

Actually you need to read the SCCI report on this. It turns out that three groups met over Wilson's proposed trip to Niger. INR, WINPAC and, Plame's, CPD.

INR thought it was a complete waste of time

WINPAC thought Wilson didn't have any skills, background or credibility to do the job.

CPD thought, what the hell we don't have any other ideas, so they sent Wilson anyways.

Frankly I've always suspected most of what the CIA does is based on "what the hell, nobody has a better idea" but this is the first official proof I've ever read.

Let me get this straight. ... (Below threshold)
Lew Clark:

Let me get this straight. We have a supper secret covert agent masquerading as an Ambassador's wife. Works for me!

"Hey Abdul who was that lady you were having lunch with yesterday who was asking all the questions about our nuclear weapons program?

Oh that was the American Ambassador's wife.

Whew. I thought she might be a CIA agent. Good to know she's someone we know we can trust not to share our secrets with the Americans."

GSpot1:That Plame ... (Below threshold)
sytrek:

GSpot1:

That Plame worked for the CIA might have been a secret, but Wilson irrevocably associated her name with the CIA.
Again, repeat after me:
Given the established public nature of her maiden name documented above, the day Wilson's editorial appeared in the NYT Valerie Plame went from being the wife of Joseph Wilson, former ambassador, retired, to the wife of Joseph Wilson, CIA contractor that goes on WMD hunts and can not keep his mouth shut.

Nowhere in the entry does i... (Below threshold)
Robio:

Nowhere in the entry does it state: Valerie Elise Plame, Apr. 3, 1998. Covert Central Intelligence Agency Agent.

The thing about being a CIA employee is to NOT TELL anyone you're CIA. You yourself, doesn't disappear.

Jackass!

Valerie Plame worked for th... (Below threshold)
adiabat:

Valerie Plame worked for the CIA. She was not a covert operative. If she was, she shouldn't have contributed money to the DNC and Al Gore's Campaign using her real name and the name of the CIA division where she worked. It's public record. Look it up.
Only smoke, here. No fire.

Hmmm.You know goof... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

You know goofing with "POed Liberal" is amusing and all, but this whole thing is a complete waste of time.

All this stuff will come out in due time, and THEN we can all beat each other up over this nonsense.

Until then this is just the rhetorical version of masturbation.

And ultimately just as futile, but hey, go ahead.

Just wash your hands afterwards ok?

bye all, time for dinner.

I'll repeat what many of th... (Below threshold)
Jay:

I'll repeat what many of the more "intelligent" individuals have written here. It was NO SECRET that Joe Wilson's wife was Valerie Plame. Never the issue.

The ISSUE is that Novak revealed her identity as a CIA operative. Her "identity". IDENTITY. Get it? Not her name, her IDENTITY. This book reveals her name, not her identity as a CIA NOC. Novak did that for us, with help from a very vengeful treasonous bastard. If you can't understand that, you are either insanely biased or incredibly stupid. Or both. Probably both.

Here's one absolute fact:</... (Below threshold)
johno:

Here's one absolute fact:

If it had been the Clinton Administration who outed a CIA asset, the wingnuts would be screaming treason for time immemorial.

You know it's true.

But instead they spin as if it's no big deal.

Adiabat, Do you have... (Below threshold)
sytrek:

Adiabat,
Do you have a link to that information?

The ISSUE is that Novak ... (Below threshold)
POed Liberal:

The ISSUE is that Novak revealed her identity as a CIA operative. Her "identity". IDENTITY. Get it? Not her name, her IDENTITY. This book reveals her name, not her identity as a CIA NOC. Novak did that for us, with help from a very vengeful treasonous bastard. If you can't understand that, you are either insanely biased or incredibly stupid. Or both. Probably both.

If you can't understand that, you are a repuke moron. The modern repukelikan party is full of really stupid people, because you need to be stupid to believe the fundamental tenets of Modern Repukelicanism.

It's not that they haven't tried to understand. It's just that they are unable, due to the genes they carry, to understand it.

Yeah, johno, and you'd be s... (Below threshold)
earl:

Yeah, johno, and you'd be spinnin'.

Heres a crazy thing to cons... (Below threshold)
Drscience:

Heres a crazy thing to consider. Maybe Valerie Plame didn't USE her real name when she was doing the whole "undercover agent" thing. Kind of defeats the whole idea that her maiden name being associated with Wilson "outs" her in some way.

The Clinton admin leaked cl... (Below threshold)
Bill:

The Clinton admin leaked classified info about Linda Tripp when it served their purposes, and I don't recall a bunch of liberals screaming in horror. Yes, I know the leaking of a CIA agent's name (if that was done, not proven yet) is a much bigger deal, but I think it can be said fairly clearly that the Dems are recent converts to the belief in the sacredness of confidential information. And I am a republican and all the republicans I know feel the same way - if anyone in the administration broke a law, they should be sacked. If they leaked truly confidential information, no matter what that information is to punish a political opponent, that person should be sacked. I felt the same way during the Clinton admin. Dems, did you?

Not only did Novak blow Pla... (Below threshold)
Aaaargh:

Not only did Novak blow Plame's cover, but in the process he ALSO blew the fact that the company she worked for was a CIA front company, potentially endangering the lives of everyone involved there, even if she herself was no longer out in the front lines spying wrt WMDs. Rove's treason has enormous repercussions to our national security and hanging is far too good for him and the rest of this treasonous bunch.

If someone in the Clinton administration had pulled this kind of treason, you moonbats would be screaming for heads to roll. But because it's one of your own, the Rove must be protected. It's disgusting.

Driving to her desk job at ... (Below threshold)
JT:

Driving to her desk job at Langley every day in her convertible. Yeah - some secret.

Riddle me this:Q: ... (Below threshold)
rickt:

Riddle me this:

Q: If an offense was not committed -- during the outing of Plame as covert agent -- why would the CIA ask the DoJ to get involved and launch an investigation?
A: ???

Q: Why -- having completed the first "discovery" and initial investigatory phases of the investigation -- would Fitzgerald continue with the investigation if he felt he did not have the evidence? As an experienced and dogged investigator/prosecutior, he knew that this trial (should it ever come to that) would be under an enormous amount of scrutiny. No investigator would try to pull off a case like this one without ample, non-circumstantial evidence.
A?

What I saw Novak quoted as ... (Below threshold)
Frank:

What I saw Novak quoted as saying was that he found out from publicly available information, I haven't seen a quote from him that specifically refers to the Who's Who publication. If you can find this I would be interested in seeing it and I would also want to see that he meant it literally, and wasn't saying it dismissively or sarcastically.

If Plame wanted to remain covert why was Wilson being a blabbermouth and a figurehead? Wilson was going to the press with information she gave him and he expects the press not to want to know how he got it?

It has been rumored on at least one site that Novak himself is CIA.

At any rate it is hard to picture Novak looking through a Who's Who book to see who is or isn't a CIA agent, so that he as a "journalist" can come up with a story to write. Believe he must have better sources than the Who's Who book.

aaargh,Did you hav... (Below threshold)
Greg M:

aaargh,

Did you have the same outrage when the New York Times had a front page article about the covert CIA Airline? Wild guess on my part, but I guess "NO"

Just remember folks that it... (Below threshold)
POed Liberal:

Just remember folks that it is important to continue to recite, at every possible opportunity, that

1) Rove told Novak that Plame was CIA

2) Rove has admitted that

3) revealing a CIA op is treason.

This is the plain fact, and as Karl Rove himself will attest, repeating these facts frequently, unalterably and with great insistence will cement these facts in the public conscience.

Rove, although a traitor, is a good operative. We must use his methods.

"I don't see why every wing... (Below threshold)
Thomas:

"I don't see why every wingnut takes it on face value that she was a "desk jockey." SHE WAS A NOC, PEOPLE!"

Posted by: Michael Scott at August 5, 2005 03:36 PM

No covert agent walks through the front door of Langley everyday. That's why we doubt the status.

The other reason is that the CIA does not just ask you not to print an article outing covert agents, they call your boss and everyone else with authority at your organisation and ask the same thing. They didn't do it here. That also helped lead Novak to think she was not covert.

As to lies, people keep mentioning it but are failing (so far as I've read) to mention the biggie. Joe Wilson kept claiming that Bush lied since the 'Niger letters' were fakes... The guy assumed Bush based his speech on those and several investigations have shown he did not (not only that, but that the intelegence he did base it on was sound). So far that is not a lie on Wilson's part, but his refusal to clear the air and admit his accusation was flawed is a lie (half of you seem to not know any of this which just proves there is a problem)... just as every newspaper article on this that fails to make that clear is misleading if not a lie.

aargh - Did you ha... (Below threshold)
Paul:

aargh -

Did you have the same outrage when the NYTimes flogged Abu Graib for 2 months on their front pages? If Muslims are going to kill each other over a fake Koran desecration story, you don't have to be a ME scholar to figure out showing America's dirty laundry is going to jeapordize our troops in the field.

Also - did you have the same outrage when Dick Durbin likened our forces to Nazis and Gulag operators on the floor of the Senate?

I think some of you are con... (Below threshold)
JImbeaux:

I think some of you are confusing Novak's term "CIA operative" with "covert agent." He said later he never meant operative to be anything more than, well, a "player" in the CIA (or something like that). Other than that, assuming she was covert, no one outed her until David Corn published his piece about the thing.

And for a covert agent to get in her car every day and drive to HQ makes the CIA look worse than CONTROL.

Actually the points about W... (Below threshold)
MYOB:

Actually the points about Wilson lieing are as follows
1. He lied about how he got the mission (denied that he got it through his wife)

Since the CIA claim she had nothing to do with it then how is this proof of a lie? All it does is suggest that if Wilson is lying, then so is the CIA in order to protect him, but why would they do that if he was making their lives harder? Per the statement below, the CIA admits that Cheney was putting intense pressure on them to come up with something even though there was nothing to come up with. That they might have suggested to Wilson in passing, since he was the husband of a company member, that "The VP has been riding our asses on this thing..." could have given Wilson the idea that they were doing this as a result of the VP's constant demands for intel. But Wilson's original statement was that he felt Cheney was behind it which to him seemed logical. He only now makes the direct claim Cheney was behind it because he was being slimed by the WH as a result of it all. This makes the scenario I presented seem more logical.

2. He lied about Niger not being approached to sell the ore to Iraq (his own report said they did)

Our current embassador to Niger stated in the public hearings on the subject that they have no evidence to support any claims to this. They say they only have accusations bordering on hearsay and rumor. The fake Yellowcake memo has been traced back to Italy where the trail goes cold at that point. But because they cannot absolutely deny that there might have been such a meeting Wilson simply chose to take one position rather than the other based on his own understanding of the issue, which is that Niger was eager to get in on the United State's good graces and earn better trade relations at the time. If Iraq had come calling them they'd have told us.

3. He lied about the report itself (source - the congressional report)

What lie? It was his report? Why would he lie about a report he himself created and was under orders to make? What was the lie? When a person goes and carries out an open-aired investigation under orders from the government then that person has to file a report? What's there to lie about?

4. Lied about his wife's covert status (the neighbors all knew who his wife was employed by).

There have been plenty of news stories where his neighbors were interviewed and claimed they were shocked to hear about all of this. The notion that 'the neighbors all knew...' is just conjecture and B.S. so if you can prove this please do. When and where did he lie? Did it ever occur to you that there are in fact laws on the books even now that prevent CIA operatives from revealing the extent of their jobs to their own spouses???? He might not have known everything about what she did. Duh!

5. Lied about the report being sent to the Vice President's office (Mr. Cheney never knew of such a report)

How do you know whether Cheney did or didn't get it? Here the CIA has a report and you don't think they wouldn't have someone at the WH, Cheney included, not see it? There were newspaper articles before the war and during this time where, under condition of anonymity, high ranking people at the CIA stated that Cheney was making routine and daily trips to CIA HQ putting pressure on them to provide evidence if Iraq's WMD and terrorist ties. Not an uncommon thing to do if you ask me and nothing strange about it per say.
Cheney and Bush were desperate to find proof about the WMD and terror ties. And to think that Cheney wouldn't have is a deliberate refusal to consider all options simply so that you can discredit someone who has been proven right about everything so far. No WMD, no ties to terror. NADA!
It's more likely that Cheney lied than Wilson on the subject.

6. Lied about the truth of the 16 words (The British still maintain that their sources show the claim was true).

What lie did he make? So far the war has proven him and so many other people right about everything and this administration 100% wrong on everything.
The British are not making such a claim. Current members of the British government(who happen to be anti-war) all stated that their intelligence groups do not want to appear incompetent so they stick to stories that it might be true, not that it is true.
Even Tony Blair said the claims cannot be substantiated. Besides, followups on this statement suggest that British intelligence always investigate every lead in such areas, even if the leads are obviously bad or deceptive. They passed the lead on so that their CIA counterparts could put their own resources into confirming it but in both cases they could not. What the British are saying now is that they cannot confirm the intelligence of the claim but cannot deny it's possible truth because their job is not to take such risks even if it's obviously the whole thing was a scam. The stakes are too high in this game to ignore anything.

The issue here is that Bush and the rest of this administration were looking for any excuse to invade Iraq. They've wanted this since 1998 and sooner. PNAC documents from members of this admin and it's closest supporters support this. That Wesley Clark stated after 9/11 that he was told to make the claim that Iraq was involved during TV interviews proves this point. They were so eager to go in that they were unprepared when the opportunity did arrive so they had to start making shit up. Egyptian and Saudi intel groups claimed that Saddam was worried after the first gulf war that his weakened military status might encourage Iran to restart the war against them. The intel groups all stated that Saddam loved to brag about shit that he didn't havem including going so far as to brag about WMDs and WMD programs he didn't have so that it might give Iran pause in attacking. That this same chatter was picked up and assumed to be true rather than that of an evil blowhard trying to keep rumors of his military impotence quiet is not illogical.

"Is that enough for everyone? There is more as can be seen at many places on the net.

Yeah. All of them republican supporter run sites. I suggest you follow up on their claims and see where they got the info. It could turn out that it's all being circulated by the same people around and around with no legitimate source that can be substantiated.

Nor should you take anything I say as absolute fact. You should look it all up and follow from one source to another and see where it ends up cause right now the facts support *MY* claims more than they do yours.
But go ahead and think what you want. In this country you're free to be deluded by fascist rhetoric.

MYOB'
.

From <a href="http://www.fa... (Below threshold)
earl:

From http://www.factcheck.org/article337.html

July 14, 2003 – Robert Novak’s " Mission to Niger" column is published. This is the first published mention of Joseph Wilson’s wife’s name, her employment at the CIA, and her role in his trip to Niger. In the sixth of ten paragraphs, Novak writes, “Wilson never worked for the CIA, but his wife, Valerie Plame, is an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction. Two senior administration officials told me Wilson 's wife suggested sending him to Niger to investigate the Italian report. The CIA says its counter-proliferation officials selected Wilson and asked his wife to contact him.” The column does not describe her as a covert agent, then, but it does name her as “Valerie Plame” – her maiden and cover name. Novak gives conflicting accounts of whether Mrs. Wilson instigated her husband’s trip or was asked by others to do so. (Novak, " The Mission to Niger, ” Chicago Sun-Times, July 2003).

If Valerie Plame was her maiden AND cover name, then the fact that it was published in the Who's Who is entirely relevant.

Vlad D. Inhaler wrote, "... (Below threshold)
Steve White:

Vlad D. Inhaler wrote, "As, by the way, is the fact that someone also gave Novak the name of the cover company she worked for, thereby endangering every other operative using that cover."

That's a fair point. By the same principle, the recent NYT story on the CIA's use of private contractors for covert air services, specifically naming the companies and some of the employees, also endangers every person working in those companies (whether on the covert side or the legit side of the company).

Right?

Did you have the same ou... (Below threshold)
POed Liberal:

Did you have the same outrage when the NYTimes flogged Abu Graib for 2 months on their front pages? If Muslims are going to kill each other over a fake Koran desecration story, you don't have to be a ME scholar to figure out showing America's dirty laundry is going to jeapordize our troops in the field.

Did you have the same outrage when you found out that in addition to the abuse and torture of MEN at Abu Ghraib, that women and children were also sexually abused at Abu Ghraib? Did you have the same level of outrage when you found out that King Turdeater, our president, is concealing the pictures documenting that sexual abuse?

Prior to the Bush Admin, no US adminstration had ever previously engaged in torture. But now that the Bush Admin has engaged in torture, aren't you ashamed of your repukeliking president?

Wow. Kevin, did you get li... (Below threshold)

Wow. Kevin, did you get linked at the DU or something?

"No covert agent walks thro... (Below threshold)

"No covert agent walks through the front door of Langley everyday."

The Director of Operations as well as a hundred or so others do. Look him up, you won't find a name.

King Turdeater? Good god. ... (Below threshold)
bill:

King Turdeater? Good god. Grow up. Or at least become clever.

If Valerie Plame was her... (Below threshold)
Forrest Gump:

If Valerie Plame was her maiden AND cover name, then the fact that it was published in the Who's Who is entirely relevant.

So, really, Valerie's dad outed her by sending out engraved invitations to her wedding.

The plot thickens.

"The Director of Operations... (Below threshold)
Jimbeaux:

"The Director of Operations as well as a hundred or so others do. Look him up, you won't find a name."

So what? If I followed some guy to work (who happened to be the director)and wrote a story that he worked for the CIA (which would be obvious), I wouldn't be breaking any laws, either.

Novak, in an interview, ... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Novak, in an interview, said his sources had come to him with the information. "I didn't dig it out, it was given to me," he said. "They thought it was significant, they gave me the name and I used it."

- From this article in Newsday 07/22/03

"By the same principle, the... (Below threshold)

"By the same principle, the recent NYT story on the CIA's use of private contractors for covert air services, specifically naming the companies and some of the employees, also endangers every person working in those companies (whether on the covert side or the legit side of the company)."

Somebody should look into it. If that company's employees were running agents in addition to transporting to torture centers than the leaks would be comparable.

Hey, I got the name from Bu... (Below threshold)
POed Liberal:

Hey, I got the name from Bush's name for Karl the Traitor: TurdBlossom

Rickt asked the following r... (Below threshold)
Steve White:

Rickt asked the following riddle:

Q: If an offense was not committed -- during the outing of Plame as covert agent -- why would the CIA ask the DoJ to get involved and launch an investigation?
A: ???

Here's the answer: because at the beginning, you don't know whether it was an offense or not. Maybe you think it is, but further investigation shows that a) you're right or b) you're wrong.

Police and prosecutors investigate alleged crimes all the time. Some pan out and some don't. But you don't know until you do the investigation.

None of this matters! She ... (Below threshold)
rick13:

None of this matters! She was never in any danger. Why are we even playing the liberal's little "get rid of Rove" game.

Posted by: rickt at August ... (Below threshold)
Thomas:

Posted by: rickt at August 5, 2005 05:00 PM

"Riddle me this:

Q: If an offense was not committed -- during the outing of Plame as covert agent -- why would the CIA ask the DoJ to get involved and launch an investigation?
A: ???"

Good question. It is often assumed there are no democrats or liberals in government (re: that it is naturally conservative). Well, there are. Some in the CIA and many in the state dept.

Some of them are hard core partisans like you folks. They want investigations for the same reason a lot of you do. Score points for their side.

Anyway, I'm close to centrist (leaning conservative but still open minded) and I'm not convinced anyone did anything wrong here. Rove screwed up and confirmed something he was asked but that's assuming he used his security clearance to find out she was CIA (and covert). That's a big if. Not to mention, the whole narrative that this was revenge has totally floundered. Its sort of, 'is that all you got'? The public won't get on board over this. It’s too underwhelming.

The secret was not her maid... (Below threshold)
Joe Buck:

The secret was not her maiden name, it was that she worked for the CIA. Officially, she worked as an energy analyst for the firm of Brewster Jennings and Associates. The fact that this company was a front controlled by the CIA was also highly classified; apparently this firm had other "employees" as well, so Novak's article exposed them all.

It is apparently true that she used the name "Valerie Wilson" socially and "Valerie Plame" when working with Brewster Jennings, but vast numbers of professional women who established a reputation under their maiden names do the same.

Anyway, I'm close to cen... (Below threshold)
POed Liberal:

Anyway, I'm close to centrist (leaning conservative but still open minded) and I'm not convinced anyone did anything wrong here. Rove screwed up and confirmed something he was asked but that's assuming he used his security clearance to find out she was CIA (and covert). That's a big if. Not to mention, the whole narrative that this was revenge has totally floundered. Its sort of, 'is that all you got'? The public won't get on board over this. It’s too underwhelming.

You are probably right, unless someone in the WH is actually charged. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed. If we see Karl the Traitor on the evening news with his hands behind his back, that would be pretty effective.

Even assuming arguendo that... (Below threshold)
sirreal2001:

Even assuming arguendo that Wilson was fabricating everything (which is a ridiculous assertion), why would this justify identifying his wife as a CIA operative?

And, more importantly, why would anyone defend it?

I have a real problem with knee-jerk Republicans, who will defend anything and everything this administration does, even if its inconsistent with their own personal values.

The truth is: I doubt any of these people believe that leaking the fact that Plame was a CIA operative is justifiable. They're just standing up for their party the way they would stand up for a good friend who may have done something wrong. The problem is: these people really should be standing up to their country right now.

And the ridiculous talking point that she wasn't covert? It's either ignorant or disingenuous. It's not for us (or the administration) to decide whether she is entitled to that status. The fact is that she had that status. Can't these people comprehend that that status may have been maintained to protect others?

This whole debacle has had a deleterious impact on our ability to gather intelligence, particularly in the areas related to WMD. Why would you consult or reveal information to an operative knowing that someday down the road their status (and hence your cooperation with them) might be revealed?

This whole thing is indefensible and shows a penchant for putting politics above issues of national security, etc.

Posted by: patriotboy at Au... (Below threshold)
Thomas:

Posted by: patriotboy at August 5, 2005 05:13 PM

"The Director of Operations as well as a hundred or so others do. Look him up, you won't find a name."

Are any of those guys actually going to be sent on covert missions? No.

Every hostile (and most of the friendly) intelligence agencies in the world photograph people working there.

You can't even be sent on missions against non governmental targets because of the cooperation between some governments with non government groups (such as large narco trafficking groups)...

That's my point of having a desk job at that building...

How does the name "POed Lib... (Below threshold)
Greg M:

How does the name "POed Liberal" differentiate you from any other Liberal?

Someone earlier in the thre... (Below threshold)
sirreal2001:

Someone earlier in the thread stated that Wilson claimed that she was no longer covert. This is actually not true. It's a complete misquote (much like the assertion that he claimed that Cheney sent him; Wilson never said that: go to the primary source (the way we learned in school) and read the actual transcript instead of relying on second hand reports)).

Wilson said that she was no longer covert, once her identity had been revealed.

What he was saying was: you blew her cover, guys...

Why defend that? Don't you want to see CIA agents and their sources identities protected? Seriously ask yourself if you're just sticking up for your party or sticking up for your actual values. I would guess that your a person of integrity and your actual values would actual condemn disclosing such information. If so, please stop defending the destructive actions of this administration. Or at least ask yourself if they truly deserve your trust.

** Truth = Smear **(... (Below threshold)
hallf-vast conspirator:

** Truth = Smear **
(Typical donkeyass logic.)

How does the name "POed ... (Below threshold)
POed Liberal:

How does the name "POed Liberal" differentiate you from any other Liberal?

I'm more pissed-off. Like many liberals, I have grown tired of listening to morons tell lies, and am no longer going to be sitting around and taking it.

I'm polishing my baseball bat, and swinging for the knee-caps.

Thanks for asking.

Ahhh, the party of compassi... (Below threshold)
Greg M:

Ahhh, the party of compassion and tolerance.

I'm not sure what the truth... (Below threshold)
sirreal2001:

I'm not sure what the truth = smear post is intended to say, but if it is insinuating that the truth can NEVER be a smear, I respectfully disagree.

For example, your buddy ticks you off, you know his credit card # and other related details. You go on this site and you publish it. You've just stated something truthful -- his credit card # -- but you've caused significant harm -- you published a confidential piece of info.

Second example: same buddy -- he ticks you off -- he's single and you know he's impotent. You publicize this fact or gossip about it with a woman he's interested in. You've just told the truth, but you've also smeared him.

Please think critically about these things. A lot of these arguments just don't hold water and, again, I suspect their being proferred by people who really don't support the idea of "outing" a CIA agent or otherwise jeopardizing national security.

I keep seeing the idiot cla... (Below threshold)
Jodido:

I keep seeing the idiot claim that revealing that she was an "undercover CIA agent" or that she was "affiliated" or "worked for" the CIA is the real crime - and that Novak and/or somebody in the administration is guilty of it. Typical liberal moonbat paranoia.

First of all - she was first identified as an "undercover CIA agent" by David Corn of The Nation, a leftist rag, a couple of days after Bob Novak's column ran. His source was none other but Joe Wilson himself. Bob Novak only identified her affiliation with the CIA, in a whistleblowing step to point out Joe Wilson's lack of integrity in his claims about the administration and Niger. If anything, the scandal is how this third rate partisan lying hack who didn't even work for the CIA got a gig to investigate a matter of national security via nepotism.

Second of all - Bob Novak is surely guilty of identifying her affiliation with the CIA, if that is a crime. However, it was well known within her circle of friends that she worked at the CIA, and any "investigative" reporter surely could have seen her walking to and from her office in Langley. Besides, she was pushing paper anyway because of the concern that she'd already been outed by traitor Aldrich Ames.

Now, DUers.....breathe nice, slow, deep breaths into your paper bag....

Sip some Hennessy, it's Friday!

You guys are hilarious. I ... (Below threshold)
LOL:

You guys are hilarious. I especially love the especially informed claims that no crime was committed, powered by the diligently researched facts of Powerline, Rush, Freerepublic, et al. Reminds me of the time when you guys were all of a sudden experts on Iraqi ties to Al Qaeda and their development of weapons of mass destruction.

Of course you knew then, better than Ritter et al., that Iraq had WMDs. Just as you know now, better than Patrick Fitzgerald (formerly of fame for bringing down the corrupt Democratic regime in Illinois, so hardly a partisan hack), that no crime was committed. Forget about law school, or reading the U.S. Code, or about talking to an expert on federal criminal law. Glenn Reynolds and Michelle Malkin said there was no crime!

In two months, someone might ask you about your opinions on Plame and Rove, and whether you'll finally admit you're wrong. Maybe one or two of you will admit it, but I suspect that most of you will move on to the next Rush Limbaugh inspired outrage.

At some point, maybe you'll realize that your information is only as good as your sources. And your sources are $hit, frankly. They've been wrong time and time again. Rush Limbaugh is NOT an expert on Middle East policy. Sean Hannity is NOT an expert on proliferation issues. Bill O'Reilly is NOT an expert on North Korea. Your fellow douchebags at Freerepublic.com are NOT experts on federal criminal law, nor are they particularly well-versed in the life of Ms. Valerie Wilson, nee Plame.

You are right about what Wi... (Below threshold)
bill:

You are right about what Wilson said, I was incorrect, and you did catch me relying on secondary sources. But he is being slightly cute with his comments; a non-denial if there ever was one. He won't come out and say she was covert, which leads to the suggestion that perhaps she wasn't. The whole issue, based on the statute, is whether she had seved outside the country since 1997. I don't know whether she had or not, and I don't know why the CIA asked to have it investigated. I don't know what Rove did, Miller did, or Novak did. Neither does anyone on this board. Wilson could have been Miller's source, Rove might have been Novak's. If it turns out Rove acted as alleged by the mainstream press, he should be gone. But if he didn't, I hope some of the folks with the overheated comments on this board will be forthcoming in admitted they were incorrect. Here is what Wilson said:

What do you make of those accusations, which are serious accusations, as you know, that have been leveled against you.

WILSON: My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity.

BLITZER: But she hadn't been a clandestine officer for some time before that?

WILSON: Thats not anything I can talk about. And, indeed, I'll go back to what I said earlier, the CIA believed that a possible crime had been committed, and that's why they referred it to the Justice Department.

Posted by: sirreal2001 at A... (Below threshold)
Thomas:

Posted by: sirreal2001 at August 5, 2005 05:22 PM

"Even assuming arguendo that Wilson was fabricating everything (which is a ridiculous assertion), why would this justify identifying his wife as a CIA operative?"

It's not ridiculous; actually it is where the facts point as far as I can see. Reread his NYTs editorial then the Butler report.

Anyway, to answer your question, first off you seem to assume Rove et all knew she was covert. We don't know that. Second, the reason was it was a defense against another Wilson fabrication. Wilson kept saying the vice president's office sent him ergo they must have known about his conclusions (which he also misrepresented to the public...). Well, the VPs office did not initiate his trip (which a senate report shows) and there is no evidence they read his report (which actually said that Nigerian officials believed that Iraqi officials had made overtures to buy uranium…). In fact, the CIA imitated his mission internally. The fact that his wife had a hand in his selection helped counter his claim it was Cheney's office...

Ahhh, the party of compa... (Below threshold)
POed Liberal:

Ahhh, the party of compassion and tolerance.

Absolutely, within limits. A vast improvement over the current repuke party, the party of stupidity, religious nutbars and liars like yourself.

HOWARD DEAN JUST RESIGNE... (Below threshold)
jmaster:

HOWARD DEAN JUST RESIGNED HIS CHAIRMANSHIP!!!

"Out to get Karl"? Absolut... (Below threshold)
Tom:

"Out to get Karl"? Absolutely! We are indeed out to get Karl, because he's a devious, amoral hatchet-man who cares more about his own political fortunes than he cares about the security of our nation. Folks like that shouldn't have the ear of the world's most powerful man. That you lot are defending a man who is willing to sink to any depth for political victory says volumes--to so vigorously defend a hitman like Karl shows you care more about the integrity of your party's power than the health of the nation.

For crying out loud, you're defending a man who orchestrated a smear campaign against a patriotic, triple-amputee war veteran--just because he wasn't playing for Karl's team! You're standing beside a man who started a whispering campaign against a state supreme court judge, alleging that the man was a pedophile! Set aside, just for one heartbeat, whatever various legal technicalities and arguments you have; forget what the definition of "is" is for just a second. Does Karl Rove stand for what you believe in? When you watch what he does, do you think, "He's doing this for the good of America!"? Would you be proud to do the things Karl Rove does? Would you raise your kids to be like Karl Rove?

But don't even think of suggesting we're going over-the-top in going after Karl. I think the gloves kinda came off in this arena when a different special prosecutor released a detailed and public account of how the President of the United States stuck a cigar into an intern's hoo-hah, pulled it out, tasted it, and proclaimed "It tastes good." At that point, ladies and gentlemen, all suggestion of decorum and dignity in these kinds of proceedings didn't fly out the window--it was stabbed in the neck, spat on, and shoved down the garbage chute.

You want to talk about the Dems being "out to get" Karl? Fair enough. Let's consult the playbook to see just how far we should carry this. Let's get right down to the nittiest, grittiest, nastiest truths of the matter. Let no stone go unturned, and let no punch be pulled--America deserves the truth, nothing less. With any luck, Mr. Fitzgerald wil have some very, very interesting things to publish in the next few months.

> I'm polishing my baseball... (Below threshold)
ColBatGuano:

> I'm polishing my baseball bat, and swinging for the knee-caps.

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon
his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
- H.L. Mencken

RE: POed Liberal's automate... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

RE: POed Liberal's automated language transmogrifier post (August 5, 2005 04:28 PM)

Houston, we have a problem...


semiliterate repukelican moron
bozo
conservadopo

*snap...*

conservamoron
conservaturd

*crackle... pop!*


I think it was here where I heard the creativity switch in the right-wingnut regular expression loop go kablooey... or the nut fall off the right-wing creativity switch. I'm not sure which and I guess it doesn't really matter. The point is that an endless loop bug has been exposed.

Just thought I'd let you know that you might want to investigate - maybe borrow some of ed's (see ed at August 5, 2005 04:27 PM) suggestions to reseed your semantics well.

Tranquility Base, out.


[~ post #179 and rapidly climbing. Someone erect a new net - it's a moonbat swarm!]

Bill,Even though I... (Below threshold)
sirreal2001:

Bill,

Even though I believe that we disagree on the overall issue, I respect the integrity of your response.

I know this is crazy day, b... (Below threshold)
gort:

I know this is crazy day, but...

1. I used to get Who's who entries all the time. ANYONE can be in Who's who, for the $60 or whatever per year they charge. You even write your own entries.

2. I would have thought at least the wacky lefties would acknowledge what even the NYT acknowledges - that Wilson lied about his WMD statement. He massaged the words carefully, by saying there was no evidence that Iraq BOUGHT WMD in the 90's, when his own report verified that they SOUGHT them. Not to mention that Iraq BOUGHT some 500 tonnes of Yellow Cake in the 80's. I think Iraq had something like 2000 TONNES of Yellow Cake stockpiled and flagged with bright UN seals. Nothing nwe t here.

3. This debate is not about Wilson, a confirmed liar, which is over, but whether any law was broken with Plame, who dunnit, and if any laws were indeed broken, whether there will be a prosecution. None of us were in the GJ room, so all we can do is speculate. The cast of characters include Cooper, Judy gal, Rove, Libby, Novak, and perhaps even David Korn and others. What strikes me, is if Plame was indeed outed twice (inadvertantly) by the CIA, losing her covert status, why is there a prosecutor still on this case? Why is Judy-gal still in jail? What is the Times role in all this? So far, no conservatives have been implicated in any law breaking. (ranting aside), but is there a fishing expedition to catch a conservative? or has someone in Bushes cabinet under the gun, but details have not hit the public waves? Os is there some other focus to this investigation now?

I think my questions are more to the actual point of this. Most of the other crap is just muddying the waters. My suspicion is that there is something stinking in NYTs back yard, but there could just as well be something stinking in the administration, who (should have been at least) were hungry to expose Wilson's lies.

Lastly, it will be months, maybe another year before we know anything, so chill out dudes!

"Every normal man must b... (Below threshold)
POed Liberal:

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon
his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
- H.L. Mencken

Thank you. I am adopting that as my motto.

Posted by: ColBatGuano at A... (Below threshold)
Thomas:

Posted by: ColBatGuano at August 5, 2005 05:42 PM

"> I'm polishing my baseball bat, and swinging for the knee-caps.

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon
his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
- H.L. Mencken"

Well, a good liberal would resist the urge. A fascist would not.

I think this discussion shows that there is a lot of ambiguity over this. A lot of people seem pretty surprised to hear that most of Wilson's claims have been disproved (by a senate investigation and the British Butler report).

Really want to bash the other side when you may not even be right?


Once again:It was ... (Below threshold)

Once again:

It was a crime. It was Rove. Deal with it.

Here's the Republican logic... (Below threshold)

Here's the Republican logic:

See, if you can prove that Clark Kent is Superman, then it means you've proven that Clark Kent is a superhero, because it's OBVIOUS to everyone that Superman is a superhero.

Therefore,

If you can prove that Valerie Wilson is Valerie Plame, then it means you've proven that Valerie Wilson is a spy, because it's OBVIOUS to everyone that Valerie Plame is a spy.

Therefore, since they didn't take huge efforts to occlude the Wilson/Plame connection, it means it was no big state secret, therefore, no treason.

I mean, I sure knew that "Valerie Plame" is a spy! It was completely obvious, wasn't it? I mean, that name SCREEEEAMS James Bond, doesn't it? I mean, it's an anagram for "Lie, Reveal, Map", which are all toootally spy words! (Hmm, it's also a "Veep Lie Alarm"....)

Actually, Thomas, both the ... (Below threshold)
Doubting Thomas:

Actually, Thomas, both the Senate report and the Butler report make clear that the claims of Bush in his January 2003 speech (the 16 words) were wrong, and unsupportable at least as soon as October 2002.

Both reports do attempt to make the claims that Bush was at least somewhat justified in relying on those claims (and not lying). However, given the heavy political pressures we know went into both reports, that conclusion, which is at least somewhat belied by the facts of both reports, seems tenuous.

Maybe you should reconsider bashing the other side before checking to see if you're right. One place to start might be by reading the actual reports.

Twit.

Just a test. This is only ... (Below threshold)
keverama-ding-dong:

Just a test. This is only a test.

To all you republicans posting here. Can you give me the top-ten things that Republicans have done wrong in the last ten years? How about the Bush Administration?

Please don't come back with naming what the Democrats/Clinton has done. I know you guys already can recite those like Muslims do the Koran.

As has been reported, the C... (Below threshold)

As has been reported, the CIA was so convinced that Valerie Plame's covert status had been compromised by Aldrich Ames around 1994 that it pulled her back to the United States along with several other agents, fearing that they would be captured, imprisoned, or killed.

To say that the CIA would continue to use people in "covert" roles when it was certain enough that their identities had been compromised to the point that they did something that extreme and counterproductive to intelligence-gathering suggests that the CIA is grossly and completely incompetent. Pulling Valerie Plame back to the United States was not going to make foreign intelligence agencies forget who she was, and any "company" for which she worked was going to immediately fall under suspicion. Furthermore, it is the height of ignorance to think that foreign intelligence agencies wouldn't suspect an ambassador's wife of being a CIA agent -- especially when you looked at her bio and/or work history with all those mysterious moves.

The only way in which Plame could have possibly been "covert" was as a counterintelligence ruse -- that is, we know you know, but we don't want you to think that we know you know.

Furthermore, if you look at Wilson's own words in the Times op-ed, he rather proudly states that he made sure everyone he talked to in Niger knew that he was there at the behest of the US government. The people he talked to -- current and former government and uranium-cartel officials -- had to know that if even a whisper had gotten out about them even talking with Saddam about buying uranium, it could cut off the country's foreign aid, bring sanctions and severing of diplomatic relations down on them, and destroy one of their country's best means of raising foreign capital. In short, as long as Joe Wilson was standing there telling them he was there on behalf of the US government, they weren't going to say anything BUT "no, no, we never did anything like that".

The fact that the CIA sent someone on a mission where the results were a foregone conclusion, given the person's methods, raises the issue of why they did it in the first place. Could it be because their only interest was in taking cheap political shots at the Bush administration, which was agitating very strongly for the reform and revamp of the CIA structure to remove the bureaucracy and force the agency to gather information for intelligence and not political purposes?

"Like many liberals, I have... (Below threshold)
Mark Flacy:

"Like many liberals, I have grown tired of listening to morons tell lies"

Can't hear yourself think, hmm?

And no Democrat's posing as... (Below threshold)
keverama-ding-dong:

And no Democrat's posing as Republicans. At least not until after you wipe the drool off your chin.

Posted by: Doubting Thomas ... (Below threshold)
Thomas:

Posted by: Doubting Thomas at August 5, 2005 05:53 PM

"Actually, Thomas, both the Senate report and the Butler report make clear that the claims of Bush in his January 2003 speech (the 16 words) were wrong,"

Yes, wrong with hindsight.

"and unsupportable at least as soon as October 2002."

Ahhh, prove it. I have read them and this is not what I saw.

"Maybe you should reconsider bashing the other side before checking to see if you're right. One place to start might be by reading the actual reports.

Twit."

And a big f you back to ya. Quote from the report to prove your point.

We all already know the niger letters were fake and it's spin to try to only rely on them (as Wilson did). The point is there was other well founded intel to support the claim. This is in the Butler report.

Well, a good liberal wou... (Below threshold)
POed Liberal:

Well, a good liberal would resist the urge. A fascist would not.

Treason in high office is not to be tolerated, even in a turdblossom like Karl Rove. I'm tired of those defeatist attitudes that you describe.

You are gonna see a buncha POed libs over the next 18 months. We awake and we angry.


Read Novak's column. He di... (Below threshold)
AST:

Read Novak's column. He didn't claim that the CIA connection came from Who's Who. Only the name of Wilson's wife. I suspect that the reason the book was on the set was to call attention to the fact, pointed out above, that it did not say Ms. Plame worked for the CIA.

That she worked for the CIA, he reports, was common knowledge around Washington. He also faulted himself for using the term "operative" to describe her, which has been used to fan the flames.

Novak's column is pretty defensive, and his walking off the set indicates that he's personally unsettled by the way his original piece has transmogrified into a multi-million dollar investigation and a fellow journalist being sent to jail. He takes it personally.

I understand why the Democrats and the media are so desperate for a scandal to hurt Bush, but this one has more in common with Rather's TANG documents than any real wrongdoing. The scandal, as far as I'm concerned, is that Plame may have used her position of influence to give her hubbly a junket on the government's dime. It also suggests that the CIA was larded with officers who are hostile to Bush and his foreign policy. The only thing about it that discredits Bush and Rove is that they didn't find a replacement for Tenet much, much earlier. It's one thing to disagree with your leaders, but quite another to go out of your way to torpedo them, which is what Wilson was all about.

LOL, above, has the right i... (Below threshold)

LOL, above, has the right idea.

You're all here, parsing the treason statutes (well, one of them, anyway; nobody from Wingnuttia's informed you yet, that there are LOTS of them, plus myriad regulations), thereby PROVING Joe Wilson's wife wasn't "undercover" for the requisite amount of time, Wilson was an unmitigated liar, etc., etc.

Hey, we ain't got shit to say about the outcome here!

Run, quick like a bunny, go tell Special Prosecutor Fitzgerald! HE's the guy you've got to convince! (Well, him and the federal judges who continue to greenlight his grand jury investigation.)

I'm positive he'll be enraptured by your legal theories! ROTFLMAO!!

Peon said "Treason in high ... (Below threshold)
Paul:

Peon said "Treason in high office is not to be tolerated, even in a turdblossom like Karl Rove."

As the late Steven Vincent said "Words Matter" - and hysterical foul mouthed lefties like you lower the debate by your shrill use of words like; lie, treason, turdblossom...

What are you......12?

Sweet! We're on the brin... (Below threshold)
snowballs:

Sweet! We're on the brink of 'yo mama' jokes

Ok Tom 4:28 PM, here's one of my favorites...

Yo mama so fat, when somebody yells 'Hey Kool-Aid', she comes bustin' through the wall.

Yes, the name of Ambassador... (Below threshold)
cdc:

Yes, the name of Ambassador Wilson's may have been public information, but his wife’s name may have been known, but the fact that she was an CIA operative was not, until Mr. Novak announced it publicly.

You ideologues and apologists are missing the point

"As the late Steven Vincent... (Below threshold)
POed Liberal:

"As the late Steven Vincent said "Words Matter" - and hysterical foul mouthed lefties like you lower the debate by your shrill use of words like; lie, treason, turdblossom..."

Turdblossom is Bush's name for ol' Karl the traitor.

Deal with it.

I know that Turdblossom is ... (Below threshold)
POed Liberal:

I know that Turdblossom is a bad word, but after Bob Novak used it in a column, it was fair game.

Those who still claim that ... (Below threshold)
Jeff Gannon:

Those who still claim that WILSON lied when he said Cheney sent him are, well, lying or misinformed.

Wilson has repeatedly said that Cheney or Cheney's office had a question on the issue, and it was the CIA's decision to send him.

I know that this point is confusing to you Republican Non-Thinks, but the record is clear. In fact, Wilson has said the opposite: that Cheney probably had NO IDEA of his mission.

Long before you Non-Thinks came up with this lie, Wilson told none other than Jeff Gannon (in his now somewhat infamous interview), the following. All of his statements have been concerning Cheney have been consistent on this point.

http://tinyurl.com/bynaf

Read it and weep (and just try to explain):

"TN: Did the White House have any advance notice that you were going on this mission?

Wilson: I doubt it. The way that this works is that the vice president is acknowledged as asking the CIA briefer if he has anything on this subject. That is taken by the CIA briefer as a tasker. The CIA briefer goes back and tasks it at the operational level. The operators then decide how best to answer the question and in this case they did a number of things that I am aware of. One, they had this meeting at which they tried to fill in all information gaps they had, and two, they asked me if I would clear my schedule to go, and three, after I said that I might be prepared to do that, we gamed out what might be gained by my going out there."

Posted by: keverama-ding-do... (Below threshold)
Thomas:

Posted by: keverama-ding-dong at August 5, 2005 05:56 PM

"To all you republicans posting here. Can you give me the top-ten things that Republicans have done wrong in the last ten years? How about the Bush Administration?"

What? 20 things? Anyway, I'm not a republican but here are some things that come to mind...

1) Encouraging the Iraqi's to rise up against Saddam when we didn't follow through and help (as promised). This really digs me as I'm in a group that the US did this too way back when (and we got torn up as a result also).

2) I don't buy that life begins at conception so some of this stem cell drama is just dumb.

3) Bush lied about the costs of his prescription benefit plan. We can't afford it.

4) Actually, go to Spinsanity. The Bush admin spins lot of stuff and this bad... this ough to count for several.

5) The half hearted attempt to fix social security. Social Security and Medicare are both untenable in their current form. We don't need private accounts, we need to dig up FDR's quotes and remind people what Social Security was for and contrast what it has become (a big regressive tax / middle class entitlement)...

6) Not doing a better PR job with Europe. A lot of anti American clowns would hate us no matter what but Bush has largely failed to articulate / explain / defend his administration's policies to the Euros... So maybe some moderates are against us who don't need to be...

7) They misjudged the occupation. I'm not sure we need more troops, but his administration didn't realize how hard it would be.

8) Basing the Iraq war so much on WMD... This probably came out of his admin's tendency to spin stuff. He should have made a compete argument listing other reasons..

9) Not dealing with illegal immigration since it helps business. So, business gets to exploit cheap labor (re: people) and we pick up the real costs (schools, medical treatment, social welfare, and the divisiveness that will result from having a group of second class citizens who don’t speak the same language…)…

Gotta go do some work...

Hey. I said Republicans on... (Below threshold)
keverama-ding-dong:

Hey. I said Republicans only.

They didn't misjudge the post Iraq occupation. Not really. They didn't think anyone would be left alive to watch.

Ya Mama's house is so dusty... (Below threshold)
keverama-ding-dong:

Ya Mama's house is so dusty the cockroaches need a dune buggy to get around.

Bob Novak must be feeling b... (Below threshold)
POed Liberal:

Bob Novak must be feeling bad. After years and years of faithful lying for the repuke puppet masters, he is outed by his own words as a traitor, along with Karl the traitor.

So many years of lying, and now he is exposed as an enemy of America.

...yo' mama so fat the last... (Below threshold)
Tom:

...yo' mama so fat the last time she saw '90210' was on a scale.

...yo' mama so nice she'd give me the hair off her back.

(See, this is waaay more fun than political dick-measuring contests!)

Paul said:h... (Below threshold)

Paul said:

hysterical foul mouthed lefties like you lower the debate by your shrill use of words like; lie, treason, turdblossom...

What are you......12?

Actually, 47, Paul; how about you?

Sorry if we get "shrill" about treason, and being lied to, but that's a healthy reaction in true patriots, I'm afraid. Those of you who fly the pachyderm above the Stars & Stripes probably will never understand this.

But if you want to talk about "shrill" -- just watch what the Wingnut Wurlitzer cranks up about Special Prosecutor Fitzgerald, once the indictments come down . . .

...you mama so ugly she's t... (Below threshold)
keverama-ding-dong:

...you mama so ugly she's taking makeup tips from Katherine Harris.

Ian Fleming didn't choose t... (Below threshold)

Ian Fleming didn't choose the name James Bond because it conjured up images of debonair sophistication. He chose it as a good spy name because it's the lowland Scots equivalent of John Smith. An absolutely bland name which nobody would ever notice or remember.

Don't you people know anything?

If Ms. Plame was "operati... (Below threshold)
Casey:

If Ms. Plame was "operating" as an "undercover operative" in the United States for 6 years then we should assume that she and her "handlers" will soon be arrested and "frogwalked" to jail. Once again it is illegal for the CIA to use "undercover operatives" in the United States. Period. If we assume anything it should be assumed that Ms. Plame was not undercover during the time in question. The original Novak article asked the obvious question, why did the CIA send Wilson? The shadowy world of African nuclear espionage would seem to be the last place to send a white, middle aged, overweight, ascot wearing, former surfer-dude (in his own words) like Joe Wilson. If this was truly the CIA’s only response to the question of whether Iraq was trying to obtain uranium (likely through black market means) then all of us (even ignorants like the PO'ed goofball) should be seriously worried. I guess that Brian Wilson just wasn't available.

Here's the deal, distilled ... (Below threshold)
crump:

Here's the deal, distilled down to its absolute basics: Valerie Wilson was Joseph Wilson's wife, for all neighbors, ice cream men, storekeepers, relatives, etc., to see and hear and befriend; "Plame" is Mrs. Wilson's maiden name, and ALSO the name she used as a covert CIA operative - Valerie Plame - a fact that no one would know or conceivably intuit, had Robert Novak not revealed said fact in his column; once exposed, her covert status was destroyed, with unknown repercussions. What's relevant in terms of indictments and federal law and possible prison time (or at least lasting disgrace) is the linking of CIA operative to the name/person Valerie Plame. In and of themselves, neither her maiden name or married name are relevant in the slightest. Only the linkage of "Valerie Plame" to "covert CIA operative" is.

Large Zeppelin says:<... (Below threshold)
keverama-ding-dong:

Large Zeppelin says:

"An absolutely bland name which nobody would ever notice or remember"

How did that work out for him? James Bond is clearly the most recognizeable movie character in the history of cinema.

This place is fully of some... (Below threshold)
ScaryPeopleHere:

This place is fully of some scary ass freeptards. Don't you asshats know how to read?

You NonThinks are funny tod... (Below threshold)
Jeff Gannon:

You NonThinks are funny today: "Plame may have used her position of influence to give her hubbly a junket on the government's dime."

Oh really? Like a solo trip to Niger to meet with bureacratic officials is a junket? WILSON was not even paid a dime for his time. His expenses were paid, but he was not at all compensated.

Remember, Wilson was an ambassador that served both several African countries and IRAQ during the friggin' Gulf War !.

Can you not concede, or even consider, that Wilson was actually qualified to serve. Are you that indocrinated?

"In 1991, the acting U.S. ambassador to Iraq, Joe Wilson, sheltered 800 Americans at the embassy in Baghdad during Saddam Hussein’s invasion of Kuwait," CNN’s tribute to Wilson read.

In 1991, President George H. W. Bush called Ambassador Joseph Wilson a "True American Hero."

He was hailed as "truly inspiring" and "courageous" by George H. W. Bush after sheltering more than one hundred Americans at the US embassy in Baghdad, and mocking Saddam Hussein's threats to execute anyone who refused to hand over foreigners.


Posted by: Jeff Gannon at A... (Below threshold)
Thomas:

Posted by: Jeff Gannon at August 5, 2005 06:15 PM

"Those who still claim that WILSON lied when he said Cheney sent him are, well, lying or misinformed."

Here is a link to a reprint of his NYTs article
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0706-02.htm

If we are misinformed it is because of the language used by Wilson.

"In February 2002, I was informed by officials at the Central Intelligence Agency that Vice President Dick Cheney's office had questions about a particular intelligence report. While I never saw the report, I was told that it referred to a memorandum of agreement that documented the sale of uranium yellowcake — a form of lightly processed ore — by Niger to Iraq in the late 1990's. The agency officials asked if I would travel to Niger to check out the story so they could provide a response to the vice president's office."

and later his conclusions.

"Those are the facts surrounding my efforts. The vice president's office asked a serious question. I was asked to help formulate the answer. I did so, and I have every confidence that the answer I provided was circulated to the appropriate officials within our government."

If we assume anything it... (Below threshold)

If we assume anything it should be assumed that Ms. Plame was not undercover during the time in question.

Well, that settles it, then. Somebody tell Patrick Fitzgerald, and let's free Judy Miller! Everybody can go home!

In the face of your relentless assumptions, Casey, even the gods struggle in vain.

Posted by: keverama-ding-do... (Below threshold)
Thomas:

Posted by: keverama-ding-dong at August 5, 2005 06:19 PM

"Hey. I said Republicans only."

Well, I voted for Bush so close enough...

Thomass said:"If w... (Below threshold)
keverama-ding-dong:

Thomass said:

"If we are misinformed it is because of the language used by Wilson"

Kev says:

"If we are misinformed it is because of the language used by Wilson that has been consistently misinterpreted and blabbed about by Republicans"

"Those who still claim t... (Below threshold)
POed Liberal:

"Those who still claim that WILSON lied when he said Cheney sent him are, well, lying or misinformed."

Here is a link to a reprint of his NYTs article
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0706-02.htm

If we are misinformed it is because of the language used by Wilson.

"In February 2002, I was informed by officials at the Central Intelligence Agency that Vice President Dick Cheney's office had questions about a particular intelligence report. While I never saw the report, I was told that it referred to a memorandum of agreement that documented the sale of uranium yellowcake — a form of lightly processed ore — by Niger to Iraq in the late 1990's. The agency officials asked if I would travel to Niger to check out the story so they could provide a response to the vice president's office."

and later his conclusions.

"Those are the facts surrounding my efforts. The vice president's office asked a serious question. I was asked to help formulate the answer. I did so, and I have every confidence that the answer I provided was circulated to the appropriate officials within our government."

Isn't that amazing. Amazing. NEVER in any of that does it say that CHENEY ASKED HIM TO GO, nor DOES WILSON EVER SAY THAT.

You retards continue to connect dots that are just not connected.

Thomas says:"Well,... (Below threshold)
keverama-ding-dong:

Thomas says:

"Well, I voted for Bush so close enough..."

I voted for Reagan (I was 18) but don't consider myself one. But I understand. We have an old saying.

You can paint a thousand houses and never be considered a housepainter. But you suck one d1ck and your a co©ksu©ker.

Posted by: keverama-ding-do... (Below threshold)
Thomas:

Posted by: keverama-ding-dong at August 5, 2005 06:36 PM

"Thomass said:

"If we are misinformed it is because of the language used by Wilson"

Kev says:

"If we are misinformed it is because of the language used by Wilson that has been consistently misinterpreted and blabbed about by Republicans""

Dude, I just quoted Wilson's article. You can't just wave it away.

Anyway, I said Wilson's lie was a failure to own up that most of the things in his article did turn out wrong (not the article itself). Every new article in the media that fails to mention this is also being dishonest.

keverama-ding-dong;<p... (Below threshold)
gort:

keverama-ding-dong;

As a independent, who learned to detest liberals (not democrats, but liberals) here is my "worst Bush offenses" list, not necessarily in order...

1. Failure to secure the borders immediately after 9-11

2. Failure to arrange and codify procedures for military tribunals for captured Afghans/Arabs, and later Iraqi captured Al Qaeda members

2. support for CAFTA

3. Failure to prosecute election fraud, in Ohio, Wisconsin, New Mexico, South Dakota, New York, etc. This includes Clintons vote for me and I will pardon your radical puerto ricans and orthodox jewish criminals.

4. Allowing political correctness to influence how the war on terror is being run, not associating radical islam with the terrorists, and soft-playing the role of Iran, Pakistan, Syria, etc., in the current terror situation.

5. Prosecuting the military for inadvertent breeches of conduct during a time of war.

6. Not forcing congress to formally declare war in October 2001 on terrorism.

7. Not prosecuting Chinese espionage, illegal exports, extortion, bribery, and other criminal acts actively. This administration has ignored the way the PLA committed many crimes (unpunished) under the Clinton era, and is still ongoing today.

8. Allowing the left to get away with the outrageous claims that Iraq never had a "WMD program", had no links with Al Qaeda, and also allowing Iraq to export hundreds of semis to Syria before the war, which perhaps were much of those very same programs we could not find in Iraq.

9. In the war in Iraq, a huge military error was made in releasing the republican guard, not fingerprinting/cataloging the regular army, and just releasing the Iraqi army and declaring victory. The same strategy which won the war in a week, cost much of the post war problems, as few realized that the front guard contained many of the terrorists which are still a problem today. We also blundered in getting Iraqi police forces set up fast enough, did not put procedures in place to prevent terrorist infiltration into the recruiting centers. Lastly, we did not take Syria's role in arming the "insurgents" seriously enough until too late.

10. Probably worst in the long term, this is the most economically LIBERAL administration since Carter. This administration has allowed pork to grow at an unprecedented rate, has spent incredible amounts of money on wasted programs, in hopes of buying the votes of liberals, which would never happen. Spending is way out of control, and it will take an economic conservative getting elected, with a strong backbone to slow down the spending rate. Its bizarre how much this administration likes to spend, and I make no reference to military spending, which I consider necessary under either party.

11. Not confronting liberals with their slander and obstructionism in Congress. Frist is a wimp for delaying the end to judicial filibusters, with not actually ever forcing any filibusters to take place (Hey, Bill, this is Tom Daschle, we are going to filibuster Pickering. Tom: OK, we will back off again). If the dems want to filibuster judicial appointments, make them actually filibuster, then. This is a republican house, senate AND presidency. They should have pushed their agendas, come hell or high water, and let the people decide if they like it or not, in which case the people can vote them out. instead, they behaved like they are the minority party. Which is partly why spending is out of control.

12. Medicaid "reform". Only extremists can love a program which commits us to a trillion in future obligations. And there are few spending controls, few incentives to modernize, and this program is going to totally collapse before it is "fixed" again.

13. Legal Immigration - this country still has its head up its rear when it comes to LEGAL immigration. Yes, first we shut the border, then create a program for south of the border. THEN, we need to ENCOURAGE the best, smartest, etc from Europe, India, etc to come to America, not block them. In every immigrant wave before, the average wage of immigrants was HIGHER than the average American wage. We have successfully reversed that, costing this economy billions in expenses to support the illegals, while creating holes in the upper end of our labor pools.

14. Out-"sourcing". Not jobs outsourcing, which is not really relevant, but not controlling what we ship outside this country in the way to manufacturing base, R&D, development, etc. We sold nuclear technology to China, we sold entire oil refineries and gas processing plants to China, we are totally neglecting our infrastructure, without creating any economic disincentives for these exportation. You cannot "ban" selling US infrastructure, but you can influence it by setting incentives to US manufacturing. We have ignored this too much to the free market.

15. Sandy Berger. Why was he let off the hook? Same with many other Clintonist activities, Bush wanted to set the tone for "cooperating" by not prosecuting any past deeds, but I think it totally backfired. Just like the war on terror, when you take an abuse and say "we will be nice, just don't do it again", it emboldens them. We should have been tough on insider misdeeds. This administration has been remarkably clean in terms of crime in its house, unlike the Clinton years, which were disgusting, there were so many crooks and scams going on, but it refused to make those criminal pay. I think that was a huge mistake, and perhaps if they knew how demos would respond to this informal amnesty, they would not have gone this path.


I know you leftists mostly disagree with these, and probably I did not articulate these as well as others could, but they are the obvious things that I disagree with. ;-)

"All of this relates back t... (Below threshold)

"All of this relates back to what the book was doing on the table. Was it supposed to scare Novak? Given the content of the book why would it?"

quite simply because it only lists her name, not her occupation. Who gave him her occupation?

Jesus Christ. I've heard i... (Below threshold)
crump:

Jesus Christ. I've heard it reported everywhere from Fox to Democracy Now that it goes like this: the Vice President's office asks the CIA to send someone to Niger to check out Saddam-wants-yellow-cake suspicions. Why did Joseph Wilson's name come up? Because Valerie Wilson put it forward. Why did she put it forward? Because he'd been ambassador to an African nation (I confess, I can't remember which one) under GHW Bush (who, by the way, commended the job Wilson was doing/had done), and his experiential level made sense. (And come on - Niger ain't Aruba, where Fox has made a permanent home. It's sort of, um, hella third-world, a hellish, hopeless place. So it wasn't no vacation.) The CIA, after assessing Joseph Wilson, did what the Vice President's office requested and sent someone to Niger - Joseph Wilson,

Did Cheney ever meet Wilson? No, and why would he? You're talking about levels of people here, the rings of a bureaucratic chain. Wilson went to Niger, came back, made his report and that was that. Then he finds out that one of the founding planks in the Bushies' war desires is an allegation that yellow cake WAS being sought by Saddam, in Niger; Wilson knows it's not true, is infuriated and prints THE TRUTH. Fast-forward, and we end up here, with dirty rotten scoundrels thinking they can get away with any goddamn thing they want to because they're the watchers, living above the law. Um...no. It was stupid, it was based in purest revenge, it was the equivalent of flailing about crazily, and somebody's gonna pay. The question is, who?

Lively discussion here. See... (Below threshold)
buma:

Lively discussion here. Seems to me that Fitzgerald would first determine that a crime had actually been committed, as step one in an investigation (of course that was not how Kenneth Starr conducted the dipstickgate investigation). So you wingers should start getting used to the real probability that someone did indeed out a covert CIA operative. The CIA has directed Valerie Wilson not to comment on the case. The CIA demanded that her blown cover be investigated by the Justice Department. I'm not predicting that my next licence plate will be made by Karl Rove, but I wouldn't be surprised if Bush eventually pardons him.

Posted by: keverama-ding-do... (Below threshold)
Thomas:

Posted by: keverama-ding-dong at August 5, 2005 06:40 PM

"You can paint a thousand houses and never be considered a housepainter. But you suck one d1ck and your a co©ksu©ker."

Well, I'm a centrist libertarian who thinks republicans are often full of sh*t.

What this means to you is, if you can't convince me of your side, maybe your just full of it too. :)

Cheers


"If we are misinformed i... (Below threshold)
Jeff Gannon:

"If we are misinformed it is because of the language used by Wilson."

-- Actually, I was counting on you using your brain to figure this out.

How hard is it really?

Wilson:

(1) VP Office had Q.
(2) CIA decided to send me in order to deal with the Q.
(3) I reported to CIA, and assumed they informed the VP Office.

Look at Wilson's comments, he consistently says the "Agency" sent him -- as you even quote: "The agency officials asked if I would travel to Niger."

Wilson also consistently says: Cheney probably had no idea of his mission. That is not the way it works...blah blah blah.

LOOK: if you were truly confused, it is because the RNC put out blatently false talking points (it was even point #1). The RNC could have easily checked Wilson's prior statements. A careful review would have lead an honorable person to conclude that they COULD NOT allege that Wilson said it was Cheney who sent him. You just cannot make that claim under a review of all the facts. No way.

So the RNC issued its talking points intentionally lying about that point.

The book on the table was a... (Below threshold)
keverama-ding-dong:

The book on the table was actually hollowed out with a gun inside it. JC was going to shoot Novak in the head as part of 'liberal' CNN's new 'shoot to kill' policy.

"The secret was not her mai... (Below threshold)
MYOB:

"The secret was not her maiden name, it was that she worked for the CIA. Officially, she worked as an energy analyst for the firm of Brewster Jennings and Associates. The fact that this company was a front controlled by the CIA was also highly classified; apparently this firm had other "employees" as well, so Novak's article exposed them all."

There were a few scarcely mentioned stories suggesting that as a result of the revelation that Mrs. Valarie Plame was in fact an operative of the CIA not only was the front company exposed, but so too were all the people who worked there. So far there has been no info to my knowledge that discusses this since then, but the original article suggested that all of the people overseas had to be relocated and that some of them were reported missing. There was no way of knowing if they were in hiding or dead. Not to mention the many people they interracted with who would no doubt have been identified and grabbed never to be seen again.
But this aspect of the Plame situation has had little coverage other than what I originally read about it over a year ago. I would be interested if anyone here could ascertain any additional info about this since it would help to alleviate any concerns as to whether her outing did any real harm other than cost us billions worth of time, money, contacts, double agents, etc, whose acquired intel went through Mrs. Plame.

But if I might go off topic a bit. The key here as I see it is how Bush admin supporters can see fit to accuse liberals and democrats of treason and america hating, not to mention sabotaging the war on terror then when Plame gets outed and her work ruined, they think it actually helps the war on terror?

MYOB'
.

Posted by: Jeff Gannon at A... (Below threshold)
Thomas:

Posted by: Jeff Gannon at August 5, 2005 06:47 PM

"Look at Wilson's comments, he consistently says the "Agency" sent him -- as you even quote: "The agency officials asked if I would travel to Niger.""

I got it, but since then we've learned he was mistaken on almost all his points (including that Cheney's office had a hand in his mission, that they saw his report, and he did misrepresent his own report to the public). I don't see him owning up to it. The NYTs and others still say things like 'he revealed faulty intelligence used by the Bush admin' when this is not the fact (it's spin if anything). They won't own up to it and either will he.. So they're all being dishonest.

Gort says:"As a in... (Below threshold)
keverama-ding-dong:

Gort says:

"As a independent, who learned to detest liberals (not democrats, but liberals) here is my "worst Bush offenses" list, not necessarily in order..."

Thanks but I'm still waiting for a die hard Republican to chime in.

I also don't like how you slant everything towards his problem being that he didn't stop liberals from doing this or that. That's kinda cheating.

C'mon Republicans. Criticise your government. It's your RIGHT.

What I love the most here i... (Below threshold)
Mr. Nathan Hammersmith, Earl of Shitsbury:

What I love the most here in this thread is the parsing, the splitting of the finest hairs...contortions of apologists are truly things of wonder, because the shapes are impossible, and they don't seem to be in pain. Well, their eyes usually DO bug out a bit.

It's like this classic example: two kids are traveling with their mother to the store. Someone almost sideswipes them. A few days later, when the kids are at school telling the story away from each other, to this friend and that friend, some details are omitted, some are colored in, some are vividly remembered, some don't exist because they were barest minutae.

Thomas said:"I got i... (Below threshold)
keverama-ding-dong:

Thomas said:
"I got it, but since then we've learned he was mistaken on almost all his points (including that Cheney's office had a hand in his mission, that they saw his report, and he did misrepresent his own report to the public)."

He actually said that he assumed that Cheney saw it. Cheney has said he asked for it from the CIA and then he didn't look at the report (which you said he didn't). Seems like Cheney didn't really care. He was too busy seaching the fairegrounds for victims.

Sorry, <a href="http://www.... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Sorry, this quote was in response to the question in update 2:

Novak, in an interview, said his sources had come to him with the information. "I didn't dig it out, it was given to me," he said. "They thought it was significant, they gave me the name and I used it."

The answer being the latter, apparently.

Wow, you must've been li... (Below threshold)
voldemort:

Wow, you must've been linked on DU, Kevin. Congrats. Now can you get rid of this moonbat infestation?

Yes, this site should be more like Free Republic.

Let's just delete any comments and disable and posters we don't agree with and have a nice, clean echo chamber devoid of new ideas, the need for proof to back up arguments, or any tie to argument or logic whatsoever. It worked so well for the Romans!

Posted by: keverama-ding-do... (Below threshold)
Thomas:

Posted by: keverama-ding-dong at August 5, 2005 06:58 PM

"He actually said that he assumed that Cheney saw it. Cheney has said he asked for it from the CIA and then he didn't look at the report (which you said he didn't). Seems like Cheney didn't really care. He was too busy seaching the fairegrounds for victims."

I know. But he was wrong and has never owned up. The liberal press (like the NYTs) still treat his article as accurate. He (and they) won't admit that facts show his accusations were either mistaken or misrepresentations.

All the libs are doing is insulting me for pointing this out. This is why you'll keep loosing elections I guess. You've got your narrative and you can't accept that other people don't always agree with it.

Like 1+1=2, something simpl... (Below threshold)
hammy j.:

Like 1+1=2, something simple for you, something easy:

Somebody in the White House outed Valerie Wilson as a CIA operative. They did it for revenge. I'm curious: has anyone spoken of what that revenge was to be? I mean, outing her isn't revenge in itself; it doesn't embarrass, it's not scandalous, she's still above board. Does simply framing Wilson's trip to Niger as nepotism explain the revenge? It's not pungent enough, you know? I don't think. It's not very sexy, and besides, the least bit of digging and you find that the Wilsons had backgrounds clean as whistles. And Mr. Wilson was even lauded by Bush I! So the revenge HAD to consist of something else. But think, logically; take it to its natural terminus. What is that revenge?

I'll tell you what it was: Mrs. Wilson's death. Or the death of a Wilson kid. Or Joseph himself. Because the bigger story here, the story of a war founded in the dreck of shit-assed lies - a boutique war of the highest order - is the story of powermongers stoned out of their minds on war, wanting it so, so bad, needing it ('cause the Soviet Union was dead, for one) and doing whatever it takes to get it. The war was supposed to be walk in the country on a Thursday afternoon - sweet, easy and fine. Instead, it was a walk through one of the circles of Hell...it IS a walk through Hell's circles. And the people of America are gonna really, really, really want some heads on platters if there are anymore weeks like this one, with over 20 dead Marines from one small section of Ohio.

Where a Republican barely squeaked out a win in the lastest election, running against an Iraq veteran. She ran in the reddest of red areas. It bodes not well for the Republicans. The bell doth toll....

To: Michael ScottWha... (Below threshold)
Casey:

To: Michael Scott
What you wrote was NOT an argument. Please inform us how the CIA has “undercover operatives” “operating” in the United States. You also may also want to write about exactly what Mr. Fitzgerald is now investigating. Exactly what statute(s) are involved in this investigation? Well sport, nobody posting here knows exactly what statute(s) have possibly been violated or what possible violations Mr. Fitzgerald has been investigating. If Ms. Plame was an “undercover operative” “operating” in the United States then there is a chance that Mr. Fitzgerald is investigating Ms. Plame, her handlers and her superiors in the CIA. I do not think that Mr. Fitzgerald is investigating the CIA, but I certainly could be wrong on that point. Considering what little we know about this case it is asinine to assume that Ms. Plame was (illegally) doing “undercover” work in the United States. Period. Now Mr. Scott, if you have a reason that we should believe that Ms. Plame and her CIA superiors were breaking the law by having Ms. Plame operate in an illegal undercover fashion please do share this insight with us, but please spare us the 10th grade drama class histrionics.

"I got it, but since the... (Below threshold)
Jeff Gannon:

"I got it, but since then we've learned he was mistaken on almost all his points (including that Cheney's office had a hand in his mission,..."

OK, you at least admit you were wrong once. Now you need to admit it again. Cheney's office did have a hand in the mission, in that they did in fact raise a question about Niger/yellowcake after seeing a DIA report. That is what Wilson said.

In fact, the Senate Intelligence Commitee's account, presented in its 2004 review of prewar weapons intelligence on Iraq, confirms that CIA agents told then the VP's office did in fact have a question about yellowcake/Niger

"Officials from the CIA's DO Counterproliferation Division told committee staff that in response to questions from the Vice President's Office and the Departments of State and Defense on the alleged Niger-uranium deal, CPD officials discussed ways to obtain additional information. ... CPD decided to contact a former ambassador to Gabon [Wilson] who had a posting early in his career in Niger," the report stated.

http://tinyurl.com/c8j5g

Cheney has conceded he asked questions about the DIA report. That is all Wilson was trying to say.

It really is NOT that hard...

--------------------------------
FYI, one more Wilson quote, which immediately preceded the quote used misleadingly in the RNC talking points:

From the August 3, 2003, edition of CNN's Late Edition:
"WILSON: Well, look, it's absolutely true that neither the vice president nor Dr. [then-national security adviser Condoleezza] Rice nor even [then-CIA Director] George Tenet knew that I was traveling to Niger."

...so I'll just throw it ou... (Below threshold)
Tom:

...so I'll just throw it out again: who here would raise their kids to be like Karl Rove?

You know what the funniest ... (Below threshold)
Lovesex:

You know what the funniest thing is? Truly hilarious. And believe me, I'm the worst violator of this. It's talking about anything related to suspects and the law and special prosecutors and grand juries and playing armchair Patrick Fitzgerald , Possessor of All Facts. No. We know nothing. Believe me, there are few on this planet that want to see Karl Rove's pork-fed ass skewered good 'n proper (through his good 'n propers) as much as I do, but speculation is speculation, knowing is knowing, and we're gorged on the former and starved of the latter.

The mystery surrounding Novak has always been about lawyers and what you can and can't talk about. Sure, it makes for exquisitely rich cable-news fodder, and blogospheric blah blah blahing, but the reason Novak's position is so fucking incomprehensible is because HE CAN'T SAY SHIT ABOUT THIS CASE. So we're left to masturbate into a collective cup, and - most astonishingly - get in arguments over things we know nada about.

Just saying, it's hilarious. Now, back to fun time!

This partisan fighting is s... (Below threshold)

This partisan fighting is silly.

The moonbats are right that the listing in Who's Who doesn't out Plame. But that doesn't mean that there isn't a point for the wingers in the fact that her name appears in Who's Who.

Ok, breath. wheeeeew. Good for you! Not let's recap.

Allegedly, a person in the CIA press office told Nowak that Wilson wife, who works at the CIA, had something to do w. getting Wilson on the Niger trip, and that the VP didn't.

The CIA spokes-dude wrote an op-ed bashing Novak, saying that the spokes-dude told Novak not to identify Plame by name. Novak responded in his Sun-Times column saying that the CIA spokes-dude was off his rocker to tell him that it Wilson's wife that pushed the trip, but then to try to exhort Novak not to publish her name, b/c, as Novak noted in his column, Wilson's Wife's name could be found by looking up Wilson in Who's Who.

The moonbats came back and said - ahhh, but we bet it says "Valarie WILSON" in the Who's Who, proving that Novak is a dirty, rotten, no-good, re-puke liar; and when Novak saw the book on the CNN interviewer's desk, he "stormed off" the set for fear of being confronted with that fact.

So, the fact that the book say "Valarie PLAME" bolsters the point Novak made in his column--that is that once the CIA spokes-dude told Novak "Wilson's wife, who works here, put his name up for the Niger trip," the spokes-dude had spilled the beans, not Novak by printing Wilson's wife's name.

But, as usual, the moonbats make an unsubstantiated, speculative charge, and when proven wrong, move the goal posts. Sigh....

Thomas says: "But he... (Below threshold)
keverama-ding-dong:

Thomas says:
"But he was wrong and has never owned up. The liberal press (like the NYTs) still treat his article as accurate"

Kev says. Funny how I've read that 'correction' all over the liberal press . The Republicans could easily say that Dick Cheney never read his report but instead the GOP lies and says he said he was sent by Dick Cheney. So much for honesty. And how do you even manage to keep track of all the bullshit being tossed around these days. What I say is that our government is failing us (both Democrats and Republicans) and we had better get them to get it straight and get off the public dole or we have two choices:

1. The US turns into an economic sinkhole created by the Chinese while the RICH fly off in their escape pods to the Cayman Islands or South America to live like royalty.
2. The US turns into a nuclear sinkhole from (pick any anti-US operation) while the rich and politicians hide out in their velvet lined bunkers (It's no surprise that when an unknown aircraft pierces DC airspace that they all run and hide while the schools are uninformed. When does John Friggin McCain get out there with his gun and shoot a plane down)

We better hurry up because the only people in line to come to the rescue are the religious types who think the end of the world is a GOOD thing.

So, in wrapping my talk, put down your Freedom Fries or your french fries and get out there and make some changes for your children. Otherwise your f'cking kids are going to be getting killed by Chinese bullets bought with the money they got from making stupid toys for happy meals. How is that for IRONIC.

The CIA said that Saddam mo... (Below threshold)

The CIA said that Saddam most likely had WMDs.

What ever they say about VP and her husband I believe.

Why would they lie?

I mean they have stated that they believe Iran is 10 years away from making nukes.

I trust the CIA. Totally.

M Simon says:Why w... (Below threshold)
keverama-ding-dong:

M Simon says:

Why would they lie?


Kev says:
The CIA is based completely on deception. They have to lie. All the time. We aren't even supposed to know any of this. I'm worred they are going to kill everyone on this blog. lol.

Posted by: Jeff Gannon at A... (Below threshold)
Thomas:

Posted by: Jeff Gannon at August 5, 2005 07:06 PM

Ok, I see your points (such as the VPs office had questions) and guess he even owned up to some errors on his part (re: Wilson). Good for him. Now if only the NTYs would stop using his old article as an authoritative source. They continue doing so, even for the parts that are no longer considered authoritative (re: known wrong now).

The "Downing Street" and ot... (Below threshold)
Drew Edmondson:

The "Downing Street" and other memos clearly demonstrate the obligation by Bush/Blair to fix(lie)the reasons for going into Iraq. After all is there anyone posting here who would have supported the horror of Iraq just to get rid of Saddam? As the Senate report states it was John Bolton(well they don't name him just his position, so yes I'm outing him) who inserted the "16 words" in the State of the Union Address. Wilson's op-ed flew in the face of the spin Bush Inc was already undertaking and they responded. Every troop killed or wounded is a direct result of Bush lies. Every troop coming home and killing himself/herself and or others is a direct result of Bush Inc lies. Every Iraqi dead father, mother child killed by our troops is a direct result of Bush inc lies. Those that believe that Bush was misled and "meant well" write to the families of the dead and injured. You can find their names in the phone book.

After Rove revealed as a tr... (Below threshold)
POed Liberal:

After Rove revealed as a traitor the name of Plame, this also revealed that Brewster Jennings was a fake.

Some other Brewster Jennings employees have since been killed.

Treason does have consequences.

Come now, that's ridiculous... (Below threshold)
TC:

Come now, that's ridiculous. Valerie's life doesn't have to be in danger in order for her outing to have serious national security consequences. Try to imaging that it was Bill Clinton in office, and this issue would make much more sense to the conservatives on this forum. You'd see the National security implciations immediately.

We lost a covert operative, which is an asset we need more than ever. Not only that, but her expertise is in a field VERY closely related to the most significant national security threat we face today. If you think her life must be threatened James Bond style in order for her to be an important asset, you read to much Tom Clancy (or you say you do, but you actually just watched the movies).

My post is in reference to "As much as you might say that Plame's outing was for payback (which I don't agree with, at worst it was just a mistake, Rove probably didn't even know she was supposed to be covert), she wasn't exactly in a position where outing her is a national secutiry issue. Her life is in absolutely no danger from this. If it was, then why has she been displayed happily on the cover of Vanity Fair, not bothering to hide, or find a safe house or anything.

Now we're getting payback in reverse. The left is using the outing of someone who doesn't matter a bit to attack Bush and friends like there is no tomorrow. That's payback for winning the election.

This whole thing does not matter in the least to anyone, except in terms of what sort of political points they can score, and Joseph Wilson is right at the top of the list of people who have used this for personal gain. He got a book deal out of it, he got on lots of TV shows, and he got on the cover of a magazine. But did the outing affect our national security in any way? Did it cause a secret agent to die? Did it blow a massive secret operation? No, no, no. This is all about partisan bickering, with no"

Kev,So you think t... (Below threshold)

Kev,

So you think the CIA lied to Bush about WMDs?

I'm shocked.

You are destroying my faith in the CIA. My world will never be the same.

Now about those Iranian nukes.......

"Ok, I see your points (... (Below threshold)
Jeff Gannon:

"Ok, I see your points (such as the VPs office had questions) and guess he even owned up to some errors on his part (re: Wilson)."

Good for you -- I finally convinced a Wilson critic with actual facts.

Trust me, on who sent Joe Wilson, the RNC talking points are totally false and misuse his quotes by cutting them off.

And Wilson did admit that he simply assumed that a report would be prepared, and that it would have been sent to Cheney. I read this in several articles, but am too lazy to find them. So he 'fessed up about Cheney reading a report. Not really a lie, though -- I too would assume the CIA would file a report about Wilson's trip to answer the Question that the VP's office raised!

As to the other so-called "errors" made my Wilson:

(1) you can't call Wilson a liar for things the press says inarfully or incorrectly, and

(2) whether the 16 words were in fact false should be viewed not only by Wilson's findings, but other things we have learned to date about Iraq's nuke programs and nuke attempts. In other words: I can't tell you if Wilson was overstating his findings, but subsequent facts have emerged that make the attempted purchase of yellowcake very unlikely.

So, again, you cannot say for sure that Wilson was lying that his findings rebutted the 16 words. I think the facts have since shown he was correct. Recall the one error in a report that said "Iraq" did try to make a purchase when in fact it was a typo that meant to say "Iran." Also, the govt has admitted that documents were forgeries, and that the aluminum tubes were not likely nuke-intended.

BIG PICTURE here: parsing Wilson's words is not as important as looking at whether there was, in fact, any support for Iraq buying yellowcake. That is what matters at the end of the day. After all, Wilson's calling BS was what caused the White House to go ape-sh!t all over Wilson.

Drew,I blame the C... (Below threshold)

Drew,

I blame the CIA for lying to Bush.

Bastards.

After what has been revealed here I'm losing all faith in anything the CIA says.

I hope Bush never listens to them again. They can't be trusted.

For crying out loud, you're... (Below threshold)

For crying out loud, you're defending a man who orchestrated a smear campaign against a patriotic, triple-amputee war veteran--just because he wasn't playing for Karl's team!

Makes for a nice yarn, but the truth is, the voters of Georgia turned Cleland out of office because his voting record in toto was much more liberal than the citizenry cared for in a Senator.

POD Liberal:That Pla... (Below threshold)
sytrek:

POD Liberal:
That Plame worked for the CIA MAYBE was a secret, but Wilson irrevocably associated her name with the CIA.
Again:
Given the established public nature of her maiden name documented above, the day Wilson's editorial appeared in the NYT Valerie Plame went from being the wife of Joseph Wilson, former ambassador, retired, to the wife of Joseph Wilson, CIA contractor that goes on WMD hunts and can not keep his mouth shut.
What was she planning to tell her underground WMD contacts? Do not worry about my part-time CIA contractor husband?

For all the moonbats here c... (Below threshold)

For all the moonbats here crying bloody murder, please read Novak's column to find out why it's relavant that Wilson's Wife's name was identified as "Valerie PLAME" in Who's Who. And, then go back to your tinfoil and conspiracy theories about how Rove and Bush McHitler have lied and sold out American to Chinese economic interest, just like Reagan lied about the true character of the Soviet Union and sold out to Japanese economic interest. Oh wait, that stuff about Reagan was just overblown baloney, too... Right

I believe Wilson. He said S... (Below threshold)

I believe Wilson. He said Saddam never got any uranium from Niger.

That is a fact.

He also said it seemed like Saddam was trying to buy uranium from Niger. That is speculation. Saddam could have been trying to buy goats for a big party. There is no proof he was trying to buy uranium except for Wilson's speculation.

I think it was goats.

What else makes sense?

I think the reason Wilson was sent on the mission was that he could be trusted. He was not some lying agent with notional sub-agents trying to steal from the government.

Of course we hear all the time that the Brits still think that Saddam was trying to get uranium from Africa. I chalk that up to the perfidy of Albiion.

If only Tony Blair hadn't been so determined to go to war.

Proof positive that Bush is Blair's poodle.

British Imperialism strikes again.

Yanni,Does that ch... (Below threshold)
Tom:

Yanni,

Does that change one bit the fact that he orchestrated a smear campaign against a patriotic, triple-amputee war veteran?

I'm not saying Cleland would have won otherwise. I'm saying that Rove is a ruthless, heartless bastard. I'm saying that Rove isn't beneath running a smear campaign against a man who has given more for his country than just about anybody else alive today.

Do you dispute this, or do you like his vicious little brand of "politics as usual"?

CIA lied? Didn't W give Geo... (Below threshold)
Drew Edmondson:

CIA lied? Didn't W give George T a medal AFTER we didn't WMD's or active nuke program? Given his lack of judgement W should post here. After all it is one thing to believe a lie. What is being proven here it is another thing to keep believing a lie after it has been exposed. A last thought...I am sure that even those posting here I disagree with would, if you were President, show more compassion then W and leave your vacation and go to Ohio. Please try and defend W not doing this. End the Occupation September 24-26

Pardon if someone corrected... (Below threshold)
Zoomie:

Pardon if someone corrected these already, but I got tired of reading the same nonsense over and over.

1) To those who claim Novak said he got it from other reports, so therefore it was common knowledge Plame was CIA - HOGWASH! His own direct quote on the issue is:

"I didn't dig it out, it was given to me. They thought it was significant, they gave me the name and I used it." ["They" were his sources on the story, who he also had already acknowledged were TWO officials in the Bush White house]

Oh, and both the WashPost and NYTimes interviewed Wilson's neighbors and every one admitted to being VERY surprised Plame was a CIA agent. All described her as some sort of "energy analyst" who was the "perfect soccer mom" when at home.

2) Plame did NOT have a "desk job at Langley"! Please, people, are you really that dumb?

Plame was employed for several years (to the public) with Jennings-Brewster & Associates, based in D.C. They were supposedly a firm of energy analysts and advisors, who travelled the world to conferences, gov't meetings, and supposedly as advisors/analysts. In fact, the ENTIRE firm was a CIA undercover (like a national security secret) front, and all the employees NOCs (non-official cover - meaning they carried no official gov't passport. Should they get caught in foreign lands, they could be convicted of espionage, potentially executed). The firm is now empty and gone (what a surprise!). In fact, the agents had been working for years to PREVENT the proliferation of WMD. Now, all their work is blown. All the employees are burned as agents. And dozens of nations are closely checking if any of their nations scientists, officials, had contact with anyone from Jennings-Brewster & Assoc. Potentially (we'll never know the truth) dozens, even hundreds, of potential friends in foreign lands who would have slowed or stopped the spread of WMD are now suspect, have lost access, been arrested, maybe are dead.

All because Karl Rove and Associates wanted to punish Joe Wilson (remember - they could dispute Wilson's version of events without bringing up his wife, but didn't - it was personal). GOP politics trumps national security!

"I'd suggest it would be pr... (Below threshold)
Jackson:

"I'd suggest it would be pretty damn stupid to be on a NOC list and still work at Langely i.e. CIA headquarters."

"Correct. However you left out that she worked at Langely. Tough being a covert agent and reporting to Langely every day."

ed: Talk to Larry Johnson (a Republican), who, unlike you, actually WORKS at the CIA. For that matter, talk to *anyone* who works at the CIA. Please.

http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/7/24/134330/592
Today, while appearing on CNN's Late Edition, Roberts repeated the specious claim that Valerie Plame could not be undercover because she went to work everyday at CIA Headquarters.

Folks, there is no excuse for this level of incompetence.  There are thousands of undercover CIA employees who drive through the three gates at CIA Headquarters in McLean, Virginia everyday.  

I made it only part way thr... (Below threshold)
Dave:

I made it only part way through the comments. Kevin, you must have tripped the alarm wire out in tin-foil country.

I haven't heard from so many willfully uninformed twits in I don't know when. Not only that, but the level of personal abuse they seem to be comfortable spewing tells me they are not regulars on this site or any other site intelligent people congregate.

I refuse to debate with idiots. My only advice is, "Don't feed the fucking trolls." They go away if they can't generate some anger to feed off.

The significance of reveali... (Below threshold)

The significance of revealing her maiden name, Valerie Plame, was that the scandal-pushers claimed that in doing so, Novak was doing something dastardly.

Wilson furthered this complete BS on TV talk shows, and the media have carried it on. If you read most of the news articles written about this affair, you will see that they act as if her maiden name was a secret, and that giving her maiden name was a bad, bad thing that really screwed things over for her.

Wilson said on the Katie Couric show:

"But hypothetically speaking, as others have reported, including TODAY, it would be--it would be damaging not just to her career, since she's been married to me, but since they mentioned her by her maiden name, to her entire career. So it would be her entire network that she may have established, any operations, any programs or projects she was working on. It's a--it's a breach of national security. My understanding is it may, in fact, be a violation of American law."

This is why it is important to point out quite transparently that the name Valerie Plame was never a secret, and could have been found by anyone, and thus Novak's action of using her maiden name did not jeopardize anything at all on its own.

The only thing that ever would have damaged anything is that Novak wrote she was a CIA operative. The whining about the use of her maiden name was just complete BS from day one, and shows the true dishonesty and hollow ring to this whole affair.

1. It's not a crime for NOV... (Below threshold)
kgb999:

1. It's not a crime for NOVAK to disclose a CIA operative's identity - simply UN-AMERICAN. Journalists are free to speak, but when they betray our agents a true American will boycott them and run them out of the business. Journalists such as Novak have integrated their craft with their advocacy work in such a way that their actions are integral to the political "leakers" actually achieving benefit from their crimes. This is one-off information laundering allowing the political player to gain benefit from making statements that they don't want to be politically linked to. Playing accessory and protector to the powerful political operatives (who have now gotten access to all of our national secrets) provides these journalists with amazing personal benefits while they sell our secrets down the river. This is unprecedented and wrong and screams one name: Karl Rove.

2. Does anyone really expect the CIA to jump up and announce "she was TOO undercover - here just look at the list of successful missions she accomplished and assets she cultivated in 2003 alone!”? The nature of a covert operation is that you don't announce it - ever. If she was a successful covert agent, nobody would ever suspect she was anything but a lowly analyst or ever realize that she had been away from her desk (every heard of sick time and vacation?). This is why the CIA and justice department are responsible for determining if an agent was covert. They made the determination that she was. Unless someone was her direct (covert) supervisor and can account for every moment of her time over the last 5 years, I am going to have to trust the CIA and justice dept. I simply can't believe that both agencies are acting as a part of some great liberal conspiracy.

3. If the Republican Party has devolved into destroying the defenders of our country because those defenders dare to be Democrats, I think it is time for the Republican Party members to take a good hard look at themselves. Members of both parties who support America regardless of administration have always defended our national security. In return past administrations have been loyal to our agents regardless of political affiliation. This administration has broken that trust. It defies logic that someone with decades of loyal service - under democrats and republicans - would defile that by filing a false report for partisan reasons. More importantly, even if Joe Wilson had been wrong or lying about the Yellowcake (he was 100% accurate it turns out) it still would not justify destroying CIA operations in retaliation. Nothing justifies that.

Novak knowingly did this. What he did isn't a crime (unless as an accessory) but it should be.

Wow. So we can officially s... (Below threshold)
Hesiod:

Wow. So we can officially say that the name of Joseph Wilson's wife was listed in who's who!

Hmmm...I bet Joe Wilson's friends and Neighbors also knew he had a wife. And so did their mortgage company! Oh, and I bet the teachers at their kids' schools knew too!

Damn. Joe Wilson was spreading that top secret wife name info all over the place!

Of course, nowhere in Who's Who does it say she worked undercover for the CIA on WMD issues.

And that, of course, is the relevent issue.

Nice try though.


"The significance of reveal... (Below threshold)
Hesiod:

"The significance of revealing her maiden name, Valerie Plame, was that the scandal-pushers claimed that in doing so, Novak was doing something dastardly.

Wilson furthered this complete BS on TV talk shows, and the media have carried it on. If you read most of the news articles written about this affair, you will see that they act as if her maiden name was a secret, and that giving her maiden name was a bad, bad thing that really screwed things over for her."


It did. Because until Novak publicly spilled the beans, nobody knew that she was working for the CIA for all those years.

You're wasting your time ex... (Below threshold)
Hesiod:

You're wasting your time explaining facts to these traitors, zoomie.

As this and many other pieces of evidence strongly show, Republicans care more about protecting their own political backsides than our national security.

Hesiod:Since you kee... (Below threshold)
sytrek:

Hesiod:
Since you keep repeating your postings, I will repeat mine until you explain to me why this reasoning is incorrect.
That Plame worked for the CIA maybe was been a secret, but Wilson irrevocably associated her name with the CIA.
Again:
Given the established public nature of her maiden name documented above, the day Wilson's editorial appeared in the NYT Valerie Plame went from being the wife of Joseph Wilson, former ambassador, retired, to the wife of Joseph Wilson, CIA contractor that goes on WMD hunts and can not keep his mouth shut.
What was she planning to tell her underground contacts? Do not worry about my part-time CIA contractor husband?

Drew,I think Bush ... (Below threshold)

Drew,

I think Bush must go to Xenia, Ohio at once. Or possibly Troy.

Why Troy? A lot of radar detectors got built there. Fuzz Busters.

If Bush had better detectors he could find out more secrets. Like maybe he would know what is in the secret sauce. Now it is true the CIA might know the answer, but who can believe anything they say?

And that bit about Iran not having nukes for 10 years? A total lie. The Iranians have said repetedly they do not want nuclear weapons. Doesn't any one trust the official statements of the Iranian government? How can they get something they don't want?

Maybe Joe and Valerie need to go undercover to Iran and ask some questions at tea. Just to be sure.

I mean look at it this way: if America can build a nuke within four years starting from scratch, how could Iran possibly do the job with lots of stuff off the shelf in less than 10 years or even 20 years?

Who could believe it?

I'm not so easily fooled.

Just think. The American bomb was designed in the span of a year or so using a mechanical computer capable of at most 100 to 200 operations a second.

How could the Iranians possibly manage the same feat only using computers capable of at most a few billiion operations a second and more likely around 100 million? Who could believe it?

When you consider the handicaps the Iranians are laboring under how could they possibly develop a bomb, ever?

The CIA is lying to us again.

I think Rove put them up to it.

He is the most evil person on the planet. He can get reporters to call him and bring up conversations about secrets. I think he has secret mind control powers. He send out evil vibrations. In fact he could be on a Christian Crusade to steal our orgones and turn us all into hive people.

Simon - Too funny!... (Below threshold)
Paul:

Simon -

Too funny! If only Rove didn't forget to plant those WMD's in Baghdad last year, we may have gotten away with it! He must have been too busy using his "mind powers" calibrating the DeBold machines.

Hmmm.I must say th... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

I must say that the most astonishing thing about this thread is the vision of liberals extolling how wonderful patriotism is, how great and necessary the CIA and it's covert operatives are and that national security is paramount over any other issue.

Frankly either most of you are conservatives in hiding, playing a part in order push a political agenda or you're completely schizo.

Just the thing with the CIA is pretty bizzare. Liberals have hated and feared the CIA since the 1970's, and now they love the CIA.

....

Next thing you know they'll start in about how great the military is and how much it improves not just the posture of young adults, but their outlook on life, discipline and motivation.

Then my head'll explode like in that movie "Scanners".

It might be of interest to ... (Below threshold)
Sandman:

It might be of interest to review some of Wilson's truly prescient ideas put forth in a piece for "The Nation" in March 2003. Anyone remember reading this at the time?

This article can be found on the web at
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030303&s=wilson

Republic or Empire?

by JOSEPH WILSON

[from the March 3, 2003 issue]

As the senior American diplomat in Baghdad during Desert Shield, I advocated a muscular US response to Saddam's brutal annexation of Kuwait in flagrant violation of the United Nations charter. Only the credible threat of force could hope to reverse his invasion. Our in-your-face strategy secured the release of the 150 American "human shields"--hostages--but ultimately it took war to drive Iraq from Kuwait. I was disconsolate at the failure of diplomacy, but Desert Storm was necessitated by Saddam's intransigence, it was sanctioned by the UN and it was conducted with a broad international military coalition. The goal was explicit and focused; war was the last resort.

The upcoming military operation also has one objective, though different from the several offered by the Bush Administration. This war is not about weapons of mass destruction. The intrusive inspections are disrupting Saddam's programs, as even the Administration has acknowledged. Nor is it about terrorism. Virtually all agree war will spawn more terrorism, not less. It is not even about liberation of an oppressed people. Killing innocent Iraqi civilians in a full frontal assault is hardly the only or best way to liberate a people. The underlying objective of this war is the imposition of a Pax Americana on the region and installation of vassal regimes that will control restive populations.

Without the firing of a single cruise missile, the Administration has already established a massive footprint in the Gulf and Southwest Asia from which to project power. US generals, admirals and diplomats have crisscrossed the region like modern-day proconsuls, cajoling fragile governments to permit American access and operations from their territories.

Bases have been established as stepping stones to Afghanistan and Iraq, but also as tripwires in countries that fear their neighbors. Northern Kuwait has been ceded to American forces and a significant military presence established in Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates and Oman. The over-the-horizon posture of a decade ago has given way to boots on the ground and forward command headquarters. Nations in the region, having contracted with the United States for their security umbrella, will now listen when Washington tells them to tailor policies and curb anti-Western dissent. Hegemony in the Arab nations of the Gulf has been achieved.

Meanwhile, Saddam might well squirm, but even without an invasion, he's finished. He is surrounded, foreigners are swarming through his palaces, and as Colin Powell so compellingly showed at the UN, we are watching and we are listening. International will to disarm Iraq will not wane as it did in the 1990s, for the simple reason that George W. Bush keeps challenging the organization to remain relevant by keeping pressure on Saddam. Nations that worry that, as John le Carré puts it, "America has entered one of its periods of historical madness" will not want to jettison the one institution that, absent a competing military power, might constrain US ambition.

Then what's the point of this new American imperialism? The neoconservatives with a stranglehold on the foreign policy of the Republican Party, a party that traditionally eschewed foreign military adventures, want to go beyond expanding US global influence to force revolutionary change on the region. American pre-eminence in the Gulf is necessary but not sufficient for the hawks. Nothing short of conquest, occupation and imposition of handpicked leaders on a vanquished population will suffice. Iraq is the linchpin for this broader assault on the region. The new imperialists will not rest until governments that ape our worldview are implanted throughout the region, a breathtakingly ambitious undertaking, smacking of hubris in the extreme. Arabs who complain about American-supported antidemocratic regimes today will find us in even more direct control tomorrow. The leader of the future in the Arab world will look a lot more like Pakistan's Pervez Musharraf than Thomas Jefferson.

There is a huge risk of overreach in this tack. The projection of influence and power through the use of force will breed resistance in the Arab world that will sorely test our political will and stamina. Passion for independence is as great in the Arab world as it is elsewhere. The hawks compare this mission to Japan and Germany after World War II. It could easily look like Lebanon, Somalia and Northern Ireland instead.

Our global leadership will be undermined as fear gives way to resentment and strategies to weaken our stranglehold. American businessmen already complain about hostility when overseas, and Arabs speak openly of boycotting American products. Foreign capital is fleeing American stocks and bonds; the United States is no longer a friendly destination for international investors. For a borrow-and-spend Administration, as this one is, the effects on our economic growth will be felt for a long time to come. Essential trust has been seriously damaged and will be difficult to repair.

Even in the unlikely event that war does not come to pass, the would-be imperialists have achieved much of what they sought, some of it good. It is encouraging that the international community is looking hard at terrorism and the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. But the upcoming battle for Baghdad and the lengthy occupation of Iraq will utterly undermine any steps forward. And with the costs to our military, our treasury and our international standing, we will be forced to learn whether our republican roots and traditions can accommodate the Administration's imperial ambitions. It may be a bitter lesson.

sirreal2001 I would gues... (Below threshold)
lin:

sirreal2001 I would guess that you’re a person of integrity and your actual values would actual condemn disclosing such information. If so, please stop defending the destructive actions of this administration. Or at least ask yourself if they truly deserve your trust.

Very amusing. And very creative, liberal use of name-calling. The trolls must have been from DU, Atrios or DKos. It's those sites that name call whenever someone doesn't agree with them and state that we must be dumb, evidenced because we don't agree with them.

The Libs come with all the accusations, but can't back them up (links anyone?), then they take a mixture of facts and guesses and jump to the conclusion that the Rove, Liddy, Bush ET. Al. are guilty of outing a CIA agent. Then they think we should believe the same thing as they do. They even go so far as to attempt to shame us into believing and accepting what they believe.

The fact is the investigation is not over. When it is we'll know more. But for now FACTS + GUESSES + JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS does not equal TRUTH. If we choose to wait until the investigation is over to declare someone guilty we'll do so.

If you Libs are wrong and Plame was not undercover or Rove and Liddy are not guilty of outing a CIA agent are you going to come back and apologies? Or are you going to do your usual-moan and bellyache and accuse the White House of covering up?

Oh, and keep believing those polls that over sample liberals and younger people, and sample people who are not registered to vote. When Democrats lose in 2006 and 2008 you can be just as shocked as you were in 2004, and will provide a good basis for the continuing (but untrue) accusations of stolen elections.

ed - How dare you ... (Below threshold)
ed:

ed -

How dare you question their PATRIOTISM! Its their God given right to selectively hate the military.

Hmmmm.Ok. I've r... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

Ok. I've read about 2/3rd's of this total nonsense of a comment section.

1. Could you please download and read the damn SCCI report?

2. Try, and I realise that this might be a first time for you logic virgins so go slow, to actually learn the details of what you're trying to unsuccessfully discuss.

About 80% of the stuff here in the comment section is just completely wrong.

Well Kevin, if nothing else now you know what will really bring in the webhits. If I were you I'd capitalise on it and really piss them off.

But that's me.

Cha-ching!

Hesiod,Again you c... (Below threshold)

Hesiod,

Again you completely don't get my point.

Yes, Novak disclosed that she worked for the CIA, that was the important part. That was the damaging part. That was the critical part.

Giving her maiden name, was not. He could have written Valerie Elise Plame, and it would not have made a bit of difference.

The only thing that made a difference was that Novak said that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA. He could have left out her name, and anyone could have found her name anyways. Using her name didn't change anything, although Wilson and the media keep pretending it did.

Want to know why? Because they pretend that using her maiden name showed that Novak "outed" her viciously, because her maiden name was supposedly a secret.

We know this not to be true, which shows that Novak's use of her name was nothing more than completely irrelevant.

Novak saying that she worked for the CIA, however, is what possibly had some fallout.

Read my blog post over at seixon.com if you still don't get it.

The "Name Game" is just a smokescreen, as it has absolutely nothing to do with her name at all.

Why is the Who's Who entry ... (Below threshold)
Tom:

Why is the Who's Who entry significant?

It doesn't state that Valerie Plame was a covert undercover CIA operative.

It was no secret that Valerie Plame was Joe Wilson's wife. The secret was her CIA status.

Using Who's Who as a way to support that it was Joe Wilson who leaked her name and status makes no sense.

It has nothing to do with the leaking of her name and staus as a covert undercover CIA operative. It is way off track and is simply an attempt to find some cover for the fact that Novak, Rove and Libby may have engaged in treason in violation of federal law.

George,The point i... (Below threshold)
john:

George,

The point is that Novak didn't have to release her CIA identity or the fact that she was his wife in order to make the point that Wilson's trip wasn't at the behest of Cheney's office (the ostensible point of Novak's column), but instead some lower level CIA types.

This is like basic fifth grade reading type stuff...

Why is the Who's Who ... (Below threshold)
lin:

Why is the Who's Who entry significant?

Because some were alleging that it had to be Rove and he had to have come by the information in top-secret documents from before her marriage. If not then Rove and then Novak would have referred to her as Valerie Wilson, not Valerie Plame. They were using that to claim Rove was guilty of getting the info from top-secret docs and so he had to have known that she was undercover, and that he was outing a CIA agent.

Here the Washington Monthly discusses it but doesn't claim Rove is behind it.

On a related subject, one of the most basic mysteries of this affair remains one of its most enduring: who gave Valerie Plame's name to Robert Novak? I don't mean "Joe Wilson's wife," I mean "Valerie Plame." Since she normally went by her married name, how did Novak know to use her maiden name, which she used only on Agency business? After all, nobody refers to a married woman by her maiden name unless that's the name she normally uses — or unless someone specifically suggests it to you. So who suggested it to Novak?

Now we know that Novak probably got her maiden name from Who's Who, so you can't automatically assume that Rove got the info from top-secret docs.

Gee, the moonbats must have... (Below threshold)
lin:

Gee, the moonbats must have decided to go play somewhere else for awhile. They must have become frustrated that we didn't bow down to them and say, "Yes, yes, I believe everything you tell me."

) Plame did NOT have a ... (Below threshold)
The Ace:

) Plame did NOT have a "desk job at Langley"!


uM, YES SHE DID. This isn't even in dispute. She put her employer Brewster Jennings and Associates on a 1999 donation to the Gore Campaign.
Her husband is writing op-ed's for the NYT, so secretive, huh? If she was "covert" please explain this:

CIA officer named prior to column

and this:

The media, including the New York Times, also assert that(in Footnote 7, page 8, of their brief) Plame's identity as an undercover CIA officer was first disclosed to Russia in the mid-1990s by a spy in Moscow.


The brief can be found HERE.

Its hilarious to see those on the left saying "covert" and "national security"
wow. I must have missed your concern about other CIA leaks, of classified information (like the Intelligence Estimate on Iraq) during the 2004 election campaign. You girls were complaining about that right?

Anyway, worth re-reading:
Harlow said to the Post that he did not tell me Mrs. Wilson "was undercover because that was classified." What he did say was, as I reported in a previous column, "she probably never again would be given a foreign assignment but that exposure of her name might cause 'difficulties.'" According to CIA sources, she was brought home from foreign assignments in 1997, when Agency officials feared she had been "outed" by the traitor Aldrich Ames.

Hardly the "jeopardized national security" the liberals are asserting, no?

Oh, one last point, do you ... (Below threshold)
The Ace:

Oh, one last point, do you libs REALLY THINK she used her maiden name, or married name, on these "top secret"/"covert" drives back and forth to langley? How does the disclosure of her name "jeopardize" these "top secret" operations exactly?


CIA Agent Valerie Plame Goes Undercover In Vanity Fair

Spy goes undercover in Vanity Fair

Mind you, this is AFTER this October 2004 statement from Wilson on meet the press:
"“MY WIFE has made it very clear that-she has authorized me to say this-she would rather chop off her right arm than say anything to the press and she will not allow herself to be photographed"

-By November, she was posing for pictures in Vanity Fair, go figure!!
Quite frankly, I'm glad these goof's aren't in government any longer.

You guys are funny. I read ... (Below threshold)
buck turgidson:

You guys are funny. I read about every fourth post and I can walk away with only one conclusion: most people to the right of Bernie Sanders are unable to read and can only comprehend talking points. The "Joseph Wilson lied" bullshit is simply incredible to anyone who actually read the opeds by Wilson and heard or read his interviews. The particularly galling line is, "He lied about being sent by Dick Cheney!" You're right, he was not sent by Ticking Dick. The only problem is that he never said that he was! What a bunch of morons!

john,What a pointl... (Below threshold)

john,

What a pointless smear of me there. Don't you think I know what you said? I was clearing up the matter of her name not having any significance in this whole affair at all, even though the media and Wilson kept pretending that it did.

Novak didn't have to say that his wife suggested him for the trip, true. He could have just said that it was someone at the CIA. Well... except for the fact that it was his wife. You see, that just makes it a lot more interesting.

The CIA contact told Novak not to use her name. Then Novak found that her name wasn't even a secret. So why did the CIA contact say that? Mistake? What the CIA contact should have told Novak was that he shouldn't say that it was Wilson's wife at all. Seems to me like the guy at the CIA screwed up.

Or maybe not, as it seems obvious that Plame's cover had already been blown by the Russians and the Cubans, thus there was really nothing more to be covering at all.

The critical fact to know is: was Novak ever told that Plame had any sort of undercover status that he should not disclose?

If not, then there is no wrongdoing by him.

Rove is also a smokescreen. He isn't the one who provided Novak with the information. Who did? Most likely Lewis Libby.

So then I ask: why has the focus been on Rove the whole time? Libby not interesting enough? Of course not, Rove is the king of the White House, and the Democrats and the media wanted to evict him. The lowly pawn of Libby was not worth the struggle.

Too bad for them, it seems that Libby might be the one who actually leaked Plame's occupation to Novak, and not Rove.

"Reminds me of the ... (Below threshold)


"Reminds me of the time when you guys were all of a sudden experts on Iraqi ties to Al Qaeda"

You evidently didn't read the Weekly Standard's report entitled "The Mother of All Connections".

Try again.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/804yqqnr.asp

Anybody remember that old A... (Below threshold)
fatman:

Anybody remember that old Alka-Seltzer commercial where the guy sitting on the side of the bed keeps moaning "I can't believe I ate the whole thing"?

After working my way through this thread, I now know how he felt. Anybody got some Alka-Seltzer?

Damn. While you guys were... (Below threshold)
keverama-ding-dong:

Damn. While you guys were arguing about this OJ Simpson got away.

http://www.Undergroundfilm.org/films/detail.tcl?wid=1014950

You're right, he was no... (Below threshold)
The Ace:

You're right, he was not sent by Ticking Dick. The only problem is that he never said that he was!

Yes he did. He certainly implied it, and Nick Kristoff wrote that he was. If he didn't mean to create that impression, why did he mention "Cheney's questions" and "The CIA investigation" and "chose me"??

Here is what Kristof wrote (with Wilson as the source)
"I’m told by a person involved in the Niger caper that more than a year ago the vice president’s office asked for an investigation of the uranium deal, so a former U.S. ambassador to Africa was dispatched to Niger"

Now upon reading that, what impression do you get?
are you able to read, or are you going by talking points??

More Kristoff via Wilson:</... (Below threshold)
The Ace:

More Kristoff via Wilson:

Mr. Cheney’s office got wind of this and asked the C.I.A. to investigate.

The agency chose a former ambassador to Africa to undertake the mission, and that person flew to Niamey, Niger, in the last week of February 2002

-Which is why the VP went on Meet The Press to say he never met him, didn't know him, didn't ask him to go, etc.

Here is what Kristof wrote ... (Below threshold)
keverama-ding-dong:

Here is what Kristof wrote (with Wilson as the source)
"I’m told by a person involved in the Niger caper that more than a year ago the vice president’s office asked for an investigation of the uranium deal, so a former U.S. ambassador to Africa was dispatched to Niger"


If Wilson is the source, but didn't write it, how can you say Wilson said it. I see no quotes attributed to Wilson. It seems like the writer miswrote or came to his own conclusions. I read what Wilson wrote in the NYTimes and he's very clear that Cheney's office asked someone to go and that the CIA sent him.


Let me give you something simple for logic.
"My mom said we needed milk and I went to the store."

You can conclude that my mom sent me to the store but that isn't solid logic. I don't think I need to explain that.

Wilson also says that he assumed Dick Cheney read his report (but he didn't). He's following incorrect logic. Same as everyone's doing to him.

You probably need to take some logic lessons.

BOTH sides are really fishing and assuming, here. Especially since there is SO LITTLE to read and SO MUCH being read into everything by people who shouldn't be doing this.

Let's make it simple:... (Below threshold)
keverama-ding-dong:

Let's make it simple:

"Mr. Cheney’s office got wind of this and asked the C.I.A. to investigate."

That means that the VP heard about something and asked someone at the CIA to investigate. It doesn't say who.

"The agency chose a former ambassador to Africa to undertake the mission, and that person flew to Niamey, Niger, in the last week of February 2002"

The Agency . That doesn't sound like Dick Cheney. It's not a talent agency. It's the CIA. They 'chose' someone and they went.

So. Dick talks to CIA. CIA hires Wilson. Wilson goes.

There is no Dick hires Wilson. The sentences don't say that. They don't even imply that. You'd have to be really slanted in your logic to even infer that it tries to mean that Dick hired Wilson.

By the way, Dick said he never met John Edwards and he was wrong there.

SO. Even the examples you present don't even back up unless you use pretzel logic.

"The "Joseph Wilson lied... (Below threshold)
lin:

"The "Joseph Wilson lied" bullshit is simply incredible to anyone who actually read the opeds by Wilson and heard or read his interviews."

Because the libs have decided to believe that Wilson is entirely truthful and doesn't have an agenda. Right??

So you are doing just what you accuse us of-BLINDLY believing whatever Wilson and the LLL's tell you to believe.

Oh the hypocrisy...........

That Daily Kos is something... (Below threshold)

That Daily Kos is something!

Talk about Talking Points Proliferation!

Google Advanced on Plame's NOC cover company:

Jennings-Brewster & Associates

Page after page after page of identical hits, all beginning with this phrase, verbatim:

"The Dun & Bradstreet database of company names lists a firm that is called both
Brewster Jennings & Associates and Jennings Brewster & Associates"

Lemmings.

And if y'all want to have a look at the actual text of the "Agee Law" and my take on it, try

http://hotelsierra.blogspot.com/

There's also my take on Sandy Berger and why I don't think his offense qualifies as a misdemeanor.

I never said Wilson didn't ... (Below threshold)
keverama-ding-dong:

I never said Wilson didn't lie or wasn't partisan. But you would have to gather up all his writings and interviews of him and read them yourself to make that assessment. You're clearing throwing in stuff from the RNC talking points rather than relying on sorting through his stuff yourself. I've done the exercise. I know what mistakes he made. You, sir, are totally looney-tunes wrong.

Liberals keep ranting tha... (Below threshold)
Baxter:

Liberals keep ranting that if Plame wasn't convert,
Fitzgerald would not be pursing the case.
I have yet to see one of you libs post an actual charge that has been brought forth by Fitzgerald,so
how do you know(perjury,obstruction of justice etc.)?

Liberals keep ranting that Who's Who does not out
Valerie Plame the super covert spy that drives to
CIA headquarters in her convertible jag every morning at her desk job.
Super agent Plame has not been out of the country since 1997 because
A.Mrs.Plames's identity was first disclosed to Russia in the Mid-1990's by a Moscow spy per CIA
officals.
B.Plame's name revealed in confidental documents
sent by the CIA to the U.S. Interest Section of the Swiss Embassy in Havana.
Super agent Plame's husband lists her name in
Who's who then is recommended by her to go on a fact finding mission about a dictator trying to
buy yellowcake uranium from Niger.It would not take 007 to find out Wilson's wife worked at the
CIA or that she was a covert agent pre-1997.
If other countries can steal weapons intel,agent
intel and many other secrets that Russia,China,France,Cuba and many contries have done over time,I think they could have found Super
Secret Valerie Plame.
If Valerie Plame is what you Liberals consider
such a major breach of national security,then no
wonder Clinton and Kerry worked so hard to gut
Intelligence while Usama reached his peak in the
90's.With under cover agents like this,who needs to spend money creating covert agents,will just
use Ambassador's and political officals wives and
husbands,no one would be suspecious of that.
But of course you liberals like to quote all the
facts you get from the MSM showing how Super Covert Valerie Plame is.This is the same MSM
(ABC,CNN,CBS,Fox,Gannett,NBC,Reuters,AP,WaPo)that
stated: "Plame was not given the "deep cover" required of a covert agent.She worked at a desk job at CIA headquarters,had been residing in Washington- not stationed abroad for a number of years... the CIA FAILED TO TAKE EVEN THE USUAL STEPS TO PREVENT PUBLICATION OF HER NAME.
amicus curiae brief presented by these news organizations and about two dozen more appealing the grand jury subpoenas for Matthew Cooper and Judith Miller.
Not just crazy rightwingers saying this
is it you super intelligent liberals.
That liberl intelligence shinning through!
Of course if Clinton had accepted the Sudan's offer to hand over Usama on a silver platter,we probably would not even be discussing Wilson or
9-11 for that matter.
But liberals don't want to talk about the real intelligence blunders they have committed,they would rather cut and paste information to make their political points.Here's a good cut,
Joe Wilson:What they did,what the Office of the Vice President did,and, in fact,I believe nor from
Mr.Libby's statement, IT WAS PROBABLY THE VICE PRESIDENT HIMSELF...(LATE EDITION 8/3/03)
I don't care what he said after or before,you liberls say he did'nt say that Cheney sent him.He
did say it.Your cries about being taken out of context are worthless.Practice what you preach.
liberals say that the president moved the goal posts on firing anyone shown to have leaked information that exposed the identity of Wilson's
wife. Just like you Liberals like to say.Show me
where "exactly" the President said this.
Sept.30,2003
Bush was asked "Do you think that the Justice Dept. can conduct an impartial investigation,considering the political ramifications of the CIA leak,and why wouldn't a special counsel be better?
reply by Bush:(list reply that is relevant,google if you need total reply)
"There are just to many leaks.And if there is
a leak out of my administration,I want to know who it is.AND IF THE PERSON HAS VILOLATED LAW,THE PERSON WILL BE TAKEN CARE OF.

Exact words,no firing of leakers or any of the liberal cut and paste.But here it comes anyway.

June 10,2004.
question:Given recent deveopments in the CIA leak
particularly Vice President Cheney's discussions with the investigators,DO YOU STAND BY WHAT YOU SAID SEVERAL MONTHS AGO, a suggestion that it might be diffucult to identify anybody who leaked ath agent's name?
"and ,and, do you stand by your pledge to fire anyone found to have done so?
Bush:yes,and that's up to the U.S. Attorney to find the facts.
So liberals,you are so high on needed the "exact" words for your arguments,show me where the
President said this in his original statement.
please let your intelligence shine through.
America is attacked time and time again while liberals are in power,allowing Usama to grow stronger and stronger while liberals cut defense and intelligence.They constantly quote proven liars like Wilson,Clarke and Micheal Moore to back up their conspiracy theories and cut and paste arguments.Then pat each other on the back and tell
each other how intelligent they are.You liberals are like the jerk in the club who is always telling everybody about all the women he is screwing,yet you never see him with one.
Liberals are always talking about how intelligent
they are because it doesn't show.
I mean come on,Bush wins in 2000, is re-elected in 2004 and Blair is re-elected and liberals want
the world to believe that they are the only people
that know anything.
Keep chasing Rove while the rest of America
fights terrorism,enjoys a strong economy and provides solutions for a better future.

Actually, Bin Laden was cre... (Below threshold)
keverama-ding-dong:

Actually, Bin Laden was created by Reagan and Bush during their terms. Most of the shit we are dealing with now had it's seed in the 70's and 80's. Clinton mostly ignored what was going on (as all of us in the country did because we were in a boom, making money, getting drunk, and banging chicks) and it snapped back at us. I think we can all agree that our government and our corporations have put us at risk internationally by their actions in the last quarter of the 20th century. If you want to run around blaming just DEMS or just REPUBs then I guess you can keep swirling around the drain until we go down it merrily. The chinese are knocking at the door looking to collect the rent. They have nukes and an army of millions.

Hey Baxter. Is your spell ... (Below threshold)
keverama-ding-dong:

Hey Baxter. Is your spell check broken or are you cutin' and pastin' from the hick version of CNN's transcripts?

Just checkin'

I can't wait until the inve... (Below threshold)
Rich:

I can't wait until the investigation is over.

It's gonna be like election 2004 all over again. Remember? The Dems thought it was a done deal and then the inaccurate exit polls snatched their hopes away. Hundreds of millions of dollars, years of work, countless Bush-bashing books, one moonbat "documentary", and hundreds of dumb-ass celebrity Kerry endorsements for NOTHING. Ahh. Like someone snatching a lollipop from a fat kid. Priceless.

Apparently, some recent pos... (Below threshold)
Jeff Gannon:

Apparently, some recent posters have not been reading this blog carefully, so I repeat the facts:

WILSON NEVER said that Dick Cheney sent him to Niger -- in fact he has suggested the opposite since 2003. Repeatedly.

What Wilson said was that Cheney or Cheney's office had a question on the issue, and it was the CIA's decision to send him.

I know that this point is confusing to you Republican Non-Thinks, but the record is clear.

Long before you Non-Thinks came up with this lie, Wilson told none other than Jeff Gannon (in his now somewhat infamous interview), the following. All of his statements concerning Cheney have been consistent on this point.

http://tinyurl.com/bynaf

Read it and weep (and just try to explain):

"TN: Did the White House have any advance notice that you were going on this mission?

Wilson: I doubt it. The way that this works is that the vice president is acknowledged as asking the CIA briefer if he has anything on this subject. That is taken by the CIA briefer as a tasker. The CIA briefer goes back and tasks it at the operational level. The operators then decide how best to answer the question and in this case they did a number of things that I am aware of. One, they had this meeting at which they tried to fill in all information gaps they had, and two, they asked me if I would clear my schedule to go, and three, after I said that I might be prepared to do that, we gamed out what might be gained by my going out there."

------------------

How hard is it really?

Wilson:

(1) VP Office had Q.
(2) CIA decided to send me in order to deal with the Q.
(3) I reported to CIA, and assumed they informed the VP Office.

Look at Wilson's comments, he consistently says the "Agency" sent him -- as he said in his 2003 article: "The agency officials asked if I would travel to Niger."

----------------------------------
Wilson has consistently said that Cheney probably had no idea of his mission.

This is from the August 3, 2003, CNN's Late Edition quote that the RNC, in its talking points, cuts from, yet omits the following preceding statement from Wilson:

"WILSON: Well, look, it's absolutely true that neither the vice president nor Dr. [then-national security adviser Condoleezza] Rice nor even [then-CIA Director] George Tenet knew that I was traveling to Niger."

----------------

A careful review of Wilson's prior statements. would have lead an honorable person to conclude that they COULD NOT allege that Wilson said it was Cheney who sent him. You just cannot make that claim under a review of all the facts. No way.

And Rich. What is your pri... (Below threshold)
keverama-ding-dong:

And Rich. What is your prize from all of this?

You still can't count yourself among the elite, rich, and powerful. You still are part of the many going down the toilet in this country because your not part of the 1% that holds 97% of the wealth. You have your car, maybe a house, eat where you want. I can't see how anything going on right now works out for you long term. The same applies for the other people on the other side. We are in the dinghy while they ride in the yacht. Good for you Rich.

The real crime here is that... (Below threshold)
ATM:

The real crime here is that CIA personnel think they can use their family members to play political games in Washington while remaining anonymous using a law intended to protect agents' lives who are actually in situations where their life or the lives of their contacts are in danger. The only thing I can say is that CIA personnel who use their positions and protected status to conduct political shenigans like Plame did should be fired and prosecuted. CIA agents are not supposed to run operations in the US or engage in political activities making use of CIA resources and information gather by the CIA. Plame has done that and should lose her job.

Yes. I suppose CIA agents ... (Below threshold)
keverama-ding-dong:

Yes. I suppose CIA agents that create havoc in other nations, assist in the overthrow of legitimate governments that don't serve the US's interest, and kill foreignors are just ducky.

Get with it ATM. The CIA is corrupt, the US government is corrupt. They all do whatever they feel like doing and we let them.

Sad

I see the moron quotient ha... (Below threshold)
Buck Turgidson:

I see the moron quotient has not declined in the last couple of hours. Between The Ace, lin, and Baxter we've got all the talking points in order. Ding-dong did a pretty good job of debunking the main talking point--Wilson never said that "Cheney sent him to Africa". Nor did he say that he found "nothing". In fact, his report says something different--that no transaction could have plausibly taken place. He did not reject the possibility that Iraq made inquiries, but these were not followed up to the point of rising to "seeking uranium".

Baxter makes a particularly retarded argument. It's not an issue that Fitzgerald is investigating therefore a crime has been committed. Quite to the contrary--Fitzgerald only was hired to investigate because it was already known that a crime was committed. The CIA cannot seek an investigation and certainly cannot ask the Justice Department to open a criminal case if no crime plausibly has been committed. The issue is not whether Rove did or did not commit a crime--the issue is who committed the crime. If Plame was not a covert agent then no crime could have possibly been committed. If CIA found no violation during an internal investigation, they could not go to the JD and say, "We found nothing, but make a case anyway because we are pissed." THe only way CIA could have referred the case to JD if there was a clear evidence of a violation, namely, the revelation of a covert agent's identity by someone to someone else--we don't know who revealed what information to whom, but we know that Novak was one of the eventual recipients and Rove and Libby were somewhere in the chain spreading the information. If they received it from a source who had an obligation to withhold this information, then their source is the criminal. If they found the information as a part of their official capacity, then they are the criminals. Novak should be in jail just out of general principle, but he's not the one who was in a position to commit a crime--he had no direct access to classified info, so he had nothing to reveal that he would have known to have been classified.

Of course, when someone says, "CIA found a criminal violation," Baxter reads, "Fitzgerald is manufacturing a criminal case." As I said before, these buffoons don't know how to read.

lin is another dipshit. He wrote,

Because the libs have decided to believe that Wilson is entirely truthful and doesn't have an agenda.

What the hell is this about? I didn't say that I believe Wilson (nor did I say that I am a liberal, but that's another matter). But the issue is whether the accusation of him lying is based on facts or just on the general principle that an accusation of lying is the way to cover up your own crimes. What I wrote is that based on his words, Wilson cannot possibly be accused of lying about the specific points that he's been accused of lying about, e.g., having been sent by Ticking Dick. Whatever misleading information you might have thought he provided at the time (or, likely more accurately, exaggerated the urgency), his information--and his claims based on that information--have ultimately proven to have been correct. At the same time, the information on which the White House supposedly based its war plans was 1) proved to have been wrong, 2) was suspected to have been fake even before Wilson's trip, 3) relied on known liars and spies for Iran. Good one, lin, we trust Iranian spies, but not American diplomats. A true Bush supporter in all his glory!

Go Buck! The 'brainiacs' m... (Below threshold)
keverama-ding-dong:

Go Buck! The 'brainiacs' must have gone back to playing video games.

This has long been one of t... (Below threshold)
Joe Satry-anny:

This has long been one of the most moronic blogs on the Internets. Kevin, you're so fucking stupid, you couldn't pour piss from a boot if the instructions were printed on the heel.

Please inform us how the... (Below threshold)

Please inform us how the CIA has “undercover operatives” “operating” in the United States.

Look, I'm allowed to indulge my "10th grade histrionics" if you're allowed to just make shit up.

I never said anything remotely like the above. Yes, Valerie Plame Wilson was an undercover operative. Much of that time -- I'd say *most* of that time, in all likelihood -- she was ostensibly stateside. But you see, she was a NOC, which means she had a black passport, which means she prolly got to leave the country on "double super-secret background," without, you know, listing that fact in her Who's Who resume, or sending you an email.

You also may also want to write about exactly what Mr. Fitzgerald is now investigating. Exactly what statute(s) are involved in this investigation? Well sport, nobody posting here knows exactly what statute(s) have possibly been violated or what possible violations Mr. Fitzgerald has been investigating.

Hey, they post all those federal laws and regs on the Internets! Go check out FindLaw.com. Try googling the 1917 Espionage Act, or look up standard federal secrecy form. I'm not terribly interested in bringing you all up to speed on the various and sundry laws that could be brought to bear, when you seem perfectly happy here, bathing in the fact-free Wingnut Kool-Aid.

If Ms. Plame was an “undercover operative” “operating” in the United States then there is a chance that Mr. Fitzgerald is investigating Ms. Plame, her handlers and her superiors in the CIA.

ROTFLMAO. Gee, d'ya really think so? Sure, and he's gonna indict Dan Rather, too, for hiding all the WMDs. If I were you, I'd step away from the crackpipe, bunky.

I do not think that Mr. Fitzgerald is investigating the CIA, but I certainly could be wrong on that point. Considering what little we know about this case it is asinine to assume that Ms. Plame was (illegally) doing “undercover” work in the United States. Period.

Good, I'm glad you now concede that your hallucinated argument that Fitzgerald is investigating the Wilsons, rather than the security leak, is asinine. Because it was never remotely *my* argument.

Now Mr. Scott, if you have a reason that we should believe that Ms. Plame and her CIA superiors were breaking the law by having Ms. Plame operate in an illegal undercover fashion please do share this insight with us

Do, please focus:

She. Left. The. Country. Intermittently. Secretly.

One or more times in the legislatively-mandated time period.

Or -- believe me -- Karl Rove's lawyer would have brought it up to the trial judge and five appellate judges who have already reviewed Fitzpatrick's investigation. Trust me, if this was an issue that could reverse a conviction, it would likewise stop Fitzgerald's investigation in its tracks.

Hey Joe. You keep trying ... (Below threshold)
keverama-ding-dong:

Hey Joe. You keep trying to ass fuck those farm animals. Somebody gonna love ya' someday

Hey kerverama, Jus... (Below threshold)
Baxter:

Hey kerverama,

Just like an "intelligent" liberal,
don't address the facts just make smart ass
comments.

while your spell checking,did any of the top secret documents in Bergers pants have any errors.

Oh thats right,you liberals don't consider stealing
top secret documents during the 9/11 commission hearings to help protect us from terrorism
important.
But if Karl Rove says "yeah, I heard that to"
it's treason by God.

Your argument about creating Usama makes about as
much sense as saying that if Afghanistan attacks
India and uses any weapons aquired from the U.S.
25 years from now, it's our fault.
Funny you don't blame France and Germany or the
many other nations that supplied Afghanistan with
weapons.In case you forgot, the U.S. was 11th on the list of nations that supplied weapon's in the
1980's to fight off the communist invasion.
But your superior intelligence probably by-passed this information because helping local rebels fight off an invasion by a communist country doesn't concern someone totally motivated
by scoring political points.
only cherry picking information for you war on
Bush is important.

That's why liberals are not upset when fake documents smearing a sitting president to influence a national election are pushed forward
as fact by the MSM.
Or that liberals that yelled so much about voter
fraud are found to be the ones committing the fraud.
(ac4vr.com)
Or that hundreds of thousands of dollars donated
to inner-city children and elderly people ended up
paying the salaries of your heros at Air America.
Or just about every stupid thing you liberals said about the war in Iraq and Afghanistan has turned out to be false.
a.Democracy won't work in the middle east.
(Guess all those elections killed that argument).
b.We will lose tens of thousands of American
troops and hundreds of thousands of civilians will
die for nothing.
(we have lost over 1,700 men and women in uniform and about 25,000 civilian deaths per the
Brooking Inst. Every life is sacred but a least
I am smart enough to know it's not for nothing.)
Elections,building up their own security forces,
free press,no more mass graves being filled etc.
etc. etc.
If I am such a dumb hick and you and your super
elite friends with all your vast intelligence are so right, why are all of us dumb red-staters in power.Why can't you produce your "Watergate" death
blow to the Bush administration that you have spent the last 5 years chasing while us dumb folk
progress in a country with a strong economy that
has not been attacked by terrorist since the big bad "Hitler" Bush progressed his policies through
a Democratic and Republican Congress.

I'm doing tit for tat, idio... (Below threshold)
keverama-ding-dong:

I'm doing tit for tat, idiot. I've certainly addressed my share of points.

Hesiod,What you sa... (Below threshold)

Hesiod,

What you say is so true.

Did you know the right wing shills at the NY Times outed a secret CIA spy operation possibly involved with torture?

The Right just doesn't care.

Baxter. I'm not sure where... (Below threshold)
keverama-ding-dong:

Baxter. I'm not sure where to start with you, asswipe.

First of all. I'm fine and dandy with criticizing all seated presidents. I couldn't stand Clinton but not for your stupid stated reasons. You think the Berger thing is bad. How about pardoning Marc Rich? What about NAFTA and GATT? Give up the blow job, dude. That's about as stupid as you can get.

How about blaming Bush Senior for Iraq. He didn't finish the job. Had he, we might not be in this fix right now.

Bullcrap on weapons suppliers. We've armed the Chinese, The Contras, The Iranians, The Iraqis, etc. It's comforting to fight our own weapons because we can kick the shit out of them. And how would we know. That stuff is all classified. Don't point me to some stupid website. How the f'ck do they know?

How about this. Name ten things that Bush has done wrong? C'mon. You sit there in your pretty little dress and condemn the liberals for everything that is wrong but can't point a shit-covered finger at your own party. Your more warped than a Supertramp LP. What do you think? The more you kiss the Republican's asses the more they love you. It's not about you. It's about them.

So instead of standing in the muck telling everyone that your government loves you and that you live in the best place in the world, start looking at what's going down and critique it. Don't be a stupid Patriot because that won't work. This place only gets better if the people in charge (democratic, republican, black, white, male, female, etc.) are held accountable and operate in a transparent manner. We the people, remember.

As with many other people p... (Below threshold)

As with many other people posting here, I too have to say that the Who's Who entry says nothing about her being a CIA operative.

Didn't that guy who stormed off the set say that her name "was given to me?" Oops....

And, I wouldn't believe "Jumping off the" Cliff May if he told me it was daytime outside without opening the curtains first.

Some one in the thread aske... (Below threshold)

Some one in the thread asked Republic or Empire?

We now have the worst of all possible worlds.

A Republican Empire.

I blame Al Gore for losing the election. If he had won there would be nothing wrong with current policy even if it was exactly the same as Bush's policy. After all didn't Clinton sign some anti-Iraq law in 1998?

You see the real problem here is that as evey one know you can't trust Republicans. They eat babies. Well cow babys any way. Veal. Do you have any idea what the Republicans are doing to those cow babies? First they torture them. Then they kill them. Then they eat them. eeeeuuuuuuuwwwwww.

It is just like the war where Republican soldiers are wanton killers and the Democrat soldiers are trying to help the Iraqis.

If only the President would come up with a time table for leaving Iraq.

As long as it turns out no worse than Vietnam. It will be fine. You know re-ed camps, 100,000 political murders and 500,000 driven to sea. And a totolitarian government that forbids free speech. That would be all right.

Every Democrat knows in his heart that those damned uncivilized wogs are not worth a hair off the head of even one of our fine American boys. Why are we sacrificing for them?

We need to get out of Iraq now. I propose a slogan that will help. "No worse than Vietnam". One of those shining moments in American history where we left people alone to choose their own destiny. We should do it again.

Sytrek says:"Since... (Below threshold)

Sytrek says:

"Since you keep repeating your postings, I will repeat mine until you explain to me why this reasoning is incorrect.
That Plame worked for the CIA maybe was been a secret, but Wilson irrevocably associated her name with the CIA.
Again:
Given the established public nature of her maiden name documented above, the day Wilson's editorial appeared in the NYT Valerie Plame went from being the wife of Joseph Wilson, former ambassador, retired, to the wife of Joseph Wilson, CIA contractor that goes on WMD hunts and can not keep his mouth shut.
What was she planning to tell her underground contacts? Do not w