One has only to look at the track record of CAIR, or to realize the vast # of mosques funded by Saudi Arabia to know that most Muslims are Muslims first, Americans second. If there is a second.

There have been too many anecdotes of people visiting mosques and hearing inflammatory messages to believe that Muslims are trustworthy. And there is nothing in Muslim theology or praxis to show that they mean us well.

Dhimmi=dummi, no matter what country they're in.

You can apply the same scenario to any other group of people. It is only ignorant americans who think that it only applies to a muslim.

Besides, Islam preaches a lot of the same values Christianity preaches. Maybe there are a few extremists, but you can't blame that on the religion. Besides, there are plenty of extremist Christians as well.

In my experience (with Muslims), you're right.

Sheila's "tu quoque" argument doesn't wash. Islamic fundamentalism is of a different order from the fringes of Islamofacism. It is supremacist, exclusive,and in addition to a long bloody history, it has a current bloody present. It is anti-Semitic, anti-American, and does not deserve encouragement on American soil.

Whether or not it's a 'few' extremists, they are doing a lot of damage to our commonweal and those who remain silent are much like the silent Germans of the 1930's -- scared, indifferent, or self-absorbed.

It is a politics of victimhood, resentment and revenge. To relativize this kind of mayhem is to fail to understand the currents of history and geopolitics. Eurabia may happen, but Amerabia is not going to ever be born, despite the current "it's-all-the-same-why-can't-we-just-get-along" theme song.

There are not enough people in your chorus.

Besides, there are plenty of extremist Christians as well.

And when they do wrong, they are generally critricized by other Christians. Christianity doesn't include a moral double-standard that excuses believers while condemning non-believers -- good conduct is good for all, and sin is sin for all.

The lack of genuine condemnation of Islamic terrorism by one of Muslim America's premier advocacy organizations is a strong rebuttal to attempts at moral equivalence. Sorry, Sheila.

As far as I'm concerned, CAIR is more like a modern, PR-sensitive Muslim counterpart to the WW2-era German-American Bund than anything else. There were other German-American organizations back then that didn't embrace Naziism, and even openly opposed it -- but for some reason there don't seem to be such alternatives to CAIR.

So is the point of the posting to foment Patriotic anger towards Muslims based on vast generalizations?

Is Jay leading us somewhere here? Is he saying we should we start thinking about internment or a Holy War against Muslims or are we just supposed to nod and say "yeah, all Muslims are bad, bad Americans and bad, bad people"?

No, Mars, I'm simply pointing out the flagrantly obvious: here is a Muslim community, one that is from all I've read flagrantly average and common for a Muslim community in America, that had terrorists in their midst. And when those terrorists were arrested, their main focus was on finding out who informed on the terrorists -- and I'm sure it wasn't to give them a hearty handshake.

If you can find a single counterexample of a Muslim community actually taking action to report terrorists amongst themselves, or taking some sort of action beyond shouting loudly "you can't blame us for what they did!" and "it's terrible, but it was predictable, because they were provoked," I'll give it prominent play. But I don't think you'll be able to find one. Lord knows I've looked for one.

J.

Muslims "leaders" in this country for the most part are embarrassing. They are more apologists and opportunists than anything else doing more harm to the image of the average Muslim. I put groups like CAIR on the same level as a Pat Robertson.

At least in the UK with the BBC showing the true colors of the Muslim council of Britain, there is finally a debate on who should be representing Muslims in public.

I think he's just pointing out the overall apathy of muslims to terrorism, and their tendency to excuse it and protect it, while only speaking out when it is to behave as victims.

I think that the conclusions people draw are pretty obvious, and the fact that the conclusion is an unfortunate one doesn't change the facts.

In my experience (with Muslims), you're right.

Posted by: -S- at August 29, 2005 01:50 PM

THAT (^^) WAS IN RESPONSE TO JAY TEA...

Besides, Islam preaches a lot of the same values Christianity preaches.

That's like saying that ... gah, ok, I won't invoke Goodwin's law here, let's come up with another one.

Ok, that's like saying Capitalism and Communism share a lot of the same values because they both are forms of government and are meant to create stable societies.

The fact is, an extremist Christian is just really really annoying. An extremist Muslim will blow you up.

Problem is in most Muslim communities, loyalty and close ties are the key. The problem goes back to Muslim "leaders" instead of demanding people out the extremists, they make excuses.

There is the fear factor of trying to do the right thing and causing a backlash within the community they live. But that goes back to "leaders" and the community itself that needs to get out of that mentality.

No really, where are you going with this Jay Tea? I mean, if we can't trust American muslims to side with us, or rather, they already chosen sides against us, what do we do next? Either you ar carping about something that has no real import or you bring this up because you think something should be done about it. So come on, where's your backbone? Tell us what you think should be done.

"Besides, there are plenty of extremist Christians as well."

Timothy McVeigh was one of these I guess.
Key Word: WAS

Cindy Sheehan IS one. From her letter:

"Am I emotional? Yes, my first born was murdered. Am I angry? Yes, he was killed for lies and for a PNAC Neo-Con agenda to benefit Israel. My son joined the Army to protect America, not Israel."

She might as well convert to Islam. They both believe in the destruction of the Jews.

Craig,

Two communists are talking. One asks the other,"Do you know the difference between capitalism and communism?" The other replies, "No, what?"

"Well, in communism man exploits man. In capitalism it's the other way around." LOL.

I got that from a Mad Magazine I read back in the 60s.

Sheehan is your typical moonbat -- it's always blame the Jews.

Unfortunately, because the US believes in appeasing the Islamists or in fighting a politically-correct war, our children or our children's children will either (a) have to fight a very bloody World War IV or (b) have to live in a Muslim nation because the Libs turned our men into prissy metro-sexual cowards who actually have been brainwashed into believing the lunatic rantings of a Cindy Sheehan or a Maureen Dowd.

I love the way people jump to conclusions. Crockett, the solution is too obvious to have to spell it out to you. Sheila, if Islam preaches any of the same "values" they are applied only to other Muslims. Their "tolerance" of others comes with a hefty price tag. It's just against the law here to do that.

I wouldn't say they're all bad, but there sure is a huge majority of them who quietly condone the extremes of the others.

When Eric Rudolph was on the run from authorities in the Carolinas, those that were sypathetic to his cause left food, clothing and toiletries in black plastic bags at the end of their driveways in the areas he was known to be hiding. (Google it if you don't believe me.)

That was the psycho wing of the Christian, right-to-life movement. I know some of the readers here are Christian, yet do you remember a single comment coming from your pulpits denouncing the killing of people in the name of G-d? Honestly, I can say that my corner of southern Calif. was really far removed from the wilds of the South and the caves he was hiding in. But I do wonder, how many of my neighbors would support someone like that, or his cause.

Just to make sure I appease the "Apples v. Mangos" crowd, I am saying that killing someone in the name of your chosen deity is A Bad Thing. You are not a civilized person when you do this, whether you do it with a bolt-action rifle from some bushes through a kitchen window, or a 737.

I live in Atlanta, and Rudolph has very few fans here. The life sentence he got was not very popular either, most folks I know on the right wanted the bastard to fry.

Jay, I won't argue with you that there are far too many people who put loyalty to their community above the lives of others.

But that report is short. Within those paltry nine lines there is far too little information for you to know that only thing the Lodi Muslim community cared about was that there had been an informer. When you read that sort of wild claim on Kos, you ridicule the writer. What's sauce for the goose...

And do Muslims never turn in their own? Who was it who recognized the photograph of one of the failed London bombers - and told the police who he was and where to find him? His parents.

Well, Christians aren't blowing themselves up outside of restuarants or on buses. Can't say the same for certain other religious groups, though.

As far as I know, Islam preaches many of the same values as Christianity, after all Islam is to Christianity as Christianity is to Judaism. In fact, historically Islam has been far more tolerant of other religions, and more than that it fostered the development of science and technology at a time when such things were looked upon with suspicion by the catholic church. (Numerous examples, though Spain between the 9th and the 16 Centuries is probably one of the most striking)

The Islam with which you all take issue with today is a small offshoot, known variously as Salafism or fundamentalism. It seeks to return to a purer faith, a less 'secular' or 'liberal' Islam, that of the Salaf. The Salaf are the progenitors of the faith, the apolstles if you like, who surrounded Mohammed.

In this respect it mirrors the fundamentalist movement here in the US in the 1920s and 1930s, where conservatives in the 'big tent' of the protestant faith split off and sought to purify their religion of 'liberalism'. Unfortunately the 'liberalism' in both cases amounted to tolerance and acceptance, and what was left was and divisive and narrow-minded doctrine. A rigid and austere religion that taught blind unquestioning faith over reason and logic and also seemed obsessed with apocalyptic visions; alternating between fire and brimstone damnation and promises of sweetness (virgins anyone?) in the paradise hereafter. For most intelligent and well educated people this sort of faith is unappealing, unfortunately it seems to resonate all to well with the dispossessed, disaffected or simply the deranged.

Ed, what is going on here? Come on guy, even you know the difference between "not protecting" and "destroy". eg The UN didn't protect the Tutsis in Rawanda. The Hutus destroyed the Tustis. Mark the difference, and take back what you said about Cindy, you might not like her ( I certainly don't) but misrepresenting what she said (oh alright, just plain lying actually)is very naughty. It makes you look really stupid too.

Freedom to be whatever faith you care to be depends upon all persons of all faiths to support that freedom.

In general, only laws that put Christians in direct conflict wiht their faith (i.e. the Christians who hid Jews during Nazi occupation) should be ignored. I have no duty as a matter of faith to protect a violent criminal from the Law.

I would hoppe that the majority of the Muslims in our nation would agree, but I'm not yet convinced.

MunDane,
Yes, I do remember pastors saying from the pulpit, that bombing an abortion clinic was a terrible, and sinful thing. And that it was made even more wrong when people said it was in God's name.
Eric Rudoplh, btw, is an athiest.
Crockett,
So, reading Korn's blog makes you smarter than Ed? That isn't the only thing Sheehan has said that can be taken anti-semitic, and her supporters back Palestine ascendancy and the erradication of Israel. And that isn't even counting the Stormfront crowd that is falling in behind her now.

Its pretty easy to determine who benefits from the "don't snitch" rule...

"As far as I know, Islam preaches many of the same values as Christianity, after all Islam is to Christianity as Christianity is to Judaism."

Is that really supposed to mean something, or were you just hoping no one would notice it was nonsense?

McGehee made this point earlier but it's gone over the heads of some here...but in Christianity, there is a process among Christians that does identify false witness. People who for whatever reasons pose amidst Christians, try to identify as Christians but who are not Christians.

Cindy Sheehan is one of those persons. They like to tell everyone about all the works they do, all the churches they attend...they all, in my experience, do pontificate grandly from an egotistical perspective as does Sheehan about their (false) Christian witness.

Because, truthfully, you cannot commit graven actions and be a Christian. Something is not committed there by those who do engage in graven acts, deeds by words or actions otherwise.

Christians do not intend destruction of Jews. Cindy Sheehan's blaming game of Jews/Israel is just her serving her pagan promoters: it's all the hyperbole of self serving, quite human egoism. But it's not from Christ.

You cannot create associations, also, as a few make note of here, between Christianity/Christians and other "religious" practices -- but particularly with Islam -- no more than you can equate Christ with the values not of God, of any other name or type. You can try but there is no basis in principle by which these two areas of belief can be associated.

Islam does not preach, it indoctrinates and demands. Let's see, Mohammed had sexual relationship/s with a child/ren. And thought it was "O.K." Many of his statements are so corrupt that they extend beyond creepy.

after all Islam is to Christianity as Christianity is to Judaism

Crockett is to moron as red is to color.

Islam isn't an extremist religion. It is just at this time there are so many damn extremist muslims. You can goddamn blame on the religion, that is a baseless argument. Do you even know the religion? Go read the Koran. Real Muslims are chastising the extremists just as much as a Christian would chastise a fellow Christian.

Besides, Christianity has a bloody past as well. I don't have enough time now to type out a full essay on Christianity and the violence it was associated with, but maybe I will come back and elaborate.

btw, i am not Muslim. I just think that people who criticize Muslims have little right to. Everything comes and goes. Eventually this "jihad" of sorts by the extremists will come to end, just like this conservative period will end (remember the 70s?). There is nothing wrong with the religion or people, it is the individuals themselves. One started it, now a lot of them want to jump on. Don't blame all muslims.

Name a convert to Islam or a recently more devout Muslim who has become more tolerant of the United States or Israel or non-Muslims.

No Islam... know peace.

Until there is a civil war within Islam, there is no evidence that the so-called "moderates" are even beginning to oppose the violent Koran-quoting Muslims in their midst.

My friend Zarah. Don't be a prat, not every Muslim is against the US. Read the Koran before you start saying how Islam is bad.

Sheila, let me help. Lots of images taken directly from the most authoritative English translation of the Koran, here, here and here.

Yes, Islam needs a civil war.

Also read the National Review's The Jewish-Friendly Koran.

Just read John Hawkins' interview with Robert Spencer, JihadWatch and DhimmiWatch for reports and ignore the self-serving apologetics from the ROP.

"Islam isn't an extremist religion. It is just at this time there are so many damn extremist muslims."

I like people that just go ahead and immediately rebut their own assertions, makes debate so much easier.

"Besides, Christianity has a bloody past as well."

A bloody past, yes, but you see we are talking about the bloody present. Christians have been fairly well behaved for the past century or two.

"I just think that people who criticize Muslims have little right to. Everything comes and goes."

So because history is cyclical, we don't need freedom of speech? You might need to elaborate on this one a bit.

"Eventually this "jihad" of sorts by the extremists will come to end, just like this conservative period will end (remember the 70s?)."

I do remember the 70's, once again, thank you for destroying your own point.

"There is nothing wrong with the religion or people, it is the individuals themselves."

That is one of the stupidest sentences I have ever read, congradulations.

"One started it, now a lot of them want to jump on. Don't blame all muslims."

Nobody is blaming all muslims, I am however wondering which is the "minority of extremists": the passive tolerant branch or the militants.

B Moe, your post just proved your stupidity.

"I like people that just go ahead and immediately rebut their own assertions, makes debate so much easier. "

I never rebutted anything. Islam is not an extremist religion and never was. It just now a lot of Muslims are following the actions of one wierdo. That isn't cause of the religion. They distort Islam for their own causes.

"A bloody past, yes, but you see we are talking about the bloody present. Christians have been fairly well behaved for the past century or two."

Good job, stupid! You just proved my point. A lot of religions go through a point where they are in disagreement-with another religion, people, etc. Christianity has had that point; now Islam is having that point.

"I do remember the 70's, once again, thank you for destroying your own point."

How did I destroy my point? The 70s was a decade of extreme liberalism and the '00s are a year of extreme conservatives. It will past soon, and then the world will right itself once again.

"That is one of the stupidest sentences I have ever read, congradulations."

Nope. I could say that because many Christian attack other people, the religion is violent and dangerous to society. Does that sound right at all? You are the stupidist person I have ever debated with.

"Nobody is blaming all muslims, I am however wondering which is the "minority of extremists": the passive tolerant branch or the militants."

You do blame all the Muslims. All of you conservatives do because you are to stupid to see beyond a few people. And, so you know, it is the passive type. There are 1.3 billion Muslims in the world. so little have chosen to be a militant. Care to argue?

"Islam does not preach, it indoctrinates and demands. Let's see, Mohammed had sexual relationship/s with a child/ren. And thought it was "O.K." Many of his statements are so corrupt that they extend beyond creepy."

http://www.elroy.net/ehr/vchip.html

I think you'll find this interesting. The Bible talks about rape, incest, extra-marital sex, illegitamate children, etc. It reveals the bad side of the Bible. I am planning on looking for more links like this, but for now, this will do :)

"You do blame all the Muslims. All of you conservatives do because you are to stupid to see beyond a few people."

You're very excitable, Sheila. Your hysteria seems to be affecting your judgement.

But perhaps I'm wrong. Care to prove me wrong by retracting the above quote?

Fine. Most of you conservatives are too stupid to see beyond a few people. Happy?

And I am not hysterical, just eager to prove my point

"As far as I know, Islam preaches many of the same values as Christianity, after all Islam is to Christianity as Christianity is to Judaism."
Is that really supposed to mean something, or were you just hoping no one would notice it was nonsense?
-B Moe"

"after all Islam is to Christianity as Christianity is to Judaism
Crockett is to moron as red is to color.
Jeff Blogworthy"

Look it up tossers. The three religions of Abraham.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/comp_isl_chr.htm
Christianity relies on prophesies in the old testament and uses the judaism as the foundation of christianity. Well, in the same way, Islam recognizes Christ as a holy figure (the second to last great prophet, no less) and Islam builds on the teachings of Christianity and the new testament.
Oh, I’m sorry, now I see you two were right, my comment made no sense at all. What was I thinking?
P.S.
Jeff - your blog? Not so worthy, actually.

P.P.S.
SCSIwuzzy I don't read "Korn's blog" (who is this?) If you want to know about salafism and the origins of violent islamic extremism, try here:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18177

Crockett is right, all three are interrelated. If you don't know that by know (I learned that last year in 8th grade), you are stupid.

Crocket

Gee. Some website says so, so you must be right. Islam is a Satanic counterfeit religion, related to Christianity only in the same sense as many other twisted, pagan imitations. How shocking that false prophets would try to imitate it.

Mohammad does not need Christianity, he claimed to receive direct revelation from Allah - remember? The teachings of Mohammad are antithetical to Christ's in every significant way. The God of Abraham is not Allah. Islam is so vastly different in every way from Christianity the point is not even worthy of discussion. I leave you to stew in ignorance.

God Jeff Blogworthy,

You sound like every other stupid Christian who won't accept a single other religion and thinks that Christianity is the only real religion. Would you say that of Judaism or Hinduism or Paganism, all of which came before Christianity and which Christianity borrowed from? Christianity isn't even original, it just stole ideas from other religions to call its own.

You can read more about this in The Da Vinci Code. However, I am guessing you are one of the Christians who won't read it for fear that the author may be right and your whole religion is based on a lie (which it is).

You are a jackass.

"The Da Vinci Code"

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaahahahahahahahahahah!

Should've figured you were fucking 14 (or whatever - 9th grade). Thanks for coming right out and admitting it. No go away and let the adults with real life experience, jobs, and a full education talk, dear. That's a good girl.

Though, I will agree that while The Da Vinci code is fantastical speculative fiction (not fact, sugar buns), all three of the major religions (as well as every minor one I can think of) are absolutely based on lies and are full of shit.

That, however, doesn't change the fact that I would feel safe walking through Vatican City, but wouldn't in Mecca, for example.

Actually I am 14. I already said that in an earlier post. And I will talk however I want, no matter what my age. If you don't want to hear it, than you can leave.

And for the record, I find that the Da Vinci Code would make more sense than any of the bull in the Bible and your other books. A jew would be married back in those times, if not jesus must have been gay :p And Christianity borrowed a lot from other religions, probably cause they couldn't make up anything interesting enough on there own. The whole religion is based on lies.

You know what, let me change that. Religion in general is bull. All of it. Because if you are from one religion, you will never be open to other idealogies and you will think that your religion is right and all others are wrong. It seems like the majority of Christians are like that, I betting it is the same with other religions..

http://www.religioustolerance.org/intol_bibl.htm

You may claim your religion is tolerant, but I know better than to believe that. And before you say that none of you actually are intolerant, consider this: You blame Muslims for intolerance (every last one of them), yet when your religion preaches the same things, it can't be ALL of you. Hypocrites, aren't we?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/intol_bibl3.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/intol_bibl1.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/intol_bibl2.htm

Sheila,

Christ backed up His words with actions. From the virgin birth, a sinless life, perfect fulfillment of prophecy, performance of miracles, His radical teachings, and His historically documented resurrection - all testified of His divinity.

Christianity is indeed an exclusive religion. Jesus said, "I AM the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by Me."

Jesus calls Himself the Door and says, " 'Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber; but he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the gatekeeper opens; the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.' This figure Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.

"So Jesus again said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before me are thieves and robbers; but the sheep did not heed them. I am the door; if any one enters by me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.'"

What did Mohammad do? Oh yeah - he killed a lot of people and exhorted others to do the same.

I may be a jackass, but I am a jackass who knows the truth. Don't swallow the P.C. lie that all religions are morally equivalent. Heed the truth before it is too late.

One more:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/comp_isl_chr.htm

Jihad: internal, personal struggle towards the attainment of a noble goal. Many incorrectly equate it to "holy war."

Thats it! Im done! Here something for you to think about...

Is that not religious intolerance? No matter what religion it comes from, intolerance is intolerance. You complain when it is the Muslims doing, but no, the Christians are all innocent and good...my ass. in fact, you didn't even adress the intolerance in the Bible. Is that cause you don't want to admit i am right?

And do you have proof to back up your claim that Muhammed "killed a lot of people?" I am guessing you don't. Words with no truth behind them, eh?

"And do you have proof to back up your claim that Muhammed "killed a lot of people?" I am guessing you don't. Words with no truth behind them, eh?"

Sheila is therefore saying that Muhammed did NOT kill a lot of people?

Well, did he or not, yes or no?

I am saying I don't know nor care (it won't change my opinions), but it is stupid to say something without knowing if t is true or not.

I don't know who is brainwashing you Sheila, but sooner or later you are going to have to think for yourself. Half the stuff they teach in public schools is nonsense.

Of course it is true. I am not in the habit of making gratuitous assertions. It is a matter of historical fact that you can find out for yourself by reading a book or looking it up on the Internet. Mohammad waged war and murdered those who refused to convert to his false religion. It is also true that Mohammad married a little girl when she was six years old and he consummated the marriage when she was nine. That's sick - I don't care who you are.

Teachings of Islam

I don't know who is brainwashing you Sheila, but sooner or later you are going to have to think for yourself. Half the stuff they teach in public schools is nonsense.

Umm, first mistake: private school. Private boarding school thta is one of the best in the country. Like you learned any better, smartass.

Mohammad waged war and murdered those who refused to convert to his false religion.

As usual...another idiot Christian who holds everything else in contempt. Aren't you just as bad as Muhammad? Mohammad waged war and murdered those who refused to convert to his false religion. " Umm, all of you Christians have made assumptions about the entire Muslim population and want to kichk them out of your country, bomb Mecca, etc. etc. Just as damn bad.

http://www.elroy.net/ehr/vchip.html

I posted this above, but it still seems relevant. Before you post about Mohammad and his sexual perversions, read this. Look them up and check the authenticity. YOUR site only finds ONE problem with Islam: nods to marry a young woman. If JESUS did that, you would not care. You would say that social customs allowed it back then, wouldn't you? Don't deny it, you hypocrites are the same. Well, maybe they did have different customs in the Middle East. Have a goddamn open mind. It was acceptable then, not now. Do you see every Muslim doing it now ? MY site finds incest, rape, illigetimacy, adultery, erotica, prostitution, explicitness, homosexuality (I don't condemn it, but doesn't GOD?, deflowering a young child, homicide, shall I go on?

I have check these quotes for authenticity. Why don't you address them? I see you avoiding this conversation, all of you. Too afraid to admit your religion is filthy and hypocritical?

I could easily address your questions regarding the Bible, and I would be happy to take the time to do so for someone who is a sincere seeker of the truth. You clearly are not. Good day.

Thanks for proving my point!

Go'night!

i knew it was true we fightin a damn war thats not ours we need to get our troops home NOWW