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Illegal aliens, French Unionists, and the quotations of Chairman Mao

A lot of people are remarking about the protests in Los Angeles and elsewhere, where illegal aliens and "immigration advocates" spoke out against the proposed immigration-reform bill that just passed the House. One element that has garnered a great deal of attention is the large number of Mexican flags that showed up at the protests, in the hands of protesters.

Some say there is no real cause for concern. After all, we see scads of Italian flags on Columbus day, Irish emblems are everywhere on St. Paddy's, and so on. This is no big deal.

The major difference is that this is March, nowhere near Cinqo De Mayo. This wasn't a one-day event to celebrate the contributions of people of Mexican ancestry, this was a protest, a demand for political concessions and major changes in our national policy.

When I see protesters making those kinds of demands, accompanied with threats (a one-day strike), while waving those flags, I hear a very specific message: "if the government doesn't give us what we want, we'll find a government that will." And when there are also banners that proclaim "THIS LAND IS STOLEN LAND," the implication is even clearer -- we won't go to that government, we'll bring that government here.

I like to think I'm typically American in some ways. In one of them, I don't take threats well. If you have a bad situation, and want changes, then ASK for them. Appeal to our sympathies, our sense of justice, our sense of fairness. Do NOT threaten us -- that's the surest way to assure many of us will NEVER comply with your wishes.

The "immigration advocates" remind me of the young protesters in France, demanding that the protections the unions enjoy be preserved. In both cases, we have groups of people who are seeing a threat to the privileges and license they have enjoyed for years, and are demanding that not only their special protections be preserved, but in some cases expanded -- at the expense of a system that can no longer afford them.

One of Chairman Mao's most famous quotes was that "all political power comes from the barrel of a gun." To extend his metaphor, he didn't quite take into account a nation where all citizens have the right to possess their own gun -- his observation only holds when one side has a virtual monopoly on the guns. In the United States, we are well-equipped to counter Mao's notion.

And if the "immigration advocates" keep pushing, there is a very good chance that they shall reap the backlash they have been inciting for far too long.


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Comments (23)

What draws illegal aliens t... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:

What draws illegal aliens to the U.S. is primarily jobs. What makes illegal aliens attractive to business interests is cheap labor. To have an impact on illegal immigration you have to control the jobs at both ends; both the employee and the employer.

Here's my take on the elements needed to solve the problem. To answer the claim by business that they can't get residents to fill jobs the law would include a guest worker program to supply that labor need. This guest worker program would require a public database of how many guest workers each employer has on their payroll so the public can see who's abusing the system. The law would require guest workers to be covered by minimum wage, workers compensation, social security, income tax, unemployment insurance, and COBRA health insurance rules. When a guest workers' permit expires they are required to leave the country, but they get back the social security that was taken out of their wages with interest. Working full time at minimum wage for 6 years and with 4% annual interest, the social security payout would be around $5500 when the worker leaves the country. The employer's half of the social security tax goes to offset the cost of running the system. Employer's would have the workers they need, but at no cost advantage over legal residents. Any business that requires employer's to cheat on payroll taxes is not a viable business in the first place and should be forced out of business, simply because no legitimate business can compete with them. The market has to be fair at least within our borders.

The second part is enforcement. Have your border patrol like before, but the key is being able to enforce the job market. The government will establish a low cost simple procedure employers can follow when hiring employees. If they follow this procedure, the employer is immune from any action should an employee turn out to be an illegal alien. It's a voluntary system because if you hire your kid or someone you know is a citizen there's no need to check. The enforcement is done by private enterprise. The government offers a $500 reward per illegal alien that anyone finds working. The $500 comes from the employer unless they followed the approved procedure, then the money comes out of the social security fund I talked about above. An illegal alien can turn himself in and collect the $500 minus the cost of sending him back home. If an illegal alien turns in others besides himself, he collects $500 per head just like anyone else. This does not apply to illegal aliens who are not working. They are handled as they are under the current law.

The advantages of this system are that business can get the labor force they need, but at domestic worker prices. Employees can immunize themselves against fines simply by following the approved procedure, yet it's voluntary. Guest workers have rights, benefits, and the protection of the law for themselves and their families. Enforcement would be done by millions of individuals, some professional, some who just happen to know about illegal aliens, and even by illegal aliens themselves. Soon no employer would dare hire someone they didn't know personally without following the approved procedure. With no jobs and an viable guest worker program, there's nothing to draw the millions for illegal aliens we have now.

I posted something like this before on WizBang and got some good criticism that I've incorporated into the above plan. So, what changes would make this plan even better?

[email protected] Mac Lorry<... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

@ Mac Lorry

Sorry but I disagree about the guest worker program. I have yet to see a single implementation of a guest worker program that hasn't caused even worse problems.

1. Japan has a guest worker program. Generally these people are treated as second class citizens, cannot become citizens and are largely treated as proles.

2. Germany has/had a guest worker program that mostly involved Turks. Now they've got millions of "guest workers" and their families. They speak German. Was born in Germany. Act German. Eat German food. Listen to German music.

Yet they are not German, cannot become German and are constantly the subject of attacks by skinheads who see them as *competition* and as outsiders.

Additionally this outsider/inside setup has also created a wellspring of potential and actual terrorists.

3. France had a guest worker program:

You know how that's turned out.

...

Show me one single example of a guest worker program that has actually worked and didn't cause more problems than they solved?

Oh that's right. There is one. Saudi Arabia. Where guest workers from India, Bangladesh, Indonesia so forth are hired to work there. Of course they're treated as menials, have no rights, have their passports routinely taken away and then treated as if they were slaves including repeated rapes.

Any other examples out there?

Guest worker programs are not the solution. They are just another problem.

What is the solution?

1. Control the borders.

2. Require proper identification at the polls for voting. I'm frankly convinced that many illegals participate in voting.

3. Deport all illegals. NO AMNESTY WHATSOEVER.

Frankly if the Republicans implement amnesty in any way, shape or form then I will never, for the rest of my life, ever vote Republican. To me that is tantamount to treason and I don't support treason.

4. Increase the quotas for LEGAL immigrants to a reasonable level.

5. Reform the immigration process so it's not so bloody crazy. It can take 3-4 YEARS of endlessly repeated trips to the INS office to go through the monkey dance that is legal immigration. This is entirely unnecessary and must be streamlined.

If someone wants to legally immigrate then put them through a background check and if they're clean then give them a temporary work visa for one year. If they've established themselves and show a desire to become an American then put them through a **1** week process that culminates in their becoming a Naturalized Citizen.

...

The answer isn't a subcaste of workers, a Prole Nation. The answer lies in new citizens of America. America has always been renewed from abroad, and it always will be. We need to continue this process, but never with a caste of almost indentured servants.

We don't need workers. We need citizens.

(sorry I rambled. still rather asleep and not fully awake. no doubt my writing is all over the place. *shrug*)

ed, you were up to full ste... (Below threshold)

ed, you were up to full steam on that one. Are you sure you, JT, and Mac didn't conspire to write this beforehand.

I say the score is guestworker 0000 Secure Borders 1000.

For more analysis against illegals, check out Bird's postings.

http://www.suzyrice.com/BIRD/

(Corrected by editor at epador's request)

Here's my issue with this w... (Below threshold)
Cro:

Here's my issue with this whole thing regardless of the economics. It's about FAIRNESS. My wife is Quebecois. We were married just before I left the military. It took us years (because of the 93 amnesty) to get her paperwork through the INS. It took a good deal of money that I couldn't really afford at the time. But we went through the system and now my wife is naturalized (last year). Her sister would like to come to the states but for siblings it is a 12 year waiting list... but the paperwork has been created and she will wait.

Why do these MF'ers think they deserve better than me?! Because they speak Spanish they think they should get some special dispensation? That is total 100% BS. Get your asses in line like the rest of us. These folks are no better than line jumpers at a concert or movie...and lord knows we'd beat the piss out of those folks.

Like JT, I think I'm typical of most Americans...the last thing you want to do is threaten us.... This protest last weekend just about guarantees that we will build a wall between the US and Mexico.

Illegals have no standing to DEMAND anything from AMERICANS.

Mac Lorry,I apprec... (Below threshold)
docjim505:

Mac Lorry,

I appreciate the time, effort, and thought that went into devising your plan.

May I offer my own, which I think has the virtue of simplicity:

Build a tall fence along the border between the United States and Mexico. Patrol it vigorously. Arrest and deport any person caught trying to illegally cross the border. Make it clear that any group that tries to cross the border bearing arms will be repelled, if necessary, by the US armed forces. In addition, prosecute any person who knowingly employs illegal aliens. Finally, open more US consulates in northern Mexico and improve / streamline the process for conducting background checks and issuing visas to people who want to come here legally.

Some say there is no cau... (Below threshold)

Some say there is no cause for concern. Yes, the frog is in the water, and we'll just keep heating the water very, ver-r-ry slowly, slowly now. . .

ed,The guest worke... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:

ed,

The guest worker program is a political concession to businesses that claim they can't get legal residents to do hard and dirty jobs. Maybe that's not enough of an issue to offset the problems you wrote about. I was thinking myself, what to do about kids born in the U.S. to guest workers and didn't come up with a good answer.

Assuming no guest workers, what do you think about the other two aspects of my plan.

1) Having a simple government approved procedure employers can use to immunize themselves from the consequences of unknowingly hiring an illegal alien.

2) Ofering a bounty to anyone to turn in an employed illegal alien, including the alien themselves.


epador,

There's been no collusion between Jay Tea and myself on this or any other topic. I'm just a run of the mill WizBang reader and commenter.

docjim505,Your pla... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:

docjim505,

Your plan may be the direction we will actually go, but I believe a bounty on employed illegal aliens would be nearly as effective, and if the bounty is paid by employers not using the approved process, it would cost a lot less tax dollars as well.

Mac Lorry,A bounty... (Below threshold)
docjim505:

Mac Lorry,

A bounty is an interesting idea, but I confess that it makes me uncomfortable at first glance as it seems perilously close to a police-state system of inducing everybody to be an informant. Further, as much as I want to keep illegal immigration as low as possible, I don't like the idea of, well, treating illegal aliens as criminals, or of putting them in the position where they can be blackmailed. I guess this demonstrates some irrationality in my thinking...

Anyway, I'd rather spend the bulk of the effort on stopping illegal border crossings while making it easier for honest people to come legally into our country.

docjim505,Illegal ... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:

docjim505,

Illegal aliens are already in a position where they can be blackmailed, including by their employer. I don't believe a bounty would add to that potential, yet it gives private citizens strong motivation to turn in illegals. We already have such a system for individual crimes when a reward is offered.

I don't think we can make the boarder secure enough to stop illegal immigration given the flow of trade between the U.S. and Mexico. We really have to take away the reason illegals come here in order to get control of the situation.

Mac Lorry,You're r... (Below threshold)
docjim505:

Mac Lorry,

You're right, of course... Offering a bounty is just an idea that makes me uncomfortable.

Make hiring without reconci... (Below threshold)
bryanD:

Make hiring without reconciling social security numbers a felony. Show lots of bend-over-and-spread-em PSAs during Kudlow and Friends.

[email protected] Mac Lorry</... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

@ Mac Lorry

1.

The guest worker program is a political concession to businesses that claim they can't get legal residents to do hard and dirty jobs.

In my mind that is not sufficient justification to create a subcaste here in America. India has had such a thing for centuries and it's only now that they're finally getting rid of it.

Do we really want to create a caste of Untouchables just to assuage some CEO's? I'm very pro-business but that's beyond my capacity.

2.

I was thinking myself, what to do about kids born in the U.S. to guest workers and didn't come up with a good answer.

In order for a guest worker program to work then we would have to adopt the German model. Children of guest workers are not and cannot be American citizens.

That seems to be the most corrosive concept I can possibly imagine. The essential and fundamental lede in America is that of equality. Implementation of a guest worker program requires the implementation and institutionalisation of inequality.

3.

1) Having a simple government approved procedure employers can use to immunize themselves from the consequences of unknowingly hiring an illegal alien.

That's a complete non-starter.

If you give someone a legal means of avoiding consequences, then you've just eliminated any and all reasons for following the law.

Instead what should be done is to provide simplified means of verification of employment eligibility. Make it easy, quick and painless. And then increase the penalties for those who don't avail themselves of this system.

4.

2) Ofering a bounty to anyone to turn in an employed illegal alien, including the alien themselves.

I'm rather uncomfortable with this because of the potential for problems. It would worry me that someone might take this as an excuse to go overboard and do something that'll end up on the MSM night and day, and that could heavily damage the opposition to illegal immigration.

Frankly I think most people would do this without the bounty. But if it were setup so as to avoid any sort of "bounty hunter" madness then I could support it.

But without improved abilities to deport, it might just be a revolving wheel.

5.

There's been no collusion between Jay Tea and myself on this or any other topic. I'm just a run of the mill WizBang reader and commenter.

ditto.

6. Frankly I think one potential technique would be to charge the host country for the arrest, incarceration, judgement and deportation costs.

I.e. if it costs $30,000 to arrest, incarcerate, judge and deport an illegal alien that crossed from Mexico, then by rights Mexico should bear the costs. If they crossed from Canada, then Canada should bear that expense.

We need a means of punishing the border country if they don't take appropriate steps to secure the border.

...

I'm in complete agreement that we need immigrants. As a first generation immigrant myself, I was born in South Korea and adopted by a wonderful American couple, I'm certainly not going to oppose legal immigration. I'd have to be an idiot for that to happen. (no comments from the peanut gallery please)

But I'm absolutely opposed to illegal immigration.

It's not just the national security angle. Nor is it entirely the financial aspect. It is in part a measure of respect and assimilation. We shouldn't want people who maintain themselves apart from this nation. We don't want Mexicans here in America. We want *Americans* here in America.

If they were born in Mexico City, what do I care? Where a person was born is just as immaterial as how humble that birth was. What is important is that these people must desire to BE American. To adopt America as their country. To have their loyalty to America first. Not as Mexicans living in America out of convenience and jobs. But as new Americans that want to build a life and a nation.

And getting back to an earlier comment; We REALLY need to reform the immigration process. It's slow. Cumbersome. Expensive. And it absolutely does not have to be that way. I'd suggest that most legal immigrants won't ever cause any trouble. Why the immigration process is setup to assume that each individual immigrant is a potential criminal that must prove otherwise is entirely beyond me. I frankly think it's idiotic.

If the Republicans want to really make legal immigrants happy then they can sit down and reform legal immigration.

bryanD,Certainly t... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:

bryanD,

Certainly there has to be meaningful sanctions against employers. The problem with criminalizing the hiring of an illegal is who do you charge when the business is a big corporation? Can you expect the CEO to personally conduct the checking, whatever that process is? If not, then it's some low level employee that gets charged, and the company just hires another person to fill that spot and then tells them they have to hire some number of workers to do some crap job for minimum wage. Nothing is changed. Also, criminal law requires proof of intent as well as the facts of the case beyond a reasonable doubt. The process is expensive for the state as well as the defendant.

On the other hand, if hiring illegals it's treated as an employment violation (like being late on your 941 tax filing), then the company pays a fine and loses the illegal employee. At say $1,000 each offense, it won't take long for employers to be dissuaded, particularly if anyone can turn in the illegals and collect a reward.

ed wrote (March 27, 2006 12... (Below threshold)
docjim505:

ed wrote (March 27, 2006 12:54 PM):

The essential and fundamental lede in America is that of equality. Implementation of a guest worker program requires the implementation and institutionalisation of inequality.

...

If they were born in Mexico City, what do I care? Where a person was born is just as immaterial as how humble that birth was. What is important is that these people must desire to BE American. To adopt America as their country. To have their loyalty to America first. Not as Mexicans living in America out of convenience and jobs. But as new Americans that want to build a life and a nation.

Hear, hear!

ed,You're a wise m... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:

ed,

You're a wise man and you have convinced me that any guest worker program causes more problems than it solves. Lets drop that whole idea.

As for an employer doing some kind of background check, I think we're close to agreement. I think its up to the government to prescribe a procedure and provide the infrastructure to make it possible for small businesses to hire people without long delays or risking fines. Many small business have just a few employees and the owners can't be expected to be experts in conducting background checks.

What I envision is an on-line system where an employer enters the usual data that's asked of anyone applying for a job. The employer than gets a confirmation number back showing that they have provided the required information. If it turns out the applicant is an illegal, the employer is off the hook. Otherwise, it's going to take too long and be too much of a burden for small mom and pop operations to deal with, and our immigration laws should put otherwise legitimate business out of business because of burdensome regulations.

I still like the bounty as it will force the government to enforce the law. People are going to want their money and raise hell if some INS offices try to look the other way. Unlike, a criminal bounty, private citizens would not be taking anyone into custody. The employer is not going anywhere and because it's not a criminal charge, much less evidence is needed for the government to collect the fine.

You're also right that we need to improve the legal immigration system. We should have a comprehensive package that addresses all the issues rather then a patchwork of laws that don't work together. As you can see, plenty of people are willing to offer ideas on how to improve the system. Congress just needs to get on-line with the American people to come up with a good plan.

Mac Lorry, I think this who... (Below threshold)
bryanD:

Mac Lorry, I think this whole situation is being over-analyzed. I would hold the OFFICERS of the corporation responsible for the failure of the HR dept's failure to obey hiring laws. Shit rolls downhill! End of problem! Media campaign. Small compliance decal placed on the visitors' entrance, like the old NRA Blue Eagle during the New Deal= peer pressure!

bryanD,The problem... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:

bryanD,

The problem with holding an officer accountable for the actions of a subordinate is that it's almost impossible to prove criminal intent. Criminal intent is require is such cases because we don't lock people up for clerical errors.

The solution is simple, just fine companies like we do now for other employment violations. Offering a bounty would make it real hard for any company to get away with hiring illegals, and the fine to the employer could be based on a number of factors to insure it's high enough to motivate even Wal-Mart to stop hiring illegals.

First of all, we have reach... (Below threshold)
Radical Centrist:

First of all, we have reached this situation because
we haven't been enforcing existing laws. We already have laws against hiring illeagals, guidlines to deport illeagals and enforcement agencies. What makes anybody think that by passing new laws that say pretty much what the old ones did will do anything to solve the problem. I will tell you this,
a decision has been made by the elites at the federal state and local level to radically transform America into a northern province of Mexico. The lower half of California has for all intents a purposes an outpost for Mexican infiltration. The same goes for parts of Arizona and New Mexico. If the flow of poorly educated low skilled migrants from Mexico continues what would America look like in 10, 20 or 30 years? It will balkanize America, we have seen from the protests
that these illeagals are demanding rights that that they are not entitled to. This can only lead to further balkinazation of the US. If current trends continue the US will be a majority Mexican descendant country by 2050 what is going to happen to the US if half of its citizens can't speak english properly? These are very troubling times.

"Nativist" movements are ve... (Below threshold)
Bob:

"Nativist" movements are very popular. Not only have some enterprising politicians decided to take California back from the US and "give" it to Mexicans (fat chance), but the Akaka Bill will give Hawai'i back to the people who claim to be "Hawaiian" (also fat chance). Big trouble looming for all involved, particularly existing land-owners.

Probably the reason illegal... (Below threshold)
observer:

Probably the reason illegals don't see the need in finding common ground is that government has abided by their whims for so long. Why compromise now?

None of the plans above ... (Below threshold)
TLB:

None of the plans above would work.

And, I say that not having read most of what's above.

The problem with the plans above is the same problem with our plans now: they aren't being implemented.

You need to look a bit deeper and ask why our plans aren't being implemented, then you need to come up with a plan to deal with that.

Our laws aren't being enforced mainly because of political corruption. The plans above wouldn't be enforced because of political corruption. [1]

You need to deal with that - and make supporting illegal immigration something politicians won't dare to do - before anything will happen.

[1] Other factors play a role for some politicians of course. But campaign donations from companies that profit off illegal immigration is the biggest reason why they won't enforce the laws.

Hey Mac, I wasn't trying to... (Below threshold)

Hey Mac, I wasn't trying to beat on you - I was just amazed that I got to put my 2 cents in after 2 eloquent responses to JT's missive with no trolling in between. Kinda like what blogging can be when the trolls are on vacation or in the bathroom without a wireless. Further postings by certain others have helped dismiss that illusion, but your guys follow up great back and forth.




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