Paul, you nailed it.

The men and women who stayed on post throughout this ordeal deserve a hell of a lot more than a couple of days away. Grab an airliner, load 'em up and take them someplace dry and safe.

I also found the scare quotes around "traumitized" not a little offensive. Being trapped someplace with limited communications, death and destruction all around and, to make things even more fun, armed gangs that would just love a chance to shoot you, probably would qualify as being somewhat traumatic.

>I also found the scare quotes around "traumitized" not a little offensive

Frankly, so did I. -- I understand where the guys are coming from, I just don't think they thought it thru.

I still wish it didn't have to be Vegas... and Nagin, Ebbert, Riley & co. (and the NYT) should just state this plainly - that things have been turned over to the National Guard, their officers are traumatized, and this is for their health - for the health of those who have really, truly lost everything (and not for those that deserted or who are otherwise taking advantage of a "free" trip).

I wish they had seen the signs earlier, and removed those who's spirits were about to break.

That NYT article raises more questions than it answers.

Exhausted New Orleans Police Resting In Atlanta

I believe I read that some of the National Guard just returned home from a tour in Iraq and are being redeployed to New Orleans, albeit at government expense.

Not exactly the same kind of "all expenses paid" vacation.

A reprieve to reassess one's family situation and recharge seems reasonable, in fact, required to maintain a functional entity. Furthermore, if the only places to board are in Las Vegas or Atlanta, then I guess one goes where the carpet is red and the drinks are free. One cannot begrudge them of that.

However, wholesale reallocation of resources may be a bit free-wheeling. I'm reminded of the video of N.O. security personnel "shopping" for shoes while the store was being looted. Is this collection to be rewarded for their "grief"? No doubt some have been traumatized to the point of dysfunction and they will have our sympathies. Others, however, will merely exploit once again. We should not reflexively reward without some sense of merit to winnow out the undeserving. Assets will be sparse in the coming years as this catatrophe will strain even the most philanthropic. And, well, taxes for resurrection will be as popular five years from now as they were two weeks ago before the floods tested the decades of indifference and delay. How judiciously will these monies be allocated in view of the massive expenses piling up like so much ravaged debris?

Clearly, we are too far removed, and perhaps the management is too, to discern who was a trusty soldier worthy of our greatest compassion and who was an opportunistic predator deserving of incarceration.

Maybe it's unfair to relate the two but I harken back to 9/11 in NYC. That was as traumatic an experience as any collection of civil servants can experience and they, collectively, soldiered on. Maybe that was an unreasonable expectation and I still, in my reflection, remain in awe of their dedication and steadfastness - nonetheless, they did it themselves and sought neither reprieve nor recompense. I don't recall vacations doled out to them in the week following the WTC collapse. Maybe they were and it was not publicly reported. True, the victims did not lose their homes, but is there really that much left to a home when a spouse or family member is so brutally destroyed? Is the loss of assets (much of which will be replaced) really that much more impactful compared to the loss of acquaintances and family? While those who lose both are more affected, isn't temporary (or permanent) property loss rather marginal in the grand scheme of things?

The cynic in me still perceives this as a political move by the mayor to score points with the civil servants... points that he'll need come election day when everyone evaluates his performance prior to and under diress.

If nothing else, it gives them a chance to rest while the leadership on New Orleans attempts to get it's act together. It's not exactly like I could complain about anyone taking a little vacation anyway.

Yeah, I'm going to get blasted for this, but I'll say it.

At the risk of appearing to be an insensitive jerk, I disagree. First, their performance as a department was truly abysmal. Protecting and defending is their job and the department as a whole did neither. Second, where's the all expense paid vacations for the 40,000+ who were stuck in the Superdome and Convention Center and left to the mercy of the mob by the very police who are now off with their families to LV or Atlanta? Many of those folks have no idea where their families are for starters and all have no idea if they even have a job left.

Where were the all-expense paid vacations for our Marines after Fallujah? How about after the fall of Baghdad? How about all emergency workers after 9/11.

If this was the plan 6 months from now, okay, I could see it. But not while the dead are still floating.

Fire away.

To follow up the previous comment ...

All over the country you can find T-shirts celebrating the New York Police and Fire departments for their courage on 9-11. Do you think anyone is going to be wearing a shirt celebrating the NOPD?

I live close enough to Chicago that their politics are our main entertainment. But I'll give the mayor and PD this much: Chicago cops would never have walked off the job. Not while there was one person to be rescued. (They also would have shot rioters and rapists right off the bat and Daley would have backed them up.)

The National Guard spokepeople keep saying that they are in a supporting role and that even if there's one NO police officer left, they support him and are not in charge.

I also seriously doubt that in America the National Guard is flying around in helicopters killing people with TVs in their arms. Even in Somalia the military was not allowed to kill people except to save their own lives or someone else's.

In regards to the actual substance of the post, I agree. The NO police can't be effective in their current state so it makes perfect sense to replace them for the time being with officers from other parts of Louisiana. Let them get their own lives in order and then see if they're ready to go back.

Cardinals Nation, The difference between the people in the Super Dome and the NO police is that the NO police have a job to do and need to get back on their feet faster so they can help other people get back on their feet.

...also, Cardinal Nation, the difference between the Marines from Falujah and the NO police is that the soldiers coming back form Iraq aren't coming back to find out that their homes have been wiped out and members of their family are dead.

These NOPD guys are sure getting treated much better than the FDNY survivors on 9/11 did, and what they went through is no less traumatizing. And I dare say they did a helluva better job

Paul sez....

"At present, the NOPD is growing irrelevant."

I thing the NOPD performance to date confirms this all too sadly, but I would delete the word "growing". The contrast with the NYPD/NYFD is stunning, I can't wait for the books.

Cardinals Nation -

You won't get blasted from me, but I have rethought my earlier position and now believe that getting NOPD out of area is a benefit to the National Guard in much the same way not having the French and UN more involved in the invasion in Iraq. Fewer opportunities for screw ups and turf wars.

As for Mayor Nagin's judgment? Who cares, he's toast. How many trips did he make to the Superdome or Convention Center when it counted? None that I saw. He did crawl out from under his desk for a couple of press conferences. What a joke.

I won't blast Cardinals Nation either, but I will disagree. Yes the police department as a whole (and frankly, the city) has performed abysmally -- but in even the worst agency there are good people, and what these cops have been enduring, right alongside the other victims of this disaster, needs to be taken into due consideration.

Or to put it more briefly, the city let down all of its citizens, including whatever minority of the police force were actually good cops.

Perhaps while the NOPD is partying in Vegas, they will lift a glass to the National Guard?

Let the NOPD have some personal days off to take care of their affairs, family and friends; sure, why not? Send them to Las Vegas, not a chance. What's the point? Las Vegas isn't the place to find emotional support.

Of course, when the honest civil servants find out how incompetent the elected officials are, they may want the guys with the guns far away.

>Second, where's the all expense paid vacations for the 40,000+ who were stuck in the Superdome and Convention Center and left to the mercy of the mob by the very police who are now off with their families to LV or Atlanta?

If they are ready to sign on the dotted line and work in horrific conditions pulling boated corpses from homes and trying to keep the peace maybe they should get a perk too.

Your analogy between people who just worked 7 days without a break (and will do it again) vs people who were passive victims is fatally flawed.

Have to say I disagree with you on this one.

Imagine the videos which are coming showing NOPD officers at the blackjack tables in Vegas while dead bodies are being pulled from mud-filled homes in the rowhouses of New Orleans.

Those videos are coming. And they will make the "police looting"videos pale by comparison.

I feel for the Sgt. that you mentioned in your story. Most of the police department in New Orleans conducted themselves as best as they could given the appaling lack of leadership they have (the emergency generators they had in their radio room, for example, were powered not by easily transportable and obtainable diesel fuel, but by natural gas lines that broke in the storm.)

I also felt for the 240 or so firemen who were killed when the twin towers collapsed.

I didn't see any NYFD or NYPD parties being thrown in Vegas 6 days after the terrorist attacks.

They stayed on the job for MONTHS and MONTHS, sifting through the wreckage, putting their city back together; attending funerals. And that's why we all wear NYFD hats; to show our respect for their dedication and professionalism.

Mayor Nagin has a political blind spot. He has few political skills, zero managerial skills, and would do better to spend his time figuring out how he's going to avoid criminal liability for his malfeasance in office rather than spending scare recovery resources on free trips to Vegas.

I still have the images of the NYPD and FDNY pulling bodies, including THEIR BUDDIES, from the smoldering rubble of the WTC for WEEKS and WEEKS after 9/11. I don't ever recall Rudy Guiliani or those heroic civil servants suggesting a vacation in Las Vegas. Not even Atlantic City. They knew there was a job that needed to be COMPLETED.

Which is the better example of leadership?

People keep talking about a vacation in Vegas. Vegas and Atlanta were identified as places with enough available hotel rooms to accomodate hundreds of police officers without spreading them all over the country. I doubt any of them will be hitting the black jack tables. They'll be taking showers and using the phone to call their insurance agents, find family members, etc.

And, yes, FDNY and Marines and such are tougher than New Orleans PD; that doesn't make it a sound decision to keep a failing and exhausted PD force in place rather than replacing them. And no, I'm certainly not defending the incompetence of New Orleans' mayor.

Vegas is also, with fairly minor string pulling, a really cheap place to stay for a few days, and flights are generally cheap to and from there. In a case like this, I'd say that most of it would be comped.

I think I generally agree w/ all of that Paul.

One thing that I wonder about though. Does No even really exist as a municipality anymore? To what extent? I assume they haven't collected a penny of sales, tourism, or property taxes in over a week. And I assume it won't for some time into the future.

Chris
http://amateureconblog.blogspot.com

Hmmm.

Frankly Paul I disagree with you on this.

There's a lot of different ways to deal with this sort of situation. But sending members of the NOPD to *Las Vegas* isn't one of them.

I imagine when the former residents of New Orleans, currently inhabiting converted sports stadiums and sleeping on cots, hear about members of the NOPD having a blast in Last Vegas at the taxpayers expense, Ray Nagin will need those cops to keep him from getting lynched.

These officers might have had a hard time. Some of them might have done a good job. But overall the entire force should be fired en masse for cause, starting at the very top of the rank structure.

Hmmmm.

I wonder if Ray Nagin is buying votes. Or if he's buying witnesses.

Because, I think we're all on the page on this, there's going to be one f-all of an inquiry and someone is going to end up on the receiving end of a hangman's noose. Either metaphorically, or not.

Right now the only people who would have a comprehensive view of what was going on in New Orleans, as the individual victims would only have a view of what happened to them, would be emergency workers, firefighters and the NOPD.

I expect an inquiry to include testimony from some of the residents of New Orleans. But harshly negative testimony from first-responders could be a death sentence for Ray Nagin and/or his career.

That seems possibly logical.

RE: ed's post (September 5, 2005 07:41 PM)

Egads! You mean, like, a bribe? Has the "Big Easy" ever had one of them thar thingies? I saw it in a movie once but I don't think it really happens.

Maybe it's unfair to relate the two but I harken back to 9/11 in NYC. That was as traumatic an experience as any collection of civil servants can experience and they, collectively, soldiered on.

Yes, it's unfair. The situation in New York was an isolated event, with a conclusion that occurred within hours of its onset. Electricity to the affected area was restored almost immediately. There was not water submerging the city streets. There was communications infrastructure and support from police and firefighters from other areas of the city almost instantly There was no significant lawlessness in the wake of the attacks. Officers were able to rotate off duty and go home to family and their homes if they chose.

There are ENORMOUS differences between 9/11 and Katrina. All of you downgrading the NOPD while propping up the NY or CHI departments are behaving boorishly. Nobody knows how those departments would respond in a similar situation. Thanks to geography and luck, they likely never will.

I agree with Paul.

The situation in New York was an isolated event, with a conclusion that occurred within hours of its onset.

Really? I guess I imagined the fires that burned at the WTC site for over a month, as well as the months-long search and rescue efforts in that hell of a complex.

Nobody knows how those departments would respond in a similar situation. Thanks to geography and luck, they likely never will.

Actually, we do.

The NYPD and FDNY ran TOWARDS the danger on 9/11. They ran INTO the danger. I think we can fairly certain they'd distinguish themselves in a likewise manner in (god forbid) a future emergency

RE: bryan's post (September 5, 2005 09:09 PM)

The commentary is one of relative performance in the context of the catastrophe and not the difference between catastrophes. Scale does make a difference but the overall response, at least from the reportage so far, seems pretty marked.

Officers were able to rotate off duty and go home to family and their homes if they chose.

Now that is a key point. Officers and firemen and other personnel chose not to leave from what I recall. They faced real dangers of toxins, fire, further collapse, and various other real threats knowing brothers/sisters in arms were crushed and killed in the debris. Their experience was every bit as daunting and emotional as the one had by the N.O. servants. Identical? No. But the 9/11 servants had their own set of unique experiences too and leaving the scene for vacation was neither in their plans nor was it suggested by the mayor that they do. Some had to be dragged from the site by observers and colleagues concerned about their stubborn refusals to take breaks.

I'm certain there were members in the N.O. civil service corps that felt and feel the same way. Collectively, however, one feels more inspired by the 9/11 response compared to the N.O. response despite valiant efforts of many in the tragic flood. I also recognize that the civil servants on 9/11 were better prepared and empowered to handle their situation. I don't know how far up the organizational chart one need review to see why the resources were not where they should be in the appropriate numbers and with the appropriate tools. Further investigations will assuredly delineate points of failure. At that point, our apple and orange comparisons will be more fruitful.

All of the arguments cited above for the 9/11 disaster only prove my point.

1. The NYPD and FDNY ran TOWARDS the danger on 9/11. They ran INTO the danger. I think we can fairly certain they'd distinguish themselves in a likewise manner in (god forbid) a future emergency

AND SO DID THE NOPD! But the suggestion that they are somehow derelict in their duty because their city leaders are contemplating this action is frankly bizarre.

2. The commentary is one of relative performance in the context of the catastrophe and not the difference between catastrophes. Scale does make a difference but the overall response, at least from the reportage so far, seems pretty marked.

Sorry, but scale DOES affect response. What you have heard about reportage is only a small picture of what actually occurred. Recall the images immediately following the attacks on the twin towers. There were literally hundreds of backup personnel who swarmed the scene. Heavy equipment worked into the night. Ant-lines of personnel streamed to the wreckage almost instantly. Emergency responders benefitted from having a single point to go to.

Now, contrast that with N.O. Officers worked in pairs, attempting to patrol portions of the city with few automobiles, little communication, limited firepower, and lawlessness threatening everywhere - with no power and no running water for several days. We're talking about a MAJOR METROPOLITAN AREA, not just a few blocks of New York!

3. Some had to be dragged from the site by observers and colleagues concerned about their stubborn refusals to take breaks.

And some in the NOPD paid with their lives, as well. It should be noted AGAIN that this vacation idea did not spring from the officers on the ground, but from higher ups. Seeing the damage done to personal lives in the aftermath of 9/11, perhaps some higher ups should have found more ways to give their personnel time to decompress.

4. Really? I guess I imagined the fires that burned at the WTC site for over a month, as well as the months-long search and rescue efforts in that hell of a complex.

Yes, and you conveniently forgot that the event itself actually stopped soon after the towers fell. The event in NO included flooding that continued for at least 24 hours after the hurricane left, not to mention the events of civic breakdown in terms of looting, lawlessness, and frantic cries for help from all around, or the explosions and fires that burned uncontrolled because there was no way to reach the buildings with firefighting equipment.

Believe me, I don't want to get into a tit-for-tat comparison of the 9/11 and Katrina disasters. But using the suggestion of city leaders as an opportunity to bash dedicated officers who maintained their posts during times of extreme duress and saying that they somehow don't measure up to the valor of NY emergency personnel who had scads of support in the hours after the towers fell is crass.