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"Illegals Dropping Like Flies In The Desert" -- another opinion

A lot of people are taking Rob to task for his piece where he failed to show proper compassion for a spike in deaths of illegal aliens in the Southwest deserts.

Let me see if I've got this right: these people are not citizens, not legal guests of this country, are breaking the laws of this country in entering, and in fact are doing everything they can to avoid the notice of the federal government. But somehow it's the government's fault when they walk around in a desert without proper preparation and equipment?

Maybe someone sabotaged my copy of the Constitution, but I can't find a mention anywhere how the government is obligated to leave these people alone and allow them to enter this country freely, turning a blind eye to them until -- and not an instant before -- they are in dire distress.

Further, if they've succeeded in their goals, the government has absolutely no knowledge of their very existence, let alone their precise location and whether or not they are in trouble.

There's an old aphorism that "the Constitution is not a suicide pact." Nor is it a guarantee that if you do something not only illegal, but mind-bendingly, suicidally stupid, that the government will move heaven and earth to save you from your own dumbness.

One of Rob's detractors compared these people's plight to those who suffered from the tsunami last December. That was a very, VERY poor comparison. Those people lived in a place that suffers such a fate perhaps once every couple of centuries -- that's a good four or five lifespans there. The illegal aliens are choosing to set themselves outside of official notification as they do something incredibly dangerous, in knowing violation of our laws. If that means that they may end up dying, they knew that going in.

The laws of Nature are much harsher than the laws of Man. In Nature, doing something stupid is often a capital offense. And Nature doesn't have much of an appeal process.


Comments (30)

One side is arguing that th... (Below threshold)
Mars:

One side is arguing that the wrong in this matter was committed when illegal immigrants ignored the laws of the U.S. by sneakily crossing the border to seek employment.

The other side is arguing that the wrong in the matter lies in placing the laws which are meant to keep illegal immigrants out above a humanistic interest in the preservation of thier lives, despite thier infractions.

My opinion is that there are laws that perhaps should be placed above an interest in the preservation of human life, like those against murder or rape. However, a border trespass does not seem to be such a major infraction that we should let our laws dictate our morality on the issue.

It sounds as if some of us are upset that they should have the gaul to break our immigration laws and die on our soil.

The laws of nature are much harsher than the laws of men. However, what helps make us human is that we can see that difference and we can create our own laws so that the lives of men needn't be so harsh.

Mars, it's also a matter of... (Below threshold)
Jay Tea:

Mars, it's also a matter of pragmatism. They are doing everything they can to avoid official notice. Unfortunately, that means the "save your ass from your own stupidity" sort of notice, as well as the "send you back where you belong" sort of notice. There's no way one can seek just the former, while evading the latter.

It's a tradeoff, and they need to accept that.

And so do we.

J.

These people are not stupid... (Below threshold)
Mars:

These people are not stupid. They are desperate. They know full well what the risk is of crossing a desert on foot and they do it anyway. The chance of freedom in the U.S. is worth the risk to people who have no possibility of enjoying those freedoms where they live.

To reduce this matter to pragmatic reasoning is callous, uncaring, and inhuman, and some might argue immoral, since it isolates and ignores the fact that it is peoples' lives we are talking about.

Yes, they made a choice to try and cross the desert and it is up to anyone to decide for themselves if Latin America is "where they belong", but in the end we are still deciding to let people die when we can do something to prevent that. We can make as many reasons as we want, but that is what we are doing.

What exactly can we do to p... (Below threshold)

What exactly can we do to prevent it?

Jay,You nailed it, m... (Below threshold)
Eneils Bailey:

Jay,
You nailed it, maybe Mars could go down to the border, set up a welcome station, complete with refreshments and medical care, and the offer his spare bedroom for then night. There is no way I am going to feel like a callous human being because criminal illegal aliens are expiring in an extreme environment. Regretably sad, but unforunately a result of thier(not my) actions.

We can only control behavio... (Below threshold)

We can only control behavior of people through laws. We have a law making it illegal for the illegals to enter the US. They break that law and sometimes die. Writing another law won't help. We can't rescind that law or any other just because it's being broken. In no time at all we'd have no laws left. They choose to take the risk, until they stop taking the risk some are going to die, it's that simple.

We can stop it. We can cl... (Below threshold)
Lew Clark:

We can stop it. We can close the border. If they don't come across, they don't die in the desert or locked in a truck with temperatures above 130 degrees. There may be a few incidents of people getting shot after cutting through the "razor wire" and trying run across the DMZ, but those would be rare.
Of course we could take the UN option and return the occupied territories of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California back to Mexico. Although, technically we'd have to give them back to Spain.

I'll give a darker reason f... (Below threshold)
John:

I'll give a darker reason for the objection. Much of the pro-illegal immigration crowd like it because they can exploit these people. But its hard to take the moral highground saying I like having a cheap gardener or maid that I can also treat like crap because I can hold their illegal status over them.

Rob created a senerio in which they could atleast feign the moral highground for a change.

If we really were so concerned about them, we'd be pressuring Mexico to improve so all Mexicans would benefit. But then the cheap labor market would dry up.

The USA is being invaded by... (Below threshold)
dchamil:

The USA is being invaded by Mexicans. Wars are fought over this sort of thing, and people die in wars. If you have no problem with the corruption, crime and Mexican culture that is taking over California and other states as a result, then you have no problem with the invasion. See the recent book "Invasion" by Michelle Malkin, or Victor Davis Hanson's "Mexifornia".

Here's a similar/parallel "... (Below threshold)
-S-:

Here's a similar/parallel "moral" argument:

. . .


I really, really need a new Corvette.

Without a new Corvette, or any Corvette, life is not worth living, it's just too hard on my family without a Corvette.

I need it so badly that I'll do anything within my power to get one. Anything.

I really, really like the new Corvette that's over the hill and through the woods, a week's trek if I am careful.

There are snakes in the woods, quicksand along what roadways exist and swampy bogs nearly all the way after I leave my backyard, but I'm going to go and get that Corvette, I don't care the dangers.

I mean, I really, really want that one new Corvette, so much I will do anything to get it.

. . .


If the person with so much need for that Corvette walks all day and all night through swamp, rattlesnake infested woods and gets so far as one day from the Corvette and is bitten and expires, is it the fault of the Corvette's owner that the person died?

Or was even there, struggling?

Is the enticement, the fact that someone has something that someone else really, really wants, makes the taking of that thing "right"?

A lot of the "desperation" involved in people from Mexico, especially, is motivated by cultural affirmation that to be heroic, to be "a man," to have courage, is to go get that Corvette...to make that trek North, and to do so despite anyone telling you not to along the way or even after you arrive.

It's a cultural imperative to many that is encouraged and defined by culture, and the defiance of immigration laws is also.

I do not think it is immora... (Below threshold)
-S-:

I do not think it is immoral, morally wrong, for the United States to defend it's borders against all threats, foreign and domestic.

In fact, it's a duty of citizenship to do so.

Whatever million of illegal aliens and continuing to climb in ever increasing numbers present in the country in disregard of our laws represents to many of us Americans an invading force. If not that, then what IS it? Because, the fact is, most of those many millions require, use and continue to rely on funding by the general public while in the country, and multiply the effects of invasion by doing so -- because those effects denigrate the conditions of everyone else (wages, living conditions, healthcare, educational standards, taxes, taxes, taxes and increased depletion of resources along with increased denigration of natural environments...list is extensive and ongoing).

The person who employs illegal aliens gets the lowest possible waged workers and for that benefit to that employer, the taxpayers fund the healthcare, housing, etc. all the rest of the "costs" of that employer's "savings".

Not to mention overall standards of many aspects of American lifestyles that have been so negatively impacted by the huge numbers of illegal aliens in the country.

Legal immigration at least provides basic health screenings and requires a modicum of standards and qualifications be met by those applying to enter our country. Illegal immigration is just people coming here without sanction and by their own intent without regard of the impact they make on those who live here.

The moral arguement seems lost to my view. If I drive drunk, asking society to feel sorry for me and pay my fines, legal fees and support my family and pay for my hospitalization...it doesn't go over well and hasn't, is my point. If we will not do that for citizens and legal residents, what is the moral reason to do that for people from elsewhere?

I am not saying to withhold charity. I am saying that it is morally right to take care of one's own house first, and if our moral standards are to limit what behaviors we recompense and care for in our own house (standards are set that we expect ourselves and others to live by), what moral imperative then makes those standards not credible for others, and not only that but requires us to compensate for the violations of those standards by people who disregard the standards?

These people are not stu... (Below threshold)
penny:

These people are not stupid. They are desperate. They know full well what the risk is of crossing a desert on foot and they do it anyway. The chance of freedom in the U.S. is worth the risk to people who have no possibility of enjoying those freedoms where they live.

That's ridiculous.

The chance of economic opportunity, yes.......your description of their plight as "the chance of freedom" is erroneous. There is a big difference. Mexicans are not refugees from a repressive regime that systematically violates their civil liberties. They have democratic elections and are not starving to death. They are trespassing for economic motives which neither Canada nor Mexico would allow us to do in return.

Let me also add that Mexico... (Below threshold)
penny:

Let me also add that Mexico has public schools and free medical care.

It's all about wages.

Something the apologists fo... (Below threshold)
-S-:

Something the apologists for illegal immigration always omit from the conversation is what the cost to society is when all these "workers" become frail, elderly and/or ill or any combination of those. Or thier children do. Who will also become elderly and probably ill at certain times of their lives.

Another forum is beset with a few pretty nasty people who continue to harp on the illegal immigration problem as being "an American problem, not the problem of the aliens (only they call them "workers" who happen to come to the U.S. by illegal means, which they also omit from their comments), as in, it's not anyone's "fault" who engages in illegal immigration, it is the fault of America who incentivizes them to, well, act illegally. So their skewered reasoning goes.

I do agree that people in the U.S. who employ illegal aliens are a big problem and deserve both public ridicule and effective penalty; however, limiting culpability and responsibility to only those employers and giving a pass to those who engage in illegal immigration is so indulging of bad behavior that it makes all bad behavior the fault of whoever notices or communicates in that behavior and omits blame from those engaging in it.

So, along those lines, that argument, are those who immigrate illegally mindless, unthinking, mentally incompetent, without all self awareness, such that no blame or responsibilities can be applied to them? NO, they aren't.

IF they're "able bodied" and such, then they are also ably responsible for their own behavior. By refusing to hold illegal immigrants responsible for their bad behaviors, all that is accomplished is their dependency and inabilities are encouraged, even rewarded.

Incentives are reasons to violate laws, yes, but so is heroin reason to get high for an addict. You have to apply standards to behaviors and it begins with personal responsibility, or lack thereof. SELLING drugs, "providing an incentive" to an addict to use drugs, is very bad. But so is using the drugs. Punishing one and indulging the other...is equally irresponsible, and equally wrong.

Maybe this is a stupid ques... (Below threshold)
Clobbergirl:

Maybe this is a stupid question, but how exactly does one legally migrate from Mexico to America and become a US citizen? I guess I've always had this pie-in-the-sky notion that there's a way for anyone who wants to to become a US citizen.

So... I'm a poor Mexican living in Ensenada and I'd like to migrate to the US, legally, and eventually become a citizen. How would I do that?

So... I'm a poor Mexican... (Below threshold)
penny:

So... I'm a poor Mexican living in Ensenada and I'd like to migrate to the US, legally, and eventually become a citizen. How would I do that?

I would think the first stop would be a US consulate office">http://usembassy.state.gov/">office in Mexico where they would assist you in the process like they do everywhere else in the world. There are 9 offices throughout Mexico.

If you can get a bus to the border, you can get a bus to a consulate office.

Inspite of the fact that th... (Below threshold)

Inspite of the fact that the illegals have been detrimental to us in numerous aspects, people are still defending them. They have no solution or suggestions other than to feel sorry for them and let them in. Nor do they ever bring up the fact that a significant number of them come over with no intent to find gainful employment. They come over as gangs, drug smugglers and human traffickers. THAT'S why we're fighting to get the feds to handle the situation appropriately.

Make the process of obtaining temporary work visas not so cumbersome.

Screen them before they're allowed in.

I hear the argument all the time how they heavily contribute to the tax base. Sure, the Federal tax base through fake SS numbers, which causes no end of grief to who the number may actually belong to, or they're getting paid under the table. But the state bears the burden of all the other costs of housing, emergency and medical care, etc. Businesses who act within the laws and don't hire illegals suffer too. And they don't contribute much to the local economy. The majority send as much as they can of their money back to Mexico.

So all this touchy, feely "they're just trying to make a living" speech will never solve the problem. We KNOW they're just trying to make a living. We just want it done right so we can be SAFE from all the nut cases. Why is that so hard to understand?

Actually, I believe that ma... (Below threshold)

Actually, I believe that many of them are not prepared for crossing the desert. They're coming from wetter southern climates and they aren't educated about things like deserts. Then, the coyotes lie to them saying it'll just be a short trip.

If you want to blame anyone for this situation, here are your three best choices:

1. The government of Mexico. They have government-sponsored staging areas for illegal immigration. They published a crossing guide and give out crossing kits. They even have an illegal immigration radio station. They do everything except bus their excess population to the border. What they should do is mount an extensive public education campaign telling their citizens to respect the U.S.'s laws and warning them of the dangers of the desert. They've done that to a certain extent, but they could do much more.

2. The "humanitarian groups" that put up water stations. These give the false belief that there will be water along the way.

3. The corrupt infrastructure that allows massive illegal immigration, starting with Bush at the top and proceeding down to corrupt corporations, "liberals", and all the rest.

Many from Mexico even disre... (Below threshold)
-S-:

Many from Mexico even disregard their own country, with parts of Mexico reported as..."...various arroyos and washes where illegals who make it across lay up after being delivered by their coyote to wait for a ride to a town near you...the places where the migrants congregate look like the contents of a Wal-Mart superstore, emptied ankle-deep. We find everything from school supplies to medications to baby clothes to soiled boxer-briefs to Don Pedro brandy (with limes) to baggies of garlic, which illegals mistakenly think will ward off poisonous snakes..."

I went to an orphanage one weekend in Tijuana and I was really shocked at what Mexico looked like and that was fifteen/twenty years ago: barren, like something/one had plucked it down to bare earth on the hillsides, and garbage everywhere. Arriving at the orphanage, having heard they were in need, I found an abundance of stuffs and things there but none of it was cared for, with piles of clothes all over the interiors of the buildings, piled so high you had to climb over the clothing stacks, and out by the washing lines, none of the laundry picked up after drying and brought back in, but just laying on the ground outside, in more stacks looking like they'd been there for months...

Unfortunately, that's what is also brought here to the U.S., and left along the way through the desert to the north and into the country, even, in many areas now of the U.S.

It was and is indicative to me of an approach to problems that just "gets away" from issues and conditions but does not take care of, fix, remedy, repair. It bothers me.

The quandray's about immigration...why does the U.S. have to provide to anyone how they can solve their problems, as with immigration, the how-to's and such? These are things Americans have to do for ourselves and every day: go figure out how to vacation in or even move to Australia, figure out how to pay taxes, figure out how to get a passport and do all that legally.

If someone in Mexico wants "a better life" and thinks they can get that in the United States, then by all means, research how to do it and then take one step at a time and get it done. But do it the legal and accurate way.

I still do not understand why and how anyone in Mexico/China/anywhere else thinks they can come to the U.S. and remain here by illegal means. I really can't understand it. If someone has thousands of dollars to pay smugglers, then they have enough money to apply for a VISA and get a resume out and apply for a job and more, to figure out how to get something done, and do it legally. The illegal means, methods are corruption in action, not the actions of anyone I think deserves citizenship.

Unfortunately, a lot of ill... (Below threshold)
-S-:

Unfortunately, a lot of illegal aliens in the U.S. are not interested in citizenship. They're here inorder to send money elsewhere and not to contribute to the U.S. by way of citizenship and all the responsibilities that go along with that. It's called exploitation.

Unfortunately, a lot of ... (Below threshold)
penny:

Unfortunately, a lot of illegal aliens in the U.S. are not interested in citizenship.

Especially true in Southwest border states where you can drive back to Mexixo in a matter of a few hours to see the extended family.

I lived in Albuquerque(4 hours to the Mexican border) for 8 years and I can tell you first hand that there is little interest in learning English by illegals. As an ER nurse, now in Florida, I met a 25 year old Mexican-American(big maybe on American? - can't ask in an ER setting) women yesterday with three kids in foster homes here. She spent 30 days hospitalized in a coma from a car accident, no husband, no insurance, has a theft history, and in 14 years here speaks no English but a few basic sentences. Any guess as to what her costs are for us taxpayers at present?

Message to the touchy-feely brain dead: if you don't mind spending your inheritance and taxes on this nonsense, be my guest at paying more taxes and sharing your finite resources with free-loaders, just suggest a way my family can opt out.

It's amazing how inhumane a... (Below threshold)
Chris:

It's amazing how inhumane a lot of you people can look once the mob mentality gets going on this board. I objected to Rob's piece, but that doesn't mean I'm in favor of illegal immigration. I've noticed there's a tendency by a lot of people on this board to state someone's position in the most absurd terms, and then go about debunking the position as they've stated it. To repeat, what Rob said was "Who cares?" Well, I do. I think we have the right to admit or keep out whoever we choose. But when a desperately poor family,living next door to a country of unimaginable wealth, decides to risk everything for a better life and ends up dead in the desert, yeah, I care. Last I saw, breaking our immigration laws wasn't a capital offense. Should we feel like the US is responsible? No, but that's not what Rob was addressing. He says "Do I like that these people are dying in the desert? Of course not." But he also says "Who cares?" So there's an inherent contradiction there. And saying the comparison to tsunami victims is way off base, but not criticizing someone who compares illegal immigrants to someone who really, really wants a new Corvette is also inconsistent. Do you really think these people are coming here from Mexico because they can get better cable? There's no one description that fits every illegal immigrant, which is why anecdotal stories like the woman with medical bills and a criminal history is worthless. I lived in Southern California for 10 years, and I'm sure you could hear a million stories of illegal immigrants working their asses off at two jobs and sending all of their money to their families. Those stories would also prove nothing. And we should just "pressure Mexico" to improve their standard of living? Do you really think it's that easy?

Did you notice that one group issued maps marking where people died, say ing "Don't go, it's not worth the suffering." I notice no one addressed them. What's wrong with what they're doing?

I know a lot of these people put pressure on our infrastructure, but I don't see how that extends to a who cares if they live or die attitude. And that is how this discussion started. People sure do talk tough on the Internet.

I have some seriously mixed... (Below threshold)

I have some seriously mixed feelings here about this one. Illegal immigration is a touchy subject. On one hand it is very important that we keep these people out to protect our society as a whole - and no I don't believe they damage our work force. The truth is though that they are extremely destructive to other parts of society. First off these people have to live somewhere which create large low income housing areas that inevitably lead to decreased property values and an increase in all forms of crime. They generally are unable to speak English and so they are more likely to suffer an accident in our society as all warnings are predictably in English. Health standards in the USA are very high which is not necessarily true where they came from (note that I don't make the foolish assumption to state that all illegal immigrants come from Mexico) which presents a real danger of spreading infectious disease. If you base your decision solely on that then obviously you couldn't care less about nameless immigrants dying in a desert. They were attempting to sneak into the USA which is not at all helpful to society here so them dying out in the desert from this view is actually a good thing.

The problem is that this isn't the whole story. The truth is that the USA prides itself on being the beacon of light and hope in a dark world and this is well known to others around the world too. This isn't some misconception that they have, this is the image that we as Americans give the world willingly. After all what is it we have written on the Statue of Liberty?


The New Colossus by Emma Lazarus

Not Like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"


Just reading that magnificent poem fills me with the image that the USA welcomes all with open arms. We pride ourselves on embracing others and accepting all no matter what background that person comes from. This idea is further supported by our Constitution and general mentality. Yeah, we don't get it perfect (we're human after all) but we try our best and slowly but surely our society is advancing into something more and more positive. I have no doubts that eventually base problems such as poverty and starvation will be eliminated from our society and then eventually the entire world. The USA isn't perfect by any means but we try hard and slowly improve. Who would have dreamed that those 13 colonies could have eventually become a coherent nation stretching from from the Atlantic to the Pacific? If I were one of the framers I certainly wouldn't.

The point is that we have told the world quite literally "Come to us and be happy and free! Be prosperous and safe here!" To deny that is to refute all of the wonderful history we have built ourselves on. It would be very cruel and deceitful of us now to suddenly attach a "No vacancy" sign to the Statue of Liberty. Even if these people are illegal immigrants - they're still immigrants trying to escape their oppressive existence (note that oppressive here is all encompassing including both human rights and economic status) wherever they're from and we told them that we are the people to come to for a better life. Like it or not, they are still our responsibility now and we should not shirk our obligations to these people. We don't need to automatically let them in - far from it in fact. What we do need to do is take care of these people with all the dignity and compassion that we would expect in return. It's good that volunteer groups have been doing something to help reduce these unfortunate and wasteful deaths. I'm glad that the border patrol is respectful and treats these unfortunate people with the utmost care and respect. To be frank, I doubt much more can be done here in the USA. We can try to close the border more, increasing the size and scope of the border patrol but as history shows desperate people will do desperate things in order to make it. The real solution to this problem is to actually uplift the current condition of the average Mexican citizen. Yeah, this is no easy task - but the real solution to many of our modern issues are never simple. Just as with crime the real issue here is humans being in a state of poverty. I've linked to them before but I'll do it again. Please visit this site, and fight the real issue of poverty. Maybe I'm being silly, but I would like to take pride in being a member of the "Great Generation" to end poverty as Nelson Mandela put it in a recent speech.

http://one.org

Please take the time - and sign the petition. Poverty causes unimaginable suffering in the world. I know that you guys are by and large sheltered form it. Sure you have had to have seen pictures of it on TV but none of you have actually seen it first hand. Maybe I have a unique insight on it from my trips around the world or maybe my upbringing in a Catholic private school makes me feel more obligated than most to do something about it, but I do feel strongly that this is something that needs to be done. There is no reason in our modern world to have any poverty at all, it is only our lack of action that allows it to continue.

I think that Chris brings u... (Below threshold)
Ryan A:

I think that Chris brings up a good point, namely that breaking our immigration laws does not warrant a death sentence. Supposedly, here in the land of the free and the home of the moderately humane, we give a damn about justice and fairness for all. Or does our humanity end at our political borders?

They take the risk because it generally pays off. Thats what we have to look at...why does it pay and how can that be changed.

I think its pretty calloused to blow this whole thing off with a big "who cares". How does that solve anything? I'm sure that most people dont want anyone to be dying trying to get into this country...at least I hope so.

People risking their lives in the desert to get here is a symptom of the overall problem that needs some serious attention. We do not want droves of people trying to enter our country in that way, period. It's not safe for them or for us, at all. What we do want is to encourage people to come here by legal means...we want to find ways to weed out the unsavory types while allowing workers to come in relatively efficiently. We dont want them to keep sneaking into our country unchecked. At least thats what I think.

If it pays off to keep coming here illegally, then people are going to keep doing it.

Some people might be pissed off for certain reasons about illegal immigration, which I can understand. But I dont like to see people get all high and mighty about what is their god given birthright, and to hell with people who happened to be born on the other side of the political fence. Those people are humans too, and supposedly Americans give a damn about having a certain measure of compassion. Supposedly.

Immigration is definitely a problem, but the truth is that part of the problem occurs on our side of the fence. All of the blame cannot be laid on the immigrants, sorry. We basically invite them here, or some of us do. Thats the truth. Along with that, our government doesnt really do a great job of enforcing the laws that already exist.

I dont care for the "screw them" attitude that I see going around. It actually is really disappointing to see that type of thinking. People are dying because the economic opportunities in their countries often suck. They take huge risks, and sometimes pay the ultimate price with their lives. Thats not something that I can just dismiss or ignore.


The government takes a very... (Below threshold)
Ring:

The government takes a very soft line with illegals even when they are discovered in the country.

Perhaps Chris' beliefs might be more widespread if dying in the desert were not the only way to keep illegals out.

Someday I hope you all actu... (Below threshold)
Bob:

Someday I hope you all actually go out and meet someone who illegally came to this country, and that the experience creates in you the nuance to realize that one can be staunchly against illegal immigration (as I am) and at the same time possess compassion for these least of our brothers.

The hatred and arrogance underlying this post and its comments quite literally sickens me (and I myself am a pretty hateful, arrogant dude). Do you think there's anything even remotely funny about dying of dehydration? Do you really think that people who suffocate inside cargo containers get what they deserve, because, hell, they're breaking our laws? Can you even fathom what painful ends those must be? I can't.

But what I can appreciate is that these people, cognizant of the dangers involved, are still willing to risk their lives to come to our country; that they'll seal themselves in oversized coffins just for a small chance of attaining what most of us here have taken for granted since, and by, birth.

Should we do everything in our power to make it that the only people who come to America are those who do it through legal, proper channels? Absolutely. But blaming illegal immigration on illegal immigrants is blindingly stupid. (And if any of you quotes that sentence and tries to point it out as an example of doublespeak, I really will hunt you down and punch you in the balls.) Illegal immigrants want better lives for themselves--lives that, tragically, they aren't given the opportunities for in their own countries. Do these people deserve our scorn because they're too poor to afford the prohibitively expensive application process?

Let's blame the people we can all agree to hate: politicians. Politicians are the only people who can justifiably be blamed for illegal immigration--the immigrants themselves are just trying to make better lives for themselves, and the business who hire them are simply trying to get the cheapest labor possible. Politicians could easily put a stop to all of this, if they grew the spines for it. But they don't. If we're going to belittle anyone, let it be them, not the people whose biggest crime was to be born too poor and on the wrong side of the border.

Bob you are a feeling twit.... (Below threshold)
Patrick:

Bob you are a feeling twit. There is no hatred for the people crossing the border illegally on any of these posts. We are very simply stating that it is NOT the responsibilty of the U.S. Government to help the citizens of FOREIGN nations break our laws. Too bad for them if they died along the way, life sucks and then you die. Boo hoo they were born poor. My heart bleads gallons and gallons for the pooooor pooooor people. I am so sad they didn't break any laws, except those horrible evil laws saying we are a soverign nation. Hope that wasn't too "NUANCED" for you, you arrogant elitist.

PatrickYou're righ... (Below threshold)
Chris:

Patrick

You're right, of course. How dare someone be a feeling twit. Let's hear it for unfeelingness. You show a remarkable ability to not only completely uncomprehend what people are saying, but to also see the message in your own words. Everytime someone says "I know we can't allow these people to enter, but I still feel bad for what they go through," the response is along the lines of "You people don't understand that these people have no right to come here. You think our government should be responsible for taking care of them." Have any of you noticed that no one actually says that? You're all so wrought up over this issue that you can't even process what you're reading. Rob's post said "Illegal immigrants die in the desert. Who cares?" (paraphrasing). I and others responded "we do." Just because someone's entering illegally doesn't mean you can't have some human feeling for their plight.

And this is the part that really gets me: "There is no hatred for the people crossing the border illegally on any of these posts..."

"Too bad for them if they died along the way, life sucks and then you die. Boo hoo they were born poor. My heart bleads gallons and gallons for the pooooor pooooor people."

I guess I just missed your compassion the first time I read your post. I'll have to read more carefully next time. Is that really all you have to contribute?

Chris - Now that y... (Below threshold)
JD:

Chris -

Now that you have nibly placed yourself atop the moral high horse, perhaps you would favor us uncaring, unfeeling brutes with your "solution" to the problem?

Because make no mistake - water stations and humanistic platitudes will represent no solution to the costs associated with the presence of illegal aliens (IOW, felons) on our streets and inside our social systems and infrastructure.

So, O Wise One, what Praytell might your solution be?

JD:I'll take on yo... (Below threshold)
Ryan A:

JD:

I'll take on your question to Chris, or at least give my two cents worth.

1. We have to realize why the people are coming here illegally. Because it pays off. As long as that is the case they will keep coming. Understanding their motivations might be useful when trying to alter their behaviors.

2. We have to enforce the immigration laws that we do have. Simple maybe, but it's just not something that is strictly or consistently enforced.

3. We have to address the fact that many American businesses and citizens are a part of the problem. They hire illegal workers and create incentive to come here.

4. If a large number of Americans want to keep employing from this labor pool, then we need to find a way to regulate it efficiently and bring them here by legal means. It doesnt help to pretend that nobody here in the states wants these people here...thats just not true. And it doesnt help to have this underground economy where wages are depressed and working conditions are substandard at best.

As Bullwinkle has written repeatedly, it is not Mexico's problem to enforce OUR immigration laws, its ours. It's our job to control the flow of people moving across our political boundaries, period.

What we really dont want is situations like this where people are coming here by dangerous and illegal means in order to fill labor demands that exist. If the demand is real, as it appears to be, then we want to be filling that demand in an efficient and legal way. We dont want people risking their lives and crossing deserts in order to get here and work.

What we have right now is a desperate situation where our border and law enforcement is stuck dealing with these people who put themselves in danger. It would be easy to dismiss those people as criminals who disregard our laws and leave it at that, except for the thousands of Americans who basically invite them here to work. Thats the catch. Those Americans vote, have influence, and certainly have a say in the matter. But then, so do the other Americans who are against this. Looks like we as Americans have some decisions to make, and some debates to get into.




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