This is the last straw if this is being orchestrated by the Whitehouse? some heads are gonna roll!

This couldn't get anymore ridiculous! This is going to lead to the loss of control of Congress if the GOP doesn't step up and start changing the way we handle the Mexican Gov't and our illegal immigration issues.

How embarrassing!

This is why enforcement should be privatized as I have detailed on this blog many times. There are just too many political fingers in the pie for government to do the simple task of keeping insurgents from crossing into the U.S.

You put emphasis on the wrong line:

"They just basically endangered the lives of American people."

How dare they. I cannot put to words how enraged I am about that. Whoever is responsible in our government needs to be fired and tried for reckless endangerment. Every single person in the Border Patrol that takes part in this should be fired.

And we should stop paying the rest of them and start paying the Minutemen.

To what extent could this be law enforcement trying to keep track of three different groups of armed people? Would it help to know which way to shoot -- or not -- when the fun starts?

I'm not excusing this; I'm just pretty sure the border patrol is part of that school of law enforcement folks who feel that guns do not belong in the hands of citizens under any circumstances, and the thought of anybody else patrolling anything anywhere, with guns, would make them ill.

Apparently the guns should not be in the hands of the border patrol since they are not doing thier jobs and endangering our citizen patrol minutemen.
I second Adams views,pay the minutemen (the real americans) and fire the anti american border patrols.

Sounds awfully close to treason to me.

Some commenters here are assuming the Minutemen are armed, but there's nothing in the excerpts that says so, and my recollection is that the Minutemen's policy is no guns.

Kim, It's definite - you need to go back on the medication again.

Our US Border Patrol, following orders from the US government, is in cahoots with the Mexican government to help more illegals cross our borders.

Your tin-foil hat is slipping - hurry, adjust it before the US border patrol scans your brain and makes you think bad thoughts too....

so, just how egregiously "anti-citizen" does the government have to become before certain of our representatives and politicians realize they ARE the problem? How long does the citizenry have to tolerate this backwards-a$$ed treachery? This is so miserably pathetic. I agree with with JR's post above. How absolutely embarrassing!

my recollection is that the Minutemen's policy is no guns.

Actually, their policy is that volunteers may bring guns for their own personal protection, but not to apprehend illegal border-crossers. (I had to find a cached version since the live SOP seems to be missing on their site.)

Our President wants everyone who can get here by hook or by crook to be legalized. Most of our politicians and now our border patrol work for Mexico, and whatever they're getting for it must be under the table, because we can't see why.

I'm starting to reconsider about Hillary. What would she do, throw open the borders and shower the incoming mobs with my tax money? At least then we could blame the Democrats for it.

Normally I try to ignore Lee's posts. But this one is beyond sane.

Your tin-foil hat is slipping - hurry, adjust it before the US border patrol scans your brain and makes you think bad thoughts too....

Guns: Yes, some do carry them, if they have a permit to do so, which involves training and extensive background checks by the state govenment. I wouldn't be out there without a gun, considering the armed and dangerous-types that come across carrying drugs. But what's this talk about "vigilante" and detaining illegals? The Minutemen have a strict policy: no contact. They spot and report, they don't stop anybody. Anyone seen a report about the Minutemen "arresting" or detaining or otherwise impeding the movement of any illegal border crossers?

Who has the links to the purported Mexican Government Web sites? Simple Googling in English or Spanish didn't help.

Stuff like this makes me want to stop paying my taxes. The largest group of people ever to claim Social Security and Medicare are about to turn 65, and we've been hearing about how the strain will likely bankrupt the system. And we're going to bring illegals on board, with their entitlements to Medicaid, Public Aid, Section 8, etc.?

Are we trying to bankrupt our economy?????

Lee, I am curious. Do you in anyway sympathize with some who feel that the concern with lax enforcement of immigration laws is consistent with a broader concern for national security? Or perhaps you feel there is no rational way to reconcile these concerns.

Langtry makes a good point.

We all might consider renouncing our citizenships. Then we could all be illegal aliens and get free education, free health care and not have to pay any taxes. Doesn't making me pay for education and not making them pay for education violate some Constitutional Amendment? The one about equal protection under the law?

And would someone be kind enough to point out to me the part in the US Constitution that addresses migrants' rights?

Is it legal for employees or bureaucrats of the U.S. Government to give information to a foreign government about law-abiding U.S. citizens who are on sovereign U.S. soil?

The Minutemen haven't trespassed into Mexico or broken any international laws, so what gives the U.S. government the right to violate their privacy as U.S. citizens and put their lives in danger?

The MSM has had a cow over the NSA surveillance but this is a thousand times worse!

I can no longer tolerate this violation of our constitution and our sovereignty by our elected officials. I'm going to switch my party affiliation from Republican to the Constitution Party.

This is the straw that broke the camel's back!

This obscene policy has to end. Securing the borders and enforcing even the present immigration laws have to be most important issues this year. Any politician not committed to doing this right now ought to be voted out of office no matter what political stripe.

I dont have any party affiliation, however I will vote against any or all who are complicit in this.

I wouldn't be out there without a gun, considering the armed and dangerous-types that come across carrying drugs.

Conservative author Devvy Kidd visited the Minutemen in Arizona and said that they were armed. There are sufficient human and natural dangers in that area to warrant carrying, and you would be foolish to be out there unarmed.

This is stunning. You have an agency of the federal government of the US disclosing the location and activities of American citizens within the US and then reporting this information to a foreign power so as to circumnavigate around the MinuteMen and thwart immigration law. This policy decision has got to be reversed. Does Tnacredo know about this?

DaveD asked:

Lee, I am curious. Do you in anyway sympathize with some who feel that the concern with lax enforcement of immigration laws is consistent with a broader concern for national security? Or perhaps you feel there is no rational way to reconcile these concerns.

They're related, but not "consistent". The "Immigration Issue" concerns are, to some extent, being used as a smoke screen by racist bigots who were Bush apologists when the Katrina FEMA fiasco his New Orleans (New Orleans is a national border) but who now get up on their hind legs and scream for national security -- when the real issue "on topic" is amnesty and naturalization for undocumented workers already residing in the U.S.

I mention New Orleans and that disasterous response by the Feds because if could have been a chemical release or some other form of terrorist attack, with equally disatrous results. In the case of Katrina the Feds had several days notice - what a debacle it would have been (and still could be) if that had been a suprise terrorist attack, instead of a big hurricane forcast in advance. THAT is national security.border concern - but all we saw fofrm the right was finger pointing at every Democratic office holder in the tri-state area, not a concern over national security.

For all of their talk of "national security" and "border integrity" I find the chatter from the right about these concerns sometimes center on grinding some right-wing axe that is no longer politically correct for them to articulate openly. Conservative "Enforcement of immigration laws translates into "let's jail and deport as many non-whites as we can" when you dig a little deeper (just read the comments attached ot these posts for examples).

The recent Wizbang! suggestion to "investigate" companies which closed on May 1 is nothing more than an intimidation attempt against companies which showed some modest degree of support for the "wrong side". Is that a security concern? Nope, it's racism.

National border integrity is vitally important to the security of our nation, but all that the current debate has done is INCREASE the flow of illegals across from Mexico into the U.S. Isn't that a decrease in national security? Wasn't that predictable?

Take Kim's suggestion that the US Border Patrol is in cahoots and actively trying to "help more illegals cross our borders". What kind of paranoid insanity is that? And it is just so much "noise" when it comes to the real issue of national security.

So help me out here DaveD, what is behind this noise if not just plain old raciscm?

Hmmm.

Take Kim's suggestion that the US Border Patrol is in cahoots and actively trying to "help more illegals cross our borders". What kind of paranoid insanity is that? And it is just so much "noise" when it comes to the real issue of national security.

Amazingly enough Lee evidently has forgotten the raft of pamphlet's printed by the Mexican government on how best to "migrate" into America across the border.

He's also forgotten that official Mexican government vehicles have been used to support "migration" efforts.

And, last but not least, Lee has forgotten that the Mexican government has regularly posted notices on where the Border Patrol could be found and where the most heavily patrolled areas are.

...

So, according to Lee, when the Border Patrol gives sensitive information to the Mexican government they certainly don't try and use it to help illegals cross into America.

"The US Border Patrol is under orders to keep an eye out for the Minutemen and report their locations to the Mexican government."

Good. The Neo-Nazi side to the minutemen is indeed something to be watched carefully.

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/01/march-of-minutemen_15.html

Lee,
Well, I don't know how much help I can be here because I am conflicted on this issue myself. Although I am sure I am not racist it still bothers me that the US is considered some sort of economic oasis that appears to absolve the Mexican government with seriously creating similar economic activity/opportunity at home. I can't accept Bush's stance in Iraq as being important for our security and at the same time see what I think is his rather lazy attitude to security of domestic borders. I grew up in a rather conservative area of Pennsylvania. The large city where I grew up has a burgeoning Hispanic population and coincidentally a significant increase in crime. Now PA is not Texas/Arizona/New Mexico/Southern California but the demonstrations on TV coupled with what I just described in my home town is not making the President a popular fellow. I hear my dad talk about it. Now I can vouch without a doubt that my dad is not racist. My father does not tolerate the denigration of anyone due to race, religion or sexual orientation despite his conservative views. But the perception of domestic safety is very much a concern in this matter.

Hey its YOUR Republican Government in action.....
hold them accountable in November

vote independent

The "Immigration Issue" concerns are, to some extent, being used as a smoke screen by racist bigots

And just like that, Lee makes the rest of his point and his arguments on this issue irrelevant. To assume that those against illegal immigration are racist signifies that who have very little to back up your arguments. You would rather toss in some inflammatory accusation that essentially limits and/or ends any intellectual debate with you on this subject.

JR sez: "And just like that, Lee makes the rest of his point and his arguments on this issue irrelevant. To assume that those against illegal immigration are racist signifies that who have very little to back up your arguments."

I said sometimes, emphasis on the "sometimes", JR.

I find the chatter from the right about these concerns sometimes center on grinding some right-wing axe that is no longer politically correct for them to articulate openly.

I made the word sometimes bold in my original comment exactly for this purpose -- even though I knew it would be ignored by some bigot anxious to make a point... at least normal Americans understand that this wasn't a whitewash of all conservatives.... but you chose to ignore the emaphasis and just leapt right in without thinking...

"You would rather toss in some inflammatory accusation that essentially limits and/or ends any intellectual debate with you on this subject."

You're entitled to find an excuse to attack me and avoid the debate -- obviously. Whatever....

DaveD: wrote:

Well, I don't know how much help I can be here because I am conflicted on this issue myself. Although I am sure I am not racist it still bothers me that the US is considered some sort of economic oasis that appears to absolve the Mexican government with seriously creating similar economic activity/opportunity at home.

Washington has fostered an attitude among developing nations that has them waiting with their hand out, palm up, anytime we have a concern.

I can't accept Bush's stance in Iraq as being important for our security and at the same time see what I think is his rather lazy attitude to security of domestic borders.

I agree. Welcome to the "reality-based" club Dave. A lot of Americans feel the same way now. We've been led down the path on this issue.

My father does not tolerate the denigration of anyone due to race, religion or sexual orientation despite his conservative views. But the perception of domestic safety is very much a concern in this matter.

Your father has food reason to be concerned. The Republican concern over national security is just an excuse to push forward on their conservative agenda. The Constitution was not repealed on 9/11, but some conversatives act as if they wish it had, and are using the war on terrorism as a means to that end.

Deporting Mexican illegals who reside here in the US is not going to secure our border AT ALL. Your father's concern is valid; however lynching undocmented workers making minimum wage isn't the answer.

Lee
Your father has food reason to be concerned ? You mean as in all the food that will be lost that the illegals harvest dont you?
Deporting illegals will not secure our borders,no but it will remove a huge criminal element from our everyday lives.
Where is this "Lynching of undocumented Workers happening? facts please & specifics.

To assume that those against illegal immigration are racist signifies that who have very little to back up your arguments.

No, it's not an assumption that those against illegal immigration are racist, it is a fact that many of the Minutemen and similar spin-off groups are racist. Pretty much everyone is against illegal immigration (except in Washington), and mostly not because they are racist. But these vigilante groups are in a class by themselves.

Here's a couple of links to catch you up:
Anti-Immigration Groups Minuteman Founder Said to Tolerate Neo-Nazis in Campaign
The Simcox makeover
Beyond the Minutemen

Virgo said:

Deporting illegals will not secure our borders, no but it will remove a huge criminal element from our everyday lives.

A criminal element that's been there for decades - why the sudden rush to deport under the guise of "national security" - lol!

Raciscm rears its ugly head in surprising and not so surprising ways.

Deportation is an option both Bush and Schwarzenegger have both describe as absurd. So since parties on both sides of the issue agree that deportation isn't practical, your point is...?

The Mexican government has an official guide for its citizens who wish to cross the border illegally. Good use of color and graphics; here's the English version for gringos.

http://www.amren.com/mexguide/mexguide.html

Lee,

Charges of racism are the first refuge of liberals.

The Mexican government has an official guide for its citizens who wish to cross the border illegally. Good use of color and graphics; here's the English version for gringos.

http://www.amren.com/mexguide/mexguide.html

Lee,

Charges of racism are the first refuge of liberals.

What's disturbing about most of these comments is the high superstition to fact ratio. Do you folks really believe that Mexicans come over the border to live on welfare? That is patently false. They come to work because they have virtually no opportunities in their own country - NAFTA took care of that. Can someone please cite hard evidence regarding increased crime attributable to immigrant communities? Can someone cite credible evidence regarding the Mexican government's actively encouraging immigration to the US? You guys are going to start to choke on the steady diet of misinformation.

Please excuse my double post, I was interrupted by
an UPS delivery and lost track.

Hey smitty - would that link take me to American Renaissance by any chance? That would be, of course, the white supremacist outfit. No credibility problem with them, natch.

If the U.S. would fire all of the Mexicans who are with the Border Patrol, no one, will snitch to the Mexican government. When you hire Mexican employees, they are only faithful to the Mexican people. The minutemen are doing the job that our Federal government won't do. People of the USA wake up, these Illegal Aliens and the Mexicans presently in the USA are not here to better themselves, they are here to take over USA. Call Lou Dobbs, Larry Elder, Bill O'Reilly, Al Rantel, Sean Hannity [KABC talk radio] they will confirm the real actions of the Illegal Aliens. The Illegal Aliens HATE AMERICANS, they have told us so in their two infamous marches which I call an Illegal Alien Stand-off boycott, to show our government that they have power and won't be long before they take back their country. Call Fox 11 Los Angeles News Station, Tony Valdez newsman, he uttered on the air, that "we killed enough Mexican people and took their land". Tony Valdez of Fox 11 LA news is supposed to be an American, HELLO, deep within Tony Valdez is a Mexican and wants his Mexico to take back the USA land, otherwise, why whould this Tony Valdez utter those fateful words, on the air, the station quickly cut Valdez off, and never ever apologized for his terrorists words. The Mexicans are letting it slip little by little and our government is ignoring these terrorists threats.
USA band together and stop the illegals NOW.

Just a slightly different perspective. I'm an American living and working in Mexico LEGALLY and I see the Mexican news broadcasts. The Minutemen are ALWAYS describes as "cazadores" - hunters. How they refer to the supposed "hunted" varies but it is almost never with the word "ilegal." They save that for the Guatamalen "indocumentados."

Given this attitude (which I dont agree with), I can sort of understand Mexico's argument, even though I dont believe it is genuine... its just opportunistic -- the Mexicans can believe they are just (righteous) and just persecuted by bad white people. Makes sense politically (internally) and diplomatically, as it is quite effective with the Bush administration!

If anything is gonna start people shooting, it is this idiotic policy of the Border Patrol. Remember its not the agent on the ground that is reporting to the Mexican government, it is the administration. The Minutemen has strict guidelines on who they let in and how their members behave. Groups with far fewer scruples are now going to see the Minuteman effort as thwarted, undermined and ineffective. Then Mexico WILL have the "cazadores" they fear.

Here Here..

Actually, both parties want the border to be open for reasons that most of us have not suspected.

At the same time, inviting illegals to earn US citizenship by joining the US military and serving with a spotless record could solve MANY problems at once.

People should really be careful about whipping out the race card when you want to argue for the illegal immigrants. Espcially considering this guy http://www.davidduke.com/index.php?p=350 agrees with some of you when it comes to the wot.

Fish-
You could always check out the pamphlet in it's original form http://www.sre.gob.mx/tramites/guiamigrante/default.htm
Yeah the site he linked to might very well have racist ties (I don't know nor do I care) but hey a broken clock is right twice a day as well. (and I don't seem to see you guys getting your panties in a bunch about the racist latino groups that are associated WITH the illegals)
If you don't believe the numbers of illegals in our prisons, their kids in our schools, filling up our emergency rooms etc. YOU PROVE THAT IT'S WRONG, since I haven't seen anybody who's for illegals disputing those trends.

Imho, this is treason.

That issue aside, realize that the government has to actively undermine the effort. This is a testament to how effective sincere border patrols would be.

Wizbang. Sympathizing with the Minutemen.

These Minutemen:
""And once you shoot a couple of these son of a b@#$%es, they'll think twice."
"The lady here.. she took off like a herd of elephants."

Well, if the hood fits..

smitty :

Charges of racism are the first refuge of liberals.

The charge of liberalism is the first refuge of neoconservatives -- and that, too, proves nothing.

fishbite,

Yeah, I know about AR and its unsavory reputation
but I linked there by another blog. Does my linking prove I'm a racist too?

The point is that the guide was printed by the Mexican Government as an explicit "how to" for its citizens seeking seeking illegal entrance to the U.S.

astifaga,

The charge of "racism" is much more serious than the charge of "liberalism" (although both have
connotations of kneejerk reaction).

I still fail to see links to the purported Mexican web sites.

Smitty, that was a site I think most Wizbang readers, left or right, would not want to link with 10 layers of pseudonyms and a false ISP, though the authenticity of the document is possible.

There's no question that there are hate groups mimicking and or attempting to infiltrate the Minuteman, and mirror organizations taking similar names to the original Minuteman Project. But the original MMP and its publications haven't shown any racism that I have seen. Anyone have any links to prove otherwise?

Ooops, found yours Toddk, sorry.

Here's an interesting pamphlet that is a year old:

http://portal.sre.gob.mx/ime/pdf/IV.8_Anexo.pdf

Again, to have an honest discussion, racism should not be evoked by any person on any side. It pretty much kills the discussion.

Leigh, considering you wrote about it in the first line of your post that I referenced, I didn't read the rest of it. Your bolded sometimes didn't come until later.

I made the word sometimes bold in my original comment exactly for this purpose -- even though I knew it would be ignored by some bigot anxious to make a point

That's nice, make the assumption that I'm a bigot while trying to pretend to make a point.

I checked all of mantis's links, but fail to be convinced the "evidence" of "widespread" racism is there.

However there does appear to have been tolerance to racist members by these reports, I am not convinced by the evidence presented that it is widespread, and members displaying overt racist behavior seem to have been vetted. But I'm just going by the reports - teasing the facts out of the broad generalizations that infer more than the facts seem to support.

I am not convinced by the evidence presented that it is widespread, and members displaying overt racist behavior seem to have been vetted.

Yeah, I don't know how widespread it is either, but it does seem that these groups tend to attract some people of this persuasion.

For the record I don't really care about the Minutemen. They don't seem to be doing any harm, though I doubt they're going to have much of an impact. And even if there are racists among them, so what? Being racist isn't illegal, and as long as they aren't shooting people or breaking other laws, I have no problem with them. Wouldn't want to hang out with them....but people have a right to think whatever they want, and spend their days staring at the desert if that's their thing.

Twok-
I guess your theory is possible. But I don't think the govt. at large much less either one of the parties are that good at foresight. I'll still stick with the usual reasons for the actions of both partie's elites-short term thinking/gains (at the expense of their bases, even more with the Reps.)

REMEMBER THE ALAMO!

Hmmm.

Frankly the most absurd, and incredibly amusing, aspect of all this is the absolutely desire of the Democrats to impeach Bush on anything and everything ... EXCEPT illegal immigration.

ROFLMAO!

If the Democrats began impeachment proceedings against Bush for failing to secure the borders in a time of war, they'd actually get a number of conservatives to support them. Perhaps not in Congress where politics is king. But a lot of rank and file conservatives are pretty angry about the border situation and the issues with illegal aliens.

Frankly the only way an impeachment could actually happen is if the conservatives are on board, and yet that cannot happen because the Democrats simply cannot bring themselves to initiate impeachment proceedings based on border security.

...

So tantalizingly close, and yet so far. Almost within their grasp, and yet impossibly distant. An impeachment issue that would result in a successful impeachment, and yet one that they could never initiate.

I wonder if this scenario has confronted the Kos-Kids yet?

Excellent observation ed.

Remind me to buy stock in Zantac and Ambien, as the heartburn and sleepless nights are likely to increase...

Hmmm.

racism

Utter bullshit.

In order for any charge of racism to have any basis whatsoever then actual racism is necessary. The argument of the day isn't against Mexicans, which frankly is a *nationality* and not a *race* since there are several races within Mexico proper, but against *illegal aliens* regardless of race, color, creed, nationality or shoe size.

I frankly don't give a damn if an illegal alien pisses standing up or sitting down. Eats with chopsticks or not. Has dark skin or light. Or goes by the name Jose, Joseph, Frank or John.

I don't care who they are. Where they came from. Why they're here. What they're doing here. Where they live. Where they work. Or what they enjoy doing on weekends or whether or not they enjoy walks at sunset along a beach.

They're illegal aliens and I want them the hell out of here.

And all of this complete nonsense about "racism" is just plainly garbage being spewed by liberals who have no real plan, objection or argument. And since you don't have an argument, you pull out the charge of "racism" to cover the fact that your position is one of absolute weakness.

So if you're going to tar me with that charge of "racism" then do so directly. But trying to engage in strawman tactics by limply associating me with some third party, that you alone assert has "racist" undertones, is total bullshit.

So if you've got a direct charge to make, then have the courage to stand up and make it. If not, then shut the f**k up because you're wasting my time.

ed,

Well said (er, written).

Our government has fostered the undocumented worker "industry" for so long President Bush sought to codify a "guest worker" program.

Angst over deporting an undocumented dishwasher making minimum wage (or less, under the table) in a greasy dive in Fresno California is not about "national security" nor is it about "border integrity". Those hot buttons are being used by racists to promote rounding up them illegals and shipping them off.

Imagine the diversion of law enforcement resources it would take to round up 12 million + illegals! Federal agents pulled away fom borders and ports and airports to chase poor people through the alleys of East L.A. so we can send them back to Mexico... only to have them reappear on U.S. soil a week or two later.

The total impracticality of the suggestion shows there is emotion, not rational thought, behind the screams for action.

Sometimes that emotion is bigotry.

Lee
Why all the angst over such an obvious strawman 'argument'?

Nobody has suggested that we have to 'round up all 12 million illegals and deport them' in order to make our borders more secure and improve our immigration policy.

After we make our borders more secure, we'll start to catch the illegals in drips and drabs and deport them as we catch them. No big deal if we don't get them all.

You're reaching.

And think of the money law enforcement will save in the long run, even if we only deported 10,000 or so a year.

Hmmmm.

@ Lee

Angst over deporting an undocumented dishwasher making minimum wage (or less, under the table) in a greasy dive in Fresno California is not about "national security" nor is it about "border integrity". Those hot buttons are being used by racists to promote rounding up them illegals and shipping them off.

Here's a clue for you Lee. In order for there to be racism, there has to be a question of race. If race is irrelevant, then there is no racism.

Got that?

You must have missed that memo because you've been writing that same nonsense.

Just saw the Border Patrol chief agent for the San Diego sector on O'Reilly flatly deny that the Border patrol gives out the location of any civilians (Minutemen). What he said was that anytime they arrest an illegal, and the illegal makes a claim of mistreatment, that information is passed on to the Mexican authorities, in accordance with current treaties with Mexico.

Andrew C. McCarthy has an article on this story over at NRO: http://corner.nationalreview.com/. The DHS official that McCarthy talked to denied that any information about how the illegal was detained is given to Mexican authorities because it is law enforcement sensitive.

The Border Patrol has asked that the original story be retracted. If DHS's version is true, the right will have reacted to this the way the left reacted to the NSA story.

Since the genesis of the original story came from the head of the Border Patrol union, I wonder if there are those within the Border Patrol (like the CIA) that have their own agenda and are willing to spread a little misinformation. Time will tell what the facts are. Unfortunately, the damage is done.

i think border control should shoot anyone who comes 10ft within the border line thats not american