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Cindy Sheehan's Opinion Column

Cindy Sheehan, the mother of a U.S. soldier killed in action in Iraq, has written a column for The Huffington Post that's getting some attention in the mainstream media.

I thought I'd respond to some of the statements she makes.

This is George Bush's accountability moment. That's why I'm here. The mainstream media aren't holding him accountable. Neither is Congress. So I'm not leaving Crawford until he's held accountable.

Why is this the President's "accountability moment?" Because Cindy Sheehan and the anti-war activists tell us it is? It seems to this observer that the President's "accountability moment" happened back on November 2nd, when he was put back in office by a majority of electoral votes after receiving a significant majority of the popular vote. The President has been held accountable for Iraq by the American people, and those people put in back in office for another 4 years.

It's ironic, given the attacks leveled at me recently, how some in the media are so quick to scrutinize -- and distort -- the words and actions of a grieving mother but not the words and actions of the president of the United States.

Wait a minute...the President is never attacked or scrutinized in the media? His words are never distorted? That's news to me.

As for what's being said about Sheehan, some of it is no-doubt regrettable. I'm very sorry for her loss, but when she makes the decision to use that loss in politics she's going to have to withstand some criticism. She's making some fairly serious charges against the President and his administration. She is blaming the President, personally, for her son's death. She is calling him a murderer. Hyperbole like that is going to rankle some feathers. As much as we'd all like to spare grieving mothers they must be held accountable for their words and actions just like the rest of us.

But now it's time for him to level with me and with the American people. I think that's why there's been such an outpouring of support. This is giving the 61 percent of Americans who feel that the war is wrong something to do -- something that allows their voices to be heard. It's a way for them to stand up and show that they DO want our troops home, and that they know this war IS a mistake... a mistake they want to see corrected. It's too late to bring back the people who are already dead, but there are tens of thousands of people still in harm's way.

Whoa, back the truck up. Where is she getting the 61 percent figure? Is it from a poll like this one by the Associated Press? One that was manipulated to show a negative result for the President and/or the war in Iraq? I'm not willing to take Sheehan's word on this number. If she wants to throw a number like that around I'm going to need to know some facts about how it came into existence.

As far as I'm concerned, though, the most telling figure about America's approval of the President's handling of Iraq came to us on November 2nd. In an election that was very much about the war in Iraq the President won. Handily. Not much has changed about the President's handling of Iraq since then.

There is too much at stake to worry about our own egos. When my son was killed, I had to face the fact that I was somehow also responsible for what happened. Every American that allows this to continue has, to some extent, blood on their hands. Some of us have a little bit, and some of us are soaked in it.

Cindy Sheehan is not responsible for her son's death, nor is the President or anyone who supports the war. Some terrorist bastard over in Iraq is. Had Cindy's son not gone to Iraq he would probably be with us today, but it was his decision to go there. He re-enlisted, in fact, after the war had began knowing full well that he'd likely be headed to Iraq. He was an adult and made a decision. His decision was to continue his service in the military. He clearly believed in the mission, even is his mother does not.

People have asked what it is I want to say to President Bush. Well, my message is a simple one. He's said that my son -- and the other children we've lost -- died for a noble cause. I want to find out what that noble cause is. And I want to ask him: "If it's such a noble cause, have you asked your daughters to enlist? Have you encouraged them to go take the place of soldiers who are on their third tour of duty?" I also want him to stop using my son's name to justify the war. The idea that we have to "complete the mission" in Iraq to honor Casey's sacrifice is, to me, a sacrilege to my son's name. Besides, does the president any longer even know what "the mission" really is over there?

First of all, no parents can force their children to enlist. The reason this is true is because children don't serve in the military. Adults do. Full-grown men and women, capable of making the conscious decision to join the military, do.

The mission in Iraq was to remove a terror-sponsoring tyrant from power. We've done that. The mission now is to leave Iraq under the control of a democratically-elected government that is capable of keeping that nation secure from terrorist insurgents who would like to see the place turned back into a safe-haven for their training and operations bases.

Casey knew that the war was wrong from the beginning. But he felt it was his duty to go, that his buddies were going, and that he had no choice.

No choice? He most certainly had a choice. He didn't have to re-enlist, but he did. As for him thinking the war was wrong, signing up to fight in said war seems to me like a funny way of showing that.

The people who send our young, honorable, brave soldiers to die in this war, have no skin in the game. They don't have any loved ones in harm's way.

It seems rather ridiculous for us to require that our leaders have children in the military before we allow them to make decisions about international policy. Not to mention the fact that it is not in any of our leader's power to force their children into the military.

As for people like O'Reilly and Hannity and Michelle Malkin and Rush Limbaugh and all the others who are attacking me and parroting the administration line that we must complete the mission there -- they don't have one thing at stake. They don't suffer through sleepless nights worrying about their loved ones.

I haven't heard what O'Reilly, Hannity or Limbaugh have said about Cindy Sheehan. I certainly wouldn't label anything Michelle Malkin as said as an "attack." A strong response, yes, but when you call the President a "murderer" a strong response is to be expected. As for them not having anything at stake, I still think its ridiculous to make having loved ones involved in the conflict a prerequisite for having an opinion about said conflict.

Before this all started, I used to think that one person couldn't make a difference... but now I see that one person who has the backing and support of millions of people can make a huge difference.

Yes. One person, manipulated by anti-war activists (who are anti-semitic, if their website tells us anything) to politicize the death of her son, having their words trumpeted by a media establishment highly interested in even the most hyperbolic accusations against the current administration can make a large difference indeed.

That's why I'm going to be out here until one of three things happens: It's August 31st and the president's vacation ends and he leaves Crawford. They take me away in a squad car. Or he finally agrees to speak with me.

Seems to me like Cindy Sheehan already got to talk to the President once. On that visit she thought he was "sincere." Why should the President now take time to expose himself to accusations of murder? He knows what she's saying about him. Sheehan knows his reasons for the war. Neither are going to accept the other's stance. It'd be a colossal waste of everybody's time, but it would allow for an opportunity to garner some bad press for the President, which is really probably the point here.

My guess: She goes away in a squad car.

If he does, he'd better be prepared for me to hold his feet to the fire. If he starts talking about freedom and democracy -- or about how the war in Iraq is protecting America -- I'm not going to let him get away with it.

Right. Don't let facts get in the way of your anger. You let him have it Cindy. After all, he murdered your son, right? It wasn't the homicidal monsters we're fighting in Iraq, it was George W. Bush.

Like I said, this is George Bush's accountability moment.

If you say so, Cindy.

Update:

Drudge is claiming to have an email from some other members of the Sheehan family:

The following email was received by the DRUDGE REPORT from Casey's aunt and godmother:

Our family has been so distressed by the recent activities of Cindy we are breaking our silence and we have collectively written a statement for release. Feel free to distribute it as you wish.

Thanks, Cherie

In response to questions regarding the Cindy Sheehan/Crawford Texas issue: Sheehan Family Statement:

The Sheehan Family lost our beloved Casey in the Iraq War and we have been silently, respectfully grieving. We do not agree with the political motivations and publicity tactics of Cindy Sheehan. She now appears to be promoting her own personal agenda and notoriety at the the expense of her son's good name and reputation. The rest of the Sheehan Family supports the troops, our country, and our President, silently, with prayer and respect.

Sincerely,

Casey Sheehan's grandparents, aunts, uncles and numerous cousins.

By Rob Port of Say Anything.


TrackBack

Listed below are links to weblogs that reference Cindy Sheehan's Opinion Column:

» T. Longren linked with Cindy Sheehan, I Loathe

» The Jawa Report linked with About Those Approval Polls

» Dangerous Dan linked with Huff-Po, Sheehan, and a Rant

» Joust The Facts linked with Cindy Sheehan's Answer

» Angry in the Great White North linked with Cindy Sheehan: Cherie Quartarolo writes

» Blind Mind's Eye linked with The real test for Cindy Sheehan

» Shared Daily linked with A Message to Cindy Sheehan from Iraq

» Conservative Outpost linked with More Cindy Sheehan

» Neddy's Palaver linked with A Gold Star Mother

» The House Of Wheels linked with I'm wondering if I should care anymore

» Bring It On linked with A Tool of the "Radical Left"

Comments (141)

Its just sad, grief has cle... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Its just sad, grief has clearly drivent the women mad. I'm pissed at those who are pushing her forward rather than comforting her in her grief.

Tob

You are a toady if you side... (Below threshold)
calvin:

You are a toady if you side with the devil agaist a mom

oh, and Rob boy 'If you say... (Below threshold)
calvin:

oh, and Rob boy 'If you say so, Cindy.'

Wow - such repartee!

You are a toady if you s... (Below threshold)
DavidB:

You are a toady if you side with the devil agaist a mom

Wow - such repartee!

You should hold your tongue (typing finger) fool. Your response was no better, if not far worse . . .

Is the use of the name "toa... (Below threshold)
Marc:

Is the use of the name "toady" an example of your "repartee" Calvin or are you just playing stupid?

On second thought maybe your not playing

"double dittos" rob. she's ... (Below threshold)
JAB:

"double dittos" rob. she's lost her way, and she's disgracing herself.

thunder crashed over crawfo... (Below threshold)
r:

thunder crashed over crawford last night and "SHUT THE HELL UP AND GO HOME" could be heard.

just for the record rob, she never mentioned anything about "forcing" kids into the military, she said "encouraged"...

why do people so easily forget that it's the iraqi criminals that are teh evil 'devils'? get your heads out of your asses ppl.

Everyone feels for a mother... (Below threshold)
Steve L.:

Everyone feels for a mother who lost her son. Unfortnately, she has let her anger get the best of her. I know that she thinks she is attacking the person most to blame, but she is misguided. She also doesn't realize that all her "support" isn't support at all but, rather, an attempt by the President's enemies to take cheap shots at him without mussing up their hair.

The President loses this issue as soon as he acknowledges her. If he doesn't talk to her, he's unfeeling. If he does, then she can Say Anything (cheap plug for Rob) and get away with it since she is a grieving mother. Any repsonse from the President will either agitate the mother (unfeeling since she lost her son) or sound conciliatory and, thus, guilty.

He loses no matter what he does. There is hope though. In most cases, these types of protests die out because, eventually, people get tired of hearing the same thing over and over again. They will tune her out. Only the whackos on the extreme left will continue to pay her any attention. They can scream and shout all they want, but we al know what they are.

'You are a toady...'<... (Below threshold)
ICallMasICM:

'You are a toady...'

You are a poohpooh head

I saw some crosses in the v... (Below threshold)
vivi:

I saw some crosses in the vicinity with names on them. I hope the families of soldiers killed iraq sue Code Pink and the rest of them for uanuthorized usage of the name/image of their family member in this disgusting attempt at emotional blackmail. I don't have any sympathy for this woman any more - she is not the only mother who lost a son in this war. Why is she acting like she is? What makes her pain and sorrow more special than any other mother's?

You know if there were some... (Below threshold)
Charles Hill:

You know if there were some people out there that would go down there and protest against the protestors. Alot of this crap would be such a big deal. Especially if some soldiers families did this and showed they supported the president.

There's plenty of military ... (Below threshold)

There's plenty of military families that support our president. I dunno if it's not being covered or if they're not physically showing support.

I would gladly protest against the protestors.

Bush and his hip pocket cr... (Below threshold)
stewart:

Bush and his hip pocket cronies now have to deal with their agendas of lies and deceptions in order to go to war. All off you Bush supporters...not troop supporters... are blind...still...but the majority of Americans are waking up. The meltdown has begun and you can't stop it. You can't stop truth...no matter how much smearing you do.

61% She must have learned m... (Below threshold)

61% She must have learned math from Ted Rall.

Why do we automatically ass... (Below threshold)
chad:

Why do we automatically assume a mother must be virtuous? Would it be wrong to side against Andrea Yates or Lucria Borgia?

I am sorry that Cindy Sheehan lost her son, but let me pose a hypothetical. What if instead of every intelligence agency in the world being wrong about Iraq's WMDs they had been right? Wouldn't we be a lot sorrier now? Especially if he had launched a strike at Israel or the US. That's the choice that was facing us. what would all of you be saying if Bush had allowed the status quo to be maintained and merely lobbed a couple missles at Afghanistan and called it good?

I would like to be more understanding to Ms. Sheehan in her greif but I can't.

The rest of their family th... (Below threshold)
McCain:

The rest of their family think she is a self-serving nut. The heroic boy volunteered to serve his country with full knowledge of the dangers of war. He is the story, not her.

I declare this a liberal accountability moment. Anti-war protesters weaken resolve, embolden the enemy, lower morale, which in the end gets more soldiers killed.

There are few people worldw... (Below threshold)
-S-:

There are few people worldwide who cannot sympathize with a mother's (a PARENT'S) grief at the loss of a child.

Such that, here we have a woman, an individual, who has capitalized upon that sympathy -- whether she's done so intentionally or is out of touch to the degree that she does not perceive about what she is motivated and by whom is a good point to consider here, given the groups and other individuals with whom she's affiliated -- who is dispiriting that sympathy and denigrating her son's service.

Bin Laden says he intends to destroy the United States, Castro opines similarly for similar reasons, and many others who endorse and assist terrorist groups/means along with them...they all rely on the ongoing dissipation of faith in the country's efforts, in our nation as a group and civilization. Unfortunatley, the Left in the U.S. is all too eager to assist that process and what I can't figure out is why. It's either irrational egoism by attention-seeking persons or irresponsible antisocialism, or, probably both, but what the Left proves over and over again is that they are all too willing victims of those who intend true suffering, if not destruction, upon our democracy.

But, again, to what end? What's the "end result," the profit, if you will, the benefit of the "anti war" sentiments, particuarly: they never actually want an end to violence, but an escalation of violence -- it just depends on how "violence" is defined because the Left uses psychological and economic violence like a rapier.

I think most the rest of us just aren't intimidated. War is a terrible thing, yes, but sometimes there are no other choices -- responding to threats from those who are barbaric isn't realistic when it's done with free sandwiches and pretty pink teeshirts and hats. No one likes war, wants war, but maligning those who protect and defend when necessary is entirely dishonorable. Even when it's done by a grieving mother.

I watched the O'Reilly appe... (Below threshold)
-S-:

I watched the O'Reilly appearance and there is just no way...no.way...that O'Reilly could ever be described as "attack(ing)" this woman (or others who make similar claims). He questioned her. He posed alternatives to her positions. He provided her time -- more than usual -- to speak, to express herself. He didn't malign her, he didn't humiliate her, he made no untoward suggestions or comments...

I think what it is is that this woman has a very slim grasp on reality and that she is being manipulated terribly because of that by those who are almost certainly aware of what they're doing, and how.

Would Michael Moore attach ... (Below threshold)
MisterPundit:

Would Michael Moore attach himself to the emotional carcass of a mother who supports the war? Of course not! Beyond exploiting her for cheap propaganda, Sheehan's worth to the left is ZERO. It's sick.

Sheehan, willingly or not, is being used by radicals that include leftwing Jew haters and fascists. Some way to "remember" your son!

Although Stewart does seem ... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Although Stewart does seem to be a dreamer, this: " Bush and his hip pocket cronies" was a nice turn of phrase. Who says that the cognatively impaired can't be literate?

And Suzy, I wholeheartedly agree with this: "I think most the rest of us just aren't intimidated. War is a terrible thing, yes, but sometimes there are no other choices". Growing up in the Cold War gives one a sense of fatalism. We pretty much believed that a nuclear conflict with the old USSR was inevitable and that we would lose, (socialist supermen, command state and all that) but we internalized the saying, "Better to die on your feet than to live on your knees". I still marvel that we survived and that Ronaldus Magnus ended up toppling the commie superstate.

Tob

The most important question... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

The most important question Ms. Sheehan could and should be asking is one to herself. And that is: Am I honoring my son's death with this vigil?

Given the unabashed media coverage and the gaggle of columnists using this as fodder for their ant-war agendas and platforms, Ms. Sheehan's is undermining the very troops she claims she wishes to protect.

in fact, her actions empower our enemy to to believe that if they kill just one more soldier, detonate one more IED to take out a column of Marines, that America will turn tail, run back home and become the very "paper tiger" bin Laden and his sick brethren believed we were on September 10, 2001.

To empower and embolden our enemy this way, puts our troops in greater danger and only serves to stain the memory of those lost, and to make their loss truly in vain—particularly those and that of Army Spc. Casey Sheehan.

Casey volunteered for the Army. He was constantly aware of the danger. Soliders in training are repeatedly told this. To feign or imply that Casaey did not know this is a lie.

God rest Casey's soul. God rest the souls of all our fallen soldiers. I think and pray for all of them. But this is not the way to honor them, Ms. Sheehan. This is not the way.

Bush is stoked about this S... (Below threshold)
jim b:

Bush is stoked about this Sheehan thing...It has cleaned the slate of his last F-up...Karl Rove, and as far as I can see it was either a mother with one less child, or raising the TERROR ALERT. We are fucked already so.... Bush in '08!

"Bush in '08!" That must b... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"Bush in '08!" That must be Jeb.

It's amazing and pretty dar... (Below threshold)
lulu:

It's amazing and pretty darned amusing how frightened conservatives are of this former Catholic Youth Minister and Mom, Cindy Sheehan. All the press she is generating has got you folks pretty freaked out, from the looks of the previous posts. Now THAT"S entertainment! So just stay freaked out and yell really loud because it just means more press about this. And by the way, it's a tad early to be declaring any kind of victory for Rove since the Federal Grand Jury investigation isn't over until October. Yes, Bushbots, you SHOULD be scared. Your house of cards is crumbling, one cowardly criminal at a time.

"Yes, Bushbots, you SHOULD ... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"Yes, Bushbots, you SHOULD be scared. Your house of cards is crumbling, one cowardly criminal at a time."

Still waiting for the one. ;-)

Tob

I am not sympathetic toward... (Below threshold)
Johnny O:

I am not sympathetic toward this stupid woman..I dont think her loss has caused her to go mad..she is simply a moonbat who is using her sons death to make a name for herself and her silly cause..she is an incoherent mouth piece for those who wish to see America fail.

Btw <a href="http://www.huf... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Btw here is Sheehan's response to the letter on Drudge, which incidentally has disappeared from his page:

Still putting out the O'Reilly fires of me being a traitor and using Casey's name dishonorably, my in-laws sent out a press statement disagreeing with me in strong terms; which is totally okay with me, because they barely knew Casey. We have always been on separate sides of the fence politically and I have not spoken to them since the election when they supported the man who is responsible for Casey's death. The thing that matters to me is that our family -- Casey's dad and my other 3 kids are on the same side of the fence that I am.

Oh Toby, Toby, Toby. It's c... (Below threshold)
lulu:

Oh Toby, Toby, Toby. It's coming and you know it. Just come on and admit you're scared. By a Mom. So go on, give this some more press. Scream and shout and whine and spew vitriol all over the blogosphere. Show up in Crawford and do it there too. We welcome you with open arms. It only helps the liberal cause. What a lovely gift! So thank you. Really, thank you. ;-)

Sheehan met with Bush last ... (Below threshold)
capitano:

Sheehan met with Bush last year and said nice things about him after the visit. Now she wants to join the Left Wing Pity Posse (ala Kristin Breitweiser and the 9-11 Jersey Gals) so she wants a do-over.

I say: No Mulligans! That was the other President.

But enjoy the Crawford ambiance and perfect weather for camping. Normally it's well over a 100 degrees this time of year, but it's only in the high 90s with 90 percent humidity and an occasional gully washer to make sure the mosquitoes don't go thirsty.

Wow, evidence of the misinf... (Below threshold)
lulu:

Wow, evidence of the misinformation machine at it's best, capitano! Watch something besides Fox News and read something besides Drudge, would you? It's important to stay well informed so you don't look like a total DoucheTard. Unless, of course, that is what you are going for. In that case, mission accomplished! We are laughing AT you, not with you, capitano. Just so you know, since you obviously don't pick up on much. HA!

S wonders: "But, again, to ... (Below threshold)
Cousin Dave:

S wonders: "But, again, to what end? What's the 'end result,' the profit, if you will, the benefit of the 'anti war' sentiments?"

I'll tell what it is: They are wannabes. They know they are so clueless that they can't possibly succeed within the existing system. So they want to get rid of it. Unable to carry out this function themselves, they align themselves with anyone who appears powerful enough and ruthless enough to do the job they won't do themselves. And then they think that, after the revolution, they will be in power. They will have control. Their word shall be law. They will have life-and-death power. They will be able to eliminate all who aren't exactly like them.

Because that's their real problem. They cannot tolerate diffferences of opinion, of thought, of beliefs. The universe is not just as long as any exist who do not think as they do. In a just universe, all of their wishes would come true. Ergo, it follows that the presence of these dis-believers is what prevents the universe from being a just one. It becomes a philosophical mandate (a religious one, if you will) for them to eliminate all others so that the universe will be pure and just and pork chops will grow on trees and the entire Earth will enjoy San Diego weather year-round. Mind you, it's not anything that the dis-believers do that prevents the universe from being a just one -- it's their very existence, in the same way that James Randi's presence prevented all of those psychic experiments from working.

Deep in their hearts, I think the moonbats realize that their entire premise is a fairy tale, and that they are doomed to go through life as bitter, disaffected wannabes. But they can't admit it to themselves, because without that bitterness, their lives would have no purpose. And then what would they do? Enjoy life like other people do? Surely you jest.

OK, I'm like totally humble... (Below threshold)
capitano:

OK, I'm like totally humbled and recant my earlier statement.

Crawford really is an urbane mix of Davos and Seattle.

Cousin Dave said:... (Below threshold)
lulu:

Cousin Dave said:
Because that's their real problem. They cannot tolerate diffferences of opinion, of thought, of beliefs. Hello Pot? This is kettle. You're black! Go back and read what I said to capitano. You have to get out of your echo chamber every once in a while or you risk the level of ignorance you display above. Although, as far as entertainment value goes, you are pretty damn funny!

capitano said: OK, I'm ... (Below threshold)
lulu:

capitano said: OK, I'm like totally humbled and recant my earlier statement. Thanks. I knew you'd come around. Welcome to Reality: where intellectualism isn't demonized and we can read above an eighth grade level. I'm glad you joined us now, because BOY do you have a lot of catching up to do!

"WE welcome you with open a... (Below threshold)
JAB:

"WE welcome you with open arms".

"WE are laughing at you".

what's with all this "WE,WE" business lulu? you got a mouse in your pocket. you're starting to sound like one of those terrorist videos. you know, the one's put out by the type that killed sheehan's son. you are insufferable.

And you, JAB, are frightene... (Below threshold)
lulu:

And you, JAB, are frightened. Oh, and entertaining! "Mouse in your pocket?" DAMN, you ought to be doing stand-up with material like that.

Let me be clear. No one ha... (Below threshold)
Juan Garza:

Let me be clear. No one has more right to express their views and receive support for their efforts than those who have suffered the loss of a child that they reared and/or bore. Ms. Sheehan, in my opinion, has exposed the Limbaugh's, Hannity's and O'Reily's for what they are ... puppets of the Republican Party. Those who are conservative and share many of the views of these puppets should tell them, the puppets, they have crossed the line.

Why?

Because we are at war with terrorism. And the more divided we become the more of my and your great grandchildren (yet to be born -some of you will get this... the others need to read some philosophy...) will die because we are not united. My President, I know that many people don't feel that way but if you believe in freedom - we have no choice to accept that, has acted in a manner that fails to take into consideration the importance of unity of the American People. He fails to see that victory in this war will come at a heavier cost if he does not make every effort to achieve consensus. He seems to operate with the arrogance of a dictator. Those of you who voted for him should think about the future. Would that future be more secure if our leader listened to opposing views and made efforts to take a course of action that brings most of America with him. It is you who voted for George Bush who has a responsibility to your fellow American to understand that preponderance of evidence that President Bush lied ... mislead and tries to destroy, via character assassination against, anyone who does not embrace his view hook line and sinker. It is you who must hear Ms. Sheehan's pain and tell President Bush not worry about the polls ...That above all else he has a duty to answer to the American People. It is you, the Americans who support him, that need to make him understand that he, President Bush, is nothing in relation to unity of this Nation must have to destroy our enemies.

Did you really just sign of... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Did you really just sign off with the name of a dead marine, or is your name really Juan Garza?

(I guess I shouldn't talk since I am not, in fact, a mantis.)

um....'scuse me...... (Below threshold)
zeppo1:

um....

'scuse me...what exactly did this woman do to make everyone here so angry?

Just curious.

"Btw here is Sheehan's resp... (Below threshold)

"Btw here is Sheehan's response to the letter on Drudge, which incidentally has disappeared from his page"

I've been in touch with both Cherie Quartarolo and Melanie Morgan. You can see the comments here.

http://angrygwn.mu.nu/archives/111459.php
http://angrygwn.mu.nu/archives/111600.php

Also, I've noted another response from Cindy Sheehan to the rest of her family (which is now minus her husband, apparently), and it's frighteningly cultish.

http://angrygwn.mu.nu/archives/111632.php

Yes, I am the real... (Below threshold)
Juan Garza:

Yes,

I am the real deal. I was not aware of a name sake giving his life for our liberty.

I don't believe in handles to much...

"Scream and shout and whine... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"Scream and shout and whine and spew vitriol all over the blogosphere."

I have never spewed vitriol and only whined a little bit.

LOL

Lulu, do you even read the posts your commenting on? I'm just waiting for the FIRST Bush administration figure to be indicted or to leave 'under a cloud'. To my knowledge, there haven't been any. I declare the Bush administration 'The most ethical administration in modern times'.

Lulu, are you really you JoeMama or JMAR returned from the banned? ;-)

Tob

"what exactly did this woma... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"what exactly did this woman do to make everyone here so angry?"

I'm not angry, just saddened at this woman pain and angry at those who use her.

Tob

Good point, Zeppo1. Their ... (Below threshold)
lulu:

Good point, Zeppo1. Their anger stems from fear. Fear that this WH is being outed for the liars and criminals they are – by a dead soldiers MOM! - and all they can do is stand by helplessly and watch it all happen. And they're also angry simply because they can't stand being wrong. They hate that!

Whoa! Someone wrote that u... (Below threshold)
-S-:

Whoa! Someone wrote that us conservaives were "angry," that Ms. Sheehan had induced "anger" among Republicans, had "exposed" (various media OpEd individuals)...

Next we'll be reading that Ms. Sheehan can shoot lightnin' bolts from her arse. No, wait, that was William Wallace, who, by comparison, I admired and still do.

Let's see...the last time I was "angry" was...you know, I can't recall feeling "angry" at most anything recently. Concerned about specific issues over time but not "angry." Certainly I am not nor have been recently "angry" about a person in the news who from her appearances is emotionally troubled (d'oh). Not the sort of person nor her incidents about which I feel "anger" or respond in kind, even. As in, I'm not calling Ms. Sheehan a "sneaky, stupid poopoohead" or something, demanding she come out to CA and "meet with me -- and now! Meet with me now! Are you too afraid?"

And lulu, somehow "your" (as in, that group that you use to refer to yourself) "open arms" ... um, nothankyew.

The only people displaying emotional disturbance about Ms. Sheehan are Ms. Sheehan and the various upset opinions on this thread, hate mail about Ms. Sheehan (who, supposedly, if the hate mail is to be believed, the rest of the world is harming somehow -- perhaps it's the "we're not meeting with (her)" thing) and various overheated columns about Ms. Sheehand and Rove and Bush and Rove, and, oh, Bush, and NeoCons and Rove and pink and Rove and...

In all seriousness, you all need to get a grip. I now see, however, how it is that Bill O'Reilly being polite and professional with Ms. Sheehan has caused her so much anxiety. There is nothing that anyone can write or opine that is not an "attack" and/or "anger" about Ms. Sheehan...in the perceptions of some.

The rest of us read about it, write an opinion about it when asked or it is suggested as topic, or our opinion is otherwise solicited (as here) and then go on and do the laundry. Or, in my case, the dishes and then drink a bottle of Pellegrino.

lulu, you should meet "minn... (Below threshold)
-S-:

lulu, you should meet "minnie."

Step out of the office for ... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Step out of the office for a few hours and there so many post to respond to.

"My President, [...] we have no choice to accept that, has acted in a manner that fails to take into consideration the importance of unity of the American People."

Juan, I appreciate the civility of you post, but please, it takes two to tango. One side can't call someone a liar and warmonger and then decry the lack of unity. You can't be devisive and then complain of division. (I didn't even need to read any philosophy to figure that out ;-)

As far as the worthiness of the war, we just have to disagree. Good thing we each get one vote. God, I love democracy.

Tob

Toby, as I said, "It's co... (Below threshold)
lulu:

Toby, as I said, "It's coming and you know it."

S, Mrs. Sheehan did not app... (Below threshold)
lulu:

S, Mrs. Sheehan did not appear on Bill O'Reilly's "show." Are you sure you aren't drinking something stronger than Pellegrino? So after doing the dishes, why on EARTH did you decide that you needed to return here and comment? Hmmm?

""what exactly did this wom... (Below threshold)
zeppo1:

""what exactly did this woman do to make everyone here so angry?"

I'm not angry, just saddened at this woman pain and angry at those who use her.

Tob"

Still confused. Who exactly is using her?

I see we have a new pet tro... (Below threshold)
BR:

I see we have a new pet troll, or is it an oldie coming out as its true self - cuckoo lulu. Here's one to chew on for Mr. Pavlov's doggie:

Recently, <a href="http://c... (Below threshold)
BR:

Recently, ConfederateYankee observed that the moonbats at DU were flipping out because Sheehan was having trouble with her cell phone outside Pres. Bush's Crawford ranch, while trying to conduct an interview with Thom Hartmann on Air America, reportedly standing in for Air America regular Randi Rhodes - the broadcaster who brought on a Federal review last April 05 for inciting violence against Pres. Bush.

One radio station attempting such incitement + one lone incitable moonbat called Sheehan camped out in close proximity to POTUS, worries me. Her family would be wise to get her home.

Is it unfair and/or irrespo... (Below threshold)
Dan Bernitt:

Is it unfair and/or irresponsible to ask Bush why his daughters are not in the military if this is a just and good war? They are certainly well qualified.

79% of Repubs approve of wh... (Below threshold)
JJ:

79% of Repubs approve of what's going on in Iraq, down from last week's 83%. Still solid support but we remain a nation divided...

This is George Bush's war. He chose it. This is the point Mrs. Sheehan is making.

Should Bush choose to meet with her - and he probably won't - the "movement" created by Mrs. Sheehan's vigil will diminish.

It will be interesting to see what the media will do if she moves her political action to DC at the end of the Crawford vacation.

With all due respect to Ms.... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

With all due respect to Ms. Sheehan, she's already met with the President.

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/U.S._war_protest_mom_met_Bush_in_2004

The fact that he sent out aides to talk to her once more, is a sign of compassion. She may not like the answer, and sorry to be so harsh and seemingly cold, but she had her chance last year.

And, no, Ms. Sheehan, Mr. Bush didn't kill your son. Islmaofascists killed your son. Be mad at them. Ask them why they started this. Ask them why they continue they take trucks into neighborhoods and slaughter children.

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/56f7cd8a-f3b7-11d9-af32-00000e2511c8.html

You want justifiable anger, Lefties? There it is. Right in your g**damn face and you can't even see it. Children cut to pieces. What is the matter with you? Who raised you to think that this is right, just or defendable? How can you accept this? How can not see and fight the evil in all this? What IS the matter with your moral compass?

I'm glad I hold my faith in God, because my faith in humanity is being sorely tested by those who profess to care.

I'm done for the week. It's been too long. *sigh*

I don't understand any of t... (Below threshold)
zeppo1:

I don't understand any of this.

"pet troll" "moonbat" "cuckoo lulu"

These are all fun pharses for children.

People are dying in Iraq as we type these pharses.

They are dying.

We don't see it. We don't see the blood or destruction. We see missing teens in Aruba. I just witnessed some man on O'reily s show who was a "reputation expert" speaking about how this mother speaking out is "hurting her, making her look bad". No news form Iraq. Imagine being a soilder there and coming back thinking Iraq would be all over the news and finding hours of coverage on a teacher who had sex with her students.

I honestly do not understand this. People are dying.

It's time to wake up.

Wow, BR. "Cuckoo Lulu?" Wh... (Below threshold)
lulu:

Wow, BR. "Cuckoo Lulu?" What is this, 7th grade? How 'bout next time you say, "Nanner, nanner, nanner?" That's also popular amongst the jr. high kids. Well, no that's probably more of an elementary school thing but I guess that also suits your mentality. Oh, and Moonbat? Wow, that's original. Don't spend much time out of the conservative echo chamber, do you? Although you don't appear to be very intelligent you are, by God, entertaining! Thanks for the laughs!

Peter F. wrote "And, no,... (Below threshold)
not_a_chimpy_fan:

Peter F. wrote "And, no, Ms. Sheehan, Mr. Bush didn't kill your son. Islmaofascists killed your son."

BULLSHIT. Bush decided to take out Saddam and didn't have a plan after the initial onslaught. You'd think these warmongers, with as many years of experience that they have, could have been careful with our soldiers' lives.

Bush is responsible for all of the soldiers' deaths. President Chimpy is (regrettably) the Commander in Chief.

What news do you watch? You... (Below threshold)
darren Benson:

What news do you watch? Your information is all wrong. This is an illegal war. CIA documents were illegaly altered to promote it. And information known AT THE TIME to be false were spoken by BUSH to YOU as true. He lied to you. That's a fact. He is using young men and women to die why they are building PERMANANT bases in Iraq. He doesn't want this war to end. He NEEDS it to continue. Do you not know this? Is that still debatable or something? If so I'd like to hear what yo have to say. I don't know why you are defending Bush. Is it because he says he's a Christian? Is it because he's conservative? Look at the country right now. This is a terrible terrible White House. Is this not clear to you?

"Toby, as I said, "It's com... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"Toby, as I said, "It's coming and you know it.""

Lulu, I would ask whats coming but I'm sure its just more babble against 'The most ethical administration in modern times'. ;-)

1994,1996,1998,2000,2002,2004...and the hits just keep coming.

/ignore=on

Tob

lulu...I usually don't find... (Below threshold)
-S-:

lulu...I usually don't find responding to sarcastic barbs such as yours worthwhile, but calling O'Reilly's broadcast a 'show' is hardly rare, much less not even approaching inaccurate.

I hope that you and your other personalities will be alright and that you don't organize to any extent to make good on any of those harms you write about as to the rest of society.

What is your specific affiliation with Ms. Sheehan? As in, what motivates you to believe you have some sort of relationship/affiliation with this woman? Her suffering? Just curious.

Having now read farther, wh... (Below threshold)
-S-:

Having now read farther, what I conclude is that few among the left on this thread have any other objective other than to harass. No amount of information is ever going to seep through, if it hasn't already.

It's not about information for some here, it's about using a venue and trying to generate disorder. Just look at the nonsense and by whom.

The Clinton W.H. identified and was even closely aware of Atta prior to 09/11 and yet, liberals want to talk about a disturbed woman driven, from the look of things, to mental and emotional chaos and certain Left chaotics all too eager to "help" her stay there.

Hey All!It's GREAT... (Below threshold)
Capt. Turang:

Hey All!

It's GREAT to see so many AMERICANS who support OUR TROOPS!

Now you can REALLY SUPPORT THIS WAR!

Please visit army.com to sign up!

We really need you to stop typing and pitch in!

Capt. Turang
United States Army

"Capt. Turang United States... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"Capt. Turang United States Army"

ROFLMAO

Tob

1994,1996,1998,2000,2002,2004...Read 'em and weep.

"Having now read farther, w... (Below threshold)
zeppo1:

"Having now read farther, what I conclude is that few among the left on this thread have any other objective other than to harass. No amount of information is ever going to seep through, if it hasn't already.

It's not about information for some here, it's about using a venue and trying to generate disorder. Just look at the nonsense and by whom."

Please identify such nonsense.
I am trying to find out two things
A) Why everyone is on this woman who wants to talk to the president, (where all this hate comes from, why you called her "disturbed")
B) Just how she is being used.

Extra points if you can post without mentioning Clinton. Let's try to stick to topic.

Sincerely,
zeppo1

Isn't there a Godwin coroll... (Below threshold)

Isn't there a Godwin corollary for the "chickenhawk" reference? 'Cause the ol' "probability approaches zero" prediction sure does apply these days.

And judging from the unflagging condescension in Lulu's comments, I'm thinkin' "she" is a 13-year-old boy. I guess the kid got banned from the chat rooms for posing as a lonely exotic dancer.

"Fun pharses" ? Is that li... (Below threshold)
BR:

"Fun pharses" ? Is that like jokes in Persian, Zeppo1?

Glad you had a good laugh with me, Cuckoo Lulu.

Every now and then I create a universe I call the music universe - it only lasts for a microsecond - so you were lucky to enter it at just the right moment. It goes like this: an entire universe consisting only of music, nothing else, no solid matter, no time, only music of all kinds, no dichotomies of good or bad... and when someone sings off-key, everybody collapses in spasms of laughter!

On the day we can all laugh together, there'll be peace and lots of good-humored fun.

Hey JcGehee!Thanks... (Below threshold)
Capt. Turang:

Hey JcGehee!

Thanks for being a TRUE AMERICAN and for showing your interest in enlisting in the United States Army!

You will be contacted by a recruiter your e-mail address to set up an appointment in the Coweta County, GA area!

Thanks Again!
Capt. Turang
United States Army

"Capt. Turang United States... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"Capt. Turang United States Army"

Did you get demoted? Weren't you a Lt Colonel the last time you posted?

Tob

1994,1996,1998,2000,2002,2004...and 2006 ain't lookin' good either, Chomsky.

"Fun pharses" ? Is that lik... (Below threshold)
zeppo1:

"Fun pharses" ? Is that like jokes in Persian, Zeppo1?

No, it's more like this...

Imagine being in a place where you don't know if you will be alive five minutes from now. A place where your best friend just got his head blown off, and you have no new shirt, so you wear his blood for the next week. Imagine the smell of the dead bodies after the most recent car bomb. Imagine trying to give "democracy" to a people you can't wait for you to leave, so they can install the most repressive goverment possible.

Hope I didn't have any typos.
zeppo1

Zeppo1, if you can't lighte... (Below threshold)
BR:

Zeppo1, if you can't lighten up, I'll have to say, "My universe is prettier than your universe, naa naa ne naa na..." :)

RE: Dan Bernitt's postt (Au... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

RE: Dan Bernitt's postt (August 12, 2005 08:00 PM)

Is it unfair and/or irresponsible to ask Bush why his daughters are not in the military if this is a just and good war? They are certainly well qualified.


Chelsea Victoria Clinton - born February 27, 1980 (Little Rock, Arkansas); "First Daughter" 1992-2000; enlistment-capable date 2/27/1998;

Clinton Administration Bosnian War - Dayton Accords NATO peace enforcement mission and Dayton Peace Accords on Bosnia: December 14, 1995

American troops are still stationed in Bosnia.


Number of military duty days served by Ms. Clinton: 0

Number of times requested by Liberals that Ms. Clinton enlist to fulfill military duties under the guise of "prevention of a wider war": 0

Number of times requested by Bill and Hillary Clinton that Ms. Clinton enlist to fulfill military duties... ever: 0?

Number of times requested by Liberals that Ms. Clinton enlist to fulfill military duties... ever: Still 0?


Are you, Mr. Bernitt, "unfair and/or irresponsible" regarding the Clinton Administration's conflicts and the insistence of familial participation in them? Were you? Or are you blowing smoke?

"Imagine being ..."<p... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"Imagine being ..."

Okay Zepplin, I imagine it? So? Do you have a plan? An answer? An idea? Lets hear them.

You just can't beat something with nothing, and your holding a busted flush.

Tob

1994,1996,1998,2000,2002,2004...and Condi2008, that has a nice ring to it doesn't it Chomsky?

Hey 1of12. Its an invasion... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Hey 1of12. Its an invasion of featherweight trolls toniht. I think they should call for reinforcements. Maybe JoeMama is available.

Tob

Nixon08
Death is no excuse!

Rumsfeld/Cheney 2008 :)... (Below threshold)
BR:

Rumsfeld/Cheney 2008 :)

Ford08Tanned, rested... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Ford08
Tanned, rested, and ready for that 2nd term!

Tob

"Zeppo1, if you can't light... (Below threshold)
zeppo1:

"Zeppo1, if you can't lighten up, I'll have to say, "My universe is prettier than your universe, naa naa ne naa na..." :)"

Sorry BR, can't do it.

See, recently, to me it's not about calling people silly names or saying "well but YOU guys did this". It's not a football game and it stopped being amusing a long time ago.

Mostly EVERYONE has disconnected themselves from reality, and the simple plain reality is that a lot of people are dying.

Dying. Dead. No more. Real. Not Billy O'Reilly nattering about something or some silly ass commerical about a judge. But our fellow citizens are dying. Really. Nobody disputes almost 2000 Americans (and god only knows how many Iraqi)have died.

And

For

What?

Your really getting off on ... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Your really getting off on those death images aren't you Z? Got that piddly all stirred up.

Come up with any ideas yet?

Busted flush, I'm tellin' ya.

Tob

1994,1996,1998,2000,2002,2004...Demographics and economics are aggin' ya boy.

Hee hee, Toby - we should a... (Below threshold)
BR:

Hee hee, Toby - we should ask Paul to make a provocative cameo appearance here - then we'll soon see his fan club of Pavlovian doggies.

"Come up with any ideas yet... (Below threshold)
zeppo1:

"Come up with any ideas yet?

Busted flush, I'm tellin' ya.

Tob"


Tob,
I always feel a little weird at the question of "what now"?

It reminds me of a friend asking me if he should go and murder someone (who for the sake of metaphor, has WMD and links to Al Queda), me advising him what a bad idea that would be, him commiting the murder anyway, getting in all kinds of trouble and then coming back to me to ask

"any Ideas"?

I have no ideas - except for us to get out as quickly as possible.

I have no idea what "busted flush" is.

"Dying. Dead. No more."... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"Dying. Dead. No more."

Zep, you must be an unbeliever. We don't take kindly to no godless commies round here, boy.

Tob

Yeah BR, I read that email from the grammatically- challenged fellow. This thread's pretty good. Loads of laughs just pottin' varmints when they pop up from their holes. It passes the time anyway. ;-)

"I have no ideas..." zeppo1... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"I have no ideas..." zeppo1 at August 12, 2005 11:18 PM

Google will preserve that admission for all eternity. ;-)

A busted flush is what you got. Nothing. Google for it. You're just a handful of want and mouthful of gimme. Nobody has ever been convinced by someone with nothing. And you can't MauMau me or my kind. We've been guilted by the best and I'm still just happy to be alive, unlike an ever-increasing number of jihadies. ;-)

Tob

"Zep, you must be an unbeli... (Below threshold)
zeppo1:

"Zep, you must be an unbeliever. We don't take kindly to no godless commies round here, boy."

Funny.

I wonder if you do truly believe in this war, or if it's more of an entertainment to you - posting on blogs spouting outdating phrases. I wonder if you did think we should really be there, if Iraq was a real threat, why you would not go yourself?

I think if the American people actually beleived their country was ever in danger, recruitment levels would be through the roof.

You are absoultely right. It's a question of belief.

Weak. Like I said, I've be... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Weak. Like I said, I've been MauMau'ed by the best.

Tob

Outdating (sic) are my speciality.

oops.Outdating(sic... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

oops.

Outdating(sic) phrases are my speciality.

Tob

"I have no ideas..." zeppo1... (Below threshold)
zeppo1:

"I have no ideas..." zeppo1 at August 12, 2005 11:18 PM

Google will preserve that admission for all eternity. ;-)

A busted flush is what you got. Nothing. Google for it. You're just a handful of want and mouthful of gimme. Nobody has ever been convinced by someone with nothing. And you can't MauMau me or my kind. We've been guilted by the best and I'm still just happy to be alive, unlike an ever-increasing number of jihadies. ;-)

Tob

Once again a great bunch of phrases that would make for really cool bumper stickers.

I'm not trying to guilt anyone. I'm very happy that you're happy to be alive. I'm just trying to get across the point that this is real, not a bunch of silly bastards calling each other names on the internet. That people just like me and you are dying for this, and when people are confronted with the reality, when we strip away all the bullshit, they are dying for no reason.

Please don't let anyone label you or tell you what to think. Don't reduce your brain to sloganeering. Think for yourself. For yourself, your own thoughts, not some labels the media foists upon us.

Then we can talk.

Tob,Just curious. ... (Below threshold)
zeppo1:

Tob,

Just curious. If you do beleive (and it seems you do passionatley), then why are you not there?

I know this will be taken as smart-assy, but I do really want to know.

"I'm just trying to get acr... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"I'm just trying to get across the point that this is real"

Only a child could make such a condescending statement as that. Just like my youngest saying, "You just don't understand!" I've got blood enough, thank you very much, to be guilty about, so the reality of this world has not escaped me. If I had a dollar for every troll that exhorted me to free my mind I'd never have to work again. Like I said, weak.

Come back when you got hair down thar.

Tob

Toby, I know - this thread ... (Below threshold)
BR:

Toby, I know - this thread has given me more laughs than I've had in days! But damn, I don't enjoy stepping on ants - no crunch. I'm impatient for the big game hunting - guess there'll be a weekend lull before the next level of developments in the 9/11-Commission-suppressed-Able Danger-intell matter. (I've been reading over at MacsMind - interesting posts and knowledgeable commenters there both on the Plame affair and 9/11 matter.)

Lights out. Slap you aroun... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Lights out. Slap you around tommorrow if you want.

Tob out.

Um...yeah.Then may... (Below threshold)
zeppo1:

Um...yeah.

Then maybye you can answer:

"Tob,

Just curious. If you do beleive (and it seems you do passionatley), then why are you not there?

I know this will be taken as smart-assy, but I do really want to know."

..or you can go back to your self-delusions that you're slapping someone around.

But it is really cute you have so many of these great slogans like "Come back when you got hair down thar" It's like a funny Jeff Foxworthy.

Meanwhile, I'm still open to talk about reality

Um...yeah.Then may... (Below threshold)
zeppo1:

Um...yeah.

Then maybye you can answer:

"Tob,

Just curious. If you do beleive (and it seems you do passionatley), then why are you not there?

I know this will be taken as smart-assy, but I do really want to know."

..or you can go back to your self-delusions that you're slapping someone around.

But it is really cute you have so many of these great slogans like "Come back when you got hair down thar" It's like a funny Jeff Foxworthy.

Meanwhile, I'm still open to talk about reality

Hm, synchronicity! We both... (Below threshold)
BR:

Hm, synchronicity! We both posted at 11:51 PM :)

Telepathic too - I was just thinking about the Mau Mau in Kenya when Zeppo1 was describing all that blood, death and destruction, then you used the phrase. I don't know what connotation it has for you, but for me it was the thing the grownups discussed behind closed doors when I was a little girl growing up in Africa. I gathered there were some horrible atrocities committed there, and wondered if Zeppo1 is stuck in some such incident in his distant past.

RE: Toby928 post (August 12... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

RE: Toby928 post (August 12, 2005 11:03 PM)

Sorry about the delay, 8-of-378879. I had to check the rolls to see if we may still collaborate. Turns out you've progressed nicely and the end-zone seats for the upcoming season are looking doable. No doubt the 50-yd line primos will come in short order, Rove be praised!

I've found it reckless to conjure the unmentionables since they have this uncanny ability to arise from the ashes given the slightest invocation and choice psalm. fatman passed this wisdom to me and I pass it on to you, McChimpybushiltenron be praised!

RE: Toby928's post (August ... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

RE: Toby928's post (August 12, 2005 11:28 PM)

"a handful of want and mouthful of gimme"

Now that one's a keeper.

""a handful of want and mou... (Below threshold)
zeppo1:

""a handful of want and mouthful of gimme"

Now that one's a keeper."

"...at least 34 National Guard and Reserve troops were killed in the first 10 days of August, according to Pentagon figures, making it one of the worst periods of casualties for part-time troops since the war began more than two years ago. "

Now that's a keeper.

Still open to talking about reality. Now back to all the cute bumper stickers....

-S-,I'm going to b... (Below threshold)
snowballs:

-S-,

I'm going to bookmark this thread ( http://wizbangblog.com/archives/006730.php ) and put it in the keepers category. While I'll admit that sometimes I don't read your entire comment, because you can type faster than I can read - this collection from you is the most succinct, well stated and from-the-gut words that I have ever read regarding the price that we all pay. I'm disappointed that you watched O'Reilly but I'll give you a pass on that one.

lulu,

No shit we're frightened - you don't seem to be too frightened to say "you're just scared" in order to mark everyone else as ignorant...

...and, "so you don't look like a total DoucheTard" does, in fact, come off as very in-the-8th-gradish. Otherwise, very nice posts on your part minus the insults to strangers on the Internet who will quietly dismiss them anyway. This is a very, very difficult war topic that gets into some deep feelings. I can feel the emotion, and understand the 'position' that people take on a political level. I don't own any stickers stating that I'm "supporting the troops" on my SUV as many would claim, but I know - I know that what others have done, do now, and continue to do for me - can't be put into words.

I'd buy all of them a beer if I could, but there's probably not enough beer, enough thanks, enough anything - ?

lulu, I wish you continued success in a tough argument - very, very tough for both sides now.

I wrote a letter last September to one of the Mothers from the group 'Military Families Speak Out' ( http://www.mfso.org ), who had given everyone a piece of her mind at a press conference. My comments were short and sweet, hopefully non-abrasive and in a condensed message - thankful. I hope that they actually read it - because I meant it.

I also hope that they realize that America doesn't really mobilize it's 'production' for war anymore. As a citizen, a person commenting on a blog, minimally, I can only just mobilize the appreciation for the sacrifices that have been made - for me.


God bless our fallen.

people who feel they can be... (Below threshold)
r:

people who feel they can be supportive of the troops while simultaneously oppose the war really irritate me. some are on the right, however most (85% imo) are on the left.

Wow, I go to see a movie an... (Below threshold)
lulu:

Wow, I go to see a movie and look what hilarity awaits! BR, would you like to share some of whatever it is you're smoking? No, JcGehee, I am not a 13 year old boy. But if that's the kind of fantasy you enjoy, hey, knock yourself out. Toby, what is coming is the investigation comes to a close in October. Surely I don't have to tell you what investigation? Try and keep up. Capt. Turang, if anyone really wants to find out how to support the troops (and they're not of an age to enlist) then visit operationtruth.org for plenty of suggestions. Snowballs, "DoucheTard" is the new "Wingnut." Blogosphere lingo. Yes, I agree this is a tough argument. Thank you for your reasonable, non-hysterical comments.

Clearly Mrs. Sheehan has touched a nerve. It is glaringly apparent that everyone is frustrated (I count myself in that group), some are angry, others are downright hostile. It’s tough because things are not ever black and white. There is always going to be a substantial amount of grey. But this doesn't have as much to do with Cindy Sheehan as it does the rift between conservatives and liberals that existed long before Mrs. Sheehan began her vigil in Crawford a week ago. Will that rift ever be mended? I'm beginning to have my doubts. Although it isn't apparent by my previous posts, I am not a cynical individual. No, far from it. I have made heartfelt attempts in the past to "reach across the aisle" as they say and know that petty bickering doesn't solve a damn thing. I just began to feel like I was pounding nails in the floor with my head because nobody, I mean nobody cared to discuss anything rationally with me. But as soon as I get good and snarky, well HELLS BELLS, everyone responds to that! Why? It makes no sense. Yea, being snarky is fun. It comes easily when one is frustrated. But certainly, it solves nothing. This volley of “I know how to be more sarcastic and condescending than you” is simply the human equivalent of flinging poo. It can be entertaining, but right now, it’s wearing thin and has lost it’s considerable power to charm me. I’d enjoy nothing more than sitting down with a group of individuals with whom I disagree on the issue of the war in Iraq and the incompetence (or success) of this administration and actually discuss it in a rational, civilized manner. Good conversation can be as stimulating as a Red Bull/Espresso cocktail – and keep you awake like one too. I’ve said this very thing to conservatives on other sites and been completely dismissed. Okay, so maybe these boards are merely convenient places to vent. Perhaps that is their sole raison d’être. But (and this is where I’m going to sound incredibly optimistic – even pollyanna) I’d like to think it could be a forum in which people on both sides of an issue could connect with one another and try to come to some understanding. Find some common ground. But that kind of thinking, I’m told is incredibly naïve. Well, fine. If that’s naïve then we might as well accept that one day – not next year, maybe not in our grandchildren’s lifetime, but one day – the United States of America will be a blip in history; just another failed society. That is where we are headed. None of us wants that and yet are any of us willing to do the work it would require to prevent that from happening? In the dealings I’ve had with conservatives thus far, the answer is no because they are not willing to compromise. See, Dems ARE willing to and that’s been their downfall (one of many) from their inception. (BTW, I’m not a Democrat. I am not affiliated with any particular party.) There’s an old story about it that goes, if you tell a Republican he’s wrong he’ll say, “No, I’m not, YOU are!” with complete conviction – end of conversation. If you tell a Democrat he’s wrong he’ll say, “No I’m not but tell me why you think so and we’ll discuss it. And then he proceeds to agree with the Republican with a, “I see your point.” And that is considered a weak position. Compromise is weak? Well if that’s the case, let’s turn out the lights now and haul it all in because that is the only way out of this quagmire. And I’m not talking about the quagmire in Iraq. I’m talking about he quagmire right here at home. It’s frustrating, disheartening and depressing. There was a time in the history of our nation that we weren’t so polarized. When the two sides, although not always in agreement, could agree to disagree without hate-speech. Can’t we all stop and ask ourselves, when did we begin vilifying anyone who disagreed with our opinions and when did it become okay? Whatever DID happen to civility? When did we begin to accept that flinging poo was justifiable and an acceptable mode of behavior? And more importantly, why? Was it really our own thought processes that brought us here or have we been unwittingly pitted one citizen against another purely to suit the purposes of a political game? We have to stop letting politicians use marketing techniques to brainwash U.S. citizens into hating one another simply because it gets them what they want in the short term. We are doomed if we buy into their little seeds of hate full of wild accusations that pit right against left, conservative against liberal, old against young and even men against women. As a society, we must begin thinking for ourselves. We must stay informed and make certain that our education as human beings is a lifelong pursuit. Good God, we have to study and understand history - ours and other nations as well. There is too much at stake, in the long run, if we let politicians tell us, not only what to believe, but how we believe. While they are thinking only in terms of the next election, We the People must think in terms of a future for which we may not be present, but in which future U.S. citizens will thrive.

I’ve come clean and made myself vulnerable to attack. So go ahead. Knock yourself out. I'm all prepared to hear, "What a pretty speech." Etc., etc. Let the poo fly. Or not.

RE: zeppo1's post, casualty... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

RE: zeppo1's post, casualty count, sloganeering, and reality (August 13, 2005 12:38 AM)

Still open to talking about reality. Now back to all the cute bumper stickers...


A turn of a phrase can be a powerful thing, and I appreciate powerful things trite as they may superficially appear. Spoken in the proper venue, they can motivate superhuman effort. While not quite Churchillian, I found the phrase socially insightful and one applicable to other debates. I did not attribute the phrase to you, but since you've apparently adopted it, it must have struck home. That's unfortunate that you've assumed the implication and confirmed that it may be true.

Now about that "reality" thing, what is your specific concern? I lost track of where you wanted to debate part way through the thread, and don't know which reality concerns you at the moment.

You mention the patriots and fallen heroes. Now what, specifically, is your point? From your zeppo1 post (August 13, 2005 12:01 AM), you pose and subsequently repeat the following:

"Just curious. If you do beleive (and it seems you do passionatley), then why are you not there [in Iraq? - ed]?

"I know this will be taken as smart-assy, but I do really want to know.


Taken in context of your appended casualty count to my "bumper sticker" redux, I gather you are presenting, once again, the "chickenhawk" meme.

Please see I'd rather be a chickenhawk than a chickensh*t and Moonbat Democrats Against the War for starters.

I take it that if my correlation between your posts to this point are accurate, then you are wearing a pink t-shirt, marching/standing on a sandy street near Falluja, and posting from your laptop. That would be a fair assumption, right?

This:"This volley ... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

This:

"This volley of “I know how to be more sarcastic and condescending than you” is simply the human equivalent of flinging poo. It can be entertaining, but right now, it’s wearing thin and has lost it’s considerable power to charm me."

is hard to reconcile with entering a thread thus:

"It's amazing and pretty darned amusing how frightened conservatives are of this former Catholic Youth Minister and Mom, Cindy Sheehan. All the press she is generating has got you folks pretty freaked out, from the looks of the previous posts. Now THAT"S entertainment! So just stay freaked out and yell really loud because it just means more press about this. And by the way, it's a tad early to be declaring any kind of victory for Rove since the Federal Grand Jury investigation isn't over until October. Yes, Bushbots, you SHOULD be scared. Your house of cards is crumbling, one cowardly criminal at a time."

Unlike Zepp01, who walked into a bar to ask directions to the all-night pharmacy and found himself in a barfight already in progess, you came in spoiling. Take you faux civility elsewhere. I'm not buying.

Tob

"Tob,Just curious.... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"Tob,

Just curious. If you do beleive (and it seems you do passionatley), then why are you not there?

I know this will be taken as smart-assy, but I do really want to know."

I did indeed disregard your question because:
A) Its none of your business.
B) It just seemed like noise which I generally ignore. ie the chickenhawk gambit, the last desperate move of the AW who's losing the argument.
C) It violates my own rule against imparting identifying and personal info on the internet.

Being more rested and sober this morning and perceiving the opportunity for more amusement at your expense, I have reconsidered. And so,

Perhaps, if you considered your own observation that I use Outdating(sic) Phrases you could have inferred that

I'm now too old for combat and the REMF's in the service, in their infinite wisdom, have determined that, because of a minor blood disorder (that won't get you medicaled from active but apparently does prevent you from entering/reenter active service) I'm not even suitable for support tasks. Trust me, I checked.

There you go, lackwit. Make of it what you will.

Tob

I like my anonymity on the web.

Hey Cuckoo Lulu,Do... (Below threshold)

Hey Cuckoo Lulu,

Do you run a meth factory or something?

Now about that "reality"... (Below threshold)
zeppo1:

Now about that "reality" thing, what is your specific concern? I lost track of where you wanted to debate part way through the thread, and don't know which reality concerns you at the moment.

The only reality that concerns me is almost 2000 troops dead, plus untold Iraq civillians- all having asoultley nothing to do with the security of the nation.

I scanned through your chickenhawk/chickshit post, and it still seems that people are equating this to a sporting event. I'm just saying that this is far more serious than I think most imagine.

And Tob, if that really is the truth and you physically can't go than I would really respect your descision to fight for something you beleive in.

My problem here is I just wish our goverment would spend a quater of the money that it spends on Iraq into catching Osma Bin Laden.

But really, let's try to put all the bullshit (liberal, conservative, moonbat, etc.) aside for one day and really think why our country is there, and why people are critizing the mother of a son who was killed. So I ask again:

Who exactly is using her?
Why are people attacking her?
Isn't it time we brought the troops home and concentrated on finding those responible for 9/11, instead of invading a country that had nothing to do with it?

All is ask is one day where people talk about the reality of war, instead of talking about themselves with clever cute little name-calling,

"The only reality that conc... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"The only reality that concerns me is almost 2000 troops dead, plus untold Iraq civillians- all having asoultley nothing to do with the security of the nation."

In your opinion. That the point or contention. Its rather not manifest that OIF has nothing to do with security. In my case, I'm an American Hegemonist. I am NOT the world. I love by proximity. I love and care for my God, my family, my country, the western tradition and so on in ever decreasing intensity. If it was up to me, OIF would have either been fought like Afganistan (light and fast using indigineous forces and an exile governent) or I would have just burned the place to the ground and said, that's what you get for F'ing with us. In this one case, I am willing to allow the administration to engage in nation-building. Its part of the overall strategy in the GWOT. I disagree but its not my call. I only hope that the powers-that-be can pull it off and be proved correct. If not, I guess its back to the Nixon/Carter/Bush41/Clinton real-politic (and in the case of Carter, just plain addled policies) that got us into this mess in the first place.

Tob

"And Tob, if that really is the truth and you physically can't go than I would really respect your descision to fight for something you beleive in."

I think I could phsyically go but others disagree.

"Who exactly is using her?<... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"Who exactly is using her?
Why are people attacking her?
Isn't it time we brought the troops home and concentrated on finding those responible for 9/11,"

Actually, these questions are a hoot. Let me try:
Who exactly is using her? the enemy
Why are people attacking her? because they don't fear us enough. Other than that I don't care why.
Isn't it time we brought the troops home and concentrated on finding those responible for 9/11? Huh? Is OBL in Toledo?

Tob


Isn't it now "the struggle ... (Below threshold)
zeopo1:

Isn't it now "the struggle against extermism" instead of the the "Global War On Terrorisim".

Tob,
Is it a point of contention that Iraq had no designs on attacking The US? I'm just trying to figure out why we really are there, if this in fact has to do with National Security. Iraq was a mess, but who are we to correct this at this moment when those responisble for attacking our country still linger.

I'm just still trying what Iraq has to do with all this....and why people are attacking this dead soilder's mother.

BR, interesting about the M... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

BR, interesting about the Mau Mau. I use the term as we used it here back in the 60's and it is directly related to the events in Africa. To MauMau someone is to extort and strong-arm someone by the threat of atrocities to come if you don't buckle. ie 'The Fire next Time' sort of thing. It rather evolved to meaning threatening someone when, in fact, you lacked the power to actually do the bad things. ie there are no Mau Mau's here. ref: 'Radical Chic and Mau-Mauing the Flak Catchers" by Tom Wolfe.

Actually, these question... (Below threshold)
zeppo1:

Actually, these questions are a hoot. Let me try:
Who exactly is using her? the enemy

See this is what I don't really get. What enemy are you referring to?

Why are people attacking her? because they don't fear us enough. Other than that I don't care why.

This I don't get at all! Fear who?


Isn't it time we brought the troops home and concentrated on finding those responible for 9/11? Huh? Is OBL in Toledo?

You mean Osama Bin Laden? Please explain.


"Is it a point of contentio... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"Is it a point of contention that Iraq had no designs on attacking The US? I'm just trying to figure out why we really are there, if this in fact has to do with National Security. Iraq was a mess, but who are we to correct this at this moment when those responisble for attacking our country still linger."

Zep, yep, it is. As I said, (and you could search on my handle for many more full explanations of my thoughts) I disagree with the strategy but lack the full info (and power) to do more. You should stop viewing strategy in such a one-dimensional and, to be frank, provincial worldview. The first rule of the Hobbsian jungle that is international relations is: Reward your friends and punish your enemies. Make no mistake, Saddam was an enemy. The ME understands this and respects the 'strong horse'. I think that they are mostly baffled by our attempts to 'do good'.

Tob

I disagree with the str... (Below threshold)
zeppo1:

I disagree with the strategy but lack the full info (and power) to do more

I don't think you lack either the info (Iraq having nothing to do with 9/11) nor the power to do more with regard to the strategy (we all had to power to vote Bush out)

I don't think Saddam was as much as an enemy as we were lead to believe. I still beleive the real enemy is still free, and I think by invading Iraq we have made many more terrorists.

"Who exactly is using her? ... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"Who exactly is using her? the enemy

See this is what I don't really get.
[...] Please explain."

Arg! Are you being deliberately dense? We were attacked on 9/11 by units of a stateless lawless totalitarian group. How do you fight them? Remove their sancturies and dry up their state and pivate financial support. How do you do that? Make the states and people that support them pay. (for gravy, offer them a better way, hence the nation-building in Iraq).

Tob

Actually, to let you know w... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Actually, to let you know what a 'war-mongerer' I am, I would have reccommended creating somekind of incident that would have allowed us to hit Syria once the 4ID arrived in Iraq. I think that our current problems in Iraq would have been much diminished.

Tob

And you might be thinking, ... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

And you might be thinking, "That sound like Real-politic to me and I thought you said that you didn't support Real-politic."

And you would be somewhat correct. My argument with the Kissinger/Scowcroft version of Real-politic is that it was done on the cheap. Support this ass-hat dictator because any other solution was too costly in blood and treasure. I think that a little pain and an actual application of our liberal western views some decades ago would have prevented the current situation. But hey, whatcha gonna do.

Tob

The other problem with Real... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

The other problem with Real-politic is that once you start to ride the tiger, there is no good way to get off. Witness, the Shah of Iran. He was a SOB but he was our SOB and an ally against the then greater threat of Soviet expansionism. We let him get deposed and ended up with an Islamic republic, which lead to us sort of supporting Saddam against Iran, which lead to him invading Kuwait which lead to us having to station troops in the Holy Land of Saudi Arabia which lead to OBL.

I wish that we had plowed the ground for democratic reforms earlier there. I don't like the way we have consistantly 'kicked the can down the road' since the end of WWII.

Tob

But enough about me. I've ... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

But enough about me. I've got work to do and will check back later.

Tob

RE: zeppo1's post (August 1... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

RE: zeppo1's post (August 13, 2005 12:24 PM)

The only reality that concerns me is almost 2000 troops dead, plus untold Iraq civillians- all having asoultley nothing to do with the security of the nation.

I disagree with that sentiment. Iraq did and does have to do with the security of this nation. My concern is of the American lives lost on 9/11, the innumerable assaults to our sovereignty and subsequent deaths preceding 9/11, the agitated rats (with apologies to rats everywhere) scurrying about the globe and carrying the pestilence of Islamofascism, and the nexus of the war and its tentacles protruding from the old Baathist stomping grounds. Iraq has everything to do with our national security right now. The soldiers bottling up that hornets' nest are performing vital tasks to defend my life, my country, and my beliefs. Thankfully such amazing individuals believe that mission too and place themselves in harm's way so that this country will prosper. I'll never yield this position just as those grunts won't yield theirs. I won't even touch on the humanitarian effort this country pours into that one to facilitate the expansion of freer peoples. It's a gesture that is truly American despite its concomitant benefit to our own self-interest. Fortunately, most Iraqis recognize this and will become allies should the terrorist scourge be purged.


...I'm just saying that this is far more serious than I think most imagine.

I think everyone at this site is keenly aware of the circumstances at hand. No one perceives this to be some sort of sport and the vitriol, as you might interpret it to be, is the passionate defense of an equally passionate belief that the stakes are real, high, and quite deadly. I believe a unified front to back the troops with their mission provides for this country the best opportunity for quick and final victory and the minimizing of deaths on the field and at its fringes. Anything that delays that process is damnable to me.


My problem here is I just wish our goverment would spend a quater of the money that it spends on Iraq into catching Osma Bin Laden.

In a world of finite resources and infinite political positioning, logistics of cash flow will always be dynamic and problematic. Because we try to fight a legal and controlled war, we sometimes hamstring ourselves to our detriment. I'd wager that the Left is more inclined to erect barricades in these battlefield endeavors than the Right, but I paint with a broad brush here. Because our military is passionate and disciplined, we won't advocate scorched-earch tactics, though we certainly have such capabilities. Because we respect law, we don't intercede in foreign lands without well defined objectives and the participation of other governments. Subsequently, invading sovereign lands to snatch Bin Laden is not some trivial exercise.


Who exactly is using her?

At a minimum, poltical opportunists suffering from BDS.


Why are people attacking her?

I'd recommend reading more contemporaneous posts on this site to get more elaboration; but, briefly, she appears to be grandstanding, denigrating the mission of her son who actively sought the duty, and endangering other soldiers still in the field who must fight an enemy emboldened by her politics... an enemy that cannot win militarily but that can win politically if the likes of Mrs. Sheehan are successful in their undermining of the defense of this country. Vietnam should have been quite instructional in this regard and hardly out of our conscience. It's a tragedy that such contrived parallels seem to be a self-fulfilling prophecy facilitated by short-term ideologues and mixed subversives. Are there legitimate concerns? Of course, but the alliances with whom Mrs. Sheehan has bonded are not politically disinterested parties seeking only the health and welfare of distant warriors and representatives of our culture. I question these groups' motives and trust 'em as far as I can throw 'em.


Isn't it time we brought the troops home and concentrated on finding those responible for 9/11, instead of invading a country that had nothing to do with it?

No, it isn't time. We are searching for those responsible for 9/11. And Iraq is directly and tangentially related to terrorism. The fact that there have been no catastrophic attacks on American soil should imply, if not actually serve as, a testament that the action in Iraq is successful, justified, and warranted despite imperfect timelines. No war lacks them and this one won't be the exception. I fear our expectations have become so elevated that we demand "clean" wars paralleling the results of the Gulf War. That is an unreasonable expectation. When stability is established, the American mission may drift, but not a moment prior. I figure the soldiers and their leaders know this and I accept the premise. I also support it.

Well said AnonymousD. Bett... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Well said AnonymousD. Better than my explanation anyway. Its depressing that people insist on asking the same questions of us over and over. They are like people, late to a conversation, who insist that we fill them in on everything we have said heretofore. And when we are pissy they say "We just want to understand your point of view" Let them Google and prepare themselves I say. Thats why we use handles that are unique.

Tob

Plus, its cool when someone... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Plus, its cool when someone referrences something you said last year in their argument, either for or against you. Its definitely a sign of respect that they made the effort not to treat you as a total stranger when they want to argue and force you to define all terms, yet again.

Tob

Zeppo, I have to apologize ... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Zeppo, I have to apologize for calling you dense earlier. I somehow got the impression that the 'her' you were talking about in your questions was our country when now I see that you meant Cindy Sheehan.

Sheesh, I guess that I'm the dense one. ;-)

Tob

Damn, and now Google will i... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Damn, and now Google will immortalize this:

"... I'm the dense one. ..."
Toby928 at August 13, 2005 02:08 PM

Tob

But I still stand by my "Hu... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

But I still stand by my "Huh? Is OBL in Toledo?"

How does bringing the troops back to the US help capture the perps from 9/11?

Tob

Tob,I cut some sla... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

Tob,

I cut some slack if it is a worthwhile topic. I usually try to include as much as is absolutely relevant material to get my point across even if it's redundant. Of, course, brevity sometimes is the order of the day. My typing skills aren't conducive to waxing eloquent.

One thing I'd like to see improved upon, technically, here is the search engine. To put it bluntly, it stinks. I just don't think the archiving script is run enough to categorize everything... or it is busted. I've found the use of Google or other engine the only way to find stuff in a minimally timely manner just as you have. I promise, however, not to hold the "dense" quip against you should we take opposing positions. Well, that might be too gracious. I promise that I won't bludgeon you with it repeatedly in my introductory, supporting, and concluding sentences. ;)

Of course, I never make a mistake, so don't even bother searching my past posts for them. Really. Just don't even bother. Please don't even bother. Pretty please?

RE: AnonymousDrivel's post ... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

RE: AnonymousDrivel's post (August 13, 2005 01:44 PM)

Oops. Third response - change passionate to compassionate in "...our military is passionate and disciplined...". They are certainly both but compassionate was the adjective I intended.

Remember, Tob, to ignore this correction. Google knows nothing... no-thing.

AD, agreed on the internal ... (Below threshold)
BR:

AD, agreed on the internal wizbang search function being inop. It used to work well during CBSgate, but then Kev did something technical and that search function disappeared. I e-mailed him at the time requesting it back, and he then later added a "Google search within wizbang" function, but it still only seems to get the main posts, and not the contents of the comments. It would be nice if one could reference earlier data more easily for the latecomers who honestly want to know.

PS for lulu - I'm a proud Camel smoker :)

Non-filtered :)... (Below threshold)
BR:

Non-filtered :)

Toby - how interesting abou... (Below threshold)
BR:

Toby - how interesting about the Mau Mau concept eventually evolving into an expression of hollow extortion threats here in the 60s. It was a very real threat in my childhood. (I remember the men in the family watching a black and white documentary that we children were not allowed to see - I peeked in when the door was accidentally left open for a moment, and my mother muttering something about ghastly stuff of men's "toy-toys" being cut off by the Mau Mau; my dad buying his first gun and talking about erecting a steel door within our home, which plans worried my greatly since my bedroom seemed to be outside the perimeter of his steel door plans! And short triangular beards were supposedly the Mau Mau's trademark, so it got quite scary when I noticed my friend, our gardener, started growing such a beard.) The Mau Mau atrocities did not reach our city, but farmers up north and especially in Kenya were victims. Mostly it was black on black.

During my childhood, I wasn't aware of the Vietnam War or the nuclear threat under which you all lived, but Russian and Chinese communist-inspired terrorism was real in Africa.

BR, I wanted to hear more ... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

BR, I wanted to hear more about your life in Africa sometime. That has to be fascinating. Did you see my post about MauMau'ing?

Tob

Wow, ask and you shall rece... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Wow, ask and you shall receive. We are in sync.

Tob

I have never been to Africa... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

I have never been to Africa but I wish to one day. I did date a girl from South Africa once though. She was different and interesting. ;-)

Tob

Wow! :)... (Below threshold)
BR:

Wow! :)

Yes Toby, I expected you to... (Below threshold)
lulu:

Yes Toby, I expected you to dismiss my last post and you did not disappoint. You left out, "Harrumph!" Okay, so dismiss this messenger. I understand. But If you care about the future of America, this division among it’s citizens should matter to you. It should matter to everyone. It is the poison that will lead to the eventual death of a great nation.

Lulu, you came in here like... (Below threshold)
BR:

Lulu, you came in here like a rabid dog, spewing venom. Then all of a sudden you flipped and became Miss Reasonable - but still grossly misrepresenting. Don't lecture us on divisiveness. Go empty your poison pen elsewhere.

"Yes Toby, I expected you t... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"Yes Toby, I expected you to dismiss my last post and you did not disappoint. You left out, "Harrumph!" Okay, so dismiss this messenger. I understand. But If you care about the future of America, this division among it’s citizens should matter to you. It should matter to everyone. It is the poison that will lead to the eventual death of a great nation."

Always happy to oblige. It is indeed easy to dismiss you as a messenger when your message is just more of the same, and I prefer to use Feyh!, with a limp-wristed flip of dismissal, to Harrumph anyway. Divisions come and they go. I've lived long enough to have seen us much more divided than this. Its just that fringers like yourself were dismissed by everyone as the MSM had no incentive to give you a megaphone when a democrat was president. Great nations die slowly. Doubtless, when the current danger has passed, the people will reconsider electing representative from the 'Mommy party'. We survived Carter and Clinton, we'll survive whoever does eventually get elected from the reformed Democratic party.

Tob

1994,1996,1998,2000,2002,2004...Read 'em and weep, Chomsky.

So BR and Tob, you prefe... (Below threshold)
lulu:

So BR and Tob, you prefer divisiveness? So then these types of message boards ARE simply a format in which to vent and nothing more. Seems rather pointless to maintain a pulpit where one simply preaches to the choir. Why sit around and pour so much time and energy into listening to an echo? Yes, BR, I was angry when I got here. For the very reasons that I point out above. Whenever entering a discussion with any civility, I was bashed just as quickly as if I'd entered throwing poo. I proved for myself that it doesn't matter. Every issue is an "us against them" proposition. Neither side is willing to listen to the other. Enjoy your circle jerk. And check out today’s WaPo article, “U.S. Lowers Sights On What Can Be Achieved In Iraq: Administration is Shedding ‘Unreality’ That Dominated Invasion, Official Says.”

"So BR and Tob, you prefer ... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

"So BR and Tob, you prefer divisiveness?"

I don't prefer divisiveness, I've just come to expect it from the so-called tolerant wing of politics.

"Whenever entering a discussion with any civility, I was bashed just as quickly as if I'd entered throwing poo."

Perhaps, we're more perceptive than you thought, or your true nature just can't be hidden.

"Enjoy your circle jerk."

And ad hominem potty-mouth to boot. Also to be expected.

"check out today’s WaPo" everyday babe. And the NYT as well. It's important to keep up with the buzz from the liberal hive-mind to get the current memes of the 'herd of independent thinkers'.

Tob

1994,1996,1998,2000,2002,2004...and 2006 ain't looking too good either, Chomsky.

RE: lulu's post (August 12,... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

RE: lulu's post (August 12, 2005 04:10 PM)

So in an attempt to initiate a positive atmosphere and entice reasonable debate, you introduced yourself into this thread with the following:

It's amazing and pretty darned amusing how frightened conservatives are of this former Catholic Youth Minister and Mom, Cindy Sheehan. All the press she is generating has got you folks pretty freaked out, from the looks of the previous posts. Now THAT"S entertainment! So just stay freaked out and yell really loud because it just means more press about this. And by the way, it's a tad early to be declaring any kind of victory for Rove since the Federal Grand Jury investigation isn't over until October. Yes, Bushbots, you SHOULD be scared. Your house of cards is crumbling, one cowardly criminal at a time. (lulu at August 12, 2005 04:10 PM)

You then adopted the sarcastically worded standard from jim b as truth and appended (by prejudicial convenience?) the anti-Rove meme, wholly irrelevant to the Sheehan topic. Here's jim b again:

Bush is stoked about this Sheehan thing...It has cleaned the slate of his last F-up...Karl Rove, and as far as I can see it was either a mother with one less child, or raising the TERROR ALERT. We are fucked already so.... Bush in '08! (jim b at August 12, 2005 03:09 PM)

Now who exactly is lamenting divisiveness? Are you subsequently complaining that turnabout is not fair play? You did not "...enter[ this] discussion with any civility" so dispense with the fallacy. You want debate, you'll get debate... but you'll get it on the terms you dictate from tenor and tone. Spare the lecture.

What I find fascinating is ... (Below threshold)

What I find fascinating is the cult-like atmosphere that is developing around Cindy Sheehan:

http://angrygwn.mu.nu/archives/111919.php
http://angrygwn.mu.nu/archives/111806.php

Like all cults, she is breaking off her ties with her family:

http://angrygwn.mu.nu/archives/111632.php
http://angrygwn.mu.nu/archives/111900.php
http://angrygwn.mu.nu/archives/111865.php
http://angrygwn.mu.nu/archives/111787.php

Spooky part, she's buying into it:

http://angrygwn.mu.nu/archives/111872.php

Thank you for your reaso... (Below threshold)
snowballs:

Thank you for your reasonable, non-hysterical comments

No, lulu, they were hysterical, but thank you anyway.

I’d like to think it could be a forum in which people on both sides of an issue could connect

Again - Good luck. It's become a political issue...

...sonofabitch I just spilled beer all over m keboard!!~

Why is all the blame being ... (Below threshold)
Courtney:

Why is all the blame being put on the President??
If I remember correctly, Congress UNANIMOUSLY voted to go to war in Iraq. Everybody seems to forget about that part. After September 11th, the whole country was screaming for vengence. Now everybody all of a sudden doesn't want to face the facts that this is exactly what we asked for. Now that our men and women are overseas dying in a foreign land because of a radical religious movement (Islam) wants to destroy everyone who doesn't believe as they do (the rest of us). And dont try to say Islam is a religion of peace. I know for a fact that the Quaran's two largest chapters are 'on fighting' and 'on war'. If that's peace, then I'm Dick Tracey!

Furthermore, Casey Sheehan re-enlisted VOLUNTARILY AFTER the war was already on. Our military is an ALL VOLUNTEER force!! There are legal ways to get out of the militry once you are in; if someone doesn't want to go to war, they can get out of it. Casey Sheehan obviously thought that it was the best choice to go to Iraq, otherwise, he wouldn't have enlisted. The only thing that can be said if he DID re-enlist and didnt want to go to war is that he was a spineless sheep, who followed the rest of his friends into battle. I dont think anybody in our military is spineless - quite the contrary, they're much braver than the average citizen and can withstand greater mental and physical stress. Casey was there because he CHOSE to be there. Tell his momma to shut the fuck up and go home and greive like the rest of us who have lost loved ones in this war. She's disgracing her son, and the rest of our fallen soldiers. She disgraces us all. Love it or leave it.

The URL in which Cindy Shee... (Below threshold)
William Leatherwood:

The URL in which Cindy Sheehan says a former friend doctored an email is at

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cindy-sheehan/camp-casey-day-12_b_5830.html

This specter who is according to her, a “former friend” and just happens to be anti-Israel, is of course never named. I am under the impression that this person is none other than Cindy Sheehan herself. Also if you will notice David Dukes is supporting her all the way. Dukes just wrote an article entitled ” Why Cindy Sheehan is Right” its full of the usual anti-semitic invective that he has perfected over the years. Here are some quotes fron David Dukes article.

David Dukes– ” Recently, she had the courage to state the obvious that her son signed up in the military to protect America not to die for Israel.”

David Dukes–” In truth, Cindy Sheehan is absolutely right. Her son signed up in the military to defend America, not Israel.”

David Dukes wrote in his August 14 article that Cindy Sheehan was right in saying that her son didn’t join the military to protect Israel. Since August 14th Cindy Sheehan says that email to Nightline was “doctored by a former friend”. Why doesnt a reporter just ask Cindy Sheehan who this mystery person is who she calls her former friend and who framed her? Also why would anyone need to frame Cindy Sheehan with anti-semitic remarks when she freely does a great job at that all on her own?




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