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A Civil Action

Yesterday, I caught a bit of flak (and a whole lot more support when I tossed off a line at the end of a posting where I implied that I thought Sharia law was uncivilized. That was an error I deeply regret.

I should have said it explicitly.

  • I believe any legal system that permits a man to complete a divorce by reciting "woman, I divorce you" three times, but gives no such option -- in fact, hardly any option -- to the woman is uncivilized.
  • I believe any legal system that gives women almost no say in who they marry, when they marry, is uncivilized.
  • I believe any legal system that makes such private, consensual acts as homosexuality, adultery, and fornication capital offenses is uncivilized.
  • I believe any legal system that includes such penalties as physical maiming is uncivilized.
  • I believe any legal system that requires an allegation of rape to be supported by at least two male witnesses is uncivilized.
  • I believe any legal system that punishes women who claim to be raped, but do not provide those two witnesses, to have confessed to adultery or fornication and punishes them as above is uncivilized.
  • I believe any legal system that values the rights and testimony of the adherents of one faith over others is uncivilized.
  • I believe any legal system that mandates women to cover as much of themselves when in public is uncivilized.
  • I believe any legal system that mandates women be accompanied at all times by a male relative is uncivilized.
  • I believe any legal system that mandates adult women of any age need their male guardian's permission for ANYTHING is uncivilized.
  • I believe any legal system that presumes that men are filled with uncontrollable lusts that can be unleashed by the slightest provocation by a woman is uncivilized.
  • I believe any legal system that blames the woman for provoking those lusts in a man is uncivilized.
  • I believe any legal system that is based purely on the tenets of a religion, and mandates that all must obey those tenets regardless of their beliefs, is uncivilized.
  • I believe any legal system that says men may marry outside the faith, but women cannot, is uncivilized.
  • I believe any legal system that tolerates "female circumcision" -- the removal of the clitoris and, occasionally, other tissue -- is uncivilized.
  • I believe any legal system that makes apostasy -- leaving one's faith -- a crime and punishes it with death is uncivilized.
  • I believe any legal system that punishes those who proselytize any faith besides Islam, and rewards those who promote it, is uncivilized.

Again, I apologize for any confusion that I may have caused.

(Update: "women of any age" modified to "adult women of any age." Such was implied, but not stated explicitly. My thanks to Chad for spotting the sloppiness.)


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» The Jawa Report linked with Is Islamic Law Uncivilized?

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» The Median Sib linked with Converting the world to Islam

Comments (37)

Wait...but do you think it'... (Below threshold)
JimK:

Wait...but do you think it's uncivilized? :)

Of course you're quite on the money here. Should be fun to see people try to defend these hallmarks of Sharia.

Wow! Well stated, Jay. I ... (Below threshold)

Wow! Well stated, Jay. I think you'll be getting plenty of "dittos" on that.

Not just uncivilized but ev... (Below threshold)
goddessoftheclassroom:

Not just uncivilized but evil.

Why do educated women put up with this? Wait a minute, they don't, so they are victimes of honor killings.

Got it.

Normally, being the contrar... (Below threshold)

Normally, being the contrarian that I am, I enjoy playing "devil's advocate". But even I can't argue with Jay on this one.

I would agree with most of ... (Below threshold)
chad:

I would agree with most of your post, but this goes a little far:

I believe any legal system that women of any age need their male guardian's permission for ANYTHING is uncivilized.

Unless you are defining woman by an unspecified age limit, you have just said I should not have the right to tell my 13 year old daughter that she can't hop in the car with any random psycho she meets on the internet and run off to become impregnated, or more likely dead.

Thx for clearing that up JT... (Below threshold)
Yogurt:

Thx for clearing that up JT, I thought you might be biased for a minute.

*-O(:~{>

Jay,When the Shari... (Below threshold)
Matt:

Jay,

When the Sharia Police declare a Fatwa on you, I've got your back. You'll have to move though.

One additional to your list... (Below threshold)
Doc:

One additional to your list. I believe any legal system that allows a 54 year old Muhammad to marry a 6 year old Aisha and consumated that marriage at age 9 is uncivilized and just plain wrong. If some sick bastard ever did that to my daughter he would be meeting Allah real fast.

Hear, Hear!!!Actul... (Below threshold)
Oh, FTLOG:

Hear, Hear!!!

Actully, "uncivilized" is the nice way to say it.

The left would call you a r... (Below threshold)
George:

The left would call you a religious bigot.
Heh.

Ditto to all of that Jay.</... (Below threshold)
EXDemocrat:

Ditto to all of that Jay.

Can you be specific?... (Below threshold)

Can you be specific?

It makes me so sad for the ... (Below threshold)

It makes me so sad for the women that are living in this culture. I would say uncivilized and worse. Allowing evil to grow and expand by making laws that are full of hate and bias.

Jay, You left out the most ... (Below threshold)
Eneils Bailey:

Jay, You left out the most important "I believe."

I believe that when dealing with contrarians or a straight up jerk you must explain yourself ad nauseam, in great detail, lest you will be misunderstood.

Jay, I wholeheartedly agree... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

Jay, I wholeheartedly agree with you (for once) and your eloquent denununciation of sharia law, where there is no separation of church and state..It would be a unmitigated disaster for women. Do we want to see this strong sentiment expressed in the USA? Having agreed with you, to use a British expression let me throw a spanner in the works..The New Iraqi constitution from the Coalition Provisional Authorty specifies that Under Article 7 "No law that contradicts the universally agreed tenets of Islam can be be enacted." What have we incubated or unloosed on the Iraqis and at what cost.?...We remember all to well when the US heavily supported the religious fundamentalists in Afghanistan, the unanticipated consequence that resulted: Bin Laden. Saddam may have been many things, but he was largely a secular Sunni Muslim...I suppose too America will be under a moral and international obligation to accept many Iraqi refugees, if there is a complete breakdown in Iraq, and their future becomes that of the black veil as well.

I remember a guy who was co... (Below threshold)
robert:

I remember a guy who was convicted of chopping up his wife in little bits and another who "got a ruling from his brother" back in the home country to get in another wife-murder.

Both used "their" law as a defense.

One additional to your l... (Below threshold)
Cra:

One additional to your list. I believe any legal system that allows a 54 year old Muhammad to marry a 6 year old Aisha and consumated that marriage at age 9 is uncivilized and just plain wrong. If some sick bastard ever did that to my daughter he would be meeting Allah real fast.

Actually, I thought he married her at 9 and concsumated at 12? Not that it's any better.

Steve: read that phrase fro... (Below threshold)

Steve: read that phrase from the Iraqi Constitution very slowly.

"No law... that contradicts... the universally agreed tenets of Islam... can be be enacted."

Several sources cite marrie... (Below threshold)
Doc:
What I want to know is, whe... (Below threshold)

What I want to know is, where is that "Muslim Unity" fellow from the previous sharia thread? You know, the one who keeps demanding "respect" for Islam and then plays the victim/racism card when he is met with extreme skepticism. I mean, look, here's his big chance to refute Jay Tea's assertions about the legal system he insists we respect. Here's an opportunity for him to demonstrate just how equitable, just, wise, and humane sharia law actually is. But instead of doing the manly thing and defend the tenets of his faith, "Muslim Unity" is nowhere to be found. This silence speaks louder than any words he could ever write.

This is a good explaination... (Below threshold)

This is a good explaination as to why American women shouldn't marry husbands who plan on taking them home to Saudi Arabia and other Arab lands. There are many women and children who have no rights since they have been taken to Saudi Arabia. There is a good article on this in "National Review" titled "Saudi Kidnapping: Enough: Since State won't deal with it, Justice must" on August 11, 2003 by William McGurn. The US still has done nothing to assist their citizens who are held in Saudi land. This, of course all stems back to Sharia Law, and the fact the women don't have rights in relation to their husbands/fathers. Oh, yes, let us not forget that as long as we are dependent on foreign oil, namely Arab oil, our government will continue to cater to the demands of the Arabs.

Jamie:I wouldn't e... (Below threshold)
LJD:

Jamie:

I wouldn't extend any more help to women who voluntarily married into a Saudi family than I would for some one in a Turkish prison for smoking hash.

Hey, LJD. A friend of my in... (Below threshold)

Hey, LJD. A friend of my in grade school was kept against her will in Saudi Arabia for over a year when her father invited her mother, her and her sister to 'visit him' for the summer. She was 13 or so. Can you extend that callous disregard for her? She didn't have anything to do with her mother's choise in husband.

I believe that any legal sy... (Below threshold)
bcb0225:

I believe that any legal system that convicts a woman who kills a man attempting to rape her in self defense of capital murder is uncivilized and as another commenter said evil in nature.

The New Iraqi constituti... (Below threshold)

The New Iraqi constitution from the Coalition Provisional Authorty specifies that Under Article 7 "No law that contradicts the universally agreed tenets of Islam can be be enacted." What have we incubated or unloosed on the Iraqis and at what cost.?

There is another article in the Iraqi constitution that guarantees that non-Muslim religions shall be tolerated and not harassed or suppressed. So there is some attempt at a balance. And what are "the universally agreed tenets of Islam"? There are Iraqi secularists who would oppose the sort of state-mandated religion found in, say, Saudi Arabia. The point is, Article 7 is scarcely a mandate for wahabism.

Steve Crickmore - Until you... (Below threshold)

Steve Crickmore - Until you know what those "universally agreed tenets" are, you shouldn't jump to conclusions. Notice they didn't say "sharia law". Because sharia is completely imcompatible with democracy. And it seems they're delving quite deeply into democratic (small "d") territory.

The information you linked to is indeed alarming. I do have to wonder if they even realize "why" they don't feel they are part of British society. Could it be because they don't engage in western culture at all? Or is it because unless sharia is the law of the land they will continue to feel apart? Frankly, a Voodoo practicing Haitian may always feel "apart" from their host nation and can't understand why sacrificing chickens in their backyard every night might alienate them. A devout Muslim is taught not to fraternize with the infidel - could that be a part of it? I think it's a lot of all the points I bring up.

Sharia law benefits only a male Muslim and strips the rights of all women and non-Muslims.

JeremyB, did you miss the p... (Below threshold)

JeremyB, did you miss the part where LJD specifies, "voluntarily married into"?

As you say, your friend didn't have any say in the matter, so obviously LJD would have plenty of sympathy for her.

There's no reason to go looking for reasons to get mad at people, okay? Take it from me, you'll find plenty just trying to mind your own business.

Damn, Jay. For once I can'... (Below threshold)
Starboard Attitude:

Damn, Jay. For once I can't disagree with you!


(Formerly Denny Crane)

If it weren't for the rest ... (Below threshold)
Synova:

If it weren't for the rest of it I don't really have a problem with fathers getting custody of children in a divorce. It makes at least as much sense as mothers automatically getting custody of their children and maybe even just a little bit more as men then can't avoid their responsibilty to support their children. No dead beat dads, eh?

Women who want to marry men from that culture *must* realize that even if he's the greatest guy in the world, if she decides she just can't take it anymore and wants to go home, she'll go home without her kids. (Or if *he* decides to go home, he's gonna expect to keep his children.)

But that's a case of "if not for the rest of it." Don't anyone think that I'm excusing the treatment of women by Sharia law. The utter failure to protect the weakest is inexcusible. That a girl can't even defend herself against rape is inexcusible.

Not angry at all, McGehee. ... (Below threshold)

Not angry at all, McGehee. I apologize if I left that impression. However, it's still a pretty callous disregard for another's situation, whether they are in it because of a stupid mistake (marrying a jerk) or by accident of birth. Last time I looked, being stupid does not qualify someone for effective slavery.

I don't mean to hijack the... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

I don't mean to hijack the thread but a a few commenters have upbraided me for not giving sufficent weight to the Iraqi constitutional guarantee' of the universally agreed tenets of Islam' as a strong deterent to a more exclusive 'Sharia law being practised in Iraq..I am certainly no expert, but I can see the winds of change as well as anyone in both Palestine and Iraq; in the latter, their provisional constitution unfortunately will become even less of "a goddamned piece of paper" to quote Bush's words, if Moktada Sadr, Iraq's new kingmaker continues to have his way. When asked recently , "If Iran or Syria requested that he help them by attacking American troops inside Iraq. He replied, "If I have the capability, I will do it. I am here to serve Islam. Why wouldn't I do them this favor?"I'm sure any constitutional niceties will be overlooked in the furture if and as Sadr and his followers become more powerful in their interpretation of the universal truths of Islam.

You mean "competent" adult ... (Below threshold)

You mean "competent" adult women. Adult women (or men) who are incapacitated, mentally deficient (Alzheimers, etc.), or for any other legitimate reason unable to make decisions for themselves usually get guardians appointed for them, and taht's no problem. Of course, the guardian can be either male or female.

if Moktada Sadr, Iraq's... (Below threshold)

if Moktada Sadr, Iraq's new kingmaker continues to have his way. When asked recently , "If Iran or Syria requested that he help them by attacking American troops inside Iraq. He replied, "If I have the capability, I will do it. I am here to serve Islam. Why wouldn't I do them this favor?"I

I understand that our armed forces have just about had enough of 'Mookie', as they call him, and the only reason he isn't dead now is that he called his followers to cease hostilities in the 11th hour. If he wants to throw his lot in with Syria or Iran, I don't think he'll last long.

I believe any legal system ... (Below threshold)
BoysArePeopleToo:

I believe any legal system that tolerates "circumcision" -- the removal of any genital tissue -- is uncivilized.

I'm not going to do a compl... (Below threshold)
Omar:

I'm not going to do a complete fact check on that post, but I'd just like to remind everyone that not ALL muslims believe in Sharia law.

It's usually the ultra conservative Muslims (or uneducated ones) that completely support Sharia law.

I just wanted to say that so no one here makes the mistake of generalizing.

"I believe any legal system... (Below threshold)
Steve UK:

"I believe any legal system that tolerates "female circumcision" -- the removal of the clitoris and, occasionally, other tissue -- is uncivilized."

I believe any legal system that tolerates "male circumcision" -- the removal of healthy tissue -- is uncivilized. Could this be the USA?

SteveUK:The UK als... (Below threshold)
Willy Eckerslyke:

SteveUK:

The UK also tolerates the non-consensual and medically unnecessary circumcision of male infants, so I think it is unfair to single out the USA for criticism in this instance. Male children of the British royal family are routinely circumcised.

I share your surprise and concern, though, to note that the original message poster appeared to condemn female genital mutilation, but not the male counterpart.

Willy




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