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PlameGate - Plame Name No Secret

Prior to Robert Novak's July 14, 2003 article that revealed Valerie Wilson Plame's name and employment at the CIA here association with Joe Wilson was pretty easy to find on the Internet.

  • Who's Who in America [Volume 2 (L-Z)] entry for Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson, IV


    "Copyright (c) 2002 by Reed Elsevier, Inc."
    Appeared in all editions from 1999 to 2005.
  • CPS Corporate & Public Strategy Advisory Group bio of Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson, IV
    He is married to the former Valerie Plame and has two sons and two daughters.
    Cached by Archive.org Feb. 08, 2003 (Still available online)
  • EPIC Iraq Forum 2003 bio of Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson, IV
    He is married to the former Valerie Plame and has four children.
    Dated June 14, 2003, cached by Archive.org Nov. 18, 2004 (Still available online)
  • The Middle East Institute bio of Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson, IV
    He is married to the former Valerie Plame and has two sons and two daughters.
    Copyright 2002, cached by Archive.org July 20, 2003 (Available online until October 1, 2003)

And of course there are the campaign donation records to Al Gore that contained the name of her CIA front company (Brewster-Jennings & Assoc.), two comprimises of her identity of to foreign nations, and the (after the fact) pictures...

All of which is another long way of saying that if there are indictments Thursday or Friday they will be for perjury, obstruction, or conspiracy - not for Intelligence Identities Protection Act or Espionage Act violations.

Of course, should those indictments come in, they will prove the oldest adage in the DC book, "it's not the crime, it's the cover-up."


(h/t - Free Republic)


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Listed below are links to weblogs that reference PlameGate - Plame Name No Secret:

» Joe's Dartblog linked with It's Not The Conspiracy--It's The Cover-up

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» Conservative Outpost linked with Daily Summary

» Keith D. Milby :: blog linked with Rove, Libby and Speculation

Comments (47)

Her name was never a secret... (Below threshold)
Bob:

Her name was never a secret, nor was it supposed to be. The secret was that she was an undercover agent.

She was an undercove... (Below threshold)
jc:


She was an undercover agent? Bob, you just blew her cover!

No one knows whether she was an undercover agent, a covert operative, a clandestine operative, or any of a variety of things the CIA does. Probably none of the people who might be indicted, or the reporters involved, know either; or at least they didn't when all of this supposedly happened.

Denial isn't just a river i... (Below threshold)
Bob:

Denial isn't just a river in Egypt, jc.

But, for purposes of discussion, let's posit that she had actually been undercover. How do any of Kevin's links "out" her? Being undercover doesn't mean living under a rock and not letting human beings know of your existence--it just means they can't know your real job.

Wizbang is for insomniacs.<... (Below threshold)
Bob:

Wizbang is for insomniacs.

My point is that we ... (Below threshold)
jc:


My point is that we shouldn't speculate on what she did for the CIA. All we have is a letter from "Larry C. Johnson" to congress identifying her as a NOC.

Knowing that she works for the CIA is one thing, but if she is a NOC and he told the world about it I hope they indict "Larry C. Johnson" too.

(Yeah, Wizbang is great for insomniacs, even on the west coast. There's no other blog that I bother to check past midnight.)

If she was undercover, Kevi... (Below threshold)
Bob:

If she was undercover, Kevin's links are irrelevant. And if she wasn't undercover then why have any investigation to begin with? Either way, hopefully we'll find out tomorrow.

I am sure she was also list... (Below threshold)

I am sure she was also listed in the phone book too, what is your point?

shoelover

I can't believe this keeps ... (Below threshold)
Chris:

I can't believe this keeps getting brought up. And "all we have" isn't just a letter from Larry Johnson, we also have a request from the CIA to the Justice Department to investigate the outing of a covert agent. But hey, who's the CIA to know her status? I think the real experts on who's covert and who's not are right wing bloggers.

Hmm. Nowhere in the info yo... (Below threshold)
kemk:

Hmm. Nowhere in the info you provided did I see Mrs Wilson/Ms Plame identified as an employee of the CIA or any other government agency prior to the Novak column.

The fact that she existed, was married and a mother, and employed by Brewster Jennings was not a secret.

The fact that she was employed by the CIA was.

Note: you had better get over to Wikipedia and correct this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonofficial_cover

Well Valerie Plame's identi... (Below threshold)

Well Valerie Plame's identity wasn't a secret to me. I knew it in 1996 because I met her and a bunch of her CIA coworkers. But that's not what is interesting to me.
In the midst of all of this Karl Rove\Valerie Plame controversy I have heard Valerie Plame described as being involved in "WMD counter-proliferation". That's not entirely true however. She and her coworkers were also engaged in spying on Americans inside America.
I know. She called me in spring of 2003 pretending to be with Brewster-Jennings. Following that I got a call from "Gail Heights" at University Services trying to get information. As many of you may
remember, Gail Heights was the alias used by Gao Zhan the Chinese scholar who was convicted of exporting microprocessors to Communist
China. This was just one of many attempts by Valerie Plame and her colleagues to get inside my life.
For a lot more information, see my website at:
http://www.tomchristianonline.com/

Tom Christian
Weston, FL

Chris falls back on that oh... (Below threshold)
JD:

Chris falls back on that oh so tired mantra that there has to have been a crime because there is an investigation. Had she worked overseas in the preceeding five years? Not from what I have seen. Was the CIA actively attempting to conceal her identity? Not from what I have seen. Did the alleged leaker know that she was allegedly an operative, not just an employee? Not from what I have seen.

Tom, adjust your <a href="h... (Below threshold)
kemk:

Tom, adjust your AFDB to block both incoming mind control rays and outgoing blog whoring spam.

Nothing in your post shows ... (Below threshold)

Nothing in your post shows that Plame was publicly known to be a covert CIA operative, as others have noted above.

The link between Plame and the CIA was first published by Novak, with Cheney's advice and encouragement. Novak knew when he killed a career and perhaps some of her operatives in July that he was publishing information that should not be made public. He would be talking out of both sides of his mouth in prison now if he had not quickly decided to cooperate with the Special Prosecutor. Smart move for a lead-headed dumb-ass.

Rove is in do-do over his head now, and that makes it hard for him to talk. So, Big George is trying to make his own decisions. Not good. His first big decision was finding someone qualified to fill O'Connor's "vacancy" and he blew that big time. Miers has withdrawn herself from consideration, and Big George has quietly called in Dan Quayle - his half brother - for spelling and public speaking advice.

This administration is done. Stick a fork in it.

I suspect that none of this is news to you. If it is, you've been out to lunch way too long.

The good news is that the Dems have nothing going for them, and won't have anything going for them for at least another century. Reagan killed that party when he busted unions.

Instead of trying to prop up an administration with no spine, it might be better to start looking ahead to '08. The trick is to find someone with an IQ larger than his shoe size, and who won't turn out to be like "stink on The Ugly" after the third day.

Smile:Your, er, um... (Below threshold)
Mr. F.:

Smile:

Your, er, um, analysis is not only factually wrong/incorrect it also contains so much rhetorical 'do-do'—to borrow a phrase from you.

Novak did not publish Plame's name with Cheney's encourgement and advice; it was, perhaps/allegedly, Scooter Libby who leaked her name, not Cheney himself. And yes, that's a very important distinction to make because Cheney does not appear to be directly or even indirectly linked (other than to Libby working in his office) to any leak of Plame's name.

As to your other analysis, it's all so much "look at me, aren't I clever?!" speculative nonsense and gibberish. If you're paying any kind of attention, which apparently you're not, you'd know that the GOP silent frontrunner for '08 is Condi. And that means Hillary The Horrible and the DNC is in deeper 'do-do' than you could ever possibly imagine. Look at it this way: Think your loss was bad in '04? Just wait until '08 if Condi's on the ticket...

JDPlease quote the... (Below threshold)
Chris:

JD

Please quote the part of my post where I said there has to be a crime because there's an investigation. I said nothing of the kind. What I did say was that it's ridiculous to ask Fitzgerald to report on what crimes were committed before he conducts his investigation. The two points aren't even in the same ballpark. And what's all this "Not from what I have seen"? Please enlighten us with what you have seen, other than a bunch of speculation on Internet blogs. Plame didn't serve overseas in the last five years? Where was she, exactly? Let's say, oh, March of 1999. Where was she then? I assume you know, from what you've seen.

And how can you say the leaker didn't know she was covert, when you don't even know who the leaker is?

I can't say she was covert, because I don't have access to your many top secret sources. I do know that the CIA declared her as covert when they filed their complaint. The only contradiction to that comes from a bunch of bloggers who say "Not from what I have seen" as if they have any way of knowing. Oh, and one former CIA guy who was gone from the agency for TEN YEARS before the time period in question. You inow how when you leave a job, and still stay in touch with people, after a while your connection to the job becomes more and more tenuous? People mention Phil and Andrea, and then say "Oh, they started after you left." After 10 years, I don't care how many friends this guy has, he's not in a better position than the CIA to determine Valerie Plame's status.

Chris"And "all we ... (Below threshold)
JD:

Chris

"And "all we have" isn't just a letter from Larry Johnson, we also have a request from the CIA to the Justice Department to investigate the outing of a covert agent. But hey, who's the CIA to know her status?"

Apparently I took this quote the wrong way. It seems to imply that because the CIA requested an investigation, there had to have been a crime committed, as they are the ones that get to determine her status. If I took your posting in the wrong manner, my apologies.

However, it is absolutely not my burden of proof to show the negative of the requirements of the statute. It is the duty of those that claim that a covert agent was outed to do so. And in order to do so, amongst other things, they have to show that the CIA was actively attempting to conceal her identity, that she had served in a covert capacity overseas in the last five years, and they have to show that the person alleged to do the leaking knew that she was a covert agent prior to the alleged leaking, amongst other things.

If Fitzgerald proves that there was a violation in regards to this alleged outing, than the individual(s) should be punished according to the law. Period.

You know whats really funny... (Below threshold)
Carl:

You know whats really funny? Just below the headline is the statement:

"Prior to Robert Novak's July 14, 2003 article that revealed Valerie Wilson Plame's name and employment at the CIA here association with Joe Wilson was pretty easy to find on the Internet."

I don't notice anything in the clipping that says "Wife: Valerie Plame works as a NOC at the CIA on WMD counter proliferation issues."

It simply states her name. This is about the poorest line of reasoning I have EVER seen. This Grand Jury hasn't been going on because people at the White House said "Joe Wilson's wifes name is Valerie Plame", but rather that they disclosed that she worked at the CIA. NOTHING ABOVE REVEALS THAT!

Are you people really that stupid?

This is, quite frankly even one level (at least) stupider than the lie you STILL tell that Joe Wilson said "Dick Cheney sent me to Niger". All you have to do is read the piece from the Times to see that what he actually said was "the CIA told me that someone in Cheney's office wanted answers on this issue". Not even REMOTELY the same thing. Not even close.

And then theres the whole tack you take that him getting sent in the first place was some sort of nepotism. Po-lease! Like Niger is the "garden spot" of the world. Who in the hell would WANT to go to Niger. It isn't exactly a resort you know.

Nepotism? Really? It's nothing at all like picking some freak from the "International Arabian Horse Association" to be head of FEMA because he happened to be Joe Allbaugh's college roommate. Never mind he had ZERO emergency management experience. That worked out just great. At least Wolson had the requisite experience for the trip.

You people would all do the nation a service if you followed in the footsteps of the other religious freak Jim Jones, and start "drinking the Kool Aid" (you know, the OTHER Kool Aid).

How can you possibly believ... (Below threshold)
JEW:

How can you possibly believe Ms. Plame was still covert after checking out Kevin’s link? And if she wasn't covert "NO CRIME".

comprimises of her identity

I don't give a good God dam... (Below threshold)
Carl:

I don't give a good God damn if she was "covert" or "not covert". The fact that she worked for the CIA was Classified information. Aside from putting her life in jeopardy, from some sort of retribution attack/killing, it also put the lives of EVERYONE who worked past or present for Brewster Jennings, the CIA front company that NOBODY denies that she started. It also places at grave risk the lives of foreign CIA assets that worked with or had ANY dealings with Brewster Jennings.

This whole affair was a grave blow to national security, as it demonstartes to foreign nationals who may be inclined to work with our intelligence services (at risk of their life), that there is no guarantee that their identity (and thus their LIFE) will be protected in any way.

The ONLY way to solve that problem, is to hold the people responsible for this accounatable be the Democrats OR Republicans. They should be (VERY) publicly executed if convicted. Treason in a time of war is after all a death penalty offense.

Tom Christian, after skimmi... (Below threshold)
Bob:

Tom Christian, after skimming over your tinfoil-hatistry, I'm left wondering how you managed to catch so many of these spies signing their names at your local public library.

Note ... Carl does not care... (Below threshold)
JD:

Note ... Carl does not care about those pesky little things called facts. I am sure that he is willing to point out exactly what qualifications Ambassador Wilson had in regards to nuclear materials. I am sure Carl is going to point out the statute and laws that indicate that her mere employment by the CIA was classified. As far as Valerie Plame and Brewster Jennings goes, the minute they started donating funds to political campaigns, they ceased being this hidden enclave of spooks, IMHO.

JD, how does donating funds... (Below threshold)
Bob:

JD, how does donating funds to politicians make them any less undercover? For all you know, maybe it was part of their cover. Political donations are public record, after all.

And are you saying that, since her CIA front company donated funds to Democrats, Plame deserved to get outed?

Isn't it illegal for the CI... (Below threshold)
JD:

Isn't it illegal for the CIA to attempt to influence the outcome of a domestic election ?

How can you possibly bel... (Below threshold)
mantis:

How can you possibly believe Ms. Plame was still covert after checking out Kevin’s link? And if she wasn't covert "NO CRIME".

Possibly because I'm skeptical of the source and the reporting. The WaTimes reports:

Mrs. Plame's identity as an undercover CIA officer was first disclosed to Russia in the mid-1990s by a Moscow spy, said officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity....

In a second compromise, officials said a more recent inadvertent disclosure resulted in references to Mrs. Plame in confidential documents sent by the CIA to the U.S. Interests Section of the Swiss Embassy in Havana.

Who? What officials? Whom is the WaTimes talking to? Have we not learned to be skeptical about anonymous officials? Especially when they apparently equivocate thusly:

A second official, however, said the compromises before the news column were not publicized and thus should not affect the investigation of the Plame matter.

Meaning if these "outings" even happened, which remains to be seen, they were not made in public and are probably only known inside the intelligence community, presumably by a small number of people.

In any case, the alleged crime is real if in fact her employment at the CIA was classified (and the "outer" knew that). What the WaTimes, the WaPost, or Santa Claus says about her being outed before makes no difference. They don't get to classify or declassify data or identities. As to whether anyone will be charged with this crime, well, that remains to be seen (tomorrow, according to anonymous sources ;).

For JD:Classified st... (Below threshold)
Carl:

For JD:
Classified status is not a matter of law. It is a matter of govt standards. I know folks like you prefer to see EVERYTHING as a black and white issue, but that simply doesn't cut it.

It is a fact that Plame's status at the CIA WAS classified info.

Or maybe you are willing to deny the right's contention that Cheney telling Libby what she did and where she worked was NOT a violation because (get ready) they both had THE CLEARANCES TO KNOW. If her identity wasn't classified, they why would they need clearances to discuss this?

Maybe you are also denying the existence of the memo addressed in this article (and MANY others)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/20/AR2005072002517_pf.html

As for Wilson's qualifications, you don't need to be a genius to figure out that the guy, according to your OWN evidentiary article above, had been an ambassador to multiple African countries. Why exactly would he need to be an expert in WMD to find out if there was a sale (or attempted sale) of yellowcake from Niger to Iraq. What he needed to have to get the job done was diplomatic contacts in Africa, and he had plenty. You don't need to be a dairy scientist to find out if I bought milk at the store. You just need to look in the fridge. So you're hanging with Brownie-qualified, Wilson-not qualified??? That dog won't hunt son.

As for your "humble opinion" on Brewster Jennings donation to political candidates, you are wrong. Making a donation to a political candidate that you don't support is NOT grounds to blow the cover of a CIA brass plate company. Not in this world or any other.

Stop putting partisan politics over national security.

WOW!JD grasping no... (Below threshold)
Carl:

WOW!

JD grasping not at straws, but the last, lonely straw:

"Isn't it illegal for the CIA to attempt to influence the outcome of a domestic election ?"

Ha, ha, ha, ha. Now THATS funny. Now I know I'm witnessing the

GOP-ocalypse.

Carl : You continue to miss... (Below threshold)
JD:

Carl : You continue to miss the point, but that does not surprise me.

How about you answer the following ...

1. Was the CIA actively attempting to conceal her identity ?

2. Had she been assigned to an overseas covert assignment in the last 5 years ?

3. If we accept your premise that she was a covert operative, did they person that is alleged to have leaked this information know that she was covert ?

Outside of that, your argument is nothing other than you wishing to convict somebody of a crime based on your own standards, not the law as written.

Are you telling me it is legal for the CIA to attempt to actively manipulate domestic elections?

Does Fitzgerald have any fa... (Below threshold)

Does Fitzgerald have any family members who work for the CIA or FBI or some other sensitive assignment that could be used as leverage?

(Okay, just kidding)

JD sez: Chris falls back... (Below threshold)

JD sez: Chris falls back on that oh so tired mantra that there has to have been a crime because there is an investigation. Had she worked overseas in the preceeding five years? Not from what I have seen. Was the CIA actively attempting to conceal her identity? Not from what I have seen. Did the alleged leaker know that she was allegedly an operative, not just an employee? Not from what I have seen.

A more churlish wag would suggest that you might be best served pulling your head from dark orifices and then reporting on whether your perceptual abilities improve somewhat. I'll content myself with saying that I can be quite understandably excused for not caliong you up first thing the next time I want to know about the internal practises of clandestine government organisations. You have provided no reason to think that -- even if such information did exist -- you would be privy to it.

But for those that prefer indirect inferences from known evidence, I'd just refresh their memory as to the fact that the CIA did, for some reason or another, make a referral.

Cheers,

JD sez: And in order to ... (Below threshold)

JD sez: And in order to do so, amongst other things, they have to show that the CIA was actively attempting to conceal her identity, that she had served in a covert capacity overseas in the last five years...

And they're going to do this so that you know about it??? Hate to say it, but if they're any good at "actively attempting to conceal her identity", you (except for some unfortunate acts of the maladministration to smear Joe Wilson) wouldn't know bupkis about it.... Let me know when you figger that part out.

Cheers,

JDThe reason the b... (Below threshold)
Chris:

JD

The reason the burden is on defenders of the White House to prove that Plame wasn't covert is because they're saying she wasn't covert. All I have to go on is the fact that the CIA pressed for an investigation because she was covert. I never claim that she was covert, I only respond to those who use flimsy shreds of evidence to claim that she wasn't. I'm not sure how anyone, including Victoria Toensing, can claim to know what she did in the last five years. People are claiming she wasn't covert with no knowledge on which to base that claim. It becomes increasingly clear that all these people have to go on is the fact that her name was known, which totally misses the point.

I don't think the criteria for covert status are as clear as many people are claiming. This is largely the fault of Toensing, who goes on talk shows and deliberately (I believe) makes misleading statements. She was one of the staffers who drafted the law, but she wasn't an elected official, she's a die hard Republican partisan. Just because she says the law means something, doesn't make it so.

For example, she likes to make it seem that one can only be a covert agent if one has lived outside the US in the last five years. But actually, the statute defines a covert agent as a person "who is serving outside the United States or has within the last five years served outside the United States." If Plame regularly traveled outside the US as to engage in covert activities, it can reasonably be argued that she served outside the US. I believe the purpose of this clause is to ensure that the outed agent was working outside the US, which is the only place they're allowed to operate. An example I've used before is a US-based professor who travels regularly to academic conferences overseas while also meeting contacts and gathering information for the CIA. Does the fact that he still resides in the US mean he's not a covert agent?

If it turns out that... (Below threshold)
jc:


If it turns out that she was indeed a NOC: fine, indict Karl Rove and Scooter Libby, if that's what the law is.

But also indict Larry Johnson, everyone in the media, and everyone in this blog thread who said she was a NOC and WASN'T SPECULATING. Arne, Carl, Chris, and others: If you actually know the facts about the nature of her employment at the CIA beyond what Novak revealed I'm sure Fitzgerald would like to question you.

jcHuh?... (Below threshold)
Chris:

jc

Huh?

As wiki defines NCO:<... (Below threshold)
Mr. F.:

As wiki defines NCO:

"Nonofficial cover is a term used in espionage (particularly by the CIA) for an agent or operative who assumes a covert role in an organization without ties to the government he or she is working for.

For example, an agent sent to spy on a foreign country might pose as a journalist, a businessperson, a worker for a non-profit organization (such as a humanitarian group), or an academic. Nonofficial cover is contrasted with official cover, where an agent assumes a position at a seemingly benign department of their government, such as the diplomatic service. If caught, agents under nonofficial cover are usually trained to deny any connection with their government, and do not have many of the protections offered to (for example) accredited diplomats who are caught spying."

So If she was indeed a NCO, and I know of nothing to suggest she was not a NCO other than speculation and semantic word plays by people like David Corn and the debate over what Novak really meant in his original article by "agency operative", then it would be very hard to say that she enjoyed a government protected covert status if she was a NCO. I would then therefore dare to assume that she could be "outed" (as it were) with little legal ramifications on the part of the person(s) who "outed" her. And that's possibly why there will not be any changes under the Intelligence Protection Act or the Espinage Act. And proving as such would be enormously difficult.

If you choose to believe Rove knew of Plame's alleged covert status, then the obvious burden of proof is on the prosecutor to prove as such. But if Plame had been outed previously or she did not enjoy covert status (she seems to be too much of a starlet to be as such; she's far and away too "striking' and 'noticeable'), then Fitzgerald will have to move on to other, lesser charges. But the party of Plame being outed by Bush & Co. would essentially be over.

Dude:Get your head... (Below threshold)

Dude:

Get your head out of your ass. Why haven't your reported the executions of the Brewster-Jennings Moscow staff that was setting up the deal to purchase illegal nuclear weapons on the former Soviet black market?

You are not doing your homework. Don't you know that the woman in the Vanity Fair photograph is NOT Valerie Plame but HER cover?

You're the wizbang fool. Dig a little deeper and you'll find the truth.

<a href="http://zacklyright... (Below threshold)
ron:

http://zacklyright.blogspot.com/ Try this site out he appears to have a pretty clear insight on whether she had security identity protection or not.

joe jones:Your tin... (Below threshold)
Mr. F.:

joe jones:

Your tinfoil hat appears to be on the frtiz. Give it a kick or contact your local alien repairman.

RonThat site you l... (Below threshold)
Chris:

Ron

That site you linked to just regurgitates the sane erroneous stuff you can find here. There's nothing clear about it. I knew as soon as he misstated what the Intelligence Identities Protection Act said that he was just another guy reconfiguring what he reads on other blogs.

Chris - Though you would li... (Below threshold)
JD:

Chris - Though you would like the burden of proof to be moved elsewhere, it is not. It is you and the rest of the left that claim she was outed. In order to make that assertion, you must show a multitude of things, including, but not limited to, the fact that she was a covert agent and that the CIA was actively trying to conceal her identity.

How about this scenario ? Novak goes to the CIA and tells them what he is about to run. They do not actively attempt to keep him from running the article, therefore, he goes with it.

Regardless, no matter how many times people make these assertions, they are in fact specfulation. I cannot wait to see what Fitzgerald comes up with. Will be glad to have it over with. I suspect that there will be a couple minor obstruction indictments, but nothing even remotely close to violations of the Intelligence Protections.

Arne : You can now resume your cranial rectal inversion and place your head squarely back into your ass. You can be assured that next time I need advise on anything, I will never call you either.

JD,I will certainly ... (Below threshold)
Carl:

JD,
I will certainly answer your questions, even though you don't seem interested in answering mine. I'll ask a few at the bottom, and if it's not too much trouble, you can answer them for me.


1. Was the CIA actively attempting to conceal her identity ?

Who cares? What do you mean by "actively attempting to conceal"? How exactly does one do that? If by that you mean was it classified info that she worked at the CIA, then the answer would clearly be "Yes". You seem to STILL be hung up on this whole "Identities Protection Act" deal. Do you have explicit information that that will be the charge?

2. Had she been assigned to an overseas covert assignment in the last 5 years ?

How in the hell would I know? If I DID know the answer to that, and I told you, would I not be breaking the law? Also see the answer to "1". Also, at this point, since you seem to be stuck in IPA mode, how do you know that it would be 5 years from today, rather than 5 years from the crime (that would be 7 years in case your math isn't better than your reasoning).

3. If we accept your premise that she was a covert operative, did they person that is alleged to have leaked this information know that she was covert ?

How exactly is it my "premise" that she is currently covert? I NEVER said she was "covert". What I said was that it is CLEAR that the fact that she worked at the CIA was "classified".

*************************************************

Now some questions for you.

1) How exactly does someones name appearing in Whos Who "out" them as a CIA agent if the passage in NO WAY references where the person works? Your logic is tragically flawed here. By this same logic, the person that worked at the DMV would be "breaking the law" to print her name on a drivers liscence.

2) Cheney said on Meet the Press that he didn't have any idea who Wilson was, never heard of him, while simultaneously lying by saying that Wilson claimed he was "sent by Cheney" (Wilson NEVER said that). How exactly could Cheney not know Wilson? Wilson was the acting US Ambassador to Iraq in the runnup to the Gulf War, Cheney was the Secretary of Defense. Was Cheney incompetent or a liar?

3) Why can't you step back from the partisan deal for about two seconds and simply acknowledge the devastating effect this outing has had on the CIA's intelligence gathering ability abroad? I outlined this above, you know, the big picture.

JD,"It is you and th... (Below threshold)
Carl:

JD,
"It is you and the rest of the left that claim she was outed. In order to make that assertion, you must show a multitude of things, including, but not limited to, the fact that she was a covert agent and that the CIA was actively trying to conceal her identity."

Look man, this whole IPA thing is getting really tired. Are you saying that prior to the acts existence, ther was no such thing as "outing a CIA agent". Po-lease.


"I suspect that there will be a couple minor obstruction indictments, but nothing even remotely close to violations of the Intelligence Protections."

Really, then why exactly did Fitz have the FBI out confirming that the neighbors did NOT know that Plame worked at CIA prior to this. Boy are you in for a bad weekend. Are you really going to run with the pitiable "minor obstruction", "technicalities" tack. WOOOOWW! You guys may be in even worse trouble than I thought. Welcome to the GOP-ocalypse my friend. Lay in some popcorn and beer. This will be a hoot.

JD"It is you and t... (Below threshold)
Chris:

JD

"It is you and the rest of the left that claim she was outed"

I've claimed no such thing, as I say repeatedly. And those on the left who do say it are going by the fact that the CIA, who are the most qualified to say if she's covert, say she was covert. The Right keeps yelling "No she wasn't!" So as far as I'm concerned, the burden is on the Right to support their case. It's the Right that claims what the CIA says isn't true. If people are going to make statements like "It was well known on the DC cocktail party circuit that she worked for the CIA," then by all means, produce someone who heard it at a cocktail party. I mean, it was well known, right? Otherwise, where in the world did an assertion like that come from? People on the Right claim to know where she was for the previous five years, what route she took to work, how many people she bragged to about being CIA, so by all means, back it up.

"If people are going to mak... (Below threshold)
Carl:

"If people are going to make statements like "It was well known on the DC cocktail party circuit that she worked for the CIA," then by all means, produce someone who heard it at a cocktail party."

It is pretty amazing that according to these people every single person that lives inside the beltway knew everything about Valerie Plame, and yet not one single soul will come forward and say so. Hmmm. Of course theres a reason for that-its just another absolute lie. These same people of course also say that all the neighbors knew as well. They keep chanting this, in a desperate hope that its true, even though two of the neighbors that were close to the Wilsons said they were stunned by the news. These folks are in a VERY uncomfortable place, so they are in need of spinning up elaborate artificial realities to keep them from going berserk. I can't wait to go to FreeRepublic after the announcement today. Many people there have been claiming that Joe and Valerie Wilson will be indicted. Bawww ha ha ha.

Merry Fitzmas!

Carl 1. I never i... (Below threshold)
JD:

Carl

1. I never indicated that her name being in Who's Who was relevant to this matter, therefore, I shall not take up a position defending that line of reasoning.

2. Cheney could have been wrong, or like with Sen. Edwards, their interaction made no lasting impression on him. Regardless, what Cheney said on MTP has little to no relevance, and I refuse to answer a question given your false choices for answers.

3. I have no partisan blinders on. Unlike you, I am willing to wait for the findings of the prosecutor. However, if you claim that this has had a devastating effect on the CIA, then by all means, demonstrate that for us.

Chris - Andrea Mitchell

Carl - Sorry if I seem to b... (Below threshold)
JD:

Carl - Sorry if I seem to be hung up on the law that is alleged to have been violated. How silly of me.

JDIf your cryptic ... (Below threshold)
Chris:

JD

If your cryptic "Andrea Mitchell" is supposed to be a response to my request to hear from someone who actually heard that Plame was CIA at a DC cocktail party, I think you'll need to source that a little better. I've heard Mitchell make that claim, but not as someone who heard it herself. She's just repeating the "everyone knew" spin. Do you have a quote where she's saying she actually heard it herself?

This is the same Andrea Mitchell who claims that Wilson came on her show and said "Dick Cheney sent me to Africa." Only problem, of course, is that he never said it, on her show or anywhere else.

Funny how everyone on the right hates the MSM until they say something you agree with, then they get referenced everywhere.

Hi JD,I didn't think... (Below threshold)
Carl:

Hi JD,
I didn't think I would get any sort of answers from you.

"However, if you claim that this has had a devastating effect on the CIA, then by all means, demonstrate that for us."

Well, I did that above, but for your convenience I will paste it here. It id really a common sense matter, but then I dealing it to someone that thinks you help poor people by giving money to rich people so...

*****************
\
I don't give a good God damn if she was "covert" or "not covert". The fact that she worked for the CIA was Classified information. Aside from putting her life in jeopardy, from some sort of retribution attack/killing, it also put the lives of EVERYONE who worked past or present for Brewster Jennings, the CIA front company that NOBODY denies that she started. It also places at grave risk the lives of foreign CIA assets that worked with or had ANY dealings with Brewster Jennings.


This whole affair was a grave blow to national security, as it demonstartes to foreign nationals who may be inclined to work with our intelligence services (at risk of their life), that there is no guarantee that their identity (and thus their LIFE) will be protected in any way.

*********************




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