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Fitzgerald v Starr: Bang for the Buck

I've made exactly 2 posts about the Plame game and I've been flooded with comments about how little money Fitzgerald has spent vs Ken Starr investigating Whitewater. I knew the robobats (moonbats that spew talking points on command) got their information somewhere so I was not too surprised to see one of the Kos Kids had a post.

It was from "Armando" who is my favorite Kos Kid. (OK he is the only one whose name I know) When I get the complete moonbat stuff from Kos it is a sure thing Armando is the one who got them going. He's most famous for his post "proving" the Dan rather documents were real. I'm still laughing over that one. Anyway let's get to the point.

The best number we have from Fitzgerald is that thru Feb 2005 he spent $723,000. Considering that is for 15 months of work and 9 more have passed, it's a pretty safe bet he's spent about 1.25 million by now. (after all he keeps "expanding" the investigation ;-) For that we have exactly one indictment and no convictions. And the indictment had nothing to do with the case, it was a Martha Stewart indictment.

The left loves to whine about Ken Starr Spending $30 million. (They say 40 million but that number includes what other governmental agencies spent, we don't have that number on Fitz so I'll keep apples and apples for now.)

Forget indictments for now, how many CONVICTIONS were produced from Whitewater?


1) Webster Hubbell: Bill Clinton friend and political ally; Hillary Clinton Rose Law Firm partner: embezzlement; fraud; two felony convictions (Wall Street Journal "Whither Whitewater?" October 18, 1995)

2) Jim Guy Tucker: fraud; three felony convictions (Wall Street Journal "Second-Term Stall" February 11, 1997; Associated Press "Tucker Pleads Guilty to Cable Fraud" February 20, 1998)

3) William J. Marks Sr.: Jim Guy Tucker business partner; one conspiracy conviction (Associated Press "Whitewater Defendant Pleads Guilty" August 28, 1997)

4) Jim McDougal: Bill and Hillary Clinton friend, banker, and political ally: eighteen felony convictions (Wall Street Journal "Immunize Hale" May 29, 1996)

5) Susan McDougal: Bill and Hillary Clinton friend; former wife of Jim McDougal: four felony convictions (Wall Street Journal "Immunize Hale" May 29, 1996)

6) David Hale: Bill and Hillary Clinton friend, banker, and political ally: two felony convictions of conspiracy and mail fraud (Wall Street Journal "The Arkansas Machine Strikes Back" March 19, 1996)

7) Chris Wade: Whitewater real estate broker; two felony convictions (Wall Street Journal "Hard Evidence From a Federal Investigator" August 10, 1995)

8) Stephen Smith: former Governor Clinton aide; one conviction (Wall Street Journal "Hard Evidence From a Federal Investigator" August 10, 1995)

9) Larry Kuca: Madison real estate agent; fraudulent loans (Wall Steet Journal "Hard Evidence From a Federal Investigator" August 10, 1995)

10) Robert Palmer: Madison appraiser; one conspiracy felony conviction (Wall Street Journal "Hale Predicts Hillary Conviction" October 21, 1996)

11) Neal Ainley: Perry County Bank president; embezzled bank funds for Clinton campaign; two misdemeanor convictions (Wall Street Journal "Arkansas Bank Shot" May 4, 1995)

12) John Latham: Madison Bank CEO; bank fraud conviction (Wall Street Journal "Smoke Without Fire" January 12, 1996)

13) John Haley: attorney for Jim Guy Tucker; misdemeanor guilty plea; tax fraud (Associated Press "Tucker Pleads Guilty to Cable Fraud" February 20, 1998)

14) Eugene Fitzhugh: Whitewater defendant, pleaded guilty to one misdemeanor count of trying to bribe David Hale; is appealing a ten month prison sentence (The Arkansas Democrat-Gazette, "Whitewater Defendants" February 22, 1998)

15) Charles Matthews: Whitewater defendant, pleaded guilty to two misdemeanor counts of bribery, served fourteen months of a sixteen month prison sentence (The Arkansas Democrat-Gazette, "Whitewater Defendants" February 22, 1998)

So Ken Starr spent about 2 million per CONVICTION and so far Fitzgerald has spent around $1.25 million for a single indictment. --AND had Clinton not been President he would have been convicted for obstruction of justice and perjury too, making it 16 convictions.-- As as May 1998 2 more had hung juries and there were 6 more indictments.

The reason Ken Starr spent so much more money than Fitzgerald is that the Clinton administration was so corrupt. The moonbats want to talk about dollars spent per month. Wrong metric. If they want to talk bang for the buck, let's look at what a prosecutor produces - convictions.

But then Clinton supporters never want to talk about convictions do they?


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Comments (14)

Paul -- you're absolutely r... (Below threshold)
Earl:

Paul -- you're absolutely right that it's too early to say anything substantive about the difference between the two investigations. Who knows how much Fitzgerald will spend, and also who knows how many will be convicted. Given we don't know the outcome of the current investigation, it's premature to complain about its cost -- which is what you and some commenters had done. While I can't speak for everyone (especially the Kos crowd), for me the Starr investigation serves not as something to complain about, but simpy as a point of reference.

Good info Paul. While I kne... (Below threshold)
edmcgon:

Good info Paul. While I knew there were convictions which came out of Starr's investigation, I did not realize it was so many. It does make you wonder how all these associates of the Clintons got convicted, yet they got off clean.

Another factor is co-operat... (Below threshold)

Another factor is co-operation. The Clinton machine was mobilized to hobble the Starr investigations, and was a substantial factor in drawing out the time and expense required to determine the smallest details.
Remember, it all depends on what the definition of "is" is.

When considering why Judge ... (Below threshold)

When considering why Judge Starr took so long with his investigation, please do not also forget the amount of delays caused by President Clinton and his administration.

The number of challenges to the Supreme Court, alone, added consdierable costs. And who could forget the amount of time/effort spent trying to find the Rose Law Firm billing records, which were (apparently) in plain site.

The Kos moonbats always scr... (Below threshold)

The Kos moonbats always scream that the Starr Investigation was money spent to nail Clinton for a blowjob, they always seem to forget all those convictions that had nothing to do with Monica. They aren't sure what the definition of "was" is. They aren't sure what the definition of "dishonesty" is either, they think they are honest. They aren't and never have been.

Did Clinton's Whitewater cr... (Below threshold)
X.:

Did Clinton's Whitewater crimes transpire while he was President?

Is the Fitzgerald investigation over?

and how many people exactly... (Below threshold)
Fred:

and how many people exactly died as a result of Whitewater, BlueDressGate, . .. . etc.?

In my book, crime = crime (no politics).

Let's see what Fitzgerald drags up (or would you prefer to silence that effort?)

X,Yes. The investig... (Below threshold)

X,
Yes. The investigation was about Clinton and Co abusing the powers of the Presidency to conceal wrongdoings, (then) present and past. This included Whitewater, among other things.
Fred,
You appear to have missed Paul's point. He isn't saying Fitzgerald shouldn't investigate, or should stop, etc. He's pointing out that claiming Fitz is superior to Starr because of a smaller price tag is a BS arguement. The kind Armando and many of the Kos-kidz specialize in.

No Fred. It's Democrats wh... (Below threshold)
joe:
and how many people exac... (Below threshold)

and how many people exactly died as a result of Whitewater, BlueDressGate, . .. . etc.?

Well, there were some interestingly timed U.S. missile attacks in the Middle East during the Starr grand jury hearings. But the missile attacks were so ineffectual I think the grand total body count was one janitor.

I'm not sure that's a good thing.

Looking down the list, it s... (Below threshold)
robert:

Looking down the list, it strikes me again that the Clintons hang with a fairly shaky group and that the removal of a sitting Governor is no small deal.

When you add to this the firing of many Federal Prosecutors and the Travel Office, the investigations of several Cabinet Officials, the bags of cash from Chinese Generals, the Indonesian thing, the Saudi millions for the Library, the missile stuff switched from State to Commerce, the 1K to 100K beef futures miracle, the billing records debacle, and those pardons, yes let's not forget those pardons...yikes!

We should welcome any comparisons of this sort.

An important factor that ca... (Below threshold)
Chris:

An important factor that can't be overlooked is that there is virtually no oversight of the White House by the current Congress. It's not clear how much wrongdoing would be uncovered if anyone was actually looking into what the administration was up to. During Clinton's administration every move the White House made was scrutinized by a hostile Congress. There's a revealing article in Sunday's Boston Globe about the difference in the way the Clinton White House was scrutinized. In just one example, Congress took 140 hours of testimony into whether the Clintons used the White House Christmas card list to identify potential Democratic donors. The current Congress has taken 12 hours of testimony on Abu Ghraib. Now, I realize the Christmas card controversy is of more import than the question of whether we're torturing prisoners, but it still seems a little unbalanced.

And I haven't researched the entire list above, but it's clear from a cursory examination that the list partly resulted from Starr's willingness to continue widen his net. Jim Guy Tucker was convicted for a fraudulent cable TV deal, as was his business partner. The only connection the Clinton's had to the deal was that Starr uncovered it. If Fitzgerald discovers that Judith Miller is guilty of tax evasion, does that become one of a growing list of Bush scandals? Remember, Fitzgerald's investigation isn't over. And we've still got Abramoff and Scanlon and probably other surprises, as well.

Yo Chris,I hate to... (Below threshold)
robert:

Yo Chris,

I hate to break the news but the ghost of Fitzmas future is probably a bust too.

I know its just bad luck that most of Clinton's friends and business partners went to jail, but this too you want to blame on the Republicans?

Although the "They never would have caught me if it wasn't for..." defense is probably true, it is feeble. Ever hear of the press? They too out scandals and they have been trying to stick Abu Graib (23 levels below Bush), the Iraq "lies" and other things to Bush quite hard. So far nothing has worked, even when resorting to forged documents.

Here's one: how about providing all those justifications for that Marc Rich pardon?

You know Rich, he's the guy who got on the FBI most wanted list, then went on to star in the OFF scandal after the pardon (and the contribution to the Library). Yep, that one. A Republican-CIA plot?

Here's another: In what can only be described as naked graft, Hillary turned 1K into 100K in a three way deal with a broker-agent who lost his license over it (in spite of a million to one odds). Note I wrote three-way, the broker, the company and Hillary - no Republicans in on this one either.

You are in denial if you think that all Clinton's troubles were just crap thrown by Rebublicans, or no-meaning sex scandals. The truth is you folks on the left have the press and if there is anthing at all on Bush you read about it daily. So far, not much.

I could go on and on, but sometimes, as W.C. Fields would say: "You have to take the bull by the tail and face the situation."

From GSD, at www.firedoglak... (Below threshold)

From GSD, at www.firedoglake.blogspot.com
on the Crook & Liars Thread...........

The Republican congress has gutted oversight, so the ability to be a fair arbiter about presidential corruption is indeed tainted. Recent studies have shown that Democrats held far more investigations, even when Democrats were in the Whitehouse.

Do you think that if Hillary or Bill had huge personal gain from companies that were involved the Bosnia action that the Republican Congress would have looked the other way as they have done with Big Time Dick and Halliburton?

Also, a little refresher on some of the lates Republican scandals.

-Lewis Scooty-Poot Libby-5 indictments, perjury obtsruction of justice.

-Karl "Turdblosson" Rove-under investigation

-Larry Franklin DOD employee-pleaded out on espionage charges

-Leandro Aragoncillo, 46, was a U.S. Marine most recently assigned to the staff of Vice President Dick Cheney-arrested on spy allegations.

-David Safavian-Indicted and Resigned chief procurement officer for the Whitehouse-charges related to Abramoff Indian Massacre.

-Ken Tomlinson, CPB Chairman-Under investigation.

-Armstrong Williams-Engaged in illegal propaganda at the behest of this administration.

-Maggie Gallagher-propaganda allegations.

-Bernard Kerik-Scuttled nominee for DHS. Graft, including using an apartment slated for RR for 9/11 workers as a love tryst for his mistress.

These are just official incidents. There are allegations, recently made by Colonel Wilkerson that Big Time Dick Cheney could be guilty of warcrimes for his advocacy of torture. It should be noted that all treaties signed by the US are the law of the land. Despite Abu Gonzales' determinations that the Bush/Rove Junta can do whatever it wants..such as declaring adherence to the Geneva Conventions "quaint"...a law is a law buddy.

So, that is an offical wrap on the Executive Branch..notice I didn't even pile on Bush too hard.

-GSD
Granite State Destroyer




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