One has only to look at the track record of CAIR, or to realize the vast # of mosques funded by Saudi Arabia to know that most Muslims are Muslims first, Americans second. If there is a second.

There have been too many anecdotes of people visiting mosques and hearing inflammatory messages to believe that Muslims are trustworthy. And there is nothing in Muslim theology or praxis to show that they mean us well.

Dhimmi=dummi, no matter what country they're in.

You can apply the same scenario to any other group of people. It is only ignorant americans who think that it only applies to a muslim.

Besides, Islam preaches a lot of the same values Christianity preaches. Maybe there are a few extremists, but you can't blame that on the religion. Besides, there are plenty of extremist Christians as well.

In my experience (with Muslims), you're right.

Sheila's "tu quoque" argument doesn't wash. Islamic fundamentalism is of a different order from the fringes of Islamofacism. It is supremacist, exclusive,and in addition to a long bloody history, it has a current bloody present. It is anti-Semitic, anti-American, and does not deserve encouragement on American soil.

Whether or not it's a 'few' extremists, they are doing a lot of damage to our commonweal and those who remain silent are much like the silent Germans of the 1930's -- scared, indifferent, or self-absorbed.

It is a politics of victimhood, resentment and revenge. To relativize this kind of mayhem is to fail to understand the currents of history and geopolitics. Eurabia may happen, but Amerabia is not going to ever be born, despite the current "it's-all-the-same-why-can't-we-just-get-along" theme song.

There are not enough people in your chorus.

Besides, there are plenty of extremist Christians as well.

And when they do wrong, they are generally critricized by other Christians. Christianity doesn't include a moral double-standard that excuses believers while condemning non-believers -- good conduct is good for all, and sin is sin for all.

The lack of genuine condemnation of Islamic terrorism by one of Muslim America's premier advocacy organizations is a strong rebuttal to attempts at moral equivalence. Sorry, Sheila.

As far as I'm concerned, CAIR is more like a modern, PR-sensitive Muslim counterpart to the WW2-era German-American Bund than anything else. There were other German-American organizations back then that didn't embrace Naziism, and even openly opposed it -- but for some reason there don't seem to be such alternatives to CAIR.

So is the point of the posting to foment Patriotic anger towards Muslims based on vast generalizations?

Is Jay leading us somewhere here? Is he saying we should we start thinking about internment or a Holy War against Muslims or are we just supposed to nod and say "yeah, all Muslims are bad, bad Americans and bad, bad people"?

No, Mars, I'm simply pointing out the flagrantly obvious: here is a Muslim community, one that is from all I've read flagrantly average and common for a Muslim community in America, that had terrorists in their midst. And when those terrorists were arrested, their main focus was on finding out who informed on the terrorists -- and I'm sure it wasn't to give them a hearty handshake.

If you can find a single counterexample of a Muslim community actually taking action to report terrorists amongst themselves, or taking some sort of action beyond shouting loudly "you can't blame us for what they did!" and "it's terrible, but it was predictable, because they were provoked," I'll give it prominent play. But I don't think you'll be able to find one. Lord knows I've looked for one.

J.

Muslims "leaders" in this country for the most part are embarrassing. They are more apologists and opportunists than anything else doing more harm to the image of the average Muslim. I put groups like CAIR on the same level as a Pat Robertson.

At least in the UK with the BBC showing the true colors of the Muslim council of Britain, there is finally a debate on who should be representing Muslims in public.

I think he's just pointing out the overall apathy of muslims to terrorism, and their tendency to excuse it and protect it, while only speaking out when it is to behave as victims.

I think that the conclusions people draw are pretty obvious, and the fact that the conclusion is an unfortunate one doesn't change the facts.

In my experience (with Muslims), you're right.

Posted by: -S- at August 29, 2005 01:50 PM

THAT (^^) WAS IN RESPONSE TO JAY TEA...

Besides, Islam preaches a lot of the same values Christianity preaches.

That's like saying that ... gah, ok, I won't invoke Goodwin's law here, let's come up with another one.

Ok, that's like saying Capitalism and Communism share a lot of the same values because they both are forms of government and are meant to create stable societies.

The fact is, an extremist Christian is just really really annoying. An extremist Muslim will blow you up.

Problem is in most Muslim communities, loyalty and close ties are the key. The problem goes back to Muslim "leaders" instead of demanding people out the extremists, they make excuses.

There is the fear factor of trying to do the right thing and causing a backlash within the community they live. But that goes back to "leaders" and the community itself that needs to get out of that mentality.

No really, where are you going with this Jay Tea? I mean, if we can't trust American muslims to side with us, or rather, they already chosen sides against us, what do we do next? Either you ar carping about something that has no real import or you bring this up because you think something should be done about it. So come on, where's your backbone? Tell us what you think should be done.

"Besides, there are plenty of extremist Christians as well."

Timothy McVeigh was one of these I guess.
Key Word: WAS

Cindy Sheehan IS one. From her letter:

"Am I emotional? Yes, my first born was murdered. Am I angry? Yes, he was killed for lies and for a PNAC Neo-Con agenda to benefit Israel. My son joined the Army to protect America, not Israel."

She might as well convert to Islam. They both believe in the destruction of the Jews.

Craig,

Two communists are talking. One asks the other,"Do you know the difference between capitalism and communism?" The other replies, "No, what?"

"Well, in communism man exploits man. In capitalism it's the other way around." LOL.

I got that from a Mad Magazine I read back in the 60s.

Sheehan is your typical moonbat -- it's always blame the Jews.

Unfortunately, because the US believes in appeasing the Islamists or in fighting a politically-correct war, our children or our children's children will either (a) have to fight a very bloody World War IV or (b) have to live in a Muslim nation because the Libs turned our men into prissy metro-sexual cowards who actually have been brainwashed into believing the lunatic rantings of a Cindy Sheehan or a Maureen Dowd.

I love the way people jump to conclusions. Crockett, the solution is too obvious to have to spell it out to you. Sheila, if Islam preaches any of the same "values" they are applied only to other Muslims. Their "tolerance" of others comes with a hefty price tag. It's just against the law here to do that.

I wouldn't say they're all bad, but there sure is a huge majority of them who quietly condone the extremes of the others.

When Eric Rudolph was on the run from authorities in the Carolinas, those that were sypathetic to his cause left food, clothing and toiletries in black plastic bags at the end of their driveways in the areas he was known to be hiding. (Google it if you don't believe me.)

That was the psycho wing of the Christian, right-to-life movement. I know some of the readers here are Christian, yet do you remember a single comment coming from your pulpits denouncing the killing of people in the name of G-d? Honestly, I can say that my corner of southern Calif. was really far removed from the wilds of the South and the caves he was hiding in. But I do wonder, how many of my neighbors would support someone like that, or his cause.

Just to make sure I appease the "Apples v. Mangos" crowd, I am saying that killing someone in the name of your chosen deity is A Bad Thing. You are not a civilized person when you do this, whether you do it with a bolt-action rifle from some bushes through a kitchen window, or a 737.

I live in Atlanta, and Rudolph has very few fans here. The life sentence he got was not very popular either, most folks I know on the right wanted the bastard to fry.

Jay, I won't argue with you that there are far too many people who put loyalty to their community above the lives of others.

But that report is short. Within those paltry nine lines there is far too little information for you to know that only thing the Lodi Muslim community cared about was that there had been an informer. When you read that sort of wild claim on Kos, you ridicule the writer. What's sauce for the goose...

And do Muslims never turn in their own? Who was it who recognized the photograph of one of the failed London bombers - and told the police who he was and where to find him? His parents.

Well, Christians aren't blowing themselves up outside of restuarants or on buses. Can't say the same for certain other religious groups, though.

As far as I know, Islam preaches many of the same values as Christianity, after all Islam is to Christianity as Christianity is to Judaism. In fact, historically Islam has been far more tolerant of other religions, and more than that it fostered the development of science and technology at a time when such things were looked upon with suspicion by the catholic church. (Numerous examples, though Spain between the 9th and the 16 Centuries is probably one of the most striking)

The Islam with which you all take issue with today is a small offshoot, known variously as Salafism or fundamentalism. It seeks to return to a purer faith, a less 'secular' or 'liberal' Islam, that of the Salaf. The Salaf are the progenitors of the faith, the apolstles if you like, who surrounded Mohammed.

In this respect it mirrors the fundamentalist movement here in the US in the 1920s and 1930s, where conservatives in the 'big tent' of the protestant faith split off and sought to purify their religion of 'liberalism'. Unfortunately the 'liberalism' in both cases amounted to tolerance and acceptance, and what was left was and divisive and narrow-minded doctrine. A rigid and austere religion that taught blind unquestioning faith over reason and logic and also seemed obsessed with apocalyptic visions; alternating between fire and brimstone damnation and promises of sweetness (virgins anyone?) in the paradise hereafter. For most intelligent and well educated people this sort of faith is unappealing, unfortunately it seems to resonate all to well with the dispossessed, disaffected or simply the deranged.

Ed, what is going on here? Come on guy, even you know the difference between "not protecting" and "destroy". eg The UN didn't protect the Tutsis in Rawanda. The Hutus destroyed the Tustis. Mark the difference, and take back what you said about Cindy, you might not like her ( I certainly don't) but misrepresenting what she said (oh alright, just plain lying actually)is very naughty. It makes you look really stupid too.

Freedom to be whatever faith you care to be depends upon all persons of all faiths to support that freedom.

In general, only laws that put Christians in direct conflict wiht their faith (i.e. the Christians who hid Jews during Nazi occupation) should be ignored. I have no duty as a matter of faith to protect a violent criminal from the Law.

I would hoppe that the majority of the Muslims in our nation would agree, but I'm not yet convinced.

MunDane,
Yes, I do remember pastors saying from the pulpit, that bombing an abortion clinic was a terrible, and sinful thing. And that it was made even more wrong when people said it was in God's name.
Eric Rudoplh, btw, is an athiest.
Crockett,
So, reading Korn's blog makes you smarter than Ed? That isn't the only thing Sheehan has said that can be taken anti-semitic, and her supporters back Palestine ascendancy and the erradication of Israel. And that isn't even counting the Stormfront crowd that is falling in behind her now.

Its pretty easy to determine who benefits from the "don't snitch" rule...

"As far as I know, Islam preaches many of the same values as Christianity, after all Islam is to Christianity as Christianity is to Judaism."

Is that really supposed to mean something, or were you just hoping no one would notice it was nonsense?

McGehee made this point earlier but it's gone over the heads of some here...but in Christianity, there is a process among Christians that does identify false witness. People who for whatever reasons pose amidst Christians, try to identify as Christians but who are not Christians.

Cindy Sheehan is one of those persons. They like to tell everyone about all the works they do, all the churches they attend...they all, in my experience, do pontificate grandly from an egotistical perspective as does Sheehan about their (false) Christian witness.

Because, truthfully, you cannot commit graven actions and be a Christian. Something is not committed there by those who do engage in graven acts, deeds by words or actions otherwise.

Christians do not intend destruction of Jews. Cindy Sheehan's blaming game of Jews/Israel is just her serving her pagan promoters: it's all the hyperbole of self serving, quite human egoism. But it's not from Christ.

You cannot create associations, also, as a few make note of here, between Christianity/Christians and other "religious" practices -- but particularly with Islam -- no more than you can equate Christ with the values not of God, of any other name or type. You can try but there is no basis in principle by which these two areas of belief can be associated.

Islam does not preach, it indoctrinates and demands. Let's see, Mohammed had sexual relationship/s with a child/ren. And thought it was "O.K." Many of his statements are so corrupt that they extend beyond creepy.

after all Islam is to Christianity as Christianity is to Judaism

Crockett is to moron as red is to color.

Islam isn't an extremist religion. It is just at this time there are so many damn extremist muslims. You can goddamn blame on the religion, that is a baseless argument. Do you even know the religion? Go read the Koran. Real Muslims are chastising the extremists just as much as a Christian would chastise a fellow Christian.

Besides, Christianity has a bloody past as well. I don't have enough time now to type out a full essay on Christianity and the violence it was associated with, but maybe I will come back and elaborate.

btw, i am not Muslim. I just think that people who criticize Muslims have little right to. Everything comes and goes. Eventually this "jihad" of sorts by the extremists will come to end, just like this conservative period will end (remember the 70s?). There is nothing wrong with the religion or people, it is the individuals themselves. One started it, now a lot of them want to jump on. Don't blame all muslims.

Name a convert to Islam or a recently more devout Muslim who has become more tolerant of the United States or Israel or non-Muslims.

No Islam... know peace.

Until there is a civil war within Islam, there is no evidence that the so-called "moderates" are even beginning to oppose the violent Koran-quoting Muslims in their midst.

My friend Zarah. Don't be a prat, not every Muslim is against the US. Read the Koran before you start saying how Islam is bad.

Sheila, let me help. Lots of images taken directly from the most authoritative English translation of the Koran, here, here and here.

Yes, Islam needs a civil war.

Also read the National Review's The Jewish-Friendly Koran.

Just read John Hawkins' interview with Robert Spencer, JihadWatch and DhimmiWatch for reports and ignore the self-serving apologetics from the ROP.