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Sheehan: America Not Worth Dying For

Just in case you still harbored delusions that Cindy Sheehan wasn't bat-shit crazy here's some more evidence.

Wearing a sweatshirt advertising the website for United for Peace and Justice, Sheehan was interviewed outside just before the meeting by an ABC-TV news reporter. Sheehan said then that military recruiters should not be allowed on college campuses, maintaining they trick naïve 18-year-olds with offers of money and scholarships. Tragically, Cindy Sheehan lost her son Casey who was in the Army and was killed two weeks after arriving in Iraq. She claimed he was promised a job as a chaplain's assistant although once in the service was placed in a combat role and killed, certainly a moving story - one she exploits to promote venomous anti-Americanism. "George Bush and his neo-conservatives killed my son," she said tearing up a bit. "America has been killing people on this continent since it was started. This country is not worth dying for."

That's what Sheehan had to say while speaking at a function that also featured terror criminal Lynn Stewart, who was convicted for helping jailed terrorists communicate with their followers on the outside.

As though all of that weren't bad enough, here's a flyer that was handed out to advertise the event:

Terror Flyer

That's right. Cindy Sheehan spoke at and supported an event where the attendees discussed whether or not to support the people who killed her son.

This woman disgusts me.

(via GOP Bloggers)

By Rob Port of Say Anything.


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Listed below are links to weblogs that reference Sheehan: America Not Worth Dying For:

» Angry in the Great White North linked with Cindy Sheehan: Sick of handlers?

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» Conservative Outpost linked with Cindy Sheehan has lost it

Comments (79)

maintaining they trick n... (Below threshold)
shark:

maintaining they trick naïve 18-year-olds with offers of money and scholarships.

Reprehensible. I'm so sick and tired of this shit from the left trying to infantilize the troops. These are NOT naive 18 year olds, these are adults who made an adults choice.

Yeah, they "support" the troops by turning their very real heroism to something to be ignored.

To the left, kids are adult enough to get abortions and birth control w/o parental consent, but too stupid to understand what joining the armed forces mean.

The saddest part is that she probably doesn't even remember her son. He's just another political pawn to her. And he's certainly a pawn to the vile scum she's being exploited by.

Our troops are brave adults. Liberals are the stupid children.

She continues to dishonor h... (Below threshold)

She continues to dishonor her son by saying he was too stupid to understand what he was doing when he enlisted and then reenlisted. What a skank.

Geoge Bush disgusts me, Cin... (Below threshold)
Eddy Johnson:

Geoge Bush disgusts me, Cindy Sheehan hasn't sent thousands to war based on lies! Thanks Cindy, your voice is resonating and forcing Bush to provide some answers. The Kool-Aid gulpers can no longer tiptoe thru the tulips. The insurgents aren't in the last throes, as Cheney so blatantly lied about and the noble cause of the War on Error can't be explained by Bush or any ohter neo-con with a straight face. Fox News can no longer prop the puppetmaster up.

Largebill, I'm sure your mo... (Below threshold)
Eddy Johnson:

Largebill, I'm sure your mother is the skank. Why don't you prove how tough you are by signing up for the noble cause. You wouldn't last a day in Fallujah! Our military should be honored, but skanks like you deserve sympathy for being so pathetic. Until you have lost a loved one in a bogus war, you have no authority.

Eddy Johnson-That's a tired... (Below threshold)
Lin:

Eddy Johnson-That's a tired, old, repetitive and extrememly illogical arguement. We don't even bother to discuss those kind of attacks anymore because it says more about liberals than conservatives. And believe me it doesn't say anything good or positive about liberals.

Hey Eddy,You disgu... (Below threshold)
Mark Flacy:

Hey Eddy,

You disgust me, little boy.

I read the Sheehan speech s... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

I read the Sheehan speech some time ago and became aware of her extremism, but this flyer promoting her heroine (Stewart) is new to me. Yikes! There really isn't much pretense that can be drawn for endorsing such positions other than an advocacy for terrorism in Iraq.

She has burned the last vestiges of sympathy I had for her. She is not a grieving mother... she is a willing political activist now fully and unabashedly exploiting her son's death. Sacrifice her son?! My a**. Try using. What a disgrace.

That poor family should not have to put up with such a loon. No, that's an incorrect tag. She is not a confused, misguided, grieving mother. She is actually quite pointed and sincere in her contempt for America. Well, I'll gladly reciprocate the contempt. Hopefully, her son can forgive her should there be an afterlife. While in the present, however, I have for her nothing but disdain.

Lin, typical conservative w... (Below threshold)
Eddy Johnson:

Lin, typical conservative who can't handle the truth. Please justify the noble cause, or better yet get your butt over to Iraq or Afghanistan - take your pick. No, you'd rather sick back and all you can say is "liberal this, liberal that". That's so tired, and thank God Cindy Sheehan has taken off the shackles of the press and has forced Bush's hand. He can longer sit and the ranch and chop brush all day and exercise 10 hours a day while troops are dying. Go ahead, and take another gulp of Kool-Aide which obviously makes you feel better. Cindy has created a firestorm and now we're seeing counter protests all because she dared speak the truth. Truth - try it you might like it. Oops, If forgot conservatives need marching orders from Rush and Fox News in order to think. So sad!

Sorry Mark, if I digust you... (Below threshold)
Eddy Johnson:

Sorry Mark, if I digust you, but the truth is never pretty. Too bad your daddy is faltering and can no longer lie to Americans and squash the voices of the concerned. Cindy has forced him to go on his lyin' tour to try to get the 61% who don't approve of his War on Error down. Again, have you signed up yet, or are you just one of the many neo-cons who rave about war but seem to never wind up there themselves. Neo-con freaks digust me. Thanks Cindy, you have done your country proud!

She speaks at an eve... (Below threshold)
B Moe:


She speaks at an event where they advocate supporting the bastards who killed her son, and the moonbats still defend her.

And then call the right the Kool-Aid drinkers!

Eddy-your attacks are total... (Below threshold)
Lin:

Eddy-your attacks are totally off topic. If you have something to discuss that relates to the post that is something other than an attack, say it or move on.

Rope. Tree. Traitors. ... (Below threshold)

Rope. Tree. Traitors.

Why is it so hot in here? W... (Below threshold)

Why is it so hot in here? Wait...could it be...yes, I think it is...it's THE FIRESTORM CINDY SHEEHAN CREATED.

OH, IT BURNS!

And while I'm on the subjec... (Below threshold)

And while I'm on the subject, what's with the trolls the last few days? I've seen the same pattern here and at Captain Ed's & Dean Place. I wonder where they're co-ordinating out of?

John from WuzzaDem,<p... (Below threshold)

John from WuzzaDem,

Not so much of a firestorm as a leftist circle-jerk. Big difference there, Chief.

I think Eddy just hit every... (Below threshold)

I think Eddy just hit every major left wing talking point in the span of 25 minutes. Which means, if we were playing a drinking game, I'd be plastered by now.

Oh this is absolutely price... (Below threshold)
Darby:

Oh this is absolutely priceless...

"We have no Constitution. We’re the only country with no checks and balances. We want our country back if we have to impeach George Bush down to the person who picks up the dog sh-t in Washington! Let George Bush send his two little party animals to die in Iraq. It’s OK for Israel to have nuclear weapons but we are waging nuclear war in Iraq, we have contaminated the entire country. It’s not OK for Syria to be in Lebanon. Hypocrites! But Israel can occupy Palestine? Stop the slaughter!"
--Cindy Sheehan

I read that and I damned nearly pissed myself laughing. Can we say Delusional? Where does this woman get her information? Nuclear war in Iraq? We've contaminated the entire country? You'd have thunk that the Left Wing MSM would have picked up on that little tidbit and condemned it very loudly.

Apparently a little bit of information can be dangerous to ignorant people.

Comparing Syria being in Lebanon to Isreal and Palastine? My god woman!

I'm quite certain that if the Bush twins wanted to enlist, and serve their country in that matter, our President would be proud to have his daughters serve. Not to mention there isn't much he could do about it. They're of legal age.

Anyways, I figured I'd bring that quote here. I am not even joking. I damned nearly pee'd myself.

You really need to read what that link goes to. It's a riot.

Another funny quote:

"“We got a president of the Unites States who is not really the President, most people didn’t vote for him. The United States is an occupied government, “Africa said, ”based on the destruction of the natives.”"

So says Pam Africa

Enough said... I still giggle when I think about that one.

I'm taking the trolls as a ... (Below threshold)
jpm100:

I'm taking the trolls as a last hurrah by a bunch of dumbass schools kids before the parties start kicking in and they get too busy.

Lin, you must be one of tho... (Below threshold)
Eddy Johnson:

Lin, you must be one of those Log Cabin Republicans. Unbunch your panties, please, and think for yourself. The Repulsivecan talking points are no longer working for Bill O'reilly or Rush, so what makes you think they can work for you hear. You're just upset that the selling of the War on Error is no longer working. As I stated before, why not put you money where your fat mouth is and sign for the cause you deem so noble. Too cowardly I guess. Cindy Sheehan, thank God, has forced Bush out of his bubble and to view reality. He's so behind in the polls on the War issue that he has to go on a tour to sell it. What kinda crap is that - folks are either with him or against him and right now many are buying the lies!

Darby and you other sicko n... (Below threshold)
Eddy Johnson:

Darby and you other sicko neocons, wny not post the lies of Bush and scrutinize them. Cindy Sheehan's words are less powerful than the President's, yet everyone word she has uttered about her son's death in the War on Error is carefully weighed. Too bad you live in a fantasy world and believe that the insurgency's stronghold is in its last throes. The lies aren't working anymore and many are glad that Cindy Sheehan woke up many Americans who wanted to believe, but now see that GWB has orchestrated one of the biggest blunders in American history and has no clue of an exit stategy. Why aren't his prescious party animal lushy daughers fighting in the the so-called noble cause? Oh, I forgot, they have other priorities. Meanwhile the innercity and small town kids' folks are giving their blood. Why aren't you in Iraq or Afghanistan is another question that begs an answer. Oh, you can talk a good game but wouldn't dare put yourself in harm's way, same as your Master Bush. Peace be unto you!

For me Sheehan no l garners... (Below threshold)
Faith+1:

For me Sheehan no l garners longer garners sympathy. I viewed her as a distraught mother who perhaps went off the deep end over the loss of her son, or a confused person being manipulated by the left moonbats.

Now I realize she is far more despicable. She's just another nut moonbat and she is consciously using her son's death to promote her political agenda.

Wait until she starts to rant that she is glad her son died so she would have a reason to try and grab a spotlight for nutball ideas.

She's all but said it now...

For me, Bush no longer garn... (Below threshold)
Eddy Johnson:

For me, Bush no longer garners trust or faith in his leadership abilities. While the death toll is rising, before he went on his listening tour yesterday (after being forced by Cindy's actions), all he could think about was exercising and chopping brush. Saying "I have to get on with my life" was the last straw. Of course, has said some things that are objectionable, but why expect more from a grieving mother than one would from the President. He's an embarrasment and I'm so glad that some sane Republicans like war hero Chuck Hagel finally have the guts to speak. Cindy want be Roved over like the others who succumbed the the smear machine. Thanks, Cindy, your voice has resonated and no longer can Bush touting the noble cause that he can't explain to anyone other than his Kool-Aide swigging base that don't no any better.

Eddy:Your level of l... (Below threshold)
LJD:

Eddy:
Your level of literacy is a true product of the liberal public education system. It's almost as sad as your inability to formulate relevant arguments.

If America is "not worth fighting for", has been "hijacked" by neo-cons, etc... etc..., If it is not absolutely, unequivocally the best place to live on Earth... Then why not just leave? Why doesn't Sheehan go hang out with her buddy Fidel?

Dissent may be patriotic, but treason is a hanging offense. How can you hold the U.S. responsible for the heinous acts of homicide bombers? How could you solicit support for their acts during a time of war?

As if you EVER supported Bu... (Below threshold)

As if you EVER supported Bush, you Moby. Like an actual ex-Republican would be throwing around terms like "Rethuglican". Go back to your cave, little moonbat, and wank to the fact that you're on the same side of the issue as David Duke.

Eddy Johnson,I thi... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

Eddy Johnson,

I think I have the perfect bumber sticker, campaign button, or billboard slogan for you seeing as the coalition action there was ignoble/illegal/offensive/[insert slander du jour]:

+---------------------------------------------+
|............Hussein for President............|
|..........................................................|
| because Iraqis make good fertilizer |
+---------------------------------------------+

The Baathists could help boost agriculture greatly and diversify their various industries not to mention thinning out those pesky citizens, er dissidents.

Yeah, what is up with the t... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

Yeah, what is up with the trolls. I too have noticed multiple posting of virtually the same comment on multiple blogs. Perhaps Suzy was right about attempts at google-whoring to start a google-driven meme. Or maybe its multiple personalities, the trolls today sound exactly like JDC from this weekend.

Tob

1994,1996,1998,2000,2002,2004...and 2006 aint't lookin' too good either, Chomsky.

Sheehan: "America Not Worth... (Below threshold)

Sheehan: "America Not Worth Dying For"
Only an idiot wouldn't realize the country she's referring to is Iraq.
“George Bush and his neo-conservatives killed my son, America has been killing people on this continent since it was started. This country is not worth dying for.”

There's something worth loo... (Below threshold)

There's something worth looking into here...a few weeks ago, before Cindy let's say, illiterate attacks on the US (Blame America First) and Bush generally were met with anger (and laughter) and refuted...now nobody even seems to care much what this troll has to say or how many times he says it and really doen't even elicit much of a response. It's like the left rolled out Cindy to kind of bring things to a head and America just sort of shrugged..."eh, that's the best you got? been there, done that" and MovedOn (unlike, of course, MoveOn, which seems capable of almost anything except getting candidates elected or, in fact, moving on). I wonder if, indeed, Cindy was the tipping point, blogwise anyway.

Anybody agree that the trolls are losing their power to provoke? Like Cindy has now trotted out and made public all the little jibes and untruths and wacko theories (us conservatives are all controlled by a secret Jewish cabal, you know) that were all over the internet and in bringing them out into the light of day in the mainstream press (kinda, they tend to ignore a lot of her remarks) they've started to wither and die.

Definitely something happening there...I guess we can look forward to "Cindy Sheehan is Karl Rove's puppet" before long...

".I guess we can look forwa... (Below threshold)
Toby928:

".I guess we can look forward to "Cindy Sheehan is Karl Rove's puppet" before long..."

My father always thought that Joe McCarthy was a Soviet provocateur, designed to discredit anti-communists.

Tob

Nixon08 - Death is no excuse.

Cindy Sheehan needs to stop... (Below threshold)

Cindy Sheehan needs to stop projecting her own self-loathing onto the U.S. Just because she is not worth fighting for doesn't mean America isn't worth fighting for.

Eddy, do you know why you a... (Below threshold)
Sue Dohnim:

Eddy, do you know why you and your anti-war buddies are losing? Because you are worse "chickenhawks" than any rightwinger.

You could drive out and be at Cindy's camp right now, supporting her and helping her get the President's attention. But you're not doing it, even though it's much easier for you to do that than it is for a rightwinger to join the military.

Just drive out and sit. But you can't do it, because you don't really care about Cindy Sheehan, her son, or her grief. You're a hypocrite.

I keep wondering how much p... (Below threshold)

I keep wondering how much press coverage she would have garnered had she been demanding that GWB send thousands more troops into Iraq to wipe out the bastards that killed her son.

What if she had been in support of nuking the entire area? Deporting all Arab-Americans? Detainment of all Muslims in America?

In short, would her "grieving mother status" have given her opinion such weight if her opinion had been the opposite?

To her supporters, if you can't answer that last question in the affirmative, shut up. You don't give a tinker's damn about your beloved "Cindy," only the political agenda she espouses. Stop with all the "righteous indignation" that you throw around when someone questions her motives.

She is, as an American, entitled to her opinion. She is also, as an American, subject to having her opinion ignored, her demands unmet.

Cindy Sheehan is the one th... (Below threshold)
mesablue:

Cindy Sheehan is the one that is not worth dying for. Too bad her son disagreed and died protecting everything that she professes to hate. It must be the familial cognitive dissonance that is driving her crazy.

A few weeks from now, after Bush is in back in DC and Cindy tries to move her little camp out east, her absolute irrelevance will become obvious even to the MSM.

The day she moves into nutball history?

September 12, the day after she makes a bunch of disgusting statements on national television while the rest of the country remembers the terrible events that pushed us down the road.

Again...Bush meets with her... (Below threshold)
moseby:

Again...Bush meets with her...she gets a wedgie...she gets pushed down by her face...meeting over...8 seconds, tops.

i guess when you are the re... (Below threshold)
billy:

i guess when you are the republican party, devoid of ideas or a plan for iraq, then attacking a private citizen who has every right to protest is the best you can do.

say goodbye to the majorities in 06, you have nothing left to offer america.

you republicans are a bunch... (Below threshold)
billy:

you republicans are a bunch of cowards. if you were real americans and you believed in the war you would join up instead of being the pussies you are.

put your money where your mouth is. if casey sheehan was alive today hed hit you all over the head with the butt of his rifle for talking about his mother that way you losers.

RE: C. R. Kingsley's spin (... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

RE: C. R. Kingsley's spin (August 23, 2005 10:14 AM)

...Only an idiot wouldn't realize the country she's referring to is Iraq...

Perhaps you'd didn't read the full quote or recognize context:

"I take responsibility partly for my son's death, too. I was raised in a country by a public school system that taught us that America was good, that America was just. America has been killing people, like my sister [Lynn Stewart - convicted terrorist sympathizer - ed.] over here says, since we first stepped on this continent, we have been responsible for death and destruction. I passed on that bullshit to my son and my son enlisted. I'm going all over the country telling moms: 'This country is not worth dying for. If we're attacked, we would all go out. We'd all take whatever we had. I'd take my rolling pin and I'd beat the attackers over the head with it. But we were not attacked by Iraq. {applause} We might not even have been attacked by Osama bin Laden if {applause}. 9/11 was their Pearl Harbor to get their neo-con agenda through and, if I would have known that before my son was killed, I would have taken him to Canada. I would never have let him go and try and defend this morally repugnant system we have. The people are good, the system is morally repugnant.'"


There is no inference to dying for Iraq. It's a damnation of America and she is explicitly stating that she would not condone dying for this country, i.e. the repugnance that is the American system... to whit, the U.S.

You'd have to be an idiot to think the readers here would accept your spin and misinterpret Sheehan's contempt. Nice try to cleanse her rhetoric, but it won't work here.

I am so sick of you far lef... (Below threshold)
red stater:

I am so sick of you far left commie scumbags saying " sign up if you support the war." By that logic why don't all you lefties who wanna raise taxes to create dumbass social plans to help the so called less fortunate donatre all every penny you make to the governemtn then. Why aren't you lefties doing that you friggin hypocrites. I'm also sick and tired of hearing this liberal screed of "I support the troops but I don't support the war." That's BS. How do you lefties support the troops when you vote for people like Clinton, Kerry, and Kennedy who do nothing but vote against military funding. not to mention the ACLU who is out to make the US military look bad with this wqhole abu gharib crap. The fact is most troops are conservative republicans and all you pony tailed, marxist t-shirt wwearing peacenik deadbeats postin on here don't speak for the troops. Look at all the families of troops taht have died in Iraq that have come out against Cindy Sheehan. The fact is you lefties lost the election again and your pea sized brains are incapable of dealing with it. You lefties are the reason we lost vietnam and your the reason we will lose in iraq. If we have another 911 on our soil it will be beacuse of you pacifist terrorist appeasing scumbags. Just like when the WTC was bombed in 1993. Bill Clinton sat on his hands. And don't forget it was Janet Reno's fault that intel didn't get to the FBI about mohamad ata on 911. Yeah Clinton...peace and prosperity my ass!!!!! So you far left latte drinking, pony tailed, birkenstock and tye dyed t-shirt wearing, cindy sheehan ass kissing, baby killing, christian bashing, commie scumbags can keep on bitching but the country has had enough of your BS. Bush was re elected, roberts will be confirmed and the aclu is losing lawsuits left and right so bite it!

You pathetic neo-con moonba... (Below threshold)
Ed:

You pathetic neo-con moonbats are immune to the truth. Thanks to Cindy Sheehan, Bush has had to leave his comfy ranch and sell the War on Error again; he's had to finally acknowledge how many deaths he's caused; and he's got counter protestors fleeing to Texas to prop up their fearless and clueless leader. Go, Cindy, you have interrupted Bush's coveted vacation and gotten Americans to wake up. Thank God for sane Repubs like Hagel.

"Red Stater" is a most eloq... (Below threshold)
A. Alex Bryant:

"Red Stater" is a most eloquent spokesman for his cause. I really think that he speaks for all American conservatives. I am surprised that he has not been recruited by the current Administration. Perhaps he has ...

For all the determined patr... (Below threshold)
A. Alex Bryant:

For all the determined patriotism of the Bush boosters out there, I will make one prediction:

In five years or less:

- regardless of whether the U.S. stays engaged in Iraq,

- regardless of whether another 2,000, 4,000, 8,000 or 16,000 Americans die, and

- regardless of whether we spend another $80 billion, $160 billion, $320 billion or $640 billion on the cause ....

Iraq will have a radical Islamic government that:

- hates the West,
- utterly despises the U.S., and
- promotes worldwide terrorism.

We have not destroyed terrorism, nor will we. Rather, we are in the process of creating the largest and most hate-filled terrorist training camp the world will ever see.

It's a sorry prophecy, but, I believe, a certain one.

The only way to prevent it will be to move beyond occupation to outright colonization. But I don't think the U.S. has the stomach for it. After all, who would want to move there? That was always the problem with colonization when the Europeans tried it in the 19th and 20th centuries. It will be our downfall in Iraq.

What happened to Eddy Haske... (Below threshold)

What happened to Eddy Haskell - er, Johson?

That guy cracks me up.

Left, right ? I think both... (Below threshold)
Justin:

Left, right ? I think both sides have got it wrong, you guys should have taken a more careful approach when dealing with Iraq, don't make the same mistake with Iran or Norh Korea.

Congratulations to the Wing... (Below threshold)

Congratulations to the Wing Nuts out there for, once again, decontextualizing a quotation to suit the arguments of chicken hawks like Limbaugh, Hannity, and O'Reilly. Oh, and let's not forget Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, and Bush.

The irony here is that obviously none of these folks felt that America was worth their dying for. Cheney had "other obligations" during Vietnam. Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz never served a day in the military they lorded over together (and which Rummy continues to lord over). Bush . . . well, we know exactly how money, power and influence got him into the Texas Air National Guard, despite the fact that he earned the lowest possible passing score on the flight tests. The further irony for Bush here is that if Richard Nixon had approached Vietnam as the Pentagon is now staffing up the Iraq War (uh, with Guard and Reserves), W would have found his coke-stoked ass in some Cambodian jungle.

To respond to the notion whether America is worth dying for . . . It depends on whose America you are talking about. If we're talking about the America of Richard Pearle, Karl Rove, Grover Norquist, Kenny Boy Lay, Ann Coulter, Bill O'Reilly, Dick Cheney, George W. Bush, Rick Santorum, Tom DeLay, Rupert Murdoch, Paul Wolfowitz, Robert Bork, Antonin Scalia, Eric Rudolph, Rush Limbaugh, and Sean Hannity . . . I have grave doubts. If we're talking about the America of Haliburton or the Carlyle Group, I have even graver doubts. If we are talking about the America by the Republicans and for the Republicans--an America where both houses of Congress, the White House, and the Supreme Court is dominated by the Right Wing--I say no. This is not what our Founding Fathers had in mind.

If, however, we are talking about the America of millions of working class people, folks who work two and three jobs to support their families in this limp, jobless economic "recovery," the answer is absolutely yes.

If we are talking about the America that would treat gays, lesbians and people of color as second-class citizens, the answer is flatly, no.

If we are talking about the America where diverse opinions may be shared and discussed without reservation or fear of censorship or public censure, then, absolutely, yes.

If we are talking about the America of the USA Patriot Act, The America of corporate-controlled media that fails repeatedly to report the truth for the sake of political interests, the answer is absolutely not.

If we are talking about the America that guarantees the right to a fair trial and a competent public defender, that presumes one is innocent until proven guilty, the answer is absolutely, yes.

If we are talking about an America where the President has sole, unchecked authority to declare anyone an "enemy combatant," where people who look different, think different, or behave different may be declared a threat and subsequently detained. If we are talking about an America where "equal justice" means the uneven administration of the death penalty, the answer is absolutely not.

If we are talking about the America that perpetrates the abuse and torture of detainees, the America that would prefer to blindly scapegoat anyone who looks like an enemy rather than hunt down and capture the true enemy, the answer is no.

We need to decide. What kind of a nation we want to be. The current course of violent coercion, unprovoked military strikes, unwarranted imprisonment, interrogation and, yes, torture is not the America I grew up believing in with all of my heart and soul.

When we regain the respect of the international community through our fairness and generosity of spirit, then we will be the America I would die for. So long as we behave in such a way that generates fear over respect, compliance over cooperation, and bloodshed over dialogue, I cannot honestly say that America is worth dying for. Maybe that is closer to the point Mrs. Sheehan was making when she made her statement.

mcallan

Honestly, do you Wing Nuts ... (Below threshold)

Honestly, do you Wing Nuts actually find it necessary to refer to a woman who lost her son in a war that was sold on lies by your President as "bat-shit crazy"?

I can't even find this one in the Karl Rove "politics w/o conscience" Playbook.

As much as you all want to cover it up, deny it, place your hands over your eyes and ears and say, " I can't hear you! I can't see you!" This president and most of his administration has NO IDEA what it is like to serve a day in a combat zone, let alone what it's like to lose a child in combat.

Send the Bush twins. They've got nothing better to do than a half dozen beer bongs anyway.

RE: Marc Callan's post (Aug... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

RE: Marc Callan's post (August 23, 2005 10:40 PM)

It's really kind of sad to read so much bitterness and pessimism about this country you supposedly support. No wonder the Left is mired in defeat. There is just too much material presented to debate and it would clearly be a waste of time... and I'm not typically one to withhold long-winded responses. You've regurgitated the same talking points, misconceptions, and exaggerations I've been hearing for months, if not years. They've been debated here for about as long. What a sorry lot.

Enjoy your misery... you clearly thrive in it. As it stands your ideology will slink further into irrelevance. That is the silver lining in your clouds.

OK, so Eddy Haskell's gone,... (Below threshold)

OK, so Eddy Haskell's gone, but this Marc Callan guy is almost as funny.

Thanks for your input.... (Below threshold)

Thanks for your input.

Your Screen Name is obviously aptly chosen.

If there is misery in gross injustice, then I suppose I'm in misery, although, I assure you it's far from enjoyable.

This President gave a tax cut to the wealthiest Americans during a time of war, an audacious feat that has ho precedence in American politics and one that certainly could not have been achieved had he been faced with at least one house of Congress controlled by the opposing party.

I welcome your debate. Your claim that I have presented so, so much bespeaks the ease with which your mind is overwhelmed, not the merits or lack thereof of what I say.

I'll simplify this for you, since it appeares you need that. Pick one thing, one assertion I've made and focus on it.

If my argument is not worth your time to refute, then I suppose the nearly 70 percent of Americans who feel as I do are not worth your time either.

So, enjoy the 30 percent company of your fellows and the few "undecideds" next year, after November 2006. Either explain your position cogently or give up.

Seems like you Wingers are all about the bluster and blow-hardiness as long as everyone agrees with you. As soon as someone actually challenges you, however, you have the staying power of a hamster's erection.

mcallan

Oh GOD!!I'm SOOOO ... (Below threshold)

Oh GOD!!

I'm SOOOO negative!

I'm sooo bitter!!

Waaaah!

Give me a big break.

The Right Wingers are the ones who feel such an urgent need to prove themselves through military action. Sounds like an extreme case of the "insecurities" to me.

Oh, and you also like to prove how freakin' macho, smart and self-righteous you are by attacking a woman who lost her son in war, simply because she donesn't agree with your codpiece-wearin' commander-in-thief.

Good thing you all know how to steal elections, 'cause you sure as hell couldn't win 'em on your good looks and charm, not to mention your policies.

Marc Callan said:"... (Below threshold)
fatman:

Marc Callan said:

"Rumsfeld...never served a day in the military."

Wrong. Donald Rumsfeld was a Naval aviator and flight instructor for three years after his graduation from Princeton in 1954.

Marc Callan also said:

"...if Richard Nixon had approached Vietnam as the Pentagon is now staffing up the Iraq War (uh, with Guard and Reserves) W would have found his coke-stoked as in some Cambodian jungle."

Wrong again. Twice. Reserve and Guard members DID serve (with distinction) in Vietnam. And Bush volunteered for a three month tour of duty in Vietnam, but was denied. Possibly because the Air Force decided to begin withdrawing the plane he was trained to fly, the F-102 Delta Dagger, which saw action in Vietnam with (among others) members of the 147th Fighter-Interceptor Group which Bush was stationed with, at about the time he entered flight school. Or it could be that the operation he volunteered for (Palace Alert) was winding down and not accepting any new volunteers. As for his test scores, low or not, he DID pass.

Finally, Marc Callan says:

"Send the Bush twins. They've got nothing better to do than a half dozen beer bongs anyway."

I won't try to answer that. Instead, I'll let THIS guy do it:

http://www.proteinwisdom.com/index.php/weblog/entry/18868/

He's way better at than I could ever hope to be.

Shark,Yes, our tro... (Below threshold)

Shark,

Yes, our troops are brave adults. They were sent to war by sutpid children who never fought in a war themselves, who never learned in Kindergarten that lying is not ok.

Are you and your Wing Nut buddies here posting from the Green Zone? Or, do you lack the balls to sign up for the war you so vehemently support.? Hey, I don't think age is any object here. Last I checked, the military was having a bit of trouble meeting its recruitment goals. They'd take you, and besides, it wouldn't hurt to ask. Sign up. And give some kid who knows he was lied to the chance to come home to his family in one piece.

RE: Marc Callan's post (Aug... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

RE: Marc Callan's post (August 23, 2005 11:24 PM)

Your Screen Name is obviously aptly chosen.

Your observational skills and perspective of my nom de plume are as keen and insightful as your political analyses and as sound as your platform. Keep up the good work. (The compassionate conservative says: watch out for those termites.)

But about responding to your rambling, no thanks. I obviously cannot handle such a worthy and high-minded list. It's just so unique, so original, so new... I'm overwhelmed. It's a cathartic moment. I just hope I can continue. Woe is me. Why, I feel Liberal already.


Seems like you Wingers are all about the bluster and blow-hardiness as long as everyone agrees with you. As soon as someone actually challenges you, however, you have the staying power of a hamster's erection.

Again with the phallacies. What is it with the trolls? Anyway, yes. You've stumped the band. I cannot stand a challenge. I have never stood a challenge. I will not stand a challenge. I am Democrat. Hear me roar!

RE: Marc Callan post (Augus... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

RE: Marc Callan post (August 23, 2005 11:42 PM)

Are you and your Wing Nut buddies here posting from the Green Zone? Or, do you lack the balls to sign up for the war you so vehemently support.? Hey, I don't think age is any object here. Last I checked, the military was having a bit of trouble meeting its recruitment goals. They'd take you, and besides, it wouldn't hurt to ask. Sign up. And give some kid who knows he was lied to the chance to come home to his family in one piece.


More unique insight from the fountain of knowledge and pristine thought.

bawk*bawk**chickenhawk**bawk*bawk

Man. You guys need to mix up point one of the circulating anti-war memos. You know, shift the order around a bit so it stays "fresh".

Damnit, that link doesn't w... (Below threshold)
fatman:

Damnit, that link doesn't work.

I think Cindy is great. No... (Below threshold)
Mark Nichik:

I think Cindy is great. Now I wish more, many more, of the thousands of women and men who have lost their babies in Irag and Afghanistan would join in her wonderful crusade for the truth

Okay, let's try it again:</... (Below threshold)
fatman:

Okay, let's try it again:

http://www.proteinwisdom.com/index.php/weblog/entry/18868/#comments

That oughta do it. Damn, but I wish I knew how to cut and paste.

Hey, Marc Callan, how do YO... (Below threshold)
fatman:

Hey, Marc Callan, how do YOU know how much staying power a hamster's erection has? You been hanging With Richard Gere?

Uh, so, I'm waiting . . . t... (Below threshold)

Uh, so, I'm waiting . . . tapping my foot . . .

do any of you have a real argument for this war that doesn't involve the harebrained notion that Iraq was connected with 9/11?

Or is it something from your childhood?

Oh, and while you're at it, why is it that a high level Bush official might tell the Washington Post that we can no longer expect the following in Iraq . . .
--a stable, self sufficient democracy
--a reconstruction paid for by Iraqi oil revenues

did we really expend this much blood and money to simply create another Islamist ally for Iran?

Boy, that was worth it! Oh, wait, I forgot! None of you actually fought in this war.

Oh, and you all still got your tax cut. Yay Rah!

it's simple, really . . .

Where are the WMD'S?

When did Iraq actually attack the United States?

If freedom is truly "on the march", why can't the Iraqis meet the first two deadlines on their constitution. Why does the insurgency become more violent and more sophisiticated with each passing week/month?

Remember Bin Laden? The guy who actually masterminded the attacks on this country? Hey, forgive me for asking, but where is he these over 1000 days after the President promised us he would get OBL "dead or alive".

You know, what really pissed Novak off was when Carvelle said, "you have to talk tough to these Right Wingers, or they'll just like to you."

Truer words were never spoken.

Not hiding behind anonymity like Drivel,

Marc D. Callan

RE: Marc Callan's post (Aug... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

RE: Marc Callan's post (August 24, 2005 12:24 AM)

Not hiding behind anonymity like Drivel,
Marc D. Callan


That's MR/MRS/MISS/SEñOR(ITA)/DR/SIR/MADAM AnonymousDrivel to you, if you don't mind.

CORRECTION:As it w... (Below threshold)

CORRECTION:

As it was late in the evening, I mistyped James Carvelle's statement. It should read:

"You have to talk tough to these Right Wingers, or they'll just lie to you."

Apologies to Mr. Carvelle.

It also seems that Right Wingers are either prone to lying or to trivializing matters of life or death when they can't answer for themselves without lying.

Somewhere, there is a room ... (Below threshold)
moseby:

Somewhere, there is a room full of chimps typing madly on Underwoods trying to produce a Shakespearean Masterpiece...the rejects get signed 'marc callan' and end up here...

I wonder if any of you have... (Below threshold)
Jamie:

I wonder if any of you have ever seen a war site. Human bodies blown to bits. Dogs running down the road with pieces of human flesh (not to mention the stench) or have you ever helped out in a make shift morgue where you had to carry burned and charred bodies of young people who were totally innocent but just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. It brings you to your knees and one thing is for sure you would never want another innocent person to be killed ever especially not one you love like your child. So how many innocent people are being killed daily on both sides? How many enemies are we creating daily as a result? How many of these families who have lost innocent loved ones are now willing to give their lives for another suicide mission? And if we want to talk about democracy and if they ever have it in Iraq they will all be voting in a fanatic Muslim government because that is what the majority want. There must be a better way to go after terrorists then to do what they do (blow up innocent people) in the name of a just cause (which is what the terrorists also claim to be fighting for). Instead of picking and fighting left against right and all this egotistical “we are right we are the greatest bulshit” - why not find some real solutions. Explore the idea we all create our own realities (as individuals as well as a society) and when we have enemies maybe we had something to do with creating them if your really smart you’ll at least contemplate and explore that idea. Wake up! Some body has to or we will all be domed.

Please, continue to prove m... (Below threshold)

Please, continue to prove my point that there is no sound argument for your position.

Oh, and by the way, Shark, if the right wing is so supportive of the troops, why do they cut veterans' benefits at the same time they cut taxes for the wealthiest Americans, whose sons and daughters are not fighting this war? Why do they pass an energy bill that susidizes an oil industry that is making record profits? If the Right Wing chicken hawks won't fight this war, they could at least have the decency to put money behind our troops and not into the pockets of Dick Cheney's Haliburton.

Which leads me to another lie . . . Wolfowitz testified before Congress that Iraqi oil revenues would pay for the reconstruction. Obviously, that is not happening.

See, you think that the left wing is your enemy. Honestly, the people you really need to worry about are the people you trust the most, the Neo-Cons who stoke up fear for their own political gain.

The President would love for you to believe that it is only a small radical left wing constituency that criticizes this war. Last time I saw Chuuck Hegel on CNN, there was a capital R after his name.

One more thing, I stand corrected on Secretary Rumsfeld. He did serve in the Navy Reserves, although the Defense Department website makes no mention of his ever having served in combat, despite the fact that he was active throughout the Vietnam War.

However, the basic thrust of my assertion still stands. None of the top-level officials I named have ever put their lives on the line for this country. My suspicion is that few, if any, of the commenters here have done so either.

RE: Jamie post (August 24, ... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

RE: Jamie post (August 24, 2005 11:12 AM)

...So how many innocent people are being killed daily on both sides? How many enemies are we creating daily as a result? How many of these families who have lost innocent loved ones are now willing to give their lives for another suicide mission? And if we want to talk about democracy and if they ever have it in Iraq they will all be voting in a fanatic Muslim government because that is what the majority want...

Hmm. How many innocents? I don't know since hard numbers are difficult to come by and most are guestimations, but there's an inference that I detect from that question that coalition forces are equally responsible for those deaths of innocents. Is there that callously but accurately used "collateral damage"? Of course, and that is tragic. But coalition forces are trying their darndest to minimize that collateral to the point of developing and using exhorbitantly expensive smart weapons. Likewise, they often put themselves at risk via strict rules of engagement to save the civies. The same cannot be said of the terrorists whose goal it is to punish soft-targets as part of the bloodletting to change public opinion. HUGE difference. Incomparable. Further, what do you figure the plight of these saved souls will be if coalition troops concede the mission and relegate the field to those terrorists? There will not be peace if they stand down though there may be an armistice. Cambodia and Vietnam should ring a bell here... and the "victors" by default will not stop at their borders to limit their influence. Suffice it to say, I don't want them anywhere near mine or the borders of other peaceful nations.

How many new enemies? I don't know. How many friends will be created once these oppressed peoples breath the air of freedom, walk the street and can vocalize dissent, or just plain go to market without fear of getting picked up by a death squad? Why is there an assumption that all people whose family members are killed during terrorist assaults and concomitant response will mutate into bloodthirsty homicide bombers? Don't you think they can recognize sincere efforts to defend their land and not the hijacking of it by fanatics who would just as well hijack their religion?

I share your concern about a radical theocracy taking hold, but there are signs that this will not happen. A radical, Sharia based "democracy" would be considered a conditional failure to me. Mind you, the removal of Hussein and his more immediate threat were important and meritous and does not tarnish the entire mission; however, a fanatical Islam would be a legitimate blemish. Time will tell to what degree each goal is achieved.

We cannot hope to infuse wholly 21st century Jeffersonian democracy in that land, but we can inject a dose of it. Hopefully, in a couple of hundred years of practice, they'll figure out what we already know... that democracy, despite occasional messiness, is infinitely more satisfying, empowering, peaceful, and fruitful. The coalition and steadfast supporters believe such a vision is worthy and possible. The Cindy Sheehans of the world should not, by default, get "absolute moral authority" [M. Dowd - NYT] to derail or undermine such noble pursuits.

Uh, so, I'm waiting . . ... (Below threshold)
Patrick Chester:

Uh, so, I'm waiting . . . tapping my foot . . .

Try holding your breath.

Funny how you liberal hypoc... (Below threshold)
red state:

Funny how you liberal hypocrites have a problem with Republican politicians military histories when you consider the fact that you all voted for draft dodging Bill Clinton twice. TSK TSK....

Its not about Sheehan,the w... (Below threshold)
danel:

Its not about Sheehan,the war or any other lame excuse you can come up with (Eddy, Marc)Its about our President and you know it. The bottom line is you lost and we WON, and your not man enough to admit it. So get a job and lets get on with our lives.

Military families think the... (Below threshold)
worker 757:

Military families think they should be worshipped. That's why they join and encourage their children to join.

"I can do no harm. I am an American soldier. We don't abuse the other side. We have more ethics because we are Americans."

Yeah right. Live in that fantasy world that American wars are kosher and nobody innocent gets hurt or molested or raped. The smart bombs weren't so smart and they hit the wrong buildings.

Firefighters. Cops. We treat them like idols. Why are their jobs more noble than teachers or social workers or journalists? Basically, you have to carry a gun or badge or flag and you're allowed this after-life diplomatic immunity that nobody deserves.

Let's all carry the flag to work to tug at everyone's heartstrings. I am a martyr because I value life less than a mother but more than a barbaric Iraqi.

When I die, I want guns to go off. It's so romantic. It's so poetic. It's so sadistic.

Question: Why can't GEORGE ... (Below threshold)
Reich Wing:

Question: Why can't GEORGE BUSH have any more CHILDREN?

Answer: Because his BALLS are in BAGHDAD.

"Funny how you liberal hypo... (Below threshold)
Reich Wing:

"Funny how you liberal hypocrites have a problem with Republican politicians military histories when you consider the fact that you all voted for draft dodging Bill Clinton twice. TSK TSK...." —RedState

Republicant politician George Bush's so called "military history" consists of going AWOL from a cushy stateside job Daddy Bush got him. That's much worse than draft dodging.

"Somewhere, there is a room... (Below threshold)
Reich Wing:

"Somewhere, there is a room full of chimps typing madly on Underwoods trying to produce a Shakespearean Masterpiece...the rejects get signed 'marc callan' and end up here... Posted by: moseby at August 24, 2005 10:08 AM"

Eurika, Moseby! I found the room! It's behind your eyeballs and between your ears.

A Bush belongs not i... (Below threshold)
Reich Wing:


A Bush belongs not in the White House, but in an aroboretum.

typical liberal bullshit re... (Below threshold)
RED STATE:

typical liberal bullshit reich...correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't it the loony left who kept screaming "at least kerry served" this past election

well if we're going to compare bush to clinton.... "at least bush served"

what was clinton doign during nam?

oh yeah that's right......... a president's military service or lack thereof is allowed allowed to be discussed when it doesn't cast a negative light on a liberal democrat

clinton dodged the draft and you voted for him twice reiich

Again.........YOU ARE A FUCKING HYPOCRITE!

Red State,Two thin... (Below threshold)
Marc Callan:

Red State,

Two things . . .

1. My dad always said "Profanity is a strong expression of a weak mind."

2. During the 2000 Campaign, George W. Bush repeatedly said that he was opposed to "nation building." When this has been pointed out to him or his supporters since the invasion of Iraq, the change in position is justified by saying that 9/11 required a change in US Foreign Policy.

Well, 9/11 did change everything, and the Bush Administration's ill-conceived response has changed things even more drastically. Unlike the years when Clinton was President, we now find ourselves entrenched in a war, and, yes, given the fact that we are at war, it makes more sense to have a Commander-in-Chief who actually served in combat.

Furthermore, the hypocrisy of which you accuse Reich cuts both ways. During Clinton's entire presidency, the right wing attacked him as a "draft dodger," however, you get all yippy when progressives point out the fact that Cheney didn't serve at all, and the Bush failed to report for a year of his guard duty.

It is true that President Clinton served no more time in the military than Richard Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, or Condoleeza Rice. It is also true that President Clinton's combat military service equals that of President George W. Bush.

And truthfully, none of this matters a bit. What matters is sound policy. What matters is intelligent planning, and when it comes to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the current administration is sorely lacking in these areas.

Look, let's face it. The President is just not a very bright man. During the 2000 campaign, he referred to the citizens of Greece as "grecians." He had no idea who the leader of Pakistan was, except to say that he thought the guy was a general. His answer to everything Iraq is "stay the course," even when it's clear to nearly 70 percent of Americans that the war plan is just not working, that the situation on the ground is horrible.

Did you vote for President Bush so that he could continue to sacrifice our soldiers to give Osama Bin Laden EXACTLY what he wants--an Islamic state in Iraq?

Or did the President say enough of the right "trigger words" for you to believe that . . .
a. He means what he says.
b. He's a good Christian.
c. He's got the situation under control.
d. He has a clear plan to fight the "War on Terror"

Honestly, if you bought all of the above, than you can consider yourself a true member of the "Bush base." You were marketted to. The whole message was tested, tweaked, and massaged for you. All they needed to do was stoke up a few fears--terrorism, abortion, gay marriage, social security (while COMPLETELY ignoring the more imminent disaster in Medicare). Fear is a powerful thing. It'll make an otherwise sensible person do very strange things--like voting against their own best interest.

It's not that I actually expect you to read this entire post, Red State. Nor do I expect you to respond in anything that resembles reason and logic.

Reich, stay out there.

"How many new enemies? I do... (Below threshold)
Marc Callan:

"How many new enemies? I don't know. How many friends will be created once these oppressed peoples breath the air of freedom, walk the street and can vocalize dissent, or just plain go to market without fear of getting picked up by a death squad?"--Anonymous Drivel

Our invasion and continued presence in Iraq has made this situation worse. We created a power vacuum and our inability to provide security has provided for foreign fighters, terrorists, suicide bombers . . . .

This is not necessarily an "anti-war" statement, and it is certainly not a slight on the men and women who are on the ground fighting this war. It's an indictment of the decision-makers--Rumsfeld, Cheney, and ultimately, the Commander-in chief, himself.

The Bush Administration has stubbornly ignored the good advices of career military officers who knew what would be required in Iraq. They ignored General Shinseki. They ignored the "Powell Doctrine," and the hawks in the administration worked very hard to render the Secretary of State irrelevant. They silenced Larry Lindsey's estimated cost of the war before the invasion in favor of far smaller dollar amount. Although Lindsey resigned, it turned out his estimate for the first year's cost of the war was right, nearly to the dollar.

In case you haven't been paying attention, there are actually two progressive anti-Bush trains of thought on the war in Iraq. Many advocate the "pull out now," philosophy, but others (and Kerry was one of these) insist that we need to fight this war to win it by getting more troops on the ground. That doesn't necessarily mean more American troops, and if Bush had an ounce of political capital left in the international community and with the United Nations or NATO he might actually be able to build a larger "coalition of the willing," rather than watching our international (and domestic) support for this war go down the drain.

There is absolutely no point in conservatives and progressives arguing over whether we should have gone into Iraq. We went and we're there. I do think it's high time, however, that we start dropping our partisanship and start a national dialogue on an exit strategy because the Bush Administration has none. Cindy Sheehan is part of that national dialogue, and you will find Senator Chuck Hegel and Congressman Walter Jones standing much closer to Mrs. Sheehan ideologically than they stand to the President (who is of their own party).

As a lifelong Democrat and intense Bush skeptic, I still supported the war in Afghanistan in the weeks after September 11, but I saw absolutely no reason at all to rush into war with Iraq while we still had unfinished business in Afghanistan.

However, we went in and we're still there.

So, what are our goals?

What's the best plan to achieve them?

How do we end this thing as effectively and efficiently as possible so that we can bring our troops home and the Iraqis can have their country back?

Can we stop the political pissing contests and actually talk about solutions?

You know, there are both Republicans and Democrats on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan, putting their lives on the line, and they all bleed and die exactly the same.

Wow, did I really kill this... (Below threshold)
Marc Callan:

Wow, did I really kill this discussion?

I guess so . . .... (Below threshold)
Marc Callan:

I guess so . . .

Wow, I've never actually ma... (Below threshold)
Marc Callan:

Wow, I've never actually managed to get the last word with a room full of Republicans

COWARDS!All of you... (Below threshold)
Marc Callan:

COWARDS!

All of you WING NUTS are COWARDS!

"Oh, but Marc Callan is crazy. So is Cindy Sheehan nuts!"

"The president is a Compassionate Conservative!"

Bull.

Tell that to the woman in New Orleans who gave birth to a still-born baby last night. Tell that to the mother of a two-year old who was trampled to death.

While New Orleans was drowning, Bush played golf. While New Orleans was drowning, the Vice-President was still on vacation. While New Orleans was dying, Condoleeza Rice was hitting tennis balls and shopping for shoes on Fifth Avenue.

Awfully telling that Bill Clinton hit the ground in the area a full day before our Commander in Thief.

It's not surprising, however. George W. Bush's base doesn't include poor white trash and niggers. Such folk don't matter much to him.




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