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Dems Answer to Katrina? More Government of Course

This is simply amazing.... In the wake of one of the most horrific examples of governmental failure ever, we get mind boggling quotes from Democrats....

John D. Podesta, former chief of staff to President Bill Clinton and head of a leading Democratic think tank, says Democrats must start by casting Bush's brand of conservatism -- emphasizing an "ownership society" elevating individualism and private enterprise -- as fundamentally flawed and hostile to society's collective responsibility to help citizens, especially the neediest.

In its place, Podesta says, Democrats must offer an activist, reform-minded government agenda that includes new energy, infrastructure and homeland defense policies.

Katrina "changed the future," said Senate Minority Leader Harry M. Reid (D-Nev.). "Enough is enough: No more Bush-business-as-usual."

OK Let's talk turkey... Who was most affected by this storm? NEWSFLASH: The business owners left town! I was in Memphis 24 hours before the storm hit.

WHO WHO WHO was the most effected? THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE SPENT THEIR WHOLE LIVES DEPENDING ON GOVERNMENT!

The whole welfare state should be on trial here. It was (overwhelmingly) the people who have been taught their whole lives that someone would "give them a check" who gathered like sheep in the Dome waiting for the government to solve their problems. Guess what? Government, predictably, failed them.

Who in their right mind would argue that the answer to these problems is to make people MORE dependent on government? That's insanity in its purest form.

The answer isn't to make poor people more dependent, the answer is to make the poor people more self sufficient! (Amazing I know)

The Democrats don't want an "ownership society." Well, guess what? Car ownership made the difference in how some people survived!

Let's call it like it was... 85% of the people you saw trapped in the Superdome lived in government housing and have for several generations.... Their subsistence is dependent on a getting a government check every month. These people have been taught -by Democrats- that property ownership is overrated... That big government will protect them. Bullshit!

This was brought home by an interview I saw on CNN with a woman airlifted from the Dome to the airport. She was whining that there was a big truck full of water at the airport but the government did not sent enough people to pass the water out. The thought never occurred to her to gather up 2 or 3 people and go see if they could set up a table passing out water to their fellow refugees. She was just sitting in a chair waiting for someone to give her something. She didn't see herself as someone who could change her position in life, she saw herself as a victim. If I were in her position, I'd get some help, find out who was in charge and get the supplies moving. I wouldn't be a victim, I'd instantly become a volunteer. But I'm a horrible white republican male business owner who -you know- likes to own things.

Well guess what? My evil white republican ass is sitting in a comfortable apartment hundreds of miles away from the hell the government dependents endured. While they are whining that nobody is taking care of them, I'm trying to figure out how my business is going to be effected -and yes- how much money I'll make in the next few years. Call me a greedy evil conservative... My family got out safe and sound. -Why?- Because I didn't wait for anyone else to solve my problem. It wasn't race or even so much economic status that made the difference in how people got thru the storm... it was attitude and ability.

The people who took it upon themselves to act got thru this storm (just as they get thru life) easier than the people waiting for government to help them. So what do the Democrats want? Less people "elevating individualism and private enterprise" and more people depending on government... Amazing. Simply freaking amazing.

I apologize, I'm on a true rant... But if this does not prove to you forever that the welfare state cripples people's ability to take care of themselves, then I guess I just can't help you.


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» The Violence Worker! linked with An Ownership Society

» Say Anything linked with Democrats Rail Against Ownership Society

» Wilson Fu Weblog linked with Fish

» Blind Mind's Eye linked with The Democratic "Solution" to Katrina

» blog :: Keith D. Milby linked with Democrats have a Plan

» Jo's Cafe linked with Two Interesting Reads

» dcthornton.com linked with Katrina: The DNC Solution

» Clancy's View linked with Reality Hurts

Comments (74)

Bravo! Rush has been hitti... (Below threshold)
Jo:

Bravo! Rush has been hitting on this point all week -- They way Dems want this country run is exampled in New Orleans -- and if it worked so dang well, why are there any deaths? Because socialims, dependency on the government DOES NOT WORK!!!

I recall a story I saw on Fox of two young boys in MS who instead of sitting there taking hand outs, got up and went and helped the military hand out the water, ice, and MREs. They both said, "this is our community, we have to help." What an example they are to the lady who sat and demanded to be waited on.

Paul, I know are in the thi... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

Paul, I know are in the thick of it there with little time for levity but I wonder what the Dem talking points would have been had this very same federal response to Katrina occurred with one of their own in the White House? Maybe after they created their own scapegoat it still would have been.....more government.

You are 100% correct. I jus... (Below threshold)
Don Bear:

You are 100% correct. I just watched New Orleans Mayor Nagin on Meet the Press. The sound you hear in the background is that of tap dancing. He couldn't bring himself to take any responsibility for anything bad that happened. Just blamed everyone else.

This attitude of victimization and blaming others for your problems is, unfortunately, typical of many people who have grown up being fed this idea by their "leaders". They are doomed to remaining a permanent sub-class in this society. This is what the democrats want.

Disgusting.

This reminds me of one "vic... (Below threshold)
TheEnigma:

This reminds me of one "victim" at the Astrodome. The "victims" REFUSED to wait patiently in line for to recieve their "fee money", resulting in the need for a lock-down. This "victim" began shouting at, not speaking to, the FoxNews reporter, that the people of Houston and Texas were not treating them (the "victims") right. Of course, this "victim" ignored the fact that the "money" being provided did not come from Texas officials and that the lock-down was the result of unruly behavior of those "victims" who REFUSED to abide by the established rules as well as others who attempted to illegally obtain funds by fraudently claiming to be "victims".

This "victim" was in it's early 20s, and was no doubt a "welfare queen" and had probably never word a day in it's life.
******

I lived in the Houston area in the early 70's and had a very good Negro maid. She was always on time, worked deligently and was quick to respond to any requests for additional duties or time. She never complained about the work and was often sought as a maid by others due to her attitude and work ethic. She was never treated as a second class citizen and never acted like one. She had a job and performed her duties to the best of her abilities. Needless to say, when I departed the area, she received an outstanding letter of reference.

One day she related the story of how she tried to get a neigbor to come with her and she could ensure that the woman would find work that day. Her neighbor replied, "Why should I work? The government sends me a check and I don't have to do anything."

Paul, we already know the p... (Below threshold)
Jane:

Paul, we already know the problem. What is the solution?

Paul: You are always articu... (Below threshold)
Old Coot:

Paul: You are always articulate, but especially when you rant. Thank you.

Don't mean to be a nitpicke... (Below threshold)
Don Le Messurier:

Don't mean to be a nitpicker but government is spelled with an N. You did it twice so it sticks out.

A very good post otherwise!

That should read "I choose ... (Below threshold)
natty dark:

That should read "I choose to be a nitpicker at this time, but not identified as always being one. So ..."

Sorry, one of my pet peeves. This chick at work starts off by saying, "I don't mean to be rude, but ..." And then she is rude. As if saying she doesn't mean to be makes it okay. And if she didn't mean to, why did she identify it as such before she even started?

Nitpick all you want. But you did mean to nitpick, just as much as I chose to nitick your comment. Nothing personal.

and effected is spelled wit... (Below threshold)
Phil:

and effected is spelled with an "a" "LOL" Hey I know...you get on a roll and the words just flow, we get the message and a good one it is.

It's just easier being a victim than a doer.

Best tribute on the Net to ... (Below threshold)

Best tribute on the Net to Katrina victims and to 9/11. Well said Paul.

Paul, as usual, you are rig... (Below threshold)
Bill M:

Paul, as usual, you are right on the money. Feel free to rant as much as you want! Your words are dead-on accurate.

Yep, rant or not, you are c... (Below threshold)
Jay:

Yep, rant or not, you are correct.

You evil bastard!... (Below threshold)
Donald:

You evil bastard!

Yep, that about sums it up.... (Below threshold)

Yep, that about sums it up.

This is also why people who... (Below threshold)
JSchuler:

This is also why people who look at the government response to Katrina and say "imagine if this were a dirty bomb" are way off base. With Katrina, anyone who wasn't dependant on the government was able to evacuate, leaving only those who couldn't fend for themselves. If a dirty bomb were to go off, there would be no warning to evacuate the responsible members of society. The result is that there would be organization on the local level. Individual citizens would be helping each other out and it would not descend into chaos as it did in NOLA. Look at what happened with the blackout in the North East. Wide spread looting didn't break out and you didn't have the people who were caught in the subways sitting on their hands waiting for the government to come get them. Even with the widescale break down of infrastructure the character of the American people was enough to maintain control and pull people through. The same would happen with a terrorist attack. Katrina should not be seen as a test of our government's domestic response to a large scale attack.

I think saying that the poo... (Below threshold)
andrew:

I think saying that the poor just need to read Ayn Rand and pull themselves up by the bootstraps oversimplifies the problem just as much as the idea that everyone in poverty is the helpless victim of an uncaring society.

The truth is somewhere in between- neither the liberal or the conservative paradigm explains every case. Referring to a "welfare state" slants the debate in a different direction than the phrase "social safety net" would.

Kudos to Paul-wish I could ... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

Kudos to Paul-wish I could express my thoughts all well.

If there is any good news h... (Below threshold)
CharlieDontSurf:

If there is any good news here, it is that the tragedy has emboldened the left to break cover and show their true nature. Archivists take note...this leftist fodder will be useful in the future!

Hi andrew,I... (Below threshold)
jc:


Hi andrew,

I agree that the truth is somewhere in between, but diagnosing somebody as a victim of society doesn't help at all and 20 or 30 years of affirmative action show that that doesn't help much either.

Nobody in California's history was more oppressed than the Asians, especially Chinese, and now, despite being the targets of reverse discrimination for college admissions, etc., they're the most affluent people in California.

For black Americans it might be a little different since there was a conscience effort to strip them of their identity, but recognizing that doesn't solve the problem. In terms of what we can do to help them I don't think there's anything we can do. They have to find their identity and then help themselves. Maybe the difference between the black situation and the Chinese situation is that politicians and the media never meddled with the Chinese as they found their own identity.

Another thing going on in California is that we get something like 80 cents on the dollar of our federal tax money back, yet we could split off from the U.S. and still contend for the fifth largest economy in the world (we jockey positions every year with Brazil). How do we sustain ourselves despite our federal tax dollars paying subsidies for other states to compete with us (i.e. Vermont dairy subsidies)? Slave labor. Why aren't liberals jumping up and down trying to make things better for Mexican immigrants? Because everyone knows slave labor is necessary to support an economy like California's. They have big giant machines that harvest corn and cotton, but no such machines to pick strawberries or avocados, so what else can we do? Admittedly, their situation is a lot better than real slaves in the south two centuries ago. But if you take the Amtrak from Oakland to Sacramento there are people living in conditions similar to those in the Astrodome (albeit in shacks rather than cots) right now and they've been there for decades.

They have big giant mach... (Below threshold)
JSchuler:

They have big giant machines that harvest corn and cotton, but no such machines to pick strawberries or avocados, so what else can we do?

Build a machine that picks strawberries or avocados perhaps? There used to be no machines capable of picking grapes or oranges, which was the arguement for hiring illegal immigrants, but as it became apparent that cheap labor wasn't cheap enough, these things magically started appearing.

Lest we get off topi... (Below threshold)
jc:


Lest we get off topic, I wasn't trying to argue for immigration, I was trying to show that oppression in America is complex, and not always black and white.

For example, patronization can be oppressive.

I think saying that the ... (Below threshold)

I think saying that the poor just need to read Ayn Rand and pull themselves up by the bootstraps oversimplifies the problem

Telling they can't and that's there need to even try overcomplicates the problem. A large percentage of them can, they are just unwilling, and if they did so would free up money to educate and help those who are unable. Some people will always be poor no matter how much assistance they get, not because they have to be but because they choose to be, maybe not directly but due to making bad choices. They are lost until they change that, and they won't ever change until they are forced to. Our current system encourages them not to and sets an example for future generations to do the same.

Dems Answer to Kat... (Below threshold)
capitano:
Dems Answer to Katrina?

"With the catastrophic failure of state and local government in Louisiana in response to Hurricane Katrina, we -- the Democrat Party -- concede that Socialism has now failed everywhere it has been tried."

Why don't they just call it... (Below threshold)
Matt:

Why don't they just call it Hurricane Bush and be done with it? Some of the gloating in the wake of Katrina has been stomach-churning as it was predictable. The glee with which a terrible natural disaster has been seized as yet another stick with which to bash Bush has been odious.

No one would argue that the relief efforts in the immediate aftermath of the hurricane were not chaotic, slow and unimpressive.

But the blame for that can be laid primarily with the corrupt, shambolic local government in Louisiana as much as with the federal authorities. There was a monumental screw-up when it came to evacuating the area, especially the failure to bus out the poor, black residents of the inner city ghettos. For three days, the powers-that-be seemed to freeze like rabbits in the headlights. The sheer scale of the devastation overwhelmed them.

There have been comparisons with the tsunami in South East Asia. But there are vital differences. A tsunami is a giant flash flood. The waters rise and subside in minutes. A hurricane can hang around for days, dumping billions of gallons of water in one place. One of the storms which laid waste to the east coast of Florida last year took 36 hours to pass.

I managed to get out of Florida on one of the last planes before they closed the airport because of Hurricane Frances. Friends who stayed on said it took up to 72 hours for relief efforts to kick in to full swing.

One of the problems is that when a hurricane approaches the sensible thing to do is move all rescue vehicles, helicopters, heavy equipment, buses, planes and boats as far out of the path of the storm as possible. The downside is that while the vital plant and machinery is undamaged, it takes time to get them back to where they are needed.

All those sneering at the tardy response to Katrina would have been the first to point an accusing finger if all the rescue planes, cranes and automobiles had been left in place in New Orleans and been turned in to scrap matal by the devastating power of the storm.

That would have been George Bush's fault, too, no doubt.

Inevitably, Bush-haters have managed to drag the war in Iraq into it. If only US troops hadn't been in Baghdad they could have been in New Orleans more quickly, they claim. Not true. The Iraq war had zero impact on the relief effort.

The state of Louisiana had 7,000 National Guardsmen to deploy as soon as the roads became passable. What took so long is a question the governor of Louisiana has to answer.

None of this is intended to detract from the awfulness of the situation in New Orleans, nor the hell on earth endured by those trapped in the city as Katrina did her worst.

It's merely an attempt to put in to perspective the pig-ignorant jubilation of some British commentators who can see no further than their own perverse hatred of America, and Bush in particular - even at a time of harrowing human tragedy.

They are certain they know what went wrong and who is to blame, even though they've never had to suffer anything more spectacular than Michael Fish's (UK weather man) 1987 hurricane, which blew down a few trees and crushed a couple of Citroen 2CVs in Hampstead (England).

Bush may not have covered himself in glory last week but this is a time for prayer, for support, for aid, for donations for the unfortunate people of New Orleans. It shouldn't be an excuse for a ghoulish exhibition of pathetic political point scoring.

Thank's for letting me post.

My family got out safe a... (Below threshold)

My family got out safe and sound.

Good. There were 100s of tourists who couldn't get out. Were they also victims of the welfare state?

Because socialims, depen... (Below threshold)

Because socialims, dependency on the government DOES NOT WORK!!!

Socialism works fine in Europe. ALL of Western Europe has better medical care and better educational systems than the U.S.

Some of the gloating in ... (Below threshold)

Some of the gloating in the wake of Katrina

I haven't come across any examples of gloating. Could you give a few links?

If only US troops hadn't... (Below threshold)

If only US troops hadn't been in Baghdad they could have been in New Orleans more quickly, they claim. Not true. The Iraq war had zero impact on the relief effort.

You are mistaken:


Officials: Guard deployment hurt response By ROBERT BURNS
Associated Press Writer
Sep 9, 1:26 PM EDT
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/K/KATRINA_NATIONAL_GUARD?SITE=AZTUS&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

BAY ST. LOUIS, Miss. (AP) -- The deployment of thousands of National Guard troops from Mississippi and Louisiana in Iraq when Hurricane Katrina struck hindered those states' initial storm response, military and civilian officials said Friday.
Lt. Gen. Steven Blum, chief of the National Guard Bureau, said that "arguably" a day or so of response time was lost due to the absence of the Mississippi National Guard's 155th Infantry Brigade and Louisiana's 256th Infantry Brigade, each with thousands of troops in Iraq.Blum said that to replace those units' command and control equipment, he dispatched personnel from Guard division headquarters from Kansas and Minnesota shortly after the storm struck.
Rep. Gene Taylor, D-Miss., whose waterfront home here was washed away in the storm, told reporters that the absence of the deployed Mississippi Guard units made it harder for local officials to coordinate their initial response.
"What you lost was a lot of local knowledge," Taylor said, as well as equipment that could have been used in recovery operations.
"The best equipment went with them, for obvious reasons," especially communications equipment, he added.

Steve J.Social... (Below threshold)
Martin A Knight:

Steve J.

    Socialism works fine in Europe. ALL of Western Europe has better medical care and better educational systems than the U.S.

Care to talk about employment and economic growth? Or are you the only person who hasn't noticed that the socialists in Germany seem to headed for a serious pounding by the more free-market party next week?

As for healthcare, it is obvious you know next to nothing about European healthcare. Have you ever experienced the UK NHS first hand? I didn't think so. Ever heard of six month waiting lists for treatment? No?

It's obvious that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Martin -A couple o... (Below threshold)

Martin -

A couple of facts.
Life Expectancy, Male
United States
74.4

United Kingdom
75.7
Norway
76.2
Italy
76.7
Canada
77.1
Switzerland
77.4
Sweden
77.6

Care to talk about emplo... (Below threshold)

Care to talk about employment

Sure but let's talk about different Presidents. Now, Bush said his tax cuts would create 5-6 million new jobs, right? Let's see what the numbers are:

TOTAL PRIVATE EMPLOYMENT
SEASONALLY ADJUSTED
(IN THOUSANDS)


BUSH 2
JAN 2001 111560
JUL 2005 112004

NET == +444

In comparison, let's look at a President we all agree wasn't very good at economics:

CARTER
JAN 1977 65636
DEC 1980 74563
NET == + 8927

Care to talk about emplo... (Below threshold)

Care to talk about employment and economic growth?

The poverty rate has grown for the last 4 years.

>Good. There were 100s of t... (Below threshold)
Paul:

>Good. There were 100s of tourists who couldn't get out. Were they also victims of the welfare state?

Not at all - they were the part of the other 15%... They truly were victims. --- Well the people victimized by the welfare state for decades were victims too but that was of a failed poltical ideology.

AND FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO COMPLAINING ABOUT MY SPELLING

Blame it on Kevin, he made some changes to the site that broke my spell checker... see don't blame me... I'm a victim.

Not at all - they were t... (Below threshold)

Not at all - they were the part of the other 15%... They truly were victims. --- Well the people victimized by the welfare state for decades were victims too but that was of a failed poltical ideology.

How can you tell the difference?

Life expectency has little ... (Below threshold)
cro:

Life expectency has little to nothing to do with Healthcare and almost everything to do with lifestyle. All you've shown is that we Americans need to walk more.

I've actually had to experience UK healthcare after a fall while working on assignment there. Worst hospital experience possibly imaginable. Stuck in a barracks like hall full of screaming people with little attention paid by the nursing staff. Trust me, you DO NOT want to become sick in Europe.

But hey it's FREE! Well you get what you pay for... and I got every penny's worth in spades!

My wife (until becoming naturalized earlier this year) was Canadian...and she will second the reports on crappy Canadian healthcare. Her sister pays to avoid having to use the national system... it's broke.

But hey if they just spent MORE and had some more govt. administraotrs, I'm sure it'd work.

Well the people victimiz... (Below threshold)

Well the people victimized by the welfare state for decades were victims too but that was of a failed poltical ideology.

The welfare state has decreased the poverty rate among seniors by a very large amount. It has also provided college educations for millions of people, starting with the GI Bill of 1947 (?).

Life expectency has litt... (Below threshold)

Life expectency has little to nothing to do with Healthcare

I disagree.

Well you get what you pa... (Below threshold)

Well you get what you pay for...

We don't. We get screwed:

PER CAPITA HEALTH EXPENDITURES, 2001
Great news! We're number 1!!!!!! (all in US dollars)

United States 4869
Switzerland 3288
Norway 3258
Luxembourg 2900
Canada 2743
Germany 2735
Iceland 2680
France 2588
Denmark 2520
Australia 2504
Netherlands 2455
Belgium 2441

Dude, your numbering crunch... (Below threshold)
Cro:

Dude, your numbering crunching points to nothing....so we pay a bunch. My point was that the system here is better than there. If you haven't experienced it first hand, you're just throwing out meaningless figures.

So all I can say is, "I disagree, thus disproving your assertioons."

My point was that the sy... (Below threshold)

My point was that the system here is better than there.

Prove it.

spurwing -Are you ... (Below threshold)

spurwing -

Are you drunk?

Is this the same Steve J. t... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

Is this the same Steve J. that completely takes over the comments section at JustOneMinute by posting 10 or 20 comments in a row in all the posts?

The same Steve J. that got banned today for threatening to kill President Bush and Vice President Cheney?

Great, I'll just tell all t... (Below threshold)
hope:

Great, I'll just tell all those disabled and elderly people I've been helping at the Austin Convention Center's makeshift shelter that they brought this crap upon themselves for not being self-sufficient enough. I'll mention it to the woman who's been institutionalized twice. And maybe also to the ones who just clearly don't have the intellectual capacity to make out very well in this world.

Sorry for the sarcasm, but I find your post frustrating. Maybe you have alot of firsthand experience with low income, undereducated people. But it doesn't sound like it. I beg you - go volunteer at a shelter and get to know some of these folks. And see whether your condescending "they're just lazy" attitude changes a bit. Because it is terribly condescending.

By the way, go browse healthaffairs.org for research comparing health outcomes, costs, etc of the US and other countries. The US pays more for health care but doesn't have higher overall quality. Someone's personal experience cannot be used to draw general conclusions about comparative quality, unless aggregated in a satsifaction survey, in which case it tells you about people's perceptions of care and not the actual quality.

The same Steve J. that g... (Below threshold)

The same Steve J. that got banned today for threatening to kill President Bush and Vice President Cheney?


Banned by who?

A generational difference i... (Below threshold)
Heptacableguy:

A generational difference in attitude:

Mrs Smith
What a doll. Love her attitude. Where can I send
my "hand up" as she calls it?

http://www.dhermit.com/upload/images/MrsSmith.mov

Mr. Xxxx
40 acres and a mule, the hell you say!
This dude thinks he "deserves" $40K.
Caution: the expletives are not deleted.
This is just as it was in the live broadcast.
http://www.dhermit.com/upload/images/MrXXX.mov

Anybody know this couple? Something tells me that they are not from New Orleans
and that he just ripped off the Red Cross to the tune of $700.

http://www.dhermit.com/upload/images/MrXXX.jpg

Paul, What you are... (Below threshold)
SamIAm:

Paul,

What you are doing is called "blame the victim." It is a way of dealing with tragedy that makes you feel safer in your little comfy blogging chair.

But it doesn't deal with the reality of the situation, of the people in the hostpitals, of the volunteers/workers who stayed to help with generators, infrastructure, records, communications, etc. It doesn't deal with the reality of these same people who tried to leave by foot and were fired on by officers telling them they had to turn back into the anarchy and streets filled with dead and feces.

So I hope you feel better now with your little rant and now feel like the world isn't such a scary place anymore. Then you can get back to the facts of the matter and blog about fixing the failures of our government that are now exposed raw for the world to see.

http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Scarborough-Peters-blast-Bush-9-8-05.mov

Steve JAre you tal... (Below threshold)
Jill:

Steve J

Are you talking about places like France, where 15,000 elderly died from heat?

Yeah. Nice place.

Paul,What ... (Below threshold)
Paul:

Paul,
What you are doing is called "blame the victim." It is a way of dealing with tragedy that makes you feel safer in your little comfy blogging chair.

Nope Nope Nope and BTW Nope.

I am not blaming the victim... I defining who victimized them. They were victims of a failed liberal ideology long before the storm blew thru... the hurricane only exposed it.

I am blaming the liberals who don't give a shit about poor black people and will promise them the world in exchange for political power (votes) but in the end leave them like rats on a sinking ship. THAT is who I'm blaming.

Perhaps you have a problem accepting reality.

I am blaming the liberal... (Below threshold)

I am blaming the liberals who don't give a shit about poor black people

The Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act disprove your claim that liberals don't care about poor black people.

Steve J, thank you for expl... (Below threshold)
Casey:

Steve J, thank you for explaining things to these people in nice simple terms, I just end up frustrated when I try. Your comments were refreshing in this disaster of a post!

1. Paul did not say "Libera... (Below threshold)

1. Paul did not say "Liberals don't care about black people." He said he blamed those liberals who do not care.
2. What some people did fifty years ago does not disprove a claim about different people today. For instance, the fact is that Southern Democrats filibustered the Civil Rights Act- would it be reasonable for me to use that as proof that Democrats today hate black people? No. And it is unreasonable of you to claim that political action (which had Republican support) fifty years ago proves anything about the attitudes of all liberals today.
3. Mary Landrieu was on television this evening saying that it's not Mayor Nagin's fault that he did not use his city's buses to evacuate people because, and I quote, "he can't get his people to work on a sunny day, less alone getting them out of a city in front of a hurricane." Sounds pretty patronizing and ugly to me. But she says that is Bush's fault because he doesn't believe in mass transit.

My aunt is a liberal, and she claims she cares about the poor and underprivileged who cannot care for themselves. She talks about it all the time, and she goes to marches and consciousness raising meetings and donates to liberal causes, and promotes socialism (using badly flawed reasoning)- and yet, when I stayed with her in a hotel once she wanted to get a maid fired because she brought her grand-daughter to work with her and they left a toy in our room. A toy. That little story is completely typical of every liberal I know personally. They are in favor of top down solutions, but care little about the actual poor they come into contact with.


You're right, we need to en... (Below threshold)

You're right, we need to end the vicious cycle of government dependence. Let's start by weaning Republicans from the government teat.

Bush appoints political cronies to key agencies they're completely unqualified to run. The cronies then fail to enforce the regulations their agencies are suposed to uphold, making life very easy for corporations.

The cronies, with help from the Republican-controlled Congress, then dole-out fat no-bid contracts to companies that are also major GOP campaign donors; some of that money gets recycled into Republican campaign coffers, which keeps the cycle going.

See, what you wingnuts fail to understand is that it's not the size of the government, it's how you use it. The Bush Junta and the GOP have shown that they can't use it properly. Worse, they deliberately sabotage it, then point to the damage as "evidence" that government is inefficient.

There's nothing wrong with depending on your government -- when the government is run by a competent President. Too bad we don't have one of those.

I'm waiting for Steve J. to... (Below threshold)
-S-:

I'm waiting for Steve J. to prove his opinions. And statistics.

Statistics are like images in clouds: someone sees a giant hammer, someone sees a pretty bunny, someone sees a cloud. Many people can type and some of what they can type are opinions and "statistics" -- does not substantiate a point any more than me swearing I saw a giant crow yesterday from my office window in the pretty clouds against a blue sky.

A lot of "statistics" mirror what someone wants to find...my point being that it takes far more than a typed list o' "stats" to reflect a reality. At least a reality beyond the typists' expectations.

About other issues (it's disappointing when certain behavioral types make threads all about them and thus, interactions about these issues -- particularly as to socialism and communism in the U.S.):

There's a lot to be said for a certain amount of "blaming the victim" opinion; the very language of that expression sorta' reveals the prejudice by some, that to emphasize personal responsibilty is to be insensitively (as in, "blaming") mistreated, disregarding someone who has been negatively affected by bad conditions ("the victim"). A lot of the destitute (in those shelters and such) are the human result of lack of personal responsibility along the way, in their past, perhaps, or their families' pasts, but the point is, our society is a compassionate one and will and does aid and assist people (many of them, at least) who cannot help themselves. No one suggests not doing so in our democracy.

But it still is not an inherently "bad" thing to try to instruct and educate people in the ways of personal responsibility, regardless of how problematic their conditions are. If only by gradual changes, surviving humans have and should continue to try to examine their own behavior and ask where they can improve, what they could and can do to change their own terms and conditions.

The people who don't survive are the ones who (throughout history) first demand to be rescued and then move into blaming those who haven't fulfilled their expectations. The point is, we're all disappointed and in need at some times in our lives and our democracy does offer assistance if/when someone has social relationships. And, social relationships are necessary for survival because of that.

People who rely not on their own relationships and capabilities, however, to solve their problems, to provide for themselves, what occurs is that they do not work for or establish good social relationships. They've got that fixed thing to rely on, so...and what happens is, times of trouble appear, no one's there to rely on, so, they then blame society, blame "the government," and all.

It's not a case of "blaming the victim" here but of just trying to encourage personal responsibility. The lady who was complaining that her MRE wasn't heated to her satisfaction, while in the Superdome in N.O., turned everyone I know off. It was food, it was free, someone else had gone to a lot of trouble to get that free food to her...and yet she denigrated the end result.

Someone else I read about that remarked that they lived in Alaska and anticipating another earthquake of substantial effects there, the last thing he'd do would be to run into the street and yell about the government. My sentiments, exactly.

I stumbled upon this site d... (Below threshold)
Ollie:

I stumbled upon this site doing a google search for a song I like that has the words "i don't want to be anything other than what i've been lately".

Wizbang was ranked #4, and this blog was ranked 2nd:
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

Have a look

-S-...What strike ... (Below threshold)

-S-...

What strike sme as funny is that so many folks seem to figure that there's some magic level of government involvement that will completely smooth out life and make everything perfect. From what I've seen over the years, the more layers of government you slap on, the slower and less effective it gets. Kind of like pouring grit into the oil system of an engine - you don't get better results by adding more and more of something that doesn't work well in the first place.

JLawson

The Voting Rights Act an... (Below threshold)

The Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act disprove your claim that liberals don't care about poor black people.

Either you're joking or you haven't looked at the actual votes cast for those laws.

Steve J forgets, or never n... (Below threshold)

Steve J forgets, or never new, who championed the CRA, and who voted for it.

Steve J, thank you for e... (Below threshold)

Steve J, thank you for explaining things to these people in nice simple terms, I just end up frustrated when I try. Your comments were refreshing in this disaster of a post!

Posted by: Casey

Your welcome! :-)

For instance, the fact ... (Below threshold)

For instance, the fact is that Southern Democrats filibustered the Civil Rights Act- would it be reasonable for me to use that as proof that Democrats today hate black people? No.

Correct. Those democrats switched over to the Republican party.

But it still is not an i... (Below threshold)

But it still is not an inherently "bad" thing to try to instruct and educate people in the ways of personal responsibility

Fine. Let's start with Bush and Tenet. Bush awarded Tenet the Medal of Freedom. What do you think should be done to correct that?

From what I've seen over... (Below threshold)

From what I've seen over the years, the more layers of government you slap on, the slower and less effective it gets.

Which is why the Democrats opposed putting FEMA under DHS.

S.M. DIXON -You na... (Below threshold)

S.M. DIXON -

You nailed it. Thanx!

No steve j im a a tea to... (Below threshold)

No steve j im a a tea totler i dont drink at all

Posted by: spurwing plover

Maybe you should start! :-)

Either you're joking or ... (Below threshold)

Either you're joking or you haven't looked at the actual votes cast for those laws.

Posted by: McGehee

Clearly YOU haven't.

Voting Rights Act of 1965

U.S. House Vote Total = 328-74
217 Dems - 111 Repubs for passage
U.S. Senate Vote Total = 79-18
49 Dems - 30 Repubs for passage

Civil Rights Act of 1964
U.S. House Vote Total = 290-130
152 Dems - 138 Repubs for passage
U.S. Senate Vote Total = 73-27
46 Dems - 27 Repubs for passage

I love it ... it's sooo cla... (Below threshold)
DJ Felix:

I love it ... it's sooo classic. Someone shows up and posts lots of tiny little snipey posts. Personal responsibility? Great. Bush is evil. The liberal idealogy of socialism failed? Look at Europe, healthcare is free. Dems love minorities during the runup to an election, but leave them to die when it rains. Oh yeah? Look at the civil rights acts ... so on and so forth.

Not everyone can fend for themselves, and those people must be attended to. Nobody is arguing that. The whole point of this post is this. Don't like your situation? Do something to change it. Don't sit around waiting for the government to make your life better. Do something about it.

In 1998, I was a die-hard liberal working at a topless bar hustling pimps, deadbeats, and strippers for cash. I wasn't happy with my situation, and I did something about it. I quit my job at the topless bar, and went to work for $400 a week at a tiny ISP. Now? I make well above the national average in salary, and still don't have a college degree. How? I did something about my own situation. I realized that the Democrats were never going to do anything substantiative to help topless bar DJ's, and did something about it myself. Now I'm an upper middle-class evil white republican who provides for his own family, and doesn't rely on any government assistance.

When I heard refugees were coming to Austin, I went and donated $1000 of diabetic supplies. Why? Because I was compelled to help. I was compelled by my own compassion for those in need, and empowered by my own fortitude and good fortune.

I believe that the victims of this horrible disaster should look at this as an opportunity. As horrible and cold as it may sound, this is an opportunity. An opportunity to start over, and build a new life. We are all here to help, and want everyone to not only recover to where they were before, but to come out better. Stronger. Happier. More self-sufficient. Take this opportunity for help and make a better life. You survived! Consider it a triumph, not a defeat!

Look into your numbers agai... (Below threshold)
Tvex01:

Look into your numbers again- 90% of the senators who opposed the Voting Rights Act were DEMS! Only 2 republican senators voted against the 1965 Voting Rights Act, 17 Dems senators opposed it.

No doubt old blowhards like... (Below threshold)

No doubt old blowhards like strom thurmond or the like

For instance, the fact ... (Below threshold)

For instance, the fact is that Southern Democrats filibustered the Civil Rights Act- would it be reasonable for me to use that as proof that Democrats today hate black people? No.

Correct. Those democrats switched over to the Republican party. -Steve J
So, Sen. Byrd is a Republican?
Steve, your arms must be tired, carrying all this Democrat water today.

::Correct. Those democrats ... (Below threshold)

::Correct. Those democrats (who filibustered the Civil Rights Act) switched over to the Republican party. -Steve J::

You are a liar. Strom Thurmond switched, but that hardly composes the entire group of Democrats who filibustered the Civil Rights Act.

Democrats led an 83 day filibuster against the bill, and Democratic former KKK member and WV senator Robert Byrd filibustered for more than 14 straight hours. He remains a Democrat, who as recently as 2001 has been heard using the 'n' word, without causing so much as an eye blink in his cohorts.
Senator Kennedy voted against the 1957 Civil Rights act pushed forward by Eisenhower. Senator (lyndon) Johnson worked at watering it down so it lacked enforcement.
Albert Gore, Sr. was also opposed to the Civil Rights Act and helped Byrd organize the filibuster.

It was only because of Republican support that it passed. 80 percent of Republicans supported it.
only 60 percent of Democrats did.

Try here:
http://members.tripod.com/~GOPcapitalist/democratrecord.html

Steve J. I yet further proo... (Below threshold)
growler:

Steve J. I yet further proof that the ability to Google is fast becoming a substitute for original thought.

Anyways, what's lost in all this is the good people of Mississippi and Alabama. Where are those legions and why are they not moaning about the federal government nto coming to help fast enough? Well, perhaps it's the fact that as soon as they could after the storm passed, they got up off their asses to survey the damage and start clealing shit up. Help from the feds will surely be appreciated, but they ain't sitting around waiting for it. Nor are they EXPECTING it. A dangerous precedent was set by giving millions to the families of 9/11 victims. Now everyone from New Orleans is going to demand double.

In response to Paul's origi... (Below threshold)
Ollie:

In response to Paul's original statement: What about those people that couldn't help themselves? This has already been asked here, but there's a crucial point that follows that wasn't aired.

Supporters of Paul's argument themselves have admitted there were casualties who (by their definition) could be classified as 'real' or 'acceptable' victims - the people who were not physically able to help themselves: the elderly and tourists have been mentioned, I'd also add: children, infants, the sick, mentally ill.

Are you not (in effect) saying they are acceptable losses (in military terms: "collateral damage") in the pursuit of small, efficient government? Extrapolating this to the general debate over the welfare state, I contend that they are never acceptable and that it is analogous to a safety net in such disrepair it has big holes in it.

The bottom line is: I would rather pay more tax, and yes even tolerate a (perhaps inevitable?) level of inefficiency and dependency, if the outcome is these implied "actual" victims are protected. This is the better outcome. By pushing for a smaller government you must face that a real, practical outcome is that such people are put at significant, real risk. I think this disaster demonstrates that.

The "Ownership society" ideal is admirable and noble in many respects, and certainly has a place in democratic politics, but I believe it is not currently practical in its fullest (or near-fullest) sense. I would rather over-compensate to be sure the risk of harm to those who cannot help themselves is effectively combatted.

I want to finish by qualifying my statement: in disasters like this I think it's a shame we even have this debate. We should just drop all recriminations and judgements and just RESCUE EVERYONE, "welfare dependants" or not. I love freedom of speech, it just feels a bit indecent is all.

Thanks for reading, Ollie

I had to call 911 today bec... (Below threshold)

I had to call 911 today because of a medical emergency at work and George Bush didn't answer the phone... WTF is that?

It's not like I live in Alabama or Mississippi or Florida or someplace that demonstrates competent local government. I live in a Blue State and you know that means I can't trust my Mayor or Governor...

Ollie, I think this disaste... (Below threshold)

Ollie, I think this disaster demonstrates that the larger the government agency, the more inefficient and bloated the response is.
More government is not going to help more of the helpless- it's going to let them fall through the cracks while creating even more of a slave class dependent on government. It's ugly.

Thanks for the reply Deputy... (Below threshold)
Ollie:

Thanks for the reply DeputyHeadmistress. Of course it won't surprise you that I disagree! Here's 2 reasons why:

1) I don't understand how you can say what we've witnessed "demonstrates that the larger the government agency, the more inefficient and bloated the response is".

The US must have one of the "smallest" governments in the western world (when measuring health, education, welfare, etc spending). So in fact what we've witnessed only demonstrates how ineffective a _small_ government is when faced with such a disaster.

It was ineffective at many levels: in preparation, in response and even, at a more fundamental level, at encouraging development of a society that would be able help itself better (to respond to Paul's main point). For over 25 years the US government has followed overwhelmingly right-wing policies since Reagan (be honest - Clinton really did little to change the core tenets of this direction). It doesn't appear that over all these years the poorest demographic of New Orleans have found it an economic atmosphere in which they can better themselves!

Preperation and equipment requires investment. Competent response requires cohesion and (democratically-backed) public responsibility (ownership even!). Small governments strip all this back, crippling itself.

2) You say "More government is not going to help more of the helpless- it's going to let them fall through the cracks". Surely this is contradictory.

It seems clear to me that the smaller the government, the _wider_ the "cracks" are. In fact small governments encourage cracks following the theory that it deters potential welfare dependency.

Plus, if the government isn't there to attempt to help the helpless, who will? I hope you believe that someone should! Fellow citizens? Churches? Philanthropists? Corporations? NGOs?

Yes, of course these groups will help. But how could such small, disparate groups be even half as effective and well-equipped compared to a well-funded, broad, cohesive, executive government? Eg. Who else but government could fund and facilitate adequate infrastructure to protect New Orleans (levees etc)?

If you think government is ineffective, imagine all those private, independent support groups trying provide a combined, comprehensive response? It would be chaos - we're talking major cracks. At least with government there are synergies and knowledge-sharing (dare I say efficiencies?) that can be achieved through improved links across agencies.

Plus I haven't even touched on the fact that, in contrast to private groups, the government is (meant to be) responsible to the public. So cracks that appear in the safety net should in theory be addressed in response to the electorate.

I agree that "government dependency"/welfare abuse is ugly. But at a certain level I still contend it's not nearly as ugly as the sight of people falling through those cracks.

My 2 cents, thanks for letting me post,
Ollie




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