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A CNN Reporter On Haditha

Maybe John Murtha should read this and then take a deep breath before continuing to slander U.S. Marines before the Haditha incident has been fully investigated.

It actually took me a while to put all the pieces together -- that I know these guys, the U.S. Marines at the heart of the alleged massacre of Iraqi civilians in Haditha.


I don't know why it didn't register with me until now. It was only after scrolling through the tapes that we shot in Haditha last fall, and I found footage of some of the officers that had been relieved of their command, that it hit me.

I know the Marines that were operating in western al Anbar, from Husayba all the way to Haditha. I went on countless operations in 2005 up and down the Euphrates River Valley. I was pinned on rooftops with them in Ubeydi for hours taking incoming fire, and I've seen them not fire a shot back because they did not have positive identification on a target. (Watch a Marine's anguish over deaths -- 2:12)

I saw their horror when they thought that they finally had identified their target, fired a tank round that went through a wall and into a house filled with civilians. They then rushed to help the wounded -- remarkably no one was killed.

I was with them in Husayba as they went house to house in an area where insurgents would booby-trap doors, or lie in wait behind closed doors with an AK-47, basically on suicide missions, just waiting for the Marines to come through and open fire. There were civilians in the city as well, and the Marines were always keenly aware of that fact. How they didn't fire at shadows, not knowing what was waiting in each house, I don't know. But they didn't.

And I was with them in Haditha, a month before the alleged killings last November of some 24 Iraqi civilians.

Read it all. I know Murtha is not going to stop "bomb throwing" (as Bill O'Reilly referred to it on his show tonight). In fact, it is probably going to get worse before it gets better. Wesley Clark, not to be outdone by Murtha, joined in and defended him tonight on The O'Reilly Factor. When the Haditha report is complete, if the results are as many claim and a massacre did occur, those guilty should be punished to the fullest extent of the law, and then some. In the meantime, especially on Memorial Day weekend, it is inexcusable to rush to judgment in order to take political advantage, and in the process slander an entire group for the actions of a few.

Update: Bruce Kesler has more at Democracy Project.

Update II: Mary Katharine has a good roundup of stories and Sister Toldjah has more.

Update III: John Hawkins makes an excellent point that even if the worst is true, it helps to show that incidents like the one alleged at Haditha, are the exception, not the rule. Read it all.


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Comments (215)

Heavens to Murthatroids can... (Below threshold)
virgo:

Heavens to Murthatroids cant this guy shut His big fat mouth for a while and let the truth be sought out? He is to Iraq what John Kerry was to Viet nam when He got back.

Murtha's voice was so distu... (Below threshold)
snowballs:

Murtha's voice was so disturbing on this - the enthusiastic tone that would convict the military as a whole, all the way to the top by default. Frightening.

About the incident - maybe it was the fault of the Marines in question, maybe it wasn't (or vice versa)...

...but in truly unheroic fashion, it's been stated that the military is guilty until proven innocent, and the women, children, kittens and baby ducks of Iraq innocent no matter what.

If Murtha is correct in his (very early) accusations does that make him any less of a politician?

As an aside, I'm wondering why the locals didn't run to Al-Jazerra with the story first. Just sayin'.

When will FOX news learn th... (Below threshold)
Scrapiron:

When will FOX news learn that millions automatically switch channels when Wesley Clark, the worst general to ever serves makes an appearance. I do every time, like tonight. I hate the whining loser.

Good ole Weasely Clark. You... (Below threshold)
stan25:

Good ole Weasely Clark. You can count on him to back the wrong side of an issue. No wonder he was drummed out of the Army. Hell he did something that was a whole lot worse and it was broadcast on international tv. Yep folks, he is the one that supplied the armored equipment to take out the Branch Davidians. That is how he got the NATO command under Slick Willy. Too bad some Serb did not line him the crosshairs of his scope, we would have one less liberal to contend with.

The locals didn't run to Al... (Below threshold)
Scrapiron:

The locals didn't run to Al-Jazerra right away because it took a couple of months for them to make up the 'big' story. Wonder how much help they got from Murtha, Hanoi John and Clark?

The really beautiful, juicy... (Below threshold)
pgg:

The really beautiful, juicy conclusion to draw from Murtha's incessant bomb-throwing is just this:

If and when any of these Marines is charged and brought to trial, they will each and every one be able to point at John Murtha, and truthfully and credibly argue before their court martial that because of Murtha's irresponsible, self-serving verbal diarrhea, a fair and impartial trial is impossible.

And they will be right.

Each time Murtha, or any of his fellow travelers, opens his mouth, the likelihood of a conviction shrinks.

So speak on, Congressman, and destroy the result you so desire.

Lets not forget the moonbat... (Below threshold)
jpniner:

Lets not forget the moonbat things O'REily said tonight as documented on Newsbusters.org, re: Iraq. that it was an "optional war" and could've been avoided and many other left wing talking points.

Once a final report comes o... (Below threshold)

Once a final report comes out, we may have the real picture. A very real possibility, which I haven't seen in print, is that the civilians were killed by the insurgents and staged to look like the Marines did it. The propaganda and morale effects are devastating, aren't they, if indeed this is what happened? If so, the folks who have allowed themselves to be played like a Stradivarius by these thugs will be willing accomplices to the enemy. If not, and our folks did bad things, the failure to take precaution in public statements before final reports are out is just as irresponsible.

Anybody know how Murtha is ... (Below threshold)
beancounter:

Anybody know how Murtha is doing in his House race? Any chance for him to be defeated?

JP -- I missed O'Reilly's o... (Below threshold)
Lorie Byrd:

JP -- I missed O'Reilly's other segments, but am not surprised to hear what he said. He has been incredibly unfair to the President and the military in his characterization of the war in Iraq. He has gone on many talk shows, like Letterman, the View, etc. and gone on and on about what a terrible disaster Iraq has been. When he starts talking like that, I do the same thing I do when he says the gas companies are all to blame for high gas prices -- tune him out.

I think the red cross or... (Below threshold)
joe oliver:

I think the red cross or u.n. should inevestigate all these type of incidents. The military should not. If my family members kill your family member I will make sure only my family members (the killer's family) does the investigating and is the judge and jury. Just like the military does.
Ridiculous

" Anybody know how Murtha i... (Below threshold)
Karl Ruane:

" Anybody know how Murtha is doing in his House race? Any chance for him to be defeated?"

Sorry to say, with all of Adolf Bush's atrocities and constitutional violations.....there is very little chance that ANY Democratic candidate will be "defeated"...... a VASTLY different scenario than what Republicans face in the upcoming elections, hey ?

As far as what you idiots refer to as "slander".... Americans soldiers are well-known for thier atrocities, from WWII, to Korea, to Vietnam.....and now surfacing here in Iraq....
It is not "slander" to expose wrongdoing and atrocities !

kinda like saddams trial hu... (Below threshold)
jb:

kinda like saddams trial huh?
never got a good reason on why he is being tried by his victums rather than the world court..oh yeah we pulled out from the world court and why was that? i dont recal them cause us trouble. Most have been taken over by liberal though. SOmeone needs to invent an antiliberal spray so we cna slean our media.

Murtha know's the truth. Ge... (Below threshold)
Kenny:

Murtha know's the truth. Generals tell an ex-marine the truth. Your grasping at straws looks disperate and worse (stupid-koolaid drinking)

The war (thanks to this) is an worldwide embarrassment.

You'll lose miserably in November.

That's right I hate that mu... (Below threshold)

That's right I hate that murtha. oh, and clark what's his name. those two are traitor islam-sympathetic terrorists. I support every single death in the name of our presidents foreign policy. Everybody knows that the iraq regime was behind 9/11. your un-patriotic if you don't agree. Saddam is more of a threat than Osama Bin Laden or Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi. We actually don't want to find them. and even if our troops did break under pressure and kill over 2 dozen innocent civilians, they shouldn't be punished for it. and those damn publicly elected politicians should keep their un-patriotic ignorant mouths shut.

K' R' and Kenny-wanna bet w... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

K' R' and Kenny-wanna bet wimps.

Seems a lot of you wish thi... (Below threshold)

Seems a lot of you wish this whole affair could
just be covered up. The real problem is the idiots
who choose to take part in this massacre. They give
the U.S. a rotten image through much of the world.

"The real problem is the id... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

"The real problem is the idiots
who choose to take part in this massacre. They give the U.S. a rotten image through much of the world. "

Don't just blame it on the men that pulled the trigger.....These men were trained in this type of brutality from the day they enter Boot Camp, and is re-enforced on a daily basis by thier superiors. The ability to think on thier own is LONG erased from these uneducated pigs.

The Nazi Gestapo & SS services at their most brutal were NEVER as bad as the American military man !

Looks like the moonbats des... (Below threshold)
UncleZeb:

Looks like the moonbats descended on this blog as a hoarde? No voices of reason there for sure.

As for Murtha he is after the press and wants to be MSM darling. He is a whore, whore I say.

" As for Murtha he is after... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

" As for Murtha he is after the press "

Hmmmm...... Must we bring up "Mission Accomplished" ?

How about the fake "rescue"/media opportunity of Jessica Lynch ? Who's the media whore NOW, bitch ?

"...it is ine... (Below threshold)
Lee:

"...it is inexcusable to rush to judgment in order to take political advantage"

No, that's just politics. What is inexcusable is to cheapen the lives of innocent Iraqis by making political fodder out of this.

And then you drag the genuine heros we honor on Memorial Day into the same ring with these possible murderers -- even if those murderers once honored us with their service to our country?

...all for the sake of political hay on a worthless blog. That's inexecusable.

Possible murderers, Lee?</p... (Below threshold)
bubbafett:

Possible murderers, Lee?

That's just the point. No one involved in Haditha has been convicted of anything yet. But according to the loons on the left your guilty until proven innocent if your a republican or in the military and a verdict of innocent is just another right wing cover-up. Murtha's the one making political fodder with the lives of the Iraqis and the Marines as well as the reputation of his former service.

Who cares if you get an innocent Marine convicted of something he didn't do if it helps a democrat. Its just politics to you. Is that what you lefties are saying? Sure sounds like it to me. You have already convicted these guys without hearing the entire story.

Comparing the American military man to the Gestapo and SS just provides another piece of evidence that the left doesn't study history. That's called ignorance and most likely willful ignorance at that.

Oh, well. No more wrestling with pigs for me. These leftoids convict themselves with their own mouths. SO when are you moving to Canada? Faster, please.

"what a crock" ... (Below threshold)
Marc:

"what a crock"

Don't just blame it on the men that pulled the trigger.....These men were trained in this type of brutality from the day they enter Boot Camp,
And you know this as fact? How, have you attended any of the Services Boot Camps?

That aside, and assuming it were true why havn't there been thousands of similar incidents of this type if there trained as such ruthless killers?

You Sir, or Madame, can go straight to hell.

Well I've tried to make sur... (Below threshold)
kim,:

Well I've tried to make sure that I read all sides of every story but I gotta tell you, you mob scare me. I'm Australian and I recongise that not all soldiers represent our country well, but you are so blinkered to the possibility, blaming lefties, leftoids. GIve me a break...own it, accept the possibility...its not like its never been proven that Americans have not acted ok at any time!!
The way the majority of you are going on it makes me start to consider that more atrocities have been conducted and seen as ok because why your righties, rightoids...what. Mr Howard PLEASE don't let Australians been seen to be supporting this mentality!!!!!!!!!

And while I'm at it:<blockq... (Below threshold)
Marc:

And while I'm at it:

"Hmmmm...... Must we bring up "Mission Accomplished" ?
Ok asshole, since you brought it up. I returned from 8 overseas deployments on various US warships. Each and everyone had banners displayed expressing the very same sentiment, no matter what that mission was.

That banner had absolutely nothing to do with Iraq per se and only signified the ships successfull return to homeport.

What you seething ninnies w... (Below threshold)
Son Of The Godfather:

What you seething ninnies who salivate at the mere prospect of Marines doing horrible deeds fail to recognize is that we certainly do accept the possibility that something went terribly wrong in Haditha. The likelihood, however, based on how other Marines conduct themselves in 99.999% of different scenarios is enough to at least give them the benefit of the doubt while an investigation is ongoing.

I'm with epador, in that the possibility exists of insurgents (basically murderers who are predisposed to do these sort of things) could quite possibly have staged this as a damaging propaganda event.

Is there a chance that a (very) few Marines lost control? Yes.
The only difference between you moonbats and the people who actually live in reality is that we're hoping not, while your lot is practically orgasmic over your predetermination of guilt.

And, to "What a crock!", I'd give my next paycheck to see you call a Marine an "uneducated pig" to his (or her) face, you liberal, moongod-worshipping, keyboard-warrior pansy.

you are all very sick peopl... (Below threshold)
paul:

you are all very sick people.

Well I've tried to... (Below threshold)
Truzenzuzex:
Well I've tried to make sure that I read all sides of every story but I gotta tell you, you mob scare me. I'm Australian and I recongise that not all soldiers represent our country well, but you are so blinkered to the possibility, blaming lefties, leftoids. GIve me a break...own it, accept the possibility...its not like its never been proven that Americans have not acted ok at any time!!

I know it's horrible to imagine, but some people in America would rather wait until they know the whole story before coming to a conclusion, especially when there are so few actual facts known. I am pretty sure Australians feel the same, despite your comments suggesting the alternative.

The actions of Americans at other times have absolutely no bearing on the instant case - unless, that is, your objective is to tar all American soldiers with the actions of a few. We attribute that sort of rampant illogic to the far left, who hate American power and wealth and will sieze on any opportunity to attack it.

The way the majority of you are going on it makes me start to consider that more atrocities have been conducted and seen as ok because why your righties, rightoids...what. Mr Howard PLEASE don't let Australians been seen to be supporting this mentality!!!!!!!!!

I have the feeling that I am trying to reason with the political equivalent of a 12-year old, but let's examine the logic of this paragraph. Not only have you tried and convicted the Marines, but made the additional claim that the mere suggestion there may be another side of the story somehow impugns the reputation of the entire American armed forces. I have no words for the inanity of this position.

Nobody in here has defended the the idea that it is OK for any of our armed forces to massacre people. What has been vigorously defened is the right of people so accused to have their side of the story presented as well as that of their accusers before coming to a judgement, especially in a case like this where very few facts are available to the public. We have also criticized those in a position of power who have merrily pronounced the Marines guilty for the purpose of making a political point at the expense of the entire Marine Corps. Is that what you are trying to defend - the right to prejudge the case for political impact?

Lorie we need a cleanup on ... (Below threshold)
Luke:

Lorie we need a cleanup on whatever aisle this is we're posting.

I have stepped in troll poop and it stinks to high heavens. Sort of reminds you of the old 60's era hippies. USA bad, military bad, soap bad.

Lee: What is in... (Below threshold)
MikeB:

Lee:

What is inexcusable is to cheapen the lives of innocent Iraqis by making political fodder out of this.

I'm glad to see you condeming Murtha and friends for doing this.

- MikeB

Murtha doesn't really care ... (Below threshold)
Steve L.:

Murtha doesn't really care about the individual Marines involved; he only cares about using this incident (whatever it is) to tar and feather the President and his administration. If this was really about doing the right thing, he would wait until all the facts were known before making a statement. Now, even if it is proven that the Marines did nothing wrong, Murtha is in perfect position to claim that there is a cover-up.

I also want to say that not one single person here has in any way said that the Marines didn't do what they have been accused of doing. In every case, people have spcifically said that punishment should be meted out *if* the facts prove that punishment is warranted. Anyone trying to spin that into anything else is a moron.

Our society has shifted from a presumption of innocence to a presumption of guilt. Just look at the CBS/TANG Memo scandal. In an interview, Mary Mapes as much as said that it was not her responsiblity to prove that an accusation was true, that it was others' responsibility to prove otherwise. The Duke lacrosse team has been convicted in the court of public opinion over an incident that may or may not have happened. Players that were not involved (assuming there was a crime committed) have been punished even though they did nothing wrong.

And now, the entire Marine Corps and military in general is being treated as monsters because of something that may or may not have happened. And, it's all because one Congressman wanted to see his name in print.

What's the big deal? Let's ... (Below threshold)
groucho:

What's the big deal? Let's cut these guys some slack. After all, they were probably just blowing off a little steam after a hard day in the desert, you know, like those wacky Abu Graib guards. Just a harmless prank.

There are a lot of signs that, unfortunately, suggest this incident may be true. To suggest that there are those who are "orgiastic" about this possibility is presumptious at best and, at worst, just another baseless generalization about those with a different point of view.

I don't know which is worse, the alleged killing or the fact that the Chimp-in-Chief didn't know about it until now.

Looks like this thread need... (Below threshold)
cyr:

Looks like this thread needs de-lousing. The KosKidz seem to have infested it.

"That aside, and assuming i... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

"That aside, and assuming it were true why havn't there been thousands of similar incidents of this type if there trained as such ruthless killers? "

There HAS, Moron ! Only, in MOST cases, they rarely see the light of day ! Only the most HORRIFIC cases do the public get to see ! Like the drunken driver, for every one who is caught, there are hundreds more that drive drunk undetected. It's a statistical CERTAINTY !

You sir...can go pack it in yer butt !

Heh, this latest Bush and C... (Below threshold)
RedStateLib:

Heh, this latest Bush and Co. fiasco has you bonehead righties squirming in your seats. Poor Bush ass kissers. It's got to be rough being the "backwash" of the good ol' U.S.A.

And while I am at it... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

And while I am at it :

"Ok asshole, since you brought it up. I returned from 8 overseas deployments on various US warships. Each and everyone had banners displayed expressing the very same sentiment, no matter what that mission was.

That banner had absolutely nothing to do with Iraq per se and only signified the ships successfull return to homeport. "

Well, first of all, son.......It is your contention that the ship that played host for Bush's "Media opportunity" had returned to "home port" ? I seem to recall that this ship was out in the Persion Gulf....That is now "Home Port" to the fleet of the United States ?

C'mon, moron ! Media opportunity....plain & simple ! (a la George ! )


The CNN reporter seems to e... (Below threshold)

The CNN reporter seems to exonerate the Marines. Left is looking for a My Lai

Don't really know what to make of this

"The CNN reporter seems to ... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

"The CNN reporter seems to exonerate the Marines. Left is looking for a My Lai

Don't really know what to make of this "

How do you infer that this CNN "exonerates" the Marines ? Cuz she was embedded with the same soldiers before this latest atrocity by the American military and noticed no abberant behavior in now WAY "exonorates" these pig's behavior ! People DO snap, like that doctor who threw his children off a 15 story balcony in Florida recently.....
Cuz he exhibited no prior "abberant behavior", that in no WAY...ahem...."exonorates" throwing his children from that balcony !

There HAS, Moron !... (Below threshold)
Marc:
There HAS, Moron ! Only, in MOST cases, they rarely see the light of day ! Only the most HORRIFIC cases do the public get to see !
Then how do YOU know they exist? They "rarely see the light of day" to hear you tell it?
Well, first of all, son.......It is your contention that the ship that played host for Bush's "Media opportunity" had returned to "home port" ? I seem to recall that this ship was out in the Persion Gulf....That is now "Home Port" to the fleet of the United States ?
You're memory matches your IQ, near zero. The U.S.S. Abraham Lincoln was just off the off the California coast when that "media opportunity occured.

"C'mon, moron ! (a la What a crock ! )"

Wow. I am usually extremel... (Below threshold)
Lorie Byrd:

Wow. I am usually extremely liberal when it comes to comments and rarely ever delete any, but I just deleted one from this thread and probably should have zapped a few others, as well, for language alone. Who let the moonbats in? Just kidding. All are welcome to comment here as long as they display some minimum level of civility and decorum. I still may need to delete some comments above, but will let them stand for now.

I don't really understand those accusing us who want to wait until the investigation is over before convicting the entire U.S. Marine Corp. of trying to sweep anything under the rug or deny anything. I just say let's deal with the facts, not the rantings of some blowhard politician who has a heck of a lot of reasons to want the mission in Iraq to fail. Murtha has convicted these Marines without a trial or even a full investigation. He has declared them guilty of "cold blooded" murder. For those of you who are convinced that the Marines in Haditha snapped, which may well be the case, that is not what "cold blooded" means. So maybe you all should get on the same page before defending John Murtha and his slap at the entire military. Do you really believe everyone in uniform is a crazed killer?

As I said in the post, if a massacre did occur, which much evidence points to, those responsible should be punished to the full extent of the law. I would assume this would include the death penalty, but don't know. I would hope it would.

So, suddenly you DeceptiCon... (Below threshold)
Rambam:

So, suddenly you DeceptiCons like the MSM over a war veteran. The lightning-quick recalibrations re "who's telling the truth we like" of the DeceptiCon movement never ceases to amaze me.

what a crock:>The Na... (Below threshold)
moonie:

what a crock:
>The Nazi Gestapo & SS services at their most >brutal >were NEVER as bad as the American >military man !

absolute idiocy, crock. Do not represent the left. You are an embarassment.

A reminder of the facts from the holocaust:

@800,000 Roma killed
@ 5 million Poles
@ 6 million Jews (the latter two numbers are not mutually exclusive)

Total killed in holocaust: between 9 and 20 million.


"The Holocaust was carried out without any reprieve even for children or babies, and victims were often tortured before being killed. Nazis carried out deadly medical experiments on prisoners, including children.

"The guards in the concentration camps carried out beatings and acts of torture on a daily basis. For example, some inmates were suspended from poles by ropes tied to their hands behind their backs so that their shoulder joints were pulled out of their sockets. Women were forced into brothels for the SS guards. Russian prisoners of war were used for experiments such as being immersed in ice water or being put into pressure chambers in which air was evacuated to see how long they would survive as a means to better protect German airmen."

"Several hundred thousand mentally and physically disabled people also were exterminated. "

-Wikipedia

aww comeon. you didn't have... (Below threshold)
moonie:

aww comeon. you didn't have to delete mine. it was a work of art! and not pointed at any person in particular (unlike some of the above). you conservatives have no sense of humor. its all sturm and drang for you.

I fail to see one poster in... (Below threshold)

I fail to see one poster in this thread that has already convicted the Marines in their minds (and in their posts) to address the irresponsibility of said posts/public statements/mediawhoring.

Which is what the original post in this thread was attempting to highlight by showing the embedded reporter's statement.

The reporter's statement is helpful, however. While US actions in this war are not equivalents of (to give a recent example) Serb genocide directed against Muslims, the possibility that a US military action degenerated into horror is valid. The statement shows that the training and behaviors of the Marines involved under fire and stress is exemplary.

This makes the possibility seem much less likely (though not impossible) than certain posters and media whores who have irresponsibly demeaned our servicemen and country seem to believe.

A good example of the oft forgotten advice: DNFTT [do not feed the trolls].

" You're memory matches you... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

" You're memory matches your IQ, near zero. The U.S.S. Abraham Lincoln was just off the off the California coast when that "media opportunity occured. "

Alright clown.....so you got ONE fact straight.... be still my heart !

Now.....show me all those other "multitudes" of ships that proudly display a "mission accomplished" banner that you so loudly proclaim.........got photos of all those other ships with the same banner over the past 4 years ? Where's THEIR "media opp" ? ? ? SHow me that photo......just ONE !

absolute idiocy, crock. Do ... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

absolute idiocy, crock. Do not represent the left. You are an embarassment.

A reminder of the facts from the holocaust:

@800,000 Roma killed
@ 5 million Poles
@ 6 million Jews (the latter two numbers are not mutually exclusive)

Total killed in holocaust: between 9 and 20 million.

Really ? Now we are going to dig into history to point at "atrocities" ? Let's see here....the extermination of the American Indian by the American military (which was long PRIOR to the nazis) whose numbers far exceed those of the Nazis...Don't even get me STARTED on the atrocities during the civil war !

Again...mindless brutality FAR exceeding that of the Nazis !

An inevitable consequence o... (Below threshold)

An inevitable consequence of war is the death of innocents. In fact, it is my belief that wars should be geared toward the destruction of any and all military objectives, AND the civilian infrastructure that allowed it's survival, instead of the sterile style of fighting we see today. It is of course a cliche now, but it is indeed true: The more horrible a war, the less likely a nation will be willing to risk it. Of course reality and human nature will never allow this, and such brutality is unacceptable, but that is the side from which I approach this topic.

(DISCLAIMER: ALL CRIMES ARE ALLEGED AT THIS POINT, AS SUCH THIS IS A WHAT IF POST)

If American marines did indeed massacre 24 civilians in Haditha, it is inexcusable.

Hypocritical of me? Not really. Hear me out: We have engaged in this war with the mission of protecting innocents and establishing stability within the nation. The first bomb was dropped with this goal in mind, and the last shot that will be fired should be to promote this ideal. You see, it is NOT UP TO ME to decide how I am going to fight the war, and it sure as fuck wasn't up to 14 marines to go on a revenge motivated killing spree.

It is counterproductive to the mission, and undermines the military at the CORE. We entrust our men and women to go forth and bring hellfire and brimstone to those we consider most deserving, but we, as CITIZENS, are in control. These 14 decided to disregard over 200 years of military tradition, and wrote their own mission plan. The MOMENT they did that, they are no longer combatants. They are murderers, raiders, and have forfeited the title of "Marine".

Of course the interesting part of this, much like Abu Gharib, this story was not "broken" by anyone. There was no massive public condemnation that forced the warmachine to act. It was the MILITARY ITSELF that took it upon itself to rectify the flaw as fast as possible. Remember that tiny fact when this explodes across your TV screens, and everyone is yelping about forcing the great satan to it's knees. As of right now, the military is more concerned over this issue than the media or the Politicians. Because WE know what is at stake and the burden of our responsibilities. We know that we are merely an arm of the people. Sometimes a few forget... and we deal with it.


Sidenote:

Any words on wether or not attacks have INCREASED or DECREASED in Haditha since the alledged incident?

Cowboy crock. Get off the e... (Below threshold)
moonie:

Cowboy crock. Get off the ego horse for a while. Let some of these bushies ride for a while.

the obvious interpretation of your present tensed "american military man" does not include U.S. Civil War soldiers, nor miliary men fighting Native Americans. It's talking about here and now, in Iraq and Afganistan.

We can talk about the past all we want. But a lot of that past is irrelevant. What is relevant is now, what is going on in Iraq and Afghanistan now, now, now.

I've got reason to believe ... (Below threshold)
The Listkeeper:

I've got reason to believe that What A Crock! is not only a liar, but a child molester and significant other beater as well.

I might do that, dependent ... (Below threshold)
Marc:

I might do that, dependent on you giving a legit answer to my question What a crock.

If the public only sees the "HORRIFIC cases" (as opposed to everyday run of the mill killings by the Marines I assume) and stories of ruthless killers are never published just how do you know for fact that more have happened by these so called "uneducated pigs."

" Of course the interesting... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

" Of course the interesting part of this, much like Abu Gharib, this story was not "broken" by anyone. There was no massive public condemnation that forced the warmachine to act. It was the MILITARY ITSELF that took it upon itself to rectify the flaw as fast as possible."

WHAT ? Are you KIDDING me ? The upper echelons of the Marines strove to HIDE this atrocity ! And yes, this story WAS "broken" by a media source !
TIME magazine broke the story !
The Marine brass has been saying for MONTHS that thes civilians were caught up in the blast, and then.....were caught up in the firefight AFTER the blast......

" the obvious interpretatio... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

" the obvious interpretation of your present tensed "american military man" does not include U.S. Civil War soldiers, nor miliary men fighting Native Americans. It's talking about here and now, in Iraq and Afganistan. "

Wait a minute....somebody spouted a crock of shit about how bad the Nazis were......in response to my statement that the American military man was a mindless pig whose brutality FAR exceeded that of the Nazi SS & Gestapo.....
The dude challenged my statement, and I CORRECTED him/her on it ! PERIOD !

Why are we in Iraq, again? ... (Below threshold)
Peter:

Why are we in Iraq, again? How does stationing an army of occupation in the middle of a hostile population further American interests?

Every time our soldiers kill a civilian, or run someone off the road, or shell someone's house or kill someone's dog, they create ten more radical muslims eager to get revenge on us. How does that help America?

Even worse, Afghanistan is now coming unglued, and reverting to being a drug kingdom. President Bush paid one gang of warlords to chase another gang of warlords into the hills. He didn't capture Bin Laden, but let him escape. Then the President left the job undone and ordered a Pearl Harbor style sneak attack on a country that posed us no threat.

And now we're stuck in Iraq, with even right wing commentators noting that we have no possibility of success. President Bush is out of ideas. We're grinding up an army trying to solve an intractable political problem, and the only things that President Bush knows how to do, make things worse.

A withdrawal to regional bases, as Murtha advocates, is pretty much inevitable eventually. So why wait?

Just to address what a croc... (Below threshold)
majchuck:

Just to address what a crock's uneducated comments regarding what Marines are trained to do, we are taught to fight the enemy, kill them if necessary and capture if possible. We are not uneducated ignorant pigs as he/she states. We take our duties amd missions very seriously and living up to the honor of a U.S. Marine is always a huge responsibility. To see so many people willing to denigrate the service of such a fine group of military men and women over a REPORT of a few is really disheartening.

We don't do what we do for glory, money, fame or respect. We do it for love of country, to carry on proud family traditions or start new ones. Contrary to popular liberal belief, we are not all poor people looking for a paycheck. As a Marine that was enlisted and is now an officer, and an unemployment rate below 5%, I do not NEED to stay in the military. I view our mission as something worthy to be a part of. I also see our mission as necessary as history will show one day.

I know that there are some, quite a few actually, who have no use for the military, even though they do enjoy all of the freedoms that we have fought and died for over the last 200+ years. I do not ask that you like/love the military but at least respect the men and women who make the sacrifices on behalf of our nation.

Yes, Time magazine broke th... (Below threshold)
moonie:

Yes, Time magazine broke this story. It was only afterwards that a formal investigation began. But that does not immediately imply a cover-up, since it is also plausible that the U.S. military did not know prior to the Times publication that such an event may have occured. However, that investigation concludes that the civilians were killed in a firefight between USAian soldiers and insurgents, and now there is a new criminal investigation the results of which will be out in a few days. The second investigation suggests a coverup, but that is speculation. We should probably wait for it before jumping up and down like monkeys over it.

Still, the military is pretty good at letting their own off the hook. i expect 1 or 2 to get life, 1 or 2 honorable discharge, a few to get a new post in some post Abu G. prison interrogation camp.

" If the public only sees t... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

" If the public only sees the "HORRIFIC cases" (as opposed to everyday run of the mill killings by the Marines I assume) and stories of ruthless killers are never published just how do you know for fact that more have happened by these so called "uneducated pigs." "

Hmmmm....you asked for it, you GOT it ! My 12 year old Aunt was RAPED by this "American Military Man" in post-war Germany......Hmmmm ....never published NOR punished ! THAT'S how I "know for a fact that more have happened by these so-called 'Uneducated pigs'" !

"What a crock"They... (Below threshold)

"What a crock"

They also came under small arms fire, we're told by other sources than TIME and John Murtha (D).

We can now plainly see that the "troop supporting" left is practically orgasming at the thought of shoving a treasonous boot up the Marines' collective backsides. Go ahead - show the American people that oh-so-fabled left-wing "patriotism" by throwing the whole military under the bus for the actions of a few individuals who will no doubt be paying for crimes (if they were committed).

While we are using leftist logic, we might as well convict every black or hispanic person who has killed an innocent person in the ghettos of America as bloodthirsty murderers, because they ALL do it. Right? Is that your logic? If not, why apply a differnt logical standard to a different group of people? Of course, it makes absolutely no sense, nor does your line of accusation. To you, that makes no difference.

Typical unthinking, knee-jerk reactionary left wing politics. Utterly pathetic.

Murtha's official statement... (Below threshold)
WJS:

Murtha's official statement on Haditha:

Murtha Statement on Haditha Incident

I am a Vietnam combat veteran. I understand full well the type of situation those Marines were in. These are allegations. I believe that the case should and will be fully investigated and that the Marines involved will be treated fairly by the military justice system.

I talk to commanders and soldiers all the time about the circumstances they face in Iraq. I talk to not only the brass at the Pentagon, but to the officers in the field and the soldiers I see every week at Bethesda and Walter Reed medical centers with their arms and legs blown off by IEDs. I am acutely aware of the type of situation those Marines were in. Our soldiers are incredibly brave and are fighting in an extremely difficult combat environment with extremely difficult rules of engagement. They perform heroically and have been for going on four years now, with very few exceptions. As a nation, we can be extremely proud of the conduct of our US military.

As I've said, I understand the fog of war and the confusion of battle. But we are a nation of laws, including the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice). The United States of America has never condoned, nor should it ever condone, indiscriminate, deliberate killing of civilians. When we do that, we become no better than the enemy we are trying to eradicate.

Further, to ignore this incident, which happened six months ago and has now been publicized around the world, is to invite criticism that the United States does not practice what it preaches. That will severely undermine our goals of promoting democracy, as did the Abu Ghraib scandal. Again, the United States of America does not condone the deliberate killing of innocent civilians.

...Um, can someone here explain why you have a problem with this???

" They also came under smal... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

" They also came under small arms fire, we're told by other sources than TIME and John Murtha (D). "

They WERE ? QUOTE them ! I'm afraid you are confusing the cover story the Marines released than from the actual FACTS of the matter !

"The first account of the killings there was a false or erroneous statement issued the next day, Nov. 20, by a U.S. Marine spokesman from a Marine base in Ramadi: "A U.S. Marine and 15 civilians were killed yesterday from the blast of a roadside bomb in Haditha. Immediately following the bombing, gunmen attacked the convoy with small-arms fire. Iraqi Army soldiers and Marines returned fire, killing eight insurgents and wounding another."

Now, the REAL story !

"In the first minutes after the shock of the blast, residents said, silence reigned on the street of walled courtyards, brick homes and tiny palm groves. Marines appeared stunned, or purposeful, as they moved around the burning Humvee, witnesses said.

Then one of the Marines took charge, shouting, said Mr. Fahmi, who was watching from his roof. Mr. Fahmi said he saw the shouting Marine direct other Marines into the house closest to the blast, about 50 yards away.

It was the home of Abdul Hamid Hassan Ali, 76. Although he had used a wheelchair since diabetes forced a leg amputation years ago, Mr. Ali was always one of the first on his block to go out every morning, scattering scraps for his chickens and hosing the dust of the arid western town from his driveway, neighbors said.

In the house with Mr. Ali and his 66-year-old wife, Khamisa Tuma Ali, were three middle-aged men of their family, at least one daughter-in-law and four children -- 4-year-old Abdullah, 8-year-old Iman, 5-year-old Abdul Rahman and 2-month-old Asia.

Marines entered shooting, witnesses recalled. Most of the shots -- in Mr. Ali's house and two others -- were fired at such close range that they went through the bodies of the family members and plowed into walls or the floor, doctors at Haditha's hospital said."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06147/693671-84.stm


"Wait a minute....somebody ... (Below threshold)
moonie:

"Wait a minute....somebody spouted a crock of shit about how bad the Nazis were......in response to my statement that the American military man was a mindless pig whose brutality FAR exceeded that of the Nazi SS & Gestapo.....
The dude challenged my statement, and I CORRECTED him/her on it ! PERIOD "

No. You brought no facts to bear. You demonstrated nothing. Specifically, you have not come even close to demonstrating the object of your pig-headed rants. I simply acknowledged that Native American and US history is a brutal one. I am amply familiar with this history; my profession does not allow me to ignore it.

And maybe you should think ... (Below threshold)
zen_less:

And maybe you should think twice before making arguments of little relevance. So this reporter never say anyone fire back? I lived in New York City 17 years and never saw a crime being committed. Does this mean they didn't happen? Of course not. The "I know our troops, our troops wouldn't do something like that" is exactly the same argument that was made about My Lai.

I agree with every word he ... (Below threshold)
jan van flac:

I agree with every word he (Murtha) said, and he has every right to
be critical, as a 30+ year combat veteran.

This was (if true, but the military seems to believe it is) a horrific incident but all too predictable in war, especially a war which lacks a clear moral purpose and one in which we don't even know who the enemy really is.

Can anyone out there tell me who the enemy is? don't tell me "the Terrorists" either. That wont cut it any more.

As with the reaction to "Ti... (Below threshold)
astigafa:

As with the reaction to "Tiger Force," the people who put their flag before their God will just deny that any American in uniform could ever do a bad thing in any way, or if they did, they were forced to it by Liberal Democrats dressed as Iraqi insurgents, and that eyewitness testimony to the contrary will either be lies, damned lies or liberalspeak.

Boys and girls, when I was in the navy in the '70s, some guys sat around the line shack one or twice a week and talked about how they would like to rape some young chick. Tell me they didn't.

And one frequently heard about how all the troubles of the United States and the world could be solved by killing off persons of color in that particular region. Tell me they didn't do that.

I got on a bus to AFEES to be processed for my enlistment. Three guys sat in the back of the bus with me and talked about where they were going, what they would do: one Marine and two Army recruits. They talked about shooting people and how much they'd been wanting to just take a gun and DO IT. Tell me they didn't do that.

And they concluded that the most fun they could possibly have would be to shoot n*****s. Tell me they didn't do that.

We can be thankful that at... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

We can be thankful that at least our Commander-in chief was made aware of this issue by the press in this case, by the the reports of Time. Asked when Bush was first briefed about the events in Haditha, an insurgent stronghold in western Iraq, Snow replied Tuesday: "When a Time reporter first made the call." Iraq was to be the issue that Bush said he was to devote the rest of his term to, but why I get the impression that he still functions out of bubble and clearly doesn't want to receive bad news, ( in this case from the Pentagon) or glance at the the internet, which has been bubbling with this story, for many weeks ..

The KosKidz seem to have... (Below threshold)
scsiwuzzy:

The KosKidz seem to have infested it.

I dunno... I smell a sock puppet or three.

The UCMJ means nothing to y... (Below threshold)
Bruce:

The UCMJ means nothing to you people. You disgust me.

The fact that these soldier... (Below threshold)
propensity:

The fact that these soldiers were honorable, well-trained, well-intentioned soldiers is Murtha's point.

Murtha is making a case...a case that you don't buy, but a legitimate outlook that deserves better than your attacks on his character. The case goes like this:

The war is an extraordinary burden on the military. The duration and intensity are monopolizing resources, straining logistics and wreaking havoc on the all volunteer force.

Okay, wars are burdensome, so what, you ask? The negative impact on the military demands a reasonable expectation of a positve result. He sees none. The insurgency is gaining momentum, sectarian violence is on the rise, infrastructure remains a mess. Given that we are exerting so much effort, why don't we have better results?

Murtha (and many others) conclude that "the occupation" itself is fueling the insurgency. American military presence is resented and acts as lightening rod for Muslim extremism. Ramadi offers an excellent example: anyone caught so much as meeting with Amercans is targeted for execution. This is not just true for the Sunni insurgency, but holds true for the Shiites as well. Witness Moqtada al Sadr.

For Murtha, this represents the ultimate nightmare for the American soldier who is making incredible sacrifices that result in hatred rather than gratitude...and no end in sight.

Haditha illustrates and symbolizes what we are doing to our soldiers and to Murtha's beloved Corps. It's improtant to discuss this now rather than waiting for courts marshall because tens of thousands of our frontline combat troops are facing exactly the same situation that the marines in Haditha faced. After repeated deployments and watching their comrades blown up, how will they react? Murtha knows how they will react because he is one of them. He is not demonizing the Haditha marines; he is trying to save honorable soldiers from suffering their fall from grace.

"The UCMJ means nothing to ... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

"The UCMJ means nothing to you people. You disgust me. "

That book has about as much relevance to the average American military man as the bible has to an evangelist.....Quote it when convenient, ignore it when it's not !

Can anyone out there tell m... (Below threshold)

Can anyone out there tell me who the enemy is?
- Crab people.

I for one want to know when... (Below threshold)
The Listkeeper:

I for one want to know when What A Crock! is going to quit molesting children and beating its significant other.

"I for one want to know whe... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

"I for one want to know when What A Crock! is going to quit molesting children and beating its significant other."

That's an easy way to evade and distract from the truth....Don't like the facts, insult & bad mouth the critic....

Stand up, son...give your brain a rest !

What truth? That you're a l... (Below threshold)
The Listkeeper:

What truth? That you're a liar, a child molester and a spouse beater? Those are the only truths we're getting any indication of from you.

" What truth? That you're a... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

" What truth? That you're a liar, a child molester and a spouse beater? Those are the only truths we're getting any indication of from you. "

You'll notice....for every "truth" I spouted...I included supporting links......

Where's YOURS, scumbag ?

thanks, propensity...spot o... (Below threshold)
jan van flac:

thanks, propensity...spot on. And many predicted this back in 2002. But people never learn.

Here is a link<a hre... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Here is a link
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/blog/2006/05/dont_our_marines_deserve_the_b.html

The liberal left is truly despicable. THis is an example of their utter hypocrisy and corruption. Howard Dean and the dems are willing to give Osama Bin Laden the benefit of the doubt. But when it comes to our men in uniform, they are willing to condemn before the investigation is completed.

The left seems to make every effort to condemn to US military whenever they can while giving every benefit of the doubt to the terrorists and the enemies of America. I do wonder who is the real enemy of the left.

A link to a BLOG is your id... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

A link to a BLOG is your idea of "evidence" and "facts" ? ? ? ?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA ! ! ! ! !

OMFG !

A link to a BLOG is your id... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

A link to a BLOG is your idea of "evidence" and "facts" ? ? ? ?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA ! ! ! ! !

OMFG !

What are you non-lying sour... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

What are you non-lying sources? NYT, CNN, CBS, CBS, ABC .... have all been caught lying before?

Still you cannot deny the FACT that the left is willing to give Bin Laden the benefit of the doubt while doing their utmost to condemn the marines before the investigation is completed.

Do you want to deny that?

Again, the liberal left is ... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Again, the liberal left is truly despicable because they don't give the men in uniform the same treatment they would have given the terrorists.

That 's the fact.

Why is anyone upset at the ... (Below threshold)
moseby:

Why is anyone upset at the death of any muslim maggot? The world will be a better place with every last muslim dead and rotting in the sun. As for murtha...hopefully he'll get so worked up that a major blood vessel in his dopey fat head will burst.

The left is not upset at th... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

The left is not upset at the death of the Iraqui people at all. In fact, they even wish for more Iraqui deaths so that they can attack Bush and the US military. They would rather have Saddam Hussein in power.

They simply used the opportunity to attack the US military and our effort in Iraq. That 's why they are truly despicable. The left was silent and even complicit during the cold war when the communists murdered hundreds of millions of people. They are quite predictable.

There are some truly unbeli... (Below threshold)
jschultz:

There are some truly unbelievable and scary things written here by both leftists and rightists.

First off, the main investigation into Haditha is just about complete and the investigating officers are putting the final polish on their findings. We know this because the military is already warning law makers to brace for the fallout, the white house has already vowed to reveal all of the findings and people with inside pull, like Murtha, are talking about what the investigators have already discovered.

As such, all the comments about "let's wait until the investigation is complete" are basically bullcrap as it is effectively over at this point. Therefore, all the slandering of Murtha as a turncoat / coward / slime / traitor / ad nauseum is also bullcrap. Why? Because he is simply giving us a preview of the findings to which he has early access AND he is doing it solely for the purpose of showing how much stress the military is still under over there and not to deride our servicemen. The worst thing he said was the killings were done in "cold blood," which, from what we know at this point, seems truthful and accurate, as we have seen story after story where the military has said "this was a bad incident."

IF the investigation says nothing bad happened, THEN you can all burn Murtha to the ground for unfairly impugning those marines' service. Until that time, all of the currently available evidence indicates that what happened at Haditha was an atrocity committed by US marines. The fantasy that I read several times above about how this might have been staged by insurgents is just pure and utter lunacy!!! How can you even consider this as likely given all of the hints we have been given by those with access to the investigation?!!! You guys are going nuts in your attempt to deny reality and the fact that US military servicemen are in fact imperfect human beings and not the demi-gods you make them out to be.

On top of this, all of the rightists blame Murtha for speaking out on the Iraq issue in general. This is pure madness! Murtha was always a low flyer, with a lot of pull and that was because he got a lot of work done wrt the military behind the scenes. In the Gulf War, Murtha was Bush's point man in the democratic house to sell the dems on the war. In return he was given access to the executive to voice his opinions and influence policy. The resultant outcome was a war that everyone bought into and Murtha was solidly on the side of the Pres. What changed? Bush the younger completely shut this man out and ignored anything he had to say. Murtha was left with no choice but to make a big splash to have any effect. This man is doing his job, which is to represent his constituents and to try and affect US policy. Bush shut down his low flying channel to affect policy and now he has to deal with the result of his poor decision -- a strong anti-war public voice with serious military credentials. Too bad, so sad -- maybe he'll actually consult others in the future rather than just shutting everyone out.

First off, the main investi... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

First off, the main investigation into Haditha is just about complete and the investigating officers are putting the final polish on their findings. We know this because the military is already warning law makers to brace for the fallout, the white house has already vowed to reveal all of the findings and people with inside pull, like Murtha, are talking about what the investigators have already discovered.
---------------------------------------------------
Again, Murtha is simply taking advantage of the confidential information that the military investigation shared with Congress to score cheap political points (accusing the troops of killing in cold blood). Why can't he wait and let the military announce the investigation results? He is simply a disgrace. He is just another example of the long list of the Dems like Durbin (US military is like Nazi or Polpot).

Why can't he wait? Murtha is not the only one briefed on this investigation. The fact that the US military initiated the investigation and briefed Congress on it speak highly of the US military.

The liberal left is truly despicable in taking every opportunity to smear the US military while providing the cover for the terrorists and other enemies of America.

It is interesting that the liberals cannot be even honest enough to admit what they really believe when they come out defending Murtha. Again, the liberals are so predictable: they are pretending to be "objective" and cannot be honest enought to tell us openly what they really believe in.

BTW, the US military is imp... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

BTW, the US military is imperfect. THat 's why we had disgraceful people like Kerry, Murtha ... in the military. Overall as an institution, the current US military is probably one of the best if not the best.

The same arg the left has been using during the cold war. Another example, The US is not perfect by any standard, yet it is the best country overall on earth right now.

jschultz: "IF the investiga... (Below threshold)
JannyMae:

jschultz: "IF the investigation says nothing bad happened, THEN you can all burn Murtha to the ground for unfairly impugning those marines' service"

Sorry, schultzie, I can burn Murtha now for convicting these Marines of, "cold-blooded murder," in the public square, before the evidence is evaluated. Even if the Marines turn out to be guilty, he was still wrong to shoot off his big mouth to score cheap political points.

You know things are bad whe... (Below threshold)
shingles:

You know things are bad when it becomes impossible to tell who, on either the right or left, are REAL and who are PARODIES.

This thread is like high comedy.

The captain had a post abou... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

The captain had a post about how the military initiated the investigation due to the discrepancy between the report and the evidence. This should speak highly of the military as an institution. The left simply want to smear with Murtha as a point man. This is a disgrace and another example of the moral corruption of the left. I wonder how people can still support the Dem party and the left in genral today.

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/007097.php

jschultz makes great sense.... (Below threshold)
pswiderski:

jschultz makes great sense. Murtha has hge support in the military and he has yet to be wrong. He wouldn't say what he has said unless he knew (KNEW) the facts - he's closely loyal to the military, given his roots, and would NEVER turn on them unless he was certain he was right. In fact, to date, whenever Murtha has spoken up, he's been dead-on accurate. There's a bunch of people who don't want to hear from Murtha - and that's too bad because his track record regarding honest facts and accurate analysis is leagues away from the absolute nonsense spewing out of this Administration.

JannyMae: Sorry, schultzie,... (Below threshold)
jschultz:

JannyMae: Sorry, schultzie, I can burn Murtha now for convicting these Marines of, "cold-blooded murder," in the public square, before the evidence is evaluated. Even if the Marines turn out to be guilty, he was still wrong to shoot off his big mouth to score cheap political points.

If he is fairly representing the investigations findings, which I believe he is as his comments jive with all the other hints so far, then I think he has done nothing wrong. In fact, he has simply given us information that he is privy to early, which is a positive in my book.

What is so wrong with that? Having more truthful information available to the public is almost always better. Yes, he used this incident as an example of the fact that our military is still under significant strain over there. That is also true, is it not? The fact that he is trying to affect public policy to encourage a pull down in Iraq -- well it is basically his job to influence public policy as a congressional representative. The fact that another atrocity, with an attendant cover up of some sort, occurred at this time is not his fault and he should be using it to highlight his policy proposals that he believes would remedy such incidents in the future.

I guess I just don't understand all the vitriol aimed at Murtha for doing his job as effectively as he can while telling the truth. That is why I said so long as he is truthful why are you attacking him personally? If it turns out he horribly misrepresented the findings that isn't going to affect the legal outcome regardless and it will really soil his credibility moving forward (which is another reason why I'm pretty sure he is telling us the truth).

If the investigation did no... (Below threshold)

If the investigation did not start until the Times report, then all those who passed up the chance to investigate, while in posession of justifiably suspicious info, should be punished if found guilty.

Now the question becomes WH... (Below threshold)

Now the question becomes WHEN did the times "break" the story?

WASHINGTON, May 30 -- A military investigator uncovered evidence in February and March that contradicted repeated claims by marines that Iraqi civilians killed in Haditha last November were victims of a roadside bomb, according to a senior military official in Iraq.

jschultz:<blockquote... (Below threshold)
Truzenzuzex:

jschultz:

Because he is simply giving us a preview of the findings to which he has early access AND he is doing it solely for the purpose of showing how much stress the military is still under over there and not to deride our servicemen. The worst thing he said was the killings were done in "cold blood," which, from what we know at this point, seems truthful and accurate, as we have seen story after story where the military has said "this was a bad incident."

Your argument would be fine if Murtha were not a Democrat Congressman repeatedly critical of the administration's handling of the war. He has deliberately attempted to spin the facts into an indictment not of the people involved, but of the conduct of the war itself:

Murtha, a former Marine who has criticized the Bush administration's conduct of the war, repeated his view that the war cannot be won militarily and needs political solutions, which he said were damaged by such incidents involving the U.S.

It takes no brains whatsoever to suggest that Haditha is bad for the image of the U.S. Military if things are as alleged. Why would a U.S. Congressman continually try to keep that potential damage front and center in the press for all to see? Only one reason - partisan politics.

Murtha is trading on his credibility as a veteran to attempt to redirect the blame for this incident to the Bush administration's wartime policy. By doing so, he is inflicting harm on the Marine Corps in addition to that already done, and by extension the United States. You say his intention was not to "deride our servicemen", but what else can this mean:

Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood. And that's what the report is going to tell.

Now, this may be true in essence, but the fact is, that statement is a judgment that Murtha has no business pronouncing. He has no idea if this is true or not, but it neatly fits his previous pronouncement that we "cannot win" in Iraq, and helps promote his "this is all the Bush administration's fault" meme. By the way, if you want to know where I got that quote, read the rest of the article here. Kind of makes my point for me.

Murtha is hurting this country, in my opinion, by rushing to judgment and pronouncing the Marines at Haditha guilty before the investigation is published or the courts martial even convened. That is wrong, unethical and absolutely unpatriotic. I think if Murtha were in the field, he would want his men given the benefit of the doubt until all facts were known and published. But he is not, and has apparently forgotten what that's like.

Finally, Murtha blesses us with this gem:

"Who covered it up, why did they cover it up, why did they wait so long?" Murtha said on "This Week" on ABC. "We don't know how far it goes. It goes right up the chain of command."
This, in my judgment, is his biggest ethical lapse. He has no proof of the statement above, but in order to tar the administration with the broad brush he is bringing out, he absolutely needs to get the blame out of the enlisted and J.O. ranks and up to Rumsfeld. He is accusing men, some of whom have been Marines longer than he was, of a criminal conspiracy without a shred of solid evidence. What a patriot!
I must admit I'm a little s... (Below threshold)
Randy:

I must admit I'm a little shocked at the certainty in Murtha's statements. I fear he must be very certain of his facts to speak so boldly. You hawks must be very frustrated, because virtually EVEYTHING you have been saying since before the war has turned out to be utter hogwash, while the critics who you so roundly demonize, like Scott Ritter, Howard Dean and now John Murtha have consistantly been right. The only place where y'all can maintain your alternate version of reality is on Fox News, The Lush Rimburger show or on blogs like this one, where the truth only occasionally intrudes when you get a link from Salon.

JannyMae: Sorry, schultzie,... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

JannyMae: Sorry, schultzie, I can burn Murtha now for convicting these Marines of, "cold-blooded murder," in the public square, before the evidence is evaluated. Even if the Marines turn out to be guilty, he was still wrong to shoot off his big mouth to score cheap political points.

If he is fairly representing the investigations findings, which I believe he is as his comments jive with all the other hints so far, then I think he has done nothing wrong. In fact, he has simply given us information that he is privy to early, which is a positive in my book.
-------------------------------------------------
I am surprised that you could make such a statement. What happened to the American principle of "innocence until proven guilty". There is an investigation still going. Any decent person would wait until the investigation has been completed and the verdict made public. A congressman who doesn't understand that basic concept is incompetent at best.

The truth is that the casualty in Iraq is very low compared to other conflicts so far. That 's a fact. I haven't heard Murtha talk about the positive accomplishments of the US military in Iraq. That 's even more truthful information. Why hasn't Murtha done that? Based on facts, Murtha as a representative of the liberal wing of the Dem party seems to be interested only in taking every missteps of the military to smear our effort in Iraq.

The bottom line is that Murtha didn't behave as a decent person much less as a congressman.

http://powerlineblog.com/archives/014244.php


Well the fact that there's ... (Below threshold)
Duke Cunningham:

Well the fact that there's been a coverup is apparent. The military was giving reparations money to the victims families while at the same time claiming the deaths were due to a roadside bomb. This doesn't look good.

What's really missing the p... (Below threshold)
Wizwrong:

What's really missing the point is this post, this blog and the people still backing this war and the people that actually believe the Bush administration didn't mislead everyone. First it was all OMG we are going to be nuked and it turned out they had nothing. Then it was all hey we are going to create a democracy in Iraq. And you guys were all like Oh Golly WOW!! Gee Whiz Really?? Bush is so great and the liberals are so dumb!!! That was your attitude Now you complain and complain how everyone is seeing it wrong when the facts are clear that what is being established in Iraq is either civil war or a theocracy. Either way it has been a lie to achieve a failure. So why do you idiots continue to support an administration that did this to our country? Has your anger at leftist idiots so blinded you that you can no longer see straight and see the truth?

Rep. Murtha is a combat vet... (Below threshold)
groucho:

Rep. Murtha is a combat veteran with close ties to the highest levels of the current military. His suggestions and comments on the Iraq war thus far have been thoughtful, reasoned and based in large part on his concerns for the well being of our troops in general. No amount of name-calling, attempts to discredit him, or questioning his motives will change the fact that he, along with the majority of Americans from both sides of the poitical fence, has the correct stance on this issue.

What will the hysterical finger pointers and myopic bottom feeders say when the facts come down on Murtha's side?

What all the anti-Murtha po... (Below threshold)
Mikkel:

What all the anti-Murtha postings overlook is the fact that when you are an active in the military you cannot say anything against executive decisions even if you think they are horrible. From everything I've read, Murtha has acted as the go between for the military and Congress/White House since Reagan. It was great how the White House countered the retired generals call for Rumsfeld's head by parading out current generals that are obligated to back him even if they don't want to. This rule is necessary in my opinion to make sure that the civilian branches of government control the military, but back door outlets are necessary in any executive/military setting as a check. When Murtha says our soliders are being stretched to the breaking point and this atrocity is a result of that, I don't think he is coming to that conclusion, I think high level officers are. I could be wrong, but seriously, when you've been in the House as long as he has, it's a dead end. He's not going for "political" points, he has no where to go.

Here is the link again,<br ... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Here is the link again,
Note that the military investigator noticed the discrepancy and initiated an investigation early before the Times reported. If they tried to cover it up, they wouldn't have started the investigation. This is much better than the way the press has behaved so far.

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/007097.phpThe Haditha investigation started earlier than previously thought after a Marine Corps investigator noticed key discrepancies between the physical evidence and the reports from the Marines involved. The New York Times reveals that the Pentagon had already referred the matter to criminal investigators weeks before Time Magazine reported the alleged atrocities at the end of March, from a presentation of the allegations by the magazine:

To the liberal posters: all... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

To the liberal posters: all we ask of you and of Murtha is to give our soldiers the same treatment as they would have given to Osama Bin Laden. If it is too much for a congressman like Murtha to give the benefit of the doubt until the investigation is completed, then we cannot expect much from the Dem party. Why is it so difficult?

That was your attitude Now ... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

That was your attitude Now you complain and complain how everyone is seeing it wrong when the facts are clear that what is being established in Iraq is either civil war or a theocracy.
--------------------------------------------------
Is this a truth or a lie?

To the liberal posters: ... (Below threshold)
shingles:

To the liberal posters: all we ask of you and of Murtha is to give our soldiers the same treatment as they would have given to Osama Bin Laden.

Cause everyone knows The Left looooooooooooooooves Bin Laden.

You sir, clearly are a parody.

To the liberal posters: all... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

To the liberal posters: all we ask of you and of Murtha is to give our soldiers the same treatment as they would have given to Osama Bin Laden.

Cause everyone knows The Left looooooooooooooooves Bin Laden.

You sir, clearly are a parody.
---------------------------------------------------
Are you a parody?
This is a fact: Howard Dean as a representative of the Dem party made a statement that he would pre-judge Osama Bin Laden. Why can't Murtha and the folks on the left do the same in this case?

The left may not love Bin Laden, but the left may hate Bush and the US military more than Bin Laden given their actions. Are you happy now? Or do you want to dispute this?

Bush approval rating Dixie... (Below threshold)
Go Dixie!:

Bush approval rating Dixie Chicks #1 on the charts!!!

The troops should be given the benefit of the doubt. But the war is already a disaster. Strict islamists are taking over in the center and southern areas of the country all thanks to the Decider. Way to go Bush. You are establishing an Islamist state. Isn't that what you Wizbang folks wanted? Oh wait you thought it would be a democracy didn't you... so stupid. Wake up and smell the coffee little wizzies. The president lied to us and now we have a huge mess on our hands. Your defense of this administration is sounding more tired and absurd every day.

Truzenzuzex: Your argument ... (Below threshold)
jschultz:

Truzenzuzex: Your argument would be fine if Murtha were not a Democrat Congressman repeatedly critical of the administration's handling of the war. He has deliberately attempted to spin the facts into an indictment not of the people involved, but of the conduct of the war itself ... Why would a U.S. Congressman continually try to keep that potential damage front and center in the press for all to see? Only one reason - partisan politics.

The fact that this type of incident reflects poorly on the conduct of the Iraq War, which naturally reflects poorly on the Pres. and his supportive party, is neither here nor there. Yes, this incident will be used to score partisan political points, but EVERYTHING today that can be used in such a way is. That is the result of the hard ball, divisive politics we've been playing for the last twelve years and it is a bit late to scream "FOUL!" now. Murtha is keeping this type of issue front and center because it does illustrate his view that we can't win militarily and that our military is sufferring because they face an impossible situation that the executive is doing little to redress.

PS - If you show me a person who believes the entire Iraq operation has been conducted well, I'll show you a top Bush administration official who has trouble admitting reality.

Truzenzuzex: Now, this may be true in essence, but the fact is, that statement is a judgment that Murtha has no business pronouncing. He has no idea if this is true or not, but it neatly fits his previous pronouncement that we "cannot win" in Iraq, and helps promote his "this is all the Bush administration's fault" meme.

It is a true statement in essence and it more than likely isn't his conclusion, but one of the conclusions of the investigation to which he is privy!!! He says exactly that in the statement: "And that's what the report is going to tell"!!!!!

Truzenzuzex: By doing so, he is inflicting harm on the Marine Corps in addition to that already done, and by extension the United States ... Murtha is hurting this country ...

For the love of God, can you rightists please stop trying to play this tired patriotism card?! First off, speaking the truth is a higher calling than blind patriotism! Trying to stop a war that you believe is hurting the country is an act of pure patriotism!

Truzenzuzex: This, in my judgment, is his biggest ethical lapse. He has no proof of the statement above, but in order to tar the administration with the broad brush he is bringing out, he absolutely needs to get the blame out of the enlisted and J.O. ranks and up to Rumsfeld.

Actually there is signficant proof of a coverup, so much so that the marines have an entire seperate investigation into that as well. We have had two reports from the Marines that have both been retracted: first that the IED killed 15 civilians too, second that the civilians were killed in a firefight and now we have "no official comment." I think you are reading too much into his words to assume that he means this cover up goes all the way to the top (i.e. - Rumsfeld). At the very least, there is strong evidence that the reporting officers did not tell the truth initially.

LoveAmerica Immigrant: I am surprised that you could make such a statement. What happened to the American principle of "innocence until proven guilty". There is an investigation still going. Any decent person would wait until the investigation has been completed and the verdict made public. A congressman who doesn't understand that basic concept is incompetent at best.

Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. EVERYONE is allowed to form their own opinion to the actual truth of the matter based on the evidence they see. Most people don't believe that OJ is innocent, but the courts found him not guilty. That still doesn't mean he didn't kill his wife -- it just means a jury didn't convict him of doing it. Murtha is certainly allowed to voice his opinion that the evidence he has seen from the investigation leads him to believe that this was a massacre conducted over the course of several hours.

(hands over ears) "I... (Below threshold)
Jeff Gannon:


(hands over ears) "I can't hear you! I can't hear you! making progress! turned a corner! Freedom is on the march! Murtha loves Bin laden!"

Innocent until proven guilt... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. EVERYONE is allowed to form their own opinion to the actual truth of the matter based on the evidence they see. Most people don't believe that OJ is innocent, but the courts found him not guilty. That still doesn't mean he didn't kill his wife -- it just means a jury didn't convict him of doing it. Murtha is certainly allowed to voice his opinion that the evidence he has seen from the investigation leads him to believe that this was a massacre conducted over the course of several hours.
-------------------------------------------------
Murtha is allowed to form his own opinion. However, the information he has is CONFIDENTIAL information of an investigation. A decent person having access to such privileged information would keep it to himself until the investigation is completed and the results made public. Murtha didn't do the investigation himself. The military did the investigation. So at least as a courtesy, he should have waited for the military to make it known through the appropriate channels. I would expect a congressman to have the judgement and the character to display such a restraint.

For the love of God, can you rightists please stop trying to play this tired patriotism card?! First off, speaking the truth is a higher calling than blind patriotism! Trying to stop a war that you believe is hurting the country is an act of pure patriotism!
-------------------------------------------------
Why hasn't Murtha speak about all the positive accomplishments of the US military in Iraq? Half-truth is another form of lying. Why only exaggerate the bad while suppressing the good? Just give you an example: the US did some bad things since it is imperfect. So only talk about the bad things the US did while ignoring the enormous good the US has brought to the world. This is called "propaganda"

CAn we speak the truth about the left now?

What's really missing th... (Below threshold)

What's really missing the point is this post, this blog and the people still backing this war and the people that actually believe the Bush administration didn't mislead everyone.

Or still believe in the mission.

First it was all OMG we are going to be nuked and it turned out they had nothing.

Actually, it was: That futhermucker booted inspectors for the last time. His failure to comply with UN resolutions was reason enough.

Then it was all hey we are going to create a democracy in Iraq. And you guys were all like Oh Golly WOW!! Gee Whiz Really?? Bush is so great and the liberals are so dumb!!!

Do you suppose we should have let the place rot? (I actually agree with you on that btw... bomb the water treatment plans, all police and government facilities, and any industry the place has, then leave.)

Now you complain and complain how everyone is seeing it wrong when the facts are clear that what is being established in Iraq is either civil war or a theocracy.

A civil war is a good thing in the long run. besides, we should go back to destroying that place so utterly that whatever government DOES form would take DECADES to project power beyond it's borders.

Either way it has been a lie to achieve a failure. So why do you idiots continue to support an administration that did this to our country?

1st and foremost: We CAN NOT lose the war in IRAQ. It is IMPOSSIBLE. Not when we can bomb them into the stoneage 3 times over. What we CAN lose is the will of THIS NATION to do anything. We can slowly start sabotaging the soldiers on the ground, letting them wither and die like we did in Viet Nam.

Has your anger at leftist idiots so blinded you that you can no longer see straight and see the truth?

I'm not angry. Hell, I am not even mildly upset.

The fact that this type of ... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

The fact that this type of incident reflects poorly on the conduct of the Iraq War, which naturally reflects poorly on the Pres. and his supportive party, is neither here nor there. Yes, this incident will be used to score partisan political points, but EVERYTHING today that can be used in such a way is. That is the result of the hard ball, divisive politics we've been playing for the last twelve years and it is a bit late to scream "FOUL!" now. Murtha is keeping this type of issue front and center because it does illustrate his view that we can't win militarily and that our military is sufferring because they face an impossible situation that the executive is doing little to redress.
-------------------------------------------------
Thanks for admitting that Murtha is simply interested in partisan politics and not the truth per se. So we shouldn't expect much from the Dem politicians when it comes to the matter of national security and the security of other men/women still in the war zone?

You conveniently ignored the fact that the military initiated the investigation itself based on the discrepancy it discovered. And here people are still trying to justify the disgraceful behavior of a congressman interested in partisan politics.

The troops should be given ... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

The troops should be given the benefit of the doubt. But the war is already a disaster. Strict islamists are taking over in the center and southern areas of the country all thanks to the Decider. Way to go Bush. You are establishing an Islamist state. Isn't that what you Wizbang folks wanted? Oh wait you thought it would be a democracy didn't you... so stupid. Wake up and smell the coffee little wizzies. The president lied to us and now we have a huge mess on our hands. Your defense of this administration is sounding more tired and absurd every day.
-------------------------------------------------
This the typical lie from the liberal left. Why are you so interested in making Iraq out to be a failure? Don't you want to see the Iraqui people successful in building a democracy there? So you still want Saddam in power with the oil-for-food corruption in place (for the benefits of France, Russia, China, Germany and of course Saddam Hussein himself)?

There are some of the most ... (Below threshold)
T Rey:

There are some of the most hatenest people and name callin' like nobody's business, in here. It seems to me that at the end of the day civilans were murdered. If the decision is that American soldiers are to be allowed to murder civilians, so be it, what are we really to do about a "decision", but please call it what it is. Don't create other arguments or try to explain it away. It is Americans murdering Iraqi civilians in Iraq.

I just say let's deal wi... (Below threshold)
Paul:

I just say let's deal with the facts, not the rantings of some blowhard politician

It's a shame you didn't value the "wait-and-see" mentality back before the invasion when the inspectors were in Iraq. Face it, you lot are happy to shoot first and ask questions later when it's serving your cause, while happily rallying around a CNN reporter when it doesn't.

End of the day, these marines will get a fair trial and the truth will come out. I see Murtha's motivations having less to do with enhancing his own career, and more to do with ensuring that this story did not get swept under the rug, which you lot and the Marine Corp. would obviously prefer.

LoveAmerica: Thanks for adm... (Below threshold)
jschultz:

LoveAmerica: Thanks for admitting that Murtha is simply interested in partisan politics and not the truth per se.

Murtha is a politician. The political atmosphere has been made partisan over the last twelve plus years by divisive rhetoric on both sides. He tried to work under the radar to consult with the executive to get his voice heard and to influence policy. The executive shut him down and out. The only way left for him to be effective at his job was to go public in a big way and make a big impact. This man is doing his job, which is to affect public policy in the way he feels best. The fact that his goals are now publically in conflict with the President's is a result of the policital atmosphere and Bush shutting him out. Bush pushed Murtha into this game and now all the right wing nuts think he is the anti-Christ because he is playing the only game left to remain relevant. So yes it is partisan politics.

Now, how the hell do you think he is not speaking the truth?!!! All the evidence we do know is supporting what Murtha told us, which is that this looks like an atrocity against civilians by US marines. The fact that the truth of this incident is lining up with Murtha's political goals which are different than the president's is simply the way reality has played out. Get over it.

LoveAmerica: So we shouldn't expect much from the Dem politicians when it comes to the matter of national security and the security of other men/women still in the war zone?

Huh?! You really are all over the place! How do you connect Murtha's comments on this incident to a lack of proposals on national security? Murtha already proposed what he thought was best for the Iraq situation. Unfortunately, his views never got a fair hearing as the republicans turned it into a sham proposal and stripped it down to a false "cut and run" or "stay and fight" choice.

How does Murtha espousing the truth of an atrocious incident in anyway hurt the security of our men and women remaining in Iraq? Really, from where do you get these crazy connections?!

LoveAmerica: You conveniently ignored the fact that the military initiated the investigation itself based on the discrepancy it discovered.

Oh gee, I guess I should give them an f'ing medal for doing their jobs and trying to investigate a reported atrocity!

LoveAmercia: And here people are still trying to justify the disgraceful behavior of a congressman interested in partisan politics.

Actually, I'm only trying to justify his graceful behavior because I see him being unfairly attacked by the troglodytes of the right wing nut factory. If you guys hadn't so grossly over reacted and tried to Swift Boat Murtha I would have taken his report with a grain of salt and waited to see the outcome. Now I feel compelled to defend him against the likes of you ... oh well ...

It seems to me that at t... (Below threshold)

It seems to me that at the end of the day civilans were murdered.

yes. And those responsible should be punished.

run run run run LEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP to the next sentence:


If the decision is that American soldiers are to be allowed to murder civilians, so be it, what are we really to do about a "decision", but please call it what it is.

If that decision was made, no investigation would be taking place. The military should not tolerate the type of behavior these marines are charged of, and it doesn't.

"It's a shame you didn't va... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

"It's a shame you didn't value the "wait-and-see" mentality back before the invasion when the inspectors were in Iraq. Face it, you lot are happy to shoot first and ask questions later when it's serving your cause, while happily rallying around a CNN reporter when it doesn't."

PRECISELY !

These village idiot Neo"CONS" would have us believe there were no deliberate civilian casualties in Vietnam, Korea, etc at the hands of American troops....if they could get away with it ! If they didn't have the PROOF slapping them in the face, as it was in that prison in Iraq, or in Guantanamo ! How many more innocent civilians should we allow to be murdered at the hands of these uneducated pigs should we continue to allow ?

How many more innocent c... (Below threshold)

How many more innocent civilians should we allow to be murdered at the hands of these uneducated pigs should we continue to allow ?

How many you got?

" How many you got? "... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

" How many you got? "

Hopefully, the next victims of these uneducated pigs will be your parents, your wife, YOUR children !

Gosh the marines were on go... (Below threshold)
madmatt:

Gosh the marines were on good behavior when they were with an embedded reporter...big surprise!

The two captains and a lieu... (Below threshold)

The two captains and a lieutenant colonel that have been relieved of duty might have diplomas that state otherwise.

By the way why don't you ri... (Below threshold)
madmatt:

By the way why don't you right wing loons ever raise questions about where the officers were? Once again it is the low end of the totem pole getting the blame when the blame should go up the ladder to the scum who can't manage their troops!

Oh, and by the way :<... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

Oh, and by the way :

"The military should not tolerate the type of behavior these marines are charged of, and it doesn't."

It DOESN'T ? The why the extraordinary efforts to distort & fabricate the events of the day by the upper echelons of Marine Brass ? Only when they were caught RED-HANDED....with thier hands in the cookie jars, so to speak....do they finally decide to conduct a REAL investigation !

WHAT A CROCK !

When did Times magazine lau... (Below threshold)

When did Times magazine launch the report?

March 27 is the times repor... (Below threshold)

March 27 is the times report.

Military investigation began in febuary according to NYT.

jschultz:<blockquote... (Below threshold)
Truzenzuzex:

jschultz:

Yes, this incident will be used to score partisan political points, but EVERYTHING today that can be used in such a way is. That is the result of the hard ball, divisive politics we've been playing for the last twelve years and it is a bit late to scream "FOUL!" now. Murtha is keeping this type of issue front and center because it does illustrate his view that we can't win militarily and that our military is sufferring because they face an impossible situation that the executive is doing little to redress.

Oh, you mean "it's OK because everyone does it", eh? That is known as the "Golden Rationalization", and it is about as unethical an argument as there is in the world.

PS - If you show me a person who believes the entire Iraq operation has been conducted well, I'll show you a top Bush administration official who has trouble admitting reality.
Nobody believes the war has been mistake-free, and neither was any other past war. However, the conclusion that "we cannot win" is both absurd and cowardly, in my opinion. Do you and Murtha have a right to that conclusion? You bet, and welcome. But don't expect me to agree.
It is a true statement in essence and it more than likely isn't his conclusion, but one of the conclusions of the investigation to which he is privy!!! He says exactly that in the statement: "And that's what the report is going to tell"!!!!!
"More than likely"? Equivocation isn't very becoming on someone who is happy to draw sweeping conclusions from few verifiable facts. Don't you find it the least bit strange that he purports to know the conclusions of a report that hasn't been written yet?
For the love of God, can you rightists please stop trying to play this tired patriotism card?! First off, speaking the truth is a higher calling than blind patriotism! Trying to stop a war that you believe is hurting the country is an act of pure patriotism!
Oooh, an emotional outburst. Look, I am not questioning anybody's patriotism. People who have great love for the United States still sometimes do it harm. That doesn't make them unpatriotic - just foolish. Same for the Marine Corps. I for one have no doubt Murtha thinks as you do, that the nation will be better off if the Bush administration is continually damaged, even if the nation and our armed forces suffer a little in the bargin.

The fact is, neither have to happen and the truth could still come out, but it would deprive the left of more Bush bashing and self-loathing. Apparently, not a trade off many on the left are willing to make.

At the very least, there is strong evidence that the reporting officers did not tell the truth initially.
Finally, a fact! My God, I'm stunned. I had to wade through 70 lines of text to get to one fact we do know.

From this fact, and other statements and reports many of which are not facts (yet) and Murtha's statements purporting to be facts, leftist are concluding a massacre occured and we needn't wait for the rest of the story.

Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. EVERYONE is allowed to form their own opinion to the actual truth of the matter based on the evidence they see.
Sure, the old "opinions are like a$$ holes" saying applies. So does the "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."
Now, how the hell do you th... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Now, how the hell do you think he is not speaking the truth?!!! All the evidence we do know is supporting what Murtha told us, which is that this looks like an atrocity against civilians by US marines. The fact that the truth of this incident is lining up with Murtha's political goals which are different than the president's is simply the way reality has played out. Get over it.
--------------------------------------------------
THe evidence I have so far: Murtha is only interested in bad news about the US military in Iraq. He must have been briefed about the good things they have done over there as well. He is not speaking out on those things at all. So he is simply interested in amplying the bad while ignoring all the good things they have done. In my book, that 's trying to paint in as a bad light as possible. That would emboldent the terrorists even more in trying to provoke our men and women by hiding in civilian villages. I experienced this first hand in my own country before I came to the US. That 's propaganda in my book. I would expect an honest person would lay out all the facts.



LoveAmerica: You conveniently ignored the fact that the military initiated the investigation itself based on the discrepancy it discovered.

Oh gee, I guess I should give them an f'ing medal for doing their jobs and trying to investigate a reported atrocity!

This is much better than simply trying to tell half-truths like Murtha to score political points and you are still trying to praise him for doing his jobs. This is far better than the Dems and the liberals in the MSM who have been suppressing the truth about all the good things the military has done in Iraq.

Using your standard, the military simply did its job in a very difficult situation. Then to be intellectually honest, we have to conclude that Murtha and the liberal left has been disgraceful in not even doing their job to report the whole truth.


Actually, I'm only trying to justify his graceful behavior because I see him being unfairly attacked by the troglodytes of the right wing nut factory. If you guys hadn't so grossly over reacted and tried to Swift Boat Murtha I would have taken his report with a grain of salt and waited to see the outcome. Now I feel compelled to defend him against the likes of you ... oh well ...

Surprised that you are willing to smear the veterans like the Swift Boat veterans who told the truth about Kerry.

Using your own standard, I felt compelled about telling the truth about the liberal left who has been complicit during the cold war when the communists murdered hundreds of millions of people. When the left succeeded in hijacking the VN war, millions people died in the Cambodian genocide and the left was silent. Half a million people died on the South China sea as boat people. NOw they are trying to do the same to IRaq. I felft compelled when people like Murtha tried to tar our military with the mistakes of the few. Oh well ...

" When did Times magazine l... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

" When did Times magazine launch the report? "

How would I know ? All I know is that THIS is the Marines FIRST attempt at fabrication :

The first account of the killings there was a false or erroneous statement issued the next day, Nov. 20, by a U.S. Marine spokesman from a Marine base in Ramadi: "A U.S. Marine and 15 civilians were killed yesterday from the blast of a roadside bomb in Haditha. Immediately following the bombing, gunmen attacked the convoy with small-arms fire. Iraqi Army soldiers and Marines returned fire, killing eight insurgents and wounding another."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06147/693671-84.stm

And then when the facts didn't fit THAT scenario, THIS was thier next fabrication :

"The Pentagon has said little publicly. What is known is that a military convoy hit a roadside bomb, killing one Marine. The Marine Corps had initially attributed 15 civilian deaths to the bombing and a firefight with insurgents, eight of whom the Marines reported had been killed."


Again...their story changed as more of the truth slipped out from thier tiight little facist hands !


"When the left succeeded in... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

"When the left succeeded in hijacking the VN war, millions people died in the Cambodian genocide and the left was silent "

That's what HAPPENS to collaborators ! That's what happened to NAZI collaborators in france after WWII....why should you think it should be different with any OTHER collaborator ?

And mark my words.....that's what will happen to the IRAQI collaborators....and rightfully so !

The captain had a post abou... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

The captain had a post about how the military initiated the investigation due to the discrepancy between the report and the evidence. This should speak highly of the military as an institution. It investigated itself. THis is much better than the liberal MSM and the Dems who are simply interested in half-truths and even fabrications to attack Bush.

The military initiated the investigations weeks before the Times report. Given the track record of the partisan liberal press, it is no surprise that they would seize the opportunity to smear the military. That 's why I felt compelled to speak the truth about the dishonesty of the liberal MSM since the military is risking their lives to fight the enemy in Iraq, they would also have to contend with the propaganda war conducted against them by the liberal left in this country.

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/007097.php

"When the left succeeded in... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

"When the left succeeded in hijacking the VN war, millions people died in the Cambodian genocide and the left was silent "

That's what HAPPENS to collaborators ! That's what happened to NAZI collaborators in france after WWII....why should you think it should be different with any OTHER collaborator ?

And mark my words.....that's what will happen to the IRAQI collaborators....and rightfully so !
--------------------------------------------------
Are you wishing and hoping to help a US failure in Iraq so that the terrorists would have a free hand at genocide as the leftist communists did in Cambodian and Vietnam?

Reuters is just now reporti... (Below threshold)
Peter:

Reuters is just now reporting:
> A preliminary military inquiry found evidence
> that U.S. Marines killed two dozen Iraqi civilians
> in an unprovoked attack in November,
> contradicting the troops' account

I am afraid that everyone has to face facts. Murtha was reporting the truth. There is no good end to this horrible expensive misadventure in Iraq. At best, we can only hope that it has a quick end.

No one can force democracy onto unwilling recipients, at the end of a gun barrel. Our soldiers are being ordered to do a job at which they cannot possibly succeed, and they are being ground up in the process.

It is sick to see so many d... (Below threshold)

It is sick to see so many deluded apologists for mass murder.

The military should not tolerate the type of behavior these marines are charged of, and it doesn't.
Posted by: Yogimus at May 31, 2006 02:22 PM

Except when they do. If there wasn't photographic evidence this story would have never come to light. How many times has something like this happened and swept quietly under the rug?

" The captain had a post ab... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

" The captain had a post about how the military initiated the investigation due to the discrepancy between the report and the evidence. This should speak highly of the military as an institution. It investigated itself. THis is much better than the liberal MSM and the Dems who are simply interested in half-truths and even fabrications to attack Bush. "

Oh, give me a break ! STILL posting Blog horseshit and portraying it as "facts " ? C'mon son ! Even YOU cannot be so ignorant !

How would I know ?<b... (Below threshold)

How would I know ?
Google. Hell, I managed to find it and I am one of those "uneducated pigs" you so love to hate.

On the 27th of March.
The investigation started in febuary. (The investigation that would lead to punitive action)


Which leads us to the conclusion that the times was NOT the catalyst to the investigation, and the military was self policing.

" Are you wishing and hopin... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

" Are you wishing and hoping to help a US failure in Iraq so that the terrorists would have a free hand at genocide as the leftist communists did in Cambodian and Vietnam? "

The only "terrorists" I see here is the ones willing to shoot a 4 year old girl in the back of the head.....Or torture & abuse bound prisoners....Or kidnap pregnant mothers & threaten them with violence in order to induce thier spouses to "trun themselves in" ....

THOSE, my boy.....are the terrorists....the REAL terrorists....

And, you got it.....the American soldier !

" The captain had a post ab... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

" The captain had a post about how the military initiated the investigation due to the discrepancy between the report and the evidence. This should speak highly of the military as an institution. It investigated itself. THis is much better than the liberal MSM and the Dems who are simply interested in half-truths and even fabrications to attack Bush. "

Oh, give me a break ! STILL posting Blog horseshit and portraying it as "facts " ? C'mon son ! Even YOU cannot be so ignorant !
---------------------------------------------
It means that you have no arg to make. He refered to your favorite paper the NYT. YOu wouldn't bother to read what is contrary to your view. Thanks for another example about the oh fascist left.

Truzenzuzex: Oh, you mean "... (Below threshold)
jschultz:

Truzenzuzex: Oh, you mean "it's OK because everyone does it", eh? That is known as the "Golden Rationalization", and it is about as unethical an argument as there is in the world.

Since when is this an ethical argument? I thought we were talking about politics. It's actually called "living in reality." Now I know a lot of you right wing nuts have major problems in dealing with reality and this is just another example of that, so I won't hold it against you. But if you want to rail against partisan politics, then you need to remove the plank from your own eye before you complain about the mote in the democrats' eye. The poisonous atmostphere that exists in Washington today is almost solely the responsibility of the republican smear machine that has been in full swing since '94. I guess the real problem is that the republicans finally realize they are in for some of their own medicine in a real way when they get knocked out of the house come this fall ... personally, I can't wait -- you live by the sword you die by the sword ...

Truzenzuzex: "More than likely"? Equivocation isn't very becoming on someone who is happy to draw sweeping conclusions from few verifiable facts. Don't you find it the least bit strange that he purports to know the conclusions of a report that hasn't been written yet?

Oh, I'm sorry, allow me to give my close personal buddy John a call and ask him specifically as to whether that was his own conclusion that he drew from the evidence he saw or if it was a conclusion of the investigation. I threw that qualifier in there specifically because I don't know the exact answer to that question, but that is a distinction with nary a difference -- it is hair splitting and I'm more interested in fundamental truths rather than technicalities.

LoveAmerica: Surprised that you are willing to smear the veterans like the Swift Boat veterans who told the truth about Kerry.

God, please don't get me started on those mf'ers. The real truth about Kerry is that he volunteered to serve in Vietnam, his job became one of the more dangerous ones over there, he saw pretty extensive combat and was commended on several occasions. Then he came back from the war disillusioned and fought to have it end. That pissed a lot of people off and that is the whole truth of the Swift Boaters -- a lot of pissed off vets who saw a lot of their buddies die for a lost cause in an impossible situation who could channel their anger at one of their own who spoke out to end the senseless carnage.

" Are you wishing and hopin... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

" Are you wishing and hoping to help a US failure in Iraq so that the terrorists would have a free hand at genocide as the leftist communists did in Cambodian and Vietnam? "

The only "terrorists" I see here is the ones willing to shoot a 4 year old girl in the back of the head.....Or torture & abuse bound prisoners....Or kidnap pregnant mothers & threaten them with violence in order to induce thier spouses to "trun themselves in" ....

THOSE, my boy.....are the terrorists....the REAL terrorists....

And, you got it.....the American soldier !
--------------------------------------------------
Yes, we have an investigation and prosecution of these soldiers if crimes were committed. We don't claim that they will go to heaven with 72 virgins waiting for them.

Thanks again for providing another example of the propaganda service the fascist left is doing on behalf of the jihadist terrorists (as they did for the genocidical communists during the cold war)

2 words:Televised ... (Below threshold)

2 words:

Televised beheadings.

Truzenzuzex: Don't you find... (Below threshold)
jschultz:

Truzenzuzex: Don't you find it the least bit strange that he purports to know the conclusions of a report that hasn't been written yet?

You don't think that preliminary versions of the investigation report have been floating around for a while now? You think they've been briefing legislators without having a damn substantial report written yet? You really don't live anywhere near close to reality do you?

Also note that the investig... (Below threshold)

Also note that the investigation I speak of is the one that will lead to judicial action. It is extremely likely that there was already a previous report that triggered this investigation.

God, please don't get me st... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

God, please don't get me started on those mf'ers. The real truth about Kerry is that he volunteered to serve in Vietnam, his job became one of the more dangerous ones over there, he saw pretty extensive combat and was commended on several occasions. Then he came back from the war disillusioned and fought to have it end. That pissed a lot of people off and that is the whole truth of the Swift Boaters -- a lot of pissed off vets who saw a lot of their buddies die for a lost cause in an impossible situation who could channel their anger at one of their own who spoke out to end the senseless carnage.
-------------------------------------------------
The swift boat veterans also volunteered to serve in VietNam (many were longer than Kerry). Many of the swift boat veterans were injured more badly than Kerry (a scratch) and were in more danger. Also the POWs were in prison for years in North VN. These many veterans were lying and only Kerry was telling the truth. Amazing how you are willing to smear all these veterans when it doesn't fit your agenda.

You don't think that prelim... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

You don't think that preliminary versions of the investigation report have been floating around for a while now? You think they've been briefing legislators without having a damn substantial report written yet? You really don't live anywhere near close to reality do you?
--------------------------------------------------
Murtha must have also been briefed about all the progress the US military has made in Iraq. He could have gone over there to see for himself. Yet he is only interested in speaking half-truths. I wonder why people can ignore such obvious fact.

This is Lorie Bryd 's secon... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

This is Lorie Bryd 's second thread on Hadith..Both threads have looked for the best possible face on a otherwise horrific incident..The first was 'the pesumption of innocence' stand. ..the second an eye-witness account of a embedded CNN reporter weeks before the incident, and the hosts editorializing that Murtha is "slandering" marines....Needless to say, another top conservative blog that Wizbang normally links to in these matters, is seeing the story and Murtha's contribution far differently Haditha Makes Abu Ghraib Look Like A Picnic "

Steve, Haditha is a... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Steve,
Haditha is a real atrocity and that 's why it is far worse than the faked scandal of Abu Ghraib, which the left has been hyping in their effort to smear the US military. THe link you posted is a few days ago. Here is the recent link about the military initiated the investigation itself based on the discrepancy. They even used Drone pictures in the investigation. This is much better than the half-truths by people like Murtha or the continuing distortions and fabrications of the liberal press.


Pentagon Understood Haditha Contradictions, Ordered Investigation

Look at the Dems in general, they wouldn't even care about the contradictions or the damage done to the country as long as they can attack Bush and the US military.

LoveAmerica: The swift boat... (Below threshold)
jschultz:

LoveAmerica: The swift boat veterans also volunteered to serve in VietNam (many were longer than Kerry). Many of the swift boat veterans were injured more badly than Kerry (a scratch) and were in more danger. Also the POWs were in prison for years in North VN. These many veterans were lying and only Kerry was telling the truth. Amazing how you are willing to smear all these veterans when it doesn't fit your agenda.

The only veterans that should comment on Kerry's service in Vietnam were people that worked directly with him. That disqualifies the opinions of most of the Swift Boaters. Then you need to realize that the only reason these guys came forward and were so pissed was NOT because Kerry was a poor officer and faked all his awards (both of which are demonstrably false claims proved by his evalutations), but rather because he became so anti-war after he went back to the states. They felt betrayed by one of their own and that alone explains all their claims. Questioning someone else's commendations thirty years after the fact is complete bullshit.

Also remember that all of the guys who served directly under him, save one I believe (there's always someone who won't like you), thought that Kerry was an excellent commander, were glad to have served under him and believed he deserved all of his commendations.

The only veterans that shou... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

The only veterans that should comment on Kerry's service in Vietnam were people that worked directly with him. That disqualifies the opinions of most of the Swift Boaters. Then you need to realize that the only reason these guys came forward and were so pissed was NOT because Kerry was a poor officer and faked all his awards (both of which are demonstrably false claims proved by his evalutations), but rather because he became so anti-war after he went back to the states. They felt betrayed by one of their own and that alone explains all their claims. Questioning someone else's commendations thirty years after the fact is complete bullshit.

Also remember that all of the guys who served directly under him, save one I believe (there's always someone who won't like you), thought that Kerry was an excellent commander, were glad to have served under him and believed he deserved all of his commendations.
-------------------------------------------------
IT was proven that his trip to Cambodia was at least an exageration if not an outright lie. Why didn't he release all his military record as promised?

Anyone who are fellow commanders of other boats in the same incident can comment on the incident and his service in VN. ANy POWs can comment on his claim about the US military as Genghis Khan etc... and how it had demoralized them and provided the communists with the propaganda they needed.

All these veterans had far more service than Kerry ever did. They are much more honorable than he was. When he made his service the centerpiece of his presidential campaign, they had every right to speak out about his service in VN.

Kerry has been lying about the release of all his record.

BTW, Kerry can sue the lead... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

BTW, Kerry can sue the leader of the Swift Boat group for slander if they lied about his record in VN. O'Neil actually challenged Kerry to sue him in court.

Anyone who seriously puts t... (Below threshold)
groucho:

Anyone who seriously puts the credibility of the swift boat mob above John Kerry is not worth having a conversation with. Period.

Just read the Reuters article referenced in an above post. It appears that Rep Murtha, once again, was right on; in other words, he was NOT making some irresponsible rush to judgement. It would appear he was pretty well sourced on this and knew exactly what he was talking about, a quality so rare in Washington these days many have trouble recognizing or acknowledging it. Not that the truth would ever get in the way of a good old fashioned mudslingin', name callin',partisan attack that has been this thread.

Steve Crickmore,I ho... (Below threshold)
Lorie Byrd:

Steve Crickmore,
I hope that you are still lurking here and can explain to me how either piece I have posted on Haditha has done anything to put a best possible face on the situation. I have stated that evidence points to the claims being true and that if that is the case those responsible should be punished to the fullest extent and then some. I just think that Murtha has slandered the Marine Corps as a whole with some of his comments and that even in the case of the Marines in question, he should not pronounce them guilty until they have been given due process.

As for Captain Ed's post that you linked, I agree with almost every word of it and nothing I have posted is contrary, except for that which I will post at the end of his quote. For the benefit of those who have not read it, this part in particular goes along with what I have said:

"Addendum: This post isn't about John Murtha, but I know people want to discuss it, so the comment section is open for that topic as well. I will note that in my original post, I acknowledged that Murtha may have had the story correct -- but that he should have held his commentary until it came out, and that he should not have used it as fodder for his anti-war rhetoric. Murtha politicized it, which was wrong. He also accurately described the conclusions, and that is unfortunate, and I'm sure that Murtha feels the same way about that."

The only thing I don't agree with Captain Ed on is that Murtha feels the same way. Murtha may hate that it happened, but some of the things he has said lead me to believe he is enjoying the opportunity to once again use the media spotlight to disparage our men and women in uniform. I think that is disgusting and don't think it is appropriate even if every allegation is proven correct.

Anyone who seriously puts t... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Anyone who seriously puts the credibility of the swift boat mob above John Kerry is not worth having a conversation with. Period.
---------------------------------------------------
In fact, the reverse should be true: anyone who puts the credibility of John Kerry above the swift Boat veterans and the POWs is not worth having a conversation with. Period.

Anyone who is willing to smear these swift boat veterans while making a big deal of a few months of service in VN by John Kerry is ignorant of the facts at best. Again, why care about the contradictions if it interferes with your own version of reality.

Just read the Reuters artic... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Just read the Reuters article referenced in an above post. It appears that Rep Murtha, once again, was right on; in other words, he was NOT making some irresponsible rush to judgement. It would appear he was pretty well sourced on this and knew exactly what he was talking about, a quality so rare in Washington these days many have trouble recognizing or acknowledging it. Not that the truth would ever get in the way of a good old fashioned mudslingin', name callin',partisan attack that has been this thread.
------------------------------------------------
Groucho either didn't follow the thread at all or just ignore it. EVen jshultz admitted that Murtha is simply interested in partisan politics and half truths.

Murtha is well sourced simply because he is a congressman who was briefed on the investigation along with other congressmen. But the others had the decency to wait, but Murtha was not.

I don't care if it is true.... (Below threshold)
Republican to the Corp:

I don't care if it is true. As far as I'm concerned if the U.S. Marines want to shoot every man woman and child in Iraq, they have the absolute RIGHT to do so. Who cares about a bunch of insignificant ragheads? We're fighting the Global War on Terror here, or have you forgotten 9/11??? What about what the Iraqis did to us on that fateful day? Too many bleeding hearts and too few bleeding Iraqis if you ask me. I think President Bush is the greatest president who ever lived. So if any of you traitors and terrorist supporters want to whine about a bunch of dirtbag civilians who are anything but "innocent" go right ahead. You're just playing right into the hands of our enemies. You know what I say about Iraqi civilians? "Kill them all, and let Allah sort 'em out!" Semper Fi, boys! Go get 'em. The only good Iraqi is a DEAD Iraqi.

LoveAmerica Immigrant clai... (Below threshold)
Peter:

LoveAmerica Immigrant claims
> Murtha is simply interested in partisan politics and half truths.

No, you are quite wrong about that. Murtha believes that our military has completed its mission in Iraq. He says that Iraq cannot be won militarily. He says it's time to re-deploy our troops from Iraq.

So "LoveAmerica", why do you hate freedom for US troops?

If you think otherwise, what would you change in Iraq, because "stay the course" is just dragging everyone further down ($9Bn/month at present).

Republican to the Corp asks... (Below threshold)
Peter:

Republican to the Corp asks:
> have you forgotten 9/11???
> What about what the Iraqis did to us on that fateful day?

Seriously? Are you serious?

Iraq and the Iraqi people had *no* part in the 9/11 attack on the USA. None. Zero. The 9/11 attack was engineered by a radical group of Saudis, led by Osama Bin Laden (whose family are business partners with George Bush senior).

Unfortunately, President Bush and the Vice President and their advisors were able to mislead many people who do not pay attention, into supporting an unprovoked attack on a nation that was no threat to us. That attack and occupation is now disasterously off course, with no prospect of ever calming the place down.

LoveAmerica Immigrant clai... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

LoveAmerica Immigrant claims
> Murtha is simply interested in partisan politics and half truths.

No, you are quite wrong about that. Murtha believes that our military has completed its mission in Iraq. He says that Iraq cannot be won militarily. He says it's time to re-deploy our troops from Iraq.
------------------------------------------------
No it is not. He was briefed about all the good things the US military has accomplished in Iraq. ANd he is only interested in the bad things and getting out in front of the investigation effort for selfish political interest. EVen jshultz can see that (at least he is more objective)!


So "LoveAmerica", why do you hate freedom for US troops?

If you think otherwise, what would you change in Iraq, because "stay the course" is just dragging everyone further down ($9Bn/month at present).
--------------------------------------------------
The troops want us to stay in Iraq until the job is done. We are drawing down in any case. The cost of the IRaq war is easily dwarfed by the total cost of continuting containment policy and the cost of playing defensive against the terrorists. I had a post on the cost already. So what is the cost of not going to Iraq and keeping Saddam Hussein in power with the oil-for-food corruption in place? Do you really know?

You're a flag waving moron,... (Below threshold)
Dom:

You're a flag waving moron, along with all the idiots that support you.

When are you going to realize that whatever you think,
along with whatever your stupid government tells you.

Will be proven to be bullshit once the truth comes out.

I'm sure god sees the blood on your hands, for supporting death, torture and war.

Feel free to reply or e-mail or whatever pathetic bullshit response you might have. I'll just wipe my ass with it.

Dork
P.S. The email is fake so spare me your typing.

If you think otherwise, wha... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

If you think otherwise, what would you change in Iraq, because "stay the course" is just dragging everyone further down ($9Bn/month at present).
-------------------------------------------------
We are making great progess. One thing I would change is to allow the Iraqui to take care of the internal security problems. IS the left willing to let the Iraqui security force to play rough with the terrorists and insurgents or will it take every opportunity to cry atrocities? I wonder what would happen if the people on the left are vocal about the real atrocities of the terrorists blowing up schools, hospitals, children, women etc... in Iraq. What would happen if they get in front to strongly condemn the terrorists and the minority Baathist insurgents day in and out?

I'm sure god sees the blood... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

I'm sure god sees the blood on your hands, for supporting death, torture and war.
----------------------------------------------
Thank you for speaking the truth about the liberal left. The blood of hundreds of millions killed and millions more tortured by communists is on their hand. Now they are doing the same for the terrorists and tyrants like Saddam Hussein or Taliban.

Just like jshultz said, I am compelled to speak the truth abount the willingness of the left to sell out the poor and oppressed in the world just to further their own agenda.

LoveAmerica claims:>... (Below threshold)
Peter:

LoveAmerica claims:
> 1. The troops want us to stay in Iraq until the job is done.

No, that is not true.

A poll taken among US troops in Iraq recently showed that an overwhelming majority of 72% of American troops serving in Iraq think the U.S. should exit the country within the next year, and more than one in four say the troops should leave immediately.
Search for "zogby iraq troop poll" to confirm this.

In any event, US troops are deployed where ordered, and do not follow orders only after voting on it.

> 2. We are drawing down in any case.

No, that is not true.

As the situation in Iraq deteriorates further, the Pentagon announced yesterday (May 30) it had dispatched 1,500 reinforcements to Iraq was only the latest indication that US hopes for a major troop drawdown this year were fading fast.

US military officials said two armored battalions had been ordered in from Kuwait to back up US and Iraqi forces battling to tame the western Al-Anbar province, a bastion of Iraq's insurgency.

Google for Pentagon press releases to confirm this.

> 3. The cost of the IRaq war is easily dwarfed
> by the total cost of continuting containment policy
> and the cost of playing defensive against the terrorists.

No, this is not true.

The Iraq war costs the American public $9 Billion each month, and costs are rising, and the President now says that we will be there stretching into the forseeable future. Worse than the tremendous waste of your money and mine, is the waste of servicemen's lives. More than 2500 now, and with no prospect of success at all.

The costs of sanctions against Iraq were very low, and there were essentially no marginal costs at all.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the cost of playing defensive against the terrorists". By attacking Iraq we have turned a state which was formerly free of Al Qaeda into a recruiting and training station for Muslim insurgents. And furthermore, they are winning (which is why we have to rush reinforcements in).

It is not in my nature to insult anonymous people on websites, but I do urge you to read a bit more (I recommend news.google.com) and become a bit better informed about American foreign policy under President Bush.

Peter

Iraq and the Iraqi people h... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Iraq and the Iraqi people had *no* part in the 9/11 attack on the USA. None. Zero. The 9/11 attack was engineered by a radical group of Saudis, led by Osama Bin Laden (whose family are business partners with George Bush senior).
------------------------------------------------
Now suddenly Saddam Hussein was an angel and have no ties to the terrorists at all. The Iraqui people wanted to be free of Saddam. Why do you want to keep him in power still

Unfortunately, President Bush and the Vice President and their advisors were able to mislead many people who do not pay attention, into supporting an unprovoked attack on a nation that was no threat to us. That attack and occupation is now disasterously off course, with no prospect of ever calming the place down.
Again, you claimed that Bush should have treated the Dems (like Clinton, Rockfeller, Dashle etc ...) as liars as they talked about the threat of WMD posed by Saddam regime.

THe Iraqui has been making progress with the new gov. Their economy is better. The usual suspects (the terrorists, the Baathist insurgents ...) want to hijact the progress. Even Al Quaeda admitted that they are losing in Iraq. I wonder why people on the left are still wishing for failure in Iraq when even Al Quaeda admitted that they are losing.

A poll taken among US troop... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

A poll taken among US troops in Iraq recently showed that an overwhelming majority of 72% of American troops serving in Iraq think the U.S. should exit the country within the next year, and more than one in four say the troops should leave immediately.
Search for "zogby iraq troop poll" to confirm this.
-------------------------------------------
This poll has been debunked already. Zogby was one of the least reliable polls in 2004. This poll was a joke.


In any event, US troops are deployed where ordered, and do not follow orders only after voting on it.
------------------------------------------------
The majority of the military supported Bush and the mission in Iraq


> 2. We are drawing down in any case.

No, that is not true.
-----------------------------------------------
Bush and Blair just talked about it last week!


As the situation in Iraq deteriorates further, the Pentagon announced yesterday (May 30) it had dispatched 1,500 reinforcements to Iraq was only the latest indication that US hopes for a major troop drawdown this year were fading fast.

US military officials said two armored battalions had been ordered in from Kuwait to back up US and Iraqi forces battling to tame the western Al-Anbar province, a bastion of Iraq's insurgency.

Google for Pentagon press releases to confirm this.
-------------------------------------------------
THis is rotation troop to replace other battalions . That's all. Again this is another example of the dishonesty of the liberal press in reporting. This is just the latest example of a long list of proven lies by the liberal media.

> 3. The cost of the IRaq war is easily dwarfed
> by the total cost of continuting containment policy
> and the cost of playing defensive against the terrorists.

No, this is not true.

The Iraq war costs the American public $9 Billion each month, and costs are rising, and the President now says that we will be there stretching into the forseeable future. Worse than the tremendous waste of your money and mine, is the waste of servicemen's lives. More than 2500 now, and with no prospect of success at all.

The costs of sanctions against Iraq were very low, and there were essentially no marginal costs at all.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the cost of playing defensive against the terrorists". By attacking Iraq we have turned a state which was formerly free of Al Qaeda into a recruiting and training station for Muslim insurgents. And furthermore, they are winning (which is why we have to rush reinforcements in).

It is not in my nature to insult anonymous people on websites, but I do urge you to read a bit more (I recommend news.google.com) and become a bit better informed about American foreign policy under President Bush.
-------------------------------------------------
Reading your post, I can see that you are not very well informed if you simply reads news.google.com.

ABout the cost: the recent estimate has the cost of the war about $410B and the cost of containment at about $400B, roughly the same. The cost of playing defensive against the terrorists is this: you have to protect every mall, every port, every school etc... in this country since the terrorists need to succeed only once. We cannot even control the border right now. The best strategy is to take the fight to them. Remember one lone shooter can paralyze the economy of the whole Northern Virginia region. This cost is easily in the trillions. This doesn't include the cost of having Saddam in power and the oil-for-food corruption.


You should get better informed yourself before making statements about "being informed".

So what do Ms. Damon's reco... (Below threshold)
artemus:

So what do Ms. Damon's recollections have to do with this? Jeffrey Dahmer's neighbors probably said he was a nice guy sometimes.

LoveAmerica says:> N... (Below threshold)
Peter:

LoveAmerica says:
> Now suddenly Saddam Hussein was an angel

I disagree with that statement. Saddam was an evil dictator. I think that President Reagan made a serious mistake in shipping him arms and chemical weapons in the early 1980's. I think that the current secretary of defense, Donald Rumsfeld, acted evilly in negotiating the arms shipments to Saddam in 1983.

However, Saddam was a problem for the Iraqi people, not for America to solve.

> and have no ties to the terrorists at all.

At last, you have managed to assert something truthful. And I agree with you. And the bipartisan 9/11 Commission agrees with you. Saddam had no ties to Al Qaeda or other terrorist organizations.

If you think otherwise, please post credible links in support. You won't, because you won't be able to.

I pointed out:> the ... (Below threshold)
Peter:

I pointed out:
> the Pentagon announced yesterday (May 30) it had
> dispatched 1,500 reinforcements to Iraq


LoveAmerica claims:
> THis is rotation troop to replace other battalions . That's all.
> Again this is another example of the dishonesty of the liberal press in reporting.

No, you are mistaken. The Stars and Stripes newspaper (I hope you don't include them as part of the "dishonest liberal press") refers to these troops as a "call-forward force" that is being "added" to Iraq.

President Bush and Prime Minister Blair were widely expected to report troop reductions in Iraq at their recent joint press conference. However, as the situation in Iraq continues to worsen, they were not able to do so. And the President has been forced to send in reinforcements.

If you think this is inaccurate, please provide links to credible sites that support your view. You won't of course, because you are wrong.

Peter

LoveAmerica says:> N... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

LoveAmerica says:
> Now suddenly Saddam Hussein was an angel

I disagree with that statement. Saddam was an evil dictator. I think that President Reagan made a serious mistake in shipping him arms and chemical weapons in the early 1980's. I think that the current secretary of defense, Donald Rumsfeld, acted evilly in negotiating the arms shipments to Saddam in 1983.

However, Saddam was a problem for the Iraqi people, not for America to solve.
-------------------------------------------------
THis is another typical spin by the left and you fell for it. This was during the time when the Soviet Union was expanding into Afghanistan and the ME in general. Also Iran held hostages our diplomats in 1979 and attempted to dominate the region just as they are doing right now.
Do you know that FDR and Churchill shaked hands with Stalin and formed alliance with him in fighting against Hitler?

The link between Iraq and Alq has been shown in the most recent batch of translated documents from Iraq. Wonder why the people on the left has been so silent about this.

> and have no ties to the terrorists at all.

At last, you have managed to assert something truthful. And I agree with you. And the bipartisan 9/11 Commission agrees with you. Saddam had no ties to Al Qaeda or other terrorist organizations.
-------------------------------------------------
The commission said no such thing. You are so ill-informed when you wrote the above sentence. Do you know that Saddam openly supported Hamas terrorists against Israeli women and children? He gave the money to the family of the homicide bombers. The link to AlQ can be found in the recent translated doc from Iq. I am surprised that you cannot find it in Google. Is Google that bad?

No, you are mistaken. The S... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

No, you are mistaken. The Stars and Stripes newspaper (I hope you don't include them as part of the "dishonest liberal press") refers to these troops as a "call-forward force" that is being "added" to Iraq.

President Bush and Prime Minister Blair were widely expected to report troop reductions in Iraq at their recent joint press conference. However, as the situation in Iraq continues to worsen, they were not able to do so. And the President has been forced to send in reinforcements.

If you think this is inaccurate, please provide links to credible sites that support your view. You won't of course, because you are wrong.
--------------------------------------------------
ONe battalion part of the rotation plan from Kuwait. Don't you know that the Iraqui prime minister announced that there will be significant drawdown of US troops in the next year. Also the Iraqui troops are taking more combat operations now.

You can do a google yourself to find out the truth if you are interested. If you can't, then let me know and I will help you.

LoveAmerica claims:>... (Below threshold)
peter:

LoveAmerica claims:
> The commission said no such thing.

You are agin mistaken, my friend.

Please check this news report.
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46254-2004Jun16.html

Then read section 10.3 of the 9/11 report.

Let me spell it out for you: "There is no credible evidence that Saddam Hussein's government in Iraq collaborated with the al Qaeda terrorist network on any attacks on the United States" according to a new staff report released on June 16 2004 by the 9/11 commission investigating the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

Please post links to credible evidence that support your beliefs. You won't of course. You won't be able to because you are wrong.

Let me spell it out for you... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Let me spell it out for you: "There is no credible evidence that Saddam Hussein's government in Iraq collaborated with the al Qaeda terrorist network on any attacks on the United States"
--------------------------------------------------
They didn't say that Iraq didn't have any ties with AlQ and other terrorist organizations! They simply said they don't have any evidence like a photos showing Osama signing a pact with Saddam to attack America. Are you denying the tie of Saddam with the Hamas terrorist?

LoveAmerica -- please focus... (Below threshold)
peter:

LoveAmerica -- please focus on the reinforcements that have been rushed to Iraq. Please provide some links that support your belief.

If you can post some credible links that support your belief that troop reinforcements are actually part of a drawdown, I will change my mind.

You have avoided posting links. Please support your argument with something more than just faith. Show us all the facts. Where are the links supporting your view?

I have provided the links supporting my position. Why don't you believe Stars and Stripes?

Thanks,

Peter

Can you post your link agai... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Can you post your link again?

"Ok asshole, since you brou... (Below threshold)
lazerlou:

"Ok asshole, since you brought it up. I returned from 8 overseas deployments on various US warships. Each and everyone had banners displayed expressing the very same sentiment, no matter what that mission was.

That banner had absolutely nothing to do with Iraq per se and only signified the ships successfull return to homeport."

Now that is the funniest thing I've seen written in a long long time. I suppose the President "lands" a plane on each ship too?


A little point of order here: slander only exists when the defamatory statement is false. Why can't a war dissenter highlight the ugliness of war without you wingnuts getting all your panties in a bunch and calling him a traitor.

Then again, i suppose we are dealing with people who have such problems thinking clearly they condemn John Kerry's military service, yet extol GWBs.

Here is the link for you</p... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Here is the link for you

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/3/24/153651.shtml

Kuwait serves as a base for the Iraqui operations. Troops moving in and out of Kuwait is part of the normal operation. Just like when there was an election, there were more troops added. Nothing unusual about that. You conveniently ignore the target number of reduction from 133000 to 100000. Even Murtha "predicted" significant draw down in the next year! Why, because he was briefed by the military.

slander only exists when th... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

slander only exists when the defamatory statement is false. Why can't a war dissenter highlight the ugliness of war without you wingnuts getting all your panties in a bunch and calling him a traitor.
--------------------------------------------------
So the swift boat veterans brought out the truth about Kerry lying about his trip to Cambodia for example. THese people have far more military service compared to Kerry. GWB didn't run on his military service. Kerry did.

I still wonder why the left was so silent about the ugliness of communism during the cold war: hundreds of millions killed and millions more tortured. Why are they so silent about the senseless killing of the innocents by the terrorists for example?

LoveAmerica - thank you for... (Below threshold)
Peter:

LoveAmerica - thank you for posting the link.

Unfortunately, that news article does NOT support your claim that troop reductions are taking place, and that rushing reinforcements to Iraq is somehow part of a draw-down.

If you read the story that you linked to, you will see that the Chairman of the JCOS says that the 700 extra troops sent in, will "soon" return to Kuwait. So that raises the numbers now, and leaves the numbers the same if the troops return. There is no draw-down.

Even worse, that story was published on May 25. But the Pentagon only announced the latest batch of reinforcements on May 30. Here is how the International Herald Tribune (part of the "leftist dishonest conspiracy"?) reported the news today May 31:

"The top U.S. commander in Iraq has decided to move reserve backup troops now deployed in Kuwait into the volatile Anbar Province in western Iraq to help quell a rise in insurgent attacks there, two American officials said.

Although some soldiers from the 3,500-member regular army brigade in Kuwait have moved into Iraq in recent months, the commander, General George Casey Jr., has decided to send in the remainder of the unit after consultations with Iraqi officials in recent days, the officials said Monday.

The confirmation that the number of U.S. forces in Iraq would grow came after a day of soaring violence in Baghdad."

See www.iht.com/articles/2006/05/30/news/troops.php

So again, if you have ANY evidence to support your claim that troop levels are being reduced in Iraq, please present it. You won't be able to. There isn't any evidence that says troop levels are being reduced in Iraq.

You are wrong. Troop levels are being reinforced in Iraq. They are being reinforced because the situation is worsening. The situation is worsening because there is no military answer to the political problems that President Bush has created in Iraq.

And you and I and all the other American taxpayers are paying the $90 BILLION/month bill for this failed policy. And our servicemen are still dying . And we are sending them there in greater number s in support of policies that have failed, are failing, and always will fail.

LoveAmerica Immigrant:... (Below threshold)
Lazerlou:

LoveAmerica Immigrant:

The left isn't silent about those matters whatsoever.

However, what distinguishes this case from those you cite is that these murders were done in our name by our government. You see the distinction?

We live in a democracy see, and what our goverment does is supposed to be in our best interests. So talking about what our government does has a unique significance to the political process that talking about communist and terrorist murders simply does not.

Not too hard for the simple mind to grasp, I hope?

And to call Kerry a liar for not knowing exactly where he was in relation to the border is a bit of a stretch, huh? But I suppose someone like you probably ate up every ridiculous ugly accusation the swift boaters for poltical assasination spewed forth. Shameful.

You are wrong. Troop levels... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

You are wrong. Troop levels are being reinforced in Iraq. They are being reinforced because the situation is worsening. The situation is worsening because there is no military answer to the political problems that President Bush has created in Iraq.

And you and I and all the other American taxpayers are paying the $90 BILLION/month bill for this failed policy. And our servicemen are still dying . And we are sending them there in greater number s in support of policies that have failed, are failing, and always will fail.
-------------------------------------------------
Again, you are falling for the same spin by the left. Kuwait troops are part of the IRaqui operation. Do you know Kuwait was the main base of the Iraq war when Turkey didn't allow the US military to use their ports? The US hasn't sent any new troops from Europe or the US.

What is the long term solution to the problem of terrorism? Democracy is the best solution we can see. That 's the political solution to a political problem. The Iraqui just formed their new gov with the participation of even the Sunnis. The usual suspects (the terrorists and the Baathists and the IRanian cronies...) want to hijack the process. All they can do is senseless killing of the Iraqui women and children. THat 's a sign of weakness, not strength. THey simply blew up people for propaganda purpose and the liberal media in the West simply play along.

Our casualy so far is 2500. MAny more died in just one military excercise in WWII. That many die in a month in VN. EVen Al Quaeda admitted that they are losing in Iraq.

So what do you want to do with the terrorists? I proposed to let the Iraqui to play hardball with them. Will the left support that or simply want to tie their hands down? What do you want to do?

NOte that this is from AP (... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

NOte that this is from AP (we what kind of bias AP has). EVen then let me explain to you in case you don't understand. THis is simply of the three battalions served as reserve in case we need to rotate them in for the religious holiday. And AP is trying to make a big deal out of it as usual. The stock market doesn't go up or down in a linear fashion. The trend is what imporatant.

http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/ap/2006/03/15/ap2597116.html
"General Casey may decide he wants to bulk up slightly for the pilgrimage," Rumsfeld said at the time. "And we're continuing to pull troops down. And we're continuing to shift our weight, as we've said, between the combat patrol aspects of it, over to the training and the equipping and providing the enablers."

Hundreds of people have been killed since the Feb. 22 bombing of a Shiite mosque in Samarra, creating concern that the country may be tipping toward civil war.

The mechanized infantry battalion that is being sent to Iraq is one of three from the 2nd Brigade, 1st Armored Division that originally were scheduled to deploy to Iraq but were instead held in Kuwait as a standby force in the event Casey decided he needed extra troops. It's not clear how long the battalion will remain in Iraq, the officers said.

And to call Kerry a liar fo... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

And to call Kerry a liar for not knowing exactly where he was in relation to the border is a bit of a stretch, huh? But I suppose someone like you probably ate up every ridiculous ugly accusation the swift boaters for poltical assasination spewed forth. Shameful.
---------------------------------------------------
Kerry is simply a self-serving liar. I don't know why you continue to defend him. The swift boat veterans had far more military service than Kerry. They didn't go around proclaiming their military service as Kerry did. I would take these many veterans and POWs over Kerry 's credibility any
day.



The left isn't silent about those matters whatsoever.
However, what distinguishes this case from those you cite is that these murders were done in our name by our government. You see the distinction?

You are right. The left was not silent. THey were complicit and had their hands in helping the communists win in VN for example.

We are a democracy. That 's why we have investigation and impeachment of presidents. America is not perfect, but it is the best country on earth. We fought the communists in Asia and elsewhere for our national interest and for the poor/oppressed people in the world at the same time. WE don't do it right all the times, but a lot more often than not. It is simply disgraceful simply to tar AMerica with its mistakes while ignoring the far greater atrocities of the enemies. All we ask is the left be objective in treating AMerica as well as it would treat the its enemies. They couldn't even do that.

"Then again, i suppose we a... (Below threshold)

"Then again, i suppose we are dealing with people who have such problems thinking clearly they condemn John Kerry's military service, yet extol GWBs."

Failing to get all excited about a supposedly relaxed attitude about attending guard weekends is not extolling GWB's military service. Who extols GWB's military service? Failing to condemn is not worship, no matter how much some people seem to think so.

As for Murtha. What is missed amid the Murtha worship is that it doesn't "support the troops" to soften the blow by explaining that our soldiers are not responsible because they were stressed. It's actually a bit like saying that a retarded person isn't responsible because of reduced capacity.

War is stressful. Combat *obviously* is stressful. Military discipline isn't about getting people to shoot, it's about getting them to stop. Otherwise we've got nothing but a barbarian horde. Murtha is reenforcing *your* prejudice that the military and the men and women in the military operate with reduced capacity. This is not "supportive" of the troops and it can't be twisted so that people who pride themselves on their discipline and professionalism will see it as anything other than a gross insult.

LovesAmerica asks:> ... (Below threshold)
Peter:

LovesAmerica asks:
> So what do you want to do with the terrorists?

Well, the very first thing we should do, is stop creating more and more of them. Stop killing innocent civilians. Stop bullying Iraqis.

Withdraw our army of occupation. We've been in Iraq for more than 3 years. I think that's enough time. We are not seen as liberators or friends or protectors. We are seen as targets.

> I proposed to let the Iraqui to play hardball

I don't understand how you can profess to "Love America" and at the same time embrace unAmerican values like torture and murder.

Let me tell you about another way: we stop trying to bully a reluctant nation into loving us. We start trying to persuade, to incent, to negotiate, to help, to spread decent American values. Not just in Iraq, but throughout the Middle East including Palestine.

And we put the emphasis back on catching Osama Bin Laden. Why does President Bush say he "doesn't care" about Osama Bin Laden? There are 2500 dead New Yorkers who provide 2500 reasons why the President was wrong to let Osama Bin Laden go free.

Now guys, I hate these libe... (Below threshold)
Stars n stripe:

Now guys, I hate these liberal hate-mongers as much as the next American... but I think we're beat here. This is going to be bad... and get worse. I think our boy Bush just might go down for this one. I'll keep believing we did the right thing in Iraq tho.. even tho the facts say otherwise for now...

Can one of you tough guys p... (Below threshold)
Robert:

Can one of you tough guys please come to my house tomorrow around 10:30 AM and kill my mailman?

That bastard showed up with a $120 electric bill for me today.

" This is going to be bad..... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

" This is going to be bad... and get worse. I think our boy Bush just might go down for this one. "

And the buck won't stop THERE ! Unfortunately, the actions of this petty little facist dictator is going to drag a lot of people down with him....A lot of GOOD people !

And yes, there ARE some "good" republicans....but the taste of Bush has fouled the mouth of the American people so badly, that they are going to dump a lot of decent Republican politions just to remove that foul taste from thier mouths !

" That bastard showed up wi... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

" That bastard showed up with a $120 electric bill for me today. "

You're shitting me, right ? I haven't seen a $120 monthly electic bill in 15 years !

Last month ? $274 for the month's service !

Lorie Bryd. .. Well, Your m... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

Lorie Bryd. .. Well, Your most recent POSTED COMMENTS have been aliitle more hard hitting much more human, than the conservative blogs you linked to in your updatres.. such as Desler's Democracy Project.... "If anything untoward happened at Haditha, it was at worst a small exception"...Brings to mind ARMY STAFF OFFICER Colin Powell's original defense of the brutal Vietnamese civilian treatment charges, "After (a) cursory investigation, Powell drafted a response on Dec. 13, 1968. He admitted to no pattern of wrongdoing. Powell claimed that U.S. soldiers in Vietnam were taught to treat Vietnamese courteously and respectfully. The American troops also had gone through an hour-long course on how to treat prisoners of war under the Geneva Conventions, Powell noted.
"There may be isolated cases of mistreatment of civilians and POWs," this by no means reflects the general attitude throughout the Division...In direct refutation of this portrayal " Powell concluded, "is the fact that relations between American soldiers and the Vietnamese people are excellent."

The question again arises in 2006 how isolated and exceptional this case is.. I have no idea, but I know I've heard precious little about winning 'the hearts and minds' as we did in the first few weeks of the invasion, and so much more about the how unstinting and neverending the war against terrorism in Iraq is for the security of the freedom loving people back home, that some Marines may have taken this very unconditionally and snapped.

Peter pansy its time to unb... (Below threshold)
CurlyLarryMoe:

Peter pansy its time to unbundle your thong and admit that your boy Scroitus climungus is the one who let Sin Laden slime away! You deceptive little imp.

Steve,I do have an i... (Below threshold)
Lorie Byrd:

Steve,
I do have an idea about how isolated such behavior is because I have quite a few friends either presently or recently in the Marine Corps including my husband and family members in the Army. I would hope that all would know this already, but this is isolated behavior. Maybe if so many puffed up politicians with their reputations to save were not running around trashing them, you and everyone else would know that too.

As for the "hearts and minds" talk, I still hear it plenty, especially from those describing the progress they are making in Iraq through the milblogs. There are countless stories I have read on the milblogs and received via email from those whose family members are in Iraq and tell them about the kids they are winning over with something as simple as candy or a soccer ball and a smile. They tell the stories of the men and women they meet who thank them. They talk about the schools and hospitals and other facilities that we rebuild, resulting in connections to those hearts and minds.

Try the milblogs. You will get an entirely different perspective.

" I do have an idea about h... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

" I do have an idea about how isolated such behavior is because I have quite a few friends either presently or recently in the Marine Corps including my husband and family members in the Army. "

Is that so ? Well, Lo & behold....late breaking news coming from Iraq this evening :

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - U.S. forces killed two Iraqi women - one of them about to give birth - when the troops shot at a car that failed to stop at an observation post in a city north of Baghdad, Iraqi officials and relatives said Wednesday. Nabiha Nisaif Jassim, 35, was being raced to the maternity hospital in Samarra by her brother when the shooting occurred Tuesday.

Jassim, the mother of two children, and her 57-year-old cousin, Saliha Mohammed Hassan, were killed by the U.S. forces, according to police Capt. Laith Mohammed and witnesses.

The U.S. military said coalition troops fired at a car after it entered a clearly marked prohibited area near an observation post but failed to stop despite repeated visual and auditory warnings.

"I was driving my car at full speed because I did not see any sign or warning from the Americans. It was not until they shot the two bullets that killed my sister and cousin that I stopped," he said. "God take revenge on the Americans and those who brought them here. They have no regard for our lives."

He said doctors tried but failed to save the baby after his sister was brought to the hospital.

The shooting deaths occurred in the wake of an investigation into allegations that U.S. Marines killed unarmed civilians in the western city of Haditha.

Isolated ? When these stories of civilian massacres are hitting the American public at the rate they are....only the most NAIVE could believe that these atrocities are "isolated" !

C'mon, with George Bush's "Shoot first, ask questions later" style of leadership....Why expect the uneducated pigs that serve in the military of the United States conduct themselves any differently ?

If Im over there and somebo... (Below threshold)
virgo:

If Im over there and somebody blows thru the warnings at full speed Im gonna blow them away to You idiot! this isnt truth or dare!

Lorie -- I believe you whe... (Below threshold)
Peter:

Lorie -- I believe you when you say that these are isolated incidents of US soldiers murdering unarmed civilians.

I believe that the great majority of our troops are trying to do an impossible job to the best of their ability. When some of them fail, and murder Iraqis out of revenge or fear or boredom or whatever, it brings us all down.

When our President re-writes the rules to allow us to torture; when our President sanctions prisoners being sent to brutal regimes with the intention of torturing them even more brutally; when our President renounces the long established Geneva Conventions for the treatment of POWs; when our President spies on all domestic phone calls, and misrepresents it; when our President locks up enemies for years on end with no charges, no trial, no legal help; when all these things are done in the name of the American people in support of a foolish unwinnable never-ending mission...

... it is not really offset by any number of footballs, or candy given, or schools repainted.

It's a negation of every decent thing that America and Americans have stood for in the past two centuries. I'd like more people to take a look at this, and really think about it.

I'm old enough to remember when the Soviets attacked and occupied Afghanistan, and how we objected mightily to that, and cancelled our participation in the 1980 Olympic Games because of the evil Soviet misdeed.

I'm having a really hard time seeing how our unprovoked attack on and 3-year-but-unending occupation of Iraq is any different. Except we are obviously in Iraq because of its strategic importance (oil) and the Russians were in Afghanistan because it was exporting revolution into neighboring Russian provinces.

Let me know what you think about the big picture here.

Peter

The fact that you would ref... (Below threshold)
Lorie Byrd:

The fact that you would refer to soldiers shooting at a speeding car going through a checkpoint ignoring signals to stop another "atrocity" just shows you have no idea what those in the military do on a daily basis.

"If Im over there and someb... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

"If Im over there and somebody blows thru the warnings at full speed Im gonna blow them away to You idiot! this isnt truth or dare! "

What makes you think there really WAS any type of warning ? After all, the Marines were more than willing to lie about the atrocities in Haditha, what makes you believe they are any more likely to tell the truth in THIS instance ?

Do tell !

So Peter? I take it Your no... (Below threshold)
virgo..:

So Peter? I take it Your not voting for Bush in 2008.

Sorry guys. I have to sign... (Below threshold)
Lorie Byrd:

Sorry guys. I have to sign off for the night. Enjoy (but please behave).

Sorry guys. I have to sign ... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

Sorry guys. I have to sign off for the night. Enjoy (but please behave).

AHHHHHHHH, I THOUGHT not !

SHESHHHHHHHH ! ! ! !

Oops! I meant to leave <a ... (Below threshold)
Lorie Byrd:

Oops! I meant to leave this link as part of my goodnight comment.

Does the story in the link above mean that we should be cutting and running from Afghanistan, because it is a lost cause that can't be won militarily? Just wondering.

Night.

" The fact that you would r... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

" The fact that you would refer to soldiers shooting at a speeding car going through a checkpoint ignoring signals to stop another "atrocity" just shows you have no idea what those in the military do on a daily basis. "

What makes you think there really WAS any type of warning ? After all, the Marines were more than willing to lie about the atrocities in Haditha, what makes you believe they are any more likely to tell the truth in THIS instance ?

Do tell !


" Sorry guys. I have to sign off for the night. Enjoy (but please behave). "

AHHHHHHHH, I THOUGHT not !

SHESHHHHHHHH ! ! ! !

Why is it these morons, when faced with inarguable logic, they take the "cut & run" approach ? Ahhhh, that's right.... They look to George Bush !

What a crookWhy li... (Below threshold)
virgo..:

What a crook

Why lie? He already admits to being at full speed and not stopping until its too late! therefore lie about what?

" Why lie? He already admit... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

" Why lie? He already admits to being at full speed and not stopping until its too late! therefore lie about what? "

What ARE you talking about ? Who's referring to the pregnant woman's BROTHER ? He doesn't HAVE the same past history of lying and fabrication that the uneducated pigs employed by the goverment of the United States do !

Whata everHow do Y... (Below threshold)
virgo..:

Whata ever

How do You know what His past history is?

The pregnant womans brother was the driver and therefore how He was driving determines what happened!

So You work for the government eh! figures.

" How do You know what His ... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

" How do You know what His past history is? "

I DON'T ! But I DO know the past history of atrocities, torture, deceit, and fabrication of the United States Military !

Oh so Your E-4... (Below threshold)
virgo:

Oh so Your E-4

" Oh so Your E-4 "... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

" Oh so Your E-4 "

Not in THIS lifetime ! I wouldn't DEMEAN myself by joining any branch of the SS service of the United States

And *this* is what passes f... (Below threshold)

And *this* is what passes for rational thought and a desire for the truth.

Fact: The military always lies.

Fact: Any time they deny being baby eating murderers they are lying. We know they are lying because they have a history of lying. We know that anyone accusing them is telling the truth because all the liars are in the military.

Fact: We demand accountability from the military so that when they make statements we know that they are lying.

Fact: We support the troops, who are just idiots too dumb to stand up to a recruiter and too morally deficient to know that eating babies is wrong. Expecting them to behave morally is expecting far too much.

Fact: Murtha, by virtue of his honorable service in the Marines must never EVER be accused of any misbehavior. To accuse someone who was an officer in the military of being anything less than %100 nobility enshrined is not allowed.

Fact: And that goes double for Kerry.

Fact: The military always l... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

Fact: The military always lies.

Fact: Any time they deny being baby eating murderers they are lying. We know they are lying because they have a history of lying. We know that anyone accusing them is telling the truth because all the liars are in the military.

Fact: We demand accountability from the military so that when they make statements we know that they are lying.

Fact: We support the troops, who are just idiots too dumb to stand up to a recruiter and too morally deficient to know that eating babies is wrong. Expecting them to behave morally is expecting far too much.

Fact: Murtha, by virtue of his honorable service in the Marines must never EVER be accused of any misbehavior. To accuse someone who was an officer in the military of being anything less than %100 nobility enshrined is not allowed.

Fact: And that goes double for Kerry.


Hey...FINALLY, someone with a rational thought !

"Hey...FINALLY, someone wit... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

"Hey...FINALLY, someone with a rational thought !"

Well, except for the "Support our troops" bit...

I don't support uneducated pigs who get thier rocks off shooting 4 year old children in the back of the head, nor do I support uneducated pigs who kidnap pregnant women in order to entrap their husbands.....

Nope, can't say I do !

Alright Lie: Japan... (Below threshold)
virgo:

Alright

Lie: Japan surrendered onboard the USS. MISSOURI bringing an end to ww2 right!

Lie: JFKerry went christmas shopping in Cambodia.

What a crock Do yo... (Below threshold)
virgo:

What a crock

Do you get off on unborn children having their brains sucked out in the modern day equivalent of Bergenbelsens known as abortion clinics?

Because if You do? there is a real disconnect between what You've said above.

goodnight all

Lorie asks:> Does th... (Below threshold)
Peter:

Lorie asks:
> Does the story in the link above mean that we should be cutting and running
> from Afghanistan, because it is a lost cause that can't be won militarily?

The term "cut and run" is insulting to servicemen who go where they are ordered, stay as long as ordered, and get out when ordered. Try rephrasing that question without the emotional baggage.

We should get out of Afghanistan as soon as Bin Laden is arrested or killed. And not a moment before. And not stay there a moment longer either. Afghanistan has little to no strategic value or purpose for the US, except it is adjacent to the part of Pakistan where Bin Laden is believed to be staying.

President Bush needs to tackle the real actual problem - a terrorist named Bin Laden caused 2500 of our civilians to be killed in New York and other places on 9/11.

I want a President who brings that terrorist to justice, and doesn't start pointless, endless, unwinnable wars in countries that posed no threat to the US before, but are now grinding up a US army for no apparent purpose. It's incredible that the President now wants to drag Iran into a fight. Solve the problems you already created before inflaming new peoples against the US!

I'm happy to answer anyone who can keep things civil. Too many people on both sides seem more interesting in having a simple match of shouting insults. Sure you blow off steam, but do you do anything thoughtful or productive?
Peter

" President Bush needs to t... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

" President Bush needs to tackle the real actual problem - a terrorist named Bin Laden caused 2500 of our civilians to be killed in New York and other places on 9/11. "

Oh, c'mon....."terrorist" ? Be honest now....who tried to assasinate whom, LONG proir to 9/11 ? Can you honestly believe that foriegn nationals should sit idly by when bombs rain down upon thier heads ? Call 9/11 more precisely (not to mention more HONESTLY) what it was......a retalitory strike in retaliation for that assasination attempt on Bin Laden's life....

I want a President who brings that terrorist to justice,

He might want to start with the terrorists who put that bullet behind that 4 year old child's ear. Or, maybe start with those in the military who are judged guilty for murder and OTHER war crimes, and not let them off with a 18 month sentences ! ! ! !

'My 12 year old Aunt was RA... (Below threshold)
LJD:

'My 12 year old Aunt was RAPED by this "American Military Man" in post-war Germany'

First of all, just because your sister married your dad, it doesn't make her your aunt.

Second, hanging around outside the PX trying to give young soldiers dollar blowjobs on payday does not contsitute rape.

Get some help.

" First of all, just becaus... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

" First of all, just because your sister married your dad, it doesn't make her your aunt.

Second, hanging around outside the PX trying to give young soldiers dollar blowjobs on payday does not contsitute rape. "

Let me guess.....

One of those uneducated pigs who serve (or served) in the American armed forces at one time or another....who get thier rocks off shooting 4 year old little girls in the back of their heads , and then molest thier corpses ?

Why am I not surprised ?

May I ask a question, here?... (Below threshold)
Martin A. Knight:

May I ask a question, here?

Why is anybody bothering to respond to Crock? WADR, why are his posts allowed to remain undeleted by the moderators?

Is it not obvious that he is insane?

" Why is anybody bothering ... (Below threshold)
What a crock !:

" Why is anybody bothering to respond to Crock? WADR, why are his posts allowed to remain undeleted by the moderators? "

AHHHHH, I see......Only the far-right Neo-con war-mongers are allowed to voice an opinion....

Is it not "obvious" how....ahem...."un-American" that viewpoint is ?

LoveAmerica.Murtha... (Below threshold)
gil:

LoveAmerica.

Murtha unlike you, is a Veteran that served his country with distinction. You are just a loud mouth that has a very idiotic idea of what it means to be an American, and a patriot.

In some of your comments I see that you are one of the "We fight them there so that we don't have to fight them here" crowd. I always have been curios about this way of thinking. Tell me, do we have a treaty with terrorists that I don't know about, that prohibits them from fighting us here AND there?

You think terrorist care about your BS theories ? And by the way, what do you think our soldiers are ; sacrificial lambs to get killed "there" so that the likes of "super patriots" like you, survive to "continue the fight" for all of us wimps..... why don't you act rather than talk, start demanding a National Draft, and then volunteer?

Hell maibe you can even draw "Mall Duty" here at home" . As you say all our malls would have to be protected if not for our soldiers in Iraq.... Brilliant, just brilliant !!!

Napoleon would have been proud of you.




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