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Wafa Sultan: Fearless Truthteller

Updated

The Washington Times has a very interesting editorial today about an Arab American woman who stands up to radical Islam:

Her latest appearance took place Feb. 21, when Ms. Sultan engaged the Egyptian cleric Ibrahim Al-Khouli in a live debate about the "clash of civilizations" on the talk show "The Other Direction" on al Jazeera TV. The transcript and subtitled video are available in English (www.memri.org). "The clash we are witnessing around the world is not a clash of religions, or a clash of civilizations," she said. "It is a clash between two opposites, between two eras. It is a clash between a mentality that belongs to the Middle Ages and another mentality that belongs to the 21st century. It is a clash between civilization and backwardness, between the civilized and the primitive, between barbarity and rationality ... What we see today is not a clash of civilizations."


Turning to her Egyptian interlocutor Mr. Al-Khouli, she asks, "What gives you the right to call [Christians] 'those who incur Allah's wrath,' or 'those who have gone astray,' and then come here and say that your religion commands you to refrain from offending the beliefs of others?" Mr. Al-Khouli had previously compared Christians to apes and pigs. "I am not a Christian, a Muslim or a Jew. I am a secular human being. I do not believe in the supernatural, but I respect others' right to believe in it..."

She then issues an even greater provocation. "We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church ... Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them."

This woman has guts to say these things on al Jazeera television. She was broadcast into the homes of millions of Muslims calling radical Islam exactly what it is: barbarous, backward, primitive

Update: Michelle Malkin is blogging about this as well.


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Comments (71)

How long does she have to l... (Below threshold)
epador:

How long does she have to live?

And it is a clash between t... (Below threshold)
epador:

And it is a clash between two eras, at least in the dusty streets of fourth world Muslim countries, even when some have painted a veneer of modernism in their cities with their oil wealth. Kuwait, slightly more progressive (if that's the word for it) suffered the wrath of it's fascist neighbor for daring to peek into the 21st century both economically and spiritually.

epador,If you chec... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:

epador,

If you check so of the Las Vegas web sites you may be able to place a bet on how long it be before some Muslim extremist proves her right.

Nevertheless, I believe Ms. Sultan is wrong in her fundamental analysis. I believe it is a religious war between Islam and Christianity, with Jews and others getting caught up in it.

I belive it was Kin Hubbard... (Below threshold)
epador:

I belive it was Kin Hubbard (to be truly politically incorrect) who said:

When a man says its not the money, its the priciple, its the money.

I haven't seen a "religious war" that wasn't more about power and money than religion.

And all America gets is Ma... (Below threshold)
bryanD:

And all America gets is Matalin and Carville, Orrin Hatch and Anybody, or John McCain and Himself!

I simply pray there are lot... (Below threshold)
Old Coot:

I simply pray there are lots of strong people watching her six.

THIS is a courageous defend... (Below threshold)
wickedpinto:

THIS is a courageous defender of free speech, but Hirsaan (spelling) ali, and Theo Van Gogh were collateral damage in the war on terror?

The 4th estate of truth tellers, have an issue with which truths are worth telling, especially when they are the same truth. But who cares, it isn't an election cycle for another 2 months.

Wafa Sultan is my Hero. I ... (Below threshold)
Diana:

Wafa Sultan is my Hero. I truly hope she is not murdered by those thugs. I respect great minds and strong people may the universe protect her. May other people be strong enough to stand around her like her fellow Americans.

Unfortunately, this woman i... (Below threshold)

Unfortunately, this woman is only one out of a billion arabs who think like this. That's the problem.

This woman is a heroine I h... (Below threshold)
yitzchok:

This woman is a heroine I hope she doesn't become a martyr. Sadly she is a lone voice in the vast muslim wilderness. But if Al Jazeera will continue to air her and other intelligent and decent people like her on air; then she will have a positive impact on many many people in the muslim world.I have tremendous admiration for Dr. Wafa Sultan.

This Woman is just great an... (Below threshold)
virgo:

This Woman is just great and right on the money, man does she have a lot of gut,s saying the truth over there is an invitation to death..may God protect Her...

indeed a great woman. a hol... (Below threshold)

indeed a great woman. a holy one!

She lives in LA, so she has... (Below threshold)
al:

She lives in LA, so she has the Right of free speech and should be safe. When you are not threatened by thugs, you can tell the truth.

I think Wafa Sultan is righ... (Below threshold)
Jailan:

I think Wafa Sultan is right about extremists and that what they are doing is wrong, but the world has to know that this is NOT the message Islam (through the Koran and Prophet Muhammad) is sending to the world.
Before you criticize Islam try to read and learn about it, not just from talk shows or such but by at least just reading the Koran.
I can honestly say it is a very peaceful religion, defends women's rights and prohibits terrorizing people. It also teaches to accept people of different faiths and to treat them as any other.
It is true that Islam's image is very bad right now but that is due to the fact there are extremists who misinterpret the teachings of Islam.
I would also like to point out that there are extremists in every walk of life not just Muslims.
In response to Dr Wafa Sultan's remark that Jews aren't blowing up German restaurants I agree with that, but isn't their occupation of Palestine and the deaths ,that have been going on for years but are now "forgotten" because the media's attention is drawn away, an act of terrorism?

Bravo to Dr. Sultan. It is... (Below threshold)
maryam:

Bravo to Dr. Sultan. It is difficult for people who have not lived under regimes such as the Syrian "Assad" regimes to understand the extent of political, religious and social tyranny imposed upon the populations and cultures of the people. But it goes beyond political "regime" and deep into the soul of people who are force fed a regime of terror by way of religion. Centuries of illiteracy paves the way for religious terror that is sanctioned by so-called higher levels of education and religion. While in Syria I saw the misery that the poor are forced to survive in. While Syria touts free access to university education by bragging about minimum tuition as low as $2 / year, the books needed to complement the "education" may cost hundreds of dollars if available at all, thus nullifying the low tuition. The so-called "educated" live under the constant fear of death / imprisonment (given credence by mass executions / disappearances such as evidenced by the wholesale slaughters in Homs in the 1980s). Generations of Syrians live like prisoners in their own homes. Women are kept prisoner by their families lest their "behaviour" (such as speaking out against the various religious and political regimes imposed upon them) threatens the very existence of their "line". Terror and fear are the tools and the interpretations of Islam are the weapons used to intimidate the people and justify untold misery and despair. There is no freedom nor peace possible under the conditions of a totalitarian religious regime that uses death to control the people. Silence is the greatest enemy. I know of a doctor, educated at the same university Dr. Sultan attended, who has been kept a house prisoner by her family in Aleppo since 1982 because they feared she might have whispered against the Assad regime. This once articulate doctor is now a tormented prisoner, force fed anti-psychotic drugs and held in a confinement that is "accepted" as a means to "protect the family" from complete and utter ruin and perhaps death. God forbid that a person speak out against the inconsistencies of Islam!! A worse fate awaits them and it is sanctioned by Islamists who are trying desperately to impose their belief systems on the rest of the world by murders most foul and repressive regimes that hobble the natural spirit of people. I will not accept the unacceptable in the name of "God Almighty". I look forward to more people speaking out in clarity on the problems within the unholy state of Islam.

Bravo !! Great logic,this i... (Below threshold)

Bravo !! Great logic,this is not just her thoughts.you can easly open Koran and read the never ending orders for KILLING others who do not believe to think the way that they believe !

Amen, from the 2nd Surah (C... (Below threshold)
maryam:

Amen, from the 2nd Surah (Chapter) onwards there is the "never ending orders for KILLING others" for one reason or another. And they have, they do and they will continue to believe that it is their "Allah given" right, word for word, to kill. WHEN (and IF) I see any sort of contribution made by "the muslims", I might reconsider my position, but that will be up to the muslims to show the world that they are not fixated on Islamic World Domination, nor even on the domination of ANY one (including their wives / children). I won't hold my breath.

@Jailan: Islam a pea... (Below threshold)
G.Kant:

@Jailan: Islam a peaceful religion, that defends women's rights???
I would really appreciate, if You were right, but what about these Qu'ran verses?

As for women the book of Allah says that they are inferior to men and their husbands have the right to scourge them if they are found disobedient (4:34). It advises to "take a green branch and beat your wife", because a green branch is more flexible and hurts more. (38:44). It teaches that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (66:10). It maintains that men have an advantage over the women (2:228). It not only denies the women's equal right to their inheritance (4:11-12), it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their witness is not admissible in the courts of law (2:282).

The Qur'an tells us: "not to make friendship with Jews and Christians" (5:51), "kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (2:191), "murder them and treat them harshly" (9:123), "fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (9:5). The Qur'an demands that we fight the unbelievers, and promises "If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them" (8:65).

If You want to read more:
http://www.annaqed.com/english/attack/a_call_to_the_muslims_of_the_world.html

G.Kant

Whether it be Christian or ... (Below threshold)
D. Applebee:

Whether it be Christian or Islam, the greatest destructive force in the world appears to be the radical, fanatical religious segments that subscribe to using violence to coerce others to confrom to their bigoted religius beliefs.

It is amazing that practically everything in the world is improved by enlightened and intellectual advances by mankind's knowledge . . . everything,exception of those who are mired in the dark ages and superstitions of ancient "religions".

It is the reasoned intelligent voices of Muslim Islamic people like Wafa Sultan who will save the radical islamics by providing the simple and honest logic to counter the bull headed, closed mind of the radically fanatical terrorists.

People who kill others or use the threat of coercion to force others to "bow to their religion" do not belong in modern society.

Bless this woman for her co... (Below threshold)
Sage:

Bless this woman for her courage.

From a psychological viewpo... (Below threshold)
Joel:

From a psychological viewpoint, if you describe a person as having the following characteristics: enjoys or is indifferent to hurting and inflicting pain on others, looks forward to death, is misogonystic, easily driven to violence, enjoys killing---you are describing a sociopath, a type of psychopath. We put people like this (when we apprehend them) in high-security mental institutions, usually on sedative medications. It is nightmarish to realize that millions of this type of person are in the Islamic world today. There are millions of Muslim psychopaths lining up to kill many innocent people: Americans, Europeans, Jews, Australians or other Muslims---it doesn't matter. Just so long as killing takes place.

give this woman a medal..i ... (Below threshold)
efarstan:

give this woman a medal..i have new respect for women and arabs from listening to her speak...
i am impressed..and awed by the straight shooting she does on the topic..
i tip my hat to you ma'am...i wish you well..and if you ever run for office...i dont care under what party either...id vote for you....
your clear thinking..and clear speaking...and to the point....

i cant say enough good things about this...


I would suggest that before... (Below threshold)
Sara:

I would suggest that before you comment and post incorrect info. (G.Kant) you research and post the correct quotes out of the Qur'an. I can assure you that the quotes you posted are NOT in the Qur'an and I am pretty sure that you have copied and pasted straight off of the internet, which as everyone knows is not always the most reliable source.

this is courage in the wron... (Below threshold)
Mark Bohn:

this is courage in the wrong place for the wrong reasons. I have studied the text of islam and i know what i'm talking about. most of what she said is invalid. her quotes from the quran or the prophet's [Mohammad's] tradition are not correct. she's twisting the truth to catch some attention. We have inflected way more pain on Arabs and Muslims and against all that were different. Think of the wars of the crusades, the wars in spain in the middle ages, the two gulf wars, the war in afghanistan, etc. And also remember that radical islam was our dearest friend when the USSR was in power. it's mere politics. And also never forget that most mumlim behavior is not a reflection of what true islam is. if you wanna learn the truth about this religion, or if you care about the truth, go read it in the books. pick up the translations [hard copies] for the koran and Mohammed's traditions and read things in context. this woman is a liar.

Bravo Dr. Sultan,I... (Below threshold)
Jan:

Bravo Dr. Sultan,

I cannot but agree with the Dr. that it is more likely a clash of civilisations than of religions.
Lets please not forget that -Christians-, the Roman Catholic Churh, upto only 400 years ago murdered and tortured in the name of God on a daily basis?

You are a lier Sara.... (Below threshold)
G.Kant:

You are a lier Sara. Obviously I copied the quotes of Qur'an from the declared site of annaged.com. But these quotations and interpretations are right! I proof this with the corresponding Qur'an quotes from http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/ "This is an electronic version of The Holy Qur'an, translated by M.H. Shakir and published by Tahrike Tarsile Qur'an, Inc., in 1983:" (sorry, but I think it is necessary to post als this stuff. )

[4.34] Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

[38.44] And take in your hand a green branch and beat her ...

[66.10] Allah sets forth an example to those who disbelieve the wife of Nuh and the wife of Lut: they were both under two of Our righteous servants, but they acted treacherously towards them so they availed them naught against Allah, and it was said: Enter both the fire with those who enter.

[2.228] And the divorced women should keep themselves in waiting for three courses; and it is not lawful for them that they should conceal what Allah has created in their wombs, if they believe in Allah and the last day; and their husbands have a better right to take them back in the meanwhile if they wish for reconciliation; and they have rights similar to those against them in a just manner, and the men are a degree above them, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

[4.11-12] Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females; then if they are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased has left,...

[2.282] ...and call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other...
Conclusion: two women alone, three women alone, 1.000 women 'alone' are no witnesses, unless there isn't one single man at hand (G.K.)

[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[8.65] O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand.


Any questions?

I think US Gov should give ... (Below threshold)
Raj:

I think US Gov should give protection/body guards to this brave woman. It is just a matter of time before muslims Van Gogh her. Anybody who has studied Islamic History and have read actual Koran can give you ample evidence of Violent nature of the book. Dr. Sultan was muslim once, that gives her even more credit. Hopefully Islam will mature like how Christinity matured from dark violent ages to today's less violent version.

<a href="http://www.virtueo... (Below threshold)
Sims:
If you agree with her value... (Below threshold)
Mr Egypt:

If you agree with her values, I do respect that. But dont tell me that her speech was based on facts...

How can she say that jews and christians never used violance for their own cause? Whats even more weird, is that there are actually people who believe that jews and christinas never killed innocent muslims....

The state of Israel would never exist if they didnt deport arabs from their land....

I just watched a 7 minute c... (Below threshold)
rajengineer:

I just watched a 7 minute clip of wafa sultan "debating" with a professor from Algeria, and I must confess that I was disappointed by wafa sultan. I understood her position re: the teaching of extremist/fundamentalist islam and the hatred it encourages, and I don't disagree; but her lack of understanding re: history was astonding - and it greatly diminished her credibility.

For instance, she'd made a comment about america representing a hope/idealism/optimism for its inhabitiants, and the algerian professor asked her about this hopeful, optimisitic society, as it related to native americans. Her response was that Christopher Columbus discovered america in 1492, and the country was formally founded in 1776 - and this was proof positive that america as a nation didn't have anything to do with the destruction of the american indians (she seemed to suggest that they dies off during the nearly 300 years after Columbus discovered america, but before the nation was established). Anyone who knows history knows that this is plainly wrong. Columbus discovered america - but he was primarily in the west indies and central america. As for the indians, they were driven out/wiped out as more while/european settlers immigrated to america, and moved further and further west.

In this very article, she alluded to jews having never acted as terrists - and this is simply not true. When Palestine was a united nations sactioned, british contolled territory, the jewish settlers engaged in a campaign of terror not unlike what the insurgents are doing to us/allied forces in iraq. In fact, it was this campaign of terror that ultimately forced the UN to establish isreal as a state.

Now, that said, I understand her point that america has proven to be a place of refuge for her, and I'm glad for her - but it doesn't change the fact that we in this country live as well as we do largely because of our exploitation of other people (lopsided trade agreements, robbing them of their natural resources, et al).

Most people here seem to mi... (Below threshold)
chris wilson:

Most people here seem to miss the point entirely in regard to Dr. Wafa Sultan's position as most of her criticisms can be laid just as well to any religion be it Christianity or Judaism.
Anyone who has criticised one or another of the three "great" monotheistic religions have always seemed to feel the need to moderate our language after all how many times have you heard the phrase (Dr. Wafa Sultan herself used it in the interview), "Always respect others' beliefs?" Christians, Jews and Muslims are all very sure in what they find holy and we have respected that, although we may not agree. The elephant in the room here is religion and I think Dr Wafa Sultan only seemed to concentrate on Islam purely because she was in a debate with an Islamic cleric and as she is a woman of science and therefore reason I am sure she would be just as critical towards Christianity or the Jewish faiths.
Christians, Jews and Muslims all spread the dangerous notion the death is not the end and this belief in an after life was the key weapon that made the Sept 11 atrocity possible. However, even to breathe such a suggestion, even with the most polite restraint, is to invite an onslaught of patronizing abuse.
The following quote from an article I read recently makes the point nicely and is an indication of just how the religious mind works:
"Billy Graham, Mr. Bush's spiritual advisor, said in Washington Cathedral of the Sept 11 attacks:
But how do we understand something like this? Why does God allow evil like this to take place? Perhaps that is what you are asking now. You may even be angry at God. I want to assure you that God understands those feelings that you may have.

Well, that's big of God, I must say. I'm sure that makes the bereaved feel a whole lot better (the pathetic thing is, it probably does!). Mr. Graham went on:
I have been asked hundreds of times in my life why God allows tragedy and suffering. I have to confess that I really do not know the answer totally, even to my own satisfaction. I have to accept, by faith, that God is sovereign, and He is a God of love and mercy and compassion in the midst of suffering. The Bible says God is not the author of evil. It speaks of evil as a "mystery."

Less baffled by this deep theological mystery were two of America's best-known televangelists, Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell. In a conversation on Robertson's lucrative television show (religion is tax-exempt); they knew exactly where to put the blame. The whole thing was obviously caused by America's sin. Falwell said that God had protected America wonderfully for 225 years, but now, what with abortion and gays and lesbians and the ACLU, "all of them who have tried to secularize America . . . I point the finger in their face and say you helped this happen." "Well, I totally concur," responded Robertson. Bush, to his credit, swiftly disowned this characteristic example of the religious mind at work"

And finally to quote Richard Dawkins:

"My respect for the Abrahamic religions went up in the smoke and choking dust of September 11th. The last vestige of respect for the taboo disappeared as I watched the "Day of Prayer" in Washington Cathedral, where people of mutually incompatible faiths united in homage to the very force that caused the problem in the first place: religion. It is time for people of intellect, as opposed to people of faith, to stand up and say "Enough!" Let our tribute to the dead be a new resolve: to respect people for what they individually think, rather than respect groups for what they were collectively brought up to believe."

Islam is a jealous, violent... (Below threshold)
chelio:

Islam is a jealous, violent, legalistic religion. I find it ugly and utterly false, squelching the human spirit of creativity that our Loving Creator made for us in his image. Islam is a foul lie, a pompous imposter. Pretending to have a profound body of lovely ways and ideas, it is really just rules; Tedious, empty, often incoherent regulations, with inconsistent ambiguity, deadly duplicitous meaning, ruthless human judges, and homicidal devotees. In harmony with its Koran, it wars against Gods freedom and peace and joy.
There are millions of peace loving Muslims. But their peace is in deference to their religion, not a result of it. For Islam itself is not peace loving. Peace is not peace if it is another's terror. As a religious nation and according to doctrine, it uses its own flock as shields, and those with more passionate proclivity, as violent suicidal projectiles. The courage of the deceived only camouflage the cowardice, insecurity, bitterness and fear of the pompous, vengeful masterminds and their so called prophet. All this is no surprise for Muhammad himself was a murderer.
The rest of us are just 'dihmmies', at best second class citizens, ridiculed or burdened on whim, or emotionally crushed by the terror of Jihad and intellectually oppressed by the intimidation of fatwa.
Demographics clearly reveal it has been an unbearable longsuffering for all nonmuslims among muslims, with exodus the only escape. This is attested to by the miniscule remnant of non-Muslim communities in the Middle East. It is an efficient, self righteous, ethnic cleansing.
1400 years of failure to itself and its misdirected victims, and pure terror for all other humans on earth, Islam has always inspired terror and loathing by the people of the world. Some are fortunate enough to have avoided being subdued by its intimidation and deception, but minions have succumbed to Muhammad's subtle, historical revisionism and insidious recipe for destitution, and his bloody, demanding, merciless forces of death.
Islam's Dome of the Rock is the Abomination that causes Desolation as spoken of by Daniel the prophet. The expansion of Islam represents the ultimate abomination since the best imposter is the cleverest lie and therefore the greatest evil with the surest desolation awaiting its dominion by the sword. Their deception is much greater than the Jews who reject Christ. For while Jews and Christians love life, Islam readily admits that it loves death.
According to their law I should be killed for saying this! And who knows perhaps I will, but may God spare me by His mercy and grace. Our God is trustworthy and loving through Jesus. For the sword of Islam kills only the body, while the resurrected Jesus continually stands at the door and knocks, to enter the hearts of all who love peace, and beseeching those who are called to become chosen. With His love He grovels in cleansing supplication at the feet of every man, pleading with them to follow Him to the throne for His coronation. 'Allah has no son' for he is no loving Father.

Chelio,I agree wit... (Below threshold)
RA:

Chelio,

I agree with your stand that Islam is basically ruthless, violent, "my way or no other way", religion. It has never grown to become peacuful and accept the coexistence of other religions.

But I disagree with you on following: ...while the resurrected Jesus continually stands at the door and knocks, to enter the hearts of all who love peace, and beseeching those who are called to become chosen.

Today's Christians have found a non-violent way to spread their religion thru blackmailing: their missionaries help people only if they are converted and in some cases they give bribes to the poor. Very very ugly Christianity. We do not need Jesus or Mohammed. World will be in fact better without them.

Wafa Sultan is truly a brav... (Below threshold)
Angel Robles:

Wafa Sultan is truly a brave person, and I agree with her and her views 100 percent. I myself am a psychology major, and I live close to Los Angeles and I wish I could have heard of Wafa Sultan before. We live in America the home of free speech, and I am proud (as an American) that educated people like Wafa Sultan can excercise that right. It's about time that someone has the courage to stand up and say that there is something wrong with a religion that tells people to cut off the heads of anyone who doesn't share in the same beliefs as you. I praise Wafa Sultan for her courage, and will stand up to protect her right of free speech as an America Marine.

I would like to find out ho... (Below threshold)
Angel Robles:

I would like to find out how we can invite Dr. Wafa Sultan to speak at my university, California State University at San Bernardino? Dr.Wafa Sultan should be given a platform to spread her message of peace and understanding, to every university in this country. According to Rajengineer, Dr. Wafa Sultan loses kudos points in his book because of historical inacuracies. While it's true that for a brief time violent jewish gangs like the Stern Gang, fought against the British in Israel. It is also true that these groups targeted British soldiers and government officials, and not inoccent people heading home after a long day of work or school. The Stern Gang was incorporated into the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces), which worked with the British during World War Two, when Rommel threatened Egypt and the Suez Canal. Most Jews of the time didn't condone the actions of the Stern Gang (unlike alot of Palestinians who went out cheering in the streets after september 11th). The government of the United States did have a policy of extermination and subjugation of the Native Americans of this country, but the United States of today is not the same country that it was a hundred years ago, and because we are a democracy the U.S has been gradually evolving because we have a right to free speech, and we excercise those rights like we did during the civil-rights era of the sixtys and seventys. If any else has any doubts about the danger that Muslims and the Koran pose to civilized people I invite them to do a google search for: Beheading, and then to go to the Ogorish website, and then you can see the true face of Islam, and judge for yourselves who is truly Evil? Who is truly backwards and barbaric like Dr. Wafa Sultan says! I love America and while we may not yet be a perfect country, with a perfect past, I wouldn't live anywhere else!

I just want to say I've now... (Below threshold)

I just want to say I've now watched both videos of the debate with Dr. Wafa Sultan and I my response is ...

Yeeeeees! This lady has balls! More importantly, every word she says is saying everything that needs to be said without holding back. She is our spokesperson for the common sense. At last someone out there is telling it like it is and stating to these nutter animals that this is the 21st Century and they just need to GET OVER IT!!!!

How dare anyone MASS MURDER just because they want the 'good old days' of the 13th Century to return, where women were like dogs and mules to them and insults were a path to a coffin vs free speech!

Sick, twisted, retarded amimals. That's all that behaviour deserves to be associated with.

Dr. Wafa Sultan is a legend!! They won't kill her because she's too prominent now and her words are already out there doing their work. If they kill her, they prove her right!

Dr. Wafa Sultan, YOU GO GIRL!!!

wafa was talking about how ... (Below threshold)
sada:

wafa was talking about how muslims are acting, she wasn't exactly saying that islam is an evil religion... her point is that arabs are evil. and thats sorta true... about 95% of "Islamic" terrorists are from arab origin.. like osama bin laden for example.. he's not originally from afghan, he's originally from an arab country. even in the quran... i wish i had the sura and verse - it said that there will be a time when Arabs will become corrupt, and become astray from Islam or make laws making other think it is islamic... Anothing point, you dont see jews burning down churches? Uhm... yes they definately tried to do that... in Israel or was it Palestine??

What church did the Jews tr... (Below threshold)
Angel Robles:

What church did the Jews try to burn down in Israel? When the Israelis took control of all of Jerusalem from Jordon did they burn down the Dome of the Rock Mosque? No, they didn't even though that Mosque is built over the ancient temple of David! The Israelis protect that Mosque, and let Arabs run it and worship there. There is good evidence too that points out that Arabs are escavating underneath the Mosque in order to destroy the ancient ruins of the church of David, and therby try and earase any claims that jews have to Israel. I will say that there have been atrocities committed on both sides though, although it seems that the overwhelming amount of atrocities have been committed by the Arabs. I have many Jewish friends, and I have met a few Arabs that have become good friends as well. So I can't say that as a christian I hate Arabs, because I have met some very good and decent Arabs. I can say that I don't agree with any religion that preaches hate and intolerence! The United States has been founded as a christian nation, and yet it is home to many different cultures and religions. Christians are a minority in any arab country, and are even subject to a special tax because they are not Muslim! I have never experienced racism from my Hindu or any of the other major religions because of my beliefs! Just because I don't follow nor believe the teachings of a violent man that lived a few centurys ago doesn't make me an enemy of the Arab peoples, the Koran teaches muslims to hate me, and I will always fight for what I believe, friends, family, and Country!

"According to eyewitnesses,... (Below threshold)
sada:

"According to eyewitnesses, a middle aged Jewish man and two women detonated firecrackers inside the ancient basilica, causing a small fire. The three were disguised as "Christian tourists" when they entered the church compound shortly after sunset Friday, they added.

The Zionist regime claimed the perpetrator was "mentally deranged" however, the claim was strongly rejected by the mayor of Nazareth, Ramez Jarayseh.

"This is a ready-made lie the Israeli establishment uses whenever Jewish extremists attack Muslim and Christian holy places," he added.

The Israeli police said the main perpetrator, identified as 44 year old Haim Eliyahu Havivi, had been questioned in the past in connection with his intentions to carry out attacks on Muslim and religious holy places.

The attack on the Church of the Annunciation sparked off angry protests by thousands of Nazareth's Muslim and Christian inhabitants who shouted slogans denouncing government flaccidity with Jewish extremists."

I believe that happened on Friday.. march 3rd.

"Anti-Christian Violence in... (Below threshold)
sada:

"Anti-Christian Violence in India, 1997-2000


The media first actively began to report incidents of violence against Christians in 1997. As I have argued earlier, the increase of violence against Christians must be viewed in the context of the rise of Hindu nationalism and the ascendancy of the BJP to political power at the center of the nation. From 1964 to 1996, only 38 incidents of violence against Christians were registered in the country, though doubtless many incidents were not recorded at all; in 1997 alone, 24 incidents were noted by the United Christian Forum for Human Rights, and in 1998, the number had gone up to 90, though some Christian spokespersons have claimed that the true figure is several times higher. Hindu militants, one can safely conclude, see the rise of the BJP and other like-minded parties as an invitation to commit violence against Christians and other minorities with impunity.

Though incidents of violence against Christians have occurred in nearly all parts of India, the violence has been largely confined to north, central, and western India, to the states of Gujarat, Maharashtra, Uttar Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh, and the capital area of New Delhi -- not coincidentally, most of these areas have been under BJP rule in recent years. Some of the more gruesome incidents took place in eastern India, in the state of Orissa. Intimidation of Christians has extended to such acts as arson (the fire-bombing of Churches), the distribution of threatening literature, the forcible reconversion of recent converts back to Hinduism, the burning of Bibles; there have also been incidents, though much fewer in number, involving the rape of nuns and the murder of both Christian priests and missionaries. Cases of physical assault have also been recorded from various parts of the country: on 5 November 1999, 26 students -- not all Christians -- of St. Joseph's Evening College, Bangalore, were attacked by 40 VHP activists for allegedly converting lower-caste Hindus (the Dalits) to Christianity (Walter Fernandes, "Caste as vested interest", The Hindu [4 January 2000]). In Gujarat alone, where the BJP grip over power is very strong, 22 churches were burnt or destroyed, and another 16 damaged, in 1997. In the following year, 1998, according to the United Christian Forum for Human Rights, 5 nuns were raped, 9 killed, and 25 subjected to physical abuse (see Ravi Arvind Palat, "Violence against Christians in India", New Zealand Herald [26 January 1999]; also V. Venkatesan, "A pattern of persecution", Frontline 15, no. 26 [19 December 1998]). In mid-June 2000, four churches in different parts of India were bombed, while in the southern state of Andhra Pradesh, church graves were desecrated. In the same month, a church in Maharashtra was ransacked, and an evangelist working for the India Campus Crusade for Christ was found stabbed to death at his home (see Robert Marquand, "In India, a Pattern of Attacks on Christians", Christian Science Monitor ([29 June 2000]).

There have also been at least five widely known cases involving the murder of Christian clergymen, though perhaps as many as 20 priests and pastors may have been killed. Two might be mentioned by way of illustration. The entire country was shocked in January 1999 when an Australian Baptist missionary, Graham Staines, was murdered along with his two sons by being burnt alive inside a locked car. Staines had lived in India for the greater part of his life, and was working among lepers in Orissa, one of India's most deprived regions (see the Human Rights Report and State Department Report, as cited below). His assailant, a Hindu militant by the name of Dara Singh, went around boasting about his deed, and even gave television interviews, while the police claimed that he could not be found. On 7 June 2000, the Catholic priest, George Kuzhikandam, was murdered in his sleep in a church in Mathura in Uttar Pradesh. The church cook, Vijay Ekka, who slept near the murdered clergyman and first reported the murder, was taken away by the police for interrogation, and himself died in police custody. Though the police claimed he had committed suicide, the autopsy indicated that he had been strangled. It is widely believed that the cook was silenced.

Anti-Christian violence in India has been widely noted, and in April 1999 Human Rights Watch visited the Dangs district in southeastern Gujarat, where over a period of 10 days, from 25 December 1998 to 3 January 1999, there were numerous violent and clearly premeditated attacks on Christians and their institutions. Their 1999 report on the violence perpretrated against Christians furnishes a detailed record of what they saw and heard, and provides the testimony of those victimized (it can be accessed at http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/indiachr/christians). A chronological record, as well as the historical background to the present spate of violence, can also be found in the U.S. State Department's Annual Report on International Religious Freedom for 1999: India (released by the Bureau for Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor, Washington, DC, 9 September 1999). Shortly before dying in a car crash in Poland in the summer of 2000, Archbishop Alan de Lastic of New Delhi addressed a letter to Prime Minister Vajpayee, drawing his attention to the attacks upon Christians in all parts of the country, and stating that the thugs engaged in violent activity and attacks upon Christians "know no action will be taken [against them], and they can get away with any kind of violence" (Seema Mustafa, "Archbishop to PM: Your Silence Kills", The Asian Age (14 May 2000). The Archbishop noted that the Christian community was threatened with its worst crisis since India acquired independence in 1947 (see Pamela Constable, 'The Burden of the Cross in India", Washington Post [3 July 2000]).


The evidence for violence against Christians in India is consequently incontrovertible. There are numerous compilations of atrocities perpetrated upon Christians, and they suggest an alarming pattern of violence: the intimidation of priests; threats placed against Christian schools; false allegations against Christian priests; the destruction of Christian institutions, such as the Damian Leprosy Hospital complex run by Catholic nuns for 31 years; attacks upon churches; assault upon Christian nuns and pastors, such as in the city of Jhansi on 2 May 2000; the distribution of scurrilous literature; and murder of Christians."

http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/southasia/History/Current_Affairs/Current_affairs.html

Roberts, my point with this is that there are bad apples in every single religion...including hinduism. you claimed something about hindus being peaceful and what not? well... this article says otherwise.

and the part about paying a tax, well in islamic countries, um, everyone pays taxes... thats hw it is in the usa.. acording to u, america is a christian nation, and their law is that every1 must pay taxes. Thats the same ideaology in the quran, if u live in an islamic country u pay taxes.

While I never said that Isr... (Below threshold)
Angel Robles:

While I never said that Israelis had no blood on their hands, I did say that the majority of crimes have been committed by Muslims in that conflict. While there are a few cases of some extremist acting on their beliefs, however in the Hindu religion it does not say to make war, and cut off the heads of non-Hindus. Hindus experienced Muslim violence as well because some of their countrymen had converted to Islam. When the British pulled out of India, Islam had so twisted the minds of these converts that they attacked and killed any Hindus that they could in order to try and establish a country run under Muslim law. That is why today we have Pakistan and Banledesh, and this just goes to show everyone how intelorant and racist Islam really is. Islam is not racist along color or ethnic grounds, but on grounds of religion. A year and a half ago I was shot in the neck, and the last thing I remember before I lost consciousnes was an Indian doctor over me saving my life. I have many Hindu Indian friends here in the U.S, and they are doctors, lawyers, and respected business owners. I am invited over for barbecues and gatherings all the time, and I have to say that I love their spicy hot food! The few Arab friends that I have could never envite me over like that because of their intolerant religion. I will always be a christian, and I will die a christian, and if that makes me an enemy of Islam, then so be it! I have never disliked someone before for not being of the christian faith, to each his own I say, but I every time I see an intolerant Muslim in my country where they are free to practice their religion in relative peace it bugs the shit out of me. Osama declared his war against the U.S because non-muslims are stationed in Saudi Arabia. Osama studied here in the U.S and in Britain, and I never heard someone start a holy war against Arabs because they are here. I say it's time that we adopt the same policy against Muslims and send them back to their precious sand dunes! Why are we discussing someone elses religion anywhere, why should I care for Islam?

Angel you are becoming a bi... (Below threshold)
sada:

Angel you are becoming a bit too bitter, not very christian like now. Was it not Jesus who said to turn the other cheek and whatnot? anyways... i could say the same thing about your religion, it tells me i can own slaves, kill others for some particular reason.

Heres a few questions you can answer for me. (about christianity since you claim that your religion tells people to never kill or do anything bad)

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord- Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't
agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses.
Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.
19:27.How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws?
(Lev. 20:14)


And another thing, you keep saying "ARABS" i understand where you are coming from... i have had several arab friends, and they are stuck up, snobby, dont like "low or middle class" people, Greedy, and plain rude.

My point is that not many people like Arabs... even the friends that i have (who are arab) dont like their people because they realize how rude and overpowering they like to be.

I think ive stated this b4, but ill stress it again, there is a certain place in the quran, and there is also a hadith, that states how arab will become corrupt, make up their own rules and laws and slap the label "Islamic" on it, indicating the end of the world is near... and that seems to be true, look at the arabs today, they drink, club, the women trash trashy, they cuss, fornicate, and many other things... they are CORRUPT. but they still call themselves muslims, which they aren't.

If you were to meet a pakistani, an afghan, iranian, or turkish people that are muslims, you will see that they are more religous than the typical arab and are much more nicer & loving people. They follow what the prophet did in some of the hadiths.

@sada:Although I a... (Below threshold)
G.Kant:

@sada:

Although I am not a christian, I tell You, that all the things You quoted from the bible is written in the Old Testament. But christians gain their believe first and foremost out of the New Testament, especially Christ's Sermon on the Mount. And: Most of the christinas don't follow the bible word by word, as muslims do with the qur'an.

Each "holy book" is a mess, when it becomes an unreflected method of the way of acting.

Kant, so they dont follow t... (Below threshold)
sada:

Kant, so they dont follow the old testament anymore? why? is it because some of the things it says are too ridiculous for anyone to follow today? well that should give christians a clue that maybe they arent following the true religion? they are just making more things up as time passess by, and call it something like the "New Testament" ... the quran... it hasn't changed once, muslims still follow it and havent changed a word in it.

Hi Sada, You didn't get my ... (Below threshold)
G.Kant:

Hi Sada, You didn't get my point.

Every religion, every "holy book" is stupid, if You take them word-by-word. Christians interpreted much (not all) of this stuff, which was written in the bible and adapted it to the changing demands of time. Christians developed, in spite of the bible, high ethical principles, which go far beyond the moral laws of the bible, i.e. human rights, democracy, liberty.

Muslims follow the Qur'an word-by-word, and exactly THAT is the reason for the backwardness of muslim countries. That is the reason why muslim countries live like in medieval ages and missed the
connection to the 21. century.

Hello Sada,You are r... (Below threshold)
Angel Robles:

Hello Sada,
You are right Sada I do feel bitter inside right now, and I know that it is not a healthy feeling. I love to be care-free and friendly to everyone that I meet. I just recently met a group of people that are "Persian", and I am trying to learn more from them to better understand them, and try and lose some of the bitterness that I have. I agree with you that parts of the old -testiment confuse me with their violent acts, and I attribute this to God's wrath and punishment for sin, but the new testiment of Christ says to love thy neighbor (I guess Mexican and Canadian not own them!), to turn the other cheeck when struck and to offer the other cheeck as well, it also says that the meek shall inherit the earth. The new testiment says that vengance belongs to the lord, and we should therefore not seek it ourselves. See as a Christian I strive to be Christ-like, and I recognize that I am only human and make mistakes, but believe me I do try. I'm sorry that I could not qoute the bible with exact passages right now I just don't have time, because it's finals week right now at my university. Until then may peace with you Sada, and everyone else in this website, I hope you all have an awsome day!

One more thing Sada Christi... (Below threshold)
Angel M. Robles:

One more thing Sada Christians have never changed the bible, and today we follow the same bible that we followed thousands of years ago. But one quick question concerning the Old Testiment, and please correct me if i'm wrong Sada, but don't Muslims also consider people from the Old Testiment like Abraham, Issak, etc, To be prophets or men of God? Your qoutes are all Old Testiment quotes, and aren't these men and their messages also studied in Islam? let me know when you get a chance please.

Well, Kant... if you think ... (Below threshold)
sada:

Well, Kant... if you think all religions are stupid then so be it, i am not a religious person myself so i won't convince you otherwise. I dont think it is because of the quran that muslims are still living like its the 1800s. I think it's the cultures in the middle east that have held those people from connecting to the 21st century. I.E. Iran - i wish i knew the guys name but i dont... he made Laws and said that they were Sharia laws, (from the quran), some of the laws were so bizarre and so twisted and therefore were NOT islamic, this has been going on for years. Plus there are leaders that arise who prevent women and men getting a good education due to how things were with people financially...( i hope you get what i'm trying to say.) Same thing has happened with Afghanistan, and Pakistan, and many other parts of that area.

Anyways..


Angel Roberts- I promise you that there are NICE and loving muslims out there who follow quran strictly. You seem kind, and Since you said you go to univ. im guessing you are rather young, still have much to learn. If you go out and meet muslims your view about islam will change. My family is a good example, i even use to talk to some people who said they hated afghans (I'm afghan) because he thought we were all osama-loving america-hating terrorists. He met my family and totally changed, and is even going out with an Afghan girl (lol)

Anyways... how many bibles are out there? A lot.. and they have been changed or in Islamic term "Corrupted." I didn't mean to bash the old testament i was only trying to prove a point. But according to Islam there was ONE bible that very few christians followed but was automatically changed. No christian follows that OLD bible , i dont even know if that bible exists. The quran does state that the people of the book (bible, torah) will also enter paradise in the hereafter. But the people of the book... very few exist today. Bible has changed, and so has the torah.. it's been "corrupted"

Yes I am rather young I'm 2... (Below threshold)
Angel Robles:

Yes I am rather young I'm 28, but I have seen my fare share of beautiful things in this world, as well as things that just break my heart as a human to have witnassed. I don't agree with you that the Christian bible has been changed though, and I was just wondering why you keep saying that my bible has been corrupted?

In Afghanistan today a man ... (Below threshold)
Angel Robles:

In Afghanistan today a man by the name of Abdul Rahaman has been sentenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity over 16 years ago. Under Sharia Law (based on the teachings of the Koran) Abdul Rahaman is going to be killed because when asked to convert back to Islam he refused. Mr. Abdul Rahaman has only recently moved back to Afghanistan after living for nine years in Germany, and has been working as an aid worker since the fall of the Taliban. A neighbor of Abdul Rahaman has told reporters "For thirty years, we have fought religous wars in this country and there is no way we are going to allow an Afghan to insult us by becoming a Christian" said Mohammed Jan, 38, who lives opposite Rahman's father, Abdul Manan, in Kabul. " This has brought so much shame". The White house and other countries have expressed shock, and Bush has asked for Rahaman to be able to practice Christianity in peace in Afghanistan. The authorities in Kabul have started to claim that Rahman is mentally unfit to stand trial in order to save him from being murdered by his country-men. Is being a Christian grounds to be considered being mentally unfit? Is Christianity which is an older religion than Islam, and which has similar divisions in it like Catholics(which interpit the bible in one way, and Baptist (which follow a more orthadox interpertation of the bible). Islam has a major rift between Sunnis and Shites, which came about after infighting about who was to succede Mohammed. So who is right Sunnis say that Shites are evil, and Shites say the same about Sunnis. Well the truth is that neither partys are evil, and they both just follow the backwards and evil teachings of a man that roamed arabia a few hundred years ago raping and killing everyone that didn't want to follow him! We have people like this in the Christian faith, people like David Koresh who claimed to be a prophet of God, and basically did the same thing as Mohammed (Rob and Rape), but we recognize the difference between who is a quack, and who is really inspired by God, by there actions. Islam is an intolerant and evil religion, and in the New Testement it warns us of new religions that will spring up in the end times that will gain large followings, but will be inspired by evil. Look up the story for yourselves I found it on my homepage news at SBC Yahoo news, and see for yourselves how intolerant Islam is, and will always be.

Hi Angel, don't follow Sada... (Below threshold)
G.Kant:

Hi Angel, don't follow Sada on the "garden path". I mean, don't make a competition which of the holy books (Qur'an or Bible) is the better one and not "corrupted",. That this is a usless discussion.

The whole world is witness of this catastrophic appearance of fundamental Islam.
"You recognize them in the things they do."

Thank you, G.Kant I come to... (Below threshold)
Angel Robles:

Thank you, G.Kant I come to the same conclusion as you as well, thank you for your kind words.

(This is a follow-up to a c... (Below threshold)
rajengineer:

(This is a follow-up to a comment posted on March 16, by Angel Robles)

According to our current understanding/definition of what constitutes terrorism, or a terrorist act, the Stern Gang would be considered a terrorist organization, and their fighting an occupying force (in their case, the British) would be an act of terrorism. We in the west used to make a distinction between terrorists and freedom fighters, depending on how we felt not about the tactics used, but about the political/social goals gone after. We no longer make such distinctions. Whether or not you think that these distinctions should or shouldn't be made, you have to concede the point that according to this new understanding, the Stern Gang was a terrorist organization - and whether or not the Jewish Palestinian population at large supported their cause or their methods, the Jewish Palestinian population as a whole did benefit from the pressure these terrorists imposed on the British and the UN.

In much the same way, we in America are largely seen as a bastion of freedom and democracy today - but we all profit from the years of exploitation, broken promises, broken treaties, and atrocities that the government either condoned or actively participated in. We as a nation not only allowed for slavery, we also forcibly moved the Indians, waged war, and killed them off. We also exploited Asian labor in the west, and denied US citizenship to children of Asian descent, born in America. Over time, there were steps taken to correct or account for these historical injustices - but at the same time, there were other shameful acts too. Some were also in the distant past, and others are fairly recent.

Now, I'd be the first person to admit, that I don't feel so strongly about America's shameful past that I'm willing to give up my citizenship and the benefits afforded to me because of it, but neither can I lie to myself or others, pretending that the past is true, and that these awful truths don't inform our present and our future.

With respect to Dr. Sultan, her lack of real knowledge/understanding about historical events and the context in which they occur seems indicative of a much larger problem; her opinions are set so firmly in her mind, that she doesn't want to deal with anything that challenges those opinions/beliefs.

I think that terrorism is wrong. I also think that in most cases, terrorist acts are committed by desperate people, with real complaints, and little hope of immediate redress within normal, civil society. They're desperate people pushed to the edge - and it's not enough to stop terrorist acts. We have to deal with their underlying concerns too. In dealing with their underlying concerns (social, economic and political) we have to concede that their concerns are not always compatible with our own concerns in the west - and we must be prepared to make real concessions. For instance, if we support/encourage democracy, that support/encouragement has to be consistent - even when the outcome is a democratically elected government with policies that aren't in the best interests of the US. We can't selectively support democracy, just like we can't selectively condone terrorist acts.

Lastly, if we can help to create/restore a sense of hopefulness among many Muslims around the world today, we can limit the appeal that terrorism has for many.

For the record though -... (Below threshold)
rajengineer:

For the record though -

I don't think that a person should be condemned to death for practicing an unpopular religion - especially if the practicing of that religion doesn't infringe on other people's rights. We in the west should stand up and say something. We don't have a policy of isolationism, and it's incumbent on us to force these human rights issues when they arise. We must also realize that others are watching us, to see if we're consistent in the message we preach - and to see if we consistently practice the message.

Once again, for the record -

A man shouldn't be punished it all for practicing a religion that's unpolular. Making a religion illegal is just wrong.

ok first of all, u are not ... (Below threshold)
sada:

ok first of all, u are not young if ur 28.. anyways..
angel have you been to afghanistan? your 'christian' or whatever religion american soldiers kill people (in iraq and other places as well) just for being an afghan and being muslim, and you know that, don't deny it. this happend a long time ago... dont know if u remember this, an american soldier who was stationed in afghanistan stepped or did something that was highly disrespectful to the quran. you make it seem like only muslims are the evil doers. when u are on the other side of the enemy line you only think that you are the people who are doing good and acting civil. cross that line see how the muslims r living. go and see the daily life of a palestinian, afghani, iraqi, arab israeli.
you dont know until u live the life there so pls stop making accusations that we are all plain evil and intolerant of others.

G Kant - I agree and I do a... (Below threshold)
sada:

G Kant - I agree and I do apologize for mocking your bible. Islam does Teach that muslims should have tolerance of people of other faith and to never put down any persons religion because they all have a connection to God. Insulting a religion, wheither it be judaism, hinduism, islam, christianity, is like insulting God.

Hi Sada,in the meanw... (Below threshold)
G.Kant:

Hi Sada,
in the meanwhile, I think, that You are wilfully misunderstanding me. You may say about "my" bible, what You want. I don't care about that.

I am argueing against Your narrow-minded thinking, aganinst Your silly and stupid view of the world, against Your believe, that Qur'an or Bible, or whatever, contains the words of God.

Come on, insult the Bibel as long as You want! Perhaps, as a result, You finally become able to get a critical view even of your "holy" book, the Qur'an, itself.

Sada,You can assume ... (Below threshold)
Angel Robles:

Sada,
You can assume whatever you want (just like you did when you assumed I was a little kid, and ya, I have seen my share of soldering, but after that I'm trying to do good in this world by helping others by becoming a doctor (hmmm, that takes like eight or nine years to do, I guess all college students aren't 19, but then again ignorance leads people to create their own assumptions). I have seen how the Palestinians live, and I wonder why they still live in squalid refugee camps? it's because other arab governments don't give a rats ass about the Palesinians and they keep them purposley living in a squalid refugee camps, in order to continue to push the right of return to Palestinians who laughed and said that the combined arab armies would throw the Zionists back into the ocean. Lol, well by God's good grace that didn't happen, and these people live the way they do because of their own Arab neighbors, and because of no one else. Yes I do know the geonicide that this country committed against my people. My Mother is Nez Perez, and My father is Mexican, and both had large parts of their countries stolen in acts of aggression by the United States of America, and the U.S has invaded my Mexico on three different occassions. We even have a group of young men that died to the last man while defending the castle of Chapultepec who today in Mexico are called "Los Ninos Heroes" or "The Child Heroes", and they fought bravely and died like men face to face with their enemies, and not like brainwashed cowards hiding in buildings and taking potshots at soldiers, and then running away, Or strapping on bomg-belts and stepping on to a bus filled with women and children. These very men sent their by their own religous leaders, and qauzi-religous groups like Islamic-jihad, by quacks with names like Abu-Jihad (father holy-war). These groups send mostly poor un-educated kids off to their deaths, and don't care who they kill! These groups or both shite and sunni so I don't want to hear no more bull about, Oh Sunni's are evil and Shite's are good, and true followers of Islam! Give me a break you both follow the same Koran, and you just follow different religous leaders who both preach the same fiery-crap. And no Sada we don't kill people for working on the Sabbath no more because in the old-Testement all sins where punishable by death according to the Lord "The wages of sin are death", and with the coming of the Messiah Jesus Christ the son of God, all of are sins where washed away with his blood. Christ was the last sacrifice, and that is why he came into this world to give us a chance to reach heaven. This is why christians don't follow the old-Testement practices of sacrifice and capital punishment for sins. When they found the dead sea scrolls, which are thousands of years old, they compared the books to the current St. James version of the bible, and found that they where the same, so Sada when was the bible ever changed by Christians? Dr. Wafa Sultan doesn't say that Arabs are evil people she says that Islam is an evil, intolerant, and backwards religion so get your facts right, Sada about her before you make your assumptions about her! One of the things she says that what other religion names people that aren't of the same religion "Those who incur the wrath of God" because that is what your religous leaders like to call christians. You should be gratefull for our good soldiers being in places like Afhganistan and Iraq because we are fighting a war of good vs evil over there! You are able to practice your intolerant religion because Americans are dieing oversees to give you your freedom. So you should show some appreciation for your country, and Dr. Wafa Sultan doesn't criticize the U.S because of it's past policies because the U.S is not trying to forget it's past, but it's moving forward and trying to atone for it's past transgressions. Mexico lost half of it's country in the early nineteenth century to the U.S through war, but today many Mexicans live in this country and enjoy it's freedoms and love this country. I was a U.S.M.C and in our opening Marine Corps hymm they sing "From the Halls of Montezuma to the shore of Tripoli". The Halls of Montezuma directly refer to the Marines involvement in the taking of my other capital Mexico City. My mother's tribe was almost wiped out by the U.S in the nineteenth century, and now there are several programs out there to help Native Americans through tribal government that the U.S let's us do. So Sada How dare you say that I don't know what's going on in this world, and about suffering at the hands of the U.S. My people have bled, but this country is forward thinking and is making amends for it's past while embracing a glorious future. I love this land, and the country I live in, and Islam is what it is an evil, intolerant, and backwards religion that breeds nothing but violence and hate, just like the false prophet who started it Mohamed (my sadika).

Oh my god, get a life guys.... (Below threshold)
sada:

Oh my god, get a life guys. Angel i couldnt read the novel u typed..sorry, but anyways, im not a religous person and i really dont care about religion, at my age.. religion is the last thing that would be on my mind. angel & kant , dont get so offended by what ive said. it only shows how insecure u must be about ur own beliefs and whatnot. I really dont care what people follow, wheither it be the bible, quran, torah.. i dont care, as long as everyone can learn to respect other faiths and learn to live with them w/o criticising them.. and inthe muslim case.... why do you judge the whole religion based on what some fanatic arabs did? they twist the meaning of verses in quran, and pretty much make up their own rules and laws,, and if people dont follow it, they get killed. Point being... Islam isnt a religion of violence, as people may think it be. You can pick and chose certain verses from the quran and over read the meaning of it. For example.. theres this surah about jihad, and people would ask why stuff like "smite the kafirs head off.." is in there? well hello, the whole surah is about booties ( i dont know how to spell it..) of war. About what happens if you cross the line with the muslims..

Hi Sada,once again I... (Below threshold)
G.Kant:

Hi Sada,
once again I repeat: 'You recognize them in the things they do.'
So one can get the opinion, that Islam is a violent, backwarded, narrow-minded and inhuman religion, which turns against democracy, human rights, freedom and liberty.

"why do you judge the whole religion based on what some fanatic arabs did?"
Because there are not "some" fanatics, but many, many of them. Because dozens of verses in the quran urge these fanatics to act as they do.

"they twist the meaning of verses in quran ... Islam isnt a religion of violence"
The following are pure and untwisted quran-verses:
[38.44] And take in your hand a green branch and beat her ...
2.228: and the men are a degree above them..
[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends;
[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them ... such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you
[9.5] ... slay the idolaters wherever you find them, ... then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free

LOL "the whole surah is abo... (Below threshold)
G.Kant:

LOL "the whole surah is about women ( i dont know how to spell it..) . About what happens if you cross the line with women":

4.34: good women are therefore obedient
[38.44] And take in your hand a green branch and beat her ...
[4.11-12] The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females

Sada, You will always find words to excuse Your silly and inhuman religion.

BUT I DON'T BELIEVE YOU!

Dear Sada,"Individ... (Below threshold)
G.Kant:

Dear Sada,

"Individual Islamists may appear law-abiding and reasonable, but they are part of a totalitarian movement, and as such, all must be considered potential killers."


Read the whole article:

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/3450

For the record,Fuck ... (Below threshold)
Angel Robles:

For the record,
Fuck Islam! I piss on the Koran! Is that short enough for you to read Sada. I would include that false phrophets name in that first sentence to but like Sada I catn speil etier!

Angel - i am not writing an... (Below threshold)
sada:

Angel - i am not writing an essay so no need to impress anyone with my spelling/grammar skills. :)
well, all this hate you bring towards muslim is going to help the cause of reducing terrorism? dont be a smart ass and get real, if you want all the terrorism from arabs or other so called muslims to stop, then maybe the attitude of some people such as yourself, should change to a more positive and open minded one. in the middle east, do they make fun of jesus , the bible, or the christians for believing in what they believe? No, but many other people do... atheists, agnostics, jews, etc etc.

G. Kant - that is what you get in many religious books.. in christianity, the old testament.. the actual unchanged bible also states to beat your wife lightly if she isnt submissive, theres also a nother place where it says a woman is not allowed to speak in a church unless a man tells her to..in the torah, theres also places that state how a man is to lightly beat his wife if she isnt submissive.

Now, look at america today. How many battered women shelters are there? what are the divorce rates? how many woman (even the pregnant ones) are abused or killed by their husband every day? Look at how many bastards there are in the u.s.a. Many men..who feel woman or nothing but a piece of meat or eye candy, sleep with a woman, she could turn out pregnant, and then.. what happens? he leaves her, no marriage, no committment, no love.. nothing.

We can go on and on like th... (Below threshold)
Angel Robles:

We can go on and on like this forever, but in truth in America statistics get recorded, and most are public information. How many Muslim women are abused and killed in Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia? How many honor killings are performed by fathers and brothers of Muslim women in Muslim countries? How many crimes against women go un-reported in these Muslim countries? How many women are publicly stoned to death because they decided to be with a Muslim man out of wedlock, and when the man left them they where stoned to death because of it? So what if some people in America make fun of strange foreign customs. Many men and women have died so that we may have the right to speak our minds here! You are so quick to criticize the U.S, and maybe you should go back to a Muslim country where there are no battered women shelters! People like you need to see what it is to live in one of these backwards societies so that you can truly appreciate the United States, and I'm not saying the U.S is perfect. I don't hate Arabs or Persians or whatever other middle-eastern nationality you can think of. I hate Islam and it's backwards and inhuman ways, and Yeah Americans might make fun of Islam but we aren't making videos where are citizens inhumanly decapitate men and women of other beliefs with small steak knifes!

And talk about unchanged bi... (Below threshold)
Angel Robles:

And talk about unchanged bibles the Muslims have written an entire new book! The New Testement hasn't been changed for two thousand years since the times of Jesus Christ! Sada is just repeating what some Islamist Koranist taught her to say like a parrot about the Christian Bible. Aren't these the same people who send kids out to blow themselves up and to kill as many inocent women and children as possible in the name of Islam?

And talk about unchanged bi... (Below threshold)
Angel Robles:

And talk about unchanged bibles the Muslims have written an entire new book! The New Testement hasn't been changed for two thousand years since the times of Jesus Christ! Sada is just repeating what some Islamist Koranist taught her to say like a parrot about the Christian Bible. Aren't these the same people who send kids out to blow themselves up and to kill as many inocent women and children as possible in the name of Islam?

Dear Sada,perhaps Yo... (Below threshold)
G.Kant:

Dear Sada,
perhaps You are right, that the old testament states to beat your wife. I don't care about that, because:
1. I told You, that christians consider foremost the NEW testament (it's my opinion, I am not religious).
2. This is very important: Christians do NOT think, that it is allowed to beat their wifes. This is a great difference to the muslims. On the contrary, for christians it is forbidden to beat women and it is a crime, which is punished by law. Muslims, on the other hand, beat their wives and think they are allowed to do so by Quran. No christian would argue with the Bible, that he is allowed to beat his wife. That's the difference!
3. Once again, I state, that it is a useless discussion, which of the "holy" books is the better one, because they are all "shit books".

My "holy book" is the
Universal Declaration of Human Rights
"Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,

Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,
...
Whereas the peoples of the United Nations have in the Charter reaffirmed their faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person and in the equal rights of men and women and have determined to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom, ... "

This is only part of the Preamble.

If You want to read more: http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

Sada, when You "look at america today...", what do You want to say? I agree, that there is not enough love in the world. We could discuss, if Your view is too dramatic. But what do you want to point out, when You state this evil? Do You honestly want to argue, that the quran is a better choice for women than liberty and democracy?

"Moderate" Muslims Muddy... (Below threshold)
G.Kant:

"Moderate" Muslims Muddy the Waters

Read it:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/JacobThomas60408.htm

Wafa Sultan's Lies already ... (Below threshold)
ARI:
God bless Wafa Sultan for s... (Below threshold)
Mark Vaughan:

God bless Wafa Sultan for speaking the truth!!!




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