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Put up or shut up, Senator Kerry

(Author's note: I was initially reluctant to post this piece, slamming a veteran with a respectable war record, on Memorial Day. But Kerry himself brought up the topic on Memorial Day Weekend, so I believe it's fair game.)

Well, it's been about 18 months since the last presidential election, and finally John Kerry is fighting back against the Swift Boat Veterans For Truth, who (rightly or wrongly) are given much credit (or blame) for keeping him from becoming president. Kerry is coming out swinging, rebutting specific allegations of theirs with new evidence and new witnesses.

Senator Kerry, let me speak for a great number of people: give it up.

There are exactly two ways you can definitively settle this matter. The first is to sue the Swift Boat Veterans For Truth for slander and libel. Sure, as a public figure, the burden will be great, but if you have such conclusive evidence proving they are lying, take them to the cleaners.

There second way is even simpler: simply sign the Form 180 that releases your service record. And not the one that releases it to your pet historian and pet journalists only, but to the general public. You sought to lead the American people, and appear to be considering another run. You made your record a key element of your campaign last time. Don't we have the right to know the full details, good and bad, and judge you accordingly?

So file the suit, sign the form, or STFU, Senator Kerry. And if you do run again, kindly spend a slight fraction of your time discussing some of the more notable accomplishments of your life from the last 30 years. There's gotta be SOMETHING you've done, isn't there?

(Author's note 2: In all fairness, Kerry has one achievement as Senator that is, indeed, praiseworthy. He was essential in the Senate investigation into the Bank of Credit & Commerce International, and it always puzzled me why Kerry spent so much time talking about Viet Nam and never mentioned this feather in his cap.)


Comments (140)

He already signed that form... (Below threshold)
Heidi:

He already signed that form in 04. Get informed!!!

Oh...that's right, you'd rather continue to buy the pretence that the media and the liars gave out.

I have the answer to your p... (Below threshold)
Hershey:

I have the answer to your puzzle:

He's an idiot.

Really, Heidi? As I underst... (Below threshold)
Jay Tea:

Really, Heidi? As I understand it, he signed a very restricted version of the form, releasing the records to historian Douglas Brinkley, a Boston Globe reporter (who wrote Kerry's official campaign biography), and one reporter from the LA Times.

Of course, I'm sure you'll prove me wrong and show that Kerry released his records for any and all to see by providing a link to the complete records, because SOMEONE must have found them and put them online...

BTW, Kerry is on record as telling Tim Russert on January 30, 2005 (that's after 2004, by the way) that he WILL sign the form. By my reckoning, that means that he had NOT signed it before then. And he has yet to keep THAT promise.

(video clip: http://treyjackson.typepad.com/junction/2005/04/video_kerryyes_.html)

J.

I want to point out that yo... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

I want to point out that you have no idea if Kerry's lawyers are silently pursuing a lawsuit or not. Sometimes things don't happen on the fast track and there are numerous things that happen behind the scenes.

Next, the fact that supporters are archiving the facts and releasing them show the very foundation of a lawsuit is being built.

You can not just say, "Waaaaahhhh, they lied." without proof. Kerry and his supporters are clearly gathering that proof and preparing to nail those liars to the wall. AFTER and only after proof is gathered, and proof that will stand up in a court of law, can John Kerry sue those liars for every cent they have.

Next, are you upset about the NSA spying and the illegal wiretapping? What about those looneys who say, "If you've done nothing wrong, then you shouldn't be afraid to be wiretapped." It's an incorrect philosophy isn't it? Even if you've done nothing wrong you should NOT have to give up your privacy to people who just want to invade it. But I see you don't mind telling Kerry that he should give up his privacy because someone illegally smeared his name. It's the same thing. All of us deserve to have our private health records, private school records, and privacy in our own house and name.

Take for example a friend of mine...She has some kids in high school. We know that the NCLB is sending private academic records to the military to try to get the smarter ones to enlist or join the academy. This family can tell which student was more 'valuable' to the recruiters by the amount of military spam coming to their mail box. What right does some private recruiting firm have to any of their childrens' school records? Why should they have access? Isn't it private?

I believe your response is the same as those military recruiters who believe they should 'of course have access to any student's records they want!" And you think any media should have access to John Kerry's and all soldiers' private folders because if JK has to give his up, you've made it allowable for every US military person obligated to give up their privacy as well. Yet, in these examples not one of these people have done anything wrong that would warrent giving up their privacy.

The bigger question that should be asked isn't why JK should or shouldn't release military records when he was honorably discharged is more to the point if someone else with a drug history like George Bush comes up, should we have access to all their court records, particularly any criminal procedures or plead deals.

JK has been an honest, honorable, decent, hardworking soldier, prosecutor, Congressman, and Presidential candidate. Yet the media and the Swifties attempted to take him down. On the other hand, someone with Bush's drug and alcohol abuse and possible AWOL from the military (as well as his abominable business record was ignored and his horrible tenure as Texas governor was ignored too.)

All of THAT, my friend, is more of what you need to concern yourself with. Not whether JK sues or signs a form.

ZZ, there's actual serious ... (Below threshold)
Jay Tea:

ZZ, there's actual serious question about whether Kerry originally did receive an honorable discharge -- the facts simply don't seem to add up.

And why do you give Kerry the benefit of so much doubt, while giving Bush absolutely none? There is far more evidence (well, once you discount the flagrant forgeries) that Kerry was dishonorably discharged than Bush was ever AWOL.

But that again brings me back to my main point: besides BCCI (which I gave you), what has Kerry done since Viet Nam to earn him praise?

The rest of your rantings are simple attempts to change the subject.

Fact: Kerry promised repeatedly to make all his records public.
Fact: Kerry has yet to do so.
Fact: Kerry has based his appeal almost entirely on his Viet Nam record.
Fact: Kerry refuses to let the American people see that full record, so we can judge for ourselves.

J.

(Fixing this sentence: "Th... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

(Fixing this sentence: "The bigger question that should be asked isn't why JK should or shouldn't release military records when he was honorably discharged is more to the point if someone else with a drug history like George Bush comes up, should we have access to all their court records, particularly any criminal procedures or plead deals.")


The better question to ask is how we can demand those types of records from future candidates who have the same type of criminal & military history as GWB has. We need to clamp down on GWB-like frauds rather than pick on ones like John Kerry who are basically honorable men.


zz revolution my ass. You l... (Below threshold)
Rob in LA Ca.:

zz revolution my ass. You like the failed minority democrats are a complete lying fraud. The exact opposite of what you believe is in fact true. Why not look at what we in fact know to be true? You prefer the democrat perpetual fraud as apposed to in your face reality and truth in fact. It doesn't matter how many democrats repeat the same lie , it's still a lie . And the minority democrat party is greatest fraud known to man and becomes clearer with every day and every time a democrat opens their lying mouths. You just can't resist.

Jay Tea,There was ... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Jay Tea,

There was no rant. Furthermore, I can see by your comment that your interest is in continueing the smear instead of a real conversation about what all military soldiers deserve as well as future candidates of any party.

Frankly, this issue isn't solely about Kerry/Bush. It goes to the very heart of every person who serves and who may decide to run for public office. Should people like the Swift Boat Liars for Bush be allowed to randomly smear their opponent and should people be forced to give up their privacy in order to run for public office? Frankly, this affects both partys and lots of terrific, caring people are refusing to run because they see the invasion of privacy and the lies and swiftboating (smearing) as a problem for their own emotional well-being as well as for the well being of their family.

Next...topic changed from Kerry's alleged honorable discharged which was actually released to the press and is available on the web and is officially signed by superiors...so where's those believable discharges from Bush? We already know for a fact that the neoConservatives like Frist, Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc were too chicken to enlist when they were young men.

Rob...Wow! What a... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Rob...

Wow! What an intellegent rant. It's because of people like you that I actually turned off fox news and actually picked up newspapers and books to learn more.

ZZ, your assertion about th... (Below threshold)

ZZ, your assertion about the necessity of gathering the facts before you sue is pure nonsense. He doesn't have to "gather" the facts -- he supposedly already has them. He won't sue SBVT because that would submit HIM to the discovery process, compelling him to produce things under court order that he has so far refused to reveal. He wants to pursue this battle in the press, where he knows he will not be subjected to the same exacting standard of proof that he would be able to demand of SBVT.

And besides -- typically the statute of limitations on the tort of slander is THREE YEARS. So he's had this remedy at his disposal all this time, and he doesn't appear sanguine about using it. I wonder why.

Posted by: Rob in LA Ca.</p... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Posted by: Rob in LA Ca.

perpetual fraud....? Not by Dems!

Cunningham (Republican)
Delay (Republican)
Abramhoff (Republican)
Ney (Republican)
Noe (Republican)
Cheney (Republican)
Rove (Republican)
Novak (Republican)
Libby (Republican)
Harris (Republican)
Lay (Republican)

Just a partial list of current Republicans under prosecutorial investigation and/or indictments soon to be serving time in a stinky jail cell.

Posted by: wavemaker at May... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Posted by: wavemaker at May 29, 2006 09:07 AM

Three years? Thanks for that info. I didn't realize that. But, I can still add. This is 2006...the event happened beginning in August 2004. So that tells me he's got at least one more year to sue them.

But, the smearing still continues so is there an end in site? If not, then it sounds to me like he'd have unlimited time to take it to court. Because each time they bring a new false-charge there is another three years from which he can sue them.

Regardless...he was smeared in a public forum by the media and websites like this, so if he wants to clear his name in the same fashion, who are we to complain? It's not our name that was smeared and libelled.

wavemaker,I'm not ... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

wavemaker,

I'm not a lawyer, but you can bet your last dime on the fact that IF I were to represent you, I'd gather every last fact I could so I could present my strongest case, period!

Just because he's a public official doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to gather the strongest evidence and material to make the best case in his court of law.

"Should people like the Swi... (Below threshold)
Rob in LA Ca.:

"Should people like the Swift Boat Liars for Bush be allowed to randomly smear their opponent"

There is no answer to this false statement just like their is no answer from the democrats when they are caught lying. They run and change the subject like you have because you are a fraud and a typical democrat cry baby. You think you could walk up and down the beach and sell sand. That is how dumb or damaged your brain is.

Your sexual deviant failed disbarred and impeached ex-president was not only a cowardly admitted draft dodger , the stupid hill billy didn't even know how to smoke pot correctly but he had his fun with many a coke whore.


"Frist, Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc were too chicken to enlist when they were young men"

This is just more proof you have got your head so far up someone elses behind you don't jack sh*t.

I just want to add that if ... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

I just want to add that if you were John Kerry, you would deserve that too. All of my comments are pertaining to the individual rights that we deserve as much as a public servant like John Kerry deserves too.

We all deserve privacy, fair representation, and to be free of slander & libel. Should we chose to go to court, we deserve to have our day in court with the best evidence we can gather in the time we're allowed.

Do not put burdens on John Kerry because he's a Democrat that you would not want on yourself because in the end you end up destroying the very things you treasure.

Posted by: Rob in LA Ca. at... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Posted by: Rob in LA Ca. at May 29, 2006 09:18 AM


Excuse me Rob, but your comments are actually more harmful to the people in this site who are trying to discuss this rationally. You'd be better off signing off. You are only hurting your cause.


Rob:<a href="http:... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Rob:

Who served?

Prominent Democrats
Representative Jack Murtha (D-PA) - distinguished 37-year career in the U.S. Marine Corps, Bronze Star and two Purple Hearts, retired from the Marine Corps Reserve as a colonel in 1990. (1)
Representative Richard Gephardt, former House Minority Leader - Missouri Air National Guard, 1965-71. (1, 2)
Representative David Bonior - Staff Sgt., United States Air Force 1968-72 (1, 2)
Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle - 1st Lt., U.S. Air Force SAC 1969-72 (1, 2)
Former Vice President Al Gore - enlisted August 1969; sent to Vietnam January 1971 as an army journalist, assigned to the 20th Engineer Brigade headquartered at Bien Hoa, an airbase twenty miles northeast of Saigon. More facts about Gore's Service
Former Senator Bob Kerrey... Democrat... Lt. j.g., U.S. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam (1, 2)
Senator Daniel Inouye, US Army 1943-'47; Medal of Honor, World War Two (1, 2)
Senator John Kerry, Lt., U.S. Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V, and three awards of the Purple Heart for his service in combat (1)
Representative Charles Rangel, Staff Sgt., U.S. Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea (1, 2)
Former Senator Max Cleland, Captain, U.S. Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam (1, 2)
Senator Ted Kennedy (D-MA) - U.S. Army, 1951-1953. (1)
Senator Tom Harkin (D-IA) - Lt., U.S. Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74. (1, 2)
Senator Jack Reed (D-RI) - U.S. Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91 (1)
Senator Fritz Hollings (D-SC) - served as a U.S. Army officer in World War II, receiving the Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons. (1)


Representative Leonard Boswell (D-IA) - Lt. Col., U.S. Army 1956-76; two tours in Vietnam, two Distinguished Flying Crosses as a helicopter pilot, two Bronze Stars, and the Soldier's Medal. (1, 2)
Former Representative "Pete" Peterson, Air Force Captain, POW, Ambassador to Viet Nam, and recipient of the Purple Heart, the Silver Star and the Legion of Merit. (1, 2)
Rep. Mike Thompson, D-CA: Staff sergeant/platoon leader with the 173rd Airborne Brigade, U.S. Army; was wounded and received a Purple Heart. (1, 2)
Bill McBride, Democratic Candidate for Florida Governor - volunteered and served as a U.S. Marine in Vietnam; awarded Bronze Star with a combat "V." (1)
Gray Davis, former California Governor, Army Captain in Vietnam; received Bronze Star. (1)
Pete Stark, D-CA, served in the Air Force 1955-57
Wesley Clark, Democratic Presidential Candidate - lengthy military career.

Prominent Republicans
Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Former House Majority Leader Dick Armey - avoided the draft, did not serve.
House Majority Leader Tom Delay - avoided the draft, did not serve (1). "So many minority youths had volunteered ... that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like himself."
House Majority Whip Roy Blunt - did not serve
Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist - did not serve. (An impressive medical resume, but not such a friend to cats in Boston.)
Majority Whip Mitch McConnell, R-KY - did not serve (1)
Rick Santorum, R-PA, third ranking Republican in the Senate - did not serve. (1)
Former Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott - avoided the draft, did not serve.


Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld - served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as an aviator and flight instructor. (1) Served as President Reagan's Special Envoy to the Middle East and met with Saddam Hussein twice in 1983 and 1984.
GW Bush - decided that a six-year Nat'l Guard commitment really means four years. Still says that he's "been to war." Huh?
VP Cheney - several deferments (1, 2), the last by marriage (in his own words, "had other priorities than military service") (1)
Former Att'y Gen. John Ashcroft - did not serve (1, 2); received seven deferment to teach business ed at SW Missouri State

Jeb Bush, Florida Governor - did not serve. (1)

Karl Rove - avoided the draft, did not serve (1), too busy being a Republican.

Former Speaker Newt Gingrich - avoided the draft, did not serve (1, 2)
Former President Ronald Reagan - due to poor eyesight, served in a noncombat role making movies for the Army in southern California during WWII. He later seems to have confused his role as an actor playing a tail gunner with the real thing.
"B-1" Bob Dornan - avoided Korean War combat duty by enrolling in college acting classes (Orange County Weekly article). Enlisted only after the fighting was over in Korea.
Phil Gramm - avoided the draft, did not serve, four (?) student deferments
Senator John McCain - McCain's naval honors include the Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross. Why did the Bush campaign smear him so? At least Senators Cleland (D-GA), Kerry (D-MA), Kerrey (D-NE), Robb (D-VA) and Hagel (R-NE) defended him.
Former Senator Bob Dole - an honorable man. http://www.bobdole.org/bio/wwII.php
Chuck Hagel - two Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star, Vietnam. http://www.senate.gov/~hagel/Information/bio.htm
Duke Cunningham - nominated for the Medal of Honor, received the Navy Cross, two Silver Stars, fifteen Air Medals, the Purple Heart, and several other decorations Recently entered plea bargain on felony charges of bribery, etc. etc.
Senator Jeff Sessions U.S. Army Reserves, 1973-1986
Colin Powell. What are we to make of Powell? On the one hand, a long career as a military manager. On the other hand, accused of covering up the My Lai massacre. Back on that first hand, one of the seemingly sane voices in this administration when it comes to Iraq (or at least he used to be). On the other hand, a clear hypocrite ("I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...")
Representative Wayne Gilchrest (R-MD), served in USMC in Vietnam; wounded in action.

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Back to AWOLBush.com home page Tell some friends about this page!

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Here are a few more...

Democrats
Chuck Robb, US Senator from Virginia, served in Vietnam
Howell Heflin... Democrat... Silver Star
George McGovern, famous liberal, awarded Silver Star & DFC, dozens of missions during WWII.
Former President Bill Clinton - avoided the draft through student deferments; in the autumn of 1969, Clinton entered the draft but received a high number (311) and was never called to serve. (CNN article.) "...it was his doubts about the morality of the war and the Selective Service system that led him to abandon the ROTC idea and to subject himself to a draft lottery. Only the luck of the draw - a high lottery number - kept him out. " (Jeff Greenfield, ABC News, quoting Gov. Clinton.)
Former President Jimmy Carter, most recent recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize, seven years in the Navy. "Except for his fellow service-academy graduate Dwight Eisenhower, no President of the twentieth century spent more years in uniform than Carter." (New Yorker Magazine)
Former Vice President Walter Mondale, U.S. Army 1951-1953
Former Senator John Glenn, D-OH (1974-1999) - Served in WWII and Korea; extensive military commendations include the Distinguished Flying Cross on six occasions, and the Air Medal with 18 Clusters.
Congressman Tom Lantos, D-CA - Did not serve in the US military; did serve in the Hungarian anti-Nazi underground in WWII. Saved by Raoul Wallenberg, is the only Holocaust survivor to serve in Congress.
Republicans/Conservatives
Political
Senator Richard Shelby, did not serve (1)
Senator Jon Kyl, R-AZ - did not serve (1, 2)
Senator John Cornyn, R-TX - did not serve. (1)
Senator Tim Hutchison, R-AR - did not serve (1, 2)
Rep. Christopher Cox, R-CA, (formerly) fifth-ranking Republican in the House - did not serve. (1)
Rep. John T. Doolittle, R-CA, sixth-ranking Republican in the House - did not serve.
Representative Saxby Chambliss, Georgia - did not serve (1, 2), had a "bad knee" (yet somehow feels he has a right to attack Max Cleland's patriotism)
Former Representative JC Watts - did not serve (1, 2)
Jack Kemp, did not serve (1, 2) (was unfit because of a knee injury, though he heroically continued as a National Football League quarterback for another eight years - source)
Former Vice President Dan Quayle, avoided Vietnam service, got a slot in the journalism unit of the Indiana National Guard when the unit was at 150% capacity (at least he showed up for his duty, unlike GW) (1, 2)
Eliot Abrams, did not serve (1, 2) (however, played a key role in subverting democracy in South America)
Paul Wolfowitz, did not serve (1, 2)
Former Representative Vin Weber, did not serve (1, 2)
Richard Perle, did not serve (1, 2) (is the current bloodshed in the Middle East a direct result of his treasonous meddling in Clinton Administrstion foreign policy?)
Douglas Feith, Undersecretary of Defense for Policy - did not serve. (1)
Rudy Giuliani, did not serve (1, 2)
Michael Bloomberg, did not serve (1, 2)
George Pataki, did not serve (1, 2)
Spencer Abraham, did not serve
John Engler, did not serve (1, 2)
Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC) - website used to claim service as a "Operation Desert Shield and Desert Storm veteran." A current biographical website makes no such claim. In reality, was a National Guard lawyer who never left South Carolina during the Gulf War.
Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, R-CA, did not serve (1)
Rep. Darrell Issa, R-CA/49th, there were some problems with his service.
Rep. John M. McHugh, R-NY - avoided the draft, did not serve (1)
Rep. Todd Platts, R-PA - did not serve (1)
Arnold Schwarzenegger, CA Republican Governor - went AWOL from his Austrian army base to enter a bodybuilding competition
George Herbert Walker Bush, pilot in WWII. Awarded Navy Cross. Shot down by the Japanese; was lone survivor out of airplane (link).
Representative Sam R. Johnson, combat missions in both Korea and Vietnam, POW in Hanoi from April 1966 to February 1973 (1)
(don't ever run for president Sam, they'll spread rumors that you're crazy)
Senator Ted Stevens, R-AK, WW II pilot, two Distinguished Flying Crosses, two Air Medals, and the Yuan Hai medal awarded by the Republic of China.
Sen. John Warner, R-VA - Served in the Navy 1945-1946 as a RM3; reenlisted in the USMC 1950, 10 years service in Marine Corps Reserve, retired as Captain.
Congresswoman Heather Wilson, R-NM, served in the Air Force 1978-1989
Former President Gerald Ford, served in the Navy, WWII
Former Senator Strom Thurmond - apparently believes, along with Trent Lott, that America should have been a segregated society. Still, he served.

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Fighting Democrats

Back from the front lines, and headed for Congress in 2006. Why are almost all the veterans coming home from Iraq running as Democrats?

Paul Hackett - U.S. Senate - Ohio
Website: www.hackettforohio.com
Charles Brown - California 4th District - 26-year career in USAF; jet and helicopter pilot; recently retired as Lt. Colonel
Website: http://www.charliebrownforcongress.org
Patrick Murphy - Pennsylvania's 8th Congressional District
Website: www.murphy06.com
Bryan Lentz - Pennslyvania's 7th Congressional District
Website: www.lentzforcongress.com
David Harris - Texas 6th Congressional District
Website: http://followmetodc.com/
David Ashe - Virginia's 2nd Congressional District
Website: http://www.davidasheforcongress.com/
Andrew Duck - Maryland 6th Congressional District
Website at http://duckforcongress.org
Eric Massa - New York's 29th District
Website: www.massaforcongress.com
Tim Dunn - North Carolina's 8th Congressional District
Website: www.dunnforcongress.com
Check out the Band of Brothers 2006, as well their candidates page, for a good list of veterans running for Congress in 2006, such as:

Karen Marie Otter, US Army 1983-1985, California's 52nd District
www.otterforcongress.com
Phil Avillo, lengthy career as a US Marine, Pennsylvania's 19th District
www.avilloforcongress.com

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Punditocracy and Preacher-types (See also Media Whores Online)
George Will, did not serve
Chris Matthews, Mediawhore, did not serve.
Bill O'Reilly, did not serve
Paul Gigot, did not serve.
Bill Bennett, Did not serve
Pat Buchanan, did not serve
Rush Limbaugh, did not serve (4-F with a 'pilonidal cyst' [see "The Rush Limbaugh Story" by Paul D. Colford, St. Martin's Press, 1993, Chapter 2: Beating the Draft.])
Michael Savage (aka Michael Alan Weiner) - did not serve, too busy chasing herbs and botany degrees in Hawaii and Fiji
John Wayne, did not serve
Pat Robertson - claimed during 1986 campaign to be a "combat veteran." In reality, was a "Liquor Officer."
Bill Kristol, did not serve
Sean Hannity, did not serve.
Kenneth Starr, did not serve
Antonin Scalia, did not serve
Clarence Thomas, did not serve
Ralph Reed, did not serve
Michael Medved, did not serve
Charlie Daniels, did not serve
Ted Nugent, did not serve
Country Singer Toby Keith, did not serve. (1)
Radio Host Phil Hendrie, did not serve.
Ollie North - Convicted in the Iran-Contra scandal, at least he served.
Charlton Heston - served in WWII, but went AWOL when Michael Moore asked him some tough questions.
James Carville, a.k.a. "Corporal Cueball" - Served in the United States Marine Corps, 1966-'68. (1)
Markos Moulitsas, a.k.a. "Kos" (leading liberal blogger) - Served in the United States Army, 1989-'92. (1)
Independents
Gov. Jesse Ventura, U.S. Navy SEAL training, did UDT work
Senator Jim Jeffords, U.S. Navy 1956-1959

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And let's not forget the Coast Guard...

The brave men and women of the United States Coast Guard risk their lives every day to protect our nation and save thousands of lives every year. The Coast Guard is in fact a branch of the United States Armed Forces.

Congressman Gene Taylor (D-MI) served in the U.S. Coast Guard Reserve from 1971-1984. http://www.house.gov/genetaylor/biography.htm
Congressman Howard Coble (R-NC) served in the U.S. Coast Guard (Active Duty)for 5.5 years. Served in the CG Reserve for 18 years. http://coble.house.gov/biography/
William Delahunt (D-MA) served in the U.S. Coast Guard Reserve from 1963-1971 http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/history/faqs/William_Delahunt.html

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About the National Guard Today
Dear Friends:

Having been a reservist and now in a state defense force serving with Guard in my state, I wanted to ask you to clarify for the masses the HUGE difference between the National Guard during the Vietnam War and today. After the establishment of the All Volunteer Force in 1976, the reserves and Guard became a major source for deployment. More than 40 % of the Army's combat arms units are NG. In fact, a big chunk of the folks who have served in Bosnia/Kosovo are reserve and Guard. The same is true of deployments to the Gulf in recent times.

The Guard and Reserve are no longer a haven for those who wish to dodge hazardous service. Hope you can make that clear to folks who might not otherwise understand and respect the volunteers in the reserve services today. It might be interesting to how many of the sons and daughters of politicians are serving in ANY capacity. Ahem. CPT B

Couldn't have said it any better...

List of Present (108th) Senators Who Have Served

The New Hampshire Gazette's Chickenhawk database

Complete list - members of the 106th Congress with Military Service. Why is the Republican leadership so top-heavy with Chickenhawks??

In response to NewsMax's "Deck of Weasels"...check out the Deck of Republican Chickenhawks!


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Got other names to submit? Please let us know about heroes or chickenhawks, on either side of the aisle. (Hey, do your homework and include a link with any name you send us, OK?)

Re military personnel and public perception of Democrats v. Republicans in general.

How often must Democrats defend their party against the typical freeper blather of draft-dodging, service-evading, unpatriotic cowards among us? More often than we have to.

Gore was right all along. About some things. The "truth" IS on our side.

Or, as www.rackjite.com puts it:

THE CHICKENHAWKS "Conservatives make great fun of President Clinton for questioning the Vietnam War, standing up to his beliefs and questioning his own participation in that war as well, i.e., being honest and walking the walk of his own belief system [and then giving up his student deferment to subject himself to the draft!]. On the other hand there were literally millions of dishonest hypocritical, cowardly right-wing loonies who supported the war while refusing to personally participate."

<a href="http://www.awolbus... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Who served?


Prominent Republicans
Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Former House Majority Leader Dick Armey - avoided the draft, did not serve.
House Majority Leader Tom Delay - avoided the draft, did not serve (1). "So many minority youths had volunteered ... that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like himself."
House Majority Whip Roy Blunt - did not serve
Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist - did not serve. (An impressive medical resume, but not such a friend to cats in Boston.)
Majority Whip Mitch McConnell, R-KY - did not serve (1)
Rick Santorum, R-PA, third ranking Republican in the Senate - did not serve. (1)
Former Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott - avoided the draft, did not serve.


Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld - served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as an aviator and flight instructor. (1) Served as President Reagan's Special Envoy to the Middle East and met with Saddam Hussein twice in 1983 and 1984.
GW Bush - decided that a six-year Nat'l Guard commitment really means four years. Still says that he's "been to war." Huh?
VP Cheney - several deferments (1, 2), the last by marriage (in his own words, "had other priorities than military service") (1)
Former Att'y Gen. John Ashcroft - did not serve (1, 2); received seven deferment to teach business ed at SW Missouri State

Jeb Bush, Florida Governor - did not serve. (1)

Karl Rove - avoided the draft, did not serve (1), too busy being a Republican.

Former Speaker Newt Gingrich - avoided the draft, did not serve (1, 2)
Former President Ronald Reagan - due to poor eyesight, served in a noncombat role making movies for the Army in southern California during WWII. He later seems to have confused his role as an actor playing a tail gunner with the real thing.
"B-1" Bob Dornan - avoided Korean War combat duty by enrolling in college acting classes (Orange County Weekly article). Enlisted only after the fighting was over in Korea.
Phil Gramm - avoided the draft, did not serve, four (?) student deferments
Senator John McCain - McCain's naval honors include the Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross. Why did the Bush campaign smear him so? At least Senators Cleland (D-GA), Kerry (D-MA), Kerrey (D-NE), Robb (D-VA) and Hagel (R-NE) defended him.
Former Senator Bob Dole - an honorable man. http://www.bobdole.org/bio/wwII.php
Chuck Hagel - two Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star, Vietnam. http://www.senate.gov/~hagel/Information/bio.htm
Duke Cunningham - nominated for the Medal of Honor, received the Navy Cross, two Silver Stars, fifteen Air Medals, the Purple Heart, and several other decorations Recently entered plea bargain on felony charges of bribery, etc. etc.
Senator Jeff Sessions U.S. Army Reserves, 1973-1986
Colin Powell. What are we to make of Powell? On the one hand, a long career as a military manager. On the other hand, accused of covering up the My Lai massacre. Back on that first hand, one of the seemingly sane voices in this administration when it comes to Iraq (or at least he used to be). On the other hand, a clear hypocrite ("I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...")
Representative Wayne Gilchrest (R-MD), served in USMC in Vietnam; wounded in action.


CONTACT: Charlie Gerow<br /... (Below threshold)
*:

CONTACT: Charlie Gerow
Quantum Communications
717-213-4955

VIETNAM VETERANS REACT TO JOHN KERRY LEGAL DEFENSE FUND

WASHINGTON,D.C., March 27, 2005 -- "Vietnam veterans will not be intimidated by the likes of John Kerry," retired Air Force Col. George "Bud" Day said today, responding to news the Massachusetts Senator had created a legal defense trust fund to pay his on-going court battles against a group of highly decorated Vietnam veterans. "No matter how much money Kerry raises he can't buy his way out or hide his disgraceful betrayal of those brave veterans who gave their all in the service of America."
Col. Day added: "I'm sure he (Sen. Kerry) has many rich, veteran-hating friends. Maybe Hanoi Jane (Fonda) will pick up his legal bills. But, he's not exactly penniless. Why one of the wealthiest men in the Senate would expect others to pay his lawyers and use questionable Senate privileges against veterans he's wronged is shameful. Like everything about this character, it's phony, deceitful, and a sham."

Col. Day is the Chairman of the Vietnam Veterans Legacy Foundation (VVLF), a group of Vietnam combat veterans, primarily former POWs, who sued Sen. Kerry last year for "conspiracy and defamation" in Philadelphia Federal Court. Col. Day is the most decorated Air Force veteran alive, a Medal of Honor recipient, a veteran of three wars and a former POW held captive by Vietnamese Communists for over five years.

Sen. Kerry recently filed formal papers with the U.S. Senate creating a "legal expense trust fund" specifically to handle costs associated with his defense of a lawsuit brought by the POWs and other Vietnam veterans. Ironically, the account is named "Fund for Truth and Honor."

"That's his way of mocking us and all Vietnam veterans," Col. Day remarked. "The concepts of truth and honor are utterly foreign to him. He's forced to plagiarize our words."

The veteran's lawsuit against Sen. Kerry stems from his failed 2004 presidential bid when the Kerry/Edwards campaign tried to prevent a documentary about Kerry's 1971 anti-war activities, including his collaboration with the Vietnamese Communists, from being broadcast or even shown in theaters.

That film, "Stolen Honor: Wounds that Never Heal," included interviews with Col. Day and several other Vietnam POWs held in the notorious Hanoi Hilton prison camp in 1971. That is when then Lt. Kerry publicly denounced Vietnam veterans as "war criminals" before the U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Those accusations, the POWs said, were not only false but threatened their survival and lengthened their captivity in the hands of the Communists who had already beaten, tortured and even murdered many American POWs.

Shortly after the documentary's release in September 2004, Kerry campaign aides sued the producer of "Stolen Honor," Carlton Sherwood, a Pulitzer Prize and Peabody Award-winning journalist and a thrice-wounded, decorated, Marine Vietnam veteran. The Kerry/Edwards campaign followed the lawsuits with an all-out assault on the Sinclair Broadcasting Company which had announced plans to air the documentary. Sinclair quickly became the target of Kerry campaign-inspired ad boycotts, stockholder's rebellions and calls for FCC and FEC investigations by Kerry and 18 other liberal Democrat Senators. Under mounting political and financial pressures, Sinclair eventually dropped it's planned airing.

In August, 2005 another Kerry campaign supporter filed a similar lawsuit against Carlton Sherwood, Producer of "Stolen Honor". At that same time, the VVLF POWs and one of their wives were also sued by the two Kerry campaign workers. Both lawsuits claim that Sherwood and the POWs "libeled" Kerry and other unnamed Vietnam veterans by questioning whether they witnessed or participated in "war crimes and atrocities" in Vietnam.

In response to the new lawsuits, the VVLF POWs and Sherwood filed a "conspiracy defamation" lawsuit against Sen. Kerry and one of his top campaign aides, Anthony Podesta, last October. That suit charges Kerry and his campaign with scheming to censor "Stolen Honor," attempting to cover up and prevent the American public from hearing Kerry's true anti-war history and the consequences his actions had on POWs and other Vietnam veterans.

"We could not stand by while John Kerry used his underlings to sue us into silence," Col Day explained. "We could not allow this man to keep his hands clean while his surrogates did the dirty work for him, suing me and my fellow POWs and even their wives, because we dared speak the truth about him."

Col. Day continued, "We didn't ask for this fight any more than we wanted to be drawn into the 2004 presidential election. John Kerry brought it on himself then, and, now, he forces us to fight back again. Our (the VVLF's) sole mission is to set the record straight about Vietnam, factually, and to preserve the honor and integrity of those who served there. Kerry's life-long goal has been to belittle and disgrace the sacrifices of Vietnam veterans and, now, he's at it again, calling our men and women in uniform 'terrorists'."

"It's time he is held accountable for his smears. It's time he is forced to stand in the dock and made to face those who he has accused, falsely, of the most vile acts. It's time America sees this little man for who he really is, and the great harm he has done to so many brave soldiers."

"We look forward to the day when we can finally put an end to John Kerry's four decade war on veterans."

For more information on Col. Day, the VVLF and the Kerry lawsuits, please go to www.vvlf.org.

http://www.vvlf.org/default.php?page_id=49

-

"The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but the newspapers." - Thomas Jefferson


RECORDS SET... (Below threshold)
Rob in LA Ca.:

RECORDS SET

- The only president ever impeached on grounds of personal malfeasance
- Most number of convictions and guilty pleas by friends and associates*
- Most number of cabinet officials to come under criminal investigation
- Most number of witnesses to flee country or refuse to testify
- Most number of witnesses to die suddenly
- First president sued for sexual harassment.
- First president accused of rape.
- First first lady to come under criminal investigation
- Largest criminal plea agreement in an illegal campaign contribution case
- First president to establish a legal defense fund.
- First president to be held in contempt of court
- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions
- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions from abroad
- First president disbarred from the US Supreme Court and a state court Here's what happened to the Democrats under Clinton, based on our latest figures:

- GOP seats gained in House since Clinton became president: 48
- GOP seats gained in Senate since Clinton became president: 8
- GOP governorships gained since Clinton became president: 11
- GOP state legislative seats gained since Clinton became president: 1,254
as of 1998
- State legislatures taken over by GOP since Clinton became president: 9
- Democrat officeholders who have become Republicans since Clinton became
president: 439 as of 1998
- Republican officeholders who have become Democrats since Clinton became president: 3

NATIONAL CONF OF STATE LEGISLATURES
http://www.ncsl.org/programs/legman/elect/hstptyct.htm
http://www.ncsl.org/programs/legman/elect/demshare2000.htm


This all by one miserable individual not to mention all the current democrat corruption.

Your such a pathetic fraud all I can do is laugh at your partial wish list. You wish so bad that the repubicans could in million years even be remotely corrupt as your criminal democrat party. Who are you trying to convince? I am a registered voting straight democrat of over 15 years but that all ended Nov.2 2004. and none of your lies are ever going to change the thousands of hours of research I have since put in to make myself aware of the facts. No one has ever said to me "vote Republican", that is a decision I made entirely on my own.

R.R. at 3DHS linked with "K... (Below threshold)
R.R.:

R.R. at 3DHS linked with "Kerry should sign Form 180, sue the swift vets, or STFU" http://www.debategate.com/forums/PIC/posts/336689.html

Ha HA, I am hurting my ca... (Below threshold)
Rob in LA Ca.:

Ha HA, I am hurting my case because I'm not making one. It's your feelings that are getting hurt and your case being proven for what it and you are , a complete fraud. Why would so arrogantly assume that I'm cusing others harm when it's is only you that are incapable of dealing with reality and you think your going to get me to sign off? Ya right , it is just like your incompetant party its braindead supporters to try and silence those who speek the truth and expose them and are brutally honest when they do it.

You must be the newest paid peon in the democrats "SAY ANYTHING" and "DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO REGAIN POWER" last chance campaigne to keep up your failing perpetual fraud. Guess what? Your failing BIG TIME!

Posted by: Rob in LA Ca. at... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Posted by: Rob in LA Ca. at May 29, 2006 09:46 AM


The only list you didn't post was first White House Cheif of Staff, assistant to the Vice Prsident, and Assistant to the President under formal indictment.

USA v Scooter Libby

Other things you didn't list:

The ongoing investigation into the Treason that happened in the George Bush and Dick Cheney White House.

Rove
Libby
Cheney
Bush

All under investigation.

Sorry...treason overrides seman on a blue dress.

P.S. Jay Tea...how come RR's links are up there but mine with actual facts have disappeared?

Posted by: Rob in LA Ca. at... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Posted by: Rob in LA Ca. at May 29, 2006 10:01 AM

Thanks Rob for all these rational thoughts you are posting. I'm sure all of your 'teammates' will be proud to have me share them with all the undecided voters out here.

Think about whose cause you're hurting with all your hate-filled name calling. And don't sign off. I was trying to help you and this site sound more reasonable but if you like to sound like that and you feel proud of your responses, then I'm happy to share them with people who wonder what your party has to offer.

You petulant little bed w... (Below threshold)
Rob in LA Ca.:

You petulant little bed wettter, show some facts links proof of Treason you dumbass. Treason is a democrat way of life because they are traitors , liars and Un-American just like you. Thank you for proving that fact like your voting fraud , early and often .

Kerry is a self-admitted wa... (Below threshold)
Vero:

Kerry is a self-admitted war criminal who has as much chance of being President as Ted murderer Kennedy or KKK Byrd does.

Rob, I hate to agree with t... (Below threshold)
Jay Tea:

Rob, I hate to agree with the others, but you're really, REALLY not helping the case here. Clinton is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

I repeat my four facts:

Fact: Kerry promised repeatedly to make all his records public.
Fact: Kerry has yet to do so.
Fact: Kerry has based his appeal almost entirely on his Viet Nam record.
Fact: Kerry refuses to let the American people see that full record, so we can judge for ourselves.

And ZZ, your postings with links were held up by the spam filters. I'm approving ONE of them now -- the other two will be deleted as superfluous.

ZZ, Rob, this is NOT about Bush, and it is NOT about Clinton. It's about Kerry, his promises, his statements on his record, and his refusal to let anyone see for themselves what it holds. Period.

J.

zz revolution:<block... (Below threshold)
Truzenzuzex:

zz revolution:

Next, are you upset about the NSA spying and the illegal wiretapping?

For the life of me, I cannot see how this is relevant to the alleged problems with Kerry's military service. Why can't you stick to the subject? It seems to be written into the DNA of every lefty to introduce irrelevencies into their tirades.

The bigger question that should be asked isn't why JK should or shouldn't release military records when he was honorably discharged is more to the point if someone else with a drug history like George Bush comes up, should we have access to all their court records, particularly any criminal procedures or plead deals.

You corrected the whole "drug history" thing later (in this paragraph, at least) so I won't comment on it here. What I will comment on is this: Kerry promised to release his records, or at least appeared to. Could he weasel his way out of it by saying "I did what I said I would do?" Sure. But it looks for all the world like he is hiding something.

If this thing every actually goes to court, Kerry most likely will have to release all his records, as they are Exhibit A in a presumptive defendant's rebuttal case.

JK has been an honest, honorable, decent, hardworking soldier, prosecutor, Congressman, and Presidential candidate. Yet the media and the Swifties attempted to take him down.
That is your opinion of him, and you are certainly entitled to it. You seem, however, to ignore the facts that paint Kerry in a less favorable light (i.e. the "Christmas in Cambodia" thing). Then you accuse those who raise these points and question Kerry's heroism, honesty, and honor. There are good and sufficient reasons to do so.

Kerry has within his power the ability to substantially vindicate himself and silence his critics, yet he has declined to do so. That's his right, but with so many good questions lacking an answer, your attack on Kerry's detractors seems like nothing more than shrill partisanship.

On the other hand, someone with Bush's drug and alcohol abuse and possible AWOL from the military (as well as his abominable business record was ignored and his horrible tenure as Texas governor was ignored too.)

That is a smear, and you perfectly well know it. Unlike many of Kerry's alleged indiscretions, there is no proof that Bush ever abused drugs, the "AWOL" thing was utterly debunked, and his tenure as Texas governor was "horrible" only to left-wing moonbats.

Posted by: Rob in LA Ca. at... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Posted by: Rob in LA Ca. at May 29, 2006 10:13 AM

24% believe Bush tells the truth
76% believe Bush is a liar

65% Clinton's approval rating despite being impeached.

29% Bush approval rating


Links to treason? Sure. Do a simple google search rob and you'll find thousands of links to the Espianage Act, FISA laws, Illegal wiretaps, COverups, Torture.

Furthermore, the highest and most reputable sources who are already deeply involved in the cosnequences of the illegal and partison leaking of Valerie Plames name called it TREASON. I've already spoken to CIA agents who said that outing Valerie Plame who was a covert agent caused immense harm to their investigations and still do to this day.

Posted by: Truzenzuzex at M... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Posted by: Truzenzuzex at May 29, 2006 10:22 AM

Actually, the information about George Bush is part of court records, including records that he was given community service.

Posted by: Jay Tea at May 2... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Posted by: Jay Tea at May 29, 2006 10:19 AM

Thank you. The other two were superfluous as I attempted to shorten them since I thought that might be why they were held up.

Revoution - none of those "... (Below threshold)
Michael:

Revoution - none of those "treasonous acts" you cite are being
investigated except for the silly Palme case and that is only for perjury. No wonder your side keeps losing.

You have got to be the ... (Below threshold)
Rob in LA Ca.:

You have got to be the worst I seen in a long time.

Signing off ? I never sign on you nincumpoop.

Hate filled name calling? I am laughing my ass off at your failed attempt to use psycology for your failed attempt to silence me and most I'm sure are getting a kick out of this back and forth and are laughing too. Your pathetic attempt to instill fear as if your the leader of huge group of wacked out base heads waiting for you to command them. I'm rolling again , your too funny.

Everyone knows what (oh it's my party now) the Republicans stand for beside I believe their is a libertarian around here somewhere. What everyone seems to want to know is about what the Dems stand for besides the obvious or what they will deny they are for.

Jay Tea,Hey, sorry... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Jay Tea,

Hey, sorry to desert the conversation. Especially since I'm the only one here presenting the other side, but I have to leave. A friend and I are going to the local cemetaries and replacing the American flags for new ones.

We do this every Memorial Day.

Peace, dude!

Somebody needs to start his... (Below threshold)

Somebody needs to start his own blog.

"24% believe Bush te... (Below threshold)
Rob in LA Ca.:


"24% believe Bush tells the truth
76% believe Bush is a liar

65% Clinton's approval rating despite being impeached.

29% Bush approval rating"

Thank you for proving the perpetual fraud for me . You believe in the tooth fairy. I care only about the truth , the whole truth and nothing but the truth, facts . Not a bunch of bogus polls taken by a bunch of biased lying frauds.

Your three ring circus of perpetual fraud , the democrat party , their extended wing aka the MSM LSM , antique media , drive by media or training wheel media and their most irrational know nothings lunatics airheads in liberal Hollywood have decieved to people long enough and can no longer fool the masses any more. Or maybe you haven't noticed your in the "COMPLETE MINORITY" WHERE YOU BELONG UNTIL YOUR CRIMINAL ANTI-AMERICAN SOCIAL COMMUNIST PARTY CAN BE REPLACED BY HONEST AMERICANS OR ANOTHER POLITICAL PARTY ALL TOGETHER.


"Somebody needs to start hi... (Below threshold)
Vero:

"Somebody needs to start his own blog."

You mean like KOS, where they allow conservative/moderate views? Yeah Liberals just loveeeeeeeeeeeee talking about free speech but actually practicing it? Right.

Kerry is totally despised by my family, as we lost a family member in Vietnam. Kerry was the one person that got us together here in Ohio to make sure he did not become President.

Mission accomplished!

Hmmmm.Som... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

Somebody needs to start his own blog.

Someone needs to start using links instead of clogging up this discussion with irrelevant bullshit.

zz revolution: We are already aware of all this idiot crap. We've had endless parades of liberals coming here and posting the same damn things. Over. And over. And over. And over.

Either post something new or original, or simply stop posting anything at all. As long as you do nothing but regurgitate the contents of liberal websites you'll find that there's nobody interested in what you post.

Why we have to go through this same nonsense with every new liberal to "discover" this blog is frankly beyond me.

For the record: The swiftbo... (Below threshold)

For the record: The swiftboat issue was not why Kerry lost the election. Him being a larger wanker than bush: THAT is what cost him the election.

besides, we all know Dick cheney inserted cyberdine viruses into diebold machines so he can rig the results.

I still remember well JF Ke... (Below threshold)
wilky:

I still remember well JF Kerrys acceptence speech at the Democrat National Convention. There was a part where he said that one of the things he learned on the river was to turn the boat directly into the attack when taking fire. Yet when the SBVT went after him he wilted like a thirstly flower in the wiltering sun. A case of saying one thing and doing another.

And ZZ, to bad you left because I would like you to answer a question for me. If this is true, All of us deserve to have our private health records, private school records, and privacy in our own house and name, why don't you include private financial records? Or is it because those records you site don't help you pick me clean, like a thief in the night?

Jay Tea,Your writi... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Jay Tea,

Your writing and presentation had me hoping that you were a moderate and possibly reasonable site. And having returned from the cemetary I discover these pathetic responses, I'm sorry that your bloggers chose to engage in hate-speach instead of presenting actual facts. Because no matter how many people post the same facts, they are indeed facts.


Now you get my rant, Jay Tea!

When I left, I said, "Peace, Dude" for a reason. Clearly I assumed you and your bloggers might be wiling to forgo the childish namecalling and instead have a real conversation on this. Listen, when I went and exchanged flags on the Veteran's plots, I didnt look for an "R" or a "D" or a Cross or a star. I did this because no matter what we all need to appreciate those who served and learn to live together in peace, so that those who died serving this country don't die in vain.

Crappy responses like Ed and Rob aren't worth my time of day.

Posted by: ed at May 29, 2006 11:34 AM
Posted by: Rob in LA Ca. at May 29, 2006 10:52 AM

Ed and Rob:

And on that note... We can see why there is no rational discussion on Republican blogs and why they continue with the same old lies and the public servants who have an "R" following their name serve with an amazing display of incompetence and show absolutely no learning curve.

Ed and Rob, Keep singing to the choir without rational thought or facts.

Here's a link to further noneducate you:
http://www.foxnews.com/national/index.html

Posted by: Vero at May 29, 2006 10:55 AM

Vero,

Sorry about the family member who died in Vietnam. Sorry, it wasn't kerry's fault. It was Nixon's and you know it. Because Nixon did the same damn thing that George Bush has done.


Kerry was merely their scapegoat. Someone for you to hate. But the people who start the war, maintain the war, and send people to die are the ones who must be blamed!

Posted by: wilky at May 29,... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Posted by: wilky at May 29, 2006 11:50 AM

I would add those to the list. I simply was listing things off the top of my head.

So just consider that added.

Wow, a thread hijacking. L... (Below threshold)
La Mano:

Wow, a thread hijacking. Looks more like the cut & paste drivel you see on a Yahoo message board.

ZZ, don't hurry back.

Kerry has about as much cha... (Below threshold)
virgo:

Kerry has about as much chance in becoming President as He does in proving He was ever in Cambodia!

It was Nixon's and... (Below threshold)
Mark A. Flacy:
It was Nixon's and you know it.
Perhaps you should extend your reading a little more. Do you really believe that VietNam was President Nixon's fault?
ZZ Nixon started V... (Below threshold)
virgo:

ZZ

Nixon started Viet Nam??

Kerry had to run on a few m... (Below threshold)
Purple Avenger:

Kerry had to run on a few months in Vietnam because his political record in the senate was even thinner.

My sympathies, JT.... (Below threshold)

My sympathies, JT.

Kinda hard to keep the thread on track here. I think this was about some fella married to a rich lady, but if you just look at the comments and not the original post, you might have a problem determining that.

LONG posts deserve to be on your own blog and linked in your comment, not cut and pasted into a gimongous thread, which is what the comment "someone needs their own blog" means.

Something tells me that part of JFK's new strategy is to have sock puppets troll any sites criticising [smearing] him and respond with long and eloquent posts that set up straw men, ignore the real questions and dilute/distract any attempts to get to the core.

JT has good points and there is very little that effectively addresses them in most of the responses here. His post, as most, are non-partisan. No mention of Red Good, Blue Bad, as both supporters and detractors above have strayed into.

I agree - JFK, take the battle to the courts, and publicly cough up your papers, or STFU. There is no such thing as privacy when it comes to folks running for PUBLIC office. JFK has been a media manipulator since he returned from Vietnam, and that alone revokes cries of "he deserves his privacy." Ya jump into the spotlight, ya can't hide your warts and moles.

ZZ, you have some quality thoughts and data, but I'd recommend you put them in your blog and link to them. You also are straying from the topic substantially, and your answers to the topic are not part of the quality thoughts and data I mentioned. Tone down the haughty holier than thou as well - methinks the troll protests too much.

Posted by: Mark A. Flacy at... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Posted by: Mark A. Flacy at May 29, 2006 12:13 PM
Posted by: virgo at May 29, 2006 12:19 PM

No Mark and Viro,

Lyndon Johnson allowed it to escalate followed by Richard Nixon. However during the ensuing years, the pentagon papers were released which showed complicit behavior by our own government.

However, then leader Richard Nixon attempted to silence the newpapers from releasing the proof of the government's complicity in a landmark lawsuit which he eventually lost.

In the meantime, his mistakes compounded and the loss of lives continued. It was not until public sentement exploded that Nixon decided it was in his own best political interests to end the war.

History...the abbreviated version.


Posted by: La Mano at May 29, 2006 12:04 PM

Can I copy/paste that?

Thanks.

Where do things like ZZ Rev... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf:

Where do things like ZZ Revolution come from? I think the only information that thing gets is directly from Moonbat headquarters.

Sure was a quick trip to th... (Below threshold)
La Mano:

Sure was a quick trip to the CEMETARIES. Did you go to Cambodia, too?

Just can't stop trollin', can you?

BTW, what flags were you replacing the American ones with? The white flag of surrender? The Vietnamese flag, as Kerry would do? The flag of the UN?


"A friend and I are going to the local cemetaries and replacing the American flags for new ones.

We do this every Memorial Day.

Peace, dude!"
Posted by: ZZ Revolution at May 29, 2006 10:38 AM

"Kerry was merely their scapegoat. Someone for you to hate. But the people who start the war, maintain the war, and send people to die are the ones who must be blamed!"
Posted by: ZZ Revolution at May 29, 2006 11:53 AM

Posted by: epador at May 29... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Posted by: epador at May 29, 2006 12:36 PM

Thank you; however in my defence I had to respond to off track comments of others. Jay Tea, feel free to abbreviate the link which I attempted to do later when I realized it was so long.


Now, also, epador, whether I need to say this or not, I was here as a person who was defending both sides of the aisle because these issues arise for both. The same as when I went to the cemetary, I didn't look at a party affiliation or religion.


Posted by: La Mano at May 2... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Posted by: La Mano at May 29, 2006 12:38 PM

Yes, it was an hour trip to the cemetaries. I live in a small rural town with two small cemetaries. It doesn't take much time. However, this tradition has meant a lot to our families to do. Tonight we will take care of the flags in the time-honored manner.

Nice use of sarcasm.
However, I've never been to cambodia. Have you? And on this Memorial Day other than verbally abusing those who have a different opinion from you, what have you done to honor the fallen?

Posted by: La Mano at May 2... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Posted by: La Mano at May 29, 2006 12:38 PM

The funny thing is, le mano, that had I wanted to pull the wool over your eyes, I could have remained gone for 3 hours and come back and pretended to have been gone three hours. See...since my mind and heart are pure of deceit, I wasn't worried about that time stamp at all.

ZZ how did that trip to the... (Below threshold)
virgo:

ZZ how did that trip to the beaches of Normandy go? trollin trollin trollin..

Heh... I love people who vo... (Below threshold)

Heh... I love people who voted for kerry telling me how kerry lost my vote.

here is one for ya: How many medals did kerry write FOR HIS MEN?

Posted by: virgo at May 29,... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Posted by: virgo at May 29, 2006 12:51 PM

You run out of real facts, hun? That didn't take long.

Time to bring out the namecalling instead I see. I'm impressed. Were you a school bully too?

Thankfully, I'm too young to know Normandy. So I guess you better throw that line out of your repetoire and move on to your next one.


ZZ,"I live in a sm... (Below threshold)
La Mano:

ZZ,

"I live in a small rural town"

Too bad, you need to get out more. It might help rid that bitter attitude of yours.

And, I have never been to Cambodia (same can be said of JFKerry) BUT, I never said I had been there. Did you know that JFKerry WAS IN VIETNAM?

He must not have liked the area much; he did not spend much time there. Conveniently, got himself out early. I suppose that is not too difficult when you manage a purple heart for a scratch. What a guy; what a 'hero'.

Guess he had to hurry home to throw his 'medals' over the Capitol fence and then meet with the Vietcong in Paris.

It was intended as an examp... (Below threshold)
virgo:

It was intended as an example of a tender Bill Clinton photo op moment, just like you letting us in on Your cemetery visit! totally irrelevant to anything!

ZZ wrote, "I'm too young to... (Below threshold)
La Mano:

ZZ wrote, "I'm too young to know Normandy"

You might try a HISTORY BOOK.

Posted by: La Mano at May 2... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Posted by: La Mano at May 29, 2006 01:02 PM

You weren't there, but you're mighty brave to speak that way of someone who went! Now that's a chicken for you. Always ready and willing to accuse somone of doing something like that when they didn't even go to war themselves. No wonder you like Bush. He didn't go either. He just got drunk.

Can't blame him for getting drunk though.

Oh My...La mano, I thought ... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Oh My...La mano, I thought you meant I landed on Normandy with other WWII soldiers. I'm much too young to have done that. But weren't those people from Germany fighting against Saudia Arabia?

Naw....

It was not until public ... (Below threshold)
Purple Avenger:

It was not until public sentement exploded that Nixon decided it was in his own best political interests to end the war.

Perhaps, but it certainly wasn't in the best interests of the 2,000,000 or so victims of the Pol Pot regime after our influence in the region receeded.

The left always conveniently forgets about them.

Posted by: virgo at May 29,... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Posted by: virgo at May 29, 2006 01:03 PM

Virgo,

And to think I thought I was being polite to Jay Tea and letting him know that I was looking forward to coming back and resuming the rational discussion we'd been having.

But it definately got side tracked now. Oh..I know, I'm suppose to be the troll who side tracked the conversation.

John Kerry, a reserve naval... (Below threshold)
cubanbob:

John Kerry, a reserve naval officer, goes to Paris and meets enemy government officials. So unless he can prove he did this under orders, the man committed an act of treason. Period. End of story.
And let's not overlook he testimony accusing the military of committing systematic war crimes and being part of an enemy sympathizing front group.

This fake war hero will never release his records.
And he will threaten but never sue. He is a fake and a fraud, typical left winger.

I'd like to ask everyone to... (Below threshold)
Jay Tea:

I'd like to ask everyone to quiet down, leave poor ZZ alone for a few minutes, and ask if he knows the answers to Bruce Kesler's 30 questions about Kerry's military record -- or if he can refute any of Kesler's answers.

(http://www.augustafreepress.com/stories/storyReader$25995)

Bonus points if he can answer any of them with links to Kerry's record posted online.

J.

Now then, where were we?</p... (Below threshold)
Fred Z:

Now then, where were we?

Oh yeah, Kerry, and whether he lied about his service record and records.

Sorry lefties, but that question is in play, and it matters not whether Kerry put it there or not. I think he did; if he did not I think the lefty attack on GWB put it into play. Maybe Rove put it in play.

The question has a real and objective answer and nearly all of the evidence points to 'Kerry lied'.

I eagerly await the usual lefty evasions, avoidances, changes of topic, fanciful responses - 'Bush is a spoiled frat boy dork', I am delusional, 'mean-spirited' (although that one seems out of favor lately) a racist and ...wait for it... it's coming...a Nazi.

Posted by: Jay Tea at May 2... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Posted by: Jay Tea at May 29, 2006 01:26 PM

Where?

The Hitler response comes w... (Below threshold)
virgo:

The Hitler response comes when theyve really been nailed Fred..

30 excellent points on the augusta link, it will be interesting to hear a response. I suspect Kesler will be labled a Swift Boat conspirator.

According to Heidi way back... (Below threshold)
Jay Tea:

According to Heidi way back when, ZZ, Kerry HAS released all his military records. And you can trust him, because he said so. Right before he said he WOULD release them. Over a year ago. But nobody outside a very select group (three, at last count) has seen 'em...

Four, if you count Heidi.

J.

Jay Taa,I am not u... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Jay Taa,

I am not understanding your question. The link that you gave showed what that person believes are the facts. So what exactly are you asking? Do I agree with those answers?

Jay Tea,Sorry abou... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Jay Tea,

Sorry about the mispelling above. So, I have to leave a while but I'll try to catch your answer to my question above.

Sorry...but I've got a full day and when I first logged into your site, I had no idea I would end up being the pet troll for the day.

However, I do hope to respond to your question as soon as you tell me what you want answered.

ZZ revolultion:... (Below threshold)
Truzenzuzex:

ZZ revolultion:

Actually, the information about George Bush is part of court records, including records that he was given community service.

Not the drug part, zz. But you knew that.

By the way, you have done a good job of hijacking this thread and changing the subject. Just to remind you - it isn't about World War II, or Bush, or Pol Pot, or Nixon, or Bush's approval ratings. It is about Kerry's questionable actions during the Viet Nam war and his decision to re-fight the election debalcle with the SBVFT.

This kind of shows the frac... (Below threshold)
jp2:

This kind of shows the fracture in the Republican party right now. One Republican writer praises the troops, and another Republican writer insults them.

Stay classy JT. Stay classy.

OK, ZZ, I'll put it into si... (Below threshold)
Jay Tea:

OK, ZZ, I'll put it into simple questions:

1) Can you refute any or all of the allegations against John Kerry's war record spelled out by Bruce Kesler?

2) Can you find any evidence that John Kerry has released his full military record, as he said he has and then (later) promised to do?

3) This one is largely rhetorical: Why the hell is Kerry choosing to refight this battle, almost a year and a half AFTER the election?

J.

Blah blah blah, 90% of this... (Below threshold)

Blah blah blah, 90% of this is irrelevant.

Let's see what kerry has to "refute" the claims. Once all is said and done, let's see which claims have NOT been refuted.

And then GAME ON, BICHES! MWUAHAHAHA!

Just got back from Ft. Loga... (Below threshold)
Drew E.:

Just got back from Ft. Logan Cemetary here in Denver. Paid tribute to my dad and too many friends buried there. Let me be clear. No one killed, wounded, or fighting in Iraq is doing so to protect our freedom.

At no time was Saddam a threat to any U.S freedom. At no time were we in danger of the Iraqi flag flying over the White House. At what time as the bloody count continues will you be able to say "No more die for the LIE" The big lie. The lie that anyone over in the hell WE have created in Iraq is there to protect "our freedom"
Bush and Cheney and Rummy will end up in the same part of hell as Johnson/Nixon/Kissinger

Posted by: Truzenzuzex at M... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Posted by: Truzenzuzex at May 29, 2006 01:55 PM

Hey, I only responded to other peoples' points by bringing up the refutations. I can not accept the credit for the highjacking when others bring in those points and I merely refute them.

Jay Tea,

Ok, thanks for those easy 3 questions. I will do that while I'm back and forth today and post as I can.

Answer to number three right now...How the hell do I know? I'm just a normal person.

Number two...I saw his records online in 2004.

Now..I will check back later...I do have to go. (Nope..no more flags or cemetaries before anyone asks.)

Me thinks "dude" ZZ has had... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

Me thinks "dude" ZZ has had one to many puffs today. ( it is unbelieveable how "patriotic" old "dude" ZZ is-or so he wants us to believe). Wonder why he would bring this up? Does he like to toot his own horn?

BRING THEM HOME NOW... (Below threshold)
Drew E.:

BRING THEM HOME NOW

LET US WORK.... (Below threshold)

LET US WORK.

snooze revolution -H... (Below threshold)
monday morning observer:

snooze revolution -
Here's something for you to consider - I don't like Kerry because of his personality. Period. He is haughty, pious, rude, self-impressed, and begging for attention. He left his wife (of the 1/4$B fortune) and two kids for the wife of the 3/4$B fortune (his best friend's widow, and his best friend's money). This is not an honorable thing to do, and it certainly doesn't make him attractive to women. As you would suspect, it makes him look like a cheap (of course the term 'cheap' is debatable in this context) golddigger. That's not sexy. He is constantly playing "look at me...in my tight bike shorts...in my tight windsurfing shorts...in my football catching pose." He thinks he's gorgeous, and he's convinced Teresa (maybe)...he loves his mirror, and he loves his voice. How boring it would be to have to listen to him all day! And can you imagine having a meaningful conversation with him?! Overall, I consider him a self-possessed bore.

I was actually glad to hear that his military record wasn't all it seemed, because I felt bad, subconsciously disliking a war hero. When I found out he wasn't such a hero, I was relieved to find that my instincts were correct. I personally can't stand the way he talks down to others, in his tutoring style, as if he's the only one possessed of a brain. I understand how some people fall under his power (snooze, pay attention), but when I think for myself, my instincts tell me to stay away. This is a dangerous man whose first thoughts are always of himself. None of these thoughts are based on facts, just my personal perceptions.

Snooze, he truly hasn't released his military records (don't bring Bush into this, we're talking about Kerry, remember?!), has he? Please answer the question. It's a simple question.
And isn't that all he has to do to prove he's a hero?

Snooze, (I'm calling you snooze because you've been so rude to others - how does it feel? If you've learned your lesson, I'll start calling you ZZ) your passion is admirable, but surely you know it's wasted at this website. Most of us read Wizbang and other blogs, consider the facts, and make our own decisions.

BTW, why are you 'replacing' flags? Do you leave them up all year? And if not, what do you mean by 'Tonight we will take care of the flags in the time-honored manner.'?

Yes releasing His war recor... (Below threshold)
virgo:

Yes releasing His war records certainly would have cleared all this shenanigans up, but that is not possible when the truth says differently!

Oh, and ZZ, if you're wonde... (Below threshold)
Jay Tea:

Oh, and ZZ, if you're wondering why I keep bringing up Heidi's declaration to you: it might be that Heidi posted that declaration from the very same IP you've been using all day, less than an hour before you put up your first comment. An odd little coincidence, don't you think?

J.

Posted by: monday morning o... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Posted by: monday morning observer at May 29, 2006 02:23 PM

Quick comment:
The rumors about his first marraige are simply rumors not even worth dignifying a response to anymore than I'd demand a response to you from the Globe's current article that says Mrs. Bush and President Bush don't sleep together, she calls him a drunk and tells him to get psychological help, and that their marraige is over. It's the same type of junk and it's not relevent.

The flags that are at cemetaries get old, ragged and so we replace them with new ones. Out of respect. The friend who got me started on doing this originally began because his father who was a Vet and a member of the local VFW got him started on it. Now we do it to pay respects to his father who passed away as well as for the soldiers who served.

Once the old flag is picked up, the time honored way to dispose of a flag is rather ceremonial too. Members of the military salute the flag and it is folded (if it's the large kind) in the standard triangle with the stars and stripes showing. Then it is burned. The key is that the stars and stripes must show.

The flags we put out at cemetaries are the little ones on sticks so it's a little easier to burn them in the time honored fashion.

It's also sad too in my opinion.

So, Virgo, JK's records were definately online in 04. I saw them on John Kerry's website as well as others too. In fact, a friend of mine printed up the whole stack and brought them to her co-worker who looked at each of them and then promptly decided that they were indeed available for anyone who wanted to get them.

I have not had a chance to look back at that other site yet because I'm swamped here. I promise to look back more thoroughly and delve into whatever answers I can.

Posted by: Jay Tea at May 2... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Posted by: Jay Tea at May 29, 2006 03:49 PM

Ever hear of a computer lab, JT? Or a computer network system? Interesting how many computers can be hooked to one ip, don't you think?

Hmmmm.I s... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

I still remember well JF Kerrys acceptence speech at the Democrat National Convention.

Frankly all I remember of that speech is:

"Thank you."
"Thank you."

... 15 minutes later ...

"Thank you."
"Thank you."

Yeah, heard of those. Even ... (Below threshold)
Jay Tea:

Yeah, heard of those. Even seen a few. But it wasn't just the shared IP that caused me to speculate, ZZ...

And I notice you are not confirming or denying my implicit accusation.

J.

ed, there was a bit more th... (Below threshold)
Jay Tea:

ed, there was a bit more than that. I recall something about "reporting for doody" and an incredibly lame salute...

J.

[email protected] zz revolut... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

@ zz revolution

Lyndon Johnson allowed it to escalate followed by Richard Nixon.

What utter rubbish!

Johnson didn't "allow" Vietnam to escalate. Anybody who either thinks so or thinks he can push this bullshit is a fool.

Lyndon Johnson specifically fabricated an incident which he then seized upon in order to push through an escalation of the war, which at that time had largely been one of providing supplies, money and advisors.

I.e. Tonkin Gulf Resultion.

Dumbass. Really now. You have to be a complete shithead to not even understand this.

1. Did Kerry want to go to ... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

1. Did Kerry want to go to Vietnam? Nobody 'wanted" to go to Vietnam. It's not like someone wakes up in the morning and says, "I'm moving to a war zone."

2. Did Kerry exaggerate his service on the USS Gridley, offshore Vietnam, for Douglas Brinkley's book Tour Of Duty?
No, other sources say the opposite.

3. Did Kerry want to be in combat?

He was there. Who cares about what he or anyone wanted. People who serve go where they're told to go.

4. Was Kerry's first Purple Heart merited?

Yes. Anyone who is wounded in a warzone deserves their badges. That goes for any person any political party. Anyone!

5. What is the significance of this first Purple Heart incident?
see answer above.

6. Was there political influence or other explanation for the issuance of the first Purple Heart?

No, I base this on the same theory that the author used. It's my own knowledge of the situation and my own interpretation.

7. Has the merit of Kerry's second Purple Heart been challenged?

No. It has not been seriously challenged.

8. Did Kerry's account of his second Purple Heart vary from facts?

No. He had proof both on his website and proof from the military that says his account was true. An investigation resulted and Kerry was indeed awarded all his medals legitimately with testimony from all available sources taken into account.


9. Did Kerry merit the Silver Star?

Right, one supporter out of how many? I'm sure I can find one person in any situation to say the opposite of what is true, particularly if they didn't actually see anything but have a reason to make trouble.

10. Did Kerry merit the Bronze Star?

11. Did Kerry merit the third Purple Heart for the Bronze Star incident?
Yes, I support our troops. Anyone serving in any foreign war deserves their medals, period.


12. Did Kerry display physical courage in Vietnam?

Indisputably. In all cases, maybe.

13. Does the Kerry Website displayed documents show a "V" on the Silver Star, which is not practice?

Yes.

14. Do the three citations for the Silver Star contain varying accounts of its merits?

Yes.

15. Why do the three Silver Star citations contain differing accounts?

Not answered yet. The Secretary of the Navy, John Lehman, says he did not do the third citation - the signature may be an autopen - nor does he know why it was issued in the '80s.

16. Was Kerry in Cambodia on Christmas 1968?

All evidence is to the contrary to Kerry's up to 50 times repeating this story.

17. Was Kerry in Cambodia at another time?

See NYT article with documented portions.

18. Did Kerry write up some of the reports at dispute in the medals?

See NYT article with documentation.

19. Did Kerry accuse the U.S. and Vietnam veterans of committing pervasive, sanctioned atrocities?

Yes. Read the words and accounts of the time in 1971.

20. Did Kerry attend a meeting of Vietnam Veterans Against the War in November 1971 at which it was proposed to assassinate several pro-Vietnam war U.S. senators?

Yes.

21. Did Kerry deny he was there?

I'm not sure. (See I'm an honest troll!)

22. Did Kerry report the danger to any authorities?

I don't know. I have seen no documentation to prove if he attempted to or not.

23. Did Kerry break the Logan Act by going to the Paris Peace Talks to talk with the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong delegations, or other laws related to his deserve obligations in his protest activities?

No.

24. Did Kerry mislead that he tossed his medals during a protest demonstration?

No. Medals or ribbons it's pretty irrelevent.

25. Were Kerry's words used against POWs in North Vietnam?

Probably. Would they have done it anyway to the POW's? Yes! Did Kerry's actions as well as the majority of Peace supporters end up saving lives by ending the war earlier than Nixon was willing to do it? Yes again. Did these actions save some people from torture? Yes. Did they save lives? yes.

26. Did Kerry push normalization of U.S. relations with Vietnam, and for a relative's profit?

Rumor from this author. The answer is NO without proof.


27. Has Kerry ever apologized or recanted for any of his above actions and words?

Why should he? Thank god we're not still shooting at the Vietnamese or we'd have even more than 50,000 dead soldiers.

28. Has John Kerry released his full military records and journals?

Yes

29. Has the mainstream press requested the release of Kerry's full military records?
The media can file FOIA's anytime they want.

30. Has there been more smoke than wood in much of this public debate?

There's been a lot of innuendo without merit.

Now, Jay Tea, I've dealt with you in an honest, if unintentionally troll-like manner, I appreciate that you know my ip and that of my friend Heidi.

I'm sure you'll be turning it over to the NSA and the ATT for them to spy on me.

Now, JT, keep in mind that ... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Now, JT, keep in mind that when you turn in this IP many users are on it: not just me and Heidi but everyonce in a while my neighbors and their pet trolls come use it too.

Thanks for the fun day on your blog.

JTAre You insinuat... (Below threshold)
virgo:

JT

Are You insinuating that Heidi and ZZtop are one and the same?

Posted by: virgo at May 29,... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Posted by: virgo at May 29, 2006 04:15 PM

He was. They're not.

Hmmmm.Here's a clu... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

Here's a clue for you zz revolution:

Copying & pasting pages of nonsense doesn't earn you any respect here. If you're really intent on boring the hell out of us, then provide a link and maybe we'll waste our time on it.

Copying & pasting someone else's idiot nonsense doesn't earn you any respect here. Just because someone else spouted it doesn't make it either true or relevant.

And posting enormous loads of crap doesn't earn you any respect here either. If you can't be direct, to the point and ON point, then whatever nonsense you're pushing isn't worth my time.

And finally if you can't be bothered to actually do sufficient research to have a solid understanding of the facts then you're just a waste of bandwidth.

I spent time to read over the useless tripe you saw fit to post here and found nothing of worth whatsoever. What was posted was either unsupported opinion, a shallow version of "I know you are but what am I" or just completely an utterly wrong.

Frankly it's nonsense like this that I find personally irritating. After years of visiting blogs of all political stripes I have yet to find more than a handful of liberals who have even the slightest grasp of history or logic.

And you are most definitely not in that handful.

Posted by: ed at May 29, 20... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Posted by: ed at May 29, 2006 04:21 PM

Ed,

The link I copied/pasted and answered was in referenve to your friend, Jt's request.

Looks like the logic and graps of reality is lost to you too.

Jay Tea,

Thanks for the fun.

A seminary blogger! how qua... (Below threshold)
virgo:

A seminary blogger! how quaint.

This is still a false premi... (Below threshold)

This is still a false premise, as theswiftboats are not why kerry lost the election.

As for the swiftboat hooplah itself: If EVERYTHING Kerry claimed is true. If EVERYTHING the swifties said is false. It still makes him a moron for running the campaign as he did.

He reminds me of Al Bundy. 4 Touchdowns in a single football game!

Enough of the superfluous s... (Below threshold)
Jay Tea:

Enough of the superfluous stuff, ZZ. Now you've conclusively stated that Kerry has released his full service record to the public. I can not believe that in this day and age, such a document would not make it on to the web -- yet no one can point it out to me. The Smoking Gun doesn't have it, no right-wing or left-wing sites have it, nobody.

But who has gotten it?

Douglas Brinkley, historian, author of "Tour Of Duty: John Kerry and the Viet Nam War" (authorized by Kerry)

Michael Kranish, Boston Globe reporter, author of "John F. Kerry: The Complete Biography" (authorized by Kerry)

Unnamed reporter, The Los Angeles Times

None of these people will give verifying details about just what they received -- no page counts, no list of documents, not even a copy of the actual Form 180 that details just what records are being released. All just ask that we trust them and take their word that the records contain "nothing scandalous" or, indeed, anything besides what is already commonly known.

I don't particularly feel like trusting Kerry's cronies to vouch for him...

J.

Correction: the LA Times re... (Below threshold)
Jay Tea:

Correction: the LA Times reporter in question was NOT unnamed, but Stephen Braun, author of numerous Kerry puff pieces before he was given Kerry's service record. Curse me for hitting "Post" so quickly...

J.

ZZ claims he is not a lawye... (Below threshold)
cubanbob:

ZZ claims he is not a lawyer, but simply asserts the jfk meeting with enemy officials while a reserve officer was proper and legal. just his word, no other back up of his assertion. As for jkk's medals, who wrote the citations? jfk has not made a full disclosure of his record because he has something to hide, otherwise why all the dodging? But his miraculous 90 day tour is the basis of his legitimacy.
Military service is not a requirement to hold office. Lying and exaggerating about ones record is a character flaw and a serious disqualification for a serious and honest voter. I'm sure zz believes jfk was taking Captain Willard up the Nung River on a secret CIA mission to waste a rogue Colonel Kurtz. The reality based voters just figured him out to be a sleazy gigolo of questionable honor, integrity and patriotism.

So many distractions have b... (Below threshold)

So many distractions have been posted since the beginning of this thread. I would like to go back to the start and something ZZ said early on.

You can not just say, "Waaaaahhhh, they lied." without proof. Kerry and his supporters are clearly gathering that proof and preparing to nail those liars to the wall. AFTER and only after proof is gathered, and proof that will stand up in a court of law, can John Kerry sue those liars for every cent they have.

Now ZZ first a question are you accusing the Swift Boat Vets of being liars?

If so can you please tell me what you base that accusation on?

I followed this whole thing very closely during the election. The best I can come up with is this.

John Kerry was a highly decorated LT who served for 4 months in Vietnam. Since that time he has been caught lying about serving in Cambodia on numerous occasions (there is no doubt this was an intentional lie due to his choice of words). He has been caught lying about taking "secret agents" on top secret missions into Cambodia. He has been caught lying about attending a meeting of Vietnam Veterans Against the War where the suggestion was made to assassinate several US Senators. The man who made that suggestion Scot Camil is still a friend of Kerry's; served as a volunteer on Kerry's presidential campaign and publicly stated during the campaign that he has no regrets about making the proposal to assasinate US Senators and would do it again.

Now either the man John Kerry who I have just described is a liar or:

Over 2 dozen highly decorated men who served full tours or multiple tours of duty in Vietnam and have first hand accounts of John Kerry's actions are liars.

None of these men are politicians, many are Republicans but several are Democrats. They have all since lived honorable lives. Many with long military careers including admirals and other high ranking officers. These men had nothing to gain other than preventing the election of John Kerry. They have much to loose both personally and professionally.

So you tell me is it more likely that one self serving politician running for president is lying or 2 dozen war heroes are lying?

Now either you already know everything I just mentioned and have no need to see the links that will open your eyes or or you are completely clueless to what kind of man John Kerry really is.

ed and Rob in LA,I... (Below threshold)
oncall:

ed and Rob in LA,

If you really want to get angry try reading, How Would a Patriot Act?
It details how our constitution is being torn to shreds. Maybe you can direct your anger at those who are ruining what this country stands for.

You might just learn something.

Ugly,You seemed to... (Below threshold)
oncall:

Ugly,

You seemed to have forgotten the other veteran making accusations who got caught in many lies, and decided he had nothing more to say. Perhaps you remember his name - seeing how you followed it so closely. So I have to say that I would believe JK before I would believe those who for personal gain (they were selling a book) would accuse a soldier of lying about his record. I would like to know as well, who is more likely to be lying, those who actually served with JK on his boat or those who did not serve with him?

Hmmmm.If ... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

If you really want to get angry try reading, How Would a Patriot Act? It details how our constitution is being torn to shreds. Maybe you can direct your anger at those who are ruining what this country stands for.

Frankly every 40 years or so come the well intentioned accusations that the Constitution is being shredded over this or that. The fact is that the composition of the SOCTUS does change the interpretation of the Constitution, but until and unless there is an Constitutional Amendment, then there's no real chance of the Constitution actually being shredded.

As time passes and the imperatives that drove differing interpretations of the Constitution change or disappear, then the Constitution rebounds to it's previous incarnations.

This is why Lincoln could effectively remove the SCOTUS from power without lasting effect. This is why FDR was able to run roughshod over many civil liberties during WWII.

Once circumstances change, then the imperatives that drive interpretations of the Constitution similarly change. Thus I have little regard either for or against the Patriot Act because it is ultimately temporary. Once the evident danger has passed or be substantially reduced, then there will be calls for reforming or repealing the Patriot Act and replacing it with something more useful over the long term rather than the short term.

Ultimately the genius of the Founding Fathers is proven repeatedly through the centuries.

Hmmm.Actually this... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

Actually this mechanism, the "shredding" of the Constitution by Amendments, is one of the things that concern me over the legalisation of illegal aliens. The fact that nobody really knows either how many illegal aliens there are, or how many there will be, that will be made legal citizens fills me with doubt.

It makes me doubt because the probable effect of these new citizens seeking to immigrate their parents, spouses, children and relatives. Even if the number is as low as 20 million illegals then the potential is for the immigration of 2 parents, 1 spouse and perhaps 2 children per illegal. This would vastly increase the total number immigrated and eventually made into citizens from the initial 20 million to 120 million.

Given just 10-20 years this entire number could possibly become legal voters, which would equal the total number of voters in the 2004 national elections. Yet the possible impact on state and local elections would be much greater as the new citizens spread out across the country.

It would only take 2/3rds of the states voting for a Constitutional Amendment to make it law. And there are no limits to what can be put into a Constitutional Amendment.

The potential for mischief is vast.

Wow Ed, Jay Tea, and all,</... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Wow Ed, Jay Tea, and all,

This is the guy you put all your faith in? A person attached to a known liar O'Neal!

"Bruce Kesler was a Marine sergeant in Vietnam from 1969-70. In 1971, he founded the Vietnam Veterans for a Just Peace, which John O'Neill"

To think when I first logged in hear I thought we could have a rational discussion. I now see why it wasn't.

O'Neal! I can't stop laughing now!

ha ha ha

ho ho ho

ha ha ha

O'NEAL...Wow! And even the top part of Bruce Kesler's article was a lie-- because he should have revealed his O'neal connection from the get-go.

EVERYONE on this planet knows any crownies of O'Neils can be trusted as far as you can throw him.

Hey, Heidi's back now. Should I go get her too?

Geez, ZZ. It took you THIS ... (Below threshold)
Jay Tea:

Geez, ZZ. It took you THIS LONG to get around to Googling up some dirt on Kessler? And make up your mind -- is it O'Neill or O'Neal?

It all boils down to the "shoot the messenger" tactic, though. My key point remains the same: if John Kerry did what he 1) repeatedly said he did, and 2) repeatedly promised he'd do, and release his full records, the whole discussion would evaporate.

Instead, he wants to keep re-fighting it.

No, that's not entirely accurate. He wants to keep rewriting the old fight so he comes out the winner. It's the Kerry way. Unfortunately, there are those of us who actually remember things as they happened, not as he tells us they did.

J.

Posted by: Jay Tea at May 2... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Posted by: Jay Tea at May 29, 2006 07:05 PM

Yes, it did take a long time. I did tell you I was very busy. But...if you like to talk about re-writing history, then you shouldn't be suporting anyone like Kesler or John O'Neill because both of them have their own history of making up many versions of events.

Even Nixon has O'Neill on tape lying his a$$ off about Cambodia.

ha ha ha

Now this is just too funny!

ZZ,In your first pos... (Below threshold)
LCDR J. MacKay:

ZZ,
In your first post, you say JK was an "honorable soldier". If you are going to defend the guy, at least get it right what the hell he did. He was in the Navy, therefore a SAILOR, not a SOLDIER. I know, watching his little home movie you got caught up in thinking he must be a soldier just like in Platoon or even better for obvious reasons, Apocalypse Now. I'm active duty and even before I ever heard of the Swifties for Truth, I had many doubts and questions about his service and still do to this day. Also, on your great list of Dem vets, you forgot to mention Harkin as saying he flew in combat when in fact he didn't. He was just a repo pilot. Repo means reposition i.e. fly from point A to point B. If you are going to argue something, at least be honest about what you are talking about.

I noticed that ed came up w... (Below threshold)
oncall:

I noticed that ed came up with a whole litany of irrelevant reasons not to read the book I recommended. Perhaps just taking a moment and reviewing the first thirty pages of How Would a Patriot Act? will get you to better understand why your conservative credentials are no more legitimate than mine and vice versa. The book has nothing to do with adding new amendments to the constitution. It has everything to do with Justice Scalia and Bob Barr (far from a leftwing "liberal nutjobs)" describing President Bush's policy decisons akin to a monarch's.

I agree there is a genius to what the founding fathers developed and explained in the Federalist Papers. However, the fact remains that the Bush adminstration has declared the "war on terrorism" the "long war" as well. So the question becomes, when will the appropriate time arrive when this war will be declared over?

Your politics are your decision, but as an American you should not be hesitant to discover what is being done on "your behalf".

Hey, Jt...so sorry for the ... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Hey, Jt...so sorry for the last snicker. I really thought you quoted credible people so I was quite shocked to see the quality of your sources.


Posted by: LCDR J. MacKay at May 29, 2006 07:18 PM

Soldier, Commander, Sailor, Airman...I know it means something to you, LCDR J MacKay, but frankly what those titles mean to me is simple. It means anyone--anyone who serves--even if they do not hold my political beliefs deserves respect, kindness, and appreciation for what they have given to our country, perios.


Period. (sorry about that ... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Period. (sorry about that typo)

Wow! What a waste of space... (Below threshold)
JannyMae:

Wow! What a waste of space on this thread.

For those of you who are blindly defending Senator Kerry, please explain why, if the SBVT's are, "liars," why has Kerry continued to refuse to release his records, and PROVE them liars?

If Kerry's record is so noble and perfect, why won't he make it public?

Yes, I know, you are going to answer again, with the lie that he has made all his records public, right?

Let him run again. He will not get past his lies, as the SBVT's will continue to point them out.

I'm beginning to wonder if ... (Below threshold)

I'm beginning to wonder if ZZ is actually Scooter from the Peace Moonbeam Chronicles...

ZZYour still here?... (Below threshold)
virgo:

ZZ

Your still here? man for being busy you sure spend a lot of time defending the indefensible! Kerry has taken you for a long and boring ride, keep slinging the BS ZZ.

Now now guys be more forgiv... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

Now now guys be more forgiving of this young "dude" ZZ. Someone has to takeup for old "horseface". Also I think "dude" ZZ keeps sKerry supplied with band-aids as his "war" wounds have still not healed. Old "dude" ZZ is also trying to show sKerry how to use MapQuest so he will not get lost on his way back to Cambodia.( I know it is not even close to Christmas yet but Skerry has a hard time remenbering where was on a certain date so they are planing ahead.)

ZZ seems to be from the onl... (Below threshold)
cstmbuild:

ZZ seems to be from the only "small" town with a computer lab that is open 24 hrs.

Oh what, I get it. Sorry ZZ, didn't realize you are in college at a small college like, maybe, Berkley(sp?)?

Try talking to someone other than your professors ZZ. You might learn something new. I started out a Democrat myself. It didn't take me long to figure out my teachers (in High School) had fed me a load of crap, at least one sides anyway. By my soph year of college I had figured out that most of the professors where interested in their view and their view alone. DOn't try to use facts in your papers just spit out the information they supplied to you. (Wouldn't want to think for myself, now would I?)

This really is funny. ... (Below threshold)

This really is funny.

It wouldn't matter if the worst lying liar's lying liar was telling lies about John Kerry because all anyone has to do is look at what John Kerry has said *himself*. It doesn't really take any extra "info" to discredit him when it comes to Vietnam because he fully admits to Winter Soldier, the meetings in Paris, throwing away *someone elses* medals, and everything that came after.

No authority other than JFKerry needs to be vetted as reliable in order for the *fact* that he has *not* released his military records (he released *some* of them) to be known. He simply hasn't done it.

We know he hasn't because in those records will be a record of the military officers IQ evaluation... Bush's IQ equivalent is public because Bush released his records. Is it possible that *someone* wouldn't have compared Bush's IQ to Kerry's IQ during the last elections?

You know all this speculation that Kerry might have gotten a dishonorable discharge? I don't think that's it. If he did it would have been (probably) for his anti-war activity and he could spin that into a political boon.

I think he didn't want his IQ scores released.

Whatever the case may be, the fact is that he said that he'd release his records and he hasn't done it.

Hmmmm.You... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

You know all this speculation that Kerry might have gotten a dishonorable discharge? I don't think that's it. If he did it would have been (probably) for his anti-war activity and he could spin that into a political boon.

That's actually a bit wrong I think.

I believe Kerry first ran for the House as a anti-war icon and protestor, and it didn't work out for him. I believe when Kerry ran for public office again it was as a war hero rather than as an anti-war protestor.

So it's very unlikely that Kerry would want himself permanently tarred with a bad conduct discharge.


Mystery Surrounds Kerry's Navy Discharge

By THOMAS LIPSCOMB - Special to the Sun

http://www.nysun.com/article/3107

I frankly find it strange to this day that Kerry exalts Jimmmy Carter above all others. And it was President Jimmy Carter that was responsible for the executive order that forced the DOD to give officers discharged with other than Honorable Discharges a review process to "heal" their discharge status.

Synova wrote, "I think he d... (Below threshold)
La Mano:

Synova wrote, "I think he didn't want his IQ scores released."

Hey, he was smart enough to marry a lot of money: TWICE.

How's that spelled? Give me a 'G' ... give me an 'I' ..... give me another 'G' .... give me an 'O' ...

Hmmmm.I n... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

I noticed that ed came up with a whole litany of irrelevant reasons not to read the book I recommended. Perhaps just taking a moment and reviewing the first thirty pages of How Would a Patriot Act? will get you to better understand why your conservative credentials are no more legitimate than mine and vice versa. ...

Frankly I couldn't give a damn whether or not anybody else thinks I'm a conservative. I am a conservative but I'm neither going to apologise to you or even bother explaining my political ideology.

Personally I've read tracts like this before. And I pointed out for you that similar circumstances have happened in the past, both far and near. If you had availed yourself of some quiet reading on the things Lincoln had done during his wartime tenure I'm certain it would have raised your hackles like nothing else. After all suspending Habeus Corpus, conducting mass arrests of known or suspected Southern sympathizers with either no or trumped up evidence and reducing the Supreme Court to an irrelevant body are steps that even Bush hasn't dared do yet.

And yet here we are 140+ years later and Habeus Corpus hasn't been suspended in over a century. Here we are and mass arrests based on trumped up evidence are clearly illegal. Here we are over a century later and the Supreme Court has even more relevance than when it was first created.

And quite frankly I think that you, as a conservative, if you are really a conservative, should be wary of reading books by Glen Greenwald, who is a ultra-liberal as they get.

Or don't you recognize propoganda when you see it?

Frankly there have been endless cycles where people have cried out in indignation that Liberty is dead, only to see such circumstances pass. Perhaps you consider me to be a fool for reserving judgement, conservatives do tend to be conservative after all.

Hmmmm.Wow... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

Wow Ed, Jay Tea, and all,

This is the guy you put all your faith in? A person attached to a known liar O'Neal!

Why do you always seem to include me in things that I have had no participation in? Have I brought up Bruce Kessler? No I haven't. So direct your responses appropriately and stop being so sloppy.

give me an 'L'...give me an... (Below threshold)
virgo:

give me an 'L'...give me another 'O'...sorry La Mano i just could not resist! hehe

It means anyone--anyone... (Below threshold)
John Irving:

It means anyone--anyone who serves--even if they do not hold my political beliefs deserves respect, kindness, and appreciation for what they have given to our country, perios.
-ZZ Revolution

Earlier ZZ
who have the same type of criminal & military history as GWB has.

ed,Just so you kno... (Below threshold)
oncall:

ed,

Just so you know. Bush does claim that he has the right to imprison without habeas corpus. Read the AG's and Justice Department's (the Yoo memo) filiings. Even the Supreme Court dismissed their positions as garbage. So what does Bush do after getting slammed by the Supreme Court? He releases a "terrorist" from solitary and lets him go back home to Saudi Arabia. If he had a case, why weren't charges filed? (National Security secrets is the stock in trade cover answer.)

I am familiar with Lincoln and his decrees during the Civil War. Legally, Lincoln was wrong. However, the United States was at war. Currently we are not in declared war. We are using military force - big difference. Still the Congress in 1863 granted Lincoln the right to suspend habeus corpus. Congress also did the same for President Grant in 1877

Like I said before, I don't care about labels such as conservative or liberal.

Yes, the United States did manage to survive threats to its constitution, but those were generally due to a Congress that would not allow a president to claim absolute power. We have little of that type of guardianship from the power in party now.

Let me ask you a simple yes or no question: When Nixon said "When the President does it, that means it is not illegal." Do you agree with that statement in light of Hamdi vs. Rumsfeld case and the Padilla case?

ed,I don't think y... (Below threshold)
oncall:

ed,

I don't think you are reserving judgement. I think you are too timid to closely examine what really is happening in this country. Why don't you try to read a little more yourself and then make some judgements after you have read what is relevant to today's situation?

Posted by: John Irving at M... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Posted by: John Irving at May 30, 2006 12:47 AM

Did Bush serve? That has yet to be proven. Records indicate that he never bothered showing up to complete his National Guard Duty.

Show me the money on that and I'll show him respect. Until then, there is more substantiated evidence that George W. Bush was drunk, AWOL, and used his father's Senatorial influence and money to get him that nice job in the NG that he didn't complete.

Good try though. I thought you'd cry about the lack of respect to O'Neill who served. But I guess not even your side is proud of O'neill. He's sort of the ugly wart that gets you in to see the doctor but turns everyone else off.

Btw, John...

If you're implying that JK had a criminal history that is slander and libel. You have absolutely no prosecutorial evidence or even investigations that indicate he was ever indicted for criminal behavior or drunken behavior, for going awol, or for any activity outside the laws of our land. What you implied was a smear and unsubstantuated innuendo against John Kerry! Furthermore, you compared him to GWB who has court records against him. GWB also admitted to using cocaine which is against the law, and he admitted to hiding that information prior to 2000 and 2004 to protect his kids from the information that he was an illegal drug user. That has also been documented on tape with GWB's own voice and own words in a confession to a journalist who chose to not release these interviews until after the election.

Stick to facts John, not innuendo and smear.

ZZ,You're becoming... (Below threshold)
La Mano:

ZZ,

You're becoming ZZZZZZZZZZZZ.....

JFKerry, better knows as JF... (Below threshold)
La Mano:

JFKerry, better knows as JFKerry-Heinz, has 'served' for how many years in the Senate? In all that time, exactly what significant legislation has he WRITTEN?

Wow, what a guy. Loser then, loser now.

zzKerry admitted t... (Below threshold)
virgo..:

zz

Kerry admitted to war crimes for one! shot a vc in the back for 2 and dared to run for the presidency as if He was qualified for#3..

kerry rolled over and let t... (Below threshold)
moseby:

kerry rolled over and let the swift boat vets castrate him. This shows that he's not much of a man let alone presidential material. Perfect for MA tho.

LeMano,Do you know... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

LeMano,

Do you know how to go to the gov't website? Because if you do you'll find lots of legislation that Kerry sponsored and/or co-sponsored. That's a right-winged and untrue talking point.

Need the link?

LeMano,I'm the mos... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

LeMano,

I'm the most exciting thing that's happened to this website in a long time. Why else would you all still be posting?

Posted by: moseby at May 30... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Posted by: moseby at May 30, 2006 02:21 PM

Not quite Moseby. I think that the campaign was poorly run and the smears by the Swifties wasn't handled very well, but nontheless, Kerry was right when he said, "Wrong war, wrong time...."

So the answer to my questio... (Below threshold)

So the answer to my question ZZ is you believe the word of one man over 2 dozen. Your partisan slip is showing.

Posted by: The Ugly America... (Below threshold)
ZZ Revolution:

Posted by: The Ugly American at May 30, 2006 08:45 PM

No, I believe ALL the people who were on John Kery's swift boat over the one person who says the opposite.

But you're right about one thing, the two dozen men who say he wasn't or didn't were partison Republicans who made it their duty to get back at him. Even if that included lying. They formed a group called the SBVT commonly known as the swiftboat liars for Bush, and so I absolutely chose to believe the people who were on the boat and the paperwork that I saw online that showed he deserved those medals and his commanders who said he served honorably.

The dozen or so you chose to believe are party hacks. Many of which have also been shown to be liars too.

However, enough of this nonsense anyways. It's 2006 not 1968. What's the Republican plan to get us out of the mess they've created? All they're good for is lies and smears. I'm ready for real leadership and real government FOR the people instead of against the people.

That leadership will include honesty and integrity and leadership who will FIGHT to keep jobs here, food on our table, healthcare for all Americans, and who will stop giving handouts to the rich businesses and their CEO's. I'm ready for people who really care for the living instead of put up a fake front of being compassionate conservatives while the average American is losing their job, their homes, and their lives just because greedy Republicans and their supporting CEO's just value the $$$ instead of human lives.

Soldier, Commander, Sail... (Below threshold)
MikeSC:

Soldier, Commander, Sailor, Airman...I know it means something to you, LCDR J MacKay, but frankly what those titles mean to me is simple. It means anyone--anyone who serves--even if they do not hold my political beliefs deserves respect, kindness, and appreciation for what they have given to our country, perios.

I've noticed you trash Bush. Funny.

Did Bush serve? That has yet to be proven. Records indicate that he never bothered showing up to complete his National Guard Duty.

Provided one ignores pay stubs from the time period.
An honorable discharge from the Guard.
Any evidence of him, you know, going AWOL.

Take away those and, yes, you probably are right. I'm sure you can provide these "reports" that he went AWOL.

Show me the money on that and I'll show him respect. Until then, there is more substantiated evidence that George W. Bush was drunk, AWOL, and used his father's Senatorial influence and money to get him that nice job in the NG that he didn't complete.

You can, of course, provide some evidence to back up the whole "going AWOL" thing. You know, that whole pesky "honorable discharge" is a bit of a sticking point in your story.

And I love that you call O'Neill a liar --- but you buy the story of Bush getting preferential treatment which was championed by a pathological liar.

If you're implying that JK had a criminal history that is slander and libel.

He committed crimes far worse than anything done at Abu Gharib, according to one John Kerry.

. You have absolutely no prosecutorial evidence or even investigations that indicate he was ever indicted for criminal behavior or drunken behavior, for going awol, or for any activity outside the laws of our land.

He met with the N. Vietnamese, illegally. He committed war crimes, according to his own testimony (fortunately, HE had political ties to save his ass).

What you implied was a smear and unsubstantuated innuendo against John Kerry!

Kerry's own words are unsubstantiated --- wait, it was said by Kerry, so yeah, it's unsubstantiated.

GWB also admitted to using cocaine which is against the law, and he admitted to hiding that information prior to 2000 and 2004 to protect his kids from the information that he was an illegal drug user.

Feel free to provide proof of Bush saying that. Bush has refused to even discuss it.

Note how I'm not whining about your slandering Bush?

That has also been documented on tape with GWB's own voice and own words in a confession to a journalist who chose to not release these interviews until after the election.

Again, some proof. Any.

Do you know how to go to the gov't website? Because if you do you'll find lots of legislation that Kerry sponsored and/or co-sponsored. That's a right-winged and untrue talking point.

He obviously hasn't done squat since he didn't run on that, but on his brief military tour 30 years prior.

But you're right about one thing, the two dozen men who say he wasn't or didn't were partison Republicans who made it their duty to get back at him.

And Kerry's "buddies" are more believable? I think not.

They formed a group called the SBVT commonly known as the swiftboat liars for Bush

Amongst the whackjob left, yes. Of course, that same left thinks Bush is a fascist and Hillary is right-wing, so what they know is shaky.

However, enough of this nonsense anyways. It's 2006 not 1968. What's the Republican plan to get us out of the mess they've created? All they're good for is lies and smears. I'm ready for real leadership and real government FOR the people instead of against the people.

Wow, way to take a stand. You're FOR real leadership? Damn, that is gutsy.

You know, since the Dems want power, shouldn't they express something that even remotely resembles a plan?

That leadership will include honesty and integrity and leadership who will FIGHT to keep jobs here

Actually, the last time the Dems had the WH, corporate corruption was at its apex. Scandals so massive that they have never been matched before.

food on our table, healthcare for all Americans, and who will stop giving handouts to the rich businesses and their CEO's.

I could mention that Clinton helped Enron more than anybody in the US ever did. Hardly something that gives me faith in the Dems.

I'm ready for people who really care for the living instead of put up a fake front of being compassionate conservatives while the average American is losing their job, their homes, and their lives just because greedy Republicans and their supporting CEO's just value the $$$ instead of human lives.

Unemployment is at historic lows. But don't let reality slow ya down, Sparky.
-=Mike

Posted by: MikeSC at May 31... (Below threshold)
Retired Republican, Thank God:

Posted by: MikeSC at May 31, 2006 11:20 AM

Point A. Bush served according to you.

As long as you ignore the records that show he was not there and he missed his phsyicals. No big deal. All military personel are allowed to be now shows. It's not just Bush. AWOL is a thing of the 18th century not this one.


Point B. Unemployment is at incredibly low lows.

Almost too good to be true considering the amount of people who are dropped from the statistics because they've been unemployed for so long that they no longer count. Don't let that get in your reality sparky.


Point C. "I could mention that Clinton helped Enron more than anybody in the US ever did. Hardly something that gives me faith in the Dems."

Sure sweety...let's just get out the recent profit statments from enron and the oil companies to see if that crap passes the stink test.

Point D. Clinton and Democratic scandals

Scandals so massive that they have never been matched before. As long as you don't count spying without warrent, torture, secret deals with energy companies behind closed doors, 9-11 committee scuttling, rendition, secret prisons across Europe, dipping in to the treasury dept. to pay for Social Security tours, paid propaganda with a gay guy masquerading as a reporter, Rove, Libby, Cheney, and Bush investigated and (Libby indicted--the VP's assistand as well as the Prsident's assistant!) Naw...nothing like these things are important. Bring back that blue dress again, please!!!

Point E. Now the plan thing...

Go ahead and fall back on the plan thing. The old Republican fall back line because "we've destroyed the country and we need Democats to save our asses thing" I know lots of plans that the majority party has scuttled for the last 2 1/2 years. The plans are of course there but the media and the Republican party doesn't allow Democrats to have any say. But of course you know all that too, right?


---------------------------------------------------


Geez Mike...You've just shown 100% why most people in America now think of you guys as rubberstamping zombies--What's that number again? 24% believe Bush is honest and 29% support Bush and even less than that trust Republicans and believe we're on the right track! You keep on keeping on with that same plan you guys have.

ZZ Revolution and Oncall show the most working brain matter on this whole thread! Great job!


Actually, the enron profits... (Below threshold)
Retired Republican, Thank God:

Actually, the enron profits are sitting nice and sweetly in the RNC's war chest. So since Enron hasn't made a profit since they helped Bush win office, let's just check out their donations to the RNC and see if the RNC returned them to the employees who Enron stole from.




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