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What happens when terrorists win

When it became clear that Hamas had won the recent Palestinian elections, a lot of apologists said that it would have a moderating influence on the terrorist organization. That once they found themselves holding the reins of power, and responsible for all aspects of governing, they would step up to their responsibilities and somehow become reasonable and suitable partners for peace.

Others of us sadly shook our heads and waited for the inevitable. Flush with victory, we fully expected Hamas to at least continue their over-the-top behavior, if not to ratchet it up even more.

And we didn't have long to wait.

Will Hamas continue its terrorist war against Israel? Yes.

Will they escalate their demands even further? Hell, yes!

First, they are demanding that Israel change its flag. They say that the blue stripes -- intended to visually echo a Jewish prayer shawl -- symbolize the Euphrates and Nile Rivers, and represent a Jewish desire for a land stretching between the two. Never mind that Israel once held the west bank of the Nile, and gave it back at Camp David. And never mind that Hamas doesn't recognize the Israeli government, so they are making demands of a body they say doesn't legitimately exist. Hamas says it means what they say it means, and those pesky Jews better do what they say, or else.

Next, in an attempt to out-extreme Hamas, Fatah is now demanding that their land stretch from the Jordan to the sea -- a poetic way of saying that they intend to destroy the state of Israel. (What IS it about these people and their water-to-water imagery? Are they trying to play off the "from sea to shining sea" theme from the US?) At the end of the article, a Fatah spokeman says this goal is shared with Hamas, and I don't foresee Hamas issuing a statement saying that Fatah's incorrect.

Finally, one of the recurring themes of those of us who oppose the Islamists (I find "Islamofascists" a bit too cumbersome and clumsy a term) is that the Islamists believe that any land that was once held by Muslims is forever Muslim. Territory taken in conquest by Islam can never be made free again; no matter how forcefully the Islamic rule is overthrown, it is always and forever Islamic land.

This is usually pooh-poohed as neocon hysteria. But Hamas is publicly announcing this belief, and they're starting with Seville, Spain. Never mind that the city was Spanish up until 711, and has been Spanish since 1492. It was Muslim for almost 800 years, so it's Muslim forever.

Tie this precedent in with a history of lands once conquered by Muslims (all of the Middle East and large chunks of Europe), as well as all those utterly-unfounded claims of great Muslim explorers "discovering" the Americas, and you have a rationale for Islamic conquest of the world.

But I'm sure I'm just being a hysterical Neocon. After all, how could I disagree with such worthies as President Carter?


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Comments (38)

Apparently the Palestinians... (Below threshold)
LJD:

Apparently the Palestinians, along with the Iranians and Syrians, have been watching too much CNN. They think we are too far stretched, and because of Iraq, do not have the will to smack them into reality. They think they can rattle their scimitars, develop weapons, support terror with impunity.
I think they underestimate us, as they do the resolve of the international community, after their utter failure on Iraq. A very dark time is ahead of us. We will prevail only if the left realizes that we are not the bad guys here.
Watch and wait. The ME will self destruct regardless of the olive branches we extend. We could plant a grove for them and still get the same response...


Democracy is good - for the... (Below threshold)
Amphipolis:

Democracy is good - for the long term. This election result was good in the same way. It clearly shows that the Palestinians themselves are not interested in peace, and that they want Israel exterminated. Now there is no doubt, and the true state of Palestinian public opinion that has been hidden by the media and by disingenuous Palestinian mouthpieces is exposed to the world. Now the world will (hopefully) act decisively to show the Palestinian people that they have been paid to live in a fantasy world all these years. There are no more excuses for them.

Reality bites.

Too bad the descendants of ... (Below threshold)
Robert:

Too bad the descendants of the Romans claim all the lands held by the Roman Empire.

Isn't it the west bank of t... (Below threshold)
Phinn:

Isn't it the west bank of the Jordan River, rather than the Nile?

Phinn,Remember tha... (Below threshold)
JohnAnnArbor:

Phinn,

Remember that after 1967, Israel occupied all of the Sinai, up to the canal. Not quite the Nile, but close.

Hmmm.Frankly I hea... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

Frankly I heartily approve of Hamas having won the election. Not because it shows Hamas's true colors. Not because any act of violence is now an Act of War instead of some misguided terrorists. Ahem. "activist".

No because now Hamas has to make the trains run on time. The garbage has to be picked up. The sewers unplugged. The electricty on. The water running. The schools stocked and the teachers paid.

Winning an election or gaining power isn't governing, as many Islamists found out in Iraq. Taking control doesn't automatically make every idiot decision into a wise one. So far, in just about every instance, anytime an Islamists groups takes control everything just goes to hell in a very rapid way.

In a number of Iraqi towns, who were very pro-terrorist, once the Islamists took over they became overbearing bullies intent on doing whatever the hell they wanted without any regard for the residents. In short order they annoyed, anger or outraged the residents of those cities because nothing worked and even the markets couldn't operate because the Islamists interfered with everything.

I fully expect this model to hold out.

Actually Palestinian milita... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

Actually Palestinian militants marching in the streets, have more pressing concerns than Israel. The first country they have declared war on is ...(get ready for it) Denmark

Hmmm.A case in poi... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

A case in point courtesy of the Washington Times.

link

And best of all? You can fully expect to have every single Fatah member doing anything and everything they can to throw a monkey wrench into the governance by Hamas. Things will break, and break often, with willful intent. I seriously doubt it would escalate into terrorism, though factional gunfights will probably happen, but a slow low-key sort of civil disobedience.

In short. Hamas has to govern, and Fatah is going to make their lives a living hell.

Man is this going to be amusing!

Ed has it right. Having Ha... (Below threshold)
Mark L.:

Ed has it right. Having Hamas run the PA is a feature, not a bug. It turns terrorism into an act of war, and allows Israel to go into the PA, and clean house when it happens.

Wait for the first round of terrorist attacks, launch an invasion of the PA, kill anyone associated with Hamas when they do not surrender double-quick, destroy anything of military value, then leave. Rinse and repeat as often as necessary.

Won't take two cycles to play itself out. No one is going to intervene either. Syria does not want to get the US involved. The Jordanian king has his own axe to grind towards the Palestinian movement, and Egypt does not care.

Sorry, but I don't buy the ... (Below threshold)
Lurking Observer:

Sorry, but I don't buy the optimism.

The Left, both here and in Europe, will never hold Hamas (or the PA, for that matter) responsible for anything.

Economy's not working? It's b/c Israel won't tear down the wall and allow the Palestinians to go about freely in Israel.

Bombings continue? It's b/c Israel won't give them jobs, and the US won't give them aid, and besides, what do you expect of a people who don't have F-16s and Apache attack helicopters.

Attacks continue? Hey, it's not suicide bombings. [Boom!] Most of the time.

Israel responds? Why couldn't Israel show more forebearance?

Israel attacks into Gaza? Israeli actions are illegal, and are an overreaction to "regrettable" incidents by "unknown elements" in Gaza.

Israel declares war? Israel is the aggressor.


Anybody care to bet that this won't be the course of responses from the Left, European governments, etc., etc.?

Hmmmm.Any... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

Anybody care to bet that this won't be the course of responses from the Left, European governments, etc., etc.?

Of course that'll happen, which is why I'm not counting on any sort of Israeli military action accomplishing anything. If it does, then that's a bonus. What I'm counting on is Hamas becoming marginalised and discredited because they are unable to effectively govern.

Excusing mismanagement, and even outright sabotage by Fatah, by blaming Israel works only so far. At some point people will want the tap water to flow and the toilets to flush.

"Never mind that Israel onc... (Below threshold)
John:

"Never mind that Israel once held the west bank of the Nile, and gave it back at Camp David."

Jay - I think you meant to say they held the east bank of the Suez canal - i.e. the Sinai peninsula. Still, your analysis is right on.

Flash back!"Much h... (Below threshold)
jp2:

Flash back!

"Much has already been forgotten about the origins of The Bush Doctrine. With hopes for freedom rippling throughout the Middle East it is perhaps instructive to look back to the The 2002 State of the Union Address, best remembered for introducing the "axis of evil," delivered four months after 9/11."

"Slowly, very slowly, a few on the left are starting to understand that Bush has been right all along...As democracy puts down its first fragile roots in the middle east, you have to wonder which ideology these people subscribe to."

lol

The real question though - will you be posting any pictures of Hamas babes?

My take: this wasn't even d... (Below threshold)
Rankin:

My take: this wasn't even democracy at work. Much like Saddam's or the USSR's "Elections" there was no legitimate CHOICE. Fatah or Hamas, some choice. We all know had anyone tried to start a classicly liberal political party or one that advocated recognition of Israel and Peace NOW, that person would have been shot, publicly by the Al Aqsa Martyr Brigades, Hamas or any number of other extremist groups which have hijacked Palestinian politics. I somehow doubt if Republicans were outlawed here, and elections were held between lefties and moonbats, we'd consider that a fair choice, either.

Can't wait for Israel to bo... (Below threshold)
moseby:

Can't wait for Israel to bomb those ay-rabs back to the stone-age...oh wait...they're already there.

Rankin,Do you even... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Rankin,

Do you even know anything about the political parties of the Palestinian Territories? There is a party there that advocates recognition of the state of Israel, it's called Fatah. Further, there were far more than two choices on the ballot in the election last week. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the Palestinian People's Party, the Palestine Democratic Union, and National Coalition for Justice and Democracy all ran in one form or another and received about 10% of the vote altogether. Political parties are not outlawed there. There were many choices. The majority of Palestinians chose Hamas.

I can understand when people who tout democracy as the only possible political system for all countries everywhere have to grasp at reasons why elections don't turn out the way they want, such as "that wasn't even democracy at work". But sorry, it was, and the terrorists won. I guess we'll have to wait and see what they do with it.

Mantis, how many of the par... (Below threshold)

Mantis, how many of the parties you mention don't have clear ties to terrorism?

The Hamas victory is good n... (Below threshold)
K:

The Hamas victory is good news. It will clarify a lot of issues. Fatah would never take a stand, never fail to take a bribe, and flim-flamed the world for decades.

Hamas will now be split. On one side will the visible Hamas - those who want the foreign money, the bribes, and the nice government jobs enough to at least pretend. On the other side will be the old hard liners.

We can expect Israel to hurt the Visibles when the hard liners continue terrorism. And the hard liners will hurt the Visibles if they deal with Israel. Sounds tough for the Visibles!

However the Visibles will have the reins of government and international funding. They cannot hide from Israel as before, so many will decide better an Israel than the abyss.

The Fatah would be well advised to disband, consult with their Swiss bankers, and be as far away as possible for at least a year. It they ally with Hamas to keep a few government jobs they will be blamed for whatever Hamas does. Oh, Hamas will slowly kill them off anyway.

Mantis, how many of the ... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Mantis, how many of the parties you mention don't have clear ties to terrorism?

Depends on what you mean by "clear ties", but my guess is just the last one. Wouldn't matter anyway, it's a coalition government.

JT, obviously you had nothi... (Below threshold)
clr:

JT, obviously you had nothing to write and thought to yourself, let's bash the Palestineans again! My, you are a bitter little man. If the shoe was on the other foot, and you were to demonise the Israelis with the same vitriol that you bash the Palestineans, charges of anti semitist and Nazi would be levelled against you. Pipe down, move on and if you have nothing good to say, say nothing! Empty vessels make the most noise and in your case the noise is deafening

Great!... (Below threshold)
clrjk:

Great!

If the shoe was... (Below threshold)

If the shoe was on the other foot, and you were to demonise the Israelis with the same vitriol that you bash the Palestineans, charges of anti semitist and Nazi would be levelled against you.

Perhaps that's because Israel's government is not only not a famous terrorist group, but actually tries to avoid killing innocent people wherever possible. If you can't see the difference, I'm very very sorry for you.

Pipe down, move on and if you have nothing good to say, say nothing! Empty vessels make the most noise and in your case the noise is deafening.

You're making a whole lot of noise there with very little substance yourself. Gotta love moral equivalency, it allows you to say the most asinine things while pretending to have the moral high ground.

If the shoe was on... (Below threshold)
Jay Tea:
If the shoe was on the other foot, and you were to demonise the Israelis with the same vitriol that you bash the Palestineans, charges of anti semitist and Nazi would be levelled against you.

Perhaps, clr. But the key word is "if." That makes it clear it's a hypothetical -- and an utterly impossible one. Because as Nicholas beat me to saying, the idea that Israel's government acting like Hamas is almost inconceivable. They have a history of going to great lengths to avoid killing innocents, almost as great lengths as Hamas goes to avoid attacking combatants (who have a pesky habit of fighting back) and deliberately targeting innocents.

Sometimes, after a terror attack, I find myself wishing that for 48 hours or so, Israel will act exactly as they are accused of acting, and unleash their full military power in striking back. "Might as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb" and all that.

Then the rage subsides, and I know Israel will never do that. Because Israel is a civilized nation, a people with a conscience.

Maybe someday we can say the same about the Palestinians. I sincerely hope so.

J.

I find myself wishing th... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

I find myself wishing that for 48 hours ...Then the rage subsides, and I know Israel will never do that. Because Israel is a civilized nation, a people with a conscience...Jay, be careful what you wish for, your wishes may be granted .In this case your wishes were granted. Perhaps your memory so short or selective that I will remind you and your readers the man judged responsible for allowing the eviseration of hundreds of innocent children and women has been hailed by Bush as ' a man of peace' But then Israeli leaders being civilized would never do that..Many of your previous posts have suggested that those that knowingly permit savagery to take place are just as responsible as the individual perpetrators..How does this square with your admiration for Israel a civilized nation ? Is Sharon your 'man of peace' as well?

JTThank you for re... (Below threshold)
clrjk:

JT

Thank you for responding, but here in lies the problem. Your hatred of all things Palestinean blinds you to the real problems of the Middle East. Ask yourself this question. If a nation of people (the Palestineans) are kept impoverished, uneducated and treated with derision and contempt, have finally decided that they have little to live for, and nothing to fight with, but their own bodies, then surely Israel and its supporters must question their own conscience.

I do not support the suicide bombers and their tactics, but I see little difference in a suicide bomber and a helicopter gunship, both have the same aim, death and destruction, the difference being that one side are prepared to lay down their own lives. Sad is it not, but then maybe in Cow, New Hampshire, things are perceived in a diffrent light.

As a matter of interest and I fully respect your right to anonymity, but how old are you J? Are you well travelled? Or has the internet furnished you with you with your facts, figures and opinions?

It's very telling that you ... (Below threshold)

It's very telling that you think the Palestinians are made impoverished and uneducated by some external party. They're not - it's a conscious choice. They could do what the Jews have done every time they've been murdered, persecuted and treated like crap - made the best of it, or gone somewhere else where they were treated better (for a while, before it happens to them again).

In fact, I think you'll find those Palestinians who renounce the terror are able to do OK living/working in Israel, with pretty much the same rights as anyone else. They're probably subject to more searches than anyone else - but whose fault is that? In fact, if they had accepted the various sincere peace offers from Israel, in the spirit of the peace they made with Egypt, they would not be in the dire situation that they are now. But as much as some of they may want the peace, there are always rotten eggs that refuse to co-operate.

You see no difference between a suicide bomber and a helicopter gunship? Well, I do. A helicopter gunship can take out a car with a terrorist leader in it, using a Hellfire missile with a reduced size warhead, killing the occupants of the car but nobody else. Suicide bombers tend to be a lot more messy, taking out women, children and whoever else happens to be in the nightclub or cafe at the time of detonation.

Israel is not a perfect angel country (who is?) but they're far from equivalent to a people who just don't seem to want to try for anything other than violence. What has been the Palestinians' typical response to reasonable offers of peace - far better ones than they could expect from most parties - isn't it typically an intifada campaign of terror? How's that going to lead to any significant progress?

By the way, I feel very sor... (Below threshold)

By the way, I feel very sorry for the Palestinians (or Philistines or whomever they are) but whinging about it isn't going to get them anywhere. They need to stop being like a lot of the other people in the Middle East, stop blaming someone else for their problems, and pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. And stop being so violent. While they are violent they are never going to get anywhere. You try negotiating with a fractured terrorist organization - if you can't believe any of their promises, how can you make any kind of progress?

I used to think that 90% of them were just regular people who got a raw deal and 10% of them were violent idiots who ruined it for everyone else. Since Hamas won the election I'm starting to think I had it backwards. It's hard to feel sorry for people who put their weight behind what are, by our standards, barbaric practices.

This whole situation would have been a whole lot better in the long run if they had complied with the UN directives to form Israel back in 1948 or whenever it was. I wonder if they could see then what would happen to them now whether they would have chosen a different course. That's the power of hindsight I suppose.

Steve Crickmore - I assume you're talking about Ariel Sharon - if you have any credibility you know that there's no evidence that he was responsible for the Phlangist massacre. Whether he had any idea what would happen, nobody will probably know. Based on his record, I don't think so. But we can never prove it either way, so I suggest you don't make unprovable claims.

I sincerely hope that Hamas... (Below threshold)
Hepzi:

I sincerely hope that Hamas will evolve as Sein Fein has in Ireland---slowly agonizingly from a terrorist organization to a political one. It has taken two generations. I pray it goes that fast in Palestine but I doubt it.

I hope that Hamas will evol... (Below threshold)
Hepzi:

I hope that Hamas will evolve analogous to Sein Fein in Ireland---slowly, agonizingly from terrorist thugs to political party. It has taken two generations (I think!). I pray it goes this quickly in Palestine but I doubt it.

But perhaps Ireland is a model to analyze and study.

What was anyone expecting? ... (Below threshold)
Icerigger:

What was anyone expecting? These are Muslims following the Quran and Hadiths, which call for world domination. The West needs to wake up and realize that Islam is imperial by its very nature. That is, what Muhammad's example calls for.

Anyone that white washes this is ether on their side or they simply do not know the history and foundation of Islam. Nor do they understand the history and Quranic Surahs that require our conversion, death or dhimmitude (social slaves paying a 50% tax jizyah (a poll tax applied to non-muslims) to the Mullahs).

Is this how you and your children want to live? I didn't think so.

Mantis, how many of the ... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Mantis, how many of the parties you mention don't have clear ties to terrorism?

Depends on what you mean by "clear ties", but my guess is just the last one. Wouldn't matter anyway, it's a coalition government.

A coalition of terrorists, yes.

A coalition of terrorist... (Below threshold)
mantis:

A coalition of terrorists, yes.

Well, that was my point. Any small party in the territories would have to ally itself with either Fatah or Hamas in coalition. Therefore it is impossible for any Palestinian political party to participate in its governance without being associated with terrorists (or at least those who were once terrorists).

What is your point, or do you just like saying "terrorists" a lot? Maybe you would be more comfortable with the "ocean of glass" folks over at LGF?

Steve Crickmore - I assu... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Steve Crickmore - I assume you're talking about Ariel Sharon - if you have any credibility you know that there's no evidence that he was responsible for the Phlangist massacre. Whether he had any idea what would happen, nobody will probably know. Based on his record, I don't think so. But we can never prove it either way, so I suggest you don't make unprovable claims.

Come on. The Israeli Kahan Commission itself found Sharon to be personally responsible, and he was summarily dismissed as Defense Minister, and barred from holding public office again (that didn't work out). The report, which does lay responsibility on Sharon (and others), was criticized even in Israel as being to lenient.

A few relevant paragraphs from the commission's report:

The Minister of Defense, Mr. Ariel Sharon

We have found, as has been detailed in this report, that the Minister of Defense bears personal responsibility.

...

But in our view, even without such warning, it is impossible to justify the Minister of Defense's disregard of the danger of a massacre. We will not repeat here what we have already said above about the widespread knowledge regarding the Phalangists' combat ethics, their feelings of hatred toward the Palestinians, and their leaders' plans for the future of the Palestinians when said leaders would assume power. Besides this general knowledge, the Defense Minister also had special reports from his not inconsiderable [number of] meetings with the Phalangist heads before Bashir's assassination.

Giving the Phalangists the possibility of entering the refugee camps without taking measures for continuous and concrete supervision of their actions there could have created a grave danger for the civilian population in the camps even if they had been given such a possibility before Bashir's assassination; thus this danger was certainly to have been anticipated - and it was imperative to have foreseen it - after Bashir's assassination.

...

It is our view that responsibility is to be imputed to the Minister of Defense for having disregarded the danger of acts of vengeance and bloodshed by the Phalangists against the population of the refugee camps, and having failed to take this danger into account when he decided to have the Phalangists enter the camps. In addition, responsibility is to be imputed to the Minister of Defense for not ordering appropriate measures for preventing or reducing the danger of massacre as a condition for the Phalangists' entry into the camps. These blunders constitute the non-fulfillment of a duty with which the Defense Minister was charged.

Do talk about credibility some more, though. It's amusing.

Back off on the hype... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:


Back off on the hyperbole, you're frothing. ;)
My point was that even without Hamas and Fatah, the bulk of the parties on the ballot were tied to terrorism.
My question about all of this is, how much time will they spend purging and purifing the ranks before they all agree on the best way to kill the jews? And when they decide, how much of Palestine will still be left to them?

My point was that even w... (Below threshold)
mantis:

My point was that even without Hamas and Fatah, the bulk of the parties on the ballot were tied to terrorism.

Ok, no argument there. However, I think it's important to consider that there are varying degrees of strength and scope of these ties among the different parties, and that among those choices the Palestinian majority went with a group that has stronger ties than some of the others, including Fatah. This can be seen as a setback or an opportunity, which brings me to your question.

Is it better to decide that the ties to terrorism among the Palestinian political parties make them all de facto terrorists, and therefore that anything they do in the future must be condemned, or to encourage movements towards disarming and reducing terrorism in hopes of peaceful resolution? What if Hamas could become another Sinn Féin? There are still many people in the UK who condemn that group for its ties to IRA terrorists, but it seems clear to me that despite those ties the past decade or so has seen a significant reduction in violence and better relationships with England, in no small part due to the participation of Sinn Féin.

Now I don't know if Hamas will reform, or how long such reform would take, but it seems to me that if you condemn all Palestinian political parties, and thereby all Palestinians, you are left with few options (hence the "ocean of glass"). Are there options I'm missing, from your viewpoint?

The fact that Ariel Sharon ... (Below threshold)
Proud Kaffir:

The fact that Ariel Sharon was removed from duty for possibly failing to protect Palestinian civilians (who probably desire the extermination of the Jewish race) shows the difference between the Israelis and the Palestinians. When was the last time that a Palestinian leader ws held accountable for attacking Israeli civilians? They are lauded as heroes for killing Jewish civilians. Can anyone imagine a Palestinian offical being dismissed from duty for failing to protect Jewish civilians? If you even mentioned the scenerio to them, they would laugh hysterically in your face.

Both Sharon and Yasser Arafat were in effect given a second chance to re-emerge as statesmen. Sharon evacuated settlements, while Arafat supported terrorism, or failed to lift a finger to stop it (when was he dismissed?)

This moral equivalency is the biggest failing of the radical left. The Palestinians have been offered a state and heavy financial support repeatedly, but instead desire the massacre of all the Jews. They have no one to blame but themselves for their situation.

Even if all the Jews and Christians disappeared from Israel tomorrow with the land taken by the Palestinians, it is a myth to assume they would be prosperous. The Israelis brought prosperity to a barren desert land with their hard work and ingenuity. The Palestinians would still be living in poverty, backwards technologically, economically, and politically, still engaged in blaming the West and the Jews for all their problems, still engulfed in a death cult mentality.


So let me see... Arian Shar... (Below threshold)

So let me see... Arian Sharon bares "personal responsibility" for being unable to forsee the massacre, when there had been no indications in the past of the Phalangists, and specifically that group, acting in such a way?

What happens if you hold Arafat or Abbas or any of the others to the same standard? It means they bear personal responsibility for the acts of terror against Israel. Do you really feel that we ought to hold people to that standard? If you do, fine, but let's apply it universally. Anybody who has the power to prevent the death of innocents - even if they could not forsee those events - is personally responsible when they fail to stop them. Let's see all the heads of state in power when their country supports assassinations, terrorism and genocide brought to justice in a swift manner.

If you think that's reasonable, then so do I. I think we'll find the head of every state in the Middle East behind bars rather quickly. That may not be a bad thing.

If you think that's reas... (Below threshold)
mantis:

If you think that's reasonable, then so do I. I think we'll find the head of every state in the Middle East behind bars rather quickly. That may not be a bad thing.

Ok, fine, let's do that. Let's see, it's been three years plus $200+ billion so far putting one of them behind bars. Wow, this is going to take forever!




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