JT,

For another view check out the view from Jeb Bush The Florida Gov. that know a little bit about hurricances.

He is defending FEMA.

"The agency handled disasters in much the same timeliness as Katrina last year, and it was regarded as excellent performance. In fact, last summer they helped Florida deal with no less than four hurricanes. With no change in personnel at the top, now it's being criticized. What has changed since then?"

The point, however, is that a response to something as catastrophic as Katrina shouldn't be similar to responses to the much less catastrophic hurricanes in Florida last year. There needs to be a massive response to a major disaster. It's like saying "well, the government the same to a 5.5 earthquake in So Cal and an 8.8 earthquake in San Francisco...what's wrong with that?"

There's ample evidence that FEMA treated Katrina like just another hurricane, and not like "the Big One". See this Washington Post article...one clear example here is that Alabama got five times as much water for distribution for Louisiana.

FEMA's response to Katrina shouldn't have been similar to past hurricanes...they should have prepared for a major catastrophe. And they didn't do this well.

Llama School:

How exactly should FEMA have known that Katrina
would be the 'Big One'?

One caveat, Jay:

I've read (I can't remember where; sorry) that a Category 4 hurricane would cause the leevees to overflow, not cause breaches in them. Sort of like pouring eight ounces of coffee into a six ounce cup. The breaches should never have occurred.

I see that response in Mississippi isn't criticized, nor in Alabama, but is only criticized when looking at New Orleans (not even elsewhere in Louisiana!).

Oh yea, it must be because of racism, not because those were the only "state and local" officials who were completely incompetent.

The Katrina response should be comparead to the aftermath of Camille in 1969. I didn't live on the Gulf Coast and that time and would be interested in any first hand accounts of the recovery from that storm.

Tob

"1) Override Governor Blanco? Little matter of the law and the Constitution..."

You know, it makes me proud to live in a country where even the President is obligated to live by the law of the land... even if it means idiots like Blanco are allowed to screw up. I guess Bush doesn't get to be as much of a cowboy as people think.

By the predictions from people like Max Mayfield and others...any slow-moving Cat 3 or higher hurricane headed towards N.O. would be BIG trouble. And the response was less than adequate. A brief excerpt from the WaPo article linked above...more in the article:

"By Friday, FEMA's emergency headquarters for Katrina was already running; technically, the agency was at level one, its highest level of alert.

But as the headquarters staff came in, there was a strange sense of inaction, as if "nobody's turning the key to start the engine," said one team leader, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. For his group, Friday was a day to sit around wondering, "Why aren't we treating this as a bigger emergency? Why aren't we doing anything?"

"Why aren't we treating this as a bigger emergency? Why aren't we doing anything?"

Because Governor Blanco is stalling us.

Llama School, what could they have done ahead of time? You're talking about a group that already had the red cross in Baton Rouge waiting for the go-ahead from The Louisiana State Department of [State] Homeland Security (of the state, as if I didn't emphasize it enough) to go into New Orleans by Monday. Before the Hurricaine, it is NOT up to FEMA to do evacuation. FEMA is an organization that is set up to act AFTERWARDS, in the recovery effort. Evacuation is really for the local areas to deal with, since they are the ones who are most affected, and are the ones who BEST know the logistical problems they might encounter.

1: people tend to forget the massive evacuation that WAS undertaken...it was very successful (think of the massive population of the entire region that is now alive)

2: The region was already declared "States of Emergency" BEFORE the Hurricane actually hit

3: The eye of the storm never hit New Orleans, so New Orleans was thought to have "dodged the bullet". Which doesn't make sense as to why THE LSDHS would refuse the red cross access. If they affected area wasn't flooded, why did they still hold them back?

4: The levees that broke were "upgraded" and "maintained". What level of maintenance could have prevented it? Judging by how federal money gets to local officials, and considering the timeline for that to happen, in order for an upgrade to levees, the feds must disperse money at least ten years in advance (it seems).

I'd say more but I'm sick of it.
Sorry

My main beef with the President and FEMA was style, not substance. They did everything they could do in terms of substance, but things like not knowing what all the cable news channels were reporting or playing the guitar gave the appearance of obdurance. That's certainly a forgivable offense, and substance is what's important, right?

In terms of the levee breach I think the president was right that nobody expected it to breach (see fatman's comment), Fox News showed some big barge or something that came loose and hit it like a sledge hammer.

ok fine:
First Responders Urged Not To Respond To Hurricane Impact Areas Unless Dispatched By State, Local Authorities

What does this tell us? It tells us that apparently if State and Local Authorities were the ones dispatching aid and rescue, that they were failing miserably.

"FEMA prepares the nation for all hazards and manages federal response and recovery efforts following any national incident."

Quoting the press release I just posted, again proving that FEMA doesn't do evacuations. They do recovery and response AFTER disasters. To attempt to respond before hand would have been suicide (put response vehicles in the affected areas would place it in the path of the storm).

It also tells us that Henry's search engine works much better than Llamaschool's which only seems to find anti-Bush news. Llamaschool must be using Goregle.

Goregle!

hah! that's a good one.

As a retired structural engineer who has done exhaustive work on bulk liquids retention structures, including dams, dykes and levees; also having audited engineering schematics on the New Orleans levees in the 1994-1996 era, rest assured that federal officials were properly concerned about that situation. The problem was that they were the only ones. We bucked and kicked local officials for years throughout the entire project. The municipality demanded the money, and received millions, but repeatedly, they had more pressing uses for expenditures. The optimal, shear-sloped design for the levee reinforcement was approved in 1995. I tell you truly that in my 40-year career as an engineer, the local authorities in our New Orleans levee project take the prize in the area of callous disregard and their bungling remains notorious to this day. Truly, it was scandalous. Consequently, I find it hard to cast a major portion of blame for this disaster on any other entity than the local representatives of those unfortunate people in New Orleans. The truth is, at least the last three mayors of New Orleans are grossly negligent and in dereliction of duty in regards to repeatedly skimming federal funds allocated for their levee fortification. Allan McIsaac

This is an e-mail to the Corner. I think we will see more of this type of thing in the days ahead. I don't think the NOLA & LA are going to be able to hide the bad spending decisions, pork politics of the state, mismanagement of levee funds and even the corrupt government of the city and state.

Some of these have been documented already. Look for more as the press starts to do some forensic work.

nearly every disaster plan has a section that says "FEMA and other federal resources will be available within 72 to 96 hours;

What about this one?
DHS MASTER PLAN à http://www.dhs.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/NRP_FullText.pdf
The NRP establishes policies, procedures, and
mechanisms for proactive Federal response to
catastrophic events. A catastrophic event is any natural or manmade incident, including terrorism, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or disruption severely affecting the population, infrastructure, environment, economy, national morale, and/or government functions. A catastrophic event could result in sustained national impacts over a prolonged period of time; almost immediately exceeds resources normally available to State, local, tribal, and
private-sector authorities in the impacted area; and
significantly interrupts governmental operations and
emergency services to such an extent that national
security could be threatened. All catastrophic events are
Incidents of National Significance.

Guiding Principles for Proactive Federal Response

Guiding principles for proactive Federal response
include the following:
- The primary mission is to save lives; protect critical infrastructure, property, and the environment;
contain the event; and preserve national security.
- Standard procedures regarding requests for assistance may be expedited or, under extreme circumstances, suspended in the immediate aftermath of an event of catastrophic magnitude.

How exactly should FEMA have known that Katrina
would be the 'Big One'?

Posted by: Radical Centrist

LMFAO!!!!!!!

Urgent Weather Message from NWS New Orleans

WWUS74 KLIX 281550 NPWLIX URGENT - WEATHER MESSAGE
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE NEW ORLEANS LA

1011 AM CDT SUN AUG 28 2005

DEVASTATING DAMAGE EXPECTED

3: The eye of the storm never hit New Orleans, so New Orleans was thought to have "dodged the bullet"

Only by WorldNut readers:

N'Orleans dodges bullet
Storm downgraded to Category 2, flooding traps residents on roofs
Posted: August 29, 2005
12:10 p.m. Eastern
© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46025

Bush strongly encouraged an evacuation of New Orleans before Katrina hit. When I repeatedly see photos of large numbers of "local" buses sitting under water there is no debate, despite all the screaming from the Dems, that on the spot resources were not used for the evacuation of those who needed a way out. When the mayor (and I don't care if he/she is black, white or striped) of New Orleans is doing as much griping on TV about his helplessness from the local Hyatt Hotel (where by the way he is dry and has access to food) as his sodden constituency then I begin to think there is a real lack of innovative leadership in that city. Say what you want to about Bush and FEMA, but at this point it is impossible to deny that good local leadership can truly be very, very important.

2) Get the rescue efforts there faster? Not possible.

3 kids from Duke managed to get there faster.

3 Duke students tell of 'disgraceful' scene

By Ray Gronberg : The Herald-Sun
gronberg@heraldsun.com
Sep 4, 2005 : 9:36 pm ET
http://www.herald-sun.com/durham/4-643298.html
DURHAM -- A trio of Duke University sophomores say they drove to New Orleans late last week, posed as journalists to slip inside the hurricane-soaked city twice, and evacuated seven people who weren't receiving help from authorities.
The group, led by South Carolina native Sonny Byrd, say they also managed to drive all the way to the New Orleans Convention Center, where they encountered scenes early Saturday evening that they say were disgraceful.
"We found it absolutely incredible that the authorities had no way to get there for four or five days, that they didn't go in and help these people, and we made it in a two-wheel-drive Hyundai," said Hans Buder, who made the trip with his roommate Byrd and another student, David Hankla.

3) Pre-position rescue personnel and supplies: WHERE?

Ft. Polk, LA, just one of MANY places.

When I repeatedly see photos of large numbers of "local" buses sitting under water there is no debate, despite all the screaming from the Dems, that on the spot resources were not used for the evacuation of those who needed a way out.

AH, the bus meme never dies in BushWorld.
The part-time drivers for the buses weren't available.

4) Spend more money on flood-prevention programs? They did.

No they didn't. The ACE requests for levee maintanence were seriously cut by this criminal administration:

5) Improve the evacuation plans? That's the responsibility of the state and local officials.

WRONG AGAIN -

Under FEMA's direction, federal and state officials began working on the $1 million Hurricane Pam project in July 2004, when 270 experts gathered in Baton Rouge, La., for an eight-day simulation. The so-called "tabletop" exercise focused planners on a mock hurricane that produced more than 20 inches of rain and 14 tornadoes. The drill included computer graphic simulations projected on large screens of the hurricane slamming directly into New Orleans.
"We designed this to be a worst-case but plausible storm," said Madhu Beriwal, chief executive of Innovative Emergency Management Inc. of Baton Rouge, hired by FEMA to conduct the exercise.
The experts completed their first draft report in December 2004.
The report was designed to be the first step toward producing a comprehensive hurricane response plan, jointly approved and implemented by federal, state and city officials. But a lack of funding prohibited planners from quickly following up on the 2004 simulation.
"Money was not available to do the follow-up," Brown said.

Hurricane simulation predicted 61,290 dead
By RON FOURNIER and TED BRIDIS
Associated Press Writers
Sep 9, 2:08 PM EDT

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/K/KATRINA_WHAT_PLANNERS_FEARED?SITE=AZTUS&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2005-09-09-14-08-42

Steve J:

You keep putting the whole FEMA response in the light of "well, they should have done something more," and never actually manage to tell us what "more" could have been under the US Constitution.

The whole "when the locals get overwhelmed" point is off in a very silly direction. What really happens (and has been planned to happen for a couple of decades now) is that, when the local authorities have a job that's too big, THEY HAVE TO ASK FOR ACTUAL HELP, and they have to say what that help should be.

In this case, all that the Governor of Louisiana had to do was ask, specifically, for a whole stinking LOT of National Guard and Red Cross and Salvation Army and all of the other groups to come in. The technique for doing this is called "faxing and making phone calls from a prearranged list that they have on hand."

She did what's technically called "diddly squat."

In reality, the Governor sat around and had consultations with her legal staff about how much power she'd be giving up if the Feds came in, and how many people were going to have to die so she could force them out of New Orleans. She ACTIVELY ORDERED her state police and National Guard troops to keep assistance organizations out of the city, as witnessed by the Red Cross and Salvation Army (they were ready to go in less than two days after the storm).

As far as supplies and help goes, there was a HUGE amount of the stuff being moved to where it would do some good. Missisippi and Alabama got help less than 24 hours into the disaster. Parts of the Gulf coast got power before the unflooded parts of New Orleans. The Red Cross had kitchens set up in Mississippi on Tuesday after the storm. Federal money was being shuffled into the region before the storm actually hit.

Meanwhile, the Mayor of NO and the Governor of LA are trying, desperately, to get people to leave the city, when many of them are in clean, unflooded neighborhoods with working water systems (and only need power to get things going again).

I'm starting to wonder about the long-term motives of Blanco and Nagin. Who benefits from a completely empty city that doesn't need to be completely empty?

"AH, the bus meme never dies in BushWorld.
The part-time drivers for the buses weren't available."

Wow... So that's supposed to let the locals off the hook just like that??? The NO hurricane evacuation plan called for the city's RTA to provide the needed personnel for a mandatory evacuation. The Ivan "live" exercise identified the need, but nothing was done about it. It would be nice if you exhibited that level of "understanding" towards FEMA.

You keep putting the whole FEMA response in the light of "well, they should have done something more," and never actually manage to tell us what "more" could have been under the US Constitution.

Quit hiding behind the Constitution to defend the criminal Bush.

SteveJ:

"3 kids from Duke managed to get there faster."

Yeah, in one vehicle, two days after the Feds and other assistance showed up, and three days after the roads were cleared for them. It still took them the best part of two days to get into New Orleans.

The money quote about the Superdome: "The evacuation was basically complete by the time they arrived," which is what we've been telling you for a few days.

The other thing you don't mention is that the soldiers and cops keeping people out of New Orleans are under the control of - once again - Governor Blanco and Mayor Nagin.

when the local authorities have a job that's too big, THEY HAVE TO ASK FOR ACTUAL HELP

Here's another FREE CLUE to one who has been severely damaged by the "welfare state" -

Sunday, August 28th
State of Louisiana Emergency Disaster Aid Request:
http://gov.louisiana.gov/Disaster%20Relief%20Request.pdf

"I have determined that this incident will be of such severity and magnitude that effective responses will be beyond the capabilities of the State and the affected local governments.."

It still took them the best part of two days to get into New Orleans.

Funny, they said 20 minutes.

"Quit hiding behind the Constitution to defend the criminal Bush."

...and, of course, if the Feds had done as you're now demanding, you'd be screaming about the dictator criminal Bush.

The NO hurricane evacuation plan called for the city's RTA to provide the needed personnel for a mandatory evacuation.

There is no such plan. The funding was cut so it was never made.

...and, of course, if the Feds had done as you're now demanding, you'd be screaming about the dictator criminal Bush.

Posted by: cirby

And don't try to read minds, either.