Hey Pennywit! Been meaning to catch up with you. How convenient that you're here. I'm headed to bed right now, so no time to respond in detail except to say that that whole thing about the Bush Christmas card is silliness.

I got one and the thing has a big, fat Bible verse as the first thing on the card. I thought it was actually a very polite way to send a card to everyone on the President's list, keeping in mind that not everyone celebrates Christmas, but still expressing the President's personal faith.

Oh, and it is far better to be trampled at a Christmas sale than a holiday sale. Silly secularist!

MK -- Great to see you, and congrats on the new job. Hope you're having a happy ... holiday ... season.

--|PW|--

What annoys me about O'Reilly the Pompass and the increasingly shrill WND is the fact that hyperbole on their part makes exposing the real efforts of Bowdlerizing the American public square of Judeo-Christian tradition easy to dismiss.

I'm reminded of the scene in Close Encounters of the 3rd Kind, where Richard Dryefus' character is trying to calmly and seriously tell the reporters about his experience and is suddenly upstaged by the crazy loon at the table.

Businesses have every right to craft their marketing plans as they see fit. Free enterprise and all, and others can point and laugh at their hypocrisy of asking people to buy but too tortured to name the reason why (wink wink y'all, it has something to do with that "C" word)..and in the case of Target, they ban the Salvation Army from their premises. Nice holiday spirit, dontcha know?

I'm certainly not offended if someone offers me a 'Happy Holiday' in a sincere gesture of warmth. I would just be annoyed if someone were instructed to say that in LIEU of "Merry Christmas"...as if the word "Christmas" was radioactive.

When overzealous principals, school boards, city managers, etc go out of their way to censor Christmas music, Christmas card exchanges, Christmas trees in firehouses, etc., then sooner or later there will be a push back.

Not that O'Reilly, ad nauseum, are at the forefront of "pushback"...naw, they are the opportunists to the footwork done by the rest of us. IMHO Farah is being a media whore in this regard and certainly the WaPo is eagerly drooling over to help out because it allows them to denigrate any legitimate questioning of efforts to de-Christianize the public square.

On pox on them all.

It's all getting very silly, it's true.

I think that holiday greetings should be determined by the greet-er rather than the greet-ee. For example... If I am celebrating Christmas I should be free to render a cheery "Merry Christmas!" without fear of inadvertant social error. If I receive a cheery holiday greeting from someone celebrating a holiday that I don't celebrate I should accept their good wishes and wish them the same.

Appreciating diversity ought to mean that we can express that diversity rather than make everything into a bland sameness.

Hey...Merry Christmas everyone!

(you got a problem with that, bub?)

Clay -- X-Men 3 doesn't come out until next year.

--|PW|--

It's Christmas, not generic "holiday". I can see the point about separation of Church and state. What I can't see is a school taking down a giving tree or abolishing the colors green and red from November to January first.

There are legitimate issues, but a lot of bonehead administrators and teachers take it way further than it needs.

Merry Christmas,

VW

JESUS CHRIST HAS REMOVED HIS BLESSING FROM AMERICA BECAUSE OF THE AMERINAZIS. THIS HAPPENS WHEN A COUNTRY BECOMES SO THOROUGHLY CORRUPT THAT IT BEGINS VIOLATING THE LORD'S LAWS FLAGRANTLY. AMERICA'S LAST HALF DOZEN WARS HAVE BEEN WAGED PRIMARILY TO BOOST A PRESIDENT'S APPROVAL RATINGS. THOSE ARE UNJUST WARS, AND EVERYBODY KILLED IN THEM IS A MURDER VICTIM. PLUS, LOOK AT WHAT A DEN OF THIEVES THE AMERICAN MARKETPLACE HAS BECOME. AMERICA IS SOON TO BE TOPPLED, MUCH THE SAME AS THE FIRST NAZI NATION, GERMANY, WAS WHEN THEY WENT TOO FAR. MARK MY WORDS. http://www.mixposure.com/song.php?songid=14027.

AND BE A MAN. POST THIS COMMENT.

I guess REAL MEN USE ALL CAPS!!!!

Words marked.

;-)

Dean, does that mean that Nazi Germany had Jesus' blessing for a while, but then they went too far?

Yeah, I really dug the Nazis until they jumped the shark and Jesus brought the smackdown (in Indiana Jones anyway).

Hey Pennywit, I know you lefties don't understand this because it's one of those pesky things that don't enter into your thought processes, called a FACT, but Bill O'Reilly's show isn't news and he's not an anchor. It's not even called a news show. It's an opinion show, much like the rest of those of shows that claim to be news, but at least he doesn't call it news. He's the HOST of the O'Reilly Factor. You really need to rethink that price, a penny is still far too much for what little wit comes out when you type.

Hmmm.

There is a concerted effort at removing Christmas, and every other Christian holiday, from the public awareness. Consider Easter. Once it involved Jesus. Now it's all about a rabbit.

And I'll point out that the holiday is in fact Christmas. It's timed for Christmas. It was named Christmas for many years, evidently being in existence for years is good for Roe but not for Christmas.

Frankly I'm not a Christian but I can definitely see the effort going on to stamp out every last trace of Christianity from America.

There is a concerted effort at removing Christmas, and every other Christian holiday, from the public awareness. Consider Easter. Once it involved Jesus. Now it's all about a rabbit.

It's always been about the rabbit, man. The rabbit and the eggs. Fertility and birth were and are major themes in the springtime in many many cultures. They adopted the pagan spring festival, called it the birth of Jesus, kept many of the pagan symbols, and whammo, Easter.

And I'll point out that the holiday is in fact Christmas. It's timed for Christmas. It was named Christmas for many years, evidently being in existence for years is good for Roe but not for Christmas.

What about New Years? It's a federal holiday only a week after Christmas. Plus this year Hannukah starts on Christmas night. Sounds to me like Happy Holidays makes a lot of sense, or should store clerks all say Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, Happy Hannukah, and/or Happy Kwanzaa to you sir, would you like that wrapped?

Frankly I'm not a Christian but I can definitely see the effort going on to stamp out every last trace of Christianity from America.

Frankly I used to be a Christian and I can see no effort to stamp out christianity from America, just deluded paranoiacs. Please, show me which church has been closed or which Christian group has been oppressed in this effort to stamp out christianity?

Yeah. Put the christ back in trampling. err, christampling.

I think Jesus actually said not to give a crap about anything in this world, only the next. So, instead of giving your children the toy they wanted, tell them to worry about what's going to happen when they die. Give the gift of Jesus. Merry Christmas!

I'm sorry, but the 'Holidays' exists because of Christmas. Channukah never had the emphasis it does now until recent times. Kwanza was flat out invented.

Christmas for a long time had a purely secularized side which was religious safe. 'Santa' & 'good will towards men' are elements of this secular side. However they have their roots in Christianity. (You'll notice Santa is almost as rare as the word Christmas now). So they can't be tolerated anylonger.

The convention was to wish people 'Merry Christmas' for the longest time. Switching to 'Happy Holidays' is just an part of the attempt to erase Christianity from America. Essentially the ongoing war on Christianity.

If you don't think there is one, tell me what would happen if I had an art exhibit with the picture of a Kuran in a pale of urine. Meanwhile, a crucifix in a jar of urine is art and is allowed enough 'controversy' to give an otherwise unimaginative piece of art unwarranted free press.

But the 'War on Christianity' is actually a disguise for a different war. Its the war on American culture & values. From about 500 AD to 1950, Western Culture was tied to Christianity. But the reverse is also true.

The American legal system is part of that legacy. Our system of government is also tied to that legacy. Even our sense of 'tolerance' was eventually instilled in our culture, albeit later, because of Christianity (turn the other cheek, Good Samaritan, Gentile inclusion into what was originally cast as a Jewish sect, etc...). Our government is quite similar to the Roman Republic in the ideal of division of powers as well has having an exective branch. Why do we have such a link to the Roman Empire? Because of Christianity. Where America stands now (or maybe where it stood) with its Traditional American Values now called Conservative Values are tied to this legacy.

Because people have been so programmed to resent or reject religion including those who still hold Traditional Western/American Values, a War on those values is given cover by alluding to be just a 'War on Christianity'. But the 'War on Christianity' is only part of the War on Western/American Values and Culture. The same culture that couldn't co-exist with Communism (trust me, there are people who still have heartburn over what happened to their Great Red Hope).

Quite clever actually. Christmas is attacked in the name of the misuse of the cliche of 'seperation of church & state' and inclusiveness. But really its an attack on Christianity. But the attack on Christianity is really an attack on Traditional Western/American Values which is a stubbling block to everything the Left holds dear.

Bullwinkle:

Two short notes about O'Reilly:

1) Even if he isn't a "news" reporter per se, he nevertheless works for "Fox News" (note the capitalization) and is therefore part of the news business.

2) An "anchor" can be any person who sits in the studio during a news show (incl. commentary) and is the Main Man during broadcast. Jon Stewart? Anchor. Bill O'Reilly? Anchor. Me? Weighs as much as an anchor.

--|PW|--

A plethora of responses.

First, to those who posted "Merry Christmas," directed ostensibly at me, knowing that I am a secularist. Did you do so because of actual good wishes or in order to antagonize me? And if you did so in order to antagonize me, is that in keeping with the Christmas spirit?

Dean Berry: A serious case of CAPSLOCK disease. I'd go see a doctor if I were you.

Darleen: I don't know if I'd accuse the Post of being part of a war on Christmas. More like some humbugs trying to get a little facetime, and reporters looking for a juicy conflict story willing to give it to them.

VW: I'll certainly go along with you as far as the "taking down decorations" and whatnot at schools, but I'm not sure public schools should have sanctioned, explicit Christmas celebrations, particularly considering the religious makeup of a number of school districts. Interestingly, there's one district in my area where Muslim families are pushing for the schools to adopt a couple Muslim holidays as days off from school. Methinks they have a good case -- but probably best decided at the school board meeting, not the courtroom.

Ed: I don't know if there's a war on Christmas so much as a more generalized effort to be inclusive in a rapidly diversifying American culture.

JPM: Hanukkah, methinks, gained the emphasis it has not because of Christmas, per se, but rather the commercialism around Christmas and the desire to sell to yet another group.

I want to inject one final thing: this piece, about interfaith families, written by an op-edder in yesterday's USA Today. Enjoy.

Finally, I'd like to reiterate one of my earlier questions. From what I understand of Christianity, the most important element of the evangelical strain is accepting Christ into your heart and maintaining a personal relationship with God. So, how does public ratification of the holiday affect one's personal worship and celebration?

--|PW|--

I find it curious that it's all right wing supporters that are actually going for "happy holidays", and announcing it, practically screaming from the rooftops, "I'm not celebrating CHRISTmas, because liberals won't let me!". I wonder why they would do something seemingly counterintuitive, become their own enemy, in a way. And make such a big deal about it. orielly definitely got the memo. This is a hot story! what do you think, wolf blitzer? Is the evangelical group ready with their outrage over this atrocity? Aren't liberals horrible? they hold nothing sacred!

Yeah, the democrats are making Wal-mart change their greeting. And they even picked out the card that Bush would be sending out. Give me a break.

Whatever gets your poll numbers up, I guess. But please direct your disgust where it belongs. To whatver evil bastard would unleash a plot like this during christmas.

To everyone but Pennywit, Merry Christmas!

If that offends you, then lighten up and take it in the spirit it was intended.

And if that statement offends you, please stop breathing.

From about 500 AD to 1950, Western Culture was tied to Christianity.

With the oh so minor exception of The Enlightenment.

The same culture that couldn't co-exist with Communism

Uh huh,

ACTS 4: 32 Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common.

ACTS 4:34-35 For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales and lay them at the apostles' feet, and they would be distributed to each as any had need.

WEll my liberal, secularist friends, it appears they're on to our plot to do away with christians. So I say, let's drop the charade, round them up, and send them to prisons in Iowa!

mantis writes:

I can see no effort to stamp out christianity from America,

The ACLU has a strikeforce that runs around the country examining city and county seals for the dreaded instrument of torture (aka the Cross) and in SLAPP style tactics threatens said municipalities to removed the IoT or face lawsuits (ie LA County, city of Redlands). The AUSCS threatens Gov. Jeb Bush with a lawsuit because he had the gall to get school kids interested in reading by tieing a reading contest in with the release of the movie Chronicles of Narnia by that fascist Christian CS Lewis.

Need some more?

Steve J

re: Acts4 34-35

You do know the difference between people with the freedom of conscience to do with their own property what they wish...

and people in a totalitarian system that tells them they HAVE NO right to property AND they exist only at the pleasure of the "proletariat" (or Allah only as interpreted by mullahs)?

Personally, I'm tired of the PC bullshit. It's Christmas fer Christ's sake. My company used to have Christmas Parties (since Christmas IS a corporate holiday).

All it took was one non-Christian asshole to whine about the "Christmas Party" and it turned into a "Winter Celebration".

Who the hell celebrates Winter? It makes me sick, all the hoops companies go through to NOT offend such a small minority, but in doing so make a large portion of the majority pissed off.

My company used to have Christmas Parties (since Christmas IS a corporate holiday).

All it took was one non-Christian asshole to whine about the "Christmas Party" and it turned into a "Winter Celebration".

Yup, same thing happened at my company a few years back. It was one Michael Newdow-type guy who hated Christianity as his own personal crusade and he pitched a hissy fit to HR and bango, they changed it.

Playing the grievance card. It's just not for minorities any more.

In my area (D.C.), a pure Christmas party is probably not a good thing at the office, as any given workplace is likely to have at least a significant minority (10 percent or more) of Muslims or others who don't celebrate Christmas.

--|PW|--

Christmas has been big business for years--ever since Coca Cola invented the jolly old, red-suited, fat guy. In the "True Spirit of Capitalism" what they really should be saying at WalMart and every other store this time of year is "Happy Spending".

Playing the grievance card. It's just not for minorities any more.

True that! Now it's for whiny christians too!

They adopted the pagan spring festival, called it the birth of Jesus, kept many of the pagan symbols, and whammo, Easter.

Y'wanna revisit that, by chance? "Birth of Jesus" ... "whammo, Easter"?

Everybody knows Easter celebrates the birth of Moses. Jeez!

A question for Pennywitless: what the *&(^ is a "devout secularist"? I will give you my take on what one is after "it's".

Darleen,

Well, I was referring to the whole "War on Christmas" business when I wrote that, but I'll bite. The groups you refer to there are, as I see it, trying to keep religion out of government, and they have very good cause to do so. I will admit that they take it too far sometimes, fighting to remove what are traditional and harmless symbols (such as crosses on county seals).

What I won't admit, however, is that this is an effort to "stamp out Christianity in America". First of all, the only institutions these groups go after for promoting religion are government institutions, which last I checked shouldn't really be in the business of promoting any religion. Second, how do the cross on the L.A. County seal or "In God We Trust" on currency really affect Christianity in this country, whether they're there or not? Will Christians stop going to church if the cross isn't on their county's seal? Will they all become heathens and devil worshippers?

It's clear you like to play around with words like "strikeforce" as if these people were kicking down doors and taking people's bibles away for a bonfire instead of what they really are, a small group of lawyers who work within the boundaries of our legal system (horrors!).

Even if people did want to rid this country of Christianity (and there may be some, who knows), it would be such a ridiculously futile endeavor it is laughable to even consider. Consider all the lions and crucifixes they would have to go through in dispatching 85% of the population!

Where I live (in the heart of liberal Chicago), I am within walking distance of about a dozen Christian churches, two Christian bookstores, I can listen to a number of Christian oriented radio stations, and I have to flip past several Christian TV stations on my way my customary evil secularist fare. I hear about Jesus daily from a couple of evangelicals at work (not to mention the bible thumpers walking around campus), and there's a big ass Jesus Saves sign visible from my apartment. Nobody is trying to remove any of this Christianity from my neighborhood.

We do not, however, have the ten commandments posted in our courthouses or a cross on our county seal. Yet there are still Christians all over the place! Call the strikeforce!

Y'wanna revisit that, by chance? "Birth of Jesus" ... "whammo, Easter"?

Oops, I meant death and resurrection of our Lord Christ, salvation of all mankind. Sorry. It's been a while since I cared about these holidays.