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NBC takes sides in the war on terror -- and it ain't ours

I was just poking around the TV listings, and the description of tonight's E-Ring caught my eye:

New, "Delta Does Detroit", (2005), J.T. journeys to Detroit to handle a delicate hostage crisis after a radical Christian collective assumes control of a mosque and holds its members captive. (Drama).

I thought it was absurd when the bad guys were changed from Islamic extremists to neo-nazis in the movie of "The Sum Of All Fears." But this is obscene. It's a complete inversion of reality. It's cognitive dissonance of epic proportions.

Hollywood's now officially Topsy-Turvy Land. I don't think even the French could surrender and collaborate so thoroughly and completely.

Muslims in a mosque as the innocent victims of psychotic Christian militiamen. Hell, one of them is in prison for going to Iraq as a security contractor, then shot and killed innocent Iraqis as part of his "holy crusade."

This is beyond obscenity, beyond parody, beyond satire. This is perversion, this is subversion, this is submission.

And it gets only better: at 10, Law And Order is featuring a bunch of illegal aliens being smuggled in a truck apparently murdered by Minutemen.

OK, let's get the "it's only entertainment" out of the way. This lineup can NOT be a coincidence, and the message is clear:

Muslims are all innocent victims.
Illegal aliens are also all innocent victims.
The real dangers to society are Christians and the Minutemen.

Black is white. Up is down. Right Is Wrong.


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Listed below are links to weblogs that reference NBC takes sides in the war on terror -- and it ain't ours:

» Say Anything linked with NBC To Smear The Minutemen?

» Clarity & Resolve linked with The Dhimmi Peacock Has Landed

» Plains Feeder linked with US broadcast infrastructure penetrated

» UrbanGrounds linked with NBC’s Law and Order

» Conservative Culture linked with NBC’s real war on terror

» two or three . net linked with NBC's terrorists and murderers

» Stop The ACLU linked with NBC To Portray Minute Men as Murderers

» The Conjecturer linked with What Bias?

Comments (76)

Which is why I don't watch ... (Below threshold)
Mikey:

Which is why I don't watch them.

Where is Eugene McCarthy wh... (Below threshold)
Lew Clark:

Where is Eugene McCarthy when we need him?

Wow. I'm glad I stopped wa... (Below threshold)

Wow. I'm glad I stopped watching e-ring before it got e-tarded.

And really, couldn't they have found somebody less butterfacey to play benjamin bratt's GF? that actress has a funky face...

In the words of Homer J. Si... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

In the words of Homer J. Simpson: "Sweet merciful crap!"

I didn't see it but I am to... (Below threshold)

I didn't see it but I am told the medical show House last night basically was an hour long trashing of Lance Armstrong. Guess he should have known better than go riding with President bush.

Woe to those who call evil ... (Below threshold)

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil. Old Isaiah had that one right.

Woe to them, indeed. A POX upon them!

I'm starting to get pissed ... (Below threshold)
Josh Davenport:

I'm starting to get pissed off again.

All I can say is, this crap is good for the republican party. I was getting ready to walk, now I'm getting ready to fight.

Nothing But Crap.I... (Below threshold)
Alec:

Nothing But Crap.

It's been years since I've found anything I could watch on NBC.

"'Ed' was pretty good," he ... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

"'Ed' was pretty good," he said, trying to find something, anything good to say about NBC since the last "Seinfeld" episode.

NBC sucks. There's no tell... (Below threshold)
snowballs:

NBC sucks. There's no telling how much marketing research they piss away daily, and it's worth exactly dick apparently.

Example - when jackasses like Katie Couric ask someone from the West Wing something like...

"Are you going to tackle the tough issues this season?"

What the hell does that mean exactly? I guess that it means making shit up as they go based on this week's news.

Just look at them all of the sudden pumping SNL behind the scenes bullshit that no one cares about. Here's some marketing research for ya NBC - SNL is still not funny.

I'll give 'em credit with some of their comedies, but other than that, it's just moving pictures with shitty, tired scripting... ...and don't forget the ass load of advertising for the rest of the weak links in their prime time chain.

I love the MSM.... (Below threshold)

I love the MSM.

OK. Contrarian view. E-Ri... (Below threshold)

OK. Contrarian view. E-Ring is a good show, at least for me, since I spent three years in the Puzzle Palace, a/k/a Pentagon.

I like it because it is a fantasy for anyone who's ever served there. It's fun to see a junior Army O-4 do what the Bratt character does, because, let's just say that they typically don't even come close. The kinds of things that happen do occur -- just not not at the Bratt character's grade.

This latest plot perversion looks like wishful thinking on the part of some network suits; i.e. having Christians taking Muslim hostages.

On balance, I'd say cut E-Ring a little slack, because the Major does things that we all wished we could have, and that many of them are the right thing to do.

Something I've rarely seen on network television.

As for the Dick Wolf leviathon, the guy seems to hate Christians and is a love slave for the abortion-on-demand crowd. 'Nuff said.

My prediction on that L&O, ... (Below threshold)
Dr. Reo Symes:

My prediction on that L&O, based on nothing other than watching the promo, is that the Minutemen didn't do the murders. Just from the add, they're being set up too obviously as the 'bad-guy' red herring.

Of course this has nothing to do with the point of the post. (Yes they'll be depicted as 'beyond the pale' sub-literate hicks and not so quasi-racists. The promo made that clear.)

I'm just pointing this out cause I like guessing whodunnit from just a slice of a show. I could ruin every Murder She Wrote for my grandma from watching just the first three minutes.

It's a gift.

It's possible that irony is... (Below threshold)
epador:

It's possible that irony is the key issue here, an intellectual attempt to get folks from all sides to look at the issues from different perspectives.

But there's a reason I gave up on network television a while ago - the hacks trying to sell their views in the scripts are for the most part perverted panderers with morals closer to Bob Guccione and Larry Flynt than they'd like to admit.

Have you noticed that Showt... (Below threshold)
Mirri:

Have you noticed that Showtime has been running Micheal Moore's Farenheit 9/11?

E-ring blows. It'll be gone... (Below threshold)
avaroo:

E-ring blows. It'll be gone shortly. But Law & Order, that makes me sad. Although since Lenny Briscoe left, it just hasn't been the same.

Watching the program - i'm ... (Below threshold)
epador:

Watching the program - i'm home sick with flu and so not worried about getting more nauseated. So far the irony theory seems fairly strong. The "Christian" terrorists look an awful lot like Chechens. Lots of play actually in favor of erasing Posse Commitas.

The old saying ..... Hollyw... (Below threshold)
Elmo:

The old saying ..... Hollywood is high school with money. Ceptin that ain't really accurate. It's high school with crack. A good connection ..... knowing where the party is .... a bottle of bubbly. Shazaam, you're a writer. A producer. A keeper of ideas.

http://www.interieur.gouv.fr/rubriques/b/b10_drogue/cocaine/materielcrack.jpg

Standards? Accuracy? A functioning moral compass? A sense of right and wrong? Utter derangement masked as a small bowl of enlightened mints.

Trouble with the MSM is tha... (Below threshold)
JBrickley:

Trouble with the MSM is that they actually think all conservatives are like this guy - http://www.thekidfrombrooklyn.com/ (Not a work safe link by any means -- watch your volume if you play any of his videos) or the ones from "Deliverance".

Homophobic, Hateful, Angry radical.

Personally, I think the Kid from Brooklyn is a bit nutz, I did find his BatDay video joke to be funny once my ears stopped burning from the constant stream of obscenities!

Typical NYC/NJ Italian with a big mouth and the propensity to let the obscenities fly with zero restraint. Reminds me of an older Joey Buddifuco or Tony Soprano; Badda Bing Badda Boom!

Yet they seem to fear angry strong Americans more then they fear the real enemy. I guess they realize that they themselves are weak and the strong will eventually take over so they feel a need to prejudice everyone against the strong.

Jack Rich,Doesn't ... (Below threshold)
JP:

Jack Rich,

Doesn't Puzzle Palace refer to NSA? In your defense, I did get lost in the Pentagon once. For over an hour.

They need to take all these... (Below threshold)
Omni:

They need to take all these twits with the "America is bad" complex, round them all up, and dump them in some country where things really ARE bad, grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.........

"Black is white. Up is down... (Below threshold)
CharlieDontSurf:

"Black is white. Up is down. Right Is Wrong."

Didn't the bible predict something along those lines?

Let's get a little perspect... (Below threshold)
edmcgon:

Let's get a little perspective folks. While I admit the plot of E-Ring sounds suspiciously anti-Christian, I am reminded of Jim Jones. He was Christian.

History is littered with Christians doing bad things. Let's not get "holier than thou" with our Christianity. A true Christian would "turn the other cheek."

"irony my $ss!" This is wh... (Below threshold)
JAT0:

"irony my $ss!" This is why I stopped watching TV long, long, long ago!

Best line on TV then was: "Ward, weren't your a little rough on the Beaver last night!"

OK, so I go way back. TV is crap! Stop watching it!

I watched the e-ring episod... (Below threshold)
lunacy:

I watched the e-ring episode.

What struck me was that, by comparison with reality, it really did make Islamic terrorists look bad.

I was reminded of Beslam and how stuff like that doesn't happen in our part of the world.

The Christian Holy Warriors were the mirror image of Islamic Mujahadeen, and consequently, seemed a parody.

No matter what religious labels they put on the bad guys in that epidode, it was obvious that they were mujahadeen in sheeps clothing.

Lunacy

I dispute the assertion tha... (Below threshold)

I dispute the assertion that Jim Jones was a Christian.

If he was, he was really, really bad at it.

edmcgon: no, Jim Jones was... (Below threshold)
-S-:

edmcgon: no, Jim Jones was not "Christian." Jim Jones was insane, and if ever there was a good example of what spiritual possession is, I'd say that Jim Jones was it.

Christians -- the real ones -- don't lead people astray and conduce them to commit suicide or murder or any sin of any sort. People who DO do those acts are, to use an internet term here for ease, are "posers." They are souls serving the OTHER interests, not Jesus Christ. But they do so love to lead people astray and violate the presence of Christ...just as they have led you to wrongfully conclude that Jim Jones was "a Christian." That's the game...to mislead whoever they can.

And, speaking of Hollywood ... (Below threshold)
-S-:

And, speaking of Hollywood and posers, I'd say that the plan has included Hollywood throughout the history of "the industry." Moreorless what Elmo wrote (^^).

It's actually, to my view, truly sad to see television trying to be trendy to conservatives...they just have no clue.

Remember the thing with Tom Cruise on Oprah? Even Oprah is now trying to be 'apart' from Cruise, doing the old ratings fetch and dance routine, eager to step away from anyone (in this case, Cruise) who'se indicating a loss of audience confidence. And to think, before that, they were "friends."

The Minutemen-as-murderers thing from Peddler Dick Wolfe is beneath the pail, however. Just disgusting, completely dishonorable.

' I am reminded of Jim Jone... (Below threshold)
ICallMasICM:

' I am reminded of Jim Jones. He was Christian. '

WTF? He was a lunatic heretic. But in his defense, his followers didn't kill anybody else.

In defense of "E-Ring" last... (Below threshold)
Steve L.:

In defense of "E-Ring" last night, I don't think it was some left wing conspiracy to make Christians look bad. I believe it was an attempt to demonstrate (and rightfully so) that *any* religion has fanatics who do things out of a perverted sense of that religion. The show was trying to point out that there are radical Christians who are no more true Christians than the radical Muslims are true Muslims.

Beofr critcizing something, you should make an attempt to be sure about what you are criticizing.

What is this "television" o... (Below threshold)

What is this "television" of which you speak?

I believe it was an atte... (Below threshold)

I believe it was an attempt to demonstrate (and rightfully so) that *any* religion has fanatics who do things out of a perverted sense of that religion.

In other words, pure PC "moral equivalence" crap.

at least they are consisten... (Below threshold)
dries:

at least they are consistent in their bias. most of L&O episodes are based on local, NYC cases, tweaked in politically correct way. thus when a chinese deliveryman was bludgeoned to death by black gang over $12 of food, L&O made killers into irish & italian teens. anothet episode was based on infamous puerto-rican parade of some years ago, when scores of women were sexually assaulted. NBC portraye them as salvadorans, not puerto ricans.
i stopped watching that drivel years ago.

Jim Jones thought of himsel... (Below threshold)
edmcgon:

Jim Jones thought of himself as a Christian, much like Bin Laden thinks of himself as a Muslim.

If you want to see the difference between the two, it is that Christians distance themselves from Jones a lot more quickly than Muslims do from Bin Laden (if they ever do).

Amen, brother.Oops... (Below threshold)

Amen, brother.

Oops...now you'll think I'm a Christian-o-fascist.

-s-"no, Jim Jones ... (Below threshold)
Mark:

-s-

"no, Jim Jones was not "Christian." Jim Jones was insane, and if ever there was a good example of what spiritual possession is, I'd say that Jim Jones was it."

Ah, so one can't be Christian and insane?

I can think of plenty of insane Christians.

Mark,Please list the... (Below threshold)
joe:

Mark,
Please list the Christians that take Jim Jones as their hero.

Take your time.

Then compare to the list of Muslims that celebrate any suicide bombing that kills Americans, Jews, Russians, basically any infidel.

I just wanted you all to kn... (Below threshold)
The Indian:

I just wanted you all to know how disgustingly bigoted you are. Yes, your comments ARE worth of neo-nazis. Christians are always right? Have you ever HEARD of the crusades? History sure repeats itself. Thousands of innocent muslims and jews were slaughtered at the hands of bloodthirsty, carveman-like christians who knew nothing about anything and then were mildly surprised when they discovered the amazing culture they had just annihilated. Now, who is taking advantage of the lower class, discriminating against the immigrant and stereotyping all Arabs or people who don't look like them as terrorists? You. White people. George W. Bush and his neocon right-wing fanaticist christian administration. Have you ever even heard of John Walker Lynn? You know, the guy with the bombs in his shoes? If we had relied merely upon your point of view that all arabs and immigrants are the ones that cause the problems, at least a hundred people would have been blown up at the hands of yes, a white christian man. Fuck you - learn something about reality; the KKK no longer exists.

Joe?How are your c... (Below threshold)
Mark:

Joe?

How are your comments related to mine?

I do believe that Jim Jones... (Below threshold)
epador:

I do believe that Jim Jones's follwers DID murder a few other than their own. How quickly we forget!

I appreciate your concept of posers, -S-, but my problem with organized religions is that one man's poser is another's true zealot. All the major sects I've become familiar with have had periods in time where under the banner of their true beliefs coupled with intolerance to others, torture, thievery and murder if not war were sanctioned events. Not by splinter groups at the fringes, but central authority. Just basic human frailty of mob mentality, lust [for power], greed and pride taking over decent moral values.

I don't decry the good that a strong social value system in a particular religion may impart, but the potential that is too often realized of evil from such an organization gives me pause.

Joe,Just to clarif... (Below threshold)
Mark:

Joe,

Just to clarify: I agree with the point you're making. What puzzles me are people like -s- who feel threatened by Christian whackos. Yes, some are whackos, some are insane. But does that make them any less "Christian?" Says who? Is that written somewhere?

i like... (Below threshold)
jj:

i like

edmcgon, Jim Jones didn't t... (Below threshold)
D. Doré:

edmcgon, Jim Jones didn't think himself to be a Christian. He thought himself to be a Christ:

"Jones separated from the Pentecostals because he would proclaim the Second Coming
himself saying that he was the perfect example of a human possessed with the spirit. He would say:
"I say I am your Savior but don't make me your creator." What Jones succeeded in doing was to
create a religious group with a zeal prevalent during the times of the primitive era, and
incorporating the concerns of today's era: race, class and nuclear holocaust."

He created a cult where he and his followers believed themselves divine, not a Christian Denomination.

I agree with the statement that Muslims do not distance themselves from Bin-Laden very quickly. The reason for that is because unlike Steve L.'s belief:

"I believe it was an attempt to demonstrate (and rightfully so) that *any* religion has fanatics who do things out of a perverted sense of that religion. The show was trying to point out that there are radical Christians who are no more true Christians than the radical Muslims are true Muslims.

Beofr critcizing something, you should make an attempt to be sure about what you are criticizing. - Steve L."

Islam in it's truest form is closer to Bin-Laden's beliefs than to what President Bush has mistakenly defined as a "religion of peace & love". Bin-Laden isn't an extremist... he's a "literalist" when it comes to the Koran. He's only following Mohammad's example.

Mohammad was a killer. He had his followers take human lives with their own hands, as well as having his army wipe out tribes who would not convert.

Here, read the words of the Koran yourself and see what a religion of peace and love it is:

Sura 5 contains the following command:

[Sura 5.51] "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."

Extreme intolerance is commanded in Sura 5:33

[5.33] "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

How about Sura 9:5?

[9.5] "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

Good thing Allah is merciful. I'd hate to see what his wrath is like.

The peace that Sura 2:190-193 shows is a little sobering too with phrases like:

"And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you" [Sura 2:190]

and

"kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers." [Sura 2:191)

and then there's:

"fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah" [Sura 2:193]

So Steve L... I'd ask you to head your own words:

"Beofr critcizing something, you should make an attempt to be sure about what you are criticizing."

When a true follower of Jesus does something wrong, they are doing something wrong. If they kill in the name of Christ they are going against Jesus' own example and His very words:

“Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you” (Matthew 5:44).

“Whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also” (Matthew 5:39).

“Do not judge, lest you be judged” (Matthew 7:1).

“However you want people to treat you, so treat them” (Mat­thew 7:12).

“You shall love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:39).

“This is my commandment that you love one another” (John 15:12, 17).

“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends” (John 15:13).

But if a Muslim kills a Jew or Christian or any person who is not a Muslim, then they are fulfilling the words of Mohammed to a "T".
How can that be considered an "Islamic Extremist"?

Peace through Islam can only be achieved once all have converted to Islam:

"fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah" [Sura 2:193]

Allah akbar

Sheesh,I just love... (Below threshold)
Mark:

Sheesh,

I just love how Christians can be Christians all their lives until they do something wrong. Then the judgmental "Christians" immediately claim the wrong-doer was not from their faith. Its as though a life of Christianity is erased or rewritten as a result of one non-Christian act. And, the revisionism is done by Christian lay people.

They bomb an abortion clinic, and they're no longer "Christian." They feed Kool-aide to the flock, and "they're not Christian, they're insane." Can't one be insane yet still Christian? Is it a religion that discriminates against the infirm?

For what it's worth, i was raised Christian, and am now agnostic.

'I do believe that Jim Jone... (Below threshold)
ICallMasICM:

'I do believe that Jim Jones's follwers DID murder a few other than their own. How quickly we forget!'

According to this they were all his followers.

Wow, this blog sure has a l... (Below threshold)
JEW:

Wow, this blog sure has a lot of responses. I have not been able to keep up with E-Ring and have been recording it on my DVR. I really like(d) the show but since I am about two weeks behind have not seen the above episode.

I did, however, get that feeling in the pit of my stomach last night when I watched the one where his girlfreind was assasinated. It really hit home when they set up the head of the CIA as the leak and then the commander brought in a reporter to chew him out about reporting her CIA status and where abouts.

I think that episode was called "The Plame Affair"

Too bad, I liked the show, but just like West Wing, it will be politisized until I stop watching there by killing off another great idea.

" It's cognitive dissonance... (Below threshold)
greta:

" It's cognitive dissonance of epic proportions."


Have you ever heard of Dean Gotcher (sp)? I went to one of his seminars and he has studied the dialectic for years. I see it everywhere. I also agree with your upside down observation. The Lord said that in the last days "evil will be seen as good and good evil".

"Just to clarify: I agre... (Below threshold)
D. Doré:

"Just to clarify: I agree with the point you're making. What puzzles me are people like -s- who feel threatened by Christian whackos. Yes, some are whackos, some are insane. But does that make them any less "Christian?" Says who? Is that written somewhere? Posted by: Mark

The word "christian" has become almost synonymous with "gentile who has been inside a church at some point in their life" in our society. Instead of meaning someone who faithfully follows the teaching and example of Jesus Christ, believes Him to be the Messiah, and places Him as the Lord of their life. For that person, it is THE key indentifier of their being. They are a Follower of Christ before they would describe themselves as Man, Woman, Black, White, American, Iraqi... whatever. That is because it is more important than any other priority in their life. (Going to a "Christian Church" doesn't make you any more a Christian, than going to McDonalds makes you a hamburger.)

Therefore Mark, if someone calls themselves a "Christ" or "Messiah" they are creating their own religion naming themselves a god. They are no follower of Jesus.

If someone claims that their words are as important or more so than those of Christ, they are no followers of Jesus.

If they kill in Jesus name (abortionists, their own followers, or any others), how can they be a follower of Jesus, if they don't listen and head His own words?

Absolute followers of Jesus are still human, so they will still make mistakes and sin. However, to do something so grievous as to be in complete contradiction to Christ and His teachings, doesn't that logically follow that they didn't really know Him to begin with?

It's not some kind of "religious saving of face". It's just a fact.

ICallMasICM,I read y... (Below threshold)
edmcgon:

ICallMasICM,
I read your link. Did you?

"But there was little official government action until November 1978, when U.S. Rep. Leo Ryan, who had been contacted by a number of people worried about their relatives in the Peoples Temple, decided to lead a delegation of reporters and relatives to Jonestown.

Ryan's group arrived on November 17. Their visit began happily enough, but the mood soured after some Jonestown residents indicated they wanted to defect. The group was ambushed the next day as they tried to leave at a nearby airstrip. Ryan and four others were killed."

That makes 5 non-followers who were killed.

D. Dore,
It is easy to sit here and say Bin Laden is reading the Quran correctly and the so-called peaceful Muslims are not. But did the Crusaders read the Bible correctly? How about abortion clinic bombers?

“Do not judge, lest you be judged” (Matthew 7:1).

edmcgon, here's one major d... (Below threshold)

edmcgon, here's one major distinction: Christianity outgrew that phase. Judaism had its own expansionist, conquering phase, too, and outgrew it. Islam is having its right now.

Unless you'd care to cite say, ten incidents of Christian-inspired terrorism in the last twenty years. Terrorist incidents where the terrorists proclaimed that they were doing it for Jesus, and significant numbers of Christians either refused to denounce it, or said it was "provoked."

J.

Its time to wring the peaco... (Below threshold)
spurwing plover:

Its time to wring the peacocks lying rotten neck

D. Dore:"Therefore... (Below threshold)
Mark:

D. Dore:

"Therefore Mark, if someone calls themselves a "Christ" or "Messiah" they are creating their own religion naming themselves a god. They are no follower of Jesus."

I'm with ya there, no prob.

"Absolute followers of Jesus are still human, so they will still make mistakes and sin. However, to do something so grievous as to be in complete contradiction to Christ and His teachings, doesn't that logically follow that they didn't really know Him to begin with?"

So, if a devout believer and follower goes heywire for a moment and commits a really big sin like bombing an abortion clinic, then he's automatically not a Christian by definition? And this is according to the follower of a religion that celebrates as one of iits biggest tenets the notion that Jesus Christ gave his life for our sins, because all mortals sin? That seems a little contradictory and convenient because, by definition then, no Christian is capable of doing something really, really bad, and no Christian has ever done so. Am I missing something?

Someone murder Mark please<... (Below threshold)
Jeff Feagles:

Someone murder Mark please

'That makes 5 non-followers... (Below threshold)
ICallMasICM:

'That makes 5 non-followers who were killed.'

No you're right - I missed that - I stopped after it said 913 dead and over 900 of his followers. None the less it wasn't their objective to kill people outside the cult.

they even had the balls to ... (Below threshold)
willie:

they even had the balls to continually call them udocumented workers so as not to have the word illegal associated with the illegal aliens

Sorry Jeff,Just co... (Below threshold)
Mark:

Sorry Jeff,

Just coming to the realization that Christians can do no wrong, because if they do, they really weren't Christians.

I'm not sure that's what I was taught growing up, but the zealots seem to push that meme.

The show did a good job. I... (Below threshold)
Nemo:

The show did a good job. It pointed out the danger or stereotypes, but also took the media to task for showing obscenities wall-to-wall for the terrorists. I think it took the media to task more than it did the terrorists.

"N-B-C". Hmm, sounds famili... (Below threshold)
AnonymousDrivel:

"N-B-C". Hmm, sounds familiar. Didn't that used to be a network?

Mikey (November 16, 2005 08:32 PM) started the comments off right. Haven't watched 'em for years. Never even heard of E-Ring 'til now. It would seem I've missed only more PC BS. Hmm, that sounds familiar too. Didn't that used to be a network?

I stopped watching Law and ... (Below threshold)
Tim in PA:

I stopped watching Law and Order after cheap shot anti-war comments started creeping into the dialog in places where they were totally irrellevant to the story or even the momentary topic at hand.

(Deleted at commenter's ... (Below threshold)
D. Doré:

(Deleted at commenter's request. See following posting.)

J.

Wow... I hit the post butt... (Below threshold)
D. Doré:

Wow... I hit the post button instead of the preview button. Well.. nuts.

It should have only looked like this:

I'm so happy you guys read my post. I'm glad to have gotten feedback from it!

Mark, that's an awesome question:

"So, if a devout believer and follower goes heywire for a moment and commits a really big sin like bombing an abortion clinic, then he's automatically not a Christian by definition?"

As I said, all Christians are only human too, and will absolutely make mistakes. Some can even commit crimes and perpetrate evil (as all humans can). But, if you were Alfafa... and Spanky's biggest follower in the "He-man Woman Hater's Club", and followed every rule to the last iota for years. But then one fateful day you met Darla. Soon, after your first kiss you realize that Darla has become more important to you than the club. You've chosen something to be more important in your life that is contradictory to your previous belief system. You can't love Darla, and be a member in good standing of the "He-man Woman Hater's Club". As Christ says: "No man can serve 2 masters".

For someone to kill an abortion doctor over something that's not personal but ideological, I would say at some point that person's religion became Pro-life or Anti-abortion. That became more important to them than anything else.

Now, on a similar theme, but with a different motive: A man has truly been a follower of Christ as I defined previously, and had a teenage daughter. Then she became pregnant without his knowing so. She goes to an abortion clinic to have an abortion without his knowledge or approval... and for some bizarre reason (I know this is uncommon, at least I hope it is) she gets an infection (or something) and dies because of complications. The man finds out and in an emotional rage tracks down the doctor and slays him... Well, in that case the man could still have been a Christian who said to himself as he tracked down the doctor: "Jesus, I know you told us not to kill, but I am doing this for my daughter" or "for myself" or "for my family"... at that point, you have a Christian who committed both crime and sin. He should be tried for his crimes and made to pay whatever penalty that the law prescribes up to and including the death penalty if that's the law of the land.

For someone or anyone to take another human life, and say "I'm doing this in the name of Jesus" (which I would take to mean, I'm doing this for the benefit of, or to the glory of Jesus) well, then I stand by my previous post. They didn't know Jesus.

I hope that clarifies that a little. If my words aren't adequate (and I can understand if they aren't) skip down to the bottom of this post. There you can see what Jesus said about this exact kind of thing!

Now onto edmcgon

"It is easy to sit here and say Bin Laden is reading the Quran correctly and the so-called peaceful Muslims are not. But did the Crusaders read the Bible correctly? How about abortion clinic bombers?"

Funny you should ask that, because that's another point in my favor. The crusaders absolutely didn't read the Bible. They couldn't. Peasants, knights, lords, and in fact even the vast majority of priests didn't have access to the scriptures. Only special scholars were granted access to read the scriptures, and even then they were kept in either their original languages (Hebrew & koine Greek with a little Aramaic) or the latin translation of the text. No one was allowed to translate the Bible into the common language. (if you want to know why that happened, I'd be happy to share that with you in a different post, this one's long enough already)

So, you are right! The crusaders in fact, DIDN'T read their Bible. The first Bibles made available to people in their common tongue were the Guttenberg Bibles in German, translated by Martin Luther in the mid sixteenth century, over 200 years after the end of the crusades.

(BTW: Monty Python and the Search for the Holy Grail is awesomely funny... however Brother Maynard might have had the "holy book of armaments" with him, but he carried no Bible with him on his trip)

But you and I were conversing about the following S.A.T. type question:

"Jim Jones is to Christian as Bin-Laden is to Muslim" True or False

Ok, you didn't say it like that... what you said was:

"Jim Jones thought of himself as a Christian, much like Bin Laden thinks of himself as a Muslim."

And I say: False.

Jim Jones ignored what his scriptures said. Jim Jones didn't want to follow the Messiah... he wanted to BE a messiah.

Bin-Laden reads AND practices his scriptures (as I pointed out in the Koran's own words). He is practicing his religion and following his chosen leader (Mohammed) quite diligently.

I then pointed out that the reason the (as you phrased it) "so-called peaceful Muslims" were not distancing themselves from Bin-Laden and that kind of activity is because they CAN and DO read their scriptures and know that these people are fulfilling their scriptures in ways they have simply chosen not to.

And then you end it with:

“Do not judge, lest you be judged” (Matthew 7:1).

Well, seeing as how you brought up Matthew 7... I think you'll find this amazingly fitting to today's discussion. (Mark, I hope you read this too) We'll pick this up at verse 13 where Jesus says:

13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits. 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25 "And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell--and great was its fall."

Matthew 7:13-27


Thanks guys! I think this has been a great discussion!

D. Dore,I will grant... (Below threshold)
edmcgon:

D. Dore,
I will grant you the point on the Crusaders not reading the Bible. How about the abortion clinic bombers/murderers?

I will also agree that these people are prioritizing the wrong parts of the Bible. IMO, one should start the Bible with the words of Jesus. Everything else should be secondary to that. But that's just me. How many different interpretations of the Bible are there? One need only look at how many different Christian religions/sects there are: Catholic, Baptist, Mormon, Protestant, Methodist, Lutheran, Jehovah's Witnesses, Quakers, etc. One might even include Judaism, since Christianity is technically an offshoot of Judaism. Which one of these is the "correct" interpretation? I would not be surprised if there are just as many interpretations of the Quran. Can you honestly sit there and tell me Bin Laden is practicing the "correct" interpretation of the Quran, merely by quoting passages from it? I think not.

Jay Tea,
10 incidents of Christian-inspired terrorism in the last 20 years? How about since 1964, since that was when the PLO was founded? That makes for a fair comparison between the two religions. Here goes:

1-3. Eric Robert Rudolph's bombings of abortion clinics in 1997 and 1998, plus his bombing of a gay nightclub in 1997. In case you doubt his religious intent, from one of his letters sent to authorities after the bombings: "We declare and will wage total war on the ungodly communist regime in New York and your legaslative bureaucratic lackey's in Washington. It is you who are responsible and preside over the murder of children and issue the policy of ungodly preversion thats destroying our people."
4-23. The KKK (a "white christian" organization) firebombed 20 black churches in Mississippi during the summer of 1964.
24. The firebombing of Vernon Dahmer's house by the KKK in 1966. He had offered to allow blacks to pay the poll tax at his store.
25. The murder of Barnett Slepian, an abortion doctor, by James Charles Kopp in 1998.
26. The Atiak massacre in Uganda by the "Lord's Resistance Army" (a Christian rebel group) in 1995. Around 200 civilians were killed. According to the Christian Science Monitor, a "field commander" for the LRA allegedly told one of his troops "that an angel ordered the massacre."
27. About 100 refugees were killed at attacks on the Achol-pi Refugee Settlement by the LRA in 1996.
28. Another twenty refugees were killed in a separate attack by the LRA at the same settlement in 2002.
29. Also in 1996, the LRA abducted 152 girls from St. Mary's College in Aboke. After negotiations, 109 of them were later released.
30. In Kitgum in 1997, the LRA killed another 412 civilians.
31. The 2002 Soweto bombings in South Africa by a group called The Warriors of the Boer Nation. In an email where the group claimed responsibility for the bombings, they referred to themselves as "fighters for God and the Boer people".
32. In 2000, a group known as "God's Army" took over a hospital in Burma, holding 750 patients and medical staff hostage. They threatened to detonate two bombs if their demands were not met. God's Army is a splinter group from the Christian Karen National Union.

For the record, that's 11 Christian terrorist actions in the last 20 years. That's just from some simple research. If I wanted to spend the time, I could come up with more.

Like I said in my first post, let's get off the "holier than thou" thing.

Before I get flamed, I am NOT saying Christians bad/Muslims good. I am just saying that a tv show which portrays Christian terrorism is NOT being unrealistic.

Um, 1964 and 1966 were a li... (Below threshold)
ClobberGirl:

Um, 1964 and 1966 were a little more than 20 years ago, friend...

I did say 11 in the past 20... (Below threshold)
edmcgon:

I did say 11 in the past 20 years (per Jay's original request). Going back to 1964, there were 32.

edmcgon, as I said i... (Below threshold)
D. Doré:

edmcgon, as I said in previous posts in this string, Christians can do wrong and commit evil acts. There are also many people who confused, think themselves Christian and can also do evil. Historically, huge evil (the spanish inquisition) has also been done by people who claimed to be Christians, but in fact never knew Jesus.

I posted the words of the Koran for you and the others to read for yourselves. You can look them up, there are lots of On-line Korans available.

I didn't add, or subtract any of the text. They aren't difficult to understand. They aren't encrypted and not even cryptic. You don't need something special to understand them. When you read them in their surrounding scriptures they still mean the same.

Those words were written by "the prophet" Mohammad. Not only did he commend his followers in the Koran to kill unbelievers (infidels), his hands also dripped with blood. He lead countless raids on caravans, and as his army grew, lead them to wars against other armies. In both kinds of skirmishes they only allowed survivors if they converted to Islam. They took plunder, and kept slaves. He also commanded that "Allah & his prophet" were to get 5% of all the plunder taken in such victories, so that even when Mohammad didn't fight, he still received plunder and slaves.

He also had an interesting social life with at least 12 wives. One of which he married when she was 6 and had sexual relations with her when she was 9. (The Hadith According to Al Bukahri, 7:64. This version of the Hadith is considered to be the most definitive collection of Is­lamic oral traditions. It consists of nine volumes. It can be found on the Internet at hadith)

There isn't a question about it, it is simply fact:

Mohammad killed men at his own hands.
Mohammed had others kill for him and Allah.
Mohammed commends his followers to continue to kill for Allah.
Mohammed took and owned slaves.

Islam was born in violence, and its rapid spread comes through violence and threats of violence. It's not an accident or coincidence. It's innate to it.

To suggest that it's all up to discussion and matter of opinion because Christianity has different denominations is a non-sequitur.

There are many denominations under "Christianity". (There are also cults which we can discuss in another post if you desire: Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc... It makes sense not to include them in this discussion because they each have their own "special scriptures" that they have claimed to received and hold to higher authority than the Bible).

Those denominational divisions are based on things like: "Should baptism be done when people are children or adults. Should they be sprinkled with water, or fully immersed." Many are divided by the different way they worship God at a service: "Should we be quiet and reverent? Should we be joyful and exuberant? Should music be played with on an organ, piano, or a full rock band?" They aren't over whether Jesus said to "love one another" or whether Jesus really meant to "love one another, but not the Jew" (Your inclusion of the kkk as being a "christian group" is interesting. Jesus was a Jew as were all of the authors of the Bible. How well could they know or love Jesus?)

If you can quote Jesus understanding what he meant when you referenced Matthew 7:1: "Judge not, lest ye be judged", then why is it so difficult to understand Mohammad when he tells us in Surah 9:5: "slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush"

So...

"Can you honestly sit there and tell me Bin Laden is practicing the "correct" interpretation of the Quran, merely by quoting passages from it? I think not." -edmcgon

Clearly, I can. (So can the "peaceful Muslims", hence their lack of distancing themselves from him.) The question is now, why can't you?


Mark: CLEARLY you cannot r... (Below threshold)
-S-:

Mark: CLEARLY you cannot read or else are reading imaginary content in a special way that you might want to explain to someone for your own benefit.

You describe me as being 'threatened by Christian whackos'. You're wandering into your own version of whacko with that one.

What I think it is is that people who write such luridly dishonest statements such as that just want to throw up on anyone nearby.

What I ACTUALLY wrote was that, when the name of Jim Jones was earlier suggested here, this thread, as "a Christian," what I ACTUALLY wrote was that he wasn't a Christian, but was a lunatic. Mark then posits that there are Christians who are lunatics, and then, all by himself without any further comments by me about this issue, that I am "threatened by Christian whackos."

And JIM JONES was the whacko, Mark? Please, revaluate. At least broaden your awareness about the defintion of "whacko."

The presence of mental illness defines someone as not being spiritually sound. They can profess Napolean and themselves as the next Messiah all at the same time, while reading the Old Testament and making toast. These behaviors do not define someone as "a Christian."

It's always interesting to my read to encounter the many, many people who are not Christians who seem intent on describing just who is a Christian, what a Christian is or should be, all that by people who would not know Jesus Christ (nor do) if He was to knock on your door in the next hour.

My point is, is that faith and faith commitment as a Christian is based on personal dedication and belief. It's not a social group you find appealing because they, well, all eat their meals together, wear pretty burkhas, drive the same cars, understand and share in mutual chants that are vocally appealing...it's not any of that, it's not charismatic figures, it's not the pink Cadillacs in the parking lot, the big buildings...

It's none of that, it's personal belief in the person and salvation of Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity of God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit.

You find your companions afterward but the purpose and presence of Christ in a human existence is the proof and evidence of a Christian.

A person "possessed" with ailments of such disorders that are named in the Bible and easily diagnosed by most contemporary medicine, a person such as that may be able to write entire passages from memory but the issue isn't what they say but who they are in keeping with what is told us the presence of Christ is. He does not induce insanity, lechery, defilement, sickness, multiple personalities, homosexuality, abortion, murder, molestations, delusions...the list is a long one of human suffering here but the point is that Christ does not induce nor tolerate, for lack of a better word here, "evil."

I'm no more threatened by evil, and Jim Jones was a human being suffering from evils of many kinds, I'm no more threaned by evil than I am disappointing in Christ. And, I don't lack compassion for human suffering (a "whacko" to use Mark's terminology) but I would not accept leadership, counsel or other example from someone defiled by the very conditions that Christ denounces. Someone who was "a whacko" would not be accepted by me as a Christian, but they would also not be feared by me nor rejected by me in their plight, whatever it might be.

But, there's also a case there for survival and self protection. I'd no more allow "a whacko" who professed themselves as Cleopatra reincarnated and wanted to "do my chart" than I would Jim Jones, to advise me to any degree about anything.

It's a case of the faith being learned by learning the faith and there are talented Christians skilled in how to assist "whackos" among us who are available to accept helps. Not my area of training, nor expertise in a clinical sense.

But, Mark, to allege that there are "Christian whackos" is like saying there are "gay priests." The terms are cancelling of one another, and define nothing other than nonsense.

D. Dore,If we take y... (Below threshold)
edmcgon:

D. Dore,
If we take your view of the Quran, let us then take the same view of the Bible. Leviticus 25:44-46 (this is God speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai):

"And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have—from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves. Moreover you may buy the children of the strangers who dwell among you, and their families who are with you, which they beget in your land; and they shall become your property. And you may take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them as a possession; they shall be your permanent slaves."

Are you saying that Christianity claims that slavery is ok? Because that is what these words say. Or are we saying that it is only ok for Jews to have slaves? Or do you say the commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Mathew 22:39) by Jesus later outweighs the slavery thing? The only problem with that is that God also says the same thing to Moses in Leviticus 19:18, thereby leaving the point that God does not consider a slave as a "neighbor".

If you can sit there and tell me Bin Laden is practicing the correct form of the Quran, then I can sit here and tell you that the abolitionists of the 19th century were NOT practicing the correct form of the Bible, and only Christians who support slavery are practicing the correct form of the Bible.

This is an argument in semantics. My point is that Bin Laden is a selfish man who is using the Quran to his own ends. Does that make the Quran evil? No more so than the slave traders who used the Bible to justify their own activities made the Bible evil. Religions are NOT evil.

edmcgon, once again ... (Below threshold)
D. Doré:

edmcgon, once again you are a master at the argument through non-sequitur. Let me try to get this back to "apples to apples" so we can continue to learn from one another.

The Bible is composed of 66 different books, 39 in the Old Testament and 27 in the New Testament. The Bible was written between 1500 B.C. and 100 A.D. by approximately 40 different authors on 3 different continents. (Africa, Asia, and Europe) The Bible is not put together in Chronological order, but as different types of literature gathered together by similar genres.

There is, as you've noted 2 Testaments: The Old (containing the same books of scripture that the Jews revere as Holy); and The New (the section of scripture that tells about Jesus, His ministry and what we were taught through that).

With that much literature (it contains books of law, poetry, prophecy & history) and almost 1600 years of human existence spanning that timeframe (in other words, the definition of a word used by a Hebrew shepherd under captivity in Egypt might not have the same connotation to a Jewish fisherman living under Roman occupation), you are right it takes care to read the Bible thoughtfully.

Now on the otherhand, the Koran was written by 1 person, on 1 continent, during only 1 man's lifetime. So you can't compare the 2 in its exegesis as you have tried to.

Leviticus is a part of the Old Testament, written by Moses. In it they are laying out the law for the Hebrews as they are now a nation again. So yes, during that time they are told they can own slaves (as was the custom of the other nations around them). (Also note that they were not told to hurt, hate or kill their slaves or even force them to become Jews.)

In my previous posts I've only compared the words of Jesus to the words of Mohammad. Not because I shun the Old Testament (or was frightened that you might discover something in there I didn't know about and would be soar afraid of further discussion with you because of your obvious mastery over the text), but because for us to discuss this as plainly as possible, we need to make sure we are comparing "apples to apples".

That would be comparing the words & life example of Jesus, to the words & life example of Mohammad.

Bin-Laden (once again) is living his life as the Koran clearly states. (Where are the Mulahs saying that he isn't?) He is following both the example of Mohammad's life and his words in the Koran. It is that simple.

I've not said that Islam is evil. I have however, and will state again that violence and intolerance is innate to it. That killing Christians and Jews, and other non-believers is approved by their god. It is not a religion of peace and love. The only real peace in Islam is achieved once all are Muslim.

"fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah" [Sura 2:193]

One religion: Islam.

I think it is astonishingly clear that Bin-Laden is faithful to both Muhammad and the Koran.

www.usamuslims.org... (Below threshold)

www.usamuslims.org

FYI, Muslims believe in Jesus Christ, the Virign Mary and according to the Koran Jews and Christians are not unblievers - they are The People of the Book. Hence Muslims can only marry Jews and Christains, other than Muslims. Arafat's wife is Christian, the King of Jordan's wife is Christian, etc.

The Koran says God sent the Torah (Taurat) & the Gospels (Injil) to mankind before sending the Koran. All Muslims revere Jesus Christ, the Virgin Mary and the Second Coming. The unbeleivers/Infidels in the Koran are Pagan Arab idolators. You can read this in the Koran for yourself at USC's online Koran http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/
and stop listening to uneducated hate filled people like D Dore. He/she is a lost soul.

(TO D. Doré: pls see above regarding unbelievers and why did you leave out many sentances from the Koran in your quotes. Also why are you replacing the word God with Allah in all your quotes from the Koran. The English translation of the Koran uses the word God - not Allah - b/c Al-means One and Llah-means God. It is the One God, not a proper name. Also for your info, Muhammad preached the most pure woman in Islam was the Virgin Mary and Jesus Christ was one of the most revered servants of God. Still think Muhammad was a bad guy?

"Still think Muhammad wa... (Below threshold)
D. Doré:

"Still think Muhammad was a bad guy?" - USAMuslims.org

I never said Mohammad was a bad guy. In fact, I never said Bin-Laden was a bad guy. I've never said one word in my postings on this string that is filled with hate, nor intolerance. I've simply pointed out, over and over again that Bin-Laden is an ardent follower of Mohammad. He strives to follow Mohammad from both his historical actions, and his very words from the Koran.

The USC link to the Koran is very nice. I epecially like the fact that there are 3 parallel English translations. I'll use that one from now on, thanks! I encourage those that have the time to look up the verses I used so they can read for themselves in context. For you to imply that I left out "so many sentences" is an interesting tactic, but luckily those that frequent WizBang are slightly more literate than that.

However, I'll include it here again (in all three versions that the USC site has on it) for all to read the words of Mohammad for themselves:

Surah 005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

As for Arafat's wife being a Christian I'll defer to Matthew 7:13-27. However, she is deeply loved by the Muslim Palestinian people, right? And the King of Jordan that you point to, is that the same one that Al-Zarqawi has now threatened to cut off his traitorous head?

I would also like to point out, most esteemed USAMuslims.org, that all three of the Koran translations from the site you gave us uses the word Allah, and not "God". I did not replace the word "God" with the word "Allah" in the text, your Muslim scholars did. Why would you have a problem with that?

Dear Readers, I know my posts have been long. I hope you have found them informative and interesting enough to keep you reading. I also hope that you have notice that edmcgon & even USAMuslims.org did not dispute the following:

Mohammad killed men at his own hands.
Mohammad had others kill for him and Allah.
Mohammad commends his followers to continue to kill for Allah.
Mohammad took and owned slaves personally.
Mohammad is the author of the Koran.
And the Koran says:

Surah 005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

Surah 005.033
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
PICKTHAL: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;
SHAKIR: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,

Surah 009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Surah 002.191
YUSUFALI: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
PICKTHAL: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
SHAKIR: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

Instead of refuting such facts they continue to point in other directions. They have suggested that I have not shared with you the scriptures from the Koran in their entirety, implying that I've tried to decieve you. In a similar fashion they've suggested that I changed words in the quoted verses (Allah vs. God) to also make you feel that you can't trust my postings. They have now labled me "hate filled", "uneducated" & a "lost soul". I think you can decide for yourselves the truth of all three of those charges.

So please, ask yourselves this: From what you know of Osama Bin-Laden, does he seem to follow the example Mohammad laid out for him in his life & does he seem to follow the words Mohammad wrote in the Koran?

D Dore obviously hasn't rea... (Below threshold)
CAIR:

D Dore obviously hasn't read the Koran, nor understands the context of the quotes, so let us shed some light:

Q: Who are the infidels & unbelievers in Islam, and why does it say to slay them?

A:Pagan Arab idol worshippers of 7th Century Arabia, and in general any polytheists. The earliest Muslims were being killed and persecuted in Mecca by the Arab polytheists. The Koran’s Sura 2, 9, and others are devoted to the story of the struggle or “Jihad” against the oppression of these Meccan Arab pagans, as it specifically mentions the Kaaba in Mecca as the “Inviolable Place of Worship” which the pagans had turned into a pagan shrine. The Kaaba was originally built by the Muslim prophet Abraham as a place to worship the One God.

(Koran 2:191-3) And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them...but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression.

(Surah 009.005 ) see above re: who are pagans

Q: What does the Koran say about Christians?:

A : (Koran 57:27) After them We sent other apostles, and after those Jesus the son of Mary. We gave him the Gospel, and put compassion and mercy in the hearts of his followers.

A: (Koran 5:82)...You will find the people most affectionate to those who have iman (faith) are those who say, 'We are Christians.' That is because some of them are priests and monks and because they are not arrogant. When they listen to what We have shown Muhammad (pbuh), their eyes brim over with tears at the truth they find there....

cair-net.org

D. Dore,Just one que... (Below threshold)
edmcgon:

D. Dore,
Just one question: Since God did not put a time limit on the ownership of slaves, is it safe to say that Christians can own slaves today?

Whether the Bible was written over thousands of years by a number of different people is irrelevant to how Christians look at it (with the exception of believers who consider that within their beliefs).

I will point out (yet again) that I am NOT arguing with you about the contents of the Quran. I am asking you why followers of Islam cannot throw out your referenced passages as irrelevant to their beliefs today, much as the Christians have thrown out the passages on slavery?

The main point of ANY religion is to find our relationship with God. If the Quran accomplishes this for Muslims, then God bless them.

To USAMuslims.org: I have to disagree with your comment, "...stop listening to uneducated hate filled people like D Dore. He/she is a lost soul."

Dore strikes me as fairly educated, although somewhat misguided. Dore also strikes me as someone who is reasonably concerned about what the Quran states. While I do not agree with Dore, I appreciate the concerns Dore has. Otherwise, I would not be spending this much time discussing this topic with Dore. In addition, I hope one of us will walk away from this discussion enlightened.

Also, let us not presume to speak to the state of Dore's soul. But, for the sake of argument, I will say this: If Dore is a "lost soul", then let us help Dore to find the right path. If Dore is NOT a lost soul, perhaps Dore could show us a better path. Either way, we all win.

edmcgon, thanks for stickin... (Below threshold)
D. Doré:

edmcgon, thanks for sticking up for my soul. I appreciate your analysis even if I disagree with you as well.

I don't feel it necessary to once again go over why the exegesis of the Bible takes greater care than the exegesis of the Koran (just re-read my post concerning that). The law of Leviticus was written setting up the Jewish society taking place in what eventually became the Northern Kingdom of Israel, and the Southern Kingdom of Judah. Those kingdoms were destroyed, and even with the State of Israel now in existance, it is not the society set up from Leviticus.

I do understand what you are trying to say, however. Kind of summing it up like: "So theoretically if that's true of the Old Testament writings, couldn't it be true of the Islamic Scripture?"

In otherwords, Mohammad was only writing about not making friends with Christians and Jews then, but not now? Muslims were only suppose to kill the pagans then, but not now? Therefore is it true that when the Koran says:

Surah 005.033
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

it only meant then, and not now? If that is true, than why wouldn't that be THE FIRST thing that USAMuslims.org and CAIR would say? Isn't that a little strange?

Instead I was assigned some rather nasty (and I kind of felt desperate) labels, and their arguments fought on strange side points. Look at this:

CAIR has said that:

"Q: Who are the infidels & unbelievers in Islam, and why does it say to slay them?

A:Pagan Arab idol worshippers of 7th Century Arabia, and in general any polytheists."

I'm not sure about you, but it doesn't make me feel much better that they only want to kill polytheists. That's not much of an argument to say that Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance, is it?

Believe me, I do know that as far as most moral standards go, Evangelical Christians, Orthodox Jews & Muslims are very similar, and want to create communities that are safe to raise their families.

It's also true that all three faiths were created in blood:

Judaism was formed with the sacrificing of animals, and the shedding of blood to pay for sins. Abraham being asked to give up his only son Isaac on the mount of Moriah (as an example of the sacrifice God Himself would make later using His own Son).

Christianity was formed with the shedding of Christ's blood as the ultimate sacrifice and spotless lamb, paying for the sins of all who would claim that sacrifice as payment for their sin. (Jesus was slain on the mount that was then called Golgotha, which had previously been called "Moriah" in Abraham's day. It is an amazing fulfillment of the story of Abraham & Isaac in Genesis 22). Later 11 of the 12 apostles would also be killed for their faith (most in very gruesome ways). They didn't fight or use violence, not even to defend themselves when that happened.

Islam was also formed with the shedding of blood. Mohammad killed men. Mohammad had men killed. This is seen in the "Hadith":

Volume 2, Book 14, Number 68:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) offered the Fajr prayer when it was still dark, then he rode and said, 'Allah Akbar! Khaibar is ruined. When we approach near to a nation, the most unfortunate is the morning of those who have been warned." The people came out into the streets saying, "Muhammad and his army." Allah's Apostle vanquished them by force and their warriors were killed; the children and women were taken as captives. Safiya was taken by Dihya Al-Kalbi and later she belonged to Allah's Apostle go who married her and her Mahr was her manumission.

Volume 8, Book 82, Number 794:
Narrated Anas:

Some people from the tribe of 'Ukl came to the Prophet and embraced Islam. The climate of Medina did not suit them, so the Prophet ordered them to go to the (herd of milch) camels of charity and to drink, their milk and urine (as a medicine). They did so, and after they had recovered from their ailment (became healthy) they turned renegades (reverted from Islam) and killed the shepherd of the camels and took the camels away. The Prophet sent (some people) in their pursuit and so they were (caught and) brought, and the Prophets ordered that their hands and legs should be cut off and that their eyes should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and that their cut hands and legs should not be cauterized, till they die.

Islam was formed on the blood spilt of others: Pagans (polytheists); some Jews; some Turks; and those that opposed "Allah's apostle".

Make no mistake. I will fully admit that the blood of others have been spilled in the name of Christ by wicked men (who absolutely did not have a relationship with Jesus). However, in the case of Islam, that kind of blood was spilt by Islam's primary figure Mohammad, the author of its holy scriptures the Koran.

My natural desire edmcgon, would be to simply ask USAMusilms.org and CAIR to respond to what you and I started speaking about in the first place: Why don't muslims distance themselves from Bin-Laden? I believe it's because they know he is leading a good muslim life as prescribed by the Koran and exemplified by Mohammad. So I would ask them: "USAMuslims.org and CAIR, in Allah's eyes who is a better muslim: you or Bin-Laden, and Why?"

Then perhaps this discussion could simply be over with. However, because the Islamic "principle of Al Takeyya" even exists... how can either you or I take them at their word? What am I talking about? Well, it's time to do some searching for yourselves: Google: principle of al takeyya

Thanks for reading and conversing with me: edmcgon; mark; -s-; USAmuslims.org, CAIR and all the rest. I've really enjoyed this thread. However it's been brought to my attention that it would be best to go no further with this in this kind of forum.

Good luck my friends!

Good luck to you too D. Dor... (Below threshold)
edmcgon:

Good luck to you too D. Dore!

I have enjoyed our discussion as well. We can agree to disagree on this topic.

Take care.

Dore, Bin Laden is not the ... (Below threshold)
USAMuslims:

Dore, Bin Laden is not the Muslim Pope that you seem to think he is. Nor is he a spokesperson for the faith. He is a FUGITIVE on the run from every Muslim government in the world, including his own Saudi Arabian govmt (suprising since they love fanatics). Saying he follows Muhammad and kills in the name of Islam, is like saying Hitler (burnt 5 million Jews & others), Milosivec (massacred 7,000 Muslim civilians at Sebrencia), American Slave Owners (10 million African slaves incl Muslims) and many more, follow Jesus and kill in the name of Christianity.

You are very correct in saying the Koran says to fight and slay 7th Century ARAB pagans who are killing the early Muslims during the time the Koran was written. But the other 99% of the Koran is nearly identical to the Old Testament as well as some of the New Testament. You'll find in it: Jesus Christ, Virgin Mary, Adam/Eve, Moses, Solomon, Isaac, Ishmael, Job, Jacob, Elijah, Lot, John the Baptist, Angels, Satan , Heaven/Hell, the Last Day, God’s covenant with the Children of Israel, the Second Coming, Judgment Day, Noah and The Ark, Jonah, David & Goliath, Sodom, God creating the Heavens & Earth in 6 days, etc.

PS God sent the Koran, Muhammed did not write it - he was illiterate. That was the miracle. And the Hadith is not from God, nor Muhammad, it was written by others hundrds of years afterwards and much of it is in doubt. Sorry for the "lost soul" comment - it was out of line. I'll stop writing this thread too and just watch E-RING on NBC. Thanks Dore and edmcgon. PEACE

but the real terrorism is r... (Below threshold)
monkeys:

but the real terrorism is religion. you devastate souls and minds. damn you whores of egoism, you pretend to be your god




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